Discussion: Education

[The Question]

I've seen alot of talk around here about the decline of education. How kids aren't interested in learning anymore, and how schools aren't doing what they should to help them learn. This has brought to my mind the Sudbury model. The Sudbury model, for those who don't know, is an educational model in which there are no grades and no required assignments or courses. The students are free to spend their day as they wish. Talking with friends, playing games and sports of various kinds, reading, watching movies, or even just doing nothing at all if that's what they feel like doing. The school is run by a weekly school meeting, modeled after town councils, in which all members of the school, staff and students alike, have one vote and an equal say in all matters. Matters of budget, employment at the school, school events, and even major disceplinary action such as suspensions and expulsions are decided upon by the entire school (or, at least those who atend the school meeting in that given week), not just the adults. The model is named for Sudbury Valley School, founded in 1968, which was the prototype of the model. Since 1968, over 40 schools following the Sudbury model have opened worldwide.

As I have made some statements about education with the Sudburry model in mind around here, and many didn't really understand where I was coming from. So, I decided to fully explain the Sudbury model, and bring it up as a topic of conversation. So, to sum up: What do you think of the Sudbury model? Do you think it's a good direction for education to go in, or a bad one?

For further information, here's Sudbury Valley's official website:

http://www.sudval.org/

Also, a nice article from Psychology Today:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20060424-000004.html

[Abaddon]

Based on what you just explained: :huh::down


what are the benefits?

[The Question]

Edit.

[CyberFaust]

never trust kids to make such decisions, at least when there's a lot of them, it simply won't end well.

[Abaddon]

eh it'd be fine if it was to supplement more formal education.

[Halcohol]

eh it'd be fine if it was to supplement more formal education.
Yeah, like if the kids got to do whatever they wanted for a class just before lunch or something, that'd be alright. But there's a reason kids don't get to make important decisions.

[Abaddon]

yeah, I'd be worried about sending those kids out into the world equipped with only the knowledge they learned themselves.

[SapphirePrima]

Is this a US accredited High school?:confused: IF it's not then wtf is the point of attending?

[The Question]

Is this a US accredited High school?:confused: IF it's not then wtf is the point of attending?

You mean, can you get a high school diploma? Yes, you can. Read the links, they give alot more information.

[Dread]

Normally don't troll around COMMUNITY much, but The Question PM'd me so I felt I'd be polite.

I'd heard of this model vaguely before, during endless searches for reference articles for college papers the past few years. An episode of The Simpsons' first season also sort of touched the subject (the episode where the teachers attribute Bart's failing grades to simply being a bored genius).

My own educational experiences are mixed. From Kindergarten to 5th grade, "elementary school" if you will, I attended a private school which had very strict rules and rigorous homework/test routines. For them, a 69% on a test was failing, not a 64% or even a 55% in some public schools. We had endless book reports and even had reports to hand in during summer recess. As an adult, I would be less than honest if I didn't acknowledge that the drilled instruction helped me throughout the rest of my education...eventually. At the time, I became "worn out" of school and my grades were slipping into the low B- range. I attended public school from 6th-8th grade ("junior high") and while it provided more "school of hard knocks experiences" (like bullying), the workload was easier and I got by. By about my sophmore year of High School, I was totally burnt out and let's just say I didn't really apply myself until college.

Was I bored genius, or just lazy? Probably both. I've since done a lot better with college, which has structure but more maturity and freedom than high school or grade school.

I believe the Sudbury model would work well with students who are self-motivated. They do exist, and possibly in higher numbers than we know. They are not the majority, though, because exceptional people are NEVER the majority. I believe in education we should have a variety of models and approaches, in which schools are tailored to meet different needs, much as other goods and services have some sort of variation (some hospitals excell at heart surgery while others pre-natal, and so on). The reality of course is there is never enough money and applying models takes time, training, and so on. I think a lot of the problems with school today are lowered standards combined with a social environment that rewards material posessions over knowledge, and in an era where people are used to quickly accessing what they desire via cable TV and the Internet, so spending years to master Math seems a bit silly. We all have our own strengths and interests but that doesn't mean a sound knowledge of basic things like English and History aren't essential.

Another problem is too many schools, I am sorry to say, employ more political standards than educational, seeing children as the next generation of voters and politicians and so thus being eager to brainwash them into conservative or, mostly, liberal viewpoints. In NYC we recently had a teacher who illegally ferried kids to Cuba and back for "lectures" (probably Pro-Communist) for years and only stopped when he was finally caught, and the principal shamed enough into acknowledging the act. But NY is a very liberal state and I am not simplistic enough to presume that in "red" states the opposite doesn't occur, where conservative schoolmasters ensure that kids spit out whatever those beliefs are, like being pro-life or Social Darwinism (the belief that poverty is caused by lazy poor people and people who are rich deserve it and are superior people), etc. Educational needs to be as objective as possible so children develop their own ideas and beliefs. Unfortunately, the reality is that objectivity is almost impossible for most people, and in America we have an adversarial nature with children. Adults feel they need to be dominated, controlled, molded like clay, and shielded from whatever the adults felt in their day was "dangerous" yet they themselves did (the ex-hippy who is a gung-ho "War on Drugs" Zealot is hardly uncommon, for instance). Children are naturally geared towards growing up eventually and rebelling against authority, and probably picking up more from the media & society than is good for them.

Also add in unions that wish to maintain a status quo and get what is best for their members, regardless of actual results or children.

The Sudbury model has it's place, but adopting it into every school wouldn't work, just like adopting any universal plan hasn't worked. Variety is a good thing, and so are honest expectations. For schools geared towards "exceptional" students who can prove via grades or whatever their motivation, it would work well. For the majority, I think it would result in many kids getting "serious" about education a bit late and being years behind. But I think the larger issue is removing the us vs. them mentality and trying to wash out political bias & unions having TOO much influence (they need to exist, but in some states, especially New York, the line between servants and masters in the Assembly is rather blurry).

[Kelly]

I think the main problems in the American education system, is the lack of desire for an education in today's youth, and a lack of respect from teacher's themselves in their career.

IF the youth of today valued education, and did not ONLY LOOK for the end result, then I believe this philosophy would work in the classroom. That is not the case in today's public classrooms, and I don't believe it will be coming to your city or mine anytime soon.

If teacher's would #1, have a amount of respect for their own career choice that they should, #2, if they had a passion for the course of study they have chosen to teach, and #3, if they had the knowledge of the curriculum they are teaching, I believe all three of those would filter out into their classroom, that would in turn, turn the kids on to the learning experience, and LEARNING and a love of the JOURNEY of learning would become the center point of that classroom. Reforming education is FAR MORE that the philosophy chosen. it is the heart of all involved. That's where the change has to take place.

[Sandman138]

Having interned as a teacher, and having a mother as a teacher, and knowing a good deal of people who are going into the career, I can tell you that most teachers start out with a great deal of respect for their career. However, working in the field, you soon realize that being a teacher is 1 part educating and 2 parts working around administrative bull****. When neither your students or your bosses respect you or your job, it makes it very hard to care about what you do.

[LouFerignoDemon]

The problem with this model is how most of the world reflects on Americans, and the thought that they're lazy. Unfortunately, this is a worldwide problem, so I can still comment.

Unfortunately, the VAST majority of the children cannot focus long enough past their own desires.

But this does have a backwards point, since there IS a time limit. They're forced to learn focus and responsibility rather harshly, given an extremely bad consequence for an extreme amount of flexibility and freedom. But for the most part, there are too many children in most schools for you to get away with.

THEN AGAIN, we're assuming this is a just "everybody" school, when it's obviously more focused against more...gifted children. Those willing to learn, and learning by decision rather than pure instruction, which is how most adults begin to learn. Several smarter students would be drawn to this, and would flourish wonderfully under this. So if THAT'S the case, then rock, rock on, because it's a win. But not for everybody.

Then of course, there are the other problems to deal with. The majority being...HOW would they learn? I'm assuming there's tutors and teachers, and if that's the case, then there must be set times. But if classes are set, then it somewhat self defeats the "wanderer" ideal. Unless they're basically just set loose in a self governing mini community where they have the option to either go to class or not.

[MaskedManJRK]

Yeah, if we had this put in all schools, I'm sure we would have even more lazy and failing students, because no one is behind them making sure that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing.

I think it would really work if it was more for the advanced students, who have proven to be able to work on their own.

[Kelly]

If no, what do you see as working with the current education system that we have in place....

If yes, what areas need the most work, what can stay in place....

In your opinion....

As an educator in the state of Texas, I have lived with the Bush "No Child Left Behind" longer than the rest of the country....

1. Some say that it blames the teacher for most everything....
I do think that the teacher should be held accountable for what goes on in their classroom, so I see no problem with teacher's being accountable for that....AS LONG AS those teachers that are doing what they should are rewarded for their job well done...

2. Some say that it has picked up the education of those that fall within the "special services" category.....BUT has left the "gifted and talented" behind....
I agree with this 100%....we have watered down the curriculum so much that we now have a "brain deficit" in this country for the next generation....

3. Some say that we are testing our student's to death...
I agree, a test made by a group of college professors in Massachusetts....seems alittle out of touch for what is happening in the classroom.
I agree, although I do not see any problem with the Social Studies TAKS test here in Texas, I do believe the country as a whole needs to look more toward the New York State Regency Tests, IMO, they are the best.

4. Some say that the expectations of the government for schools to comply to what they have in place in the areas of attendance, special service %, math scores, science scores has led school's to focus only on certain areas, and allow other areas to suffer.

Example: In the area of Special Services, according to the US government school's should have no more than 1% of their student body classified as special services, whereas on average closer to 10% are usually classified with some sort of learning disability. This means that within the next 5 years 99% of the student body would be taking basically the same exit exam, no matter their learning disability....

Also, Primary school's have basically thrown out their Social Studies classtime because it is not tested until 8th grade, and have given that time to Math and Science because those are tested at 3rd, and 5th grade level.

Here is where the candidates stand on Education.

BARAK OBAMA:
A World class education
“I don't want to send another generation of American children to failing schools. I don't want that future for my daughters. I don't want that future for your sons. I do not want that future for America.”
— Barack Obama, Jefferson-Jackson Dinner, Des Moines, Iowa, November 10, 2007
Early Childhood Education


Zero to Five Plan: Obama's comprehensive "Zero to Five" plan will provide critical support to young children and their parents. Unlike other early childhood education plans, Obama's plan places key emphasis at early care and education for infants, which is essential for children to be ready to enter kindergarten. Obama will create Early Learning Challenge Grants to promote state "zero to five" efforts and help states move toward voluntary, universal pre-school.
Expand Early Head Start and Head Start: Obama will quadruple Early Head Start, increase Head Start funding and improve quality for both.
Affordable, High-Quality Child Care: Obama will also provide affordable and high-quality child care to ease the burden on working families. K-12

Reform No Child Left Behind: Obama will reform NCLB, which starts by funding the law. Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests. He will improve the assessments used to track student progress to measure readiness for college and the workplace and improve student learning in a timely, individualized manner. Obama will also improve NCLB's accountability system so that we are supporting schools that need improvement, rather than punishing them.
Make Math and Science Education a National Priority: Obama will recruit math and science degree graduates to the teaching profession and will support efforts to help these teachers learn from professionals in the field. He will also work to ensure that all children have access to a strong science curriculum at all grade levels.
Address the Dropout Crisis: Obama will address the dropout crisis by passing his legislation to provide funding to school districts to invest in intervention strategies in middle school - strategies such as personal academic plans, teaching teams, parent involvement, mentoring, intensive reading and math instruction, and extended learning time.
Expand High-Quality Afterschool Opportunities: Obama will double funding for the main federal support for afterschool programs, the 21st Century Learning Centers program, to serve one million more children.
Expand Summer Learning Opportunities: Obama's "STEP UP" plan addresses the achievement gap by supporting summer learning opportunities for disadvantaged children through partnerships between local schools and community organizations.
Support College Outreach Programs: Obama supports outreach programs like GEAR UP, TRIO and Upward Bound to encourage more young people from low-income families to consider and prepare for college.
Support English Language Learners: Obama supports transitional bilingual education and will help Limited English Proficient students get ahead by holding schools accountable for making sure these students complete school.
Recruit, Prepare, Retain, and Reward America's Teachers






Recruit Teachers: Obama will create new Teacher Service Scholarships that will cover four years of undergraduate or two years of graduate teacher education, including high-quality alternative programs for mid-career recruits in exchange for teaching for at least four years in a high-need field or location.
Prepare Teachers: Obama will require all schools of education to be accredited. He will also create a voluntary national performance assessment so we can be sure that every new educator is trained and ready to walk into the classroom and start teaching effectively. Obama will also create Teacher Residency Programs that will supply 30,000 exceptionally well-prepared recruits to high-need schools.
Retain Teachers: To support our teachers, Obama's plan will expand mentoring programs that pair experienced teachers with new recruits. He will also provide incentives to give teachers paid common planning time so they can collaborate to share best practices.
Reward Teachers: Obama will promote new and innovative ways to increase teacher pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them. Districts will be able to design programs that reward accomplished educators who serve as a mentor to new teachers with a salary increase. Districts can reward teachers who work in underserved places like rural areas and inner cities. And if teachers consistently excel in the classroom, that work can be valued and rewarded as well.
Higher Education


Create the American Opportunity Tax Credit: Obama will make college affordable for all Americans by creating a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This universal and fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students. Obama will also ensure that the tax credit is available to families at the time of enrollment by using prior year's tax data to deliver the credit when tuition is due.
Simplify the Application Process for Financial Aid: Obama will streamline the financial aid process by eliminating the current federal financial aid application and enabling families to apply simply by checking a box on their tax form, authorizing their tax information to be used, and eliminating the need for a separate application.
Barack Obama's Record
Record of Advocacy: Obama has been a leader on educational issues throughout his career. In the Illinois State Senate, Obama was a leader on early childhood education, helping create the state's Early Learning Council. In the U.S. Senate, Obama has been a leader in working to make college more affordable. His very first bill sought to increase the maximum Pell Grant award to $5,100. As a member of the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions committee, Obama helped pass legislation to achieve that goal in the recent improvements to the Higher Education Act. Obama has also introduced legislation to create Teacher Residency Programs and to increase federal support for summer learning opportunities.

JOHN MCCAIN:

School Prayer
McCain is in favor of school prayer, and has supported legislation that would allow public schools to erect religious symbols as part of memorial services.

Departing From the No Child Left Behind Act
John McCain would do away with the "sanctions" in the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB), which force schools that don't improve annual scores to offer tutoring or tickets to another public school.

McCain will also change the NCLB's requirement that 100 percent of the nation's children be proficient in math and reading by 2014. McCain is still supportive of the intiative, but as a realist, he might change the deadline.


According to McCain's website:
No Child Left Behind has focused our attention on the realities of how students perform against a common standard. John McCain believes that we can no longer accept low standards for some students and high standards for others. In this age of honest reporting, we finally see what is happening to students who were previously invisible. While that is progress all its own, it compels us to seek and find solutions to the dismal facts before us.
School Vouchers
McCain believes equal opportunity should be a key component of education reform, and is a firm defender of school vouchers -- which give parents the right to send their children to the school of their choice.

Because the responsibility of educating America's future leaders and citizens is so important, McCain believes school systems must report to parents and the public on their progress.

The way students are prepared for their future is deplorable, in McCain's opinion, especially when compared with the rest of the world. Thus, McCain believes parents should have the right to send their children to schools of demonstrated excellence, especially if it's their own homes.

McCain supports competition between schools and letting parents decide where they send their children, based on which schools they believe are the most high-quality and innovative, and schools that demonstrate excellence through this method should receive higher funding, respectively.

States Rights
Nevertheless, McCain won't tie funding to academic performance. As a supporter of state's rights, he will allow states to make spending decisions that best suit student needs. In addition to these unrestricted block grants, McCain would include another $500 million for teacher merit pay.

McCain believes states also should be in charge of students' curriculums, including whether to teach intelligent design, evolution or creationism.

Retired & Community Tutors
Although teachers are the cornerstone of education under McCain's plan, he believes senior citizens would serve as excellent tutors. To accomplish this, he wants to create a pool of volunteer military veterans, retirees and others who would tutor students in math, science and English. The lessons, however, would go beyond scholastic subjects. Tutors, to McCain, would help promote traditional values for students and reiterate to them the importance of a good education.

Tax-free Education Expenses
McCain has been supportive of a program that would allow parents to open tax-free savings accounts for their children’s educational expenses - including tutoring, computers, and tuition. He sponsored a bill to implement this program in 1999; despite passing both Houses of Congress, President Bill Clinton vetoed it.

McCain's Education Quick Hits:

McCain supports funding for:

Nutrition and enrichment programs for low-income and at-risk children
Family literacy programs and education for homeless adults
Programs that help reduce the dropout rate for minority students, especially Hispanics, who have unique dropout circumstances
High-speed Internet access (and filtering software) for every public school and library

[Kelly]

For those that want more of a comparison...


http://www.siia.net/govt/docs/pub/ObamaMcCainStaffEdDebate.pdf

[Matt]

I think the problem is, everyone wants someone to blame, except the student. If a student does not want to learn, they will not learn. Our public schools are not failig the students. The students are failing the students.

[Kelly]

I wish it were as simple as that.

IMO, it is a 4 fold problem.
1. The student of course...
2. The parent(s)
3. The teacher
4. The community

In order for a school to be successful, these 4 things have to work together.


I have never met a student that "did not want to learn". They may not like math, or science, or english, or god forbid, geography.....lol, but they do want to learn. NOW, do they want to make the sacrifices needed to learn? Maybe not, but when I have parent's that care, then usually the student has rules at home as well as at school, and that student is usually successful.
I have never met a student that "wants to fail". Again, math, science, english, etc may not be their best subject, but I have yet to have a student say, "oh hell yeah, I plan on failing this class...." Again, the parent is a good partner for the teacher, as well as a solid infrastructure within the school if that student needs specific help. THE TEACHER is also, extremely important for this type of student. If the teacher is passionate about their subject, passionate about the kids, and willing to go that extra mile, THAT STUDENT, can be successful. Will they pull an A, maybe not.....a B, maybe not.....but they will not be a failure either. I have students in my class that fell to their knees when they saw the 75 next to their name on the grade list outside my door the last day of school.....lol THEY WERE DAMN PROUD OF THAT 75, and some of those student's loved my class. Some who may 90's, did not like my class......lol. I was never that great in math, my mom was happy with a high C, low B....for the low end of my grades........and we celebrated if I made a high B or an A.
I have students that are going to be successful, no matter what the circumstances are at home. School for them is their heaven away from hell at home. I have quite a few of these kiddos. They are self-stimulated. They plan on having a better life than their parents, and they'll do their very best to achieve that.
I have some students that are just little buttheads, and yet they have a homelife that few kids could even dream of. They think that the grade should be given to them, and not earned.
I have students that want so much to succeed, but they have parent(s) that seem to be doing everything in order that they fail. I've verbally slammed some of these parents. Sometimes it works. Unfortunately, many of these students find themselves moving from place to place, and therefore never truly get the education they want and deserve.

All of the students above can succeed in the classroom if the 3 (parent, student, teacher) can work together, and in most cases, if one of the 3 works alittle harder to take up the slack of the slacker.....that student can succeed. Usually the one to take up the slack is the teacher....SOOOOOOOO if teacher's pay increased, class size decreased....those 2 things could help to keep good, qualified, passionate teachers in the classroom.

So where does the community come in?

The community can support 1 or all 3 of the above.


The community can provide tutors for the students...
The community can provide afterschool programs, not just in the area of education, but in the area of FUN....kids DO NOT know how to have fun these days....
The communtiy can provide the simple things for students such as supplies.....it is amazing what a new book bag full of supplies can do for a student.
The community can provide funding in many areas as far as fine arts, sports, etc.
The community can provide help for the family as a whole. (As far as my region, the community provides ESL classes for the parents.)


When these 4 work together, not necessarily equal, but together, the kiddos will be successful.

Will the student end up going to a 4 year college? Maybe, maybe not.

Not all people are college bound. Unfortunately "No Child Left Behind" has forgotten this in my opinion. CATE programs that prepare students to go straight into the work world, are being cut at a faster rate than fine arts programs. This is where many of those students that may not be successful in the classroom, CAN BE SUCCESSFUL, yet these are the areas that are being slashed.



Will there be those kids that we lose? Yes........but education reform should not be written with the thinking that "some just won't learn". IMO, you have already failed that student before you even give them a chance.

[Tag279]

Kel as an educator which candidates plan do you think would be the most effective? And why?

[Zen]

I have to do some more personal research on this.

going by just what you have posted. all i like about John McCains offerring is the emphasis on tutorship and fitting seniors in there.

Obama's offering seems much more comprehensive and substance oriented. I tend to shy away from prayer and intelligent design debates. i think we have to work with bigger structural issues first.

i would say education has become my number 2 issue.

i put it above healthcare.

Energy
Education
Healthcare
Warin Iraq....
Etc.

I dont work in the educational field yet. but i think we need more teachers so as to have smaller classrooms that can be more laser guilded on teaching and not so much on crowd controll. my lil brother is in a class with 30 kids

i just think thats kind of insane.

my classes were 15 kids.

i think their should be a bigger emphasis on educating teachers in child behavioral science. around here the policy is to "medicate" everyone who doesnt fit an established mold, an acceptable mold.

back in the day i would have been medicated, but my teacher had salt. she knew how to deal with me. she wasn't some lost soul who couldnt figure out what to do with her life....and she became a teacher. she was skilled, wise and set me straight in a way that worked. A lot of teachers who are getting out of college, tell me they fell back on teaching cause they failed at what they wanted to do. its sad. i think we should emphasize some of the behavioral sciences to combat this paradigm.

I am wary about rewarding teachers for performance. i dont want teachers to become automatons and just pound test taking skills into kids rather than some serious substance and tutelage. but as a future educator its tempting to swing to the reward side because, i like getting paid... id like to get paid more for doing well. but i dont want to waste class time with practice tests and diagnostic nonsense.

After school programs are important. Obama has highlighted this to some extent... i think having productive outlets for energy, and stimulating activities available after school... is a great tool for keeping kids on a track to success.

what i am stumped with is how to get and keep parents involved.

i dont know how i would support or suggest legislating that. Parents these days are ripe with excuses on why its hard. i hear that. but i also know a generation of americans that on average worked much harder and kept the complaints to themselves, and instead focused on getting the job done. people are ripe with a lack of critical thinking skills... which they should have learned, and persued how to use in school. instead they have families without thinking about what size they should bear... "Joey needs a brother or a sister" beats out "mom and dad will become depressed, mediocre custodians for both children."

i digress...

but families are so complicated. its hard to say how you could get in there and help. short of advocating family counseling. should that job fall on the school?

part of me thinks. screw it... natural selection! let the cream rise to the top. but its the kids who are getting screwed so i cant completely come to terms with thinking that way. and as the rest of the world begins to pass us by in education, im not sure we can afford to think this way anymore.


also Kel, whats your take on school vouchers? i havnt formed an opinion on them yet. id appreciate an educators opinion on them.

[Tag279]

I have to do some more personal research on this.

going by just what you have posted. all i like about John McCains offerring is the emphasis on tutorship and fitting seniors in there.

Obama's offering seems much more comprehensive and substance oriented. I tend to shy away from prayer and intelligent design debates. i think we have to work with bigger structural issues first.

i would say education has become my number 2 issue.

i put it above healthcare.

Energy
Education
Healthcare
Warin Iraq....
Etc.

I dont work in the educational field yet. but i think we need more teachers so as to have smaller classrooms that can be more laser guilded on teaching and not so much on crowd controll. my lil brother is in a class with 30 kids

i just think thats kind of insane.

my classes were 15 kids.

i think their should be a bigger emphasis on educating teachers in child behavioral science. around here the policy is to "medicate" everyone who doesnt fit an established mold, an acceptable mold.

back in the day i would have been medicated, but my teacher had salt. she knew how to deal with me. she wasn't some lost soul who couldnt figure out what to do with her life....and she became a teacher. she was skilled, wise and set me straight in a way that worked. A lot of teachers who are getting out of college, tell me they fell back on teaching cause they failed at what they wanted to do. its sad. i think we should emphasize some of the behavioral sciences to combat this paradigm.

I am wary about rewarding teachers for performance. i dont want teachers to become automatons and just pound test taking skills into kids rather than some serious substance and tutelage. but as a future educator its tempting to swing to the reward side because, i like getting paid... id like to get paid more for doing well. but i dont want to waste class time with practice tests and diagnostic nonsense.

After school programs are important. Obama has highlighted this to some extent... i think having productive outlets for energy, and stimulating activities available after school... is a great tool for keeping kids on a track to success.

what i am stumped with is how to get and keep parents involved.

i dont know how i would support or suggest legislating that. Parents these days are ripe with excuses on why its hard. i hear that. but i also know a generation of americans that on average worked much harder and kept the complaints to themselves, and instead focused on getting the job done. people are ripe with a lack of critical thinking skills... which they should have learned, and persued how to use in school. instead they have families without thinking about what size they should bear... "Joey needs a brother or a sister" beats out "mom and dad will become depressed, mediocre custodians for both children."

i digress...

but families are so complicated. its hard to say how you could get in there and help. short of advocating family counseling. should that job fall on the school?

part of me thinks. screw it... natural selection! let the cream rise to the top. but its the kids who are getting screwed so i cant completely come to terms with thinking that way. and as the rest of the world begins to pass us by in education, im not sure we can afford to think this way anymore.


also Kel, whats your take on school vouchers? i havnt formed an opinion on them yet. id appreciate an educators opinion on them.

Zen my first job out of college was a teacher. I taught at an alternative school first and then the next semester I transfered to the Jr. High in the roughest part of town. I stopped teaching to be a Firefighter. I really enjoy being in the fire service but my biggest gripe was the in-flexability in curriculum and teaching style they dumped on us.

I got in the fire service because the pay was comparable. And I wanted to be as close to law enforcement as I could.Currently I am a Fire Inspector/ Arson Investigator.

Education is my number two issue also. My concern with vouchers is that the children that don't have a lot of money could still be at a disadvantage. I think vouchers have the potential of making it too easy to discriminate.

[Zen]

Zen my first job out of college was a teacher. I taught at an alternative school first and then the next semester I transfered to the Jr. High in the roughest part of town. I stopped teaching to be a Firefighter. I really enjoy being in the fire service but my biggest gripe was the in-flexability in curriculum and teaching style they dumped on us.

I got in the fire service because the pay was comparable. And I wanted to be as close to law enforcement as I could.Currently I am a Fire Inspector/ Arson Investigator.

Education is my number two issue also. My concern with vouchers is that the children that don't have a lot of money could still be at a disadvantage. I think vouchers have the potential of making it too easy to discriminate.


interesting.

would vouchers weaken public schools in your opinion?

[StorminNorman]

IMO Vouchers and Commercialization of Schools is the best way to go.

Open a free market for schools and give the choice of which school a child goes to to the parent. All of this would be funded by the government. It is the poor that most benefits from such a program, allowing a poor intercity child to choose to be schooled at any school in the area gives kids the best opportunity available.

This would also have a great impact on High Schools. Most high schools now focus all their attention on college preparation, which is great if everyone is going to college - but thats not the case.

School Choice is vital. If schools are treated like a business - they will have to perform or face losing funding. There are now real incentives for school performance on an administrative level.

[Tag279]

interesting.

would vouchers weaken public schools in your opinion?

Yes they would.

Think about it if M-Town Hihgh is the public school and M-Town prep is the private HS which school do you think will be percieved as the better school?

We have a private HS in my city and it is regarded as "The School" to go to. Because the school is private they are not held to state educational standards for their teachers. A mom can teach history if the principal likes her. wherther she is truly qualified or not.

Okay now back to M-Town prep if M-Town prep has 100 slots fo vouchers and there are 300 kids that qualify for vouchers where do the 200-kids that they didn't have space for end up? Back at M-Town High right. Well there is another school M-South Prep that has 200 slots for vouchers. Does this really offer more choice?

M-Town High still gets everyone else and now thanks to the voucher system M-Town high has less money to work with. Who decides what children get into M-Town Prep. Just because a school is private doesn'e mean it's the best.

Our Private HS in our city has a much higher graduation rate but yet the collegiate retention level is less than the level of our public High School how could that be it's where the rich kids go? Easily Private schools don't have the same standards that a Public school does and If a parent is paying 2500-dollars in tution a semester they better pass.

How is the private school going to stay open booting out students?

[SentinelMind]

I agree with Matt, lots of kids just don't value their education, and its essentially their responsibility. However, I do think its still possible to allow our schools to compete with educational systems like those of Japan and that should continue to be our priority.

What I think is the biggest problem though is the administration of values and discipline are missing from our public schools. Teachers can't discipline students anymore,...if a students acts out and disrupts the class, the teacher can't remove the student, the teacher will be reprimanded by the school administration or even the student's parents. The student holds the class hostage and creates a distraction. Any attempt to instill discipline in the classroom is met with parent complaints and civil rights lawsuits. No to public school uniforms that have been successful in reducing tardiness, disobedient, unruly behavior and improving academic performance...etc... because it "hurts a student's civil rights".

In placing of teaching, reading, writing, and arithmetic, there is now bigger emphrasis on teaching "multiculturalism", "feel good about yourself" classes and a bigger emphasis on sexual education. Teachers now want to hand out condoms, play to role of proxy of parent in making decisions about the students sex lives...hide abortion from parents. We now have yearbooks, school administrators, etc... that cherish instead of stigmatize students who end up pregnant in high school. They're rewarded for their depraved behavior.

All these programs are nice and all......lets give millions more to Headstart..yaddaa yadda yadad....but I don't believe throwing billions and billions of dollars at a crooked, corrupt bureacracy is the solution to our education crisis. The solution is sometimes is simpler than we realize, but we don't want the courage to look at the problem directly.

The best way to get more math teachers and science teacher in the classroom is to pay them a higher salary than say English teachers. The problem there is that will be met with resistance by the teachers unions and government bureacracies. The unions want every teacher with the same tenure of experience getting paid the same salary. The funny thing is that where I live, there are teachers getting LAID off....even though the school NEEDS more math, science teachers. There is a gluttony of Education, English, Social Science majors entering the education field,...and the physics, math majors are looking into private industry cause they can get paid more. The school doesn't need all those PE teachers, but they fill up the system and the school can't pay those PE teachers a higher salary than the demand requires or you'll be even more flooded.

I believe essentially that public schools need to be held accountable (that means fire people for not doing a good job, don't give more funding for teachers that are failing), teachers should be equipped with the ability to instill discipline and order in the classroom (get the trouble makers out of the classroom, school administrators need to back up teachers who are abused by their students), require school uniforms, professional dress code...continue to use standardized tests to objectively assess a student' understanding of the material.

[Kelly]

I have to do some more personal research on this.

going by just what you have posted. all i like about John McCains offerring is the emphasis on tutorship and fitting seniors in there.

Obama's offering seems much more comprehensive and substance oriented. I tend to shy away from prayer and intelligent design debates. i think we have to work with bigger structural issues first.

i would say education has become my number 2 issue.

i put it above healthcare.

Energy
Education
Healthcare
Warin Iraq....
Etc.

I dont work in the educational field yet. but i think we need more teachers so as to have smaller classrooms that can be more laser guilded on teaching and not so much on crowd controll. my lil brother is in a class with 30 kids

i just think thats kind of insane.

my classes were 15 kids.

i think their should be a bigger emphasis on educating teachers in child behavioral science. around here the policy is to "medicate" everyone who doesnt fit an established mold, an acceptable mold.

This is already happening within our professional development....
As far as our school district we follow the Ruby Payne framework. This is predominantly geared toward children of poverty, but the framework includes child behavior, since the two coorespond in many instances.

back in the day i would have been medicated, but my teacher had salt. she knew how to deal with me. she wasn't some lost soul who couldnt figure out what to do with her life....and she became a teacher. she was skilled, wise and set me straight in a way that worked. A lot of teachers who are getting out of college, tell me they fell back on teaching cause they failed at what they wanted to do. its sad. i think we should emphasize some of the behavioral sciences to combat this paradigm.
What you will find with many teachers today, myself included, is that our minors usually will fall in the sociology and psychology realm. I have a double minor in both.

I am wary about rewarding teachers for performance. i dont want teachers to become automatons and just pound test taking skills into kids rather than some serious substance and tutelage. but as a future educator its tempting to swing to the reward side because, i like getting paid... id like to get paid more for doing well. but i dont want to waste class time with practice tests and diagnostic nonsense.
Why not reward teachers for a job well done, in most of your other occupations out there, there is some type of merit system in place. Why should teaching be any different. I work my ass off in the classroom, and during the summer. YES, as a department head I get paid more, but when my department ranks above the state and national average in test scores, I think my teachers should be rewarded for that.

After school programs are important. Obama has highlighted this to some extent... i think having productive outlets for energy, and stimulating activities available after school... is a great tool for keeping kids on a track to success.
After school programs are what got me into theatre and sports, which later in my education, kept me in school because in order to do what I loved, I had to attend and make the grade. So yeah, I agree they are very important, and actually pretty easy to achieve. Hell, at my school you have open gym for our kiddos and they will COME. LOL

what i am stumped with is how to get and keep parents involved.

i dont know how i would support or suggest legislating that. Parents these days are ripe with excuses on why its hard. i hear that. but i also know a generation of americans that on average worked much harder and kept the complaints to themselves, and instead focused on getting the job done. people are ripe with a lack of critical thinking skills... which they should have learned, and persued how to use in school. instead they have families without thinking about what size they should bear... "Joey needs a brother or a sister" beats out "mom and dad will become depressed, mediocre custodians for both children."
This is the area that is the most challenging for schools at the secondary level. For some reason, parents are all about supporting their kids at the primary level, but as soon as the kid can drive, they are on their own. In many cases, the parents just have no idea how to support their kids at the secondary level. If schools will give them more opportunities to help, I think many parents would. How do you legislate that? You can't.

i digress...

but families are so complicated. its hard to say how you could get in there and help. short of advocating family counseling. should that job fall on the school?

part of me thinks. screw it... natural selection! let the cream rise to the top. but its the kids who are getting screwed so i cant completely come to terms with thinking that way. and as the rest of the world begins to pass us by in education, im not sure we can afford to think this way anymore.
We need to get out of the frame of mind that student's will get their true education when they go to college......that is one of the main problems of our education system today IMO.
There are so many factors as to why other countries are surpassing us. I think we have hit a generation that no longer desires to work for what they get. I even see it in the new teachers coming in. As far as my school is concerned, the thing that will get you canned in your first through third year of teaching is to have an attitude that says, you deserve to be given your paycheck just because you get to school on time and leave at 3:00.

The family framework has broken down completely here in the US which I believe is part of the problem. It is apparent that in other countries this is not the case, and I believe that is a hugh factor. Do I think the school needs to become the family? Oh hell no.........but I do sometimes get called mom on accident...lol

also Kel, whats your take on school vouchers? i havnt formed an opinion on them yet. id appreciate an educators opinion on them.

I have no problem with public schools having competition. Why should private schools only be for the rich? Bring the competition on......it will only make us in the public forum better. BUT, they have to be held to the same standards that my students are held to, and that I'm held to. Let me compete with private schools on the same playing field, with the same rules.

[Kelly]

Kel as an educator which candidates plan do you think would be the most effective? And why?


Actually, they are both rather similar.

Education will not be the breaking factor for me witht these candidates.

BUT, I do believe that Obama has his hand more firmly on the pulse of America in the area of education. AND, I think he would make it more of a priority than McCain.

Honestly, the Senate has to get its head out of its ass and get something done. It won't matter what the President thinks about education if the Senate doesn't make it a priority as well.

I am not a fan of NCLB.......and it doesn't look like either candidate is going to scrap it. Not that it totally needs to be scrapped mind you, but it does need some heavy work, and both candidates seem to have an idea of where the problem areas are.

I would like to see one of the candidates really look at reforming our Middle School areas of education.

We drop the ball at the 6th-8th grade level. We compete with the rest of the world up until 6th grade. There is a problem in our Junior Highs. It's a freaking time in a teenagers life, and the schools administration, teachers, parents are not able to cope. We need to pay alot of attention to this area.

[Gilpesh]

Yes, education needs reform. But I'm not the man smart enough to come up with what should be done. (And neither is anyone that says prayer in school is needed)

[Kelly]

Yes, education needs reform. But I'm not the man smart enough to come up with what should be done. (And neither is anyone that says prayer in school is needed)

lol, prayer is still in school, it never left...........I just can't lead my kiddos in a time of prayer before their tests....:cwink:

[Sandman138]

lol, prayer is still in school, it never left...........I just can't lead my kiddos in a time of prayer before their tests....:cwink:

And that is how it should be. After all, you might lead them to pray to the wrong God. And then they might fail. And then whose fault would that be?

[Sandman138]

I think the biggest thing that needs reform is the rigidity of the system. I think it is absurd that we think one schedule will fit the needs of every child and the ability of every educator. Every working member of society has to know at least basic algebra, but not every child needs to, or even can, learn basic algebra when it is taught for half an hour each day at nine in the morning. Some would be fair better having an hour long session once every other day at around three in the afternoon. The problem is we want our schools to not only educate, but to babysit our children. The schedule stays rigid because we want to able to drop our kids off, go to work, and pick them up and hope that what happens in between that time imparts knowledge onto them. For some kids, it works. For others it fails miserably.

When it comes to math and science, the insistence of the Teachers Union that all teachers be paid the same wage, while a nice sentiment, carries a lot of the blame. The people most qualified to teach math and science tend to realize they could get much better pay in R&D or industry, and if not there then at least at universities.

So here's a thought, hire more part time teachers, and look outside of the realm of certified teachers or people with degrees in education. You need more qualified biology/physiology teachers? Look to the pharmacists. Chemistry? There are 170 major industrial chemical companies in the U.S. and many other lesser ones. Industrial chemists are not hard to find. Mathematics? Engineers. Sure, we couldn't afford to employ these people full time, but if they wanted to make more money on the side teaching a class or two, then that's great. With enough of them you have the ability to hold a math class with a qualified teacher at the time that best fits the student and the administration is happy because they have less people working for tenure to worry about. Hell, given the economy, a lot of these very qualified people have been forced to retire and are still looking for jobs.

All of this has worked very well for community colleges. Indeed, the CC in my area is renound for educating countless high school drop outs and giving them the knowledge and skills to either find a productive vocation or continue on to higher education. Yet for some reason, we are resistant to putting their successful strategies to work for anybody who is under 18 and hasn't dropped out. It boggles my mind.

[Kelly]

I think the biggest thing that needs reform is the rigidity of the system. I think it is absurd that we think one schedule will fit the needs of every child and the ability of every educator. Every working member of society has to know at least basic algebra, but not every child needs to, or even can, learn basic algebra when it is taught for half an hour each day at nine in the morning. Some would be fair better having an hour long session once every other day at around three in the afternoon. The problem is we want our schools to not only educate, but to babysit our children. The schedule stays rigid because we want to able to drop our kids off, go to work, and pick them up and hope that what happens in between that time imparts knowledge onto them. For some kids, it works. For others it fails miserably.

When it comes to math and science, the insistence of the Teachers Union that all teachers be paid the same wage, while a nice sentiment, carries a lot of the blame. The people most qualified to teach math and science tend to realize they could get much better pay in R&D or industry, and if not there then at least at universities.

So here's a thought, hire more part time teachers, and look outside of the realm of certified teachers or people with degrees in education. You need more qualified biology/physiology teachers? Look to the pharmacists. Chemistry? There are 170 major industrial chemical companies in the U.S. and many other lesser ones. Industrial chemists are not hard to find. Mathematics? Engineers. Sure, we couldn't afford to employ these people full time, but if they wanted to make more money on the side teaching a class or two, then that's great. With enough of them you have the ability to hold a math class with a qualified teacher at the time that best fits the student and the administration is happy because they have less people working for tenure to worry about. Hell, given the economy, a lot of these very qualified people have been forced to retire and are still looking for jobs.

All of this has worked very well for community colleges. Indeed, the CC in my area is renound for educating countless high school drop outs and giving them the knowledge and skills to either find a productive vocation or continue on to higher education. Yet for some reason, we are resistant to putting their successful strategies to work for anybody who is under 18 and hasn't dropped out. It boggles my mind.


All that you are talking about is being done across the country.

Community Colleges are now getting involved with not just drop outs, but students that want to go on to college. They are working with regional 4 year universities so that the students can at some point transfer and have all of their grades transfer with them.

Many schools have Alternative Schools available for those that are possible drop out candidates, or have already dropped out, that work with their work hours, children, etc.

Community Colleges and industry in and around school districts across the country are beginning to set up coaching sessions for students that are struggling in the areas of Math and Science.

Teachers today for the most part are not coming out of college with Education degrees. They are coming out of college with degrees in the areas they want to teach. I don't have an education degree, I'm simply certified to teach Sociology, Psychology, Anthropology, Political Science, Economics, World and US History, and World Geography and yet my degree is in law. I teach Pre AP World Geography with an emphasis on Politics and Humanitarian studies. A good number of your teachers are coming from the work world. They get into an ACP program where they take their classes like adolescent, or child psychology, etc on Saturdays or after school. They are in the classroom from day one, and they have a mentor. I mentor about 3 teachers per year. They are certified to teach in their subject areas, they do not have education degrees. Most of your universities today work with ACP programs rather than student teaching, because many of their students would rather begin teaching with a paycheck, rather than student teaching for free. These programs are the fastest growing area of education on the teacher's side in the nation.

Changes are happening, maybe not as fast as we would like, but they are happening.

I can't speak about your thoughts on Teacher's Unions, because the State of Texas does not have Teacher's Unions.

[BlackestNight]

lol, prayer is still in school, it never left...........I just can't lead my kiddos in a time of prayer before their tests....:cwink:

lol when I was in high school, my high school band director still led us in prayer before we entered the field for competition. He would respectfully say that everyone who would like to participate in pray come forward and bow your head.

The only person that didn't pray was the 1 Jewish kid in the band and by my senior year I join him as I became agnostic (Damn you Bill Maher). In my opinion pray is ok as long as it’s not led by a government official. Student led prayer is ok in my book.

On a side note lol i remember telling a Catholic friend of mine that she was goign to hell because she wasn't Baptist during my freshmen year in highschool.

[Malice]

IMO, dump all standards and let the states manage it.

[Kelly]

IMO, dump all standards and let the states manage it.

In reality the states are managing it. Yes you have National Standards in all subjects, but for the most part each state has their own standards. Ex: The TEKS "Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills" here in Texas.

IMO, that is one of the problems. You have some states that have no standards at all. Some states that do not hold their teachers to much of anything. There is nothing wrong with the National Standards as a whole. The problem is the people overseeing all of this that are the problem. They have either NEVER been in the classroom, or they are so far removed from the classroom they have no idea what they hell they are talking about.

[jaguarr]

I wish NCLB would just be jettisoned altogether, but if it's going to be revised I think I like what Obama's thinking of doing with it more than I do what McCain is considering. I also like that Obama's education reform plans are much more comprehensive, making NCLB just one of the aspects of the program rather than making it THE primary aspect of focus. Addressing the students as individuals and giving them each what they need to succeed as much as possible seems to be important to Obama and that's one of my my main rubs against NCLB, in that it marginalizes the more advanced students in favor of the average and even the poor performers. We need to be really grooming our advanced students and giving them opportunities to advance even further. And this fixation on performance testing has got to end. The tests aren't relevant, as Kel pointed out, and tying funding to percentages of students passing them has teachers fixating on just teaching kids to pass these tests instead of actually learning the things that will carry them forward in life and in upper education. I like McCain's take on vouchers, state's rights and the tax free savings accounts but those things, like so much of his education platform, don't seem very fleshed out in any detail as to how he would make them work or even happen.

jag

[Kelly]

I wish NCLB would just be jettisoned altogether, but if it's going to be revised I think I like what Obama's thinking of doing with it more than I do what McCain is considering. I also like that Obama's education reform plans are much more comprehensive, making NCLB just one of the aspects of the program rather than making it THE primary aspect of focus. Addressing the students as individuals and giving them each what they need to succeed as much as possible seems to be important to Obama and that's one of my my main rubs against NCLB, in that it marginalizes the more advanced students in favor of the average and even the poor performers. We need to be really grooming our advanced students and giving them opportunities to advance even further. And this fixation on performance testing has got to end. The tests aren't relevant, as Kel pointed out, and tying funding to percentages of students passing them has teachers fixating on just teaching kids to pass these tests instead of actually learning the things that will carry them forward in life and in upper education. I like McCain's take on vouchers, state's rights and the tax free savings accounts but those things, like so much of his education platform, don't seem very fleshed out in any detail as to how he would make them work or even happen.

jag

I see where you are coming from jag, I really do.....but we cannot continue to start an education program with every new president. I think that is where some of the problems have come. If you look at the history of education reform in the United States, you see years of changing every 4 to 8 years, or keeping the same crap and just calling it something different. BUT, if you look at classroom reform, we are moving back to the "art" of teaching. It is an art, and not everyone can do it. We now need standards that allow the teacher to teach, that allows the teacher to manage their classroom without being afraid of being sued. Teacher's are scared to death to teach, and that is sad. So as far as NCLB, IMO, the major area that needs to be changed is in the area of teacher accountability, and special services. But to totally trash it would be a step backwards IMO. If we could do it and hit the ground running with something new, then I would be all for it, but you can't.


As far as the "teaching to the test" is correct, BUT.......if the exit test is well aligned to your standards, then if you are teaching the standards you will be teaching to the test, its just automatic. We have to have these standards, because you have teachers that have what we call "love units" and they will spend a freaking 3 months on these things, but they are not truly a part of their class. I mention the word Holocaust, and my students want to spend 2 months on it because their American History teacher the year before spent 3 months on it, and they know alot about it. NEWSFLASH: 8th grade American History only goes up to 1877. Hmmm..........and it is only mentioned as an example of genocide in my class, so because they will talk about it within the standards in their World History class, I discuss Kosovo, Rwanda and Darfur in that area. Teachers are notorious for the example I just gave. So the standards have to be there, and a test is a good way to assess if the students have gained at least a portion of the knowledge they should have. NOW, here is where the problem lies as far as the tests.....

EXAMPLE:
The 8th grade TEKS Social Studies test, tests what they should have gotten in 5th, 6th and 7th grade Social Studies (NEWSFLASH: Social Studies is being thrown out in 5th and 6th, because of the Math and Science tests are given then, AND there are no 7th grade TEKS taught at the 8th grade level)
Then in most schools you have 8th grade US History to 1877, then World Geography, then World History, and then US History after 1877. At the 10th grade level they have a TEKS Social Studies test that tests, not only the 10th grade WH TEKS, but also a few of the WG TEKS, and a hell of alot of the 8th Grade TEKS. Guess what, I have no US TEKS in my standards of World Geography that hit on Early American History, yet 30% of the World History test is Early American History. Then they hit the 11th grade TAKS test, which they have to pass in order to graduate. They are again tested on Early American History, of which they haven't seen since 8th grade. Texas in a few years is moving to an EOC (End of Course exam), this exam will test over the TEKS for that grade level. SOOOOOOOOO.......IMO, if you build a solid test, that truly tests what you have taught, or should have taught in the classroom, then teaching to the test is not a big deal. BECAUSE, I have news for ya, you really cannot realistically TEACH TO THE TEST, because it changes. Usually you will have a 50 question test, of which 40 to 45 are actually graded, and then you have 5 to 10 field questions, THAT MIGHT be on a future test. Plus, many of your states are not releasing the tests anymore to keep this from happening as well. We are not allowed to look at the test while proctering. Do some teachers do this, yes, and if they are caught, they are fired. We had a teacher fired for talking with students right after the test to find out what was on it.

If the test truly gives you an idea of what the student knows and doesn't know, then no problem. If it tests them on things that they might have gotten 3 years before, then theres a problem.

Also, schools have their classes in the wrong order, or they do not have in place a class that the student needs. Example, if an 8th grader does well in their 8th grade Science class, then they can skip IPC (Integrated Physics and Chemistry, use to be Physical Science to you old foggies), and go right into Biology, and then AP Biology, etc. BUT, THERE IS an enormous amount of Chemistry on the 10th and 11th grade Science Exit tests.......when did they get it, they didn't.

EOC's are the key IMO. Test my students on the standards that they learn in my class, I have no problem with that, but don't make me accountable for what the teacher before me didn't teach, nor make me accountable for my special services students (who MAY read at a 4th grade level) to pass a test with the same standards for students that are reading at a 9th grade level.

[jaguarr]

True, we can't just reboot the system every time there's a new President (a major point of contention for me with Bush because the system wasn't in dire need of a reboot or massive reform when he put NCLB in place to begin with). If there are ways to salvage what we have and make it work for us, then that's fine. I do like that Obama is looking at ways to round out NCLB and put other pieces in place to compliment and complete it where it is lacking, not just reform it all on it's own and call it good. And, yes, you perfectly summed up so much of the problems that come with the way the testing requirements are handled today. It's a mess and a disservice to our kids. As a new parent, I want to see these things resolved before my son starts going to school.

jag

[Kelly]

If any of you have a chance and you have HBO, watch the documentary "Hard Times At Douglass High", it is a hard, realistic look at urban high schools.

[Malice]

(I looked and didn't see a thread of this topic....so if there was...it was really buried, regardless, time to revisit it.)

OK...we have problems with Education. I know Kel, who is a Teacher, can give you some points.

I see a number of problems and ways to get them solved, at least partially.

1) Remove the Fed from the equation
Take the Federal Government out of the Education business. Instead of having them mandate things and force the states to do it, follow the way it was originally designed. States Rights. Let the states handle it. The Fed and give the States funding, and let it end there. As part of it, get rid of the Sec of Education position, unless you have that position to help each state communicate with other states.

When you have each state working its own solution, you will have unique innovations. The Federal Government stifles innovation thru policies and the like. Without the Fed involved, each state is able to try different unique ways to get the job done. This is what I want. This will then allow each state to make adjustments.

2) Un-handcuff the teachers
Let the teachers teach the subject, not the test. I think performing number 1, will start to allow this.

Those are the first things I came up with...I am sure more will come.

[SuBe]

Add competition to the Equation. Just like any other business, People follow the Money, if one school is doing better, parents will want their kids there. Why dumb down all kids to make it even?

[BlackLantern]

I think every public school should have equal footing....there is a high school in an affluent neighborhood that has new equipment and even a small television station....drive 20 minutes away and you have a school that has overcrowded classes and has trouble keeping textbooks for the current decade

[Malice]

Add competition to the Equation. Just like any other business, People follow the Money, if one school is doing better, parents will want their kids there. Why dumb down all kids to make it even?

I agree...
The dumbing down of classes because of a few kids, hurts the majority.

[Malice]

I think every public school should have equal footing....there is a high school in an affluent neighborhood that has new equipment and even a small television station....drive 20 minutes away and you have a school that has overcrowded classes and has trouble keeping textbooks for the current decade

Equal footing is fine.
But a school in rich area....has better stuff why.
The people there pay massive amounts of money in taxes.

The low end school...doesnt support those taxes.

I get it, I want kids to get an education too.
But I dont want to be Robin hood and steal money from the "rich neighborhood" and give to the "poor neighborhood" and tell the rich parents, sorry, but your property taxes are going to go up 10% because the poor school cant afford it.

We have to have an equilibrium here

[Nitehawk013]

Ask the question "What are we eductaing these kids for"?

Are we educating to be productive members of society that can contribute to the economy? Or are schools largely just trying to engineer a future electorate for the party supported by the NEA?

If we want more productive memebers of the community, then why not focus more on learning trades, teaching for jobs, technical schools and colleges rather than the liberal arts leaning in most schools? Who cares if a group understands impressionism if they contribute nothing to society?

[StorminNorman]

I think parents should choose which school their children go to. I love the voucher idea, allowing a child's parent to decide where the federal money we already spend per child goes to.

[StorminNorman]

The NEA needs to go.

[Hobgoblin]

Personally, I dont believe that is a darn thing that the government or the schools can do to improve education in this country. You cant legislate a kid to learn the ABC's. It begins at home. Get the kid away from the TV, the computer and the video games and make them read a book.

When I was a kid, my parents sat me down at night and we went over my spelling, math facts and other assignments. It wasnt fun and it was frustrating for all involved but it made me invested in school because I knew that it must be important if my parents were this concerned about my classes.

When I started college, I studied to be a teacher and Malice is 100% right. The bar needs to be raised, not lowered. The prof made it a point to say so. I never went along with the idea that "the minimum of a subject should be taught because thats all the class will remember anyway." I remember facts from the 6th grade that are beyond what is the minimum. On a side note, an American history prof once mentioned that a high school education earned in 1900 would be the equivalent of a masters degree today, for the sheer amount of information covered. Thats how far we've fallen.

[Nitehawk013]

Too much dumbing down because teachers don't want to make little Billy feel dumb when he can't get anythign right. Don't use red ink, you'll give them a complex. Don't pass out F's, you'll stifle their creativity.

[BlackLantern]

We need to re-introduce shame and failure back into schools

[Hobgoblin]

Too much dumbing down because teachers don't want to make little Billy feel dumb when he can't get anythign right. Don't use red ink, you'll give them a complex. Don't pass out F's, you'll stifle their creativity.

Thats right, I forgot the red ink thing. I heard a teacher in college say that and I was amazed. He called it psychologically scarring for a student to see red ink on thier papers, saying it reminded them of blood.

We're all adults, man, not kindergartners. We can handle seeing red ink on paper.

[Paradoxium]

Add competition to the Equation. Just like any other business, People follow the Money, if one school is doing better, parents will want their kids there. Why dumb down all kids to make it even?
4 TeH Equality lulz.

We are the borg, we are diversity, we are equal, we are cognitive dissonance... resistance is racism :cmad:

Anyways they need to streamline college programs from 4 years to say 2 years.

[Marx]

Too much dumbing down because teachers don't want to make little Billy feel dumb when he can't get anythign right. Don't use red ink, you'll give them a complex. Don't pass out F's, you'll stifle their creativity.

We need to re-introduce shame and failure back into schools

I completely agree.

[Paradoxium]

Failure should not be seen as a bad thing, that's how a lot of people learn. Of course if they don't understand this utility, then yea that's a problem.

[BlackLantern]

^^^that's what I meant....I also think, kids are a lot smarter, the idea needs to be put across that what they are learning will be practical in the real world

[Paradoxium]

Schools in many ways teach a form of risk aversion; how failure is unacceptable. In real life this translate a bunch of people who want all the benefits (pay and freedom) that risk takers gain, and none of the potential consequences, harm and bad effects.

Wanting to have it all, as if they are entitled to it because they played it safe. Reminds me a lot of overpaid blood sucking public/government jobs.

[Malice]

You learn infinately more, by the act, and failing at it, then succeeding.

I believe it was Edison that said, he did not fail 1000 times to invent the incandescent lightbulb, and found 1000 ways that is would not work.

I like schools as they are now. (1st thru 12th grade)

I believe the teachers need to make sure they teach a subject. Public school, is meant to teach a broad amount of information. Math, Science, Languages, Music, Athletics, Writing, Literature, Arts, you name it. Its meant to create a broad pallet to give the student exposure to alot...for a reason. I am all for teaching ALOT in school.

College, is meant to take the broad knowledge that you know, and refine it to one or two subjects. You make the person much more effective at a specific topic/skill/genre.

We all know the parents have to be involved, but we cant address that, because we cant.

We are speaking to something we can affect. Thru policies, or even LACK of policies.

[SuBe]

From the Communist Manifesto

The 10 Measures of Communism

And how will the proletariat use their political clout to wrest capital away from the capitalists? With the 10 measures Marx and Engels laid out in 1848. As the master communists aver, the exact implementation will vary slightly from county to country, but will follow the general thrust of the measures.

Here are the 10 measures the proletariat will use to bring about the full realization of the communist utopian dream, once they have the political power:

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.


Saving the Best for Last?

[Nitehawk013]

Hmm...those sound pretty familiar. And yet people say those of us who say McCarthy was right are just crazy.

[SuBe]

Hmm...those sound pretty familiar. And yet people say those of us who say McCarthy was right are just crazy.
Does being the only sane man in a room make you crazy?

[Nitehawk013]

What is crazy is how many people just happily embrace all things Communist becaus eit means they will get "free" handouts.

Sad pathetic children.

[SuBe]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123604286020215187.html

Great Article on How Democrats are working to get rid of School Vouchers, and how this affects the Classmates of Obama's Children.

[The Incredible Hulk]

I agree...
The dumbing down of classes because of a few kids, hurts the majority.

welcome to America, where everything gets dumbed down for the dumbest people in the country.

[The Incredible Hulk]

We need to re-introduce shame and failure back into schools


and wedgies.... :up:

[SuperT]

Anyways they need to streamline college programs from 4 years to say 2 years.

Uh what? Most us aren't even finishing in four years, what makes you think we'd finish in two?!

[The Incredible Hulk]

Uh what? Most us aren't even finishing in four years, what makes you think we'd finish in two?!

because they load you up with BS elective and required courses that have no bearing on what you'd be doing in the real world. If you go to college for a business degree, then you just take business courses. You dont take English Lit, foreign languages, calculus, psychology and all the other crap they throw at you for the sake of bilking more tuition out of you.

[SuperT]

You dont take [b]English, foreign languages[b], calculus, psychology and all the other crap they throw at you.

If you're a business major I would think that English and Foreign Language would be pretty mandatory.

I'd actually think English should be pretty mandatory for most majors.

[dnno1]

(I looked and didn't see a thread of this topic....so if there was...it was really buried, regardless, time to revisit it.)

OK...we have problems with Education. I know Kel, who is a Teacher, can give you some points.

I see a number of problems and ways to get them solved, at least partially.

1) Remove the Fed from the equation
Take the Federal Government out of the Education business. Instead of having them mandate things and force the states to do it, follow the way it was originally designed. States Rights. Let the states handle it. The Fed and give the States funding, and let it end there. As part of it, get rid of the Sec of Education position, unless you have that position to help each state communicate with other states.

When you have each state working its own solution, you will have unique innovations. The Federal Government stifles innovation thru policies and the like. Without the Fed involved, each state is able to try different unique ways to get the job done. This is what I want. This will then allow each state to make adjustments.

2) Un-handcuff the teachers
Let the teachers teach the subject, not the test. I think performing number 1, will start to allow this.

Those are the first things I came up with...I am sure more will come.

You just suggested some solutions. You need to list the problems.

[Hobgoblin]

because they load you up with BS elective and required courses that have no bearing on what you'd be doing in the real world. If you go to college for a business degree, then you just take business courses. You dont take English Lit, foreign languages, calculus, psychology and all the other crap they throw at you for the sake of bilking more tuition out of you.

Frankly, I'm glad that colleges make us take extra courses, it makes us well rounded. We should learn as much about the world as possible, not just the minimum needed to get by.

[The Incredible Hulk]

Frankly, I'm glad that colleges make us take extra courses, it makes us well rounded. We should learn as much about the world as possible, not just the minimum needed to get by.

that's what K - 12 is for.

[SuperT]

Frankly, I'm glad that colleges make us take extra courses, it makes us well rounded. We should learn as much about the world as possible, not just the minimum needed to get by.

I totally agree. I love taking my classes that have to do with my major, but I've had a blast in a lot of my elective classes I've taken as well.

I also think cutting down college to just two years is not that great of an idea because I think college is so much more then just going and taking classes. That's like a whole life in itself and those four years help you grow and mature as a person.

I couldn't imagine just going to college for two years, getting a degree and joining the legitmate workforce at twenty. o_0 There's just so much you miss out on.

[SuBe]

Fun < Productivity.

[The Incredible Hulk]

If you're a business major I would think that English and Foreign Language would be pretty mandatory.



I'd actually think English should be pretty mandatory for most majors.



English is a building block course that should be taught and mastered at the lower levels of education. It shouldnt be a college subject unless its some advanced class that is relevant to a major. (I said English Lit for the record). And I've never had the ocassion to use anything learned in a college English class in either the business or legal worlds. The day I have to compose a sonnet or decipher the third act of Othello, I'll be sure to let you know. ;)

[SuperT]

Fun < Productivity.

Yes, let's all just be mindless drones that just get up, go work/school, eat, study go to bed.

Nothing else in between!

[SuBe]

Yes, let's all just be mindless drones that just get up, go work/school, eat, study go to bed.

Nothing else in between!
I graduated High School, and went into the Marine Corps. I don't see a reason to reserve 4 years of your life for Fun, when there are things for you to do. I won't ever mandate laws against it, but it's a personal belief.

[Franklin Richards]

And what about the kid who takes 4 years backpacking through the States and writes the Great American novel?

Isn't that a "thing to do"?


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[SuBe]

It's his choice, yes.

[SuperT]

My friend took a year off an backpacked around South America and my another two did some backpacking in Europe, man I was jealous.

I'm planning a trip to Costa Rica for a couple weeks. I hope it goes through!

[Lockandload1]

I know I'm taking this a little off because I'm talking about K-12, but still.
It's incredibly unequal. My county's high schools don't offer much, and every county has its own standards of learning, which is very confusing.

For example, you take x amount of courses in one county, right? Then you move to another county and depending on the circumstances, the credits may or may not count, meaning that you'll have to take extra and unneeded courses (or extend it past senior year) if you want to get "back on track" with your county. Some counties are ridiculously ahead of mine, and they always tend to be the ones with more affluent residents.

And, of course, the better-off counties get higher stats, as well as less of this BS.

Now, I understand why the richer counties get better options, but it's ridiculous here. Besides, no one told the county that they had to get so behind on teaching the kids.

[WompuM]

How about getting a teacher's license or certificate? Make it easier for people to earn their teaching certificate, suddenly there will be a greater number of teachers.

Here are some exerts from an interesting article called the Quarterback Problem by Malcolm Gladwell.

This is the quarterback problem. There are certain jobs where almost nothing you can learn about candidates before they start predicts how they’ll do once they’re hired. So how do we know whom to choose in cases like that? In recent years, a number of fields have begun to wrestle with this problem, but none with such profound social consequences as the profession of teaching.

This idea goes back to instances where rookie NFL quarterbacks, who for all purposes, should be a star, but end up flopping. If you want to get econometric,
Performance = B0 + B1*College stats + B2*College record + B3*Health + u

Where all of B1, B2, and B3 indicate success, and yet some unforseen element of u causes failure. Anyway, that's just me being bored in econometrics class. Back to education.

What the Quarterback problem shows is that no matter how accredited a prospect teacher may seem,with degrees, certificates, and what have you, nothing will prove he/she is a good teacher until she is actually in the classroom.

That is where alternative teaching certification comes in. Alternate methods, such as they are using in Denver, put the focus on classroom experience rather than test scores when determining certification. Some of these are gaining popularity, such as Teach for America.

Lowering barriers to certification will allow a greater number of teachers, thus creating competition among teachers, allowing more qualified, overall better teachers to receive higher pay. Of course, teachers union want no part in these alternative methods.

[WompuM]

Here's a link btw. An interesting read.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/12/15/081215fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=1

[danielisthor]

And what about the kid who takes 4 years backpacking through the States and writes the Great American novel?

Isn't that a "thing to do"?


:thing: :doom: :thing:

It's his choice, yes.

As long as my tax dollars don't go to support his decision to be backpacking author/bum for 4 years. Have at it. Pelosi would probably sneak that into a stimulus package.

[danielisthor]

I remember being in 4th grade, when we moved back to Florida from Pennsylvania. We were using the same text books, but in Florida I was literally 5 weeks ahead of them in my spelling, math, english, etc. etc. etc.

I think we need to have some form of standards, but I'm fairly certain I don't want the Federal Government or the Teachers Union having anything to do it.

[WompuM]

Then who exactly will be in charge of standardization?

This seems to be an issue of school districts. In the US during WWII, there were over 100,000 school district, and each one was privately funded by local taxes. Well, privately being a relative term there. You know what I mean. Anyway, today there are less than 14,000 school districts in the U.S. Larger amounts of children in a school district means allocation of funds is going to be less efficient and overall education will decline.

It also increases the gap between poor schools and rich schools even further. Rich schools, where rich people pay high property taxes, can have low student to teacher ratios and high levels of technology. Poor schools though suffer because low property taxes in the area result in overcrowding. And rich people are damn well not going to pay higher property taxes if their money isnt going to their own children's education, and why should they. The fewer, smaller school districts group the smaller rich schools together, and also the smaller poor schools together, and the misallocation of funds can be incredible.

Now, one solution for this, of course, is school choice. But of course, the children will actually need parents who wish them to succeed in order for school choice to work. Levitt has a great chapter about this in Freakonomics, where he discusses how unmotivated parents can derail the education of even the brightest kids, just by allowing them to stay in crappy schools.

[Kelly]

Then who exactly will be in charge of standardization?

This seems to be an issue of school districts. In the US during WWII, there were over 100,000 school district, and each one was privately funded by local taxes. Well, privately being a relative term there. You know what I mean. Anyway, today there are less than 14,000 school districts in the U.S. Larger amounts of children in a school district means allocation of funds is going to be less efficient and overall education will decline.

It also increases the gap between poor schools and rich schools even further. Rich schools, where rich people pay high property taxes, can have low student to teacher ratios and high levels of technology. Poor schools though suffer because low property taxes in the area result in overcrowding. And rich people are damn well not going to pay higher property taxes if their money isnt going to their own children's education, and why should they. The fewer, smaller school districts group the smaller rich schools together, and also the smaller poor schools together, and the misallocation of funds can be incredible.

Now, one solution for this, of course, is school choice. But of course, the children will actually need parents who wish them to succeed in order for school choice to work. Levitt has a great chapter about this in Freakonomics, where he discusses how unmotivated parents can derail the education of even the brightest kids, just by allowing them to stay in crappy schools.


There are already National Standards for every subject, its just that right now, each state has their own version of them (but all are related to these standards). The problem is some states use a watered down version of the standards, along with an easier test to pump their statistics up to keep getting federal funding, while other states tests like New Yorks an Texas have harder tests, and stick closer to the National Standards and get penalized when their students don't perform as well on their state's tests.

[WompuM]

National standards. The thorn in our sides. Should there be basic standards, for basic literacy and math skills? Yes. But the majority of standards should be set by local municipalities.

[Kelly]

National standards. The thorn in our sides. Should there be basic standards, for basic literacy and math skills? Yes. But the majority of standards should be set by local municipalities.

Have you ever read the National Standards for each of the subjects?

That's a rhetorical question, I'm sure you haven't, because if you had you would understand that they do a very good job of giving schools a strong basic understanding of what ALL U.S. students should know about Math, Science, History and ELA....AND it does give leeway to each state's own state history etc.

It is each state's interpretation of those standards that are the problem....Some have come up with their own, the statistics show it.....

[WompuM]

What's your solution? More national control?

[Carcharodon]

Now, one solution for this, of course, is school choice. But of course, the children will actually need parents who wish them to succeed in order for school choice to work. Levitt has a great chapter about this in Freakonomics, where he discusses how unmotivated parents can derail the education of even the brightest kids, just by allowing them to stay in crappy schools....so what happens when the better schools become overcrowded? Ultimately the quality of education there will be affected. Students will become displaced into the crappy schools, and the problem isn't actually solved. Instead, you're really just making the better schools worse.

It's a non-solution.

[WompuM]

So bright children should get stuck in bad schools because their parents happen to live in a lower-class area? I'm not saying bus all the poor kids to the rich neighborhoods, but have the option for choice available.

[Carcharodon]

So bright children should get stuck in bad schools because their parents happen to live in a lower-class area? I'm not saying bus all the poor kids to the rich neighborhoods, but have the option for choice available.What the hell option do you think they're going to choose? If there's honestly a way to make it feasible for a choice to be made in the matter, do you really think they'll vote to have their kid stay in the crappy school?

Don't give me that, "So bright children should get stuck in bad schools because their parents happen to live in a lower-class area?" crap, I'm not saying it's right that it happens. It's terrible.

I AM saying that I don't think the solution you mentioned can actually work. It underestimates the desire of parents for their kids to get an education, to be frank.

[Kelly]

What's your solution? More national control?

If the government is going to allocate federal money according to test scores, attendance, etc....then those tests need to be the same, teaching the same standards. It is extremely unfair to states like New York and Texas that hold their students to a higher standard, than California, and California ends up getting as much or more Federal Funding than the states that hold their students to a higher standard.

1. Honestly, you want to make school better. Then the school districts need to grow some balls, and when a parent screams UNFAIR, UNFAIR, because their child has been held to high standards....stand behind and support the teacher that is doing his/her job and let the parent sue if they want to go that far.....but nooooooooo, the district caves, the grade is changed, or the discipline is thrown out, and you now have a stupid delinquent graduating, looks like another great citizen coming out of our public schools...

2. Colleges need to teaching stupid classes in curriculum (since all school are different) get those students into the classrooms helping real teachers and seeing what they do, getting hands on training, and learning if education is REALLY what they want to do. 14 weeks of student teaching doesn't give you a good enough idea...

3. Pay teachers what they are worth, instead of system that looks more like communism than free market competition in the job place.

4. Go back to tracking. If a student wants to go to college then begin their high school career on that track. If they plan on going into the business world at an entry level, or to a Junior College/tech college, etc for a 2 year associate degree...then move them in that direction.

5. Stop moving bad teachers from district to district. Allow principals to let other principals know that the reason he teacher is no longer with his/her district is because they are not good teachers, they are unprofessional, they have absolutely no classroom management, etc.

[WompuM]

If you do something as simple as have a few forms to fill out for the parents, a lot of parents wont bother. There are a ton of lazy as **** parents out there who don't want to life a damn finger.

[Kelly]

If you do something as simple as have a few forms to fill out for the parents, a lot of parents wont bother. There are a ton of lazy as **** parents out there who don't want to life a damn finger.


:huh::huh:

[WompuM]

If the government is going to allocate federal money according to test scores, attendance, etc....then those tests need to be the same, teaching the same standards. It is extremely unfair to states like New York and Texas that hold their students to a higher standard, than California, and California ends up getting as much or more Federal Funding than the states that hold their students to a higher standard.

1. Honestly, you want to make school better. Then the school districts need to grow some balls, and when a parent screams UNFAIR, UNFAIR, because their child has been held to high standards....stand behind and support the teacher that is doing his/her job and let the parent sue if they want to go that far.....but nooooooooo, the district caves, the grade is changed, or the discipline is thrown out, and you now have a stupid delinquent graduating, looks like another great citizen coming out of our public schools...

2. Colleges need to teaching stupid classes in curriculum (since all school are different) get those students into the classrooms helping real teachers and seeing what they do, getting hands on training, and learning if education is REALLY what they want to do. 14 weeks of student teaching doesn't give you a good enough idea...

3. Pay teachers what they are worth, instead of system that looks more like communism than free market competition in the job place.

4. Go back to tracking. If a student wants to go to college then begin their high school career on that track. If they plan on going into the business world at an entry level, or to a Junior College/tech college, etc for a 2 year associate degree...then move them in that direction.

5. Stop moving bad teachers from district to district. Allow principals to let other principals know that the reason he teacher is no longer with his/her district is because they are not good teachers, they are unprofessional, they have absolutely no classroom management, etc.

I'm assuming your talking about kids seeking education degrees here and I couldnt agree more. This is where alternative teaching certification comes in. It will create better teachers and more competition among teachers (assuming no drastic rebuttle from teaching unions, which there will be)

[WompuM]

:huh::huh:

That was answering Carcharodon's question.
When dealing with school choice. Stick with the standard school disticts for starters, but then if you wish to move your child to another school, make it somewhat of a process so it will actually take ambition on the parent's part to move their child.

[Kelly]

I'm assuming your talking about kids seeking education degrees here and I couldnt agree more. This is where alternative teaching certification comes in. It will create better teachers and more competition among teachers (assuming no drastic rebuttle from teaching unions, which there will be)

We have been a part of ACP programs for about 7 years now. Alternative certifications put them INTO a classroom with NOOOOO experience whatsoever, and they are payed as much as a first year teacher that has gone through an education program in college. Some of these people are straight out of the business world, have lost their job, have absolutely no experience with kids......but they do have a degree. NOT GOOD.......

What I'm talking about is college classes, that put their students into classrooms to get the experience they need with kids.....NOT someone straight out of the business world, with a degree, taking education classes on the weekend, or online.....and in a classroom to fend for themselves, and get paid for it.

Right now most of your college education programs require around 60+ hours of observation time in the classroom. Instead of having them just "observe" have them in with a teacher for those 60 hours, getting hands on training.

Those that are going into ACP programs, need to be put into a substitute teaching capacity, and allow them to get some experience.

Out of the 15 ACP teachers that have come through my department....6 of them are still teaching. Most of the others went back into the business world where they came from. 3 quit, WALKED OUT.....because they couldn't handle the classroom management part of their job. 2 never passed the TExES Pedagogy and Professional Responsibilities Test for their full certification. One left because he was watching porn on his school computer....:whatever:....1 got pregnant and decided to stay at home. 1 ended up at another school after we fired him for cussing out a student in the classroom. I'm not sure about the rest.

Our school is typical of most urban schools with a diverse demographic. If the person has never worked with kids, and they are suddenly thrown into a classroom through an ACP program.....it is sink or swim, and thats not always the best way to learn.


What I mean from a different college experience as far as education, is to give them more opportunity to get "in the classroom, hands on" training.....not, give them all the responsibility of a classroom teacher and hope for the best. Most of your schools CANNOT, afford to pay 2 teachers in a classroom, for one of them to learn the art of teaching.

[Paradoxium]

Honestly, I get this feeling teaching - or the ability to do this - can't be certified or taught. It's the same thing as say teaching "leadership"... it's more of a personality thing. I am sure there are basic etiquette and guidelines to go by, but they are not like brain surgery or something.

[Kelly]

Honestly, I get this feeling teaching - or the ability to do this - can't be certified or taught. It's the same thing as say teaching "leadership"... it's more of a personality thing. I am sure there are basic etiquette and guidelines to go by, but they are not like brain surgery or something.


You're right, and any program that puts a person into a classroom with no experience, payed, and only a mentor (who has their own classes to teach) will have a large failure rate IMO. And many ACP programs do.....that is why, having something like what I described...(early on in their college career) can help them to

1. understand what they are truly getting into...
2. help realize that this IS NOT what they want to do...
3. help them realize that that is EXACTLY what they want to do, and hopefully make the rest of their college career something that helps them to work toward being the best teacher they can be....

[Carcharodon]

If you do something as simple as have a few forms to fill out for the parents, a lot of parents wont bother. There are a ton of lazy as **** parents out there who don't want to life a damn finger.There are a lot of parents out there like that, sure. I think you're grossly underestimating the number of parents that would "lif[t] a damn finger," however, and I think that's why the plan will fail. Even at its most successful, it's self-defeating.

[WompuM]

I don't think so. If these parents would bother, wouldn't they be taking steps now to take their children out of failing schools?

[Carcharodon]

I don't think so. If these parents would bother, wouldn't they be taking steps now to take their children out of failing schools?Yeah, because parents in low-income communities have so much choice, right? It's the parents' laziness that's to blame. Besides, the good schools have infinite resources and funding. They can totally take the overflow.

We can look at your solution one of two ways:

1) Parents really DO tend to be as lazy as you say (which I still believe to be ********), in which case very few children would actually make the switch. How is the problem fixed, again?

2) Parents DON'T adhere to your assumption, and a large volume of children flood the so-called "good" schools, leading to highly increased student-to-teacher ratios and an overall lowering of the quality of education in general.

Either the plan doesn't work at all (i.e., the problem still largely exists), or it becomes successful enough to cripple itself.

[SuBe]

If they have Vouchers that follow the students, and Funding increases or decreases depending on student Population, then it would be easier for Poor Families to get their Kid to what ever school they wanted.

[Carcharodon]

If they have Vouchers that follow the students, and Funding increases or decreases depending on student Population, then it would be easier for Poor Families to get their Kid to what ever school they wanted.I definitely think they should re-evaluate school funding policies across the board. Hell, it might actually be cheaper and more effective to just improve the quality of the schools we already have.

[Carcharodon]

Also, what do you guys think of No Child Left Behind? I'm really interested to see what Kel has to say about it.

[SuBe]

I definitely think they should re-evaluate school funding policies across the board. Hell, it might actually be cheaper and more effective to just improve the quality of the schools we already have.
Yes, so would I, but if we learned anything from these Bank Bailouts, and Auto Bailouts, and AIG bailouts: You can't put money into a Black Hole and expect a Rainbow.

[Kelly]

Also, what do you guys think of No Child Left Behind? I'm really interested to see what Kel has to say about it.


Well, basically NCLB IS leaving children behind. Those that are gifted and talented.....in order for states to hit the mark on their "state made" tests, they are dumbing down the curriculum, and tests so that the kids can pass, move forward, graduate and become stupid graduates. So as we pick up and carry the special services students, we are forgetting about the GT students, because YES they are passing with everyone else, but they ARE NOT being challenged.....and we are now in a "brain drain" scenario of students who have everything spooned fed to them, absolutely no desire to take initiative, and always asking...."Do we have to do the critical thinking questions?" Sooo, in short, we are ahead of the world in education until our kids hit 5th grade, and while we are trying not to leave children behind here in the U.S.....the rest of the world from 6th grade on, are leaving us behind.:csad:

[Franklin Richards]

Education in Texas is about to move back to the Bronze Age.


Texas : Saved to Doomed in just 6 hours. (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/26/texas-from-saved-to-doomed-in-just-6-hours/)


Well, that was fast.

Texas Board of Education creationist Barbara Cargill today proposed an amendment to the science standards saying that teachers have to tell their students there are different estimates for the age of the Universe. This is not even a veiled attempt to attack the Big Bang model of the Universe, which clearly, and through multiple lines of evidence, indicates the Universe is 13.7 +/- 0.12 billion years old.

So Ms. Cargill is right, if she means that "different estimates" range from 13.58 to 13.82 (given one standard deviation) billion years old.

But she doesn’t mean that at all, does she? If you read her website, you’ll see she’s an out-and-out creationist. She has a large number of, um, factual errors on her site that are clearly right out of the Creationist Obscurational Handbook.

Anyway, her antiscience amendment passed 11 - 3.

So tomorrow that will go to the final vote on whether it will be added to the standards or not. With such a majority voting to pass it along, it looks like it will pass, and Texas students will get their chance to learn that the Universe is 6000 years old, and when they try to get a job or do anything later in life, they will be routinely laughed at.

That’s great, Texas! Keep on keepin’ on.


Check out her website too. Great reading. NOT.




:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Hobgoblin]

Jack Cafferty seems like a fear monger sometimes but I like a lot of what he says in this book excerpt.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/03/30/cafferty.schools/index.html

Below is an excerpt from CNN commentator Jack Cafferty's new book, "Now or Never." Cafferty appears daily in "The Situation Room" on CNN from 4 to 7 p.m. ET.
In his new book, "Now or Never," Jack Cafferty says our schools don't measure up.

In his new book, "Now or Never," Jack Cafferty says our schools don't measure up.

(CNN) -- Call it another piece of evidence that this once great nation of ours is crumbling: Half of us believe our schools deserve a C or a D for the job they do preparing kids for higher education and making a go of it as grownups in the work force.

So said an Associated Press survey in summer 2008. The AP reported U.S. kids are scoring in the bottom half of the pack when measured against kids from other nations. President Obama's Department of Education (DOE) brain trust has their homework cut out for them if they plan on boosting the grades our schools earn while educating our kids.

Getting our kids through school has become a challenging, complex job that most folks say must begin at home with discipline, parental guidance, and closer attention to our kids' needs.

Obama said it simply in his final debate with John McCain: Unplug those video games, mom and dad, put other distractions away, and get down to work with your kids. Here's a guy who had no father around, basically; who was raised by a single white mother (helped by his white grandmother), sometimes on food stamps; and who became a star at Harvard Law School. So it can be done.
'Now or Never'
Jack's new book: "Now or Never: Getting Down to the Business of Saving Our American Dream"
Excerpt: Cafferty: 'Living a lie and a scary double life' »

We've witnessed the decline of the importance of schooling in far too many homes. Learning must be a top priority for parents. But in today's brutal economy, breadwinners are forced to work two jobs, two parents sweat to keep their jobs and homes, and the kids get left unsupervised. They go online, text their pals, stare at the tube (or YouTube), and play video games. They're not dashing out to the public library to research renewable fuels or Renaissance history.

One major bone of contention among parents and educators was Bush's 2001 No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act, whose focus was squarely on standardized, multiple-choice test scores in Math and English rather than on the quality (and deeper grasp by the student) of the curriculum. Video Cafferty discusses book on "The Situation Room" »

Soon Congress was seeking authorization to pay bonuses up to $10,000 to reward outstanding teachers whose students excel -- one incentive to stem the flight of top teachers from our schools. Even in grades one through three, Bush's NCLB got into trouble. Reading First, the much-touted $1 billion-a-year reading program and NCLB cornerstone for 1.5 million kids in 5,200 schools, proved ineffective.
Don't Miss

* Jack's book 'Now or Never'
* Learn more about Jack Cafferty
* The Situation Room

Worse, in 2006, the DOE's inspector general found that several top program advisers benefited financially by steering states and school districts to certain tests and texts tied to Reading First materials. The result: Congress slashed Reading First's $1 billion funding in 2007 to $400 million. Our kids paid quite a price for that mess.

I did an April 2008 "Cafferty File" piece that began, "The education crisis in America's largest cities is assuming frightening proportions. Only about half of all students who attend the main school systems in the 50 largest cities actually graduate from high school." It was a "coin toss," according to the non-profit Editorial Projects in Education (EPE) Research Center. Nationally, the figure for dropouts was nearly one in three. The group's founding chairman, former Secretary of State Colin Powell, called the situation-1.2 million dropouts a year-"not just a crisis, but a catastrophe." Main school districts in Detroit, Indianapolis, Cleveland, and Baltimore all had graduation averages below 40 percent, Detroit's being 25 percent.

The real threat to the United States, I said in another piece on "dropout factories," where less than 60 percent graduate (one in 10 schools qualify), is that our kids can't cut it against kids schooled in today's emerging economies. How can they compete globally, I asked, when barely half of the kids in our largest cities even graduate?

Aron from Toronto wrote, "You're kidding, right? That ship has sailed. As one who traveled 200,000 miles on business last year, I can tell you for certain that the world places no hope, no weight upon America's youth making even a future ripple in the global waters ... Having visited the top public schools in India and China, I can assure you that the future for America's youth is much bleaker than even the greatest skeptics could imagine."

One underlying problem in public education is that the system has morphed into this giant government bureaucracy that sucks up billions and billions of dollars for everything except teaching children reading, writing, and arithmetic (and sciences). We pay school administrators hundreds of thousands of dollars to preside over these failed enterprises that produce their share of functional illiterates.

Beyond imposing some learning-related discipline at home, parents might also seize the initiative by getting more involved: serving on the school board; volunteering, time permitting, to work at the local school with kids who need extra help. When that mind set of involvement spreads through the populace, change is more likely.

I've asked many "Cafferty File" questions (all drawn from the news) about our schools that never fail to trigger intense viewer concern: Birth control pills and maternity leave for pregnant girls? A ban on all school junk food? Mandatory Breathalyzer tests at school dances? In that instance, a New Jersey superintendent said recent events had left him no choice. His program's zero-tolerance message about alcohol was a way to improve the atmosphere for education.
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As Mark from Philadelphia wrote, "Having just been a high school student less than a year ago, I can tell you how rampant the alcohol and drug problem among our youth is. I can literally only name one peer of mine who has not done marijuana, and not one who has not drunk alcohol. This is just one necessary step in reforming our schools."

One "File" piece was inspired by a Chicago district that allowed the U.S. Marine Corps to run one of its high schools. Outrageous? Not to my viewers. Thomas in Florida wrote, "A high school where the students are required to be respectful of authority, that fosters an environment of personal discipline, academic and physical achievement -- sounds preposterous to me. You must be kidding. Why, before you know it, our nation might be churning out mannered, intelligent young adults again. Madison Avenue, Hollywood, and Wal-Mart would never stand for that." Greg in California wrote, "My daughter starts high school next year. Can they build one out here in Southern California by then?"

[Paradoxium]

Detroit parents want DPS teachers, officials jailed over low test scores (http://detnews.com/article/20091212/SCHOOLS/912120373/Detroit-parents-want-DPS-teachers--officials-jailed-over-low-test-scores) Impassioned parents demanded jail time for educators and district officials Saturday following the release of test scores that showed fourth- and eighth-graders had the worst math scores in the nation.

City students took the National Assessment of Educational Progress test this year, and 69 percent of fourth-graders scored below the basic level in math and 77 percent of eighth-graders scored below basic.

The Detroit scores on the progress test were the lowest in its 40-year history. The sample of students included 900 of Detroit's 6,000 fourth-graders and 1,000 of the district's 6,000 eighth-graders.

Sharlonda Buckman, CEO of the Detroit Parent Network, called for jailing and civil lawsuits against anyone in the city's educational system that is not doing his or her share to help properly educate children.

"Somebody needs to go to jail," she said in a tearful address to 500 parents gathered Saturday for the organization's annual breakfast forum. "Somebody needs to pay for this. Somebody needs to go to jail, and it shouldn't be the kids."

Detroit Public Schools Emergency Financial Manager Robert Bobb told the crowd the test scores weren't the result of children who were incompetent or parents who didn't care. He blamed the scores on the district not doing its job.

[Morg]

"Somebody needs to go to jail," she said in a tearful address to 500 parents gathered Saturday for the organization's annual breakfast forum. "Somebody needs to pay for this. Somebody needs to go to jail, and it shouldn't be the kids."

that would be the parents, if they actually get off their lazy ass and talk and teach the kids with the homework but nooooo! The teachers have to do everything

[Kelly]

How about...

1. Administration overseeing the teaching going on in the classroom, we call these evaluations...
2. Are the teachers using effective teaching methods, and classroom management methods so that the kids have the chance to learn...
3. What is the attendance of the students that failed...
4. What is the discipline record of the students that failed...
5. Did the students turn in homework, dailywork, participate in class, checking those that failed...

IF....a student has passed a teacher's class, yet fails the test....THEN you question the teacher only. Because something has happened....
1. the teacher is giving grades...
2. the teacher is not effectively teaching...

The teacher has a problem here.

Looks to me like there is very little administrative oversight going on, and I would be doing a few things as superintendent.

1. First answering the questions above...
2. If it is deemed to be a problem with the teacher, put the teacher on a growth plan....if that does not work, they are fired.

pretty simple to me...

[SuperFerret]

Whatever happened to children just being stupid and everyone accepting it?

[Paroxysm]

Whatever happened to children just being stupid and everyone accepting it?

I don't know? I think that died out in the 80's.

[dnno1]

I don't really have anything to say on this topic but Pamela Rogers Turner did deserve what she got (and she was gorgeous too).

[Kelly]

Whatever happened to children just being stupid and everyone accepting it?

I don't accept stupidity or ignorance in my classroom....doesn't compute.

[bell110]

I agree with Morg, jail the parents.

I find it funny they want JAIL time for this. I can't even get my head around that type of thinking. Judging by the Detroit Parenting Network's response, maybe people from Detroit are just dumb.

[Kelly]

Yeah, because jailing the parents will automatically fix the situation...

[bell110]

No, but it would be an awesome twist to a silly situation.

[echostation]

sending teachers and parents to jail is such a stupid concept... they need to pray, and pray well, by grace they will be saved...

[echostation]

sending teachers and parents to jail is such a stupid concept... they need to pray, and pray well, by grace they will be saved...

[Paradoxium]

How about sending politicians to jail if they don't balance the budget?

[Kelly]

How about sending politicians to jail if they don't balance the budget?


Oh hell yeah, we put court reporters in jail if they don't finish their job in a timely manner.....

[bell110]

How about we put SHH posters in jail if they use emoticons :wow:

[Kelly]

How about we put SHH posters in jail if they use emoticons :wow:


Opens cell door......

[hippie_hunter]

Poor Detroit, they just get everything crappy. Crappy economy, crappy Justice League, crappy football team, and now crappy teachers :(

[Kelly]

Poor Detroit, they just get everything crappy. Crappy economy, crappy Justice League, crappy football team, and now crappy teachers :(

There is actually a common thread in all of that, not just the word crappy.

I think that they are simply a result of crappy mind sets. Not everyone, I have friends that grew up in Detroit, but they got out at the earliest possible chance.

[Paradoxium]

Tomorrow's America :woot:

[Kelly]

Tomorrow's America :woot:

Not in my classroom, I think a major part of the problem in Detroit, and MUCH of the youth of America is apathy....

I'm grinding out "little activists" so leave me out of that future...

[Paradoxium]

They will be too busy being debt slaves before they can be legitimate activists.

[Kelly]

They will be too busy being debt slaves before they can be legitimate activists.

Ya never know....every good revolution started with intelligent young people, ready and willing to stand up and fight... We are about ready for another revolution.

I'll wave to you from the front lines....:cwink:

[hippie_hunter]

There is actually a common thread in all of that, not just the word crappy.
Hold on I have to think here. The auto industry. A Justice League that has Vibe and Vixen. The Detroit Lions. And Detroit Public Schools.

I don't get it :huh:

I think that they are simply a result of crappy mind sets.
Don't forget crappy rappers (Eminem), crappy movies (Robocop 3), and crappy mayors (Kwame Kilpatrick).

Not everyone, I have friends that grew up in Detroit, but they got out at the earliest possible chance.
Because it's Detroit :huh:

[Kelly]

Hold on I have to think here. The auto industry. A Justice League that has Vibe and Vixen. The Detroit Lions. And Detroit Public Schools.

I don't get it :huh:


Don't forget crappy rappers (Eminem), crappy movies (Robocop 3), and crappy mayors (Kwame Kilpatrick).


Because it's Detroit :huh:

I'm probably going to get totally slapped by someone from Detroit for saying this...

But, what I see is an air of entitlement in the adults (parents) and a massive amount of apathy in the students (which I see nationwide)...entitlement/apathy is the thread I see....Car Industry (yes, I believe unions have fed that...as well as looking to the government to get them out of something that their lifestyle got them into...)

*ducks and runs*

Oh, and don't get me wrong, teachers are totally a part of all of that....

Teacher's Unions have completely sucked the heart of teaching out of the teachers of today...because they have turned it into, what can "I" the teacher, get out of it...rather than the true service industry that it is....

[Paradoxium]

Ya never know....every good revolution started with intelligent young people, ready and willing to stand up and fight... We are about ready for another revolution.

I'll wave to you from the front lines....:cwink:I am not an activist kind of guy, or the type that would protest. It's not apathy either. I believe are alternatives to this... I just don't like mimicking progressive-esque tactics.

[Paradoxium]

I hear teachers are incredibly hard to "fire".

[MessiahDecoy123]

You want to discourage people from being teachers? Start sending them to prison for non-violent and non-sexual crimes.

[Kelly]

I hear teachers are incredibly hard to "fire".

Yes, most states require two years of documentation once the teacher has hit tenure...

If you don't get rid of your bad teachers within the first 3 years, you are screwed pretty much...

[Kelly]

You want to discourage people from being teachers? Start sending them to prison for non-violent and non-sexual crimes.

:huh::huh:

[Paradoxium]

I don't understand how they can get it like that. For nearly everyone else, getting fired is pretty simple.

[SuperFerret]

I don't accept stupidity or ignorance in my classroom....doesn't compute.

What if you do if the student is just naturally stupid, not just stupid because of laziness?

[Paradoxium]

Epic headache of a thousand headbutting ducks.

[bell110]

I don't understand how they can get it like that. For nearly everyone else, getting fired is pretty simple.

I don't think people are lining up and trying to bash in the doors to become teachers. If they get fired for simple reasons, there would probably be a severe lack of teachers.

So they fire every teacher in Detroit. Then what? Ship in teachers from other parts of the country? What if scores don't improve? Fire them too? Maybe the kids don't want to learn. You can lead a horse to water and all that.

[Paradoxium]

No I am referring to the general process of firing a teacher. It's almost impossible to fire one.

[Kelly]

What if you do if the student is just naturally stupid, not just stupid because of laziness?

Are you saying they have a learning disability?

[Kelly]

I don't think people are lining up and trying to bash in the doors to become teachers. If they get fired for simple reasons, there would probably be a severe lack of teachers.

So they fire every teacher in Detroit. Then what? Ship in teachers from other parts of the country? What if scores don't improve? Fire them too? Maybe the kids don't want to learn. You can lead a horse to water and all that.

Are you kidding? We are overflowing with people getting into the teaching field, it is one of the most stable jobs out there, and people are flying out of the private sector after getting laid off and getting into ACP programs all over the nation.....its pretty much the only thing hiring in alot of cities... unless you want work in the Dallas I.S.D. They laid off over 200 teachers, which is pretty much unheard of in the teaching field, but they have a group of idiots for a school board and an idiot for a Superintendent.

I have never met a student that "could not" learn...I have had students, that didn't want to, but there are ways to get past that...does it happen 100% of the time, no...but 95% of the time, yes. They may not pass with flying colors, out of the score of 2100, on the TAKS test that they must make to pass, it may only be 2100...but yeah, I can get pretty much any kid to that point....and I do. The Social Studies Department at my school has a 97% pass rate on the Social Studies TAKS test at the 10th and 11th grade levels. It can be done...and we have an "At Risk" % of over 90% of our students, also over 90% of our students are on "Free or Reduced Lunch" we are a fully funded Title 1 school. It can happen...

[Paradoxium]

One of the issues I have always had is how people like to group others into... groups. They stratify groups by race, class and IQ and try to "narrow a gap". Unfortunately when they narrow they sometimes do it at the detriment of another "group"

Take this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234906/State-schools-admit-push-gifted-pupils-dont-want-promote-elitism.html
As many as three-quarters of state schools are failing to push their brightest pupils because teachers are reluctant to promote 'elitism', an Ofsted study says today.

Many teachers are not convinced of the importance of providing more challenging tasks for their gifted and talented pupils.

Bright youngsters told inspectors they were forced to ask for harder work. Others were resentful at being dragooned into 'mentoring' weaker pupils.

In nearly three-quarters of 26 schools studied, pupils designated as being academically gifted or talented in sport or the arts were 'not a priority', Ofsted found.

Teachers feared that a focus on the brightest pupils would 'undermine the school's efforts to improve the attainment and progress of all other groups of pupils'. or this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/12/AR2009121201276.html
The picture across a six-year stretch isn't more encouraging. The gap separating white and black fourth-graders in 2003, when the first NAEP in the District was given, was 60 scale points (262 to 202). Although the scores achieved by children in both groups have increased during this period, the difference has barely narrowed to 58.

Some education advocates in the District expressed concern last week that the gains celebrated by Chancellor Michelle A. Rhee and Mayor Adrian M. Fenty (D) were propelled largely by white students who are already high achievers.

"It would suggest that we've raised the aggregate by treating those at the higher end of the scale, which is problematic and troublesome," said Jeff Smith, executive director of D.C. Voice, a nonprofit group that advocates for educational equality in the District.It frightens me they might try to dumb down the upper echelons in the class. For example, instead of raising black children's results, they opt to decline white kids.

[Kelly]

Oh, I agree......the "No Child Left Behind" has left children behind....the Gifted and Talented.....

[hippie_hunter]

Yes, most states require two years of documentation once the teacher has hit tenure...

If you don't get rid of your bad teachers within the first 3 years, you are screwed pretty much...

That's what happened in my school. I had a piss poor math teacher. Any time I went to her for help she basically gave me this "leave me the **** alone" vibe so I didn't even bother after a while, and wanted to be everyone's friend (which is not what I'm looking for in a teacher) talking more about her college days than actually teaching.

When I ended up in the lower ended math class even though I passed the test and class and whatnot, the teacher even said that I should not have been put in that class. Granted that math is my weakest subject, but when the teacher was busy helping people (and he was really good at that), people went to me because the class was just that ridiculously simple.

So basically just before she could get her tenure, they fired her ass because too many people were doing poorly in math.

But you also have to take a look at certain schools on whether or not they actually care for their students. My school did not, they were more concerned with getting funding and looking good with test scores than the actual students. They forced a teacher to pass a kid because they didn't want to deal with him anymore. They put people in classes where they didn't belong (like myself) just so test scores wouldn't be dragged down. They would keep schools open when it was snowing real bad and several buses went slid into ditches. And they served us freaking ketchup and rice :cmad:

[Kelly]

We had this meal, when I was in school...they called it a "Western Burger". What it actually was...was left over hamburger meat from earlier in the week. We always had them on Fridays, so it was the left over hamburger meat, ground up, and this sauce that was kind of like mustard, only it wasn't mustard...was mixed in, and they put it on a hamburger bun. It was like a yellow sloppy joe, instead of a reddish sloppy joe. lmao, it was so nasty....lol I think that's why I don't eat much meat today as an adult. I eat very little meat...maybe that is why. Maybe I need therapy because of the Western Burger...

[SuperFerret]

Are you saying they have a learning disability?

No, none of that psychobabble junk. I'm just talking flat out not smart.

[Paradoxium]

:barf:

I had a headache just imagining that weird yellow mess :cmad:

[Kelly]

No, none of that psychobabble junk. I'm just talking flat out not smart.


Well, usually if they are having trouble learning, they might in fact have some type of learning disability...

Different kids have different learning styles, when you put together your lessons, you make sure that all of those learning styles are hit, throughout the lesson. I don't think any student is just "stupid"...I'm not even sure what that means. They either don't care to learn, therefore...you might have to do some motivating. They may in fact have a learning disability, figuring that out is half the battle. I'm dyslexic, and I wasn't diagnosed until college...I just had to really work my ass off through school to make the grades... They may be behavioral problems, which I love, because they are a challenge...they little asses...:cwink: But, I don't believe that kids can "just be stupid". They may not be A or B students, but that doesn't make them stupid.

If they fail my class, it usually has nothing to do with their brain size, it has everything to do with attendance, getting daily work in, etc....

[Kelly]

:barf:

I had a headache just imagining that weird yellow mess :cmad:


lol, I'm telling ya, it was so nasty. Thank god I was an athlete, and we had tournaments on Fridays, so in season, I didn't have to eat that mess.

[SuperFerret]

Well, usually if they are having trouble learning, they might in fact have some type of learning disability...

Different kids have different learning styles, when you put together your lessons, you make sure that all of those learning styles are hit, throughout the lesson. I don't think any student is just "stupid"...I'm not even sure what that means. They either don't care to learn, therefore...you might have to do some motivating. They may in fact have a learning disability, figuring that out is half the battle. I'm dyslexic, and I wasn't diagnosed until college...I just had to really work my ass off through school to make the grades... They may be behavioral problems, which I love, because they are a challenge...they little asses...:cwink: But, I don't believe that kids can "just be stupid". They may not be A or B students, but that doesn't make them stupid.

If they fail my class, it usually has nothing to do with their brain size, it has everything to do with attendance, getting daily work in, etc....

I believe that people can be just plain stupid (and many are), and education and grades have nothing to do with it for the most part. Sure, there may be some that have motivation issues, or learning disabilities, or behavioural problems or a mix of those, but that doesn't apply to everyone, but nobody wants to say that someone is stupid because it's "mean".

Also, intelligence has no direct correlation with brain size.

[Paradoxium]

You mean low IQ to be even more blunt. Does that constitute as a disability or just well... stupid.

[Kelly]

I believe that people can be just plain stupid (and many are), and education and grades have nothing to do with it for the most part. Sure, there may be some that have motivation issues, or learning disabilities, or behavioural problems or a mix of those, but that doesn't apply to everyone, but nobody wants to say that someone is stupid because it's "mean".

Also, intelligence has no direct correlation with brain size.

Just as Dox said, are you talking about I.Q. because yes, I.Q. is a part of the diagnosticians evaluation of students with LD's.

And to answer your question, no...I do not believe that some students are just "stupid".

And yes, the brain size thing is pretty much a duh...if that were true, pigs would be smarter than you.

[SuperFerret]

You mean low IQ to be even more blunt. Does that constitute as a disability or just well... stupid.

IQ as in what those inaccurate tests tell you, or IQ as in a way to kinda sorta judge the nebulous thing that is intelligence?

Just as Dox said, are you talking about I.Q. because yes, I.Q. is a part of the diagnosticians evaluation of students with LD's.

And to answer your question, no...I do not believe that some students are just "stupid".

And yes, the brain size thing is pretty much a duh...if that were true, pigs would be smarter than you.

I tossed in the brain size thing because it's a pet peeve of mine, I knew what you meant. Anyway, pigs might be smarter, can't judge them based on human standards, because pigs don't need to read or do math. (Another pet peeve.)

[Kelly]

Of course there could be something to that brain size thing, because pigs are very organized.....

[Paradoxium]

IQ tests despite the imperfections, is probably he closes measure of intelligence.

[SuperFerret]

Pigs have to do pig things, and some pigs are better at these pig things than other pigs, and some are worse. Same with humans and every other species out there.

Kel, I realize that you are a teacher, and we'll probably not agree on this point because your job essentially requires a person who doesn't believe in the ability of a person to be stupid to do their job well. It's a sign of a good teacher to not give up on a student, and I completely understand and respect that.

[Kelly]

IQ tests despite the imperfections, is probably he closes measure of intelligence.

It really depends on the IQ test that you are using, and what information you want to glean from it.

[Paradoxium]

I haven't brushed up on the variety/topic of IQ tests. But, it goes without saying, I am not talking about 5 minute internet IQ tests.

[SuperFerret]

I don't have any faith in any sort of testing, as all they test is how well you take tests, providing that the tests are fair.

[Paradoxium]

Perhaps the g-factor is a better paradigm than say IQ.

[Kelly]

Pigs have to do pig things, and some pigs are better at these pig things than other pigs, and some are worse. Same with humans and every other species out there.

Kel, I realize that you are a teacher, and we'll probably not agree on this point because your job essentially requires a person who doesn't believe in the ability of a person to be stupid to do their job well. It's a sign of a good teacher to not give up on a student, and I completely understand and respect that.

In my 19 years of teaching, I can truthfully pin point why every student that failed my class........failed.

*apathy
*attendance
*undiagnosed learning disability (figured out too late in a few cases...)
*total disorganization, in that they did every single assignment, but didn't turn anything in...(I actually have a student right now in my Pre A.P. class that has a 52 average, we had a portfolio check yesterday, where they must have all of their assignments, and projects in the portfolio. He made a 90 on it....which means he has done pretty much every damn assignment, he just didn't turn them in....????? that confuses the hell out of me, and my class is not the only one.....NOW, you might call that stupid, and I might agree....lol, but I looked at his work, he did the work, for the most part, correct. He made an 80 on the Unit test....he will end up failing this six weeks, but I don't think its because he's stupid, I think there is possibly something wrong with this kid....really...

but, honestly, if I sat down with you and we went through all of the students who failed my class, I could probably pin point something that was the main factor, and I don't think that is just plain "stupidity". You might categorize some of the above as stupid, and that would be where we might differ...because all of those things, if the kid is willing, can be fixed.

The biggest hurdle/obstacle today in the classroom is attendance. It sucks with some of these kids.

In my mom's house, you had to either have a broken bone, sticking out of your body, bleeding that requires stitches, or a 101+ temperature before you even asked to stay home from school...

Attendance is probably the easiest area for a parent to help a teacher in, yet it is the biggest hurdle for me in teaching...

[bell110]

One of the issues I have always had is how people like to group others into... groups. They stratify groups by race, class and IQ and try to "narrow a gap". Unfortunately when they narrow they sometimes do it at the detriment of another "group"

Take this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234906/State-schools-admit-push-gifted-pupils-dont-want-promote-elitism.html
or this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/12/AR2009121201276.html
It frightens me they might try to dumb down the upper echelons in the class. For example, instead of raising black children's results, they opt to decline white kids.

Racism.

That's what happened in my school. I had a piss poor math teacher. Any time I went to her for help she basically gave me this "leave me the **** alone" vibe so I didn't even bother after a while, and wanted to be everyone's friend (which is not what I'm looking for in a teacher) talking more about her college days than actually teaching.

When I ended up in the lower ended math class even though I passed the test and class and whatnot, the teacher even said that I should not have been put in that class. Granted that math is my weakest subject, but when the teacher was busy helping people (and he was really good at that), people went to me because the class was just that ridiculously simple.

So basically just before she could get her tenure, they fired her ass because too many people were doing poorly in math.

But you also have to take a look at certain schools on whether or not they actually care for their students. My school did not, they were more concerned with getting funding and looking good with test scores than the actual students. They forced a teacher to pass a kid because they didn't want to deal with him anymore. They put people in classes where they didn't belong (like myself) just so test scores wouldn't be dragged down. They would keep schools open when it was snowing real bad and several buses went slid into ditches. And they served us freaking ketchup and rice :cmad:

Well, that sucks. I've never heard of a school that didn't care for their students.

Face it, school is an obsticle that kids don't want to go through.

Are you kidding? We are overflowing with people getting into the teaching field, it is one of the most stable jobs out there, and people are flying out of the private sector after getting laid off and getting into ACP programs all over the nation.....its pretty much the only thing hiring in alot of cities... unless you want work in the Dallas I.S.D. They laid off over 200 teachers, which is pretty much unheard of in the teaching field, but they have a group of idiots for a school board and an idiot for a Superintendent.

I have never met a student that "could not" learn...I have had students, that didn't want to, but there are ways to get past that...does it happen 100% of the time, no...but 95% of the time, yes. They may not pass with flying colors, out of the score of 2100, on the TAKS test that they must make to pass, it may only be 2100...but yeah, I can get pretty much any kid to that point....and I do. The Social Studies Department at my school has a 97% pass rate on the Social Studies TAKS test at the 10th and 11th grade levels. It can be done...and we have an "At Risk" % of over 90% of our students, also over 90% of our students are on "Free or Reduced Lunch" we are a fully funded Title 1 school. It can happen...

I don't know. I've always heard that teaching was a lacking field.

I'm not saying they can't learn. They just don't care. Even when I was in high school, no one wanted to be there. It was just something they had to do. I can't imagine how it is now.

And things might be better in Texas, but it's Detroit that they are talking about. Who knows how the kids there feel about school.

[Kelly]

The teaching field, is overflowing at the moment, but there is always a need for math teachers...the turn over in that discipline is bigger than all the others combined.

"No one" in your high school wanted to be there, that is very say...

I was speaking of my school, only because I was asked specific questions from SF.

[Ion Kenshin]

So the solution to kids not learning wel in school is to send the teachers to jail which means there is no one to teach the kids which means your kids stilll end up uneducated?? I'm glad they though all of that through...Morons. Here is the solution....Parents, turn off the ****ING TV AND TEACH YOUR ****ING KIDS. I don't know how many anecdotes you need....learning starts at home.....it takes a village to riase a child etc. get involved and not only when there is an issue. I wonder how many parents still sit down and help kids with homework these days. Parents just love passing the buck. When did their children not become their problem??

[Paradoxium]

The teaching field, is overflowing at the moment, but there is always a need for math teachers...the turn over in that discipline is bigger than all the others combined.

"No one" in your high school wanted to be there, that is very say...

I was speaking of my school, only because I was asked specific questions from SF.Haha math is such a dry subject. I'd sooner teach high school engineering and science.

[Kelly]

Haha math is such a dry subject. I'd sooner teach high school engineering and science.

Science is the 2nd in line for turn over rate behind Math...the thing about Science that is a problem these days, along with English, is for some reason those are now the areas that coaches are getting certified in....if a school in Texas needs a coach, and they can teach either of those, that coach will get the job. It use to be Social Studies, but right now at our high school, at the 9th grade level there are 5 teachers (no coaches), 10th grade level 5 teachers (1 coach), 11th 5 Teachers (1 coach) and 12th 3 teachers (no coaches)...a decade ago, that would have been about 3 coaches per level.

[Paradoxium]

You mean like a sports coach? They are not really good at it (teaching science) or something?

[Schlosser85]

Sending teachers to prison for low test scores?

Here's a thought.....how about sending the lazy bum parents to prison for child neglect because they sit on their fat asses all day watching television and don't know wtf is going on with their kids in the first place.

[LastSunrise1981]

It's funny how the parents are upset at the situation. Kids, in my opinion, have it a lot easier compared to some of us growing up.

When I was a kid my parents would have me read, do math, and sometimes write a report on what I read whether it'd be a newspaper article, a book, or a magazine. They wanted to see if I comprehended what I read in the story.

Not saying I am a genius or anything, but it all starts at home and while teachers have to bear some responsibility as well, it ultimately falls on the shoulders of the parents. I used to hate how my parents would force me to read a book, practice math, and writing but I appreciate what they did because it helped me be ahead of the competition in school.

Once again I am not saying I am better than this person or that person, however, parents need to stop looking at said person and need to start looking at themselves for the cause of their kids low test scores.

Stop taking your children to the movies first thing in the morning, stop taking your children to GameStop first thing after school, and how about stop sitting your children in front of the television and start explaining to them how important education is.

[Kelly]

You mean like a sports coach? They are not really good at it (teaching science) or something?

Uh?

Yes, they are coaches of different sports. In the past the majority of coaches taught in the field of Social Studies, History, etc....they all of the sudden have started now teaching Science and English...some are good, some are bad. If they are "teaching, coaches" then they can actually be some of your best teachers....if they are "coaching, teachers" they usually suck.

[Paradoxium]

I dunno, for some reason I thought it could mean something else.

Does say a coach who wants to teach math require a math major or background to do so? Are there any pay differences to say a neophyte grade 10 math teacher to a grade 10 english teacher?

[Kelly]

I dunno, for some reason I thought it could mean something else.

Does say a coach who wants to teach math require a math major or background to do so? Are there any pay differences to say a neophyte grade 10 math teacher to a grade 10 english teacher?


I don't know how it is in other states, but in the state of Texas, you have to have a Bachelor's degree, 24 college hours of Education courses and Certification in that area...

My degree is in Bachelor of Science in Criminal Law with minor in Criminology and Sociology, and I have a Composite Social Studies Certification...grades 6 - 12.

So you don't necessarily have to have a degree in that specific area, but you have to have a very good knowledge of the area in order to pass the Certification test, which are very hard to pass without having a good number of college hours in that area.

[El_Citrus]

How about the people making all of these accusations about the teachers sit down and listen as to why the kids think they're failing first, then assessing the problem from there, not immediately firing the teachers? If the teachers are the problem, then by all means, get them out of there. The thing is, though, that there are dozens of other factors that contribute to it, like the growing admiriation for the "rags to riches" stories of celebrities/artists that dropped out of high school that has probably instilled a bit of delusion in a lot of kids that think they can do the same , and the advancement of "Instant Celebrity Status" that seems to be more accessible than ever.

Does anyone think there is a link to this and the psyche of the student? There are kids all across the country, especially in a city like Detroit, that don't think they're good enough to learn what's being taught. Some of it is apathy, and the student is just using "I can't learn this" as an excuse, but some have it imprinted into their brains that they can't because of a lack of education in their family or lack of confidence in them from their family, and even the friends they hang around.


The people getting irate at the teachers should sit down and talk to the kids, first, before calling for their teachers' heads.

[Carcharodon]

Wouldn't "No Child Left Behind" make areas like Detroit worse and worse in terms of education? They're doing poorly, they get less funding, so they do even worse, and get even less funding, etc. Is there any way to tie NCLB to this particular failure?

[El_Citrus]

Absolutely. One of my teachers back in high school absolutely despised NCLB because of how it punishes a school for not producing numbers, which then forces either A) Them to do worse and get even less funding, or B) Lower their standards to get the numbers for funding.

[Grievous]

I don't know? I think that died out in the 80's.
yeah in this day in time parents will freak if their child fails any form of test, thinking that it's the teacher's fault that their child won't get a good job because of them. All I can say about this story is it should be looked into but no way should anyone face jail time over something this small.

[Kelly]

Wouldn't "No Child Left Behind" make areas like Detroit worse and worse in terms of education? They're doing poorly, they get less funding, so they do even worse, and get even less funding, etc. Is there any way to tie NCLB to this particular failure?

Possibly, but in losing funding is not automatic...it takes upwards of 4 years before a school will begin losing funding. Also, you will have auditors come into your school for two years and look at how the money is being used. IF THE MONEY is not being used in a manner that will lead to helping the students, then yes that funding CAN be pulled. As I said, that is not automatic....

Normally you will test, and be rated...if your school is rated unacceptable 2 years in a row, then the state sends people in to see what is going on, and the specific areas that moved you to an unacceptable rating. They observe for a year, give suggestions where the school can improve, etc. Then they look at the 3rd years test scores, if they are still unacceptable, then auditors come in and begin looking at where the money is being spent. Begin, looking at specific departments, and send in specialists for those areas. The tests come along again, and if they are still unacceptable, then teachers will begin losing jobs, administrators will begin losing jobs, and funding is then looked at to be pulled or moved. If after another year of unacceptable ratings, that school could, and it is a big COULD be closed, and reopened under a brand new staff.

[roach]

It's funny how the parents are upset at the situation. Kids, in my opinion, have it a lot easier compared to some of us growing up.

When I was a kid my parents would have me read, do math, and sometimes write a report on what I read whether it'd be a newspaper article, a book, or a magazine. They wanted to see if I comprehended what I read in the story.

Not saying I am a genius or anything, but it all starts at home and while teachers have to bear some responsibility as well, it ultimately falls on the shoulders of the parents. I used to hate how my parents would force me to read a book, practice math, and writing but I appreciate what they did because it helped me be ahead of the competition in school.

Once again I am not saying I am better than this person or that person, however, parents need to stop looking at said person and need to start looking at themselves for the cause of their kids low test scores.

Stop taking your children to the movies first thing in the morning, stop taking your children to GameStop first thing after school, and how about stop sitting your children in front of the television and start explaining to them how important education is.

hell during the summer months I would have to go to the library and do book reports for my mom...she was a teacher:csad:

[Hound55]

Chemical castration for any parent who suggests jail time for these teachers and chemical castration for their kids.

The problem will then sort itself out within 20 years...

[roach]

so pretty much just wipe out Detroit

[Sloth7d]

Hold on I have to think here. The auto industry. A Justice League that has Vibe and Vixen. The Detroit Lions. And Detroit Public Schools.

I don't get it :huh:


Don't forget crappy rappers (Eminem), crappy movies (Robocop 3), and crappy mayors (Kwame Kilpatrick).


Because it's Detroit :huh:

Let's not get carried away now.

[roach]

Detroit is like the Jerry Springer show....you dont watch it to see if people's problems get solved...you watch to see people who are more f@$%^d up than yourself....Detroit gives us the grade curve

[Carcharodon]

Possibly, but in losing funding is not automatic...it takes upwards of 4 years before a school will begin losing funding. Also, you will have auditors come into your school for two years and look at how the money is being used. IF THE MONEY is not being used in a manner that will lead to helping the students, then yes that funding CAN be pulled. As I said, that is not automatic....

Normally you will test, and be rated...if your school is rated unacceptable 2 years in a row, then the state sends people in to see what is going on, and the specific areas that moved you to an unacceptable rating. They observe for a year, give suggestions where the school can improve, etc. Then they look at the 3rd years test scores, if they are still unacceptable, then auditors come in and begin looking at where the money is being spent. Begin, looking at specific departments, and send in specialists for those areas. The tests come along again, and if they are still unacceptable, then teachers will begin losing jobs, administrators will begin losing jobs, and funding is then looked at to be pulled or moved. If after another year of unacceptable ratings, that school could, and it is a big COULD be closed, and reopened under a brand new staff.That was very informative. Thanks. :up:

I gather from this description that the schools are given ample opportunity to improve themselves before drastic measures are taken. However, I do see potential for strong negative impact in areas with a widespread problem with school performance. It would seem as though their options with respect to programs and staff were potentially limited to begin with.

[Kelly]

That was very informative. Thanks. :up:

I gather from this description that the schools are given ample opportunity to improve themselves before drastic measures are taken. However, I do see potential for strong negative impact in areas with a widespread problem with school performance. It would seem as though their options with respect to programs and staff were potentially limited to begin with.

I see where you are coming from...but test scores are so much more than funding...

The problem has to be looked at from a multitude of directions...

The parent: Parent involvement is very important. The majority of the time, the parent is simply not asked to be involved. We slam parent's involvement, but when auditors come into schools and look at the school's direction as far as parents, 90% of the time the school has 0% programs, incentive, or have even asked for parent involvement. The 9th grade campus I work on has 3x the parent involvement than the Senior High next door, and we have a 3rd of the students. Why? because we ask...

The student: I could probably get fired for even typing this word...lol, but "tracking" works. You put students in classes that is moving them toward their career goal, they will be creative, they will learn, and they will succeed. WITHIN those classes, whether it be Math, Science or ELA, of course include the National Standards, but spiral that into the curriculum that is moving that student towards college, towards junior college, toward a trade school, toward the business world, etc...IT WORKS...ask Europe.

The teacher: If the teacher sucks, fire them. Very simple solution to this problem.

The administration: If the administrator sucks, fire them. See above.

Oh, and don't just allow another school district to pick up the sucky teacher and admin. TELL THEM THEY SUCK.

Funding is the least of the problems...throwing money at it will not help until the above is taken care of, or at least moving that direction.

[Paradoxium]

I swear this is NOT the Onion or some parody site.

Berkeley High May Cut Out Science Labs (http://www.eastbayexpress.com/ebx/berkeley-high-may-cut-out-science-labs/Content?oid=1536705)Berkeley High School is considering a controversial proposal to eliminate science labs and the five science teachers who teach them to free up more resources to help struggling students.

The proposal to put the science-lab cuts on the table was approved recently by Berkeley High's School Governance Council, a body of teachers, parents, and students who oversee a plan to change the structure of the high school to address Berkeley's dismal racial achievement gap, where white students are doing far better than the state average while black and Latino students are doing worse.

Paul Gibson, an alternate parent representative on the School Governance Council, said that information presented at council meetings suggests that the science labs were largely classes for white students. He said the decision to consider cutting the labs in order to redirect resources to underperforming students was virtually unanimous.

[Bathead]

I'd be curious to hear what Berkley High is doing with it's sports program.

[Paradoxium]

Of all the god damn things they cut, it's the sciences. It is so crucial to applied sciences and engineering; stuff that contributes to society in an apolitical and meaningful manner. I am sure there are other areas that can take cuts instead. I am interested in finding out how much - right now - the school allocates their fiances to "struggling" students, and every major subject.

[Backdrifter]

I say cut gym class. I always thought Phys. Ed. was a total waste of time.

[Motown Marvel]

I'm probably going to get totally slapped by someone from Detroit for saying this...

But, what I see is an air of entitlement in the adults (parents) and a massive amount of apathy in the students (which I see nationwide)...entitlement/apathy is the thread I see....Car Industry (yes, I believe unions have fed that...as well as looking to the government to get them out of something that their lifestyle got them into...)

*ducks and runs*

Oh, and don't get me wrong, teachers are totally a part of all of that....

Teacher's Unions have completely sucked the heart of teaching out of the teachers of today...because they have turned it into, what can "I" the teacher, get out of it...rather than the true service industry that it is....

being from detroit, i can assure you that entitlement has little to do with any of it. as entirely ridiculous as it sounds, pretty much everything stems from the '67 riots. thats when everything initially got f**ked. and there has been decades of ripples from that which people have just been entirely too incompetent to fix.

apathy totally plays a role. but when everything gets so hopelessly beyond f**ked, apathy seems to be the most comfortable and reasonable reaction. why put the effort of hope into something that seems so clearly hopeless? i mean, the schools here are a total joke. how can someone actually feel the urge to learn when they're sharing ragged text books in a building with black mold and falling ceiling tiles and no working bathrooms or running water? how much effort is a teacher going to put into a broken classroom of apathetic kids who have essentially been pre-destined to fail? its a ridiculously awful and horrifying cycle that would take the will and effort of a god to break. to actually fix this would take such a monumental and organized communal effort lead by sheer brilliance of a competent leader....i dont think anyone even knows how that would work!

[LastSunrise1981]

You know, I think due to the fact that we're living in a politically correct society no one really wants to speak the truth. When I was in 5th grade my teacher Mrs. Hernandez told my mother to her face that "Your son is the laziest student I've ever taught and you need to change that."

Teachers back when I was growing up weren't afraid to speak their minds and actually cared about the student. Mrs. Hernandez was a strict, strong, and outspoken teacher. But she cared about the students and made sure the parents did what they were supposed to do.

My parents used to make me read, write, and do math. Every Sunday there was an article that I would have to read and at the end there were essay questions, multiple choice, or true and false questions. My mother would make me do this every Sunday. There was no going to the movies first thing in the morning or first thing after school, there was no video games after school, or hanging out with friends.

I was supposed to come home and do my homework, possibly study some more, and then I could go out. I am not saying it made me some boy genius but it helped me be more ahead of the students in class.

I am an employee at a movie theater and every day I see so many parents bring their kids to a movie after school or before school, taking them to GameStop, or basically just rewarding them without them having to do any kind of work whatsoever. There's no way a teacher like Mrs. Hernandez could tell a parents that their child is lazy and they need to make sure he studies, does his homework, and etc. That teacher would be fined, suspended, and fired due to the politcally correct society we live in now.

Teachers in my opinion should shoulder some of the blame. But parents need to stop sitting their kids in front of the television, make sure their homework is done, and stop rewarding them for bad grades. Kids today get bad grades and nothing is taken away. I remember in 10th grade I had 3 F's and my television, super nintendo, and vcr was taken away until I got better grades.

It pushed me to do better and kids today seem to have easier compared to some of us. Hell, I wish my parents took me to a movie first in the morning or first thing after school sometimes. Maybe I wouldn't be so bitter, uptight, or analytical. :cmad::o

However where I live in Sumter, South Carolina the entire state of South Carolina is ranked 2nd in terms of the worst educated in America. I have no idea what number 1 is and sometimes shudder to think what could be worse than Sumter.

[Kelly]

You know, I think due to the fact that we're living in a politically correct society no one really wants to speak the truth. When I was in 5th grade my teacher Mrs. Hernandez told my mother to her face that "Your son, is the laziest student I've ever taught and you need to change that."

Teachers back when I was growing up weren't afraid to speak their minds and actually cared about the student. Mrs. Hernandez was a strict, strong, and outspoken teacher. But she cared about the students and made sure the parents did what they were supposed to do.

My parents used to make me read, write, and do math. Every Sunday there was an article that I would have to read and at the end there were essay questions, multiple choice, or true and false questions. My mother would make me do this every Sunday. There was no going to the movies first thing in the morning or first thing after school, there was no video games after school, or hanging out with friends.

I was supposed to come home and do my homework, possibly study some more, and then I could go out. I am not saying it made me some boy genius but it helped me be more ahead of the students in class.

I am an employee at a movie theater and every day I see so many parents bring their kids to a movie after school or before school, taking them to GameStop, or basically just rewarding them without them having to do any kind of work whatsoever. There's no way a teacher like Mrs. Hernandez could tell a parents that their child is lazy and they need to make sure he studies, does his homework, and etc. That teacher would be fined, suspended, and fired due to the politcally correct society we live in now.

Teachers in my opinion should shoulder some of the blame. But parents need to stop sitting their kids in front of the television, make sure their homework is done, and stop rewarding them for bad grades. Kids today get bad grades and nothing is taken away. I remember in 10th grade I had 3 F's and my television, super nintendo, and vcr was taken away until I got better grades.

It pushed me to do better and kids today seem to have easier compared to some of us. Hell, I wish my parents took me to a movie first in the morning or first thing after school sometimes. Maybe I wouldn't be so bitter, uptight, or analytical. :cmad::o

You have restated what has been stated here several times, it is a problem that has to be hit from many sides...

As far as teachers speaking out, we are not free to do that because administration usually does not back teachers in areas like this when the parent begins to cry foul. As soon as a parent mentions "going to the school board..." the principal, asst. superintendent, and superintendent cave...pretty much every time. When you get slammed like that with no backing a few times you tend to not speak out anymore.

Its not as easy as...hey teachers just need to speak up. If it were that easy, I can assure you it would be happening on a regular basis.

[LastSunrise1981]

You have restated what has been stated here several times, it is a problem that has to be hit from many sides...

As far as teachers speaking out, we are not free to do that because administration usually does not back teachers in areas like this when the parent begins to cry foul. As soon as a parent mentions "going to the school board..." the principal, asst. superintendent, and superintendent cave...pretty much every time. When you get slammed like that with no backing a few times you tend to not speak out anymore.

Its not as easy as...hey teachers just need to speak up. If it were that easy, I can assure you it would be happening on a regular basis.

So once again, it pretty much proves that due to the politically correct society we live in nothing can be said? I am studying to be a teacher myself and I think it's pretty ridiculous that in your case no one will back you up.

Kids are spoiled these days and I think the school board needs to grow a back bone and actually say what no one else will say.

[Kelly]

So once again, it pretty much proves that due to the politically correct society we live in nothing can be said? I am studying to be a teacher myself and I think it's pretty ridiculous that in your case no one will back you up.

Kids are spoiled these days and I think the school board needs to grow a back bone and actually say what no one else will say.

Politically correct would mean that the parent, admin, teacher etc. would say nothing to the student because we don't want to hurt the child's feelings etc...that has nothing to do with it...

1. To "some" parents, their children do no wrong, because the parent told their teachers to go to hell, the child is just following in the parent's footsteps...

2. The administration just don't want the crap from the parent, and it makes them look bad...and some parents actually start crying lawyer and that totally freaks school districts out, even though in most districts the school district could wipe the floor with the parent, but won't, again because of bad press...

3. The teacher's hands are tied...we can say something, but its not going to get us anywhere...


My case? lmao, I've been teaching for almost 20 years....I can say whatever the hell I want to say as long as it is in a professional manner, and I can document my actions (documentation is the key, never forget that). I don't give a crap if I'm backed or not. I have been in the same district for those 20 years, I've gone through 4 Superintendents, 5 Principals, don't even remember the number of Asst. Principals, and I've taught every child of every school board member that has sat on the board during those 20 years....I've done my time, and know what to say and when to say it... But, you in your first 5 years of teaching, good luck finding a school that won't send you packing the first time you open your mouth. You'll finish the year, but you won't be asked back.

[LastSunrise1981]

Politically correct would mean that the parent, admin, teacher etc. would say nothing to the student because we don't want to hurt the child's feelings etc...that has nothing to do with it...

1. To "some" parents, their children do no wrong, because the parent told their teachers to go to hell, the child is just following in the parent's footsteps...

2. The administration just don't want the crap from the parent, and it makes them look bad...and some parents actually start crying lawyer and that totally freaks school districts out, even though in most districts the school district could wipe the floor with the parent, but won't, again because of bad press...

3. The teacher's hands are tied...we can say something, but its not going to get us anywhere...


My case? lmao, I've been teaching for almost 20 years....I can say whatever the hell I want to say as long as it is in a professional manner, and I can document my actions (documentation is the key, never forget that). I don't give a crap if I'm backed or not. I have been in the same district for those 20 years, I've gone through 4 Superintendents, 5 Principals, don't even remember the number of Asst. Principals, and I've taught every child of every school board member that has sat on the board during those 20 years....I've done my time, and know what to say and when to say it... But, you in your first 5 years of teaching, good luck finding a school that won't send you packing the first time you open your mouth. You'll finish the year, but you won't be asked back.

So pretty much it's a no win situation? It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't in the first five years? That's a crap deal man. I guess I know what to look forward to when I obtain my teaching certification.

[Kelly]

So pretty much it's a no win situation? It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't in the first five years? That's a crap deal man. I guess I know what to look forward to when I obtain my teaching certification.


The thing is, you have to choose your battles, if you are going to try and fight every battle, you will not be happy as a teacher. My first 5 years, I followed the discipline plan and learned. I don't write students up anymore, unless of course its something like fight or cussing out another student, or me...lol, but classroom management stuff, I take care of myself...you learn how to do that, and the kids learn their boundaries. You get a reputation, and it goes from there...it takes time. You also have to remember that the media only focuses on about 2% of teenagers. The other 98% are pretty cool.

[Kelly]

RADICAL CHANGES?????

http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/01/25/article/changes_in_curriculum_in_nc_would_be_radical

Ok, maybe I've missed something somewhere....but I just heard on the news that North Carolina is getting reamed for changing its curriculum...as in.....


Who would have ever thought that North Carolina high school students wouldn’t be taught about George Washington, Abraham Lincoln or the Civil War anymore?
The state’s new Accountability and Curriculum Reform Effort has resulted in some radical proposals for courses that all North Carolina high school students will be required to take.
History has largely been thrown out. Freshmen in high school would not be taught world history. Instead, they would learn about global issues such as human rights, the environment and international efforts to solve world problems.
Eleventh-graders would only be taught the U.S. history that occurred after 1877. Our students would be robbed of a large portion of their cultural heritage and left unprepared to address the global issues that the state proposes to teach them in the ninth grade.
When are our students going to develop a frame of reference that can be used to put modern issues and events into perspective? Or are impressionable young minds simply going to be indoctrinated to develop a particular worldview?
Perhaps, either unknowingly or knowingly, that is what our state school system will accomplish if the new standards are adopted.9th: Global Issues
10th: Civics and Economics
11th: US History Since 1877


Early US History will be taught along with NC History in Junior High....


NOW, I'm not sure what the uproar is, and maybe some of you could school me in how your state set up your Secondary Education.

But, here in Texas MOST SCHOOLS now do the following.

7th: Texas History
8th: US History up to 1877
9th: World Geography and Global Issues (which is what I teach)
10th: World History
11th: US History after 1877
12th: Government and Economics

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH NC's changes???????

Texas has had the US History set up for DECADES?

I just don't get it....

OK, I found their actual scope and sequence, and IT IS A PRETTY WEIRD SCOPE AND SEQUENCE.

Grade K - Self and Family/Families Around the World
Grade 1 - Neighborhoods and Communities Around the World
Grade 2 - Regional Studies: Local, State, US, and World
Grade 3 - Citizenship: People Who Make a Difference
Grade 4 - North Carolina Geography and History
Grade 5 - United States History, Canada, Mexico, and Central America
Grade 6 - South America and Europe
Grade 7 - Africa, Asia, and Australia
Grade 8 - North Carolina History and Geography
Grade 9 - 12 = World History, Civics and Economics, United States History, History and Social Science Electives


I'm not sure why they need 2 years of North Carolina History...
It looks like they will possibly be changing to what Texas as and change their 8th grade curriculum to US History only.


I don't understand why they break up the regions of the world per year. You can take one year and teach the regions fairly easily. NOW, as a Geography teacher that would be a dream come true for me...lol, but I can see why their Science or suffering.

IT DOES NEED CHANGING, but I still don't see what the uproar is...

[Carcharodon]

Education in Texas is about to move back to the Bronze Age.


Texas : Saved to Doomed in just 6 hours. (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/26/texas-from-saved-to-doomed-in-just-6-hours/)





Check out her website too. Great reading. NOT.




:doom: :doom: :doom:...are you ****ing KIDDING me?

Great job, creationists. As if I needed another reason to dislike Texas, and everyone in it.

(JK, Kel. Mostly.)

[Kelly]

LMAO, that post is almost a year old...

And our Science classrooms are still safe.

[Carcharodon]

Holy crap. So it is. Thanks for that, I need to edit a post. :o

[Marx]

TEXAS CONSERVATIVES 'REWRITE' HISTORY
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-cuts-thomas-jefferson-out-of-its-textbooks/ (http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-cuts-thomas-jefferson-out-of-its-textbooks/)

[Marx]

UPDATE: LIST OF CHANGES TO TEXAS TEXTBOOKS
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/13/texas-textbook-massacre-u_n_498003.html

:facepalm:

[BlackLantern]

wow....is there no one on the state board of ed there that is opposed to this???

[Paradoxium]

UPDATE: LIST OF CHANGES TO TEXAS TEXTBOOKS
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/13/texas-textbook-massacre-u_n_498003.html

:facepalm:Not to justify, but most curriculum are cooked on some level. They still teach "FDR saved us and Hoover is Laissez Faire", and purposely ignore 1920-21. You should see what the Japanese did with their history books in regards to the massacres in China. The only real solution is teaching critical reading, cross referencing, and open access of information.

[Marx]

...these changes are sickening.

[Superman]

TEXAS CONSERVATIVES 'REWRITE' HISTORY
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-cuts-thomas-jefferson-out-of-its-textbooks/ (http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-cuts-thomas-jefferson-out-of-its-textbooks/)

:facepalm:What the hell is wrong with the Texas school system? First they stop kids from seeing the President speak and now they are cutting out Thomas Jefferson from the books.

Is it the water that makes them stupid? :whatever:

[Kelly]

What the hell is wrong with the Texas school system? First they stop kids from seeing the President speak and now they are cutting out Thomas Jefferson from the books.

Is it the water that makes them stupid? :whatever:

It is not the Texas School System...it IS one committee that has a majority of religious right as far as the voting is concerned for the textbooks and what they contain.

Also, the Texas School System did not stop kids from seeing the President speak. It was left up to individual districts, and most DID, just as my district DID allow students to see the President speak.

Noticing your glass is half full...

[BlackLantern]

so when does "Republican Space Rangers" make it in??

[Marx]

Isn't history what you teach Kel? Will this affect you?

[Paradoxium]

time for Kel to teach math

[Kelly]

Isn't history what you teach Kel? Will this affect you?

I teach World Geography, so no it does not impact my curriculum specifically, in fact our curriculum has been strengthened through this process to include topics that up until now had been mostly left out, such as genocide, etc.

I am the department head of the Social Studies Department, and head of the Secondary Social Studies Curriculum for my district...so in that way it does impact me. My teachers have sent a letter to TEA to let them know of our opinion on these changes, and that we do not agree with them.

I don't know of any history teacher in the State of Texas, and I know 100's of Texas History Teachers.....I doubt any of them agree with these changes.

[Kelly]

time for Kel to teach math

That would be the downfall of Math as we see it in the whole of the United States...

[BlackLantern]

2 + 2 does not equal Pie??

[Kelly]

Depends if its Cherry or Chocolate....

[Timstuff]

The left pushes for left leaning books, and the right pushes for right leaning books. It's called the political pendulum, and I think people are just mad that in this instance it's now swinging in the opposite direction.

[Paradoxium]

Well it's technically Pi, π or 22/7

Anyways this thing reeks of control freaks trying to mold people. Meanwhile people of other view points will justify the same control tactics since these people are doing. Nothing like a dish of Tu quoque.

[Mystirious]

And, for the third time today, I thank god I don't live in America as the school system there is clearly INSANE

The whole creationism thing was bad enough (Akin to teaching Santa Claus and the eater bunny as high school subjects) but now their playing some ludicrous game of "let's pretend"

I'd urge ANYONE of sense here reading this who has kids and lives in Texas to pull them OUT of school and home school them, as clearly, these people aren't fit to be trusted with the education of your children

[BlackLantern]

Well it's technically Pi, π or 22/7

Anyways this thing reeks of control freaks trying to mold people. Meanwhile people of other view points will justify the same control tactics since these people are doing. Nothing like a dish of Tu quoque.

that was a joke

[Paradoxium]

Now I feel lame. :csad:

[Kelly]

And, for the third time today, I thank god I don't live in America as the school system there is clearly INSANE

The whole creationism thing was bad enough (Akin to teaching Santa Claus and the eater bunny as high school subjects) but now their playing some ludicrous game of "let's pretend"

I'd urge ANYONE of sense here reading this who has kids and lives in Texas to pull them OUT of school and home school them, as clearly, these people aren't fit to be trusted with the education of your children

Exactly what specific group of "these people" are you talking about?

Also, have you actually read the TEKS for any Secondary subject in the Texas Curriculum?

I'll give you time to google that...

[Superman]

It is not the Texas School System...it IS one committee that has a majority of religious right as far as the voting is concerned for the textbooks and what they contain.

Also, the Texas School System did not stop kids from seeing the President speak. It was left up to individual districts, and most DID, just as my district DID allow students to see the President speak.

Noticing your glass is half full...The committee is the school system when it comes to what will be in the school books and what will be taught in Texas. And right now the Texas school system is run by a bunch of religious Right nutbags.

And the very fact that even a few districts was allowed to stop the kids from seeing the President is just sad, Wrong and disgusting. It should not even have been a question of watching or not watching. It's the President of our country for gods sakes. If these people "Love the Country" so much like they say they do they should have some respect for the office if not the man in the office.

[Kelly]

The left pushes for left leaning books, and the right pushes for right leaning books. It's called the political pendulum, and I think people are just mad that in this instance it's now swinging in the opposite direction.


This is actually true, the sad thing is...you have a VERY SMALL group in both instances that make the decision for a hell of a lot of states.

I know that Fox is getting slammed by the TEA for saying that this will actually impact most states in the US, but they are right.

Because Texas is the largest buyer of Textbooks, the 3 main Textbooks companies that I believe are about to be 2, write the textbook standards with Texas in mind...therefore the textbooks they have to choose from will be few and far between, and will probably follow these changes.


For quite awhile it was California that had this power, and therefore your textbooks had a slightly left leaning view....now its Texas.

[Mystirious]

Exactly what specific group of "these people" are you talking about?

Also, have you actually read the TEKS for any Secondary subject in the Texas Curriculum?

I'll give you time to google that...

The schools in general.

Sorry but I don't have much faith in the education system in Texas if their caving in to pressure to rewrite history

The committee is the school system when it comes to what will be in the school books and what will be taught in Texas. And right now the Texas school system is run by a bunch of religious Right nutbags.



It's the kids I feel sorry for. At risk of being brainwashed by these twisted idiots.

[Paradoxium]

For quite awhile it was California that had this power, and therefore your textbooks had a slightly left leaning view....now its Texas.Heheh every time I see California fail at something I haz a big fat grin :woot:

[Superman]

The schools in general.

Sorry but I don't have much faith in the education system in Texas if their caving in to pressure to rewrite history




It's the kids I feel sorry for. At risk of being brainwashed by these twisted idiots.

I just love how people in Texas had a fit over some imaginary "Indoctrination" Obama was supposed to be doing but they have no problem with Indoctrination when it comes to the christian religion.:whatever:

[Mystirious]

I just love how people in Texas had a fit over some imaginary "Indoctrination" Obama was supposed to be doing but they have no problem with Indoctrination when it comes to the christian religion.:whatever:

Of course not. So long as all the kids are brainwashed to be obedient little idiots, that's fine with them

[Dr. Evil]

In Middle School, we had two separate history classes: American History and Texas History. I had to take Texas history before American history.

Texas will probably re-elect Rick Perry, who has been mentioned as a possible Republican candidate in 2012.

I was once fascinated by American and Texas history. Once I discovered sports and became a fan, I stopped giving a damn about history.

[bgates87]

This reminds me of an episode of King of the Hill.

[Kelly]

The ignorance of generalization is sad to watch...

[Mystirious]

In Middle School, we had two separate history classes: American History and Texas History. I had to take Texas history before American history.



Did you have to learn the history of Middle Earth too?

Chances are it has more basis in fact :woot:

The ignorance of generalization is sad to watch...

What generalisation? This is fact. Schools in Texas are rewriting history. There's no justification for that.

I don't blame the teachers who are being made to teach this tripe though. The blame lies on the people forcing them to try and play "Let's pretend" with world history

[Kelly]

The schools in general.

Sorry but I don't have much faith in the education system in Texas if their caving in to pressure to rewrite history




It's the kids I feel sorry for. At risk of being brainwashed by these twisted idiots.

So, I can assume that you have not read any of the TEKS in the Texas Curriculum at the Secondary level...???

[Dr. Evil]

Did you have to learn the history of Middle Earth too?

Chances are it has more basis in fact :woot:

Nope.

:woot:

Besides, I had never heard of Middle Earth until 2001, which was when I was in college.

[Kelly]

In Middle School, we had two separate history classes: American History and Texas History. I had to take Texas history before American history.

Texas will probably re-elect Rick Perry, who has been mentioned as a possible Republican candidate in 2012.

I was once fascinated by American and Texas history. Once I discovered sports and became a fan, I stopped giving a damn about history.

Unfortunately you are probably correct...I'll be voting for Bill White myself.

[Mystirious]

So, I can assume that you have not read any of the TEKS in the Texas Curriculum at the Secondary level...???

You can safely assume that, as I went to school in England, my birth-country.

But I don't see what that has to do with the matter at hand, the school system rewriting history and flat out lying to their students.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Schools were always biased toward liberals or conservatives because of the political leanings of teachers but this reminds me of those conservatives who made their own version of the bible because the popular one was too liberal.

[Kelly]

Actually it is a book committee...the TEKS, are what we are to teach in the classroom. A teacher that bases their classroom curriculum on a textbook does not know their curriculum well enough to teach. A textbook is merely one resource of 100's that we use in the classroom. I wrote the curriculum for our schools based on our TEKS, not a textbook. The TEKS are based on the National Standards for these subjects, and Texas TEKS are based closer on the National Standards than any other State Standards. Those are what we teach, not "a" textbook.


From the 8th Grade US TEKS

(B) explain the roles played by significant individuals during the American Revolution, including Samuel Adams (http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/ssc/teks_and_taas/teks/bio8.htm#adams), Benjamin Franklin (http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/ssc/teks_and_taas/teks/bio8.htm#franklin), King George III (http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/ssc/teks_and_taas/teks/bio8.htm#king), Thomas Jefferson (http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/ssc/teks_and_taas/teks/bio8.htm#jefferson), the Marquis de Lafayette (http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/ssc/teks_and_taas/teks/bio8.htm#marquis), Thomas Paine (http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/ssc/teks_and_taas/teks/bio8.htm#paine), and George Washington (http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/ssc/teks_and_taas/teks/bio8.htm#washington);

Just because Thomas Jefferson is not in "a" textbook does not mean we are not required to teach about him in our classroom curriculum.

Our Social Studies curriculum is quite extensive, and far deeper than most states standards for their curriculum.

[Dr. Evil]

Aren't textbooks sort of outdated now? With all of the online capabilities, I would think that paper bound textbooks would be outdated. Apparently, that's still not the case.

[Kelly]

Did you have to learn the history of Middle Earth too?

Chances are it has more basis in fact :woot:



What generalisation? This is fact. Schools in Texas are rewriting history. There's no justification for that.

I don't blame the teachers who are being made to teach this tripe though. The blame lies on the people forcing them to try and play "Let's pretend" with world history


You have no idea what you are talking about, if you have not read the TEKS for Social Studies Curriculum, then you have no idea what teachers are "forced" to teach in the State of Texas. We are required to teach the TEKS, not "a" textbook.

[Kelly]

Aren't textbooks sort of outdated now? With all of the online capabilities, I would think that paper bound textbooks would be outdated. Apparently, that's still not the case.

Most World Geography courses do not use a textbook, we don't. The curriculum I wrote is based on our TEKS, World Geography is a current event class, there is no way a textbook can keep up with world events and issues.

Most of your Geography classes use magazines like UpFront from the New York Times as text for their classes. Our textbook are articles.

The curriculum in my district, and most districts are not based on a textbook it is based on our standards.

[Dr. Evil]

Most World Geography courses do not use a textbook, we don't. The curriculum I wrote is based on our TEKS, World Geography is a current event class, there is no way a textbook can keep up with world events and issues.

Most of your Geography classes use magazines like UpFront from the New York Times as text for their classes. Our textbook are articles.

The curriculum in my district, and most districts are not based on a textbook it is based on our standards.

Ah okay, because back when I was in school, I used Textbooks. Standard paperback textbooks.

[Paradoxium]

I read a lot from the computer, but I still prefer books. It feels easier on the eye imo.

[Kelly]

Ah okay, because back when I was in school, I used Textbooks. Standard paperback textbooks.

There have been trends over the past decade to move towards a "Concept Based Curriculum" much like that of colleges...we still have textbooks, and we still buy them for some reason...but that doesn't mean they are what the class is based on, or the curriculum. IF a teacher has based their entire class on "a" textbook, that is a teacher that needs to be released and find a new career.

Also, the TAKS test, the State of Texas' Assessment of Knowledge and Skills is not based on a textbook, it is based on the standards as well.

[Kelly]

I read a lot from the computer, but I still prefer books. It feels easier on the eye imo.


I have pretty much moved to the internet for my morning newspapers, and my Kindle for books....

[Lighthouse]

In Middle School, we had two separate history classes: American History and Texas History. I had to take Texas history before American history.

Texas will probably re-elect Rick Perry, who has been mentioned as a possible Republican candidate in 2012.

I was once fascinated by American and Texas history. Once I discovered sports and became a fan, I stopped giving a damn about history.

I've always wondered how Texas schools teach about the Alamo. Do they give you the full history, or just the glorified version?

[Prison Mike]

I read a lot from the computer, but I still prefer books. It feels easier on the eye imo.

Same here!

[Dr. Evil]

I've always wondered how Texas schools teach about the Alamo. Do they give you the full history, or just the glorified version?

With American History, it's the glorified version.

When I took Texas History, there was a whole chapter on the Texas Revolution and The Alamo.

Hell, we watched the movie about the Alamo....and not the John Wayne version either. It was the Brian Keith version with a very young Alec Baldwin as William Barrett Travis.

[Kelly]

I've always wondered how Texas schools teach about the Alamo. Do they give you the full history, or just the glorified version?


LOL, Texas doesn't have a history...Portion of Mexico's History and the rest American History...

I've actually lobbied to have it taken out of the curriculum, and replace it with a US Geography course. I haven't been successful. :csad::cwink: But I will prevail...