Contest Of Marvels (Season 3) - Thread 4

[Phaedrus45]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg


Bracket 7

Match 1:

Anole (HELLSTORMER) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Anole)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Anole.jpg

vs.

Fat Cobra (JEWISHHOBBIT) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Fat_Cobra)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/FatCobra.jpg

Match 2:

Mastermind (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Mastermind_(Jason_Wyngarde))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Mastermind1.jpg

vs.

Lockdown (MIDNIGHTICE) link (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/lockdown.htm)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Lockdown.jpg

[Phaedrus45]

Bracket 8

Match 1:

Justice-John Roger Tensen (PHAEDRUS45) link (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/John_Tensen_(Earth-148611))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Justice-John.jpg

vs.

Bride Of Nine Spiders (HARLEKIN) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Bride_of_Nine_Spiders_(Immortal_Weapons))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/BrideOfNineSpiders.jpg

Match 2:

Human Torch (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Human_Torch)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/humantorch1.jpg

vs.

Medusa (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Medusa)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Medusa-1.jpg

[Phaedrus45]

Location: Avengers Mansion (Before Decimation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_Mansion

Nobody will be in the mansion, besides the combatants. Remember, while you do have 24 hour prep time, that prep time does not allow you to place anything within the location before the battle begins. You can only take stuff into battle that you can hold on your character's person.

Debating May Begin!

[Harlekin]

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6605/brideofninespiders.jpg
THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS VS. JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN)

The Bride of Nine Spiders, her heart pumps the coldest blood imaginable... and horrors inconceivable to mortal men. Now, I think we can easily conclude that these two characters would have absolutely no knowledge of each other. They haven't met and are essentially from two different dimensions.

The location therefore, is also not going to be much of an asset to either one. At least, not in the technological resources department. I think the Bride has a definite advantage when it comes to applying stealth in this situation. If the fight keeps to the three 'personal floors', which I would reasonably expect, I think the Bride can use the size limitations to her advantage.

As to the fight itself, I don't think this'll be an easy fight for either one, but again, there's a variety of pros on the Bride's side. For one, she's fast, strong, cold as ice and has exceptional fighting skill. Truthfully, Justice has one definite pro over her: distance attacks. However, this is balanced by two things: Justice's inability to use force fields and blasts at the same time and his questionable mental stability. A note concerning those force shields as well: these can require considerably concentration, something he won't get the chance to when fighting the Bride of Nine Spiders.

So the way I see the fight going down is pretty basic. The two combatants meet somewhere along the way. The Bride is ruthless, sets in the attack. She manages to dodge's Justice blasts, but he plays keep away. Eventually, he decides to go on the offensive with his shields. However, I see this ending up a stalemate. He can't keep up the shields for long, and there's not really something he can do.

Of course, the Bride is going to unleash the spiders and besides the fact that I think this will freak Justice out, they have been known to defeat Dog Brother #1, a colleague Immortal Weapon and a veritable horde of HYDRA soldiers. Once they get to Justice, which they will eventually, it's over.

WINNER=THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

[Phaedrus45]

Justice (New Universe) vs. Bride Of Nine Spiders: Opening Debate

*Neither character knows about the other, as Justice comes from the New Universe alternate world. (Let it be known, this is New Universe, not New Universal.)

First, a description of powers:

Justice:

*John has the psionic ability to form energy in two distinct types. One hand is apparently "better" than the other at using one form-blasts from the right or "sword" hand, forcefields from the left "shield" hand.

*John's energy blasts are heat and light-based. He can cause blinding flashes, disintegrate objects etc.

*John can form forcefields of varying shapes and sizes. He has considerable control of them, including creating platforms to walk across, as a battering ram, reflecting attacks, and even sending a shield into the throat of an adversary to choke them.

Bride Of Nine Spiders(BONS):

*The Bride of Nine Spiders houses a swarm of spiders inside her own body and can unleash them at will to plague an opponent.


Justice will have one advantage over BONS: He will have an indication of her powers by just seeing her name. He will know she has some use of spiders...he just won't know that they are a part of her and how many she can reproduce in a battle. Still, he will have his guard up; meaning, he will go into battle using his forcefield to shield himself from trouble.

To me, this seems like a pretty one-sided battle. With the forcefield, the spiders will be unable to touch and effect Justice. Also, as he's able to produce energy blasts that are heat and light-based, he can fry the little buggers.

One advantage that BONS might have is a little knowledge of Avengers Mansion; but, that knowledge wouldn't be that extensive. There is no indication of her ability to use any of the stuff within; and, I'd go one further by saying as she's been living in the old, mystic realm of K'un-lun, she doesn't have much knowledge of anything technological. (I'm not sure if she's been living there the entire time or not; but, as this is the only time we've seen her, I think it's safer to say that than the other.)

Finally, as Swarm can be beaten with a knowledge of killing off bees (as we've seen that character defeated in that fashion before), Justice will do research about spiders. Remember, BONS was seen in a tournament-setting with enhanced-powered individuals, like Iron Fist. She did not face those with vastly superior powers. This was mainly a hand-to-hand type combat, and we haven't seen her facing someone of Justice's abilities.

Winner: Justice

[Phaedrus45]

Justice vs. BONS Rebuttal:


As to the fight itself, I don't think this'll be an easy fight for either one, but again, there's a variety of pros on the Bride's side. For one, she's fast, strong, cold as ice and has exceptional fighting skill. Truthfully, Justice has one definite pro over her: distance attacks. However, this is balanced by two things: Justice's inability to use force fields and blasts at the same time and his questionable mental stability. A note concerning those force shields as well: these can require considerably concentration, something he won't get the chance to when fighting the Bride of Nine Spiders.

Just to start off with, I want to dispute one statement, that the force shields require considerable concentration. As stated in his bio, "he has considerable control of them," with nothing implying that it's going to be difficult to use them for extended periods of time. Plus, while he may not be able to use his energy blasts at the same time as using the force fields, it doesn't mean he cannot use his force field in conjunction with other force field type abilities, like "creating platforms to walk across, as a battering ram, reflecting attacks, and even sending a shield into the throat of an adversary to choke them." If John is in a tight spot, he can create a full shield, and simply use it to smash her spiders or various other techniques.


So the way I see the fight going down is pretty basic. The two combatants meet somewhere along the way. The Bride is ruthless, sets in the attack. She manages to dodge's Justice blasts, but he plays keep away. Eventually, he decides to go on the offensive with his shields. However, I see this ending up a stalemate. He can't keep up the shields for long, and there's not really something he can do.

Again, the shields aren't just a defensive tool. They can also be used offensively. Plus, he has "considerable control" over them; the, keeping them up does not seem to be a problem for him.

There is no indication that he will wait for her to set up an attack. He doesn't know her; so, it would be foolish to just wait for her to do that. Second, Justice is quite ruthless, and will be on the attack just as much as she is.

Also to point out, Justice has advanced healing powers, as stated in his bio:

*John seems to recover from injury faster than normal. He appeared to restore a severed arm.

Of course, the Bride is going to unleash the spiders and besides the fact that I think this will freak Justice out, they have been known to defeat Dog Brother #1, a colleague Immortal Weapon and a veritable horde of HYDRA soldiers. Once they get to Justice, which they will eventually, it's over.

I doubt this will freak out Justice; he's going into battle knowing, just from BONS name, that she's somehow associated with spiders. In 24 hour prep time, he'll even do research about things that might repulse or kill spiders. (It's something he can carry on his person, too.)

I agree that a HYDRA soldier is easily defeated by BONS. And, while Dog Brother was defeated, I don't think he was anywhere on the level of powers that Justice has. Comparing Justice to HYDRA agents and Dog Brother is like comparing apples to oranges.

WINNER=Justice

[Phaedrus45]

Wow, Franklin! Medusa vs. Human Torch!!! Too bad you own both characters, as that's an impressive opening fight. Both have great knowledge of the other.

[Franklin Richards]

I agree. I suppose I should weigh in here.



Medusa is a great fighter. Most people underestimate her because of her hair. They think that Medusa's hair is like their own. Not remotely.


Imagine Doc Ock with a thousand more arms and each one was lighter, more agile, and just as strong. Plus they are way more malleable.

Medusa could instantly kill any humanoid with facial orifices. All she needs is the will. And being an Inhuman has taught her to kill when necessary.


However...


This is Johnny Storm she is facing. And despite Crystal's beaus since then, Johnny will always be Medusa's little sister's first love. And possibly her true love. Medusa would find it very hard to use lethal force with Johnny. And that's why she won't win this one.


I don't even have to pull out any of Johnny's tricks yet. All he needs to do is fly out of the Avenger's Mansion. Set it aflame and wait for Medusa to come out. Once she makes her exit it's a shooting gallery. By taking the high road Johnny also avoids any of the water mains that Medusa might try to use against him.


Johnny Storm is victorious.


Any thoughts?


:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Phaedrus45]

Yeah, I disagree. The Inhumans will know how to take away Johnny's powers (we've seen that done to him on numerous occassions); and things within the mansion will help her out, if need be. Remember, Johnny can't go too far away from Avenger's Mansion...probably just the Mansion's grounds. He wouldn't just burn down the mansion, either. He's a good guy, and won't be ruthless in his pursuit.

For some reason, I think Medusa would take him out. She'd use her cunning against him...something Johnny clearly doesn't have.

[wiegeabo]

For some reason, I think Medusa would take him out. She'd use her breasts against him...something Johnny clearly doesn't have.

Fixed.


(I couldn't resist)

[Franklin Richards]

Well he knows that this is "Thunderdome" and he prolly wouldn't feel to bad about burning down the "Mansion".

I agree with your analysis of Medusa's cunning. I just think that she's too overpowered in this instance.


And Johnny's not as dumb as you'd think. He's just eccentric.


:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Franklin Richards]

Double.


:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Phaedrus45]

Yeah, he knows about the environment...but, two things have to be taken into account: One, he wouldn't risk Medusa being burned alive...after all, he doesn't know where in the mansion she is. If she's in the underground level, she could be killed. Second, there is no guarantee that he can get out of the mansion before she gets ahold of him. Plus, I would bet my bottom dollar that the mansion has an excellent fire protection system built into it. Medusa would also know this, and might activate it, thus not allowing Johnny to use his abilities until he can dry out.

[Franklin Richards]

Johnny can control flame within a hair's breadth. He can do a "controlled burn" and snuff her out if he wants. Plus he'd prolly do his best to keep to the court yard.


I also have a few tricks that I'm hesitant to mention because I want to save them for his next round when there is actual competition.


But I agree about how bad Medusa is and believe me this is NOT an easy decision.



:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Franklin Richards]

This is like my 5th double post today. WTH?


It's not me, I swear.



:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Vanguard07]

This fight certainly doesnt play to Johnny's strengths. He's up against a good guy so regardless of will to win, he'll be holding back trying not to do permanent harm. With fire based powers thats not easy. He's also fighting in cramped quarters with little to no room to maneuver.

Medusa, while a good guy is also a pretty ruthless oponent. She's overpowered, certainly but she's got all the other factors on her side in this one.
Tough call.

[JewishHobbit]

Fat Cobra Vs Anole

While I love Anole, he is by far one of the lesser characters in this tournament. He's awsome at stealth and has been trained to fight in hand-to-hand by the best of the X-Men. He can also lose limbs and they come back stronger, such as with his huge arm.

However, he's really not a fighter. He's a student (or just barely out of being one) and is green behind the ears (yes... that was intentional). He can put up a fight, and in the stealth department I'm sure he can get the drop on Cobra, but he has nothing that can take out Cobra initially, so it really isn't much of a help.

Fat Cobra, however, is alife long professionally trained warrior. He's got the weight and muscle of a sumo but the man is lightning fast. He's quick enough to outmanuever the Iron Fist. In hand to hand combat, which is about all Anole will be able to do against him, having no previous knowledge of Cobra or the Avengers Mansion, Anole is serverely outclassed. So if it comes down to that, he won't last two seconds before he's flat on his back and bloody.

Now... giving Anole the benefit of the doubt and he tries to fight strategically by using his suroundings, being familiar with living in basic mansions like the X-Mansion, he'd basically slink around in the shadows, clinging to walls, and utilize the mansion. However, there really isn't much that can be used here to really take out Fat Cobra. He can't use the tech, he can't use any weapons or anything, he can really just do things like break items over Cobra's head. The problem with this is, Cobra is freakin' tough and can take that kind of thing, and once Anole gives up his location, Cobra's got him.

If it's close, he can just kick the crap out of him, if it's at a distance Fat Cobra can also throw lightning bolts or use them as lassos and such things getting Anole close. Now there's a chance that some lightning and well placed kicks might rip off some of Anole's anatomy and make him stronger, but he'll be taken out before he gets torn up enough to really stand with Fat Cobra.


I like Anole, but he's just out of his league here.

Winner - Fat Cobra

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN) VS. BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

To me, this seems like a pretty one-sided battle. With the forcefield, the spiders will be unable to touch and effect Justice. Also, as he's able to produce energy blasts that are heat and light-based, he can fry the little buggers.
This is assuming that the Bride would unleash the spiders immediately. Thing is, she's also a fighter and she's going to be faster than Justice. She's more likely to wear him out (more on that later) and then go in for the final blow, unleashing a torrent of mystical spiders upon him.

Finally, as Swarm can be beaten with a knowledge of killing off bees (as we've seen that character defeated in that fashion before), Justice will do research about spiders. Remember, BONS was seen in a tournament-setting with enhanced-powered individuals, like Iron Fist. She did not face those with vastly superior powers. This was mainly a hand-to-hand type combat, and we haven't seen her facing someone of Justice's abilities.
Except Justice's abilities really aren't that impressive and that the contestants in the Heavenly Tournament seemed to be more than just 'enhanced'. I'm not saying they're greatly above street level, but they are above your average low-level superhero.

Just to start off with, I want to dispute one statement, that the force shields require considerable concentration. As stated in his bio, "he has considerable control of them," with nothing implying that it's going to be difficult to use them for extended periods of time. Plus, while he may not be able to use his energy blasts at the same time as using the force fields, it doesn't mean he cannot use his force field in conjunction with other force field type abilities, like "creating platforms to walk across, as a battering ram, reflecting attacks, and even sending a shield into the throat of an adversary to choke them." If John is in a tight spot, he can create a full shield, and simply use it to smash her spiders or various other techniques.
I'm going off of Marvunapp (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/justicet.htm), a vastly superior site for information on characters like this and I tend to believe them over the more generic wikipediaesque sites. From there, I'll quote: "It requires great energy and concentration to use these shields, and it is thus difficult for him to maintain them for an extended amount of time, or to use them over a large area."

Again, the shields aren't just a defensive tool. They can also be used offensively. Plus, he has "considerable control" over them; the, keeping them up does not seem to be a problem for him.
See previous argument.

There is no indication that he will wait for her to set up an attack. He doesn't know her; so, it would be foolish to just wait for her to do that. Second, Justice is quite ruthless, and will be on the attack just as much as she is.
He's still going to need to find her and he's still going to have to be able to attack her as well. These Immortal Weapons aren't slouches.

Also to point out, Justice has advanced healing powers, as stated in his bio:
*John seems to recover from injury faster than normal. He appeared to restore a severed arm.
From Marvunapp again, and I'd like to point out that this is a much better sourced site: "Justice once demonstrated the ability to grow back a severed hand, but this, too, may have been a manifestation of Darquill's dream world."

The fact that the bio even states 'appeared' says enough. It's obviously not an ability that has been shown much and should therefore be discounted.

I doubt this will freak out Justice; he's going into battle knowing, just from BONS name, that she's somehow associated with spiders. In 24 hour prep time, he'll even do research about things that might repulse or kill spiders. (It's something he can carry on his person, too.)
I'd just like to note that these are still mystically fuelled spiders, not your run-of-the-mill household one. To me, this is like taking anti-spider equipment to a Spider-Man fight. Also, does Justice even have any resources where he might acquire A) this knowledge, B) this equipment?

I agree that a HYDRA soldier is easily defeated by BONS. And, while Dog Brother was defeated, I don't think he was anywhere on the level of powers that Justice has. Comparing Justice to HYDRA agents and Dog Brother is like comparing apples to oranges.
While it's true that they are in a different category, I don't think that has anything to do so much with their level of power, but with their specific abilities. Justice's just aren't really that impressive. He can be tired out and defeated and in my eyes, without too much effort.

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN) VS. BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

Haha...I just got out of bed, because I read that I was wrong about one of John's abilities; and, see you had just sent in a rebuttal. As you said, from the Handbook, John does have to have great concentration for his force fields over extended periods.


This is assuming that the Bride would unleash the spiders immediately. Thing is, she's also a fighter and she's going to be faster than Justice. She's more likely to wear him out (more on that later) and then go in for the final blow, unleashing a torrent of mystical spiders upon him.

It won't matter for Justice if she wants to wait to deliver the final blow, unleashing the torrent of mystical spiders. As Justice won't know hardly anything about his opponent...as neither will BONS...he will more than likely go for the quick defeat. As stated in the Handbook, the type of energy his right hand produces can vary from a harmless light to "disintegrating heat beams." With his left hand, he produced the force fields, where he could simply block the breathing of BONS. Both are very powerful methods he can use to defeat her, and neither will be known to BONS.

Except Justice's abilities really aren't that impressive and that the contestants in the Heavenly Tournament seemed to be more than just 'enhanced'. I'm not saying they're greatly above street level, but they are above your average low-level superhero.

This is where I will have to strongly disagree with you. Justice could be ruthless, and his energy projection is off the charts extreme. In the handbook, which is where the site you mentioned took their information, word for word, it shows Energy Projection being a 6 out of 7; which would explain being able to disintegrate his opponent.


I'm going off of Marvunapp (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/justicet.htm), a vastly superior site for information on characters like this and I tend to believe them over the more generic wikipediaesque sites. From there, I'll quote: "It requires great energy and concentration to use these shields, and it is thus difficult for him to maintain them for an extended amount of time, or to use them over a large area."

As stated, I had just read this, and agree with your assessment. Luckily, Justice's energy blasts make up for this; and, his use of force fields won't need a long duration to withstand this battle.

He's still going to need to find her and he's still going to have to be able to attack her as well. These Immortal Weapons aren't slouches.

I will agree they aren't slouches; but, there is also not much know about them, than the few appearances in Iron Fist.


From Marvunapp again, and I'd like to point out that this is a much better sourced site: "Justice once demonstrated the ability to grow back a severed hand, but this, too, may have been a manifestation of Darquill's dream world."

The problem with this quote is that it showed Justice doing the ability once; but, since he didn't do it again, it discredits it. My question is that Justice obviously still has his hand...and, I would guess in the comic it was cut off. It doesn't sound like it was explained as being a "manifestatin of Darquill's dream world" when it happened.

The fact that the bio even states 'appeared' says enough. It's obviously not an ability that has been shown much and should therefore be discounted.

The truth of the matter is that Justice's comic lasted for just 32 issues. I'm sure many things happened just once. To me, it's been shown in the comic to have happened. But, this isn't the strength on which I'm building my argument, and doesn't really matter. I do not see BONS doing anything to Justice that will result in the loss of limbs.


I'd just like to note that these are still mystically fuelled spiders, not your run-of-the-mill household one. To me, this is like taking anti-spider equipment to a Spider-Man fight. Also, does Justice even have any resources where he might acquire A) this knowledge, B) this equipment?

Well, Swarm wasn't your run of the mill bee, either. But, I'll point out the argument used above. In my character, something happened once and is to be discredited. Now, we have a character who is known very little about; and, the spiders being one of those things. There is no proof that things and ways to be used against spiders cannot be done in anything we've read. SO, it would be wrong to try and guess the extent of these spider's true abilities, especially if facing disintegrating heat rays.

I'll also point out that Justice has police training. He knows to be prepared when going into a battle, and not to rush into anything. When facing a potential deadly foe who has abilities that may kill you, he'd know to take that threat out before it can do the same to him.


While it's true that they are in a different category, I don't think that has anything to do so much with their level of power, but with their specific abilities. Justice's just aren't really that impressive. He can be tired out and defeated and in my eyes, without too much effort.

The fact of the matter is Justice powers are impressive, especially his vast Energy Powers. In retrospect, very little is known of BONS. She fought one of the warriors in the tournament, and she fought WITH the warriors against a horde of HYDRA agents. Justice can use his disintegrating energy rays, or use his force fields to block her breathing, thus knocking her out. Those same force fields could be used to batter her, if need be. They don't need to be used for extended periods of time.

WINNER = Justice

[Franklin Richards]

Mastermind VS Lockdown


Lockdown is a formidable jailer. But that's it. Here he is a normal human completely out of his element. He doesn't have his homebase. He doesn't have his entire arsenal at his fingertips.


Mastermind on the other hand is a master illusionist. With his power he can make Lockdown believe the "Contest" is over. With a wave of Masterminds hand Lockdown is made "Champion" and returned to his home in the Negative Zone. Lockdown returns to his life and the moment he goes to sleep for the first time...




is the moment he loses the battle. Deception wins the day for Mastermind.


Mastermind Wins.



:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Harlekin]

FINAL ARGUMENT: THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS VS. JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN)

I'm ending the argument, on my side at least, because I think our debate clearly shows that there is some definite speculation required, and I think part of that will have to come with the voter. There's not much known about Justice and even less so about the Bride. I'd rather not have to speculate more than I have already done.

Some final points though:
- I know you've already conceded that Justice is not likely to lose limbs, but I'd like to note that if he really only did it once, it should not be counted as an inherent ability. Considering that instance really is the only reference to a healing factor. As it stands, reading the small summary, it seems losing his hand was part of the hallucination as well.
- When I first read the strategy of knocking the Bride out by blocking her breathing, I immediately thought to myself 'who says she needs to breathe?'. That is also why I'm ending the debate on my end. There's just too much to speculate about. As it stands, I still think the Bride can and should win this.
- She took out HYDRA soldiers on her own as well, we saw this. It's not like she needed the other Weapons' help in taking down any of the army.

WINNER: THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

[Phaedrus45]

FINAL ARGUMENT: THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS VS. JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN)

I'm ending the argument, on my side at least, because I think our debate clearly shows that there is some definite speculation required, and I think part of that will have to come with the voter. There's not much known about Justice and even less so about the Bride. I'd rather not have to speculate more than I have already done.

Some final points though:
- I know you've already conceded that Justice is not likely to lose limbs, but I'd like to note that if he really only did it once, it should not be counted as an inherent ability. Considering that instance really is the only reference to a healing factor. As it stands, reading the small summary, it seems losing his hand was part of the hallucination as well.
- When I first read the strategy of knocking the Bride out by blocking her breathing, I immediately thought to myself 'who says she needs to breathe?'. That is also why I'm ending the debate on my end. There's just too much to speculate about. As it stands, I still think the Bride can and should win this.
- She took out HYDRA soldiers on her own as well, we saw this. It's not like she needed the other Weapons' help in taking down any of the army.

WINNER: THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

I'm good with ending this debate, too. I do own the entire Justice series; so, I might look up the part where he lost his hand, just to get an indication of what really went down. (If I do a rebuttal with this, I'll send you a PM, letting you know I have done another rebuttal.)

I agree, and was thinking last night that anything else said would probably be repeating ourselves. We've both made our points. Again, I'll PM you if I find something new.

Good debate, Harlekin! It's been a lot of fun to get back into this, and learn more about characters we sometimes don't know much about.

[Midnight Ice]

Mastermind VS. Lockdown

Lockdown may seem like the underdog here, and he is but that doesn't mean to count him out. He has fought super people before.

He has many X-Men contacts as well as other heroes so he could get info on Mastermind if he didn't know about him already. I also unclear on what type of info his car keeps, he may have a database of people there.

Lockdown's best weapon here is his neuron disrutper. Even if Mastermind puts him in an illusion, Lockdown is smart enough to realize that what he is seeing may not be real. This is why Lockdown would use his neuron disrupter no matter what he saw just to be sure. The disrupter would cause Mastermind to be paralized, thus letting Lockdown win the match. I will also point out that Lockdown has an ultra-frequency screamer that if used would cause Mastermind to drop any illusion he may be using.

Winner: Lockdown

[Harlekin]

Good debate, Harlekin! It's been a lot of fun to get back into this, and learn more about characters we sometimes don't know much about.
Definitely. It was good to have my first debate against you and to get back in the game. :up: I'm expecting some big debates between us down the line.

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!

Just a reminder to all who choose to vote in this tournament. You must read all the debates and rebuttals before voting. Also, you must vote in all four threads for all of the matches for your votes to count.

Good luck to all the participants!

[POWdER-man]

I will enter my votes for each bracket when I am done reading all the debating*

Fat Cobra
Medusa
Mastermind
This last one is really tough... BONS would have the stealth and fighting ability on her side, Justice would have the forceshield and heat blasts.....so the question is if Justice has the ability to maintain his forceshield to keep BONS away and attack from a distance, or will it fail him long enough to give BONS the opportunity to sneak in and attack...

...Justice but barely

[Phaedrus45]

My Votes:

Fat Cobra

Lockdown - (I was looking at both characters, and believe Lockdown's armor has the ability to negate Mastermind's powers.)

Justice

Medusa - (If Johnny was a ruthless SOB, then I could see him taking this match. He isn't...so, I do believe Medusa would take him.)

[JewishHobbit]

My votes:

Fat Cobra - My character
Medusa - I think she'd win, but it's whoever Franklin wants to advance.
Mastermind - I didn't see anything about Lockdown's armor negating Mastermind's powers in the bio, and since this wasn't tackled by Midnight Ice, I'm giving it to Mastermind.
Bride of Nine Spiders - This one was tough. I had to stop and remind myself to be fair in this match (due to my love of Immortal Weapons) and I was impartial as I read. I think it would really be close, a 6 out of 10 kind of match, but I think the Bride would win the first round. After that, who knows.

[Harlekin]

Fat Cobra - Overpowered in this instance, I think.
Mastermind - I didn't really read anything that indicated Lockdown could not be fooled by Mastermind's illusions and well, that clinches it.
Bride of Nine Spiders - Duh.
Medusa - What clinches it here is attitude, I think. Even knowing he has to fight, Johnny's going to be hesitant to hurt Medusa and therefore she gets to school him.

[Vanguard07]

Medusa
Mastermind
Bride of Nine Spiders
Fat Cobra

[Franklin Richards]

Mastermind
Cobra (badass)
Bride


And I still can't believe you people. :D I know both of these characters pretty well and there is no way Johnny get's defeated by Medusa.


Smell that? It's burning hair.

The Human Torch defeats Medusa.


:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Hellstormer]

Anole, he deserves at least one vote for awesomeness. Anole's just not the right guy for this tournament.

Justice, he just outpowers her and he's not exactly sane, which I consider an advantage.

Human Torch, in my opinion he's the better bet for later on. He's got the raw power.

Lockdown, I agree that he's got the gadgets to disrupt MM's powers.

[wiegeabo]

Fat Cobra

Lockdown - All he'd have to do is go into the match with his creamer going to disrupt Mastermind.

Justice

Human Torch

[Ahura Mazda]

Fat Cobra

Lockdown - as I think his armour will protect him against telepathy

This next one is a toss up for me as I did not know much about either character. Given I do not think she can withstand his blasts I will go with:

Justice

As much as I would have thought Medusa could take it; it is not my choice so therefore HT.

[Midnight Ice]

Fat Cobra
Lockdown-As I said in my debate, he was a couple gadgets that can cause Mastermind to stop any illusion he would try to get before the match even starts. without his illusions Mastermind is nothing.
Bride of Nine Spiders
Medusa

[Phaedrus45]

Final Results:

*Fat Cobra defeats Anole 9-1

*Mastermind ties with Lockdown 5-5

*Justice ties with Bride of 9 Spiders 5-5

*Medusa defeats Human Torch 6-4

(Even though Medusa defeats Human Torch, I know Franklin wants Human Torch to move on; but, remember, if your two characters tie, it's up to you to contact me about who you wish to advance. Otherwise, the winner will be the character advancing.)

(The two ties will be rematches for this next week. Remember, this is the one instance where you can remember things that happened previously in your tournament matches.)

[Midnight Ice]

My votes:


Mastermind - I didn't see anything about Lockdown's armor negating Mastermind's powers in the bio, and since this wasn't tackled by Midnight Ice, I'm giving it to Mastermind.


JH, were you referring to I didn't suggest his armor would negate Mastermind's powers, or were you saying I didn't debate at all? Just wondering. My debate wasn't all that big, it could have been skipped over.

[POWdER-man]

No he is just referring to you not mentioning that point in your debate.

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah, just that you didn't mension that point in your debate.

[Phaedrus45]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg


Bracket 7

Match 1:

Lyja Lazerfist (MIDNIGHTICE) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyja)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Lyja.jpg

vs.

Fantomex (WIEGEABO) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantomex)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/fantomex-1.jpg

Match 2:

Husk-AoA (MIDNIGHTICE) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husk_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/husk-1.jpg

vs.

Talisman (FRANKLINRICHARDS)link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talisman_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/talisman.jpg


Rematch:

Mastermind(FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastermind_(Jason_Wyngarde))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Mastermind1.jpg

vs.

Lockdown(MIDNIGHTICE) link (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/lockdown.htm)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Lockdown.jpg

[Phaedrus45]

Bracket 8

Match 1:

Baroness Blood (WITCHKING) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Baroness_Blood)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/baroness.jpg

vs.

Madman (PHAEDRUS45) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_(Marvel_Comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/madman-1.jpg


Match 2:

Sleepwalker (VANGUARD07) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Sleepwalker)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/sleep.jpg

vs.

Speed Demon (WITCHKING) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Speed_Demon)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/speedd.jpg


Rematch:

Justice-John Tensen(PHAEDRUS) link (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/John_Tensen_(Earth-148611))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Justice-John.jpg

vs.

Bride Of Nine Spiders(HARLEKIN) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Bride_of_Nine_Spiders_(Immortal_Weapons))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/BrideOfNineSpiders.jpg

[Phaedrus45]

Location: Genosha (Post Extermination) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genosha)

The island will be uninhabited this week.

[Phaedrus45]

Debating May Begin!!!

[Harlekin]

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/886/brideofninespidersround.jpg
THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS VS. JUSTICE (JOHN TENSEN) - ROUND 2!

New location, same opponent. Second round.

I think the Bride of Nine Spiders has an advantage in this rematch because of two factors:
A) Justice's fragile mental state.
B) The bigger, dirtier location.

See, the way I see things going down, the Bride is going to go full stealth after the last match. She disappears into the shadows of the rubble that is Hammer Bay (Genosha's capital city). Now, Justice knows about her and what she can do. Similarly though, she knows what he can do. What it comes down to in this rematch then is taking advantage of Justice's inability to use his powers for long periods of times.

Genosha is a big, grimy place with a lot, A LOT of spiders.

They're the ones that are going to keep Justice busy. After the last match he's going to want to kill every spider in sight. Then, when his guard is down and he's out in the open (Justice is not a stealth guy), the Bride strikes with a full-on attack and takes care of him.

Justice had a better chance the first round, but now, knowing what he's capable of and with the location to her advantage, the Bride gets to take him down.

WINNER=THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

[Phaedrus45]

Justice vs. Bride Of Nine Spiders - Opening Argument:

Here we go, again! First, just to remind everyone, here are the bios.


Bride Of Nine Spiders(BONS):

*The Bride of Nine Spiders houses a swarm of spiders inside her own body and can unleash them at will to plague an opponent.

Justice:

I'm going to give some better, more explicit bios on John Tensen.

*Justice is able to psionically create two forms of energy: From his right (or "sword") hand, he releases blasts of energy which are of high intensity and heat. He can vary the size of the beam from that of a flashlight to at least six feet in diameter. He can also use this hand to release dazzling burtst of light.

*From his left (or "shield") hand, he is able to create force fields of varying sizes and shapes. There fields are resistant to both physical and energy attacks. They can withstand the impact of a bullet, but can be made to also absorb the impact of a person falling from great heights without injury to the person. Only the scythe of Seraph has ever been seen to shatter one. He can project these shields around himself and other people. It requires great energy and concentration to use these shields, and it is thus difficult for him to maintani them for an extended amount of time, or to use them over a large area. He can create small shields, which he can send into someone's mouth, choking them, and he can also use shields as rising platforms to climb to great heights.

*Justice is an extremely skilled hand-to-hand combatant, he is well coordinated, and athletic.


Now, the important factor is who gets the advantage in a rematch. I'm positive we'll both say the same thing: OUR CHARACTER! I'll just say the Justice has powers that can shield him from her spiders; and, now he knows the extent of her powers and how she attacks. He'll know exactly what to expect from her spider attack.

Now, while it is true that Justice needs concentration to use his shields, he'll be better equipped this time, knowing how and when to use them. (Plus, while it's not said, I get the idea that the level of the shielding might be important to how long it can hold up.)

Here is the good part of this battle; it's much more wide open. To begin with, Justice will get the advantage in the battle by using his shield powers to rise above the terrain, get on top of one of the destroyed buildings, surveying the area. He'd do this by creating a platform to gain access to a nearby rooftop. From there, he can spot Bride of Nine Spiders (BONS). And, best of all, he'd know her spiders eminate from her body, now.

Remember, as described above in Justice's bio, "He can project these shields around himself and other people;" and instead of just using them to protect himself from her spider attack, he can go one better, by pulling a "Sue Richards," and surround her with the shield, taking away her ability to breath, and slowly choking her out.

This time, there is no surprise factor. This time, Justice will be totally prepared.

Winner = Justice

[Phaedrus45]

Justice vs. Bride of Nine Spiders Rebuttal:


I think the Bride of Nine Spiders has an advantage in this rematch because of two factors:
A) Justice's fragile mental state.
B) The bigger, dirtier location.

Bigger and dirtier doesn't necessarily help BONS. It gives Justice more ground to cover, and she will not be able to get the jump on him, as would have been tried before. Neither character will be familiar with the location; but, Justice can use his shield powers to get a strategic advantage, seeing where she is coming from. (Plus, it doesn't ever show BONS as using her spiders to get from one location to another; simply, that she uses them for attack purposes.)

Also, as for his "fragile mental state," that is made fragile if drugs are used to make it that way. More importantly, BONS has no clue to what Justice's mental state is, and without that knowledge, she wouldn't know to exploit it. (Just to point out, this is a VERY important factor. Just how does she assertain from one tournament battle his mental state? That was a physical battle, not mental.) Plus, nothing in BONS' bio states she'd use drugs to achieve him having a big, mental breakdown.

See, the way I see things going down, the Bride is going to go full stealth after the last match. She disappears into the shadows of the rubble that is Hammer Bay (Genosha's capital city). Now, Justice knows about her and what she can do. Similarly though, she knows what he can do. What it comes down to in this rematch then is taking advantage of Justice's inability to use his powers for long periods of times.

There is nothing that shows BONS is a stealthy fighter; just that she has a horde of spiders that can attack an opponent. There is nothing in her bio that shows her being a master strategist, unlike Justice, who has a background in that field. (To quote, "Compelled to use his preternatural abilities to fight criminals, he acted as a vigilante against street hoods, drug dealers and gangsters while trying to recall more of where he came from and how he ended up on Earth.")

About his "inability to use powers for long periods of time, he will simply have to be aware where she is. His energy powers, which are pretty substantial and enough to eliminate her on it's own, are not limited; that's just his shielding powers. And, if she gets surrounded by a shield, it won't take long to take her out.

Genosha is a big, grimy place with a lot, A LOT of spiders.

BIG IMPORTANT FACTOR, BONS shows no ability to control other spiders, as you pointed out last time, hers are mystical. This holds no impact on this match. Nowhere does it say she controls all spiders.

They're the ones that are going to keep Justice busy. After the last match he's going to want to kill every spider in sight. Then, when his guard is down and he's out in the open (Justice is not a stealth guy), the Bride strikes with a full-on attack and takes care of him.

Again, there are many things being stated which are in no way fact. BONS does not control spiders. Quoting your own argument last battle, "I'd just like to note that these are still mystically fuelled spiders, not your run-of-the-mill household one." Second, BONS shows no signs of being a stealthy fighter, being able to hide in shadows, and other such abilities. In fact, in her match, she went "head-on."

Sadly, we do not get to expand on characters, of which there is very little to go on. For my character, enough had been written to note his strengths and weaknesses; for BONS, we just have what is in her bio, basically. From that, we are not allowed the luxury to expand.

Winner = Justice

[Phaedrus45]

Baroness Blood vs. Madman - Opening Argument:

This is a very interesting first round match-up. Bios first!

Baroness Blood:

*Baroness Blood possesses traditional vampiric powers, including enhanced strength, hypnotism, the ability to replenish her strength by drinking blood and the ability to transform others into vampires. Because she has drunk from the Holy Grail, she can exist in sunlight indefinitely, and can share this power with other vampires who drink from her, making them immune to the sun and free of their need for blood for three days. She can also generate and control lightning.

Madman:

*Like the Hulk, Madman has vast superhuman strength. Unlike the Hulk, Madman is unable to become stronger as he becomes angrier, but he is capable of creating significant boosts in his size, density and power, making him greatly exceed the Hulk's calm state for brief periods of time. Allegedly being at least twice as strong as the base level of the 'merged'/'professor' incarnation in this mode, and once knocked out the latter with a single punch to the head through the advantage of surprise.


This is a difficult match to debate, because there is no background about how Baroness Blood's powers would work on Madman. The best we can do is compare some aspects of The Hulk with Madman, and take an educated guess.

What we do know is Madman does not have the "stronger as he becomes angrier" aspect of the Hulk persona; but, his skin is very dense, and if it can withstand bullets and grenades, then the Baroness' teeth aren't going to puncture him. (Good news for me, Baroness does not know who Madman is, and could very well try and sneak up on her opponent, realizing before it's too late that this strategy won't work.)

The only factor in this match that could cause Madman trouble is Baroness Blood's ability to mesmerize her opponent. Again, all I can do is compare him to Hulk, and we know Hulk cannot be mind-controlled by vampires. Since Madman is akin to the Hulk in many ways, I would suspect this to be true.

I would also point out that Madman's human side is very intelligent, and will be able to dig up some dirt on Baroness Blood, enough to know what things to look out for.

Madman just needs to get one punch on the Baroness, and it's over. He's knocked out the Intelligent Hulk with one punch; and, it stands to reason the same can be said here.

Winner = Madman

[Franklin Richards]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg


Bracket 7



Match 2:

Husk-AoA (MIDNIGHTICE) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husk_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/husk-1.jpg

vs.

Talisman (FRANKLINRICHARDS)link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talisman_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/talisman.jpg


Opening Argument.



This is a clear case of being outclassed.

Talisman is quite possibly the most powerful magic user in this dimension. Only Stephen Strange at his peak can be said to be more powerful. And that is arguable. Not only does Talisman have exceptional magical skills taught to her by her father, she is the living embodiment of the Talisman. She can shape any magic to her will. Most importantly in this battle, she can communicate and control spirits.

Here...


In Genosha.


Preptime


Elizabeth will contact the spirits during this portion of the battle. Gathering as much intel as she can about her enemy. As for the rest of the time, she is merely communicating with the many angry spirits of Genosha. Finding out where their bodies are buried. Where their spirits are confined. What they want.

Battle

The dead shall rise.

Talisman will summon an army of Genoshan spirits and zombies. Simple but effective. Talisman will use her scrying and clairavoyance to find her enemy and direct her army. If she can't her army of Undead should be more than enough.


Talisman overpowers Husk.


:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS VS. JUSTICE
Here is the good part of this battle; it's much more wide open. To begin with, Justice will get the advantage in the battle by using his shield powers to rise above the terrain, get on top of one of the destroyed buildings, surveying the area. He'd do this by creating a platform to gain access to a nearby rooftop. From there, he can spot Bride of Nine Spiders (BONS). And, best of all, he'd know her spiders eminate from her body, now.
It's a good tactic, I won't deny it, but I doubt he would be able to spot the Bride. As I've noted, I prefer not to speculate, and so I will try and do that to a minimum, but it's a rather essential part of the mystical martial arts ninja badass archetype that they are either A) undetectable or at least B) very very stealthy.

Remember, as described above in Justice's bio, "He can project these shields around himself and other people;" and instead of just using them to protect himself from her spider attack, he can go one better, by pulling a "Sue Richards," and surround her with the shield, taking away her ability to breath, and slowly choking her out.
Assuming of course, that he finds her.

Also, as for his "fragile mental state," that is made fragile if drugs are used to make it that way. More importantly, BONS has no clue to what Justice's mental state is, and without that knowledge, she wouldn't know to exploit it. (Just to point out, this is a VERY important factor. Just how does she assertain from one tournament battle his mental state? That was a physical battle, not mental.) Plus, nothing in BONS' bio states she'd use drugs to achieve him having a big, mental breakdown.
I'm not saying she would be able to exploit it consciously, just that with or without drugs, Justice just isn't the most stable guy around. I don't see him having the patience to wait out an attack from the Bride and him going a little crazy, especially if he sees a spider.

There is nothing that shows BONS is a stealthy fighter; just that she has a horde of spiders that can attack an opponent. There is nothing in her bio that shows her being a master strategist, unlike Justice, who has a background in that field. (To quote, "Compelled to use his preternatural abilities to fight criminals, he acted as a vigilante against street hoods, drug dealers and gangsters while trying to recall more of where he came from and how he ended up on Earth.")
I concede immediately there is no on-panel precedent for the stealthiness, but as I've noted it's a rather essential part of the archetype. Honestly, some speculation is required. We can't get around it.

Besides that though, there's a fallacy in that argument. "There's nothing that shows her being a master strategist, unlike Justice" implies that Justice is in fact a master strategist. There is nothing that indicates this, especially not in your quote. That just notes he is a vigilante. That doesn't make him a tactician... at all.

About his "inability to use powers for long periods of time, he will simply have to be aware where she is. His energy powers, which are pretty substantial and enough to eliminate her on it's own, are not limited; that's just his shielding powers. And, if she gets surrounded by a shield, it won't take long to take her out.
As noted before, he'd have to find her first and get to her. I personally doubt Justice would be capable of that, but I'm leaving this up to the voters.

BIG IMPORTANT FACTOR, BONS shows no ability to control other spiders, as you pointed out last time, hers are mystical. This holds no impact on this match. Nowhere does it say she controls all spiders.
And nowhere did I say she controls spiders. I said there are spiders in Genosha. If Justice sees them, he's going to kill them. He's going to tire himself out trying to track down the Bride. Then, when the time comes, she moves in and strikes him down.

Again, there are many things being stated which are in no way fact. BONS does not control spiders. Quoting your own argument last battle, "I'd just like to note that these are still mystically fuelled spiders, not your run-of-the-mill household one." Second, BONS shows no signs of being a stealthy fighter, being able to hide in shadows, and other such abilities. In fact, in her match, she went "head-on."
All I'm stating in that paragraph is that Justice is not a stealth guy and implying that the Bride is. I've noted my reasoning for how the spiders keep him busy.

As to your other point, that was a completely different situation. It was a direct battle, in an arena, where they were set opposite one another. That's not a situation where you employ stealth. That's a situation in which you fight.

But the nature of this tournament is different. The playing ground is much much larger and our fighters get time to prepare themselves on that battlefield. It demands a different approach.

Sadly, we do not get to expand on characters, of which there is very little to go on. For my character, enough had been written to note his strengths and weaknesses; for BONS, we just have what is in her bio, basically. From that, we are not allowed the luxury to expand.
All you'll find I'm expanding on is her ability to employ stealth, which, as I've pointed out, is a defining feature of the type of character she is. I don't like debating on the little information I have, but I make due with what I got and extrapolating from that, I believe the idea that she would win is a reasonable one.

WINNER=THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS

[Midnight Ice]

Lockdown VS. Mastermind Round 2

I have a few matches here, so I will start with the my rematch from last week.

I still am standing by the fact that if Lockdown just starts the match with his screamer on, Mastermind will not be able to use his illusions, giving Lockdown an easy target.

Also since this is a rematch and the characters can take their past fight into account (if I am wrong I will take this out, but I believe I remember this as a rule). Since he will know more about Mastermind he will be EXPECTING an illusion if Lockdown doesn't use his armor or gadgets to disrupt Mastermind's illusions. Mastermind fights best when he can "sneak attack" his enemies with an illusion. Since this is the 2nd match between them there is no surprising Lockdown.

Mastermind is a good charcater to have here, but its unfortunate that hos first match is against a character that can break Mastermind's concentration on any illusion AND that he is facing a character twice. Especially since this is a rematch, Lockdown wins.

Winner: Lockdown

[Midnight Ice]

Lyja Lazerfist Vs. Fantomex

This is an interesting match. (On a side note, thats what I like about this Contest. It has you think about fights you probably would never imagine would happen.)

Lyja could easily shape shift into a small animal or even attack from the top of a building to get Fantomex off guard. After an initial attack Lyja would just use her energy blasts and fighting skills to beat Fantomex. Once she got in close an energy blast should be enough to put Fantomex down. I also believe her body armor would deflect and protect her from any of Fantomex's attacks.

Winner: Lyja Lazerfist

[Midnight Ice]

Husk (AoA) Vs. Talisman

It definitly helps this match that the AoA version of Husk is stronger than the 616 version and has far better control of her powers, even being able to turn into liquid or gas forms.

I believe in order for Husk to win, she would turn her body into a very tough metal. In this form she could walk right up to Talisman, shrugging off any direct physical attacks and most energy attacks, and take Talisman out of the fight.

Even if that didn't work, since this version of Husk can transform into gas, she could easily transform into any gas that has the potential to knock Talisman out. She would turn into the gas, let Talisman breathe her, and then bam! Talisman is knocked out.

Winner: Husk (AoA)

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL of the Rebuttal: THE BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS VS. JUSTICE

I'm not thinking there is much more for either of to say here. Most points I'll make is just repeating myself; and, it looks like it is pretty much up to the voters to try and decide again. Anyway, I'll respond to a couple points, and probably leave it at that.

Besides that though, there's a fallacy in that argument. "There's nothing that shows her being a master strategist, unlike Justice" implies that Justice is in fact a master strategist. There is nothing that indicates this, especially not in your quote. That just notes he is a vigilante. That doesn't make him a tactician... at all.

Much like The Punisher, it sounds like Justice had to infiltrate the bad element at times. From what little I read, it sounds like his criminal fighting background makes him aware of what he needs to do, not rushing into a situation.


And nowhere did I say she controls spiders. I said there are spiders in Genosha. If Justice sees them, he's going to kill them. He's going to tire himself out trying to track down the Bride. Then, when the time comes, she moves in and strikes him down.

What we've seen from BONS is a horde of spiders coming out of her own body; I don't think Justice will have to worry about an itty, bitty spider in the corner of some dark corner. Spiders don't just wander around in the open. (Most times, you'll find them in a spider-web, something you won't find with BONS' spiders.) I've walked around run-down or destroyed building in my past, and spiders are never a concern for me, unless I'm sticking my hand in a dark area, like the hole in a cinder block.


pAll I'm stating in that paragraph is that Justice is not a stealth guy and implying that the Bride is. I've noted my reasoning for how the spiders keep him busy.

It's the last I'll talk about the spiders, but they won't be a problem. Spiders generally have a web around them, or they are hiding in dark, small places. These spiders won't be coming for Justice. He's seen what her horde of spiders is like, and a common spider is not a cause for concern. (Plus, I'm sure BONS' spiders look the same, not like the common spider he might come across.)

All you'll find I'm expanding on is her ability to employ stealth, which, as I've pointed out, is a defining feature of the type of character she is. I don't like debating on the little information I have, but I make due with what I got and extrapolating from that, I believe the idea that she would win is a reasonable one.


I'll just point out that characters that were stealthy were kind of easy to notice. (My failure to defeat Prince Of Orphans is a case for this point. Even though he had about as many appearances as BONS, his stealth was shown and pointed out.)


I'll leave this to the voters at this point. If I happen to look into it any further, I'll PM you; so, you know I have added something to my debate.

Again, good debate, Harlekin!

[Vanguard07]

Sleepwalker vs SpeedDemon: Opening Debate:

Alright. The biggest factors here in Sleepwalkers favor are enhanced physical powers (strength, speed, resistance to injury etc), Levitation
and his warp vision.

Speed Demon is a commonly known character who, due to his membership of the T-bolts, just about anyone could look up and find out he's pretty much exactly what you'd figure from his name.

He's a typical speedster. He runs at superhuman speeds, his reaction time and durability is enhanced and he generally doesnt carry ranged weaponry. Nor can he fly.

The best tactic for Sleep walker would be to take to the air, given that it would take a few seconds at least for Speed Demon to find him he should easilly be able to do this.
With no tall buildings left standing in for Speed Demon to run up and with Sleepwalkers warpvision giving him the ability to level out debris to prevent improvised ramps and things, SW should thus be able to stay out of Speed Demon's reach.

Sleep Walker's warp vision, allows him to manipulate the shape and material of things, he can even use this affect to manipulate air, causing whirlwinds and vortexes and the like. This would allow him to cancel out any attempts by SD to use wind attacks against him.

Warp vision also allows him to control the terrain.
By throwing vortexes against him and making the ground as jagged and uneven as possible to slow Speed Demon down, Sleepwalker should eventually manage to catch his opponent with one of his warpvision attacks. And while Speed Demon has enhanced durability it would not be sufficient to keep him in the fight if he gets caught. If Sleep Walker catches him it's over.

Bottom Line:
Sleepwalker will have the high ground, he will have the range superiority, the extreme advantage in firepower and he will have control over the terrain. These are all VERY important advantages in any conflict.
With an open enough area that he could keep out of Speed Demon's reach he should have more than enough advantages and opportunity to win this fight.

Winner= Sleepwalker.

[wiegeabo]

Fantomex vs Lyja Lazerfist

What a great match this should be. Lyja is a Skrull with who can fire energy blasts from her hands.

But Fantomex has a lot going for him. He can scout the island using EVA's sensors, even using her to attack from a distance.

He can also create a variety of illusions. Illusions good enough to fool master telepaths like Xavier. This gives him a number of possibilities. Everything from confusing Lyja into thinking she's under attack from multiple enemies, to general confusion, to convincing her she's not on the island and needs to fly back (thereby causing her to fly off the island and leave the battleground).

If it comes to a fight which, with his illusion casting I doubt, he's an expert fighter and marksman. All his abilities are enhanced, making it that much harder for Lyja to hurt him. And if she does, he has a healing factor to compensate. He could also offload his pain into EVA, thereby ignoring any injuries to press the fight.

Lyja is simply going to be outclassed in this battle.


Fantomex wins

[wiegeabo]

Lyja Lazerfist Vs. Fantomex

This is an interesting match. (On a side note, thats what I like about this Contest. It has you think about fights you probably would never imagine would happen.)

Lyja could easily shape shift into a small animal or even attack from the top of a building to get Fantomex off guard. After an initial attack Lyja would just use her energy blasts and fighting skills to beat Fantomex. Once she got in close an energy blast should be enough to put Fantomex down. I also believe her body armor would deflect and protect her from any of Fantomex's attacks.




With EVA's advanced scanners scouting the island from above, Fantomex should be able to find Lyja. Even if not, it can keep on eye on Fantomex, warning him when anything gets too close.

If it does come down to a fight, Fantomex's illusions will put Lyja at a severe disadvantage. If she does hurt him, he has a healing factor, and can offload his pain to EVA, allowing him to continue fighting.

As for her body armor, if Fantomex's mutant killing ammunition can't punch through it, he could just telepathically convince her that he set her armor ablaze, and she must remove it before burning to death. Then she's easy prey.


Fantomex wins

[Harlekin]

Again, good debate, Harlekin!
Thanks, Phaed. You too.

I'm leaving this to the voters as well.

[WitchKing]

Baroness Blood vs. Madman

Baroness Blood Abilities

Baroness Blood possesses traditional vampiric powers, including enhanced strength, hypnotism, the ability to replenish her strength by drinking blood and the ability to transform others into vampires. Because she has drunk from the Holy Grail, she can exist in sunlight indefinitely, and can share this power with other vampires who drink from her, making them immune to the sun and free of their need for blood for three days. She can also generate and control lightning.

Madman Abilities

Like the Hulk, Madman has vast superhuman strength. Unlike the Hulk, Madman is unable to become stronger as he becomes angrier, but he is capable of creating significant boosts in his size, density and power, making him greatly exceed the Hulk's calm state for brief periods of time. Allegedly being at least twice as strong as the base level of the 'merged'/'professor' incarnation in this mode, and once knocked out the latter with a single punch to the head through the advantage of surprise. He has also claimed to be able to assume many different appearances, including the scientist spying on the "New World Order".

The Battle

With the Baroness possessing the abilities of a vampire she can hypnotize the madman and calm him down as if he were a small enfant. Then using her strength she can break him in half and then drink his blood to replenish her.

Final Thoughts

Vampires are almost impossible to kill they are super humans with special abilities. I don’t believe there will even be a fight with her super powers against his brute force.

Winner – Baroness Blood

[WitchKing]

Speed Demon vs. Sleepwalker

Speed Demon’s Abilities
Speed Demon possesses superhuman motion, running abilities, and reflexes. These abilities are the result of body-wide mutagenic changes induced by the ingestion of chemical compounds of a technically advanced formula. His altered body has greater efficiency in his central nervous system, including the brain, stronger and more efficient musculature structure, and stronger bones. As a result of these mutagenic changes, Speed Demon can run at a maximum speed of about 160 miles per hour. He can run at his maximum speed for about three hours before fatigue significantly impairs his performance. Speed Demon's superhumanly fast thought processes and reflexes (about six times faster than the average human being's) enable him to perceive his surroundings while moving at high speeds, and to pick up objects and execute complex acrobatic maneuvers at these high speeds as well.
Sleepwalker’s Abilities

Sleepwalker possesses super-strength and flotation-like flight. Sleepwalker's only offensive power is his warp gaze. With this vision-based power, Sleepwalker can alter the shape of physical objects and twist them to his purposes. Sleepwalker initially demonstrated this power by using it to distort a sidewalk to capture a criminal. He also used this ability once on air molecules to create a wind tunnel for faster aerial travel.

The Battle

Sleepwalker trying to beat Speed Demon is going to be like a Hippo out running a cheetah. Speed Demon will run circles around Sleepwalker before he can even lift a finger.

Final Thoughts

With Speed Demon’s super human speed and thought he will be able to stay steps ahead of Sleepwalker.

Winner – Speed Demon

[Vanguard07]

Sleepwalker vs Speed Demon: Rebuttal:

Speed demon, possessing no ranged or flight abilities, would have no means of reaching Sleepwalker as sleepwalker can levitate well out of Speed Demon's range and attack him from afar with his warp vision.

Also as stated in my opening statement, with his warp vision he can turn the wind against Speed Demon and turn the arena to his favor by making the ground as uneven and jagged as possible. Slowing him down greatly and potentially injuring him. He could also warp the terrain into traps and more direct attacks against Speed Demon leaving him no option except to go on the run.

By these means Sleepwalker possesses all that would be necessary to defeat Speed Demon.

[Phaedrus45]

Baroness Blood vs. Madman


Baroness Blood Abilities

Baroness Blood possesses traditional vampiric powers, including enhanced strength, hypnotism, the ability to replenish her strength by drinking blood and the ability to transform others into vampires. Because she has drunk from the Holy Grail, she can exist in sunlight indefinitely, and can share this power with other vampires who drink from her, making them immune to the sun and free of their need for blood for three days. She can also generate and control lightning.

Madman Abilities

Like the Hulk, Madman has vast superhuman strength. Unlike the Hulk, Madman is unable to become stronger as he becomes angrier, but he is capable of creating significant boosts in his size, density and power, making him greatly exceed the Hulk's calm state for brief periods of time. Allegedly being at least twice as strong as the base level of the 'merged'/'professor' incarnation in this mode, and once knocked out the latter with a single punch to the head through the advantage of surprise. He has also claimed to be able to assume many different appearances, including the scientist spying on the "New World Order".

The Battle

With the Baroness possessing the abilities of a vampire she can hypnotize the madman and calm him down as if he were a small enfant. Then using her strength she can break him in half and then drink his blood to replenish her.

Final Thoughts

Vampires are almost impossible to kill they are super humans with special abilities. I don’t believe there will even be a fight with her super powers against his brute force.

Winner – Baroness Blood

Madman has many characteristics very similiar to Hulk's, including a dense skin, unable to be pierced by convential means...like a Vampire's teeth.

Baroness Blood has only one means to defeating Madman; and, that is if she can mesmerize Madman. Two things work against her; one, Madman has a dual personality, like Hulk; and, we know Hulk cannot be controlled by vampires. This dual personality is shown in the following statement:

This results in Sterns turning into a distorted monstrosity possessed of vast superhuman strength, and develops multiple personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_personality_disorder). From this point, a much stronger, arguably deranged, personality gives him ‘orders’ to carry out.

Also, it sounds as if Sterns has a little bit of control, since the deranged personality gives him orders to carry out. Thus, Sterns can know that a vampire would have certain powers.

Winner = Madman

[Phaedrus45]

Debating Is Over!

VOTING MAY BEGIN!!!

[Phaedrus45]

My Votes:

*Lyja Lazerfist - (It all came down to her skrull shape-shifting powers.)

*Talisman - (She will be a hard character to defeat, especially when your powers are limited. But, if she makes it through, she will have a tougher time next round, I think.)

*Lockdown

*Madman

*Sleepwalker - (I just didn't see anything in the debate for Speed Demon to convince me to vote for him.)

*Justice

[random_havoc]

My votes:

Justice - Bride of 9 Spiders

Sleepwalker - Speed Demon

Madman - Baroness Blood

Mastermind - Lockdown

Husk - Talisman

Lazerfist - Fantomex

[POWdER-man]

Sleepwalker (a good debate to convince he would win)
Talisman
Lockdown (a rematch was pointless for Mastermind)
Madman (too powerful of a character to be taken out so easily)
Fantomex (tough call but I think he can outlast Lazerfist)
...
I still don't like this match but I give it to...
Justice

[Midnight Ice]

Lyja Lazerfist
Husk
Lockdown
Madman
Sleepwalker
Justice

[wiegeabo]

Fantomex

Talisman

Lockdown - This rematch seriously favors Lockdown. He'll know to expect illusions and counter them.

Madman - tough draw for Baroness Blood

Sleepwalker - If Speed Demon had Flash-like, or even Quicksilver, speed, then maybe.

Bride of Nine Spiders - The last rematch was a really tough one for me. Usually one character gets a huge advantage by knowing the other. This time, not really. This time, I'm going with the patient and skilled ninja against the impatient and unstable vigilante.

[WitchKing]

Here are my votes

Lyja – Fantomex

Husk – Talisman

Mastermind – Lockdown

Baroness – Madman

Sleepwalker – Speed Demon

Justice – Bride of 9 Spiders

[JewishHobbit]

Fantomex
Talisman
Lockdown
Madman
Sleepwalker
Justice - I want to vote BONS, but I just think Phaed pulled it off here.

[Ahura Mazda]

Fantomex
Talisman - even though she is not the most powerful magic user on the planet
Lockdown
Madman - If the mesmering angle was discussed more I may have changed my vote as he is not immune like the Hulk is
Sleepwalker
Justice - She cannot control other spiders apparently and in such a scenario with foreknowledge I see Bons taking out

[Harlekin]

Fantomex - Debate sold me.
Talisman - Debate couldn't convince me Husk would win.
Lockdown - Rematch seriously favours him.
Madman - Just too powerful.
Sleepwalker - Debate sold me.
The Bride of Nine Spiders - Duh.

[Hellstormer]

Madman

Talisman

Lockdown

Justice

Fantomex

Sleepwalker

[Vanguard07]

Sleepwalker
Bride of Nine Spiders
Fantomex
Talisman
Madman
Lockdown

[Phaedrus45]

Voting Is Over!!!

Results:

Fantomex defeats Lyja Lazerfist 7-4

Talisman defeats Husk-AoA 10-1

Lockdown defeats Mastermind 11-0

Madman defeats Baroness Blood 10-1

Sleepwalker defeats Speed Demon 10-1

Justice-John Tensen defeats Bride Of Nine Spiders 8-3

[Midnight Ice]

Alright! My first win. And with Lockdown of all people. I didn't see where anyone voted for Masternind, I counted 11 for Lockdown but no problem it wouldn't change anything. Good debates everyone.

[Ahura Mazda]

the lockdown vote is mistaken as there were only 11 votes overall.

[Phaedrus45]

I must have felt bad for Mastermind and given him a vote out of pity.

[CoMarvels]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

Bracket 7

Match 1:

Mr. Sinister (Wiegeabo) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Mister_Sinister)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Sinistercom.jpg

vs.

Siena Blaze (Midnight Ice) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siena_Blaze)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/sienablazecom.jpg

Match 2:

La Lunatica (JewishHobbit)link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Lunatica)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Lunaticacom.jpg

vs.

Zzzax (Phaedrus45) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Zzzax)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/zzzaxcom.jpg

[CoMarvels]

Bracket 8

Match 1:

Sersi (Ahura Mazda)link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Sersi)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/sersicom.jpg

vs.

Man-Beast (Ahura Mazda)link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Man-Beast)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/manbeastcom.jpg

Match 2:

Groot (Phaedrus45)link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groot)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/grootcom.jpg

vs.

Sandman (Wiegeabo)link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Sandman)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/sandmancom.jpg

[CoMarvels]

Location: Baxter Building (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Baxter_Building)

This is the home of the Fantastic Four and will be unpopulated. You may take the battle outside for a 1 block radius to the building.

[CoMarvels]

Debating May Now Begin

[Phaedrus45]

Zzzax vs. La Lunitica-Opening Argument:

Ok, JH! Let's get the ball rolling!

La Lunitica:

*ability to manipulate emotions.

*she was able to feed off traumatic, and often repressed memories and emotions to increase her physical abilities to incredible levels, making her extremely strong and superhumanly fast

*a superhuman resistance to injury.

*She mellowed out as she switched from villain to Wolverine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine)-like hero, though she remained prone to violence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence) and dangerous behavior, especially when Skullfire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skullfire) was threatened or injured

Zzzax:

*As a being of pure electricity, Zzzax can absorb and discharge vastly powerful currents of electricity, manipulate nearby electrical fields, and fly.

*The creature's size and strength level also increases in relation to the amount of electricity absorbed.

*This control of electrical current also extends to the human nervous system, as Zzzax has been shown to be capable of controlling even the Hulk.

*Zzzax has been shown as being capable of generating intense heat, to the point whereby water - a previous weakness - evaporates before touching it. As another recent addition, it was shown capable of inhabiting and controlling the S.H.I.E.L.D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.H.I.E.L.D) Helicarrier.


La Lunitica is a pretty empressive character from the 2099 alternate universe. As such, neither character will know about the other. La Lunitica might have a slight advantage; because, looking at Zzzax kind of tells you that he might be an energy being. What won't help La Lunitica is the fact that Zzzax is an energy being, not a human with emotions that can be tapped into. While La Lunitica feeds off the emotions of others, Zzzax can take over someone's body, making everything ineffective...especially someone who doesn't know about him.

Also, Zzzax can travel within the electrical systems of the Fantastic Four's home, finding La Lunitica wherever she is. Before, people have said they'd have the element of surprise factor in a battle...in this case, Zzzax has it to the extreme. No matter where La Lunitica goes, Zzzax can follow. (Plus, Zzzax has flight, if the battle happens to go outside.)

Zzzax is one of Hulk's foes, and as such, is pretty durable and strong. La Lunitica is also durable; but, I'm not thinking to Zzzax's durability. Plus, La Lunitica's durability won't help her when he gains control of her body, just as he did to Hulk's, as described in the bios above.

Winner = Zzzax

[Phaedrus45]

Groot vs. Sandman-Opening Argument:

Groot:

*Groot can absorb wood to feed, to rebuild himself (which also requires water) and to enhance his strength. He can also control trees, using them to attack others. Groot also appears to be resistant to fire. He is able to Sprout, massively increasing his mass but also severely inhibiting his movement.

Sandman:

*He has the ability to alter his body, which can be hardened, compacted, dispersed, or shaped according to his will, something akin to a type of Earth manipulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_comic_book_superpowers#Earth_manipulation) limited to sand and small rock particles. (More often than not, this means that hitting him does not actually hurt him, but simply scatters the sand that he is made of.) Even if his body is blown apart, he is capable of reforming it.

*Most of the time, he is mainly seen transforming his arms and hands into a sand mace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(club)) or a sledgehammer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer) to battle Spider-Man and his other enemies. He can increase his size and mass to an unknown extent by incorporating sand grains in his vicinity into his body, and can add it to his strength, or use it to reform himself. He has the ability to control his body and parts thereof while his head is not solid and his mind exists only in astral form. Sandman has mental and physical control over every particle of sand in his body. He can also transform into a living sandstorm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandstorm) which allows him to fly great distances and is occasionally used to surround and suffocate his enemies.


Really? What can I say about this match, than that both characters are screwed by the location, neither will know about the other, and I cannot see how either can defeat the other.

Seriously! This is the most screwed up match in this opening round, because I don't see Sandman taking out Groot...and, Groot simply keeps hitting sand, and spreading it all around. Normally, the sand can be used against most of the characters in this contest, filling their mouths and such; but, that can't happen with Groot.

As for the location, Sandman doesn't have any sand to work with, and Groot doesn't have any trees or such. Best he has is water from the building, and I'm not sure what good that does him in this match.

Let me think....Groot isn't effected by fire; but, I guess it's possible Sandman, not knowing Groot, will try to burn him. The resulting fire might trip the sprinkler system, thus causing Sandman to be effected by the water, thus turning him into mud.

Bleck! For me, let the voters decide. Who knows, maybe the one that tires out and falls asleep loses.

Winner = Who Knows
Loser = Me and Wiegeabo for drawing such a draw in such a lousy location!!!

[wiegeabo]

Sandman vs Groot

The irony of this matchup is delicious. One is a plant, the other is dirt. And one might think the plant would win out over the dirt, but that would be misleading.


Sandman has two key advantages in this fight. First, he can hide pretty much anywhere in the building and easy flow from place to place.

Second, he can use his very body as a weapon. He can form blades and blunt objects like anvils from his hands, and chop Groot to pieces. Or just convert his body and sandblast the hell out of Groot.

Or there's the always fun flow down Groot's mouth and explode out from the inside.

And if you wanted to get really fancy, since Marko can absorb sand into his body to grow, he could drill himself under the building. Once there, he brings the dirt and rock into himself, and bring the building down around Groot, crushing him. (Marko would be fine since he'd just sift himself through the rubble.


You know how an avalanche can wipe out a whole forest. Well, in this case, it's dirt and not snow that's going to take the tree down.


Sandman wins

[JewishHobbit]

So I have my plan for Luna Vs Zzzax but I'm warn out and need sleep (it's 3AM). I'll post it tomorrow when i'm awake. Of course, I'll hold off on reading Phaed's until then. I think I have a shot at this but I'm expecting a heck of a debate and want my opening argument to be coherant.

[Ahura Mazda]

Lets see Sersi shows up and man Wolf starts to howl. He has none of his minions and no manhood either. Her beauty is immense overblowing all his defences. She takes this battle with ease and looks forward to her further adventures as the mistress of beauty and transmutation.

Winner - Sersi

[JewishHobbit]

La Lunatica Vs Zzzax

Okay, so at first I thought I was dead. Now I'm thinking that maybe anybody could beat Zzzax in this location. Powerwise, Zzzax trumps Luna, but powers aren't going to win this match.

Okay, Luna has the power to touch someone and bring out their most horrible experiences and tramatize them in the process. This grants her extra strength, stamina, speed, etc. Her skin is also a lot more dense than most people. She's a viscious fighter but not feral. She can think through a battle, and though she's no strategic genious, she's smart enough to win this fight.

Zzzax is an electrical being that can fire electrical bolts from his hands, grow up to 40 feet, control magnetic forces, travel electrical lines, etc. His touch is deadly, though I'm not sure how that would translate to those not baseline human. And he also seems to be of a fairly lower level intelligence. Kinda beast-like (that's based on the one or two issues I've read with him in it).

Okay, so power-wise, Luna doesn't stand a chance... however, 24 hour preptime will win this for her. In prep time you're given your opponant's picture and name. Luna won't know anything about Zzzax, the Baxter Building, etc. but all she needs is the picture. Anyone with half a brain can see that Zzzax is electricity. Electricity is shorted out by water. This was my first thought, though I'm not familiar with Zzzax, so I looked him up and was varified.

From Marvel.com

In fact, in their first confrontation with the team, Hawkeye shot a cable arrow through Zzzax and into a puddle of water, easily dissipating the entity.

Ultimately, Cable was able to defeat Zzzax with an open water main, and Zzzax dissipated.

So being that me, an average intelligent non-warrior, could think of this within 10 minutes of considering Zzzax's defeat, I'm sure a battle hardened vet like Luna can think of it if given 24 hours.

Okay, so the battle would go like this... it starts. Luna knows that touching high wattage of electricity would be dangerous so there's no reason for her to even attempt to use her powers. Instead she's going to go the water route. Thankfully, they're in a huge building that has a lot of fires and explosions. All she has to do is find a kitchen or somewhere with sprinklers available. So then all she has to do is get up on a non-metal chair or desk, counter, etc. (because anyone knows not to stand on metal or something that can conduct electricity) and just wait. Perhaps hide behind something. As Zzzax approaches she just needs to set off the sprinklers and Zzzax will be caught in the water and discipates as he did against both Cable and Hawkeye.

The only real problem I see with this is the amount of time it would take to set off a sprinkler system. If I think of this then chances are she will as well (as she's average level intelligence). So she could do something as simple as finding a bottle of alcolol or something flamable with a rag in it. Then when Zzzax is seen, she can light it and throw it up. The flames on the ceiling will set off the sprinklers and Luna can stay out of sight the whole time.

It's almost too simple, but it's effective. If someone of Hawkeye's level, who has no abilities, average intelligence, and a brash fighting style, can think to take out Zzzax... there's no reason to view Luna as too low of a character to pull it off.

Winner - La Lunatica

[JewishHobbit]

REBUTTLE

Zzzax vs. La Lunitica-Opening Argument:

Also, Zzzax can travel within the electrical systems of the Fantastic Four's home, finding La Lunitica wherever she is. Before, people have said they'd have the element of surprise factor in a battle...in this case, Zzzax has it to the extreme. No matter where La Lunitica goes, Zzzax can follow. (Plus, Zzzax has flight, if the battle happens to go outside.)

I overlooked this aspect during my match and it's a good idea. Chances are, Zzzax may do this, but Luna won't be moving much and the Baxter Building's a big place. Chances are, wherever Luna begins will have a sprinkler system and she just needs to set up. And if by chance Zzzax does find her, he's not subtle. He'll form and she'll know he's there and can react accordingly. However, I don't think it'll take her long at all to find a Sprinkler system and as soon as he shows himself she can act toward setting them off. Not to mention if he fires electrical bolts, electricity in the open starts fires, fires set off sprinkler systems. Sprinkler systems discipate Zzzax. In fact electricity itself is hot. Who's to say Zzzax won't set off the sprinklers himself? Plus, with Luna's durability, she may even be able to take a hit without being taken out, and if that happens her clothes will catch fire, providing for her what she needs to take Zzzax out.

Zzzax is one of Hulk's foes, and as such, is pretty durable and strong. La Lunitica is also durable; but, I'm not thinking to Zzzax's durability. Plus, La Lunitica's durability won't help her when he gains control of her body, just as he did to Hulk's, as described in the bios above.


Here's the thing. Luna's going to be working quickly because no one wants to be electricuted, and she'll have her plan ready way in advance. Though Zzzax has been able to take over a person's body, my understanding is that it's not often and almost never a first strike attack. Luna has time before this would happen, and she sure doesn't need much of it. Zzzax is hot, Luna can make fire, etc. All they need to do is get into a fight in a place with sprinklers and within seconds they're raining. Zzzax isn't smart enough to expect them and won't be able to emit enough heat to douse them before they douse him. Chances are, Luna will be hurting if Zzzax gets a shot off, but she's smart enough to survive this and take Zzzax out.

Winner - La Lunatica

[wiegeabo]

Mister Sinister vs Siena Blaze


Wow, this is not a good matchup for Siena. First off, with Sinister's vast resources and knowledge of Earth's mutants, I have no doubt that he could find out everything about Siena's powers. Blaze may no something of Sinister, but she can't do much with that information.

On the other hand, Sinister can do so much with prep-time. Besides being a scientific genius, he's also a cunning strategist. He can plan for how he'll take Siena out.

Sinister can create a device that will cancel out Blaze's powers, or nullify them completely. In a physical matchup, Blaze can deal a lot of damage, but Sinister has total control over his body. He can rebuild himself from virtually any damage. And it's not very easy to damage him in the first place.

On top of his durability and near immortality, Sinister has his own energy blasts to throw at Siena. Not to mention he can attack her telepathically and telekinetically.

Something else Sinister has on his side, is the location. If there's anyone who can figure out how to use Reed's systems and technology, it's Sinister. If Sinister's telepathic attacks aren't enough to stop Blaze, he can keep her busy while turning the building's security against her. He might not even have to get his hands dirty in the fight as her turns the entire building against Siena while keeping his distance.

There are just too many ways Sinister can fight and win this battle. Siena's just not going to be able to survive them all.


Mr. Sinister wins

[Phaedrus45]

La Lunatica Vs Zzzax

Okay, so at first I thought I was dead. Now I'm thinking that maybe anybody could beat Zzzax in this location. Powerwise, Zzzax trumps Luna, but powers aren't going to win this match.

Okay, Luna has the power to touch someone and bring out their most horrible experiences and tramatize them in the process. This grants her extra strength, stamina, speed, etc. Her skin is also a lot more dense than most people. She's a viscious fighter but not feral. She can think through a battle, and though she's no strategic genious, she's smart enough to win this fight.

Zzzax is an electrical being that can fire electrical bolts from his hands, grow up to 40 feet, control magnetic forces, travel electrical lines, etc. His touch is deadly, though I'm not sure how that would translate to those not baseline human. And he also seems to be of a fairly lower level intelligence. Kinda beast-like (that's based on the one or two issues I've read with him in it).

Okay, so power-wise, Luna doesn't stand a chance... however, 24 hour preptime will win this for her. In prep time you're given your opponant's picture and name. Luna won't know anything about Zzzax, the Baxter Building, etc. but all she needs is the picture. Anyone with half a brain can see that Zzzax is electricity. Electricity is shorted out by water. This was my first thought, though I'm not familiar with Zzzax, so I looked him up and was varified.

From Marvel.com





So being that me, an average intelligent non-warrior, could think of this within 10 minutes of considering Zzzax's defeat, I'm sure a battle hardened vet like Luna can think of it if given 24 hours.

Okay, so the battle would go like this... it starts. Luna knows that touching high wattage of electricity would be dangerous so there's no reason for her to even attempt to use her powers. Instead she's going to go the water route. Thankfully, they're in a huge building that has a lot of fires and explosions. All she has to do is find a kitchen or somewhere with sprinklers available. So then all she has to do is get up on a non-metal chair or desk, counter, etc. (because anyone knows not to stand on metal or something that can conduct electricity) and just wait. Perhaps hide behind something. As Zzzax approaches she just needs to set off the sprinklers and Zzzax will be caught in the water and discipates as he did against both Cable and Hawkeye.

The only real problem I see with this is the amount of time it would take to set off a sprinkler system. If I think of this then chances are she will as well (as she's average level intelligence). So she could do something as simple as finding a bottle of alcolol or something flamable with a rag in it. Then when Zzzax is seen, she can light it and throw it up. The flames on the ceiling will set off the sprinklers and Luna can stay out of sight the whole time.

It's almost too simple, but it's effective. If someone of Hawkeye's level, who has no abilities, average intelligence, and a brash fighting style, can think to take out Zzzax... there's no reason to view Luna as too low of a character to pull it off.

Winner - La Lunatica

The big problem in this whole argument is the reason I mentioned a very important in Zzzax's bio:

"*Zzzax has been shown as being capable of generating intense heat, to the point whereby water - a previous weakness - evaporates before touching it. As another recent addition, it was shown capable of inhabiting and controlling the S.H.I.E.L.D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.H.I.E.L.D) Helicarrier."

Key word is "previous weakness," and the mention about Hawkeye is from an earlier appearance. The water theory just doesn't hold....water.

[JewishHobbit]

The big problem in this whole argument is the reason I mentioned a very important in Zzzax's bio:

"*Zzzax has been shown as being capable of generating intense heat, to the point whereby water - a previous weakness - evaporates before touching it. As another recent addition, it was shown capable of inhabiting and controlling the S.H.I.E.L.D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.H.I.E.L.D) Helicarrier."

Key word is "previous weakness," and the mention about Hawkeye is from an earlier appearance. The water theory just doesn't hold....water.

Aparently he has done this in the past, but it's not a constant. If surprised he can still be put out. Here is a quote from another bio describing the events from his fight with Cable, his most recent appearence (aside from mentionin being in New Avengers 1-4, which I don't think we ever even saw him).

Zzzax spots Cable and tries to blast him. Cable gets Zzzax to chase him to a junkyard. Zzzax blasts him, but Cable dodges Zzzax as he tries to punch. Cable lands in a puddle of water. He reaches down and grabs a water main. Cable puts him out as if he were a fire.

So even though he's become so hot as to evaporate water before, he apparently has to will it. Cable surprised him with water and it took him out easily. Luna can do the EXACT same thing Cable did and win this match. She can set the sprinklers, bust a pipe, run a Janitor's hose... what have you.

Fact is, there is just way too much water in the Baxter Building for Zzzax to escape it. It's all within Luna's reach almost anywhere she is. Zzzax is going down!

Winner - La Lunatica

[Phaedrus45]

Aparently he has done this in the past, but it's not a constant. If surprised he can still be put out. Here is a quote from another bio describing the events from his fight with Cable, his most recent appearence (aside from mentionin being in New Avengers 1-4, which I don't think we ever even saw him).



So even though he's become so hot as to evaporate water before, he apparently has to will it. Cable surprised him with water and it took him out easily. Luna can do the EXACT same thing Cable did and win this match. She can set the sprinklers, bust a pipe, run a Janitor's hose... what have you.

Fact is, there is just way too much water in the Baxter Building for Zzzax to escape it. It's all within Luna's reach almost anywhere she is. Zzzax is going down!

Winner - La Lunatica

There are various problems with this argument. First, La Lunatica does not have a scematic for the Baxter Building. Second, it's not a simple task to just "bust a pipe." Is La Lunitica just going to find the nearest bathroom or kitchen, bust a sink, and expect to win? Third...please tell me how often you see a Janitor's hose in a highrise, like the Baxter Building??!!??

Also, let's examine the notion that La Lunitica thinks to even use water around Zzzax. Do me a favor, BE TRUTHFUL, and tell me what you think of when mixing water and electricity? Even the smallest kid learns at a young age that if you have electricity and throw water on it, you'll just fry yourself. You make it seem like it's instant knowledge that La Lunitica will go, "Electricy! I should throw water at him!!!" (Now, if you DO think this is a good idea, I dare you to tell your children to do that!)

[Phaedrus45]

Also, regarding the Cable appearance, some very important parts of that story was left out. Here is a good quote that describes some very important aspects of that story:

"Zzzax made one final appearance, in Cable (http://everything2.com/title/Cable) issue #59 when a S.H.I.E.L.D. soldier wishing to draw Cable out into the open used a slight psionic trace of Zzzax to regenerate him with a large magnet (http://everything2.com/title/magnet). Big mistake. So, after Zzzax goes nuts and starts destroying people and things alike, Cable does finally appear, and using the old "water beats electricity" trick, subdues Zzzax."

So, you get two facts left out before: 1) this was a "slight psionic trace of Zzzax" and "Zzzax went nuts." Zzzax basically was a completely crazed version of himself. And, a little water didn't defeat this version of Zzzax; this was a "Water Main." THis is not a small pipe you'd find in the bathroom of the Baxter Building. (Even a "janitor's hose" is a big difference from a "water main.") This doesn't even take into account that Zzzax was defeated NOT in the Baxter Building, where he can easily go into the electrical units to find a new attack if needed.

Another big problem with the argument is in La Lunitica's strength to pull off the feat of getting to break a pipe. La Lunitica is made more powerful with the use of other people's fears. She is simply not able to enhance her powers with Zzzax around.

[Phaedrus45]

Sandman vs Groot

The irony of this matchup is delicious. One is a plant, the other is dirt. And one might think the plant would win out over the dirt, but that would be misleading.


Sandman has two key advantages in this fight. First, he can hide pretty much anywhere in the building and easy flow from place to place.

Second, he can use his very body as a weapon. He can form blades and blunt objects like anvils from his hands, and chop Groot to pieces. Or just convert his body and sandblast the hell out of Groot.

Or there's the always fun flow down Groot's mouth and explode out from the inside.

And if you wanted to get really fancy, since Marko can absorb sand into his body to grow, he could drill himself under the building. Once there, he brings the dirt and rock into himself, and bring the building down around Groot, crushing him. (Marko would be fine since he'd just sift himself through the rubble.


You know how an avalanche can wipe out a whole forest. Well, in this case, it's dirt and not snow that's going to take the tree down.


Sandman wins

My problem with this match is Groot was one character I wasn't thrilled about being in the contest; and, I got stuck with him. So, a big part of me isn't so interested in fighting for him to stay. I'll just point out some problems I see with what's said above.

*I have never seen Sandman use his sand powers to make such a sharp object, that will form a type of axe, chopping him to pieces, as described above. As it says in his bio, it's more of a sledgehammer or mace.

*By saying Sandman will enter Groot's body and explode from the inside out fails to acknowledge the fact that Groot is A TREE! He doesn't have a human type body...His body, as I've seen in the comics, is solid wood. Sure, he has a mouth; but, I'm thinking that's about it. That defense really doesn't hold up for Groot.

*I would like to see an instance where Sandman has drilled into solid concrete...DEEP solid concrete! Plus, we're then figuring the fight goes into the very basement of the Baxter Building. It's all just too convienent for Sandman.

*I will acknowledge that Sandman has the stealth factor totally on his side. Plus, like I said, it doesn't bother me in the least to lose Groot; so, if someone really can't decide who would win and it's a flip of the coin, go ahead and let Sandman have it.

[Phaedrus45]

Zzzax vs. La Lunitica Rebuttal (Or, why the water argument doesn't hold water):

As we've said before, the best way to show why an argument doesn't hold up is to go to the source...the comics. Here is why the Sprinkler argument doesn't hold up:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Zzzax1.jpg

In Hulk #183, Hulk and Zzzax fight in the pouring rain. (Really, you just have to look at the cover to the issue to see that the sprinkler theory won't hold up.)

Now, why the Hawkeye arrow argument doesn't hold up:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/Zzzax2.jpg

As it says, it slowed down Zzzax, but didn't stop him. After the arrow, Hulk and Zzzax continued to fight, and Hawkeye's arrow ended up having very little effect on Zzzax.


Now, as for the other Hawkeye incident, here is an excellent source on how he was defeated:

"Wonder Man sprayed down Zzzax. Hawkeye then shot his cable arrow
carrying a conducting wire through Zzzax and into the puddle of water
upon which Zzzax was standing. Zzzax was grounded and its field was
disrupted."

This was a two person job. Wonder Man was holding a hose from a fire heidrant (sp?), and it wouldn't stop Zzzax...then, Hawkeye had to ground him with the arrow. La Lunitica is one person; and, she cannot hold a hose AND find a way in which to shoot an arrow into Zzzax, thus grounding him.

As for the Cable argument, I've given reasons why he was dispelled in this fashion. This wasn't the full Zzzax, but was a remnant of his original body from when Thunderbolt Ross took over his body. As such, I'll give an even better quote about why this "Water Main" worked:

"Cable had managed to take out the weakened Zzzax with the spraying water, as it began to discorporate."

As this says, this was a "weakened Zzzax," unlike what La Lunitica will be facing.

................................

Ok, I think I've proven well enough that the water theory doesn't hold water! Also, there is another point that La Lunitica won't realize; it won't be so much even trying to find water, because a few things work to Zzzax's advantage.

1) Zzzax can take away all power from the Baxter Building with his own powers. Even though it's daylight outside, we know the Baxter Building isn't all filled with windows throughout. If the lights go out, there will be many parts that will leave La Lunitica completely in the dark...or with little light. She'll see Zzzax, alright; but, this brings about the second factor.

2) Zzzax is facing one person, and as such is the case, he can take over her body. He's not facing a creature, like Hulk, who he's unable to control, due to the nature of their powers. Nothing stops Zzzax from controlling La Lunitica.

3) Lastly, I have shown the instances where water does not effect Zzzax. He was constantly rained on in that issue of Hulk. And, in the case where the water main worked, he wasn't the fully powered Zzzax.

Winner = Zzzax

[JewishHobbit]

Rebuttal

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/whiteflag.jpg

:mad: I Hate You Phaedrus45!!! :mad:

[Phaedrus45]

Rebuttal

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/whiteflag.jpg

:mad: I Hate You Phaedrus45!!! :mad:

haha! That picture is too funny!

Seriously, I thought you had me, JH. I was sweating bullets for a second. It's why I always break down and try and look at the particular issues; they tend to reveal a lot more than what's said in these bios.

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah, unfortunately I don't have any issues of Zzzax. I have every issue of X-Men 2099 but only found a scene of Luna being taken out by some kind of electrical lightening with little resistance. I sighed and through in the flag. I gave it my best though.

[wiegeabo]

My problem with this match is Groot was one character I wasn't thrilled about being in the contest; and, I got stuck with him. So, a big part of me isn't so interested in fighting for him to stay. I'll just point out some problems I see with what's said above.

*I have never seen Sandman use his sand powers to make such a sharp object, that will form a type of axe, chopping him to pieces, as described above. As it says in his bio, it's more of a sledgehammer or mace.

He's known for making maces.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/Tboltssandman.jpg

If he can make spikes that sharp, then I'd think he's smart enough to make axes or blades when fighting a tree. Even his mace should be enough to do some real damage.


*By saying Sandman will enter Groot's body and explode from the inside out fails to acknowledge the fact that Groot is A TREE! He doesn't have a human type body...His body, as I've seen in the comics, is solid wood. Sure, he has a mouth; but, I'm thinking that's about it. That defense really doesn't hold up for Groot.

If Groot's hollow inside, Sandman can do this. I don't know if he is, but the option's there just in case.



*I would like to see an instance where Sandman has drilled into solid concrete...DEEP solid concrete! Plus, we're then figuring the fight goes into the very basement of the Baxter Building. It's all just too convienent for Sandman.

Even if he hasn't, he's strong enough to bring a room down on Groot. If Groot survives, he could try bringing a whole floor down on him. Eventually the whole building if need be.


*I will acknowledge that Sandman has the stealth factor totally on his side. Plus, like I said, it doesn't bother me in the least to lose Groot; so, if someone really can't decide who would win and it's a flip of the coin, go ahead and let Sandman have it.

Sandman's got the power to win this. Plus, there's not much Groot can do to hurt him. Marko can just reform himself and slide around any attacks.


Sandman wins

[Phaedrus45]

He's known for making maces.



If he can make spikes that sharp, then I'd think he's smart enough to make axes or blades when fighting a tree. Even his mace should be enough to do some real damage.

I've never seen him make axes or blades. If you show it, I will concede; but, I'm just going with my memory of reading about him. He can make a mace; but, I am really not of the opinion that it would do much damage to Groot.

What we do know is bullets cannot harm Groot. Cops have shot at him with no effect. (This shows how hard his skin...errr, bark...is.) In Marvel Monsters on the Prowl, it took Hulk, Thing, Beast, and Giant Man to defeat him.

The main problem with the idea of Sandman being so strong and able to cut Groot to pieces lies in the fact he's never shown that kind of power. (After all, if the mace could chop the hard, bullet-proof wood of Groot, Spider-Man should have been cut to bits in all the times he's used that against him.) Again, if I see one instance of Sandman cutting people with his powers, I'd acknowledge it.



If Groot's hollow inside, Sandman can do this. I don't know if he is, but the option's there just in case.

Groot, to all my knowledge, is not hollow. He's basically like a walking tree, except he can sprout and make himself larger, if need be.




Even if he hasn't, he's strong enough to bring a room down on Groot. If Groot survives, he could try bringing a whole floor down on him. Eventually the whole building if need be.

This doesn't hold up, as the following quote shows:

"Groot was forced to sprout inside the Spire, growing to colossal size and filling a large portion of the building."

Groot is able to sprout inside the larger portion of a building, effectively taking over it and forming throughout it.

Here is the bad part for Sandman; Sand and Water don't mix, as he learned when facing Hydro-Man. Now, Sandman can live when mixed with water....but, as we've seen in the comics, it takes him a while to regain his form. If he...or Groot...destroys sections of the building that would cause water to spray all over, Sandman is going to have a bit of a problem.



Sandman's got the power to win this. Plus, there's not much Groot can do to hurt him. Marko can just reform himself and slide around any attacks.

As I've said, there really isn't much Sandman can do to Groot. He's very durable, as has been shown in Annihilation and his previous Monster adventures. Also, while we can imagine Sandman's immense power, we've all seen him in his numerous fights with Spider-Man...and, even with Silver Sable. He never has had any kind of attack that chops or cuts people. It's a huge exaggeration to say he has.

What does work to Groot's advantage would be a water attack. It won't kill Sandman; but, it will cause him to be out of action for quite a while. Even if Groot gets outside, he can find a nicely placed fire heidrant within the one block radius.

What the heck, I'll say it, too:

Winner = Groot

[Midnight Ice]

Mister Sinister vs Siena Blaze

This is one of my two matches where I am severely outclassed, and even though I have 5 other matches, I will give this a shot.

Sinister and Blaze will know of each other because I believe they worked together a long time ago to get a DNA sample of Rachel Grey. Those details are sketchy because this happened before I read comics, but I remember reading this during the many hours I have spent reading up on various X-history.

Here are Blaze's powers:disrupt the stability of the Earth’s electromagnetic field, creating massive amounts of explosive power, scrambling the E.M. impulses of other individuals or sources, levitating herself along magnetic ley lines, and allowing her to initiate a teleportation effect which transports her across the planet’s surface while creating a vacuum implosion of energy in her wake

These are a very impressive set of powers, but Sinister is no push over. Because of Blaze's electromagnetic abilities, the buildings defense systems would not prove to be a problem because she could easily disable them.

She could teleport behind Sinister. This would cause the vacuum implosion of energy that would suck Sinister into it. While he was being sucked into this vacuum of energy Blaze would use her power to shoot a massive and powerful blast at Sinister. Between the vacuum and her blast of a massive amount of explosive power, Sinister would be blown apart, possibly on the cellular level.

While I will admit this would not kill Sinister, this may be enough to take him out of the match while he reconstructs himself.

Winner:Siena Blaze

[Phaedrus45]

disregard...this is man-beast, not man wolf.

[Phaedrus45]

Lets see Sersi shows up and man Wolf starts to howl. He has none of his minions and no manhood either. Her beauty is immense overblowing all his defences. She takes this battle with ease and looks forward to her further adventures as the mistress of beauty and transmutation.

Winner - Sersi

Ok, now I've looked into it more; this is Man-Beast, not Man Wolf. Either way, Ahura is going to lose an AWESOME character.

Powers:

Sersi:

*Sersi manipulates cosmic energy to grant herself virtual immortality and invulnerability, reshape the molecules of other people or objects, release heat, light and other energies from her eyes and hands, fly, teleport herself and others, and cast illusions.

Man-Beast:

*The Man-Beast is the most powerful, and most evil of the New Men.

*Extensive knowledge of advance science during mutation, self-educated to an unrevealed level in all known sciences

*Man-Beast has the abilities of both man and wolf, evolved to their peak mental and physical potential. He is an extraordinary genius, with superhuman (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Glossary:S#superhuman) strength (lifting 25 tons), speed, stamina, agility, reflexes, and senses, and he can see into both infrared and ultraviolet ranges. He is highly durable and regenerates from injury, but it is vulnerable to certain high pitched sounds. His vast psychic powers include telepathy, emotion manipulation, hypnotically controlling those of lesser will power, and erecting force barriers capable of repelling Thor (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thor)'s hammer or anti matter barriers capable of disintegrating positive matter. He can possess or adopt the form of others and transform his host body into a replica of his own form.

*Man-Beast has extensive combat knowledge, sensing vulnerable pressure points in the bodies of others. He is a master planner, and an accomplished geneticist and engineer, highly skilled in all known sciences. He once used an alleged advanced scientific technique to disrupt another's sense of time, rendering him unable to move, though he actually may have done this telepathically. His science and technology knowledge was further enhanced by transferring Avian data via Bi-Beast (http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/index.php?title=Bi-Beast&action=edit).

*Man-Beast has worn body armor and used various advanced weapons. He created a Genetic Accelerator duplicate to generate New Men to serve as his followers. His hate amplifier gathers, amplifies, and transmits emotional energy, usually hatred. His cape can teleport (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Glossary:T#teleport) himself and anything within its folds.


This is not as easy as Sersi thinks it will be. Seriously! Look at all the stuff Man-Beast can do!!! If I had to choose between these two characters....I think I'd SERIOUSLY consider keeping Man-Beast!

Winner = Either way, the other contestants win! This is like Ares vs. Sentry, with me not having to face one of them. If I knew Man-Beast was this powerful, he would have been WAAAY higher on my list!

[Ahura Mazda]

I actually realise that Phaed but I think Sersi is more adaptable and could go further in the end game.

It sucks that I have to lose man-beast but that is the way the game goes.

[wiegeabo]

Mister Sinister vs Siena Blaze

This is one of my two matches where I am severely outclassed, and even though I have 5 other matches, I will give this a shot.

Sinister and Blaze will know of each other because I believe they worked together a long time ago to get a DNA sample of Rachel Grey. Those details are sketchy because this happened before I read comics, but I remember reading this during the many hours I have spent reading up on various X-history.

Here are Blaze's powers:disrupt the stability of the Earth’s electromagnetic field, creating massive amounts of explosive power, scrambling the E.M. impulses of other individuals or sources, levitating herself along magnetic ley lines, and allowing her to initiate a teleportation effect which transports her across the planet’s surface while creating a vacuum implosion of energy in her wake

These are a very impressive set of powers, but Sinister is no push over. Because of Blaze's electromagnetic abilities, the buildings defense systems would not prove to be a problem because she could easily disable them.

She could teleport behind Sinister. This would cause the vacuum implosion of energy that would suck Sinister into it. While he was being sucked into this vacuum of energy Blaze would use her power to shoot a massive and powerful blast at Sinister. Between the vacuum and her blast of a massive amount of explosive power, Sinister would be blown apart, possibly on the cellular level.

While I will admit this would not kill Sinister, this may be enough to take him out of the match while he reconstructs himself.

Winner:Siena Blaze


A past history helps Sinister far more than Blaze. This is a man who actually created a virus targeted for Apocolypse that was actually able to be severe enough to force him into hibernation. Doing something similar for Blaze would be child's play. Not only could he kill her, he could find a way to neutralize her powers (in case he wished to study her later).

And in a physical fight, Sinister could pretty much recover from anything Siena throws at him. And that's if she can get around his telepathy and telekinesis.

Sinister is just too much for Blaze to handle.

Mr. Sinister wins

[Phaedrus45]

Debating Is Over!

Voting May Begin!!!!

[Phaedrus45]

My Votes:

*Mr. Sinister - (You know, I almost voted for Blaze; but, so much was left out of this debate, it made it really hard to choose. It sounds as if Siena could bring the whole building down on Sinister...but, I didn't get much about if it takes Sinister a while to recover from injury or what-not. I won't be surprised if either character wins this match, especially since Sinister is a character who works behind the scenes more than in the open.)

*Zzzax

*Man-Beast - (I'm just impressed with all his powers and ruthlessness. If he is around next season, I'd be having him a whole lot higher on my list than he was.)

*Groot

[Franklin Richards]

Mr. Sinister - In the Baxter? I don't like the sounds of that. Imagine what he could do with the info on Franklin Richards alone. Brrrr.


Zzaxx - JH did wave the white flag after all. :D

Sersi - Her and Selene scare the crap out of me.

Sandman - He can make an axe out of his hands.



:thing: :doom: :thing:

[POWdER-man]

Zzax (JH put up the white flag)
Sersi - Hard to see a good character go when it's your own
Sandman - More likely he will hurt Groot then the other way around
Mr Sinister - he is a tough character on paper but a good debate might have swung me the other way

[random_havoc]

zzax

sersi

sandman

sinister

[Vanguard07]

Zzzax,
Sinister
Sersi
Groot

[wiegeabo]

Mr. Sinister

Zzzax - JH had me with his first argument. The water idea was brilliant. But Phaed's evidence was overwhelming.

Sersi - Man-Beast is better than I thought. But Sersi just...kickass

Sandman

[Harlekin]

Siena Blaze - I could see her recklessness winning this.
Zzzax - Great debate.
Sersi - Dealer's choice.
Sandman - His powers are more versatile in this instance.

[Ahura Mazda]

Mr. Sinister - he was mine last season and I don't see him going down here

Zzzax - too strong for the white lady

Sersi - My poor Man-Beast; I thought I would take you farther in this CoM :(

Groot - I would actually think it was tie as I do not see either winning but given one claimed he would I am voting the other :o

[Midnight Ice]

Siena Blaze
Zzzax
Sersi
Sandman

[Phaedrus45]

Final Results:

Mr. Sinister defeats Siena Blaze 7-2

Zzzax defeats La Lunatica 9-0

Sersi defeats Man-Beast 8-1

Sandman defeats Groot 6-3

[CoMarvels]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg


Bracket 7

Match 1:

Reaper (MIDNIGHTICE) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaper_(Marvel_Comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/reaper-1.jpg

vs.

Maximus The Mad (MIDNIGHTICE) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximus_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/maximus-1.jpg

Match 2:

Rom (WIEGEABO) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rom_Spaceknight)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/rom.jpg

vs.

Thundra (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thundra)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/thundra.jpg

[CoMarvels]

Bracket 8

Match 1:

Speedfreek (AHURAMAZDA) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Speedfreek)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/speed.jpg

vs.

Cadaver (HELLSTORMER) link (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/cadaversd.htm)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/cadaver.jpg

Match 2:

Cyclops (JEWISHHOBBIT) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclops_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/cyclops.jpg

vs.

Skullfire (JEWISHHOBBIT) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skullfire)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/skullfire.jpg

[CoMarvels]

Location: Negative Zone Prison Alpha

Introduced in Civil War: Frontline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War:_Front_Line) #5, it is a prison originally constructed to house super-villains but which acted as a holding facility for unregistered heroes during the civil war. The portal to the prison is operated by S.H.I.E.L.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.H.I.E.L.D.) agents. The prison itself is an automated facility. Designed by Reed Richards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Richards) and built by Stark Enterprises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Stark) and Fantastic Four Inc., it is located in the Negative Zone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_Zone). The inmates call the facility "Fantasy Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_Island)", probably because prisoners who are unable to manipulate technology to their own ends are connected to virtual reality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_reality) systems.
It is also referred to as "File 42" due to it being the 42nd item on a list written by Tony Stark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Stark), Reed Richards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Richards) and Hank Pym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Pym) of ways to make a world with super-powered beings safer. The prison is an extremely secure, clean facility with cells custom-designed for each inhabitant. Notable inmates during the war include Daredevil stand-in Danny Rand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist_(comics)), Robbie Baldwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_Baldwin) and Cloak & Dagger. After the war, it is now used for super-villains, and was known to house at the very least Taskmaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taskmaster) and Lady Deathstrike (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Deathstrike) until Taskmaster made a deal with Camp Hammond to become an instructor and Lady Deathstrike somehow escaped as she appeared in X-Men: Messiah Complex. However, the prison was later over run by Negative Zone ruler Blaastar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaastar).


Ok, let's go for that. You can also fight outside the prison...but, the participants will start inside the prison. It would be up to you to get out in the open, if it suits you.

Remember to read up on the Negative Zone, as it can effect emotions of players.

[Midnight Ice]

Reaper vs Maximus

These are both mine, so I think I will pick Maximus. If anybody wants to give their input of how a fight might go, feel free.

[random_havoc]

Reaper vs Maximus

These are both mine, so I think I will pick Maximus. If anybody wants to give their input of how a fight might go, feel free.

Okay, Maximus kills Reaper in the study with the candlestick.

[wiegeabo]

Okay, Maximus kills Reaper in the study with the candlestick.

I knew it!

[Ahura Mazda]

Bracket 8

Match 1:

Speedfreek (AHURAMAZDA) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Speedfreek)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/speed.jpg

vs.

Cadaver (HELLSTORMER) link (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/cadaversd.htm)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/cadaver.jpg


This is a match which I would deem uninteresting in the extreme.

Speedfreak is a man encased in quasi-adamantium armour with weapons made of adamantium and who can propel himsellf at speeds from 150 - 200 mph. He can also fly and has some measure of super strength due to the armour.

Now Cadaver is a creature made of blue mstical flame who can use a bone sword from his body. He heals very quickly.

Now neither character will know each other much but lets be honest given the names and the pictures, one is going to think he is facing a zombie and the other is going to think he is facing a speedster.

If Cadaver had a measure of superspeed I would concede but he does not and that changes things.

Prep time will serve neither character to any degree and in combat they will both go searching each other to confront them. Speedfreak's whole strategy will be cutting up cadaver.

Given his speed and his usual form of combat he should be able to do so without getting hit by cadaver. In so doing he will see that Cadaver heals very quickly. His strategy will be to cut off limbs and race away with them to throw them in the rifts in the negative zone.

Eventually enough will be enough and Cadaver will fall.

Winner - Speedfreek

[Hellstormer]

Cadaver VS. Speedfreak

This is actually an interesting match given that we have two combatants that have weapons capable of hurting Hulk. Honestly Cadaver won't go look for information cause he really doesn't care. What it will basically come down to is whether Speedfreak can cut Cadaver faster than he can heal. I don't see any real battle coming from these two nor do I care.

Winner=Cadaver

[Ahura Mazda]

Cadaver VS. Speedfreak

This is actually an interesting match given that we have two combatants that have weapons capable of hurting Hulk. Honestly Cadaver won't go look for information cause he really doesn't care. What it will basically come down to is whether Speedfreak can cut Cadaver faster than he can heal. I don't see any real battle coming from these two nor do I care.

[/CENTER]

There is really not much of a debate. My contention is that Speedfreak can avoid Cadaver's bone sword that was able to cut the Hulk mystically where he has no measure of superspeed or whether speedfreak can cut and run awy with the pieces leading Cadaver to his doom which could just be a jail cell.

Cadaver does not re-grow his limbs, he re-attaches them.

Winner - Speedfreak

[JewishHobbit]

Skullfire Vs Cyclops

This makes me sad. 2 of my favorate characters that I own and they're facing each other in round 1 :(

I opt to take both with me into round 2 for an unheard of team up! Hey, I'm sure Cyclops could strategically make it work. Right?

[Vanguard07]

Heh, personally I'd put Cyclops through. I think he'd do better.

[JewishHobbit]

That's what I'm thinking, though Skullfire's abilities makes him more versatile. I figure I'll just wait and see who the person who advances will be facing next round.

[JewishHobbit]

Wow... 4 matches, and only 1 debate?! Nuts. I see 2 matches are against the saem opponant, but where's W and Franklin with the Rom/Thundra match? That could be a good one!

[Franklin Richards]

Thundra VS Rom



This is a fight. However Rom is outclassed here. They both have comparable strength but Thundra's fighting skill is quicker and deadlier than Rom's.


Rom is all about flying around and shooting Wraiths. In instances where he's faced anything other than a Wraith he got his butt handed to him. Even that Space Knight chick he loved kicked his butt. So he's got this chivalry thing going on with women to begin with.


Once Thundra gets her chain around ROM it's all over. Thundra can also billiard shot asteroids if things get taken outside. But as for inside she will use her fighting skills.


This is Wonder Woman VS Iron Man. But Iron Man has only a couple of tricks and neither one works on Wonder Woman.


As far as the tech in the prison. It's a push. Both are from advanced civilizations. Thundra from the future. ROM from space. It's a push.


But as long as Thundra can connect she'll win. ROM is not much of a guerrilla fighter. He's a Knight. He'll face her in combat.



Thundra Wins!



:thing: :thing: :thing:

[wiegeabo]

Thanks JH. I was gonna sneak a Rom debate in at the last second, but then you tipped Franklin off. :p

[wiegeabo]

Rom vs Thundra


Thundra's a skilled warrior. Strong and agile, and smart. But so is Rom. Rom's among the greatest of the Space Knights. He's also a highly skilled warrior. But he has far more weapons at his disposal than Thundra.

First off, his armor will protest him from Thundra's attack. And if he takes any damage from her, his systems can autorepair.

He's also got his Neutralizer, his homeworld's most powerful weapon. Rom's taken on a planet of enemies by himself, and fought against powerful characters before. Thundra's not that much of a threat to him.


Rom wins

[wiegeabo]

Thundra VS Rom



This is a fight. However Rom is outclassed here. They both have comparable strength but Thundra's fighting skill is quicker and deadlier than Rom's.

Rom has plenty of fighting skill. He's the greatest of the Space Knights. He's also got the long range weapon advantage over Thundra.


Rom is all about flying around and shooting Wraiths. In instances where he's faced anything other than a Wraith he got his butt handed to him. Even that Space Knight chick he loved kicked his butt. So he's got this chivalry thing going on with women to begin with.

He let the woman he loved defeat him. He'll have no such qualms about beating a woman he's never met and is fighting in a tournamen.


Once Thundra gets her chain around ROM it's all over. Thundra can also billiard shot asteroids if things get taken outside. But as for inside she will use her fighting skills.

All Rom has to do is fly up and out of the prison into space. Rom may or may not kill her, but she'll eventually pass out and Rom can return her to the prison in victory.

Or he can fire a blast of energy at her, or at the chain to break it.


This is Wonder Woman VS Iron Man. But Iron Man has only a couple of tricks and neither one works on Wonder Woman.

Not a really fair comparison since WW is on par with Superman in most respects, while the other three are below that.


As far as the tech in the prison. It's a push. Both are from advanced civilizations. Thundra from the future. ROM from space. It's a push.


But as long as Thundra can connect she'll win. ROM is not much of a guerrilla fighter. He's a Knight. He'll face her in combat.


I'd say Rom has the advantage technologically because I haven't read anything saying that Thundra was technologically adept, but saying it's a push is fine.

Thing is, even if their technological skill is similar, Rom still has an advantage with his armor. For example, if Rom floods the prison with knockout gas, he'll be fine because his suits allows him to breath in any atmosphere. Thundra has to breath.


Rom wins

[JewishHobbit]

Debating is ended

Voting May Now Begin

[Ahura Mazda]

Maximus
Skullfire
Speedfreak
Rom - He is more versatile and less likely to be affected by the exposure to the negative zone

[random_havoc]

Rom
Maximus
Speed Freak
Cyclops

[POWdER-man]

Rom
Cyclops
Maximus
Speedfreak

[Phaedrus45]

My Votes:

*Maximus - (A no-brainer for me.)

*Rom - (Rom's flight really gives him a humongous advantage in this battle.)

*Speedfreek

*Skullfire - (Sure, Cyclops has the experience...but, look at Skullfire's powers: "-Ability to absorb and rechannel energy around him
-Levitation" If he can absorb and rechannel energy, wouldn't he be able to absorb Cyclop's beams??!!?? I think Skullfire might easily take this one, especially since Scott won't be able to find out jack about him...yet, Skullfire will CLEARLY know who Cyclops is, even that far in the future!)

[wiegeabo]

Maximus

Rom

Speedfreak

Skullfire - I remember him being a pain to fight in prior seasons

[wiegeabo]

Maximus

Rom

Speedfreak

Skullfire - I remember him being a pain to fight in prior seasons

[Midnight Ice]

Maximus
Skullfire
Speedfreak
Rom

[JewishHobbit]

Hey! No Fair! W can't vote twice!

Give a guy a little power and he thinks he can rule the world... I'm tellin' ya'!

[Vanguard07]

Cyclops
Rom
Speedfreak
Maximus

[wiegeabo]

Hey! No Fair! W can't vote twice!

Give a guy a little power and he thinks he can rule the world... I'm tellin' ya'!

You have foiled another of my plans!

There will not be a third time. :cmad:




:p

[Franklin Richards]

Thundra
Maximus
Speedfreak
Cyclops



:thing: :thing: :thing:

[Harlekin]

Maximus the Mad
Rom
Speedfreek
Skullfire

[Phaedrus45]

Voting Is Over!

Maximus The Mad defeats Reaper 9-0
Rom defeats Thundra 8-1
Speedfreek defeats Cadaver 9-0
Skullfire defeats Cyclops 5-4

[CoMarvels]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg


Bracket 7

Match 1:

Hydro-Man (WIEGEABO) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Man)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/hydro.jpg

vs.

Rhino (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhino_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/rhino-1.jpg

Match 2:

Vibraxas (WIEGEABO) link (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/vibraxasff.htm)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/vibrax.jpg

vs.

Slapstick (JEWISHHOBBIT) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slapstick_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/slapstick.jpg

[CoMarvels]

Bracket 8

Match 1:

Nova Omega (PHAEDRUS45) link (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Nova_Omega_(Garthan_Saal))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/novaomega.jpg

vs.

Meanstreak (JEWISHHOBBIT) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meanstreak_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/meanstreak.jpg

Match 2:

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/iron.jpg

vs.

Thunderbird-Exiles (JEWISHHOBBIT) link (http://www.mutanthigh.com/alternatex/exiles/thunderbird.html)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/tbird-1.jpg

[CoMarvels]

Location: SHIELD Helicarrier

The Helicarrier is a fictional flying aircraft carrier specifically designed to be itself capable of independent powered flight in addition to the conventional functions of aircraft carriers.

As the Helicarrier can fly on it's own, it will be unoccupied, except for the combatants. If it goes down, let's figure it will land in the Arizona desert, with no towns nearby. Consider it a 2-mile radius if it crashes.

[CoMarvels]

Debating May Begin!!!

[Phaedrus45]

Opening Debate: Nova Omega vs. Meanstreak

For clarification, this is Nova Omega powers, as seen in Nova #17; not Super-Nova, which would have been too uber for this contest.

Bios:

Nova Omega:

*Superhuman strength and durability, as well as enhanced stamina and agility.

*He can fly in air or space, unleash force blasts, and analyze and absorb certain energy types.

*He's been trained in various forms of combat.

*Uniform: Made of unidentified materials that were highly resistant to damage, heat and cold including the extremes of outer space. The helmets contain advanced circuitry which enables Centurions to monitor and make radio transmissions. The helmets also include a malleable Xandarian alloy which could lower to cover the face by cybernetic command or via sensors in the uniform which could sense changes in pressure and atmosphere and activate automatically.

*Information on how how Nova Omega's classification as a Centurion makes him elite: Centurions are the top tier of the Nova Corps. It is from the Centurions that the Centurion Nova Prime is normally selected. Extreme circumstances allow the Prime to circumvent the standard procedure. Their powers are the same as a Centurion Nova Prime with the exception of energy absorption, the gravimetric pulse and the electromagnetic static burst. Centurions can command standard starships and are trained to be exceptional fighters and pilots. A Centurion can lift approximately 20 tons.

Meanstreak:

*Meanstreak is able to move at superhuman speeds, close to mach speed. He also has increased reflexes, stamina, and thought processes. His metabolism is equally enhanced to keep up with his speed, allowing him to heal faster than normal.

*Meanstreak is an accomplished media pirate and hacker, able to manipulate computers and most security systems with ease.


Meanstreak has one thing going for him in this battle: He can hack into the SHIELD helicarrier to get into the security systems. But, that about covers it.

Nova Omega is a Centurion class Nova Corp member, meaning he's the top tier. He's got the training to handle most any battle, and Meanstreak won't pose that much of a problem.

Meanstreak is extremely fast; but, it would appear that Nova Omega is the same. (In the Marvel Handbook, his speed on a scale of 1-7 is a 6.) So, Meanstreak's main power can easily be handled.

Now, as I said, Meanstreak could hack into the SHIELD helicarrier security systems; but, that won't do him much good. Nova Omega won't be detered by those means, and doesn't even need to stay on the Helicarrier to take out Meanstreak. With Nova Omega's powers, he can simply take down the helicarrier, with Meanstreak on board. And, with flight powers, Meanstreak can never touch Nova Omega.

Winner = Nova Omega

[JewishHobbit]

Meanstreak Vs Nova Omega

Okay, my first thought was that Meanstreak will probably be outclassed, but that was until I did some research. My original thinking was that Nova Omega was uber powerful, but I was thinking of Supernova, and after reading some bios and the comics I have with him in it (I'm only missing the 2 Nova issues he was in) he's not much more than a basic Nova Centurian. And though I don't have the Nova issues, I did find this little nugget from Nova Omega's bio interesting:

The ship crashed on Earth, and Volx escaped when Rider (Nova) spitefully shot Saal (Nova Omega) with a blaster.

Saal is Nova Omega and it states that he later persued Volx and was defeated. I assumed Nova Omega to be this untouchable powerhouse but he can be stopped by being shot. And if I'm reading right, this was after Nova (Rider) was depowered, so it wasn't a Nova powered shot either... just a typical Marvel Comics blaster. What's this tell us? That Nova Omega is subseptable to blaster shots, and what's the SHIELD Helecarrier full of? Blasters?!!!

Now continuing... I don't want to down play Nova Omega. A Nova Centurian really is a major threat. He's strong, fast, and has all the things that makes Nova awsome (though, to a lesser degree than the Nova we've been reading of late thanks to his now having the Worldmind with him). He's just a highly trained and skilled basic Nova Centurian.

Now, on to Meanstreak.

Being a huge fan of Meanstreak in X-Men 2099, I know a lot about the guy. Dude can run very quickly, think quickly, do computers at warp speed, and he's extremely smart, especially when it comes to technology. And not only that, but he's smart with technology 100 years more advanced than today stuff, including the Helecarrier.

Now, prep time is really only good for one thing. Thinking. Nova Omega would have nothing on Meanstreak and Meanstreak would have nothing on Nova Omega. Meanstreak could try to do some data search, but it won't help. So what's this do? It'll give Meanstreak time to decide if he wants to engage this complete mystery, but judging by his picture and name, he probably sounds like a bit more than Meanstreak's use to. So when the battle comes, I think Meanstreak will likely try to outthink this battle, not go into it with brute force.

Thus, something Meanstreak did in nearly every battle he was ever in, he didn't attac first, he searched the area and scowered any technological means he could find. At his speeds it shouldn't be long for him to find some control panel to access the Hellicarrier's systems and with his technological genious, finger typing and thinking speed, I don't imagine it being more than 40 seconds before he's into their systems, reading up on everything he can find, and accessing everything he can. I'd imagine for a techy like Meanstreak, the Hellicarrier is a nerds playground!

So I'd assume that within a minute, Meanstreak can arrive at the battle, find a mainstream computer, break the codes, and have access to security cameras, security systems, etc. He'll know where Nova Omega is and he'll know all the systems that he can access to take Nova Omega on. He's a smart guy, so random fire won't be the first attack. He'll strategically use the Hellicarrier in his assault. He'll ready the guns, the blasters (and we already know Nova Omega can be taken down by them), and imagine the Life Model Decoys of Fury or whoever else he can access! He can ready ALL OF THEM and just have them ready. Within a good minute or two Meanstreak can have an army of Nick Fury's, all the security systems of the Hellicarrier, and push come to shove, even the nukes that I've read on some Hellicarier bios I've looked up. I don't imagine him intending to use the nukes, but push come to shove, that's something. Especially over the Arizona dessert, no one gets hurt besides Nova Omega (as I'm sure if he knows it's going to launch, Meanstreak with run his but out of that ship and as far away as it takes to escape detination).

However, I don't think it'll come to that. So within 1 to 2 minutes the whole Hellicarrier is armed and ready for the battle and Meanstreak knows exactly where Nova Omega is. Now, I know that Nova Omega has the speed to match Meanstreak, but it's mostly when he's out in the open. He can definatley dodge and such, but he's in a closed quarters, so he's limited. Also, while Nova Omega can fly to search, and he may, from what I've seen in the issues I've read, he doesn't just fly randomly, he is careful. He'll move quickly, but he doesn't want to fly into a trap. Sadly, he won't know that he's being watched. Meanstreak will control the LMD's to hunt him. Knowing where he is, he'll send them all (and I'm sure it's a whole heck of a lot). So at some point when Nova isn't ready, there's suddenly a whole fleet of Nick Fury's opening blaster fire on Nova. The surprise assault will result in battle, but lets not forget... these aren't just brainless robots, they're based on Nick Fury's training. They know what they're doing. They're tougher than most military people you'll ever meet. They can hold their own, and there's a small army of them in most probably a tight quarter, making Nova Omega's offensive options few. I'd imagine that if a single blaster by Richard Rider, who isn't one to use a blaster, can hurt Nova Omega, a small army of Nick Fury trained LMD's blaster fire should do a bang up job. Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure Nova Omega will hold his own. Again, a Nova Centurian isn't a wuss. And he may even get out of this one alive, but he will definately be beat down by this initial assault.

If you think the LMD's could win Meanstreak the match, awsome. If not, you have to admit he'd be warn out. So then he continues and Meanstreak is still watching him. Meanstreak will know where every blaster and defense is. He'll watch carefully as Nova Omega approaches them unknowingly and he'll open fire when he knows he can hit. If a single blaster can take Nova Omega down, these following the LMD's could definately do it. And if it doesn't, then he's even more warn out. And he continues on.

Now by this point I'd say he's either going to just charge looking for his foe at top speeds as his stamina allows. Or, he's going to take it outside and search outside the building. Thing is, he can't find Meanstreak from outside and Nova Omega isn't going to just randomly chaotically destroy the Hellicarrier because he's not like that. He was once insane, but he's not now. He's still searching for Meanstreak and has no idea where he is. And if he's still inside, there's more of the same to confront, and if he's outside the Hellicarrier then he's now dealing with the exterior offensive fire, as well as any number of flying cars and such with their own gunpower. It's still a dog fight out there, and while Nova Omega has more room to maneuver, he's already warn down, and fighting these things outside is doing nothing toward his finding Meanstreak and only wearing him out even more. Not to mention, the Hellicarrier has missiles that he could be hit with now. Fun stuff! So in essence, it's still just benefiting Meanstreak.

So I can go on forever on the Hellicarrier defenses, but you get the idea. Now personally, I don't think for a second that Nova Omega would get beyond this point. Let's remember, the Hellicarrier isn't just some dude's ship, it's the hieght of military intelligence and technology and it's weapons and weapon systems are extremely dangerous.

However, if Nova Omega does survive through this, he will be warn out. Yes, he has higher stamina than most (as does Nova) but Nova has been shown to wear out after extensive battle or dodging, etc. Even when he's at his hight of late. Nova Omega is nowhere NEAR that and so he would definatley be warn out. If Meanstreak finds that he's at the point where he's utilized all he can of the Hellicarrier, he'll know Nova Omega is at his lowest point and he'll know exactly where he is. So then he'd just run his speed and initiate the attack, and an attack at that point will most definately come unseen. Nova Omega could keep up with Meanstreak when he's in good shape, but being already warn out, I'd imagine that it'd only take several high speed blows to the head to finally put him down. Not to mention, Meanstreak's been watching Nova Omega fight this whole time and can see that it's the arms that primarilly chanel his energy. So I'm thinking that after an initial highspeed blow to the head to further disorient him will be followed by high speed attacks at the arms to break them and make it harder to channel the energy. Meanstreak isn't standing there and punching, he's running in and out at speeds leaving him a blur or unseen entirely. Nova Omega is warn out already and may want to fight back at those speeds but he won't be able to. Honestly, within a second or two Meanstreak could have already gotten maybe 4 or 5 blows to Nova Omega's head and broken both his arms.

A straight up fight between Meanstreak and Nova Omega in the open would be Meanstreak's demise, but the location really works for Meanstreak here. He's smart, a technological genious, and he has 24 hours preptime to consider the match so he doesn't just rush into it or let his temper get the best of him. Nova Omega is powerful, but in this scenario, I think Meanstreak and the Hellicarrier pull off the win.

Winner - Meanstreak

[Phaedrus45]

Opening Debate: T-Bird vs. Iron Man

Bios:

T-Bird:

*John Proudstar has the mutant abililties of super-speed and -strength.

*After being experimented on by Apocalypse, John's strength was increased and battle armor plates added to his body. He is able to transform into a ferocious, almost dinosaur-like battle mode. Apocalypse also made him nearly impercious to the elements, allowing him to survive without breathing and possibly without food.

Iron Man:

*Iron Man possesses powered armor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_exoskeleton) that gives him superhuman strength and durability, flight, and an array of weapons.

*The weapons systems of the suit have changed over the years, but Iron Man's standard offensive weapons have always been the repulsor rays that are fired from the palms of his gauntlets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauntlet). Other weapons built into various incarnations of the armor include: the uni-beam projector in its chest; pulse bolts (that pick up on kinetic energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy) along the way; so the farther they travel, the harder they hit); an electromagnetic pulse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse) generator; and a defensive energy shield that can be extended up to 360 degrees. Other capabilities include: generating ultra-freon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freon) (i.e., a freeze-beam); creating and manipulating magnetic fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field); emitting sonic blasts; and projecting 3-dimensional holograms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologram) (to create decoys).

*When Stark was unable to use his armor for a period of time, he asked for some combat training from Captain America and has become physically formidable on his own when the situation demands it.


One big difference this season from the last is that Tony does not have the Extremist Armor in his body any longer, due to events in Secret Invasion. Because of this, it's hard to get a clear indication of his true powerset. BUT, it's still easy to see this battle favors Tony in many ways.

T-Bird has one thing going for him: He is powerful.(On the Marvel Handbook, out of 1-7, Strength is a 7.) His durability is almost just as impressive. (Handbook, 1-7, he's a 6.) The problem is his speed and intelligence is quite low. (Same scale, he's a 2 on both.)

What T-Bird might gain in strength (he's on point above Tony in this...Tony is a 6), they are equal in agility, and Tony totally outclasses him in Intelligence, Speed, and Energy Projection. (All 6's, except for Speed, which is a 5.)

The location is totally in Tony's favor. He knows the SHIELD helicarrier in and out. He can use any of it's security and defenses to his advantage, and will know where T-Bird is at all times. Also, the following points out:

Built by Stark Industries and designed by Tony Stark, Dr. Reed Richards, and Forge. In addition to housing a wing of fighters and other aircraft, the Helicarrier bristles with advanced weaponry, including an intercontinental ballistic missile.


With his own armor, he can access T-Bird's powers, as his "holographic generator ... can both disguise the armor and project images to distract and confuse opponents."

Neither character will know a whole lot about the other. Sure, T-Bird might be a bit familiar with Iron Man; but, he does not have access to the Panoptichron. (He went into a coma before the Exiles gained control of it, and after he woke from his coma, went away to live in peace. He simply does not have access to information any longer, as he left the Exiles.) Tony will know who 616 versions of Thunderbird is; but, he'll clearly see from the picture that this version has been greatly enhanced. The muscles are a clear give-away that he'd have some great strength. (Plus, the Exiles, with T-Bird have visited Earth 616 on occassion; so, if SHIELD has any knowledge of this, Tony would too.)

So, Tony will know not to engage T-Bird in close quarter contact, and to gain information on his opponent any way possible before engaging him in battle. Tony has a flight advantage, and can easily find his way to the outside of the Helicarrier, too. With flight, T-bird cannot come into contact with Tony; yet, Tony can still have total access to the Helicarrier. He can easily lead T-Bird outside, or engage him in battle from within.

Now, T-bird is very durable; so, it might be in Tony's best interest to lead T-bird to be captured and contained. This has been done with some of the baddest of the bad, and the Helicarrier would have areas for dampening powers of super-powered individuals. They've held them there before, and it's listed in features that the Helicarrier has detainment cells.

When looking at the battle, as I've noted, T-Bird has only one advantage, that being his strength. All other aspects of this battle, of which there are many (including location), all favor Tony.

Winner = Iron Man

[Phaedrus45]

The ship crashed on Earth, and Volx escaped when Rider (Nova) spitefully shot Saal (Nova Omega) with a blaster.

This is a very misleading quote. Let's look at a better quote that describes the actual events:

"The ship crashed on Earth, though Sall saved it from total destruction. Volx emerged, preparing to slay Rider, but Saal arrived. Rider used an energy rifle and fired high at Volx, who dodged so that Saal was struck instead. Volx escaped, and Saal took Rider's weapon and shattered it, clarifying that Volx was not a skrull as Rider assumed, but something much worse. Saal grabbed a scanner from the ship's wreckage and began tracking Volx, leaving Rider stranded in the woods in the middle of nowhere."

Now, this is QUITE a bit different from the small quote before. This shows Volx jumped out of the way of the blaster, and while it hit Saal, it didn't hurt him. He chastized Rider while smashing the "energy rifle." It also shows that Saal has acces to a scanner that can track opponents, like Meanstreak.


Saal is Nova Omega and it states that he later persued Volx and was defeated. I assumed Nova Omega to be this untouchable powerhouse but he can be stopped by being shot. And if I'm reading right, this was after Nova (Rider) was depowered, so it wasn't a Nova powered shot either... just a typical Marvel Comics blaster. What's this tell us? That Nova Omega is subseptable to blaster shots, and what's the SHIELD Helecarrier full of? Blasters?!!!

Now, let's not confuse the voters with bait and switch tactics. Nova Omega is not facing a Dire Wraith Queen. He's facing a speedster who can access computers with ease. This is apples and oranges, especially since Nova Omega is probably just as fast as Meanstreak, and has expertice of many kinds of starships and the such.

Also, while it's pointed out that Nova Omega was captured by Volx, it isn't pointed out on the second battle, Nova Omega went hand to hand and was the person who defeated him in combat.

Being a huge fan of Meanstreak in X-Men 2099, I know a lot about the guy. Dude can run very quickly, think quickly, do computers at warp speed, and he's extremely smart, especially when it comes to technology. And not only that, but he's smart with technology 100 years more advanced than today stuff, including the Helecarrier.

There is a problem in this statement. I'll use today's standards as my measuring tool. If you have a kid today, who is very computer savy and aware of all the latest things go back 20 or 30 years, how do you think he'd do with old technology? He'd be confused! Before Windows, we were dealing with DOS! I know I wouldn't know how to use DOS anymore.

Now, prep time is really only good for one thing. Thinking. Nova Omega would have nothing on Meanstreak and Meanstreak would have nothing on Nova Omega. Meanstreak could try to do some data search, but it won't help. So what's this do? It'll give Meanstreak time to decide if he wants to engage this complete mystery, but judging by his picture and name, he probably sounds like a bit more than Meanstreak's use to. So when the battle comes, I think Meanstreak will likely try to outthink this battle, not go into it with brute force.

I agree. Meanstreak does not have brute force, anyway. But, Nova Omega does. As with that ship that he saved from destruction, Nova Omega will know the best way to take out his opponent is to simply destroy the ship and bring it down, much like many less powerful opponents have done in the past. (Face it, SHIELD helicarriers get taken out almost on a yearly basis.)

Thus, something Meanstreak did in nearly every battle he was ever in, he didn't attac first, he searched the area and scowered any technological means he could find. At his speeds it shouldn't be long for him to find some control panel to access the Hellicarrier's systems and with his technological genious, finger typing and thinking speed, I don't imagine it being more than 40 seconds before he's into their systems, reading up on everything he can find, and accessing everything he can. I'd imagine for a techy like Meanstreak, the Hellicarrier is a nerds playground!

First, let's remember the Meanstreak has a limit to his first power, as it says,

"He can only run for small periods of time."

Second, I'm trying to find out how much of a "nerd" Meanstreak really is. What computer expertise does he really have? Let's look at some quotes:

"First, Jack, with the technological help of Henri, transferred most of their fortune into his own bank account and then ousted the siblings in order to gain control of the casino."

"Meanstreak helped him construct this machine and they actually started it but, now President, Doom arrived and shut it down because of its unstability. Jack had meant to allow the device to warp the whole planet into a state of chaos, but President Doom surrounded the city with EMP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse) devices which quarantined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarantine) the city."

Now, after reading that, and what other stuff I could find on the internet, I gained a better understanding of Meanstreak. First, while Meanstreak constructed a machine, Doom easily shut it down. (It shows Meanstreak's abilities at creating stuff, which is easily taken over by someone superior to him.) Second, I see no mention about Meanstreak being able to hack into a system and taking over the security measures. He could bust people out of jail, and hack into a casino's systems...but, there is no indication that he can deal with anything advanced, like SHIELD security made by Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Forge. (And, let me say, it's CLEAR Meanstreak is no Tony Stark, Reed Richards, or Forge.) Also, Meanstreak seemed to get captured on at least three occassions.

So I'd assume that within a minute, Meanstreak can arrive at the battle, find a mainstream computer, break the codes, and have access to security cameras, security systems, etc. He'll know where Nova Omega is and he'll know all the systems that he can access to take Nova Omega on.

I'm not going to quote all the stuff that is supposed that Meanstreak would do with the Helicarrier's security; because, I'll just ask one simple question. Please show an occassion where Meanstreak has shown the ability to do what is said with the Helicarrier's security systems. Meanstreak is an "accomplished media pirate and hacker" and able to "manipulate computers and most security systems." But, there is NO INDICATION that he's on the level to take on a security system built by Tony Stark. It's NEVER been shown in the comics that I can see.


It's clear that Meanstreak's powers are being WAAAY over-inflated. If I'm shown otherwise, where he gets control of a security system, especially one that's so advanced as Tony Starks, I'd go into debating all the points below that previous quote; but, I don't see it.

NOW, I do have one more bit of information I learned about Nova Omega's powers, from the Official Handbook:

"Nova Omega is a teleporter."

That means, Nova Omega can remove himself from a bad situation, going inside or outside the helicarrier, if need be. Also, with a scanner, he can track Meanstreak quite easily, especially since he's the only other person on board. (And, Nova Omega has the speed to do that very quickly, as I've shown.)

Finally, I want to point out that Meanstreak is not very durable, and is easily removed from battle.

"When the Graverobber and his Undead attacked, Meanstreak fought them with the rest of the X-Men, but the muscles of his legs were cut by a charged card thrown by the Undead member, Arcadian, keeping him out of the rest of the fight."

You take out his legs, you take away his main power. Also, as I pointed out, on at least three occassions, I've read about Meanstreak being captured. And, most every battle Meanstreak has engaged in has been with other members of the X-Men 2099.

Winner = Nova Omega

[JewishHobbit]

Slapstick Vs Vibraxas

Okay, this isn't one of those matches where one person is outclassed, but rather one where there's not really anything one can do to harm the other one. Fortunately, I have the one who is difficult to harm. Vibraxas is a great character but I don't think his powers could really do much to harm Slapstick. Vibraxas can create vibrations and use it to varying degrees. Slapstick is pretty much a looney toon with all the perks.

Vibraxas can try to grab hold of Slapstick to vibrate him but chances are Slapstick will just go all over and then round himself up again and continue on. Vibraxas can attempt to vibrate the area or send a vibrating beam through the floor but it won't do much. He can try to bring the ceiling down on Slapstick but he'd just be smooshed and slither out, or maybe turn into a rocket and shoot out (if he can do that, I'm not sure but it's looneytoonish).

However, Vibraxas is no speedster or anything and Slapstick can most certain beat the crap out of him with a huge old mallet. Vibraxas has some training but he's nowhere NEAR as trained as the Gauntlet but Slapstick was still able to beat the crap out of him. Vibraxas' powers may have some effect, but I don't think it'd be enough to really beat Slapstick and I think Slapstick would be able to beat down Vibraxas before anything would really be found to actually take Slapstick out.s

Winner - Slapstick

[JewishHobbit]

Thunderbird (Exiles) Vs Iron Man

Thunderbird (Exiles) vs Iron Man inside of the Hellicarrier? Totally Thunderbird’s advantage! The HECK you say?! I’ll explain later, but first, let’s figure out mindsets.

Preptime: Thunderbird, having traveled several worlds and met several Iron Mans, would have an idea of Iron Man, but all that really matters from this is that he knows Iron Man is a man in a suit. Iron Man will be familiar with the Thunderbird of 616 but seeing that this picture isn’t the Thunderbird he knows, he’ll be cautious. He can see that Thunderbird’s somehow advanced and will want to see him in action and test him first. He will be on the Hellicarrier and that will be the perfect opportunity, and that is what will really give Thunderbird the advantage. The HECK you say?! I’m gettin’ to it!

You see, Thunderbird from Exiles has been enhanced by Apocalypse and became War. He overcame his programming and now he’s good. However, he can further enhance himself when enraged. This increases his strength, stamina, senses (specifically sense of smell), etc.

Example: During a battle with the Savage Hulk, Thunderbird took the beatings and became so enraged that he became further enhanced and then beat the living tar out of Savage Hulk and defeated him in physical battle. This says 2 things. First is that if he can take physical blows by Savage Hulk and not be put down, then he can take most any physical attack Iron Man has to offer (whether himself or with the Hellicarrier). Second, his rages are more powerful than Savage Hulk, and we all know how powerful that is. So we can all see how powerful Thunderbird can become. And just to pass along the idea of how bad he beat down the Hulk:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/hvtb01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/hvtb02.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/hvtb03.jpg

However, he can evolve even further than that. When he and a whole army of people are facing off against Galactus, he enhances again and showed his real strength by punching a whole into the back of Galactus so that he could plant a bomb in it, chasing Galactus away. What’s this tell me? If Thunderbird can punch a hole in Galactus’ hide, tearing Iron Man’s armor apart shouldn’t be much of a problem. Some examples:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/hvtb04.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/hvtb05.jpg

Okay, so all this has shown that Thunderbird can take a physical beating and only gets stronger to amazing strengths. But how does Iron Man on the Hellicarrier HELP Thunderbird? Here’s how. Iron Man will obviously use the Hellicarrier to his advantage and use it to test Thunderbird and try to wear him down. However, it will only go toward angering him, wearing him, and ultimately, infuriating him and enhancing him. If he can take blows with the Hulk, he can take lazers and LMD’s and whatnot. Once he enhances to the above shown forms, his senses will also greatly enhance and he should be able to then track down Iron Man, so that makes finding Iron Man much easier. So then either when he finds Iron Man or Iron Man attacks him upon realizing the ship isn’t helping, he’ll have the strength, stamina, and agility to hang with Iron Man. But then not only that, but his strength is maxed out and he should have no problem tearing the Iron Man armor off of Tony Stark or at least damaging it enough to really take him out of the battle. He can take the repulsar rays. He can take the strength. He can take anything Iron Man can dish. But once Thunderbird gets ahold of him, and it sure won’t be hard, even with Iron Man’s flight, that armor is torn from end to end and Iron Man is about destroyed in the process.

So that’s that. The Hellicarrier is a bad weapon and Iron Man is the best at using it (besides maybe Fury) but in this situation it only helps Thunderbird because it’ll enrage him, enfuriate him, and even help him find Iron Man.

So in the end, Iron Man in the Hellicarrier vs Thunderbird (Exiles)???

Winner – Thunderbird (Exiles)

[Phaedrus45]

Rebuttal: T-Bird vs. Iron Man

There are some glaring inaccuracies in this argument that need to be disputed, especially after I went to the source, the (few) appearances that T-Bird made in the Exiles comics. Read on.

Preptime: Thunderbird, having traveled several worlds and met several Iron Mans, would have an idea of Iron Man, but all that really matters from this is that he knows Iron Man is a man in a suit.

BIG inaccuracy! T-Bird NEVER met Iron Man in his (very few) adventures with the Exiles. He only appeared in issues 1-10, before his fateful adventure with Galactus. I don't recall Iron Man even being in Age Of Apocalypse...SO, it's fair to say that T-Bird has NO IDEA who Iron Man is.

Iron Man will be familiar with the Thunderbird of 616 but seeing that this picture isn’t the Thunderbird he knows, he’ll be cautious. He can see that Thunderbird’s somehow advanced and will want to see him in action and test him first. He will be on the Hellicarrier and that will be the perfect opportunity, and that is what will really give Thunderbird the advantage.

Now, T-Bird isn't known for his stealth. He's known for his hand to hand combat, up close and personal. Iron Man...HE'S about stealth! But, T-Bird faced one type of opponent in his adventures...the big guys, like Strong Guy, Hulk, and Juggernaut (without his costume).

You see, Thunderbird from Exiles has been enhanced by Apocalypse and became War. He overcame his programming and now he’s good. However, he can further enhance himself when enraged. This increases his strength, stamina, senses (specifically sense of smell), etc.

Only one time in Exiles did he lose it, and that was in his fight with Hulk. (And, this was only in his second battle with Hulk.) It is not in his nature to lose control, unless pushed to the extreme.

During a battle with the Savage Hulk, Thunderbird took the beatings and became so enraged that he became further enhanced and then beat the living tar out of Savage Hulk and defeated him in physical battle. This says 2 things. First is that if he can take physical blows by Savage Hulk and not be put down, then he can take most any physical attack Iron Man has to offer (whether himself or with the Hellicarrier). Second, his rages are more powerful than Savage Hulk, and we all know how powerful that is. So we can all see how powerful Thunderbird can become.

Again, there are some inaccuracies in this statement. First, it is said, "he can take physical blows by Savage Hulk and not be put down." WRONG! In the first part of the story, issue #5, T-Bird gets taken down by the Hulk TWICE! Once, when T-Bird and the rest of the Exiles are taken by surprise...and, second, when he first fights the Hulk. It isn't until he goes savage, which is only seen this one time in the Exiles comics, that he defeats him...AFTER a bunch of other characters have turned Hulk quite savage.


However, he can evolve even further than that. When he and a whole army of people are facing off against Galactus, he enhances again and showed his real strength by punching a whole into the back of Galactus so that he could plant a bomb in it, chasing Galactus away. What’s this tell me? If Thunderbird can punch a hole in Galactus’ hide, tearing Iron Man’s armor apart shouldn’t be much of a problem.

Just to point this out again, it's the bomb that takes out Galactus, not T-Bird's punch.

Here is the problem with the argument. Iron Man does not have to come into physical contact with Thunderbird. He will have sensors and full access to the Helicarrier, even when outside of it. T-Bird cannot fly, thus he cannot get to Iron Man, also. Iron Man knows he's going against a mutant, that will be for certain. Also, as I've mentioned, it's obvious this character is enhanced with strength. The Helicarrier does have areas that are used to detain high powered individuals, and it would be easy to Iron Man to lead T-Bird in that direction. (And, Iron Man doesn't have to worry about working T-Bird into a frenzy...after all, there is proof in Exiles #8 or #9, where we see his powers taken away with a power dampener, where he is forced to battle Strong Guy.)


So that’s that. The Hellicarrier is a bad weapon and Iron Man is the best at using it (besides maybe Fury) but in this situation it only helps Thunderbird because it’ll enrage him, enfuriate him, and even help him find Iron Man.

I skipped quite a bit, because it infers that Iron Man is idiotic enough to just attack T-Bird at close range, and will only try to piss him off. Tony Stark is a genius, UNLIKE T-Bird, and will not go into a battle half-cocked. T-Bird has ALWAYS only faced one type of opponent, and that is the heavy hitters. (The exception is Galactus....and, the only thing he did to him is punch a hole in his armor and plant a bomb. AND, with the page that is left out, that fits in between the two shown, it states, "Galactus's armor is more function than form.")

Again, T-Bird has ONE thing going for him, he's very strong and durable. But, Iron Man outclasses him in all other areas.

Winner = Iron Man

[JewishHobbit]

Okay, now to get to some of these rebuttals. And with both of my Phaed debates and my W debate in this thread I feel sorry for the readers.

MEANSTREAK VS NOVA OMEGA REBUTTAL

Okay, I was going t rebute Phaed's opening argument but I think everything he said I addressed in my opening argument, so I'll let that speak also as a rebuttal. Now then, I'll move on to Phaed's rebuttal of my opening argument.

This is a very misleading quote. Let's look at a better quote that describes the actual events:

"The ship crashed on Earth, though Sall saved it from total destruction. Volx emerged, preparing to slay Rider, but Saal arrived. Rider used an energy rifle and fired high at Volx, who dodged so that Saal was struck instead. Volx escaped, and Saal took Rider's weapon and shattered it, clarifying that Volx was not a skrull as Rider assumed, but something much worse. Saal grabbed a scanner from the ship's wreckage and began tracking Volx, leaving Rider stranded in the woods in the middle of nowhere."

Now, this is QUITE a bit different from the small quote before. This shows Volx jumped out of the way of the blaster, and while it hit Saal, it didn't hurt him. He chastized Rider while smashing the "energy rifle." It also shows that Saal has acces to a scanner that can track opponents, like Meanstreak.

OKay, this is a better clarification. However, he's on an equal to lesser power level as Richard Rider Nova, and we've seen time and again how he can be hurt by basic laser blasts when connected and conventional blows. Apparently all this shows is that whatever blaster Rider had, it was pretty low powered. Not at all like the things the Hellicarrier would use.

Now, let's not confuse the voters with bait and switch tactics. Nova Omega is not facing a Dire Wraith Queen. He's facing a speedster who can access computers with ease. This is apples and oranges, especially since Nova Omega is probably just as fast as Meanstreak, and has expertice of many kinds of starships and the such.

I actually don't picture Nova Omega as being just as fast as Meanstreak in closed quarters. I've never seen a Nova in closed quarters zip around as Meanstreak can, covering every aspect of a room in seconds. And while he may have had experiences on starships... this is the Hellicarrier and he's never dealt with it. Just because I've been in hundreds of houses in my life doesn't mean I can go into just any house and know my way around with ease.

Also, while it's pointed out that Nova Omega was captured by Volx, it isn't pointed out on the second battle, Nova Omega went hand to hand and was the person who defeated him in combat.

Actually, Nova Omega just weakened Volx's armor and died in the process. It was Night Thrasher who actually defeated Volx with a knife through the head. Not as impressive a feat when mentioned with all those extra details.

There is a problem in this statement. I'll use today's standards as my measuring tool. If you have a kid today, who is very computer savy and aware of all the latest things go back 20 or 30 years, how do you think he'd do with old technology? He'd be confused! Before Windows, we were dealing with DOS! I know I wouldn't know how to use DOS anymore.

Maybe a typical kid, yes (me included) but if I go to my computer genious friend, Brian, and ask him about some 1970's computers he could just whip it out like it was nothing (I've seen him do it). Someone at Meanstreak's level won't have a problem at all.

I agree. Meanstreak does not have brute force, anyway. But, Nova Omega does. As with that ship that he saved from destruction, Nova Omega will know the best way to take out his opponent is to simply destroy the ship and bring it down, much like many less powerful opponents have done in the past. (Face it, SHIELD helicarriers get taken out almost on a yearly basis.)

Actually, you're wrong. Meanstreak does have a lot of brute force. Ever been hit by a car going 100 miles per hour? Of course not, you'd be dead. You know why? Because that's a lot of brute force slamming into you. Same goes for fists going at those speeds or faster... against the head.... yeah, even a Nova Centurian will be rendered unconscious.

First, let's remember the Meanstreak has a limit to his first power, as it says,

"He can only run for small periods of time."

Which has no bearings on this match. He isn't running much at all. He runs his fingers on a keyboard for a few seconds at high speeds then done. Then in the end he's running but it'll only take maybe a few minutes to do the necessary damage. He's been shown going more than that in the X-Men 2099 comic. I think it's saying he can't run for hours. A quick run, hit, stop, turn, and continue running is completely within his perimeters. Even the running in the beginning to find a computer wouldn't take him long. Computers are everywhere and he's been shown running through a 30 or 40 story building in Las Vegas looking for Desdemona Synge and finding her without stopping or becoming winded.

Second, I'm trying to find out how much of a "nerd" Meanstreak really is. What computer expertise does he really have? Let's look at some quotes:

"First, Jack, with the technological help of Henri, transferred most of their fortune into his own bank account and then ousted the siblings in order to gain control of the casino."

"Meanstreak helped him construct this machine and they actually started it but, now President, Doom arrived and shut it down because of its unstability. Jack had meant to allow the device to warp the whole planet into a state of chaos, but President Doom surrounded the city with EMP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse) devices which quarantined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarantine) the city."

Now, after reading that, and what other stuff I could find on the internet, I gained a better understanding of Meanstreak. First, while Meanstreak constructed a machine, Doom easily shut it down. (It shows Meanstreak's abilities at creating stuff, which is easily taken over by someone superior to him.) Second, I see no mention about Meanstreak being able to hack into a system and taking over the security measures. He could bust people out of jail, and hack into a casino's systems...but, there is no indication that he can deal with anything advanced, like SHIELD security made by Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Forge. (And, let me say, it's CLEAR Meanstreak is no Tony Stark, Reed Richards, or Forge.) Also, Meanstreak seemed to get captured on at least three occassions.

His getting captured has nothing to do with the match. Everyone and their brother's been captured time and again. Nova Prime was defeated by Volx in their first encounter, only escaped with the New Warriors help, then killed in their second encounter with Volx (and his attack couldn't even take Volx out). And he did very little inbetween the two fights, what 1 or 2 missions? And he even needed to team with the New Warriors to do well at those. Let's be honest... Nova Omega didn't have the most amazing track record either.

Now, beyond that let's deal with Meanstreak's hacking abilities. To try to render those useless or less effective is a good strategy, but don't hold up. Keep in mind still, this tech is 100 years old to him. It's old stuff. He'll know how to over come it with ease. But if you want an example of him overcoming a big wig's designs and such, he did so in... I believe X-Men 2099 4 or so. Jordan Boone was a brilliant scientist that worked for Alcamax. He was a big character for early Spidey 2099 comics and then became an X-Men 2099 character named Halloween Jack. He hacked his stuff in seconds, no problem. Then, in X-Men 2099 25 (I think it was) he was going against the Theatre of Pain. This wasn't just a movie theater... this was a huge almost satanic organization... hugely hightech, and within seconds he was able to get into their systems.

As the bio says... he's a genious at this stuff. Is he Stark level? Don't know, there's nothing to compare in the future so who's to say. He's definately one of the higher ups for his time though. Just remember, the technlogy from his time is way more advanced than the stuff Reed, Tony, and Forge created. Or if I want to give the benefit of the doubt, at least on par. And it's not just because it's 100 years in the future... just look at the 2099 universe. Everything is hugely technologically advanced. Flying cars, holograms with their own personalities, internet that you can physically enter yourself and even live in, etc. The Hellicarrier is stone age to Meanstreak and the idea that he can't handle it really is a joke (no tone to this statement, I know it reads bad, but it's not meant to be so).

I'm not going to quote all the stuff that is supposed that Meanstreak would do with the Helicarrier's security; because, I'll just ask one simple question. Please show an occassion where Meanstreak has shown the ability to do what is said with the Helicarrier's security systems. Meanstreak is an "accomplished media pirate and hacker" and able to "manipulate computers and most security systems." But, there is NO INDICATION that he's on the level to take on a security system built by Tony Stark. It's NEVER been shown in the comics that I can see.

It's not brain science to figure this out. Any given person who knows how to work the computers can activate certain security measures. Someone who can move as quickly as Meanstreak's fingers and mind does should have no problem accessing them once he's in the system. There's no manipulation involved, just point and click. He's not just some joe schmo playing at a keyboard remember (though you're trying to prove otherwise, which I think I've shown otherwise). And as for the NO INDICATION portion... Jordan Boone seems to be up there and he overcame his stuff easily. Then later when they were working together (Boone became Halloween Jack) Meanstreak overcame the casino's security systems, which for their time, I'd say is right about the same as the Hellicarrier, and that... once again, took seconds. It wasn't some small casino... it was the powerhouse foundation for Las Vegas 2099... WAY more advanced than today's systems. Really, Meanstreak has shown EVERY INDICATION that he can hack an ancient computer security system like the Hellicarrier's. I'm surprised it's even an issue really. But I understand the debate. It's beneficial and the core of my whole argument, and without it I don't have as much to go on. However, this is all completely within his abilities and I've shown several examples of him being able to do this.

It's clear that Meanstreak's powers are being WAAAY over-inflated. If I'm shown otherwise, where he gets control of a security system, especially one that's so advanced as Tony Starks, I'd go into debating all the points below that previous quote; but, I don't see it.

And I see that you say such things as "It's clear" to sway voters into thinking it's actually clear.... when that's not at all the case. I've played Meanstreak exactly how he was played in the comics. And you keep saying "So advanced as Tony Starks" but Tony's stuff was awsome for 2000... not for 2099. It'd be just on par or lesser than that stuff. The 2099 universe has MAJORLY leaped in technological advances as shown throughout the entire line in every issue. Honestly, look at the stuff and you'll see how elementary the legendary Iron Man's stuff really is to Meanstreak. Heck, Alcamax is an example of one of the technlogical giants of the 2099 universe and Meanstreak hacked that just fine. I want to say that took place during the Fall of the Hammer crossover with all the False Gods, or it could have been in an issue of Ravage 2099 that they guest stared in prior to the crossover. I don't remember specifically.

NOW, I do have one more bit of information I learned about Nova Omega's powers, from the Official Handbook:

"Nova Omega is a teleporter."

That means, Nova Omega can remove himself from a bad situation, going inside or outside the helicarrier, if need be. Also, with a scanner, he can track Meanstreak quite easily, especially since he's the only other person on board. (And, Nova Omega has the speed to do that very quickly, as I've shown.)

When was this actually shown? I've read most of his appearances and he never once teleports. I know he's sent at one point from whever it was he's from in space, but I don't think that was him but rather technological means from the place. I actually question this. Can you show an example?

Finally, I want to point out that Meanstreak is not very durable, and is easily removed from battle.

"When the Graverobber and his Undead attacked, Meanstreak fought them with the rest of the X-Men, but the muscles of his legs were cut by a charged card thrown by the Undead member, Arcadian, keeping him out of the rest of the fight."

You take out his legs, you take away his main power. Also, as I pointed out, on at least three occassions, I've read about Meanstreak being captured. And, most every battle Meanstreak has engaged in has been with other members of the X-Men 2099.

And lets not forget that nearly every battle Nova Omega engaged in he was alongside the New Warriors, and the few issues I saw he did next to nothing until getting in a blow or two.

And yes, Meanstreak is as durable as most people would be, nothing unexpected there, but Nova would have to land the hit. I've NEVER even seen Nova Omega maneuver like Meanstreak can. He can move quickly in a single crowded room to cover it entirely within seconds without bumping anything. An example of this was when he was searching Jordan Boone's room in X-Men 2099 4, and another example was when he was searching for Desdemona Synge around X-Men 2099 issue 21 or so. He searched a whole casino and we all know how crowded a casino is. This shows me that he can outrun and out maneuver Nova Omega inside the Hellicarrier, including landing 100 MPH or more punches, breaking arms, legs, whatever. Yes, Nova Omega is nearly as fast as Meanstreak, but as far as the appearances I've read, and even appearances of Richard Rider Nova... that's only out in the open skies or space. Never once did I see Nova Omega even come close to those speeds inside.

Honestly, even if it does come to hand to hand battle... I still see Nova Omega getting decimated. Meanstreak can dodge blasts, hit, run, stop out of the room and start again.

The only captures I can think of with Meanstreak was in issue 2 when he was surprised by the Dealer of the Rat Pack, 1 of 4 powered security guards, and in issue 4 when he was surprised by La Lunatica. Both had powers that took a person out with 1 touch... something Nova Omega doesn't have. And let's remember, both were done by surprise, and early in his career. He's matured a lot more since then and got a lot more experience between issue 4 and issue 36 (or whatever issue the series ended with.. somewhere around there).


So in closing here, I think I've shown enough examples of Meanstreak's technological gifts. And I think I've shown how even in a physical fight Meanstreak can still hold his own. Combine the two and I don't think Nova Omega can stand a chance.

Winner - Meanstreak

[JewishHobbit]

Rebuttal: T-Bird vs. Iron Man

There are some glaring inaccuracies in this argument that need to be disputed, especially after I went to the source, the (few) appearances that T-Bird made in the Exiles comics. Read on.

[B]

BIG inaccuracy! T-Bird NEVER met Iron Man in his (very few) adventures with the Exiles. He only appeared in issues 1-10, before his fateful adventure with Galactus. I don't recall Iron Man even being in Age Of Apocalypse...SO, it's fair to say that T-Bird has NO IDEA who Iron Man is.

I'm going by memory on Exiles because I don't have them anymore so I could be wrong. However, it has no impact on my debate. Not only that, but I'd say it only hurts you more. Instead of tearing the armor off of Iron Man, he'll just be less fineseful and will try to just destry the 'robot man' and break it to pieces, which will kill Iron Man.

Now, T-Bird isn't known for his stealth. He's known for his hand to hand combat, up close and personal. Iron Man...HE'S about stealth! But, T-Bird faced one type of opponent in his adventures...the big guys, like Strong Guy, Hulk, and Juggernaut (without his costume).

I never state anything about Thunderbird being stealthy. I'm saying Iron Man will be stealthy. So thanks for agreeing with me.

Only one time in Exiles did he lose it, and that was in his fight with Hulk. (And, this was only in his second battle with Hulk.) It is not in his nature to lose control, unless pushed to the extreme.

I'd say getting blasted to death on the hellicarrier is enough to freak him out. If memory serves, he didn't really encounter any major problems to make him freak out, only Hulk. Even with the Skrull prisons he was winning things and had no real problems. So if you're saying that the Hellecarrier doesn't make him "Hulk Out" then you're saying it doesn't give him any trouble... which doesn't really help you out any. It's basically saying Iron Man in the Hellicarrier does nothing to enhance Iron Man's battle... however, I think we all know that's crap. Iron Man would utilize the Hellicarrier, and it's got some powerful defenses, and once Thunderbird is in danger, he'll freak and become just as he was against the Hulk, taking out the Hellicarrier and Iron Man in one final frenzy. Though, if I'm not mistaken, he kept that side under control and could bring it out at will. He just never wanted to do it because he didn't want to lose control. He brought it out against the Hulk when it was needed, and the same goes for Galactus.


[qute]Again, there are some inaccuracies in this statement. First, it is said, "he can take physical blows by Savage Hulk and not be put down." WRONG! In the first part of the story, issue #5, T-Bird gets taken down by the Hulk TWICE! Once, when T-Bird and the rest of the Exiles are taken by surprise...and, second, when he first fights the Hulk. It isn't until he goes savage, which is only seen this one time in the Exiles comics, that he defeats him...AFTER a bunch of other characters have turned Hulk quite savage.[/quote]

Okay... he can be put down by physical blows by the Hulk... but who can't be? Iron Man sure has. However, it still shows that when taken to the extreme he can power up when chosing. If he's on the verge of being taken down by the helicarrier, he can go on the frenzy. He won't like it, but when pushed too far, he'll do it just fine. And lets be honest, look at Thunderbird. He's taken on Hulk. He's taken out Strong Guy and Juggernaut (without suit, but still juiced up obviously). He's a strong fight against Iron Man even without the Frenzy, but if he does Frenzy up, Iron Man doesn't stand a chance. It's not like Iron Man would bring along the Hulk Buster Armor for any reason. He wouldn't expect Thunderbird to be that powerful based on his picture and previous knowledge of him.

Just to point this out again, it's the bomb that takes out Galactus, not T-Bird's punch.

I never said he did. I just said he punched a hole in Galactus' back. That's all we need to know for this match. He can punch a hole through Galactus' hide, he can destroy Iron Man's armor.

Here is the problem with the argument. Iron Man does not have to come into physical contact with Thunderbird. He will have sensors and full access to the Helicarrier, even when outside of it. T-Bird cannot fly, thus he cannot get to Iron Man, also. Iron Man knows he's going against a mutant, that will be for certain. Also, as I've mentioned, it's obvious this character is enhanced with strength.

The flying is a good touch, but I'm forgetting something huge that I'll post special after this post. It may help to handle the flying thing. But as far as is being obvious Thunderbird's enhanced in strength... not really. Thunderbird was a brute to begin with. He's just a little deformed now.

The Helicarrier does have areas that are used to detain high powered individuals, and it would be easy to Iron Man to lead T-Bird in that direction. (And, Iron Man doesn't have to worry about working T-Bird into a frenzy...after all, there is proof in Exiles #8 or #9, where we see his powers taken away with a power dampener, where he is forced to battle Strong Guy.)

But how would Iron Man know NOT to work Thunderbird into a frenzy. How many times has Iron Man went against a basic powerhouse and took them on hand to hand (blast to hand, whatever). There's no reason to believe Thunderbird could suddenly go nuts and rip him to pieces based on a picture. I see Iron Man trying to take down Thunderbird himself, and that really is a problem for him.

I skipped quite a bit, because it infers that Iron Man is idiotic enough to just attack T-Bird at close range, and will only try to piss him off. Tony Stark is a genius, UNLIKE T-Bird, and will not go into a battle half-cocked.

I never said such a thing. No point in throwing words in my mouth to make my debate less than it is. Never once did I say Iron Man would go into battle half cocked. I actually said the opposite. Only when he realized the Helecarrier would help no more would he go into battle. He'd either wait for the right moment or strike first to get the first strike in. Nothing "half cocked" about that. I don't think it has to be close range. It's close quarters and Thunderbird can find ways to get a distant or flying character down. It happens every month on comics. And no, Thunderbird isn't a genious, but he's not dumb or anything. He's been doing this for years. He's a brute, but he's a pretty smart/average intelligence person. He's an exerienced X-Man and Horseman of Apocalypse. He's not Savage Hulk or Juggernaut by no stretch of the imagination. He knows how to battle.

T-Bird has ALWAYS only faced one type of opponent, and that is the heavy hitters. (The exception is Galactus....and, the only thing he did to him is punch a hole in his armor and plant a bomb. AND, with the page that is left out, that fits in between the two shown, it states, "Galactus's armor is more function than form.")

Those 2 images were all I could find on google or yahoo images. I didn't even know there was a middle page. Remember, I'm going by memory here. It still shows the force used. The only other time I remember anything breaking Galactus' armor was Beta Ray Bill's hammer, Stormbreaker... and that just cracked it (in the Stormbreaker mini). Thunderbird broke a huge hole into it. And being that Galactus made a big deal about someone doing that to him in that mini, I say it's a pretty good achievement. This STILL justifies my point though... he can break Galactus' armor... he can break Iron Man's.

Again, T-Bird has ONE thing going for him, he's very strong and durable. But, Iron Man outclasses him in all other areas.

Winner = Thunderbird (Exiles)

[POWdER-man]

hahaha JH says Iron Man wins...

[JewishHobbit]

THUNDERBIRD VS IRON MAN

EXTRA EXTRA....

Something I just remembered while typing the previous reply. Continuity for this tourney takes place at the end of Secret Invasion. Let's recall how ol' Iron Man was at the end of Secret Invasion. His stark tech was compromised, he was expelled of extremis, and could barely fight. Remember how the American people saw him leave the battle field? It was beause his makeshift armor wasn't enough to continue. As of the time of this fight, the time he'd be taken for this battle, he is half the Iron Man we've come to know.

And if I'm not mistaken, regarding Phaed's mention of controling the Helicarrier from outside... I'm pretty sure that was an Extremis power, which he no longer has, and even if it wasn't, his armor at the end of Secret Invasion sure couldn't handle that.

And with armor that bad... he'd HAVE to use the Helicarrier because he just wouldn't have the juice himself to take Thunderbird on on his own. And like I said, Thunderbird can take all that and if it frenzies him, there's an even better chance of Tony getting destroyed in combat.

So it's a 50% powered Iron Man (or less as SI made it seem) vs Thunderbird (Exiles). Honestly, at this point, I'm not even sure Thunderbird HAS to frenzy to fight Iron Man. He might be able to destroy him in his basic brute form. NOt saying he wont' frenzy though. If Iron Man uses the Helicarrier, chances are he still will. With this lackluster armor, Iron Man is now the underdog of the fight.

Winner - Thunderbird (Exiles)

[JewishHobbit]

hahaha JH says Iron Man wins...

Shuddup. I just forgot to delete the last line of Phaeds rebuttal.

[POWdER-man]

Aren't you glad I pointed it out. :heart:

[JewishHobbit]

I am, thanks :up:

[Phaedrus45]

THUNDERBIRD VS IRON MAN

EXTRA EXTRA....

Something I just remembered while typing the previous reply. Continuity for this tourney takes place at the end of Secret Invasion. Let's recall how ol' Iron Man was at the end of Secret Invasion. His stark tech was compromised, he was expelled of extremis, and could barely fight. Remember how the American people saw him leave the battle field? It was beause his makeshift armor wasn't enough to continue. As of the time of this fight, the time he'd be taken for this battle, he is half the Iron Man we've come to know.

And if I'm not mistaken, regarding Phaed's mention of controling the Helicarrier from outside... I'm pretty sure that was an Extremis power, which he no longer has, and even if it wasn't, his armor at the end of Secret Invasion sure couldn't handle that.

And with armor that bad... he'd HAVE to use the Helicarrier because he just wouldn't have the juice himself to take Thunderbird on on his own. And like I said, Thunderbird can take all that and if it frenzies him, there's an even better chance of Tony getting destroyed in combat.

So it's a 50% powered Iron Man (or less as SI made it seem) vs Thunderbird (Exiles). Honestly, at this point, I'm not even sure Thunderbird HAS to frenzy to fight Iron Man. He might be able to destroy him in his basic brute form. NOt saying he wont' frenzy though. If Iron Man uses the Helicarrier, chances are he still will. With this lackluster armor, Iron Man is now the underdog of the fight.

Winner - Thunderbird (Exiles)

Actually, I pointed out in my opening debate that Iron Man no longer has the Extremis Armor; BUT, Norman hasn't taken control of SHEILD yet. That happens with the beginning of Dark Reign. Iron Man still knows everything about SHEILD and has the means to control a SHEILD helicarrier. And, going on old information before Extremis, Tony still created the Helicarrier, and as such can get control of the helicarrier. (Not to mention with prep-time, he'll be well aware of what he needs in regards to his armor and the helicarrier. If there wasn't a 24-hour prep-time, this might be a bit different. But, Prep-Time clearly benefits Iron Man, especially in regards to location.

It almost seems as if you're saying the Tony is going to be plucked into this battle right at the very end of Secret Invasion. That's just not the case, and this would even disregard the 24-hour prep-time, where Tony has the time to have the correct armor (pre-Extremis), get ready to interact with a SHEILD helicarrier that he designed, and be ready for battle. (Remember, the events in Secret Invasion were suppose to be in a short period of time...of course he'd be worn out with everything he just went through.)

[Phaedrus45]

I'm going by memory on Exiles because I don't have them anymore so I could be wrong. However, it has no impact on my debate. Not only that, but I'd say it only hurts you more. Instead of tearing the armor off of Iron Man, he'll just be less fineseful and will try to just destry the 'robot man' and break it to pieces, which will kill Iron Man.

This still goes under the assumption that Tony lets T-Bird get anywhere near him. As I've pointed out, Tony can use the helicarrier to his ultimate advantage, by keeping track of his opponent, leading him through various means to various areas, or whatever.

I think the mistake is thinking Tony will use the weapons against T-Bird. Tony is very intelligent, and does not go into every battle fighting. Tony could even use a drug against T-Bird to simply incapacitate him, filling the entire SHEILD helicarrier...and, with his armor, wouldn't even be effected. (After all, there is no indication that a gas wouldn't effect T-Bird.)



I never state anything about Thunderbird being stealthy. I'm saying Iron Man will be stealthy. So thanks for agreeing with me.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Stealth totally works for Iron Man, and as such he will not be engaging T-Bird in hand to hand combat. It's just me pointing this out; and, what T-Bird can't get ahold of he can't hurt.



I'd say getting blasted to death on the hellicarrier is enough to freak him out. If memory serves, he didn't really encounter any major problems to make him freak out, only Hulk. Even with the Skrull prisons he was winning things and had no real problems. So if you're saying that the Hellecarrier doesn't make him "Hulk Out" then you're saying it doesn't give him any trouble... which doesn't really help you out any. It's basically saying Iron Man in the Hellicarrier does nothing to enhance Iron Man's battle... however, I think we all know that's crap. Iron Man would utilize the Hellicarrier, and it's got some powerful defenses, and once Thunderbird is in danger, he'll freak and become just as he was against the Hulk, taking out the Hellicarrier and Iron Man in one final frenzy. Though, if I'm not mistaken, he kept that side under control and could bring it out at will. He just never wanted to do it because he didn't want to lose control. He brought it out against the Hulk when it was needed, and the same goes for Galactus.

Well, he fought Hulk the first time and didn't freak out. He faced Strong Guy and didn't freak out. And, he faced Juggernaut (without his costume) and didn't freak out.

The problem is the assumption that Iron Man will use the blaster weapons against T-Bird. Never have I said this would be the case. Security is more than just firing weapons.


Okay... he can be put down by physical blows by the Hulk... but who can't be? Iron Man sure has. However, it still shows that when taken to the extreme he can power up when chosing. If he's on the verge of being taken down by the helicarrier, he can go on the frenzy. He won't like it, but when pushed too far, he'll do it just fine. And lets be honest, look at Thunderbird. He's taken on Hulk. He's taken out Strong Guy and Juggernaut (without suit, but still juiced up obviously). He's a strong fight against Iron Man even without the Frenzy, but if he does Frenzy up, Iron Man doesn't stand a chance. It's not like Iron Man would bring along the Hulk Buster Armor for any reason. He wouldn't expect Thunderbird to be that powerful based on his picture and previous knowledge of him.

Nope, I agree Iron Man would not bring Hulk-buster armor to this fight. It's why I never brought it up. But, I will point out that Iron Man has taken hits from people as strong as Hulk before, even in normal armor, and has been able to get away and reassess the stituation.



I never said he did. I just said he punched a hole in Galactus' back. That's all we need to know for this match. He can punch a hole through Galactus' hide, he can destroy Iron Man's armor.

Yes, he can punch a hole through Galactus' armor when he's worked up, fearing for the life of his lover and unborn child. (It's important to put it in context to his state of mind.) Also, as I quoted, "Galactus's armor is more function than form."


But how would Iron Man know NOT to work Thunderbird into a frenzy. How many times has Iron Man went against a basic powerhouse and took them on hand to hand (blast to hand, whatever). There's no reason to believe Thunderbird could suddenly go nuts and rip him to pieces based on a picture. I see Iron Man trying to take down Thunderbird himself, and that really is a problem for him.

After reading Iron Man comics for years and years, he's not the type of character to just needlessly engage an opponent in battle. If this was many other characters in this tournament, I might agree; but, Tony is extremely intelligent, like Reed Richards. Just like Reed, Tony just doesn't go head first into battle. (My reason for saying he wouldn't go in "half cocked.")



I never said such a thing. No point in throwing words in my mouth to make my debate less than it is. Never once did I say Iron Man would go into battle half cocked. I actually said the opposite. Only when he realized the Helecarrier would help no more would he go into battle. He'd either wait for the right moment or strike first to get the first strike in. Nothing "half cocked" about that. I don't think it has to be close range. It's close quarters and Thunderbird can find ways to get a distant or flying character down. It happens every month on comics. And no, Thunderbird isn't a genious, but he's not dumb or anything. He's been doing this for years. He's a brute, but he's a pretty smart/average intelligence person. He's an exerienced X-Man and Horseman of Apocalypse. He's not Savage Hulk or Juggernaut by no stretch of the imagination. He knows how to battle.

My apologized if I offended. All I'm saying is there is a misconception I'm feeling on your part that Tony will use the weapons defenses instantly on T-Bird, working him up to an extreme furvor, and that Tony would then engage T-Bird in battle.

The fault in this is 1) Tony doesn't need to use weapons as defense. 2) If he DID use weapons, it would clearly show on the sensors that T-Bird is growing in strength, and Tony would then a) stop maddening him further and b) know even more not to engage this brute in man to man contact.

This is what I mean by half cocked. I think it's foolish to simply go attacking your opponent with SHIELD weapons full-on. If I think that, Tony's genius would clearly know the same thing.

Those 2 images were all I could find on google or yahoo images. I didn't even know there was a middle page. Remember, I'm going by memory here. It still shows the force used. The only other time I remember anything breaking Galactus' armor was Beta Ray Bill's hammer, Stormbreaker... and that just cracked it (in the Stormbreaker mini). Thunderbird broke a huge hole into it. And being that Galactus made a big deal about someone doing that to him in that mini, I say it's a pretty good achievement. This STILL justifies my point though... he can break Galactus' armor... he can break Iron Man's.

As I pointed out in this rebuttal, you have to see how T-Bird works himself up to the point of taking on this deadly task. His love for the Exiles, of course...but, even more, his love of his lady love and his unborn child spurn his anger and desire to succeed. THIS is not a factor in this battle. T-Bird does not like to act on this agressive nature.

In the Exiles comics that T-Bird appeared in, they did tackle a number of characters. T-Bird had one specific purpose, and that was to take on the heavy hitters. Those characters with different powers were tackled by other members. If T-Bird was all powerful, it would stand to reason he could take on others, but he didn't.

Winner = Iron Man

[JewishHobbit]

Actually, I pointed out in my opening debate that Iron Man no longer has the Extremis Armor; BUT, Norman hasn't taken control of SHEILD yet. That happens with the beginning of Dark Reign. Iron Man still knows everything about SHEILD and has the means to control a SHEILD helicarrier. And, going on old information before Extremis, Tony still created the Helicarrier, and as such can get control of the helicarrier. (Not to mention with prep-time, he'll be well aware of what he needs in regards to his armor and the helicarrier. If there wasn't a 24-hour prep-time, this might be a bit different. But, Prep-Time clearly benefits Iron Man, especially in regards to location.

Oh I never said he couldn't control the Helicarrier, just that he couldn't do it mentally from outside... as I'm pretty sure that the technopathy abilites were Extremis. If I'm wrong, correct me, I just wanted to make sure that was known.

It almost seems as if you're saying the Tony is going to be plucked into this battle right at the very end of Secret Invasion. That's just not the case, and this would even disregard the 24-hour prep-time, where Tony has the time to have the correct armor (pre-Extremis), get ready to interact with a SHEILD helicarrier that he designed, and be ready for battle. (Remember, the events in Secret Invasion were suppose to be in a short period of time...of course he'd be worn out with everything he just went through.)

OKay... I'll give you this. I was tired and trying to hurry and didn't think about preptime when I was typing that bit out. So yes, I was thinking about the armor at the end of Secret Invasion. But I think the main thing I wanted to make sure people realized is that this is post Extremis, and I must have overlooked that part of your opening post. But none of the armor pre-Extremis is as powerful as Extremis save maybe the Hulkbuster armor, which he wouldn't think to bring into battle. So either way, this is still a lesser Iron Man than we've been used to for the past couple years. And if my understanding is correct, he'll actually have to be at the controls to make all this work. He can't do it from his armor itself.

[JewishHobbit]

I think the mistake is thinking Tony will use the weapons against T-Bird. Tony is very intelligent, and does not go into every battle fighting. Tony could even use a drug against T-Bird to simply incapacitate him, filling the entire SHEILD helicarrier...and, with his armor, wouldn't even be effected. (After all, there is no indication that a gas wouldn't effect T-Bird.)

I think most of us have read comics seeing blasters and LMD's in the Hellicarrier, but I've never read Gas being there. Can you show me an example of gas being used in the Hellicarrier, and I'll even go as far as covering the ENTIRE Shield Hellicarrier? I'm just wondering because I've read just about every Marvel Comic with Hellicarriers in it since at least 2004 (and siratically previous to that) and I don't recall ever seeing it.

Well, he fought Hulk the first time and didn't freak out. He faced Strong Guy and didn't freak out. And, he faced Juggernaut (without his costume) and didn't freak out.

Juggernaut (without his costume), Juggernaut (without his costume), but Jugernaut (without his costume) was still huge, which means Juggernaut (without his costume) had still been connected to the cytorrak gem even if he wasn't wearing his costume. So yay... Thunderbird can't take mental control of him now! Wait, that was never in Thunderbird's abilities... so I gues it doesn't matter that Juggernaut (without his costume) doesn't have his costume on. :)

And as I stated before and you seemed to ignore was that he didn't seem to have any problem facing people in the death arenas, including Juggernaut (without his costume) and Strong Guy. He took them out fairly easily and was winning the thing (I don't recall the winning thing but that's according to the bio). I remember him beating them with little effort though. So really, was there a reason for him to get all WAR HORSEMAN OF APOCALYPSE on them?

As for the first time he fought Hulk? I don't remember that battle and have no reference for it to look into. However, it still goes to say that he DID freak out on the Hulk, even if it was their second battle. He still found himself being beat to death and reacted. If the stress of being in this tournament and then the fear of being beaten to death by Tony and the Hellicarrier makes him feel that endangered, trust me, he'll react.

The problem is the assumption that Iron Man will use the blaster weapons against T-Bird. Never have I said this would be the case. Security is more than just firing weapons.

And I think this logic comes from someone who already knows everything about Thunderbird, not from Tony Stark who knows next to nothing about him. He'll see a big ugly man based on a big man (though not as big) who has fairly simple powers. What about that do you think would make Tony think "Man... I should do everything in my power NOT to engage this man in battle, whether through his armor or the Hellicarrier". Tony's smart but his strategy has to at least make logical sense for the given situation.

And since something like this came up in your opening argument and I'm seeing other things I don't agree with in your opening argument, I'll paste it here and debate that as well. Your argument was:

With his own armor, he can access T-Bird's powers, as his "holographic generator ... can both disguise the armor and project images to distract and confuse opponents."

Tony doesn't have Extremis and won't be able to just take care of it from his armor. he's no longer a Technopath. Plus, how can his armor access Thunderbird's powers? If you're refering to the tech under Thunderbird's skin, Iron Man would have no idea that it's there and he can't feel it out either (at least not without Extremis). I don't think this can happen in the slightest.

Tony will know who 616 versions of Thunderbird is; but, he'll clearly see from the picture that this version has been greatly enhanced. The muscles are a clear give-away that he'd have some great strength. (Plus, the Exiles, with T-Bird have visited Earth 616 on occassion; so, if SHIELD has any knowledge of this, Tony would too.)

The Exiles didn't come to 616 until AFTER Thunderbird's removal. And even so, they just met up with the X-Men. Shield or the Avengers have never been involved and the X-Men don't typically share info with the government. And not only that, but why would Tony see a picture of Thunderbird and think "Hmm, he must have been a part of that Exiles group that randomly showed up for an hour or two a couple years back... it's only obvious". Again, it's the thought of a person who knows everything about Thunderbird, not Tony in his given situation.

ANd I think you saying that Tony can tell from the picture that THunderbird's strenght has been GREATLY increases, but I don't think that's the case. Again, I'm thinking you're assuming Tony will assume this based on what YOU know about Thunderbird, not what he knows. Honestly, if I saw a picture of Thunderbird, I'd think he was stronger, but not so much to be a huge threat. I wouldn't even guess him at Colossus or Thing level, and they're the lower tier powerhouses. Honestly, I'd think of him as more like Man Mountain Marko.

So, Tony will know not to engage T-Bird in close quarter contact, and to gain information on his opponent any way possible before engaging him in battle.

Tony won't be brash or anything and just fly into a physical battle, but there's no reason to think he'd never attack Thunderbird physically. He'd use the Hellicarrier to study him, yes, but how will he do that? He'll use it to attack him physically and study him, but even so he still won't come accross as "Holy crap I can't confront him physically!" until he freaks out, and by that time it's to late.

Tony has a flight advantage, and can easily find his way to the outside of the Helicarrier, too. With flight, T-bird cannot come into contact with Tony; yet, Tony can still have total access to the Helicarrier. He can easily lead T-Bird outside, or engage him in battle from within.

Not without Extremis he can't do all this. He can fly and leave the Hellicarrier, but he has no control over it then. And him just flying around outside isn't going to win him any matches. He still has to get inside and either use the Hellicarrier against Thunderbird or attack him on his own. Either way could potentially bring out WAR (and let's not forget, he's still a huge threat even without becoming War).

Now, T-bird is very durable; so, it might be in Tony's best interest to lead T-bird to be captured and contained. This has been done with some of the baddest of the bad, and the Helicarrier would have areas for dampening powers of super-powered individuals. They've held them there before, and it's listed in features that the Helicarrier has detainment cells.

Yes, Tony has detainable cells, but Thunderbird should have no problem breaking out of them. The only chance would be if his powers were dampened, but Tony would have to know exactly what to dampen. If he's just using the Thunderbird template he'd have files on (616) then he's not getting the most powerful parts of Thunderbird... the Apocalypse alterations, and he wouldn't know the source of those at all. Heck, he wouldn't even know Apocalypse was involved to even TRY to figure it out. And if he gets detained after fighting off the Hellicarrier and Iron Man and feels only part of his powers diminishing, he could very easily freak out then as well and then that prison, I'm sure not as durable as Galactus' hide, won't do much.


Okay, that takes care of the opening argument, now to continue on.

Nope, I agree Iron Man would not bring Hulk-buster armor to this fight. It's why I never brought it up. But, I will point out that Iron Man has taken hits from people as strong as Hulk before, even in normal armor, and has been able to get away and reassess the stituation.

Yeah, but I don't think he can get away if his armor's already been broken and ripped to shreds. When Thunderbird becomes enraged, he won't play nice. He will decimate Iron Man, and his armor won't do very well (as at that point he's well beyond the Hulk level hits, as shown in his battle with the Hulk).

Yes, he can punch a hole through Galactus' armor when he's worked up, fearing for the life of his lover and unborn child. (It's important to put it in context to his state of mind.) Also, as I quoted, "Galactus's armor is more function than form."

I've already explained the quote, no point in just throwing it back out there again. If it's not a big deal then why can only the EXTREMELY powerful can break it? Or even Crack it!? It's still showing how powerful Thunderbird is.

As for the wife and unborn child.... let's continue with that state of mind, shall we? He freaked out for Nocturne and his unborn child and 'gave his life' for them. After such a long time he's finally returned to Nocturne and learns about losing the child. Do you think for a moment that he won't freak out over the possibility of leaving Nocturne alone again? This only HELPS my argument. He's left her alone once and won't do so again, and if he has to freak out in order to get back and protect her then so be it. Because who knows, as far as he knows she's also been sucked into this situation (and she has) and he has to find a way to protect her like he did before. Thanks for supporting my theory :)


After reading Iron Man comics for years and years, he's not the type of character to just needlessly engage an opponent in battle. If this was many other characters in this tournament, I might agree; but, Tony is extremely intelligent, like Reed Richards. Just like Reed, Tony just doesn't go head first into battle. (My reason for saying he wouldn't go in "half cocked.")

I've already agreed with this. He'll study him through the Hellicarrier and test his abilities, which actually helps me out because it's the beginning of Thunderbird's freak out stage. But when the Hellicarrier won't do the trick, Tony's going to have to face him one on one, and then he'll be ripped to shreds.


The fault in this is 1) Tony doesn't need to use weapons as defense. 2) If he DID use weapons, it would clearly show on the sensors that T-Bird is growing in strength, and Tony would then a) stop maddening him further and b) know even more not to engage this brute in man to man contact.

But Thunderbird was never shown to gradually enhance in strength. Hulk was beating him down and then suddenly "RRROOOAAAAARRRRRR!". His sensors have nothing to pick up, which negates the rest of this statement.

This is what I mean by half cocked. I think it's foolish to simply go attacking your opponent with SHIELD weapons full-on. If I think that, Tony's genius would clearly know the same thing.

Then how would he study Thunderbird to see what he's made of (as we both have said he will)? Just watch him walk around aimlessly until he sniffs Tony out? Sit him down and give him an IQ test?

As I pointed out in this rebuttal, you have to see how T-Bird works himself up to the point of taking on this deadly task. His love for the Exiles, of course...but, even more, his love of his lady love and his unborn child spurn his anger and desire to succeed. THIS is not a factor in this battle. T-Bird does not like to act on this agressive nature.

I've tackled the love of Nocturne a few points up. It's still a factor, perhaps even greater now. So the need to win this to not leave her alone again (with the possibility of her being caught up in this as well) should be enough to activate War.

In the Exiles comics that T-Bird appeared in, they did tackle a number of characters. T-Bird had one specific purpose, and that was to take on the heavy hitters. Those characters with different powers were tackled by other members. If T-Bird was all powerful, it would stand to reason he could take on others, but he didn't.


He didn't because the plot didn't call for it, but there was nothing that states he CAN'T take on people who weren't brutes. And let's remember, he only lasted, what, 12 issues before leaving the series? There wasn't a whole lot of time to delve into what he can and can't take on. Honestly, I think assuming he CAN'T take on non-brutes because the other Exiles typically took them on is rather niave and our voters are smarter than that.



Okay, and that takes care of that debate.

And Phaed, thinking back I think some of this comes accross snippy, I don't mean it to be. My wife is nagging me to hurry up so we can go to an easter egg hunt and I'm more annoyed at her at the moment, so forgive me.

Also, we're starting to talk in circles in very LONG posts. It would probably be best to start leaving certain points up to voters and lessoning others or we'll lose readers. Just my thought anyhow. With two debates between us in this thread we need to think of them (because you know how we get, we'll be doing this for pages and pages and never really prove one thing) :)

[Phaedrus45]

Yes, More Rebuttal about Iron Man vs. T-Bird:

Before I rebutt some stuff, JH got me thinking. We are using the most recent appearance by Iron Man...but, I hadn't looked at the most recent appearance by T-Bird. Ya gotta love Claremont!

The question is did T-Bird change a bit after coming out of the sleeping chamber. (Or, is it just Claremont's bad writing.) Sadly for T-Bird, it's now written history.

In issue #97, you see T-Bird cower before someone is about to shoot him with an energy pistol, saying something to the effect of, "Oh, no, this is going to hurt."

In the final issue, Sage delivers a kick to T-Bird's head, taking him out of action.

Clearly, this is not the T-Bird we saw in the first ten issues. But, it's the most recent, and would stand to reason that it's the one in this contest.

I think most of us have read comics seeing blasters and LMD's in the Hellicarrier, but I've never read Gas being there. Can you show me an example of gas being used in the Hellicarrier, and I'll even go as far as covering the ENTIRE Shield Hellicarrier? I'm just wondering because I've read just about every Marvel Comic with Hellicarriers in it since at least 2004 (and siratically previous to that) and I don't recall ever seeing it.

No, I'm not saying that the helicarrier would have a gas to subdue the entire ship; I'm saying in prep-time, Iron Man would have a gas available to him with his armor to take out a (clearly) strong individual.



Juggernaut (without his costume), Juggernaut (without his costume), but Jugernaut (without his costume) was still huge, which means Juggernaut (without his costume) had still been connected to the cytorrak gem even if he wasn't wearing his costume. So yay... Thunderbird can't take mental control of him now! Wait, that was never in Thunderbird's abilities... so I gues it doesn't matter that Juggernaut (without his costume) doesn't have his costume on. :)

Haha. It's important to point out without a costume, because it presents a completely different picture of the battle. (He wasn't even called Juggernaut in the issue, but Marko...or whatever his name is.)

And as I stated before and you seemed to ignore was that he didn't seem to have any problem facing people in the death arenas, including Juggernaut (without his costume) and Strong Guy. He took them out fairly easily and was winning the thing (I don't recall the winning thing but that's according to the bio). I remember him beating them with little effort though. So really, was there a reason for him to get all WAR HORSEMAN OF APOCALYPSE on them?

Now, the problem is that the version in this match is the most recent...and, he's been taken out by Sage...and, he cowered in fear at being blasted by a energy gun. (Oh, he was saved at the last second by another teammate.)

As for the first time he fought Hulk? I don't remember that battle and have no reference for it to look into. However, it still goes to say that he DID freak out on the Hulk, even if it was their second battle. He still found himself being beat to death and reacted. If the stress of being in this tournament and then the fear of being beaten to death by Tony and the Hellicarrier makes him feel that endangered, trust me, he'll react.

That's an incorrect assumption, because he was already in a tournament, and didn't "Hulk out." If he didn't do it in that tournament, there is no indication he'll do it in this one. (Plus, I'll point out he seems changed since coming out of the chamber.)



And since something like this came up in your opening argument and I'm seeing other things I don't agree with in your opening argument, I'll paste it here and debate that as well. Your argument was:



Tony doesn't have Extremis and won't be able to just take care of it from his armor. he's no longer a Technopath. Plus, how can his armor access Thunderbird's powers? If you're refering to the tech under Thunderbird's skin, Iron Man would have no idea that it's there and he can't feel it out either (at least not without Extremis). I don't think this can happen in the slightest.

No, I'm not saying he'll scan T-Bird's powers with his armor. He can see what's happening when T-Bird is confronted with a hologram...or if he attempts to capture him...or whatever on the Helicarrier's monitors. In that way, he can assess T-Bird's powers without actually engaging him in battle.



The Exiles didn't come to 616 until AFTER Thunderbird's removal. And even so, they just met up with the X-Men. Shield or the Avengers have never been involved and the X-Men don't typically share info with the government. And not only that, but why would Tony see a picture of Thunderbird and think "Hmm, he must have been a part of that Exiles group that randomly showed up for an hour or two a couple years back... it's only obvious". Again, it's the thought of a person who knows everything about Thunderbird, not Tony in his given situation.

Yeah, this I agree with. It wasn't until I started to look at the Exile comics that I realized he wasn't in them for very long. I sure thought he was in them longer than just the first 10 issues....and, the last few, that shows he's really changed.

ANd I think you saying that Tony can tell from the picture that THunderbird's strenght has been GREATLY increases, but I don't think that's the case. Again, I'm thinking you're assuming Tony will assume this based on what YOU know about Thunderbird, not what he knows. Honestly, if I saw a picture of Thunderbird, I'd think he was stronger, but not so much to be a huge threat. I wouldn't even guess him at Colossus or Thing level, and they're the lower tier powerhouses. Honestly, I'd think of him as more like Man Mountain Marko.

Tony will know who Thunderbird is. SHIELD will have a file on him, and from the pictures, it's clear that this version is GREATLY enhanced. (That picture is beyond steroids!) I agree he won't know his power extent from those first ten issues...but, the last few...he might sure have a clue about.



And Phaed, thinking back I think some of this comes accross snippy, I don't mean it to be. My wife is nagging me to hurry up so we can go to an easter egg hunt and I'm more annoyed at her at the moment, so forgive me.

Also, we're starting to talk in circles in very LONG posts. It would probably be best to start leaving certain points up to voters and lessoning others or we'll lose readers. Just my thought anyhow. With two debates between us in this thread we need to think of them (because you know how we get, we'll be doing this for pages and pages and never really prove one thing) :)

No, it's not that snippy. You're fighting for your character, and nothing has been personal; so, I'm cool.

I didn't bother to debate all the points, because I think the new information about your character sheds a whole new light on who I'm actually fighting. (Kind of like if I went with Iron Man with Extremis Armor.) It's clear that Claremont changed T-Bird after he came out of the chamber, because I cannot see any way that Sage would have taken him out in those first ten issues....and, I cannot see him shrinking before an energy blast. But, this is the latest version, and the version I get to use.

I think it's even clearer that the

Winner = Iron Man

[Phaedrus45]

BTW, I will probably rebutt our other match tomorrow. I did see some things that I could rebutt right away; but, I want to read the Nova issues and look at the X-Men 2099 issues.

Also, just so you know, Nova Omega faced Volx three times. He did capture her once, before the fateful encounter at the end. In New Warriors #60, Volx takes out all the New Warriors, but the restraints on Nova Omega got weaker with the battle, and he broke away from them, saving the New Warriors, and throwing Volx into an energy device.

It wasn't until New Warriors #69 that we see Nova Omega again.

(This shows the power of a Dire Wraith Queen, I'm thinking, if she took out the entire New Warriors.)

I'll look at these issues, though, and get a true assessment of his powers.

[JewishHobbit]

Thunderbird (Exiles) Vs Iron Man

This will probably be the last rebute I do today, and maybe even tomorrow. I don't want to get our debate going for too long and I'm busy all day tomorrow due to Easter. Maybe I'll get something up tomorrow night.


Before I rebutt some stuff, JH got me thinking. We are using the most recent appearance by Iron Man...but, I hadn't looked at the most recent appearance by T-Bird. Ya gotta love Claremont!

The question is did T-Bird change a bit after coming out of the sleeping chamber. (Or, is it just Claremont's bad writing.) Sadly for T-Bird, it's now written history.

In issue #97, you see T-Bird cower before someone is about to shoot him with an energy pistol, saying something to the effect of, "Oh, no, this is going to hurt."

In the final issue, Sage delivers a kick to T-Bird's head, taking him out of action.

Clearly, this is not the T-Bird we saw in the first ten issues. But, it's the most recent, and would stand to reason that it's the one in this contest.

Honestly, I've never even looked at Cleremont's stuff past the first 2 or 3 issues, and so I'll tackle this from 2 directions. The 1st is most obvious.

1) Modern day Cleremont sucks! Cleremont is somehow related to Bendis as evident by his suctitude. Actually, I find I enjoy Bendis better.

That said, it's well known that Cleremont has lost his edge and almost everything he writes pales in comparison to anything else. This is obviously an example of crappy writing that, though in continuity, is just unbelievable. He's notorious for having favorate female characters and then having them acheive things that really shouldn't be acheived and Sage is by far one of those characters (along with Kitty, Rogue, and Storm). This was just a way to make one of his beloved characters come accross more awsome than they really are, by smacking down a big character from a previous writer. It's a retarted tactic that happens all the time and honestly, it's very unbelievable.

However, as for the situations theselves, I can't say as I've never read them. It really is just bad writing. Would you believe that Squirrel Girl beat Thanos? It's in continuity. It's been referenced in books still in continuity. Doesn't mean it's something we should consider, just really crappy writing.

However, if I must come up with a way to overcome this issue:

2) Thunderbird seems to be a little less tough as before, but I highly doubt his actual might and fury has changed, jut his courage. However, he is in this fight in a situation that forces him to face never seeing Nocturne again and, as I said before, he won't know if she's involved in this as well and will want to save her. And if the bio I'm reading is right, he was reunited with Nocturne AFTER that bad writing. So for the sake and safety of the love of his life he will gather his courage and fight for her, and if it gets to a point where he is hurting and bleeding and looking at going down, he'll jump up to that next level for her... that same level that took out the Hulk and punched a whole in Galactus' armor. He'll sucumb to the beast inside to protect and find the woman he loves.

Now note: There's not much else that can be said by me on this issue because I've never read the issues and don't have them available to study, so anything else having to do with this issue later in this post I'm just going to skip and I ask the voters to think of what I've written above and apply it... for your own easy reading sake.

No, I'm not saying that the helicarrier would have a gas to subdue the entire ship; I'm saying in prep-time, Iron Man would have a gas available to him with his armor to take out a (clearly) strong individual.

Actually you did say that, but I can (clearly) see when a turnabout is made :)

And while he could potentially whip up a gas to bring with him on his armor, he'd also have to figure out the dosage to use that'll be strong enough to work and not put him to sleep perminantly. As we know, Iron Man won't randomly murder someone, not even in a battle like this one. Not knowing Thunderbird's alterations he won't know that balance and he'll have to get in close to use it, which then puts him in harm's way. The Gas is a good tactic but there's a lot of factors to consider and it may not as easily done as expected. Plus, he won't know that Apocalypse was involved so he won't know how to prepare the gas effectively to balance whatever Apocalypse added to him.

Haha. It's important to point out without a costume, because it presents a completely different picture of the battle. (He wasn't even called Juggernaut in the issue, but Marko...or whatever his name is.)

Or whatever his name is?! And you call yourself a comic book fan. Fact remains though, he had the added mass of the Cytorrak, so was still the brute we'd expect (or at least similar to it) which shows that Thunderbird can take the hits and put someone that powerful down.

That's an incorrect assumption, because he was already in a tournament, and didn't "Hulk out." If he didn't do it in that tournament, there is no indication he'll do it in this one.

He didn't Hulk out beause he didn't even want to fight. The notion wasn't there. Plus, at that point, as per my reasons above why he would be willing to Hulk out now, is that he'd never been separated from Nocturne. You have to imagine that there may have been a fear of her and his friends being hurt if he had tried to Hulk out, not to mention he was facing a whole world then. Hulking out wouldn't have helped, however as soon as it beame necessary, when Galactus came, he Hulked out and saved the day. He doesn't have these hesitations here because he's facing one man in a Hellicarrier, though one that will cause him great pain and frustration. It actually makes sense for him to Hulk out now rather than then.


No, I'm not saying he'll scan T-Bird's powers with his armor. He can see what's happening when T-Bird is confronted with a hologram...or if he attempts to capture him...or whatever on the Helicarrier's monitors. In that way, he can assess T-Bird's powers without actually engaging him in battle.

So again I'll mock... "Hmm, so what I read from this Thunderbird guy is that when he sees my lifelike holograms.... he punches through them. Well, I can't tell how strong he is, but I can tell that he'll punch things when in danger. He's a puncher. Brilliant!"

And as for the capture and such, he wont' allow himself to be captured and let Nocturne down again. If he is captured, chances are he'll freak out about leaving her alone in this demented game and will break Hulk out and break loose. Physical violence may not even be needed, though I'm willing to leave that decision up to the voters.

Yeah, this I agree with. It wasn't until I started to look at the Exile comics that I realized he wasn't in them for very long. I sure thought he was in them longer than just the first 10 issues....and, the last few, that shows he's really changed.

You mean the unreliable ones with the bad writing that takes him completely out of continuity of his former self? Next thing we'll see is Sage taking down Galactus.

Tony will know who Thunderbird is. SHIELD will have a file on him, and from the pictures, it's clear that this version is GREATLY enhanced. (That picture is beyond steroids!) I agree he won't know his power extent from those first ten issues...but, the last few...he might sure have a clue about.

You mean the unreliable ones with the bad writing that takes him completely out of continuity of his former self?Next thing we'll see is Sage taking down Galactus.

It's clear that Claremont changed T-Bird after he came out of the chamber, because I cannot see any way that Sage would have taken him out in those first ten issues....and, I cannot see him shrinking before an energy blast.

I agree with this whole heartedly. It's awful writing just to make one of Cleremont's favorate characters come accross so much better. However, even for those of you who either don't agree with this or believe that anything printed goes, I believe I came up with a good reasoning of why he'd get past this crappiness for the sake of the tournament (in the first paragraph above). Here's hoping you all agree with me.

Winner - Thunderbird (Exiles)

I understand debating Cleremon't sucktitude, but I think we're just quoting the same problems over and over again. Ready to wrap up the debate and leave it to the voters yet, Phaed?

[Phaedrus45]

Honestly, I've never even looked at Cleremont's stuff past the first 2 or 3 issues, and so I'll tackle this from 2 directions. The 1st is most obvious.

1) Modern day Cleremont sucks! Cleremont is somehow related to Bendis as evident by his suctitude. Actually, I find I enjoy Bendis better.

That said, it's well known that Cleremont has lost his edge and almost everything he writes pales in comparison to anything else. This is obviously an example of crappy writing that, though in continuity, is just unbelievable. He's notorious for having favorate female characters and then having them acheive things that really shouldn't be acheived and Sage is by far one of those characters (along with Kitty, Rogue, and Storm). This was just a way to make one of his beloved characters come accross more awsome than they really are, by smacking down a big character from a previous writer. It's a retarted tactic that happens all the time and honestly, it's very unbelievable.

However, as for the situations theselves, I can't say as I've never read them. It really is just bad writing. Would you believe that Squirrel Girl beat Thanos? It's in continuity. It's been referenced in books still in continuity. Doesn't mean it's something we should consider, just really crappy writing.

This is like with my character, Ahab. As I pointed out, it was clear that the writer of those comics meant Ahab to be Cable...but, another writer comes around later, not explaining the obvious, but changing his character. I'll just say that it was pointed out that we have to go with current writing, even though it might suck.

I admit it sucks. I just have to use what's available to me, and this just helped my case a bit too much, I think. Just like I'd LOVE to be able to use the Extremis Armor...it's made this season with Iron Man a lot tougher to battle with than Season 2.


Or whatever his name is?! And you call yourself a comic book fan. Fact remains though, he had the added mass of the Cytorrak, so was still the brute we'd expect (or at least similar to it) which shows that Thunderbird can take the hits and put someone that powerful down.

Haha. That's one thing I tend to suck at: names. Plus, I'm lazy many times, and don't want to look up someone's name.



He didn't Hulk out beause he didn't even want to fight. The notion wasn't there. Plus, at that point, as per my reasons above why he would be willing to Hulk out now, is that he'd never been separated from Nocturne. You have to imagine that there may have been a fear of her and his friends being hurt if he had tried to Hulk out, not to mention he was facing a whole world then. Hulking out wouldn't have helped, however as soon as it beame necessary, when Galactus came, he Hulked out and saved the day. He doesn't have these hesitations here because he's facing one man in a Hellicarrier, though one that will cause him great pain and frustration. It actually makes sense for him to Hulk out now rather than then.

I think most of our characters in this tournament won't want to fight; and, as T-Bird was forced to fight there, he's in the same situation here.




So again I'll mock... "Hmm, so what I read from this Thunderbird guy is that when he sees my lifelike holograms.... he punches through them. Well, I can't tell how strong he is, but I can tell that he'll punch things when in danger. He's a puncher. Brilliant!"

There are many ways to assess T-Bird. Hologram is one. Iron Man might use a security device that is intended to subdue someone, and he'll notice power levels. There are various ways this can happen. The point is if you get a chance to view someone before engaging them in battle, you have a better indication as to some extent of their powers. (T-Bird isn't allowed this luxury.)


You mean the unreliable ones with the bad writing that takes him completely out of continuity of his former self? Next thing we'll see is Sage taking down Galactus.

To me, it's just like Ahab. And, by your own words, you said we have to accept Ahab is not to be considered Cable....we have to accept the newest writing, no matter how much we might disagree with it.

Simply put, we don't know what kind of changes T-Bird's actions with Galactus and his rebirth has caused. All I can go with is what's been written by Claremont.

Winner = Iron Man

[Phaedrus45]

The History Of Nova Omega: Or...How strong is Nova Omega???

Just finished looking over all of Nova Omega's appearances, and here are the important points that I think need to be addressed.

Nova #17:

*As Richard is sitting in New Warriors Headquarter, Nova Omega blasts through the wall, standing over a shocked Richard Rider.

*Richard takes an old-school television (no flat screens back in the day), and whaps Nova Omega over the head with it. Nova Omega isn't fazed at all.

(This shows his powers and strength has no problem going through a wall or being hit with an object, like a tv.)

*Nova Omega and Richard Rider fight in New Warriors Headquarters, flying at fast speeds.

*Also, we see how fast Nova Omega can fly, speeding around the Earth...and, even getting from the Moon to Earth at the beginning of this story in a matter of minutes...or possibly even seconds. (It's just a flash of light!)

(This shows that Nova Omega CAN use his flight powers and speed within the Helicarrier....even in a location he doesn't know. Also, it shows the extent of his speeds.)

Nova #18:

*Let me just say, this Dire Wraith Queen is Bad-Ass! She's one nasty looking creature.

*In the case of this energy rifle...it's not your normal rifle. Volx, the Dire Wraith Queen grabs it after being fired upon by a member of the starship, and the ensuing blast flays ALL the skin off it's victim's bones and blasts a large hole in the side of the starship. (The blast even extends waaay past the ship, out into the air.) Said rifle is then attempted to be used on Volx, but Richard hits Nova Omega with the blast instead. The Dire Wraith Queen gets away, and Nova Omega doesn't get knocked out with the blast, but it causes enough of a disruption to allow her to escape. He then crushes the rifle in his hands, severely chastizing Richard.

*One important part is Nova Omega now not only has his Nova Force, but Richard's too. This is true until his death; so, it's important to note he's been augmented to this degree in this battle.

New Warriors #60:

*Upon the cancellation of Nova's series with that last issue, the story picks up in this issue of New Warriors. Indeed, somehow Nova Omega is captured by Volx....but, it's never shown or explained how he got captured.

*Volx is so powerful, she takes out the entire squadron of New Warriors, until Nova Omega breaks free from his cell, and blasts Volx into some kind of energy, seemingly eliminating her. During the struggle, Volx tries to use her Dire Wraith tongue to penetrate Nova Omega's skull, to no effect.

New Warriors #69:

Nova Omega is back, saving the New Warriors from Sphinx. He even takes a hit from Sphinx, but keeps going. He doesn't end up defeating Sphinx..(Nobody really does), but he saves the New Warriors from getting defeated.

New Warriors #75:

*The cancellation of New Warriors has Nova Omega having to return his powers to Richard Rider, and this is due to his death at the hands of an even more Bad-Ass Volx.

*Volx has been transformed TO THE MAX! She now has the Turbo armor, and knows how to use it. She's much larger, and is filled with some kind of crazy energy. The New Warriors are getting their butts KICKED, until Nova Omega saves them by absorbing Volx's energy, which he knows will only result in his death. (It's very much like T-Bolt in Exiles #10. Ulimate sacrifice and all that.)


Ok, now I have to find my X-Men 2099 box. Luckily, Nova and New Warriors were close together.

[Phaedrus45]

The History Of Meanstreak:

X-Men 2099 #1: These are all X-Men 2099 issues; so, I'll just list the issue number from here on out.

*Going very fast, Meanstreak opens up the cell doors of the Casino Holding Cells. Although, someone else has to take out the two guards on duty.

#2:

*Someone asks Meanstreak if he's ready, when we see him working on some type of computer. He says, "As ready as I can be with archaic hardware Eddie brought in his pack."

(This goes with my theory that it isn't so easy dealing with computer programs that are considered out of date. This is the only instance I saw in the 35+ comics I looked at where he had to deal with "archaic hardware.")

*Meanstreak's speed can't keep him away from one of the Ratpack, who has freezing powers. Meanstreak gets taken down quite easily. He gets captured.

(One thing you notice is that Meanstreak isn't that impressive in a fight. He's more about trying to rescue people.)

#4:

*The Ratpack did a number on their homebase. Meanstreak has the following quote: "Those Vegas goons really did a number on my system. Took me an hour just to get the basic ops back on-line."

(Took him an hour to get his own computer back online?? Sure, it's fast...but, I was under the impression he's faster than that.)

*Meanstreak attacks Lunatica, gets punched out, and is captured...again.

*Meanstreak has a neutralizing collar on to stop him from using his powers. Another character causes an big electrical disruption that allows it to stop functioning.

#5:

*Heimdall takes out Meanstreak with a clothesline. (Just like in wrestling.) He's knocked out.

(For a side-note, this is part of a crossover. I just read this one issue. Not sure what he did in the rest of it.)

#6:

*Finally, Meanstreak gets some action, and hits Dominic. (For the record, Dominic is a small, red creature, very much fashioned after the creature in Lord Of The Rings that's always saying, "My Precious." What's his name? Smiegel??) Anyway, Meanstreak's punch doesn't knock Dominic out...Dominic is a natural coward, and huddles in the corner, asking not to be struck again.

#8:

*Meanstreak dismantles some armor quickly and impressively. (He'll do this again in another issue. He's good at dismantling stuff.)

#9:

*He's knocked out again by some foe with a club. Yep, he's captured again. That's the third time in nine issues. Xi'an comes to save him and the other X-Men.

#16:

*Meanstreak is playing "Bowling With Bots." Basically, he runs at them very fast, breaking them into pieces. They aren't moving or anything. It's just like bowling.....with bots.

*He tries to capture Halloween Jack, but Jack is too fast for him.

#17:

*With assistance, Meanstreak takes down one of the Ratpack after grabbing a club from one of them and hitting another member with it. (Besides Dominic, it's the first time he's taken someone down, and this time it's at least someone of significance.)

*Turns out, they have to capture Desdemona in order to get into the casino resources. They use her hand print to gain access.

(I find this very significant. IF Meanstreak was so impressive with computers, you would think he could hack into the casino without Desdemona's handprint.)

#18:

*After gaining access with Desdemona's handprint, he now gets into the Casino Computer System, and starts transfering money and such.

#19:

*Jack has a mad plan, and he's created a machine for this purpose. Jack looks over his plans and such, and thinks there might be some unsafe things about it.

(The keys point here is I thought Meanstreak helped make the machines in my previous arguments. This isn't the case. Meanstreak never shows the ability to make things; that is Halloween Jack.)

*Meanstreak gets knocked out...again. This time, a real strong guy grabs Halloween Jack and uses him as the club to hit Meanstreak.

(Really, shouldn't Meanstreak's speed help him avoid getting knocked out so quickly? Meanstreak is wicked fast...but, that speed does not translate to reaction time.)

*Meanstreak is seen talking with a security guard, and asks him while holding a monitor, "This is a link to the security cameras?" He uses it to find one of the prisoners.

(Why is Meanstreak asking this question? He's a supposed expert with this kind of stuff, and I'd think he's know right away.)

#21:

*Uses a computer to look at some hardware.

#25:

*Possibly Meanstreak's best appearance. He unarms some stooges and knocks them out with a "Bo Stick." (I call them stooges, because they look just like A.I.M. agents, except with white suits instead of yellow.)

*He breaks the access code to the Bay Doors, but it does take him...Hmmm...from the conversations going on with other characters, I'll estimate 15-30 seconds. Although, you don't know when he started working on it, really...so, it could be longer.

*An enemy has some metal arms, and they block him, not allowing him to use his powers.

*He uses the computer to turn off the volume (of the music, I think) and puts it on "high volume sensor static."

#27:

*He takes apart a machine.

#29:

*A villian, Graverobber, takes him out quickly with charged energy cards. (Very much like Gambit.)

(Again, Meanstreak's speed isn't linked to reaction time. This is shown time and time again.)

#30:

*He can run fast enough to run on water.

#31:

*Another battle, and he's taken out with a villian who has energy powers that engulf his body.

#33:

*Zoomers capture him. (These are weird energy lights of some type that he was swiping away in the previous issue.)

[wiegeabo]

Hydro-Man vs Rhino

This is going to be short and sweet.

There's really not anything Rhino can do against Hydro-Man. These two could probably pound on each other for days and not get anywhere. But Rhino has to breath, and Hydro-Man would have no problem just flooding his lungs and drowning him.

Or, if Morris is feeling particularly playful, he could let the Rhino do the work. Rhino could burst through wall after wall chasing after Hydro-Man until he breaks right out the side and falls all the way to the ground.

But, seeing as how both these guys know each other, the direct approach is likely to be the best. And that means Rhino getting a lung full of his opponent.


Hydro-Man wins

[Phaedrus45]

Okay, now to get to some of these rebuttals. And with both of my Phaed debates and my W debate in this thread I feel sorry for the readers.

I agree. I feel very bad for the people having to read all this. But, I've done the research on both characters, and feel I can really argue nicely for my character now.


OKay, this is a better clarification. However, he's on an equal to lesser power level as Richard Rider Nova, and we've seen time and again how he can be hurt by basic laser blasts when connected and conventional blows. Apparently all this shows is that whatever blaster Rider had, it was pretty low powered. Not at all like the things the Hellicarrier would use.

Actually, I've now shown his power level is above that of Richard Rider, because up unto his death, he had Richard Rider's powers added to his own. So, he's twice the Nova member Richard was.

Also, I've shown the blaster is not your "basic laser blast[er]." This blaster flayed the flesh from a member aboard the spacecruiser, blasted a humongous hole into the hull, and the energy continued off into the sky. All this blaster did to Nova Omega was knock him out of the way, causing the shapeshifting Dire Wraith Queen to escape.



I actually don't picture Nova Omega as being just as fast as Meanstreak in closed quarters. I've never seen a Nova in closed quarters zip around as Meanstreak can, covering every aspect of a room in seconds. And while he may have had experiences on starships... this is the Hellicarrier and he's never dealt with it. Just because I've been in hundreds of houses in my life doesn't mean I can go into just any house and know my way around with ease.

Nova #17 shows both Richard Rider and Nova Omega flying around at fast speeds in the New Warriors Headquarters. Also, Nova Omega's speed can be seen earlier when he goes at light speed from the Moon to the Earth.


Actually, Nova Omega just weakened Volx's armor and died in the process. It was Night Thrasher who actually defeated Volx with a knife through the head. Not as impressive a feat when mentioned with all those extra details.

As I explained, in the second encounter with Volx, Nova Omega defeated her. Also, it was Nova Omega who helped saved the New Warriors from Sphinx in New Warriors #69. And, Nova Omega didn't just weaken Volx's armor in New Warriors #75. Volx was like...Nova Volx, having the Turbo armor and easily defeating the New Warriors. Nova Omega knew he had to give up his life to save Earth, much like T-Bird did in Exiles #10.



Maybe a typical kid, yes (me included) but if I go to my computer genious friend, Brian, and ask him about some 1970's computers he could just whip it out like it was nothing (I've seen him do it). Someone at Meanstreak's level won't have a problem at all.

In X-Men 2099, Meanstreak says, "As ready as I can be with archaic hardware Eddie brought in his pack." This shows Meanstreak has trouble working with older hardware.

Also, in all the appearances I've seen of Meanstreak, never once did he tackle any computers that seemed that advanced. Not once did he use security systems to attack the people he was fighting. And, when he needed to gain access with Halloween Jack into the casino, he had to get Desdemona's hand print first.



Actually, you're wrong. Meanstreak does have a lot of brute force. Ever been hit by a car going 100 miles per hour? Of course not, you'd be dead. You know why? Because that's a lot of brute force slamming into you. Same goes for fists going at those speeds or faster... against the head.... yeah, even a Nova Centurian will be rendered unconscious.

Not once did Meanstreak's speed cause the type of damage you described above. I listed all the fights Meanstreak was involved in, and only twice did he knock someone out. Once was with a "bo stick" against some A.I.M.-like lackeys, and the other time was against one of the Ratpack with a club. More often than naught, Meanstreak was being taken out with ease. As I noted, Meanstreak's speed does not translate to reaction time. (Also, note that when he did hit Dominic with his fist, it didn't knock that character out...it just had him cower with fear...and, that's more because of the type of character Dominic is.)

Another point to this, Nova Omega came at the New Warriors headquarter at great speed and broke through the wall with no side effects. That's proof he can take a hit...AND, this is before he takes Richard Rider's powers.

The problem is the downplaying of Nova Omega's powers, due to the lack of information before. The "basic energy gun" has turned out to be a lot more than that, and even that didn't knock him out. And, Volx turned out to be a very powerful, significant foe, who was able to take out the entire New Warriors and almost destroyed the Earth, if not for Nova Omega's ultimate sacrifice.

On top of this is the overplaying of Meanstreak's abilities. As noted, I went through all of his appearances, and it was less than impressive. He's easily taken out, and hardly anything he ever did with the computers amounted to much of anything. His best showing is X-Men 2099 #25....but, that's about it.


His getting captured has nothing to do with the match. Everyone and their brother's been captured time and again. Nova Prime was defeated by Volx in their first encounter, only escaped with the New Warriors help, then killed in their second encounter with Volx (and his attack couldn't even take Volx out). And he did very little inbetween the two fights, what 1 or 2 missions? And he even needed to team with the New Warriors to do well at those. Let's be honest... Nova Omega didn't have the most amazing track record either.

His getting captured is very significant. In the first nine issues of X-Men 2099, he's captured three times! And, it shows his speed might be impressive, but it does not translate to reaction time. A clothesline, like in wrestling, is enough to take down Meanstreak. Nova Omega won't have that problem.

One important factor is that if anything happens to the SHIELD helicarrier, Meanstreak will probably die on impact. Nova Omega has shown he can go through walls, and won't have a problem escaping the helicarrier and taking it down if needed.

Now, beyond that let's deal with Meanstreak's hacking abilities. To try to render those useless or less effective is a good strategy, but don't hold up. Keep in mind still, this tech is 100 years old to him. It's old stuff. He'll know how to over come it with ease. But if you want an example of him overcoming a big wig's designs and such, he did so in... I believe X-Men 2099 4 or so. Jordan Boone was a brilliant scientist that worked for Alcamax. He was a big character for early Spidey 2099 comics and then became an X-Men 2099 character named Halloween Jack. He hacked his stuff in seconds, no problem. Then, in X-Men 2099 25 (I think it was) he was going against the Theatre of Pain. This wasn't just a movie theater... this was a huge almost satanic organization... hugely hightech, and within seconds he was able to get into their systems.

Actually, from what I read, Halloween Jack shared his information with Meanstreak. Halloween Jack made the stuff...Meanstreak looked over the information and let him know he thought there could be some possible flaws...but, still couldnt' tell him what they were or how to fix them.

In issue #25, he opens the bay doors and turns up the static volume to hurt the ear drums of the regular security people. He does not do any of the things like is being supposed aboard the helicarrier.

As the bio says... he's a genious at this stuff. Is he Stark level? Don't know, there's nothing to compare in the future so who's to say. He's definately one of the higher ups for his time though. Just remember, the technlogy from his time is way more advanced than the stuff Reed, Tony, and Forge created. Or if I want to give the benefit of the doubt, at least on par. And it's not just because it's 100 years in the future... just look at the 2099 universe. Everything is hugely technologically advanced. Flying cars, holograms with their own personalities, internet that you can physically enter yourself and even live in, etc. The Hellicarrier is stone age to Meanstreak and the idea that he can't handle it really is a joke (no tone to this statement, I know it reads bad, but it's not meant to be so).

Well, in what I've seen, I cannot see anywhere Meanstreak being close to the smarts of Stark or being able to use Stark technology. Also, look at all the computers and stuff...they don't look like what most people would envision at 100 years in the future. In fact, it now looks like 20 years in the past, with all the computers being huge and bulky.

Also, we never see Meanstreak using the flying cars, holograms and such. And, Doom was much more impressive than Meanstreak the few times I saw him in their comics.



It's not brain science to figure this out. Any given person who knows how to work the computers can activate certain security measures. Someone who can move as quickly as Meanstreak's fingers and mind does should have no problem accessing them once he's in the system. There's no manipulation involved, just point and click. He's not just some joe schmo playing at a keyboard remember (though you're trying to prove otherwise, which I think I've shown otherwise). And as for the NO INDICATION portion... Jordan Boone seems to be up there and he overcame his stuff easily. Then later when they were working together (Boone became Halloween Jack) Meanstreak overcame the casino's security systems, which for their time, I'd say is right about the same as the Hellicarrier, and that... once again, took seconds. It wasn't some small casino... it was the powerhouse foundation for Las Vegas 2099... WAY more advanced than today's systems. Really, Meanstreak has shown EVERY INDICATION that he can hack an ancient computer security system like the Hellicarrier's. I'm surprised it's even an issue really. But I understand the debate. It's beneficial and the core of my whole argument, and without it I don't have as much to go on. However, this is all completely within his abilities and I've shown several examples of him being able to do this.

Actually, he wasn't able to hack into the Vegas system without Desdemona's hand print. Not very impressive. I've shown the examples of what Meanstreak has done, and NOTHING is shown that is an example of him doing what is supposed that he'd do in the helicarrier.



When was this actually shown? I've read most of his appearances and he never once teleports. I know he's sent at one point from whever it was he's from in space, but I don't think that was him but rather technological means from the place. I actually question this. Can you show an example?

This is a direct quote from the Official Marvel Handbook that came out around 2007 or 2008. It's in a Marvel comic, and I'm not sure what more can be said than that. It's in print, not just on a webpage. (We do see him flash to the moon at the beginning of Nova #17...so, that might be an indication of his teleporting power.)



And lets not forget that nearly every battle Nova Omega engaged in he was alongside the New Warriors, and the few issues I saw he did next to nothing until getting in a blow or two.

Actually, in nearly every battle, Nova Omega is SAVING the New Warriors from defeat. Even in his final appearance, it's his sacrifice that ultimately saves them.

And yes, Meanstreak is as durable as most people would be, nothing unexpected there, but Nova would have to land the hit. I've NEVER even seen Nova Omega maneuver like Meanstreak can.

This is the biggest problem Meanstreak has. Nobody has trouble hitting him, it seems. I've listed all the times, and these people are not speedsters. I said it many, many times already...but, super speed does not translate to reaction time, as is shown with Meanstreak over and over and over again.


Honestly, even if it does come to hand to hand battle... I still see Nova Omega getting decimated. Meanstreak can dodge blasts, hit, run, stop out of the room and start again.

Again, I've shown time and time again Meanstreak gets taken out quite easily.

Winner = Nova Omega

[JewishHobbit]

Okay, I'll debate this post, maybe a second, but then I have to start getting ready for church. I'll try to get more in tonight.



[B]Nova #17:

*As Richard is sitting in New Warriors Headquarter, Nova Omega blasts through the wall, standing over a shocked Richard Rider.

*Richard takes an old-school television (no flat screens back in the day), and whaps Nova Omega over the head with it. Nova Omega isn't fazed at all.

(This shows his powers and strength has no problem going through a wall or being hit with an object, like a tv.)

Can't argue this, but I still think 100+ MPH hits to the head will still be enough to really hurt him. The blasters would be a little less effective than I thought but perhaps the shear quantity of them that I've mentioned would be enough to at least wear him down.

*Nova Omega and Richard Rider fight in New Warriors Headquarters, flying at fast speeds.

*Also, we see how fast Nova Omega can fly, speeding around the Earth...and, even getting from the Moon to Earth at the beginning of this story in a matter of minutes...or possibly even seconds. (It's just a flash of light!)

(This shows that Nova Omega CAN use his flight powers and speed within the Helicarrier....even in a location he doesn't know. Also, it shows the extent of his speeds.)

I actually still question the speed point. I've said from post one that the Nova's can reach inredible speeds out in the open. It's the enclosed areas that have me question. Do you have a scan to see the extent of their interior fight? Because it may be flying from room to room, but can they stay within a single room moving that quick with complete control of their movements, momentum, turns, etc.? I'm thinking no. At least I've never seen any other Nova do that before.

Nova #18:

*In the case of this energy rifle...it's not your normal rifle. Volx, the Dire Wraith Queen grabs it after being fired upon by a member of the starship, and the ensuing blast flays ALL the skin off it's victim's bones and blasts a large hole in the side of the starship. (The blast even extends waaay past the ship, out into the air.) Said rifle is then attempted to be used on Volx, but Richard hits Nova Omega with the blast instead. The Dire Wraith Queen gets away, and Nova Omega doesn't get knocked out with the blast, but it causes enough of a disruption to allow her to escape. He then crushes the rifle in his hands, severely chastizing Richard.

So the question is, how powerful is the Hellicarrier's weaponry compared to Volx's? Can Tony and Reed come up with something that powerful or more? I certainly think so, but that's really an opinion matter and will probably be up to the voters.

*One important part is Nova Omega now not only has his Nova Force, but Richard's too. This is true until his death; so, it's important to note he's been augmented to this degree in this battle.

We have to remember though, this wasn't the Nova we know now. He didn't have the entire Nova force within him. They were both just basic Nova Centurians and now Nova Omega is just a double powerfuled Nova, which is still impressive, but not to the level of Nova after Annihilation (and even then we saw him get hurt and smacked down).

New Warriors #60:

*Upon the cancellation of Nova's series with that last issue, the story picks up in this issue of New Warriors. Indeed, somehow Nova Omega is captured by Volx....but, it's never shown or explained how he got captured.

*Volx is so powerful, she takes out the entire squadron of New Warriors, until Nova Omega breaks free from his cell, and blasts Volx into some kind of energy, seemingly eliminating her. During the struggle, Volx tries to use her Dire Wraith tongue to penetrate Nova Omega's skull, to no effect.

New Warriors #69:

Nova Omega is back, saving the New Warriors from Sphinx. He even takes a hit from Sphinx, but keeps going. He doesn't end up defeating Sphinx..(Nobody really does), but he saves the New Warriors from getting defeated.

New Warriors #75:

*The cancellation of New Warriors has Nova Omega having to return his powers to Richard Rider, and this is due to his death at the hands of an even more Bad-Ass Volx.

*Volx has been transformed TO THE MAX! She now has the Turbo armor, and knows how to use it. She's much larger, and is filled with some kind of crazy energy. The New Warriors are getting their butts KICKED, until Nova Omega saves them by absorbing Volx's energy, which he knows will only result in his death. (It's very much like T-Bolt in Exiles #10. Ulimate sacrifice and all that.)


Ok, now I have to find my X-Men 2099 box. Luckily, Nova and New Warriors were close together.[/QUOTE]

All of this tells me that Nova Omega seems to have trouble winning battles. He's captured. Needs the New Warrior's help to free him to defeat Volx. Interupts the Dr. Doom fight and still couldn't put an end to it. Then in the final fight against Volx he still doesn't finish it. And I've read that issue, I don't believe there's anything there to show he'd know it was too powerful for him. He just acted and died due to it. I'm not so sure it was a selfless sacrefice as much as a 'he just couldn't get the job done'.

This isn't to belittle Nova Omega or say he's crap or anything. He's a good character, but in the little time he had he wasn't very effective in finishing any battle. He needed the New Warrior's help nearly every time and even called them in to help him on that last adventure. Yes, Meanstreak also needs the X-Men, but this may just show that perhaps they're closer to the same playing field than most would have originally thought.

[JewishHobbit]

The History Of Meanstreak:

*Going very fast, Meanstreak opens up the cell doors of the Casino Holding Cells. Although, someone else has to take out the two guards on duty.

You make it sound like he wasn't able to and someone else HAD to do it. No, someone else just did. It's called teamwork.

#2:

*Someone asks Meanstreak if he's ready, when we see him working on some type of computer. He says, "As ready as I can be with archaic hardware Eddie brought in his pack."

(This goes with my theory that it isn't so easy dealing with computer programs that are considered out of date. This is the only instance I saw in the 35+ comics I looked at where he had to deal with "archaic hardware.")

I read this a TOTALLY differant way. I don't think he had difficulty but rather 1) the archaic hardware isn't as compatable and 2) it's not as effective for their task (as old tech isn't). I'd go on a limb and even say that if he can get archaic tech to work in light of their technological advances speaks highly of his skills.

*Meanstreak's speed can't keep him away from one of the Ratpack, who has freezing powers. Meanstreak gets taken down quite easily. He gets captured.


But the Dealer is a one touch knock out (and I don't think it was freezing, I think it had somthing more to do with a shock) and if memory serves, Meanstreak was just getting his run on. He didn't really catch him in a mid-dash or anything as he was just about to rush and help someone else, so he was even distracted at the time.

#4:

*The Ratpack did a number on their homebase. Meanstreak has the following quote: "Those Vegas goons really did a number on my system. Took me an hour just to get the basic ops back on-line."

(Took him an hour to get his own computer back online?? Sure, it's fast...but, I was under the impression he's faster than that.)

This is people who know the futuristic tech. and his fixing it. Dealing with the 'archaic tech' of today would be child's play in comparison. Again, I have a lot of computer swavay friends and they agree that old tech isn't a challenge.
#5:

*Heimdall takes out Meanstreak with a clothesline. (Just like in wrestling.) He's knocked out.

(For a side-note, this is part of a crossover. I just read this one issue. Not sure what he did in the rest of it.)

Also note... these Asguardians were augmented to have the power of the originals. The idea that a person with God-like quickness catching Meanstreak like this isn't exactly that big of a deal. But I don't remember this scene and can't really debate it.

The idea with Nova Omega is that he'd be warn out more than Meanstreak at this point and wouldn't be able to fight speed for speed as quickly. Between the Hellicarrier and a 100+ MPH punch or two to the head to distort him and keep him off his toes.

#8:

*Meanstreak dismantles some armor quickly and impressively. (He'll do this again in another issue. He's good at dismantling stuff.)

I don't recall this instance, but in the later showing it's pretty archaic droids... WAY more archaic than even LMD's. I'd say that shows his understanding of archaic tech just very well.

#9:

*He's knocked out again by some foe with a club. Yep, he's captured again. That's the third time in nine issues. Xi'an comes to save him and the other X-Men.

I can't picture this at all. What was the character's name to spark my memory? And what was the situation at hand (as I've noticed you mention the negative things, completely ignoring anything good he's done or the circumstances of the instances, which in my opinion negates the majority of these comments' trustworthiness.

#16:

*He tries to capture Halloween Jack, but Jack is too fast for him.

If memory serves, he's not doing his speed thing here. Just punching, maybe a small speed in his arms. Nothing like he's shown previously. And if I am remembering it wrong, then I'd say this is a scene that shows how impressive Jack is moreso than Meanstreak's faults.

#17:

*With assistance, Meanstreak takes down one of the Ratpack after grabbing a club from one of them and hitting another member with it. (Besides Dominic, it's the first time he's taken someone down, and this time it's at least someone of significance.)

*Turns out, they have to capture Desdemona in order to get into the casino resources. They use her hand print to gain access.

(I find this very significant. IF Meanstreak was so impressive with computers, you would think he could hack into the casino without Desdemona's handprint.)

You also have to remember that Jack is running the show at this point and Meanstreak is just doing what Jack tells him to do. Jack likes having Desdamona around and chances are, he just wanted to have here there to see his take over. It's very Halloween Jackish. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, this is the same casino that Meanstreak used 'archaic tech' on eariler and got what he wanted, so it's not too signifigant.

Also, this is 2099 tech. No one's got a full grasp of modern tech, but 100 year old tech... that's another issue altogether. It's old. It's simple. It's something that shouldn't be a problem for Meanstreak.

#18:

*After gaining access with Desdemona's handprint, he now gets into the Casino Computer System, and starts transfering money and such.

Again, there's the theory that this is how Jack wanted it. Plus, they were on a timeframe here and it may have set off too many alarms or something to alert police, etc. Modern day tech. Desdemona's attention. I've covered this already.

#19:

*Jack has a mad plan, and he's created a machine for this purpose. Jack looks over his plans and such, and thinks there might be some unsafe things about it.

(The keys point here is I thought Meanstreak helped make the machines in my previous arguments. This isn't the case. Meanstreak never shows the ability to make things; that is Halloween Jack.)

Doesn't hurt my argument at all. I never made such claims. Jack's always been the inventer of the two.

*Meanstreak gets knocked out...again. This time, a real strong guy grabs Halloween Jack and uses him as the club to hit Meanstreak.

(Really, shouldn't Meanstreak's speed help him avoid getting knocked out so quickly? Meanstreak is wicked fast...but, that speed does not translate to reaction time.)

I'm pretty sure Meanstreak wasn't knocked out here. He even goes on to navigate the entirety of the huge Casino to look for Desdemona Synge, who's controling his brother Lynton (the big brute). So this is TOTALLY misleading and ignoring a key scene that showcases his speed. As for reaction time, I remember the issue but not the exact scene. I'm pretty sure he was a bit distracted at the time due to either Lyton talking to Desdamona (who isn't there) or at just seeing Lyton so freakishly huge (when last they saw him he was a scrawny drug addict).

*Meanstreak is seen talking with a security guard, and asks him while holding a monitor, "This is a link to the security cameras?" He uses it to find one of the prisoners.

(Why is Meanstreak asking this question? He's a supposed expert with this kind of stuff, and I'd think he's know right away.)

This is obviously stretching. He's not a technopath. He doesn't know every computer system and layout and design in the world. He just finds them, hacks them, and navigates them.

#25:

*Possibly Meanstreak's best appearance. He unarms some stooges and knocks them out with a "Bo Stick." (I call them stooges, because they look just like A.I.M. agents, except with white suits instead of yellow.)

*He breaks the access code to the Bay Doors, but it does take him...Hmmm...from the conversations going on with other characters, I'll estimate 15-30 seconds. Although, you don't know when he started working on it, really...so, it could be longer.

*An enemy has some metal arms, and they block him, not allowing him to use his powers.

*He uses the computer to turn off the volume (of the music, I think) and puts it on "high volume sensor static."

So this shows us that he can fight an take out opponants, also that while he may have initial trouble figuring out tech from 100 years in the future (because oh... 15 to 30 seconds is even less time than I even gave him to figure out the simple archaic tech. I gave him a minute or two, so this actually helps me out.), he goes on to apparently do just fine with it later to dismantle a very complicated tech that took people's pain and played it in the minds of others to grant them orgasmic bliss through other's pain. THAT'S what Meanstreak altered, not a sound system. And it's not like there's just an "Off" butten and a "Static" button. He actually hacked the system. That's impressive if you ask me.


#31:

*Another battle, and he's taken out with a villian who has energy powers that engulf his body.

And I believe that energy is lightening. LIGHTENING! Makes sense that Lightening can get to him before he can run away. And though Skullfire catches this lightening later in his hands, remember, channeling and absorbing that energy is a part of his powers. I'd think that helped.

#33:

*Zoomers capture him. (These are weird energy lights of some type that he was swiping away in the previous issue.)

Misleading once again. They don't capture him. He's running beside them and hits a speed so great that he shifts from our dimension into theirs, and then runs off a cliff before he has a chance to realize what had happened and dies. The Zoomers are even surprised to find him there in issue 34. So no, no capturing involved.

[Phaedrus45]

Can't argue this, but I still think 100+ MPH hits to the head will still be enough to really hurt him. The blasters would be a little less effective than I thought but perhaps the shear quantity of them that I've mentioned would be enough to at least wear him down.

The problem is that we don't see Meanstreak doing hits ever at 100+ MPH. Most often, he got taken down. There are only one instance where he used his fist on someone, and that was Dominic...who wasn't knocked out. The other two times he actually did some actual fighting was using a club against one of the Ratpack and using a bo stick against three lackeys. Every other time, he got the snot beat out of him.



I actually still question the speed point. I've said from post one that the Nova's can reach inredible speeds out in the open. It's the enclosed areas that have me question. Do you have a scan to see the extent of their interior fight? Because it may be flying from room to room, but can they stay within a single room moving that quick with complete control of their movements, momentum, turns, etc.? I'm thinking no. At least I've never seen any other Nova do that before.

Like in the X-Men 2099 comics where we see bursts of speed to indicate Meanstreak is traveling fast, in Nova, we see bursts of light in their fight. Plus, Meanstreak has never used his extreme fastness in a fight; while he does run fast, he gets taken down quite easily on quite a few occassions with one blow.



So the question is, how powerful is the Hellicarrier's weaponry compared to Volx's? Can Tony and Reed come up with something that powerful or more? I certainly think so, but that's really an opinion matter and will probably be up to the voters.

Actually, in all my years of reading Marvel Comics, I can't remember seeing a weapon on that ship that would compare to what was shown with that blaster. And, we've seen the SHIELD helicarrier engaged in battle quite often, as recently as Secret Invasion and even with Gorgon.



We have to remember though, this wasn't the Nova we know now. He didn't have the entire Nova force within him. They were both just basic Nova Centurians and now Nova Omega is just a double powerfuled Nova, which is still impressive, but not to the level of Nova after Annihilation (and even then we saw him get hurt and smacked down).

That is true. This is not Nova with entire Nova Force. This is the Nova we all remember from his first series, second series, third series, and New Warriors.

[Phaedrus45]

You make it sound like he wasn't able to and someone else HAD to do it. No, someone else just did. It's called teamwork.

My thought was why open the cell doors when you could just have easily taken out the two guards on duty first. But, this could just be bad writing.




I read this a TOTALLY differant way. I don't think he had difficulty but rather 1) the archaic hardware isn't as compatable and 2) it's not as effective for their task (as old tech isn't). I'd go on a limb and even say that if he can get archaic tech to work in light of their technological advances speaks highly of his skills.

From what I read, the archaic type is not as easy for him to work with. Plus, as I pointed out, I see no indication in the X-Men 2099 that their computer systems are more advanced that what we see today...in fact, most of them appear outdated. (I've always viewed the 2099 universe as advanced....but, also behind the times. They are a repressive society, and in many ways, not advanced in many areas, as the higher-ups want to stiffle growth.)



But the Dealer is a one touch knock out (and I don't think it was freezing, I think it had somthing more to do with a shock) and if memory serves, Meanstreak was just getting his run on. He didn't really catch him in a mid-dash or anything as he was just about to rush and help someone else, so he was even distracted at the time.

This shows that Meanstreak cannot dash out of the way of an attack.


This is people who know the futuristic tech. and his fixing it. Dealing with the 'archaic tech' of today would be child's play in comparison. Again, I have a lot of computer swavay friends and they agree that old tech isn't a challenge.

The point is this is HIS tech. If anyone can fix it with ease, it should be him. I was surprised it took over an hour to do it.



Also note... these Asguardians were augmented to have the power of the originals. The idea that a person with God-like quickness catching Meanstreak like this isn't exactly that big of a deal. But I don't remember this scene and can't really debate it.

There is no God-Like quickness shown in this. With Meanstreak, we see the dash-like powers. Nothing like this is shown in Heimdall's attack. It's a simple clothesline.

The idea with Nova Omega is that he'd be warn out more than Meanstreak at this point and wouldn't be able to fight speed for speed as quickly. Between the Hellicarrier and a 100+ MPH punch or two to the head to distort him and keep him off his toes.

But, Meanstreak has NEVER shown using 100 MPH punches. In fact, it stands to reason with the evidence shown that Meanstreak would probably hurt himself more than he would Nova Omega. All evidence shows Meanstreak is not durable, but easily taken out with a good hit.



I don't recall this instance, but in the later showing it's pretty archaic droids... WAY more archaic than even LMD's. I'd say that shows his understanding of archaic tech just very well.



I can't picture this at all. What was the character's name to spark my memory? And what was the situation at hand (as I've noticed you mention the negative things, completely ignoring anything good he's done or the circumstances of the instances, which in my opinion negates the majority of these comments' trustworthiness.

I am telling everything that has happened with Meanstreak that shows his abilities being used. I have not ignored "anything good he's done," as I want to give the readers a clear indication of his powers and what he's done. (As I said, his best showing is X-Men 2099 #25; but, most other times, he does not come off as impressive at all, especially in battle.)

Frankly, commenting on my trustworthiness is insulting. I have indicated every time he did hit a character or use his technological powers. And, while some comments are biased, the translation of events are not.


If memory serves, he's not doing his speed thing here. Just punching, maybe a small speed in his arms. Nothing like he's shown previously. And if I am remembering it wrong, then I'd say this is a scene that shows how impressive Jack is moreso than Meanstreak's faults.

I have put the comics away, but I remember Meanstreak trying to capture Jack with speed..but, the point is he's trying and can't catch him. And, yes, the scene is to show how impressive Jack is. The problem is the writer has made Meanstreak seem very unimpressive, where even I was shocked by how easily he's shown being beat up to this point.


Again, there's the theory that this is how Jack wanted it. Plus, they were on a timeframe here and it may have set off too many alarms or something to alert police, etc. Modern day tech. Desdemona's attention. I've covered this already.

It clearly has Jack saying he needs Desdemona's hand print in order to get into there. I read no hidden agenda by Jack in his statement.



Doesn't hurt my argument at all. I never made such claims. Jack's always been the inventer of the two.

Nope, this was what I thought...and, I figured if I thought he helped in making the tech, then some readers might think it too. We don't see Meanstreak ever making things in the comics...he's mainly hacking into computers, or taking things apart...or, fixing his own computer.



I'm pretty sure Meanstreak wasn't knocked out here. He even goes on to navigate the entirety of the huge Casino to look for Desdemona Synge, who's controling his brother Lynton (the big brute). So this is TOTALLY misleading and ignoring a key scene that showcases his speed. As for reaction time, I remember the issue but not the exact scene. I'm pretty sure he was a bit distracted at the time due to either Lyton talking to Desdamona (who isn't there) or at just seeing Lyton so freakishly huge (when last they saw him he was a scrawny drug addict).

Nope, I wrote knocked out, which I only did when it was clear he was.

As for using his speed to find Desdemona, that was after he looked at the security camera which told him where to find her.

Also, I have not dismissed his speed, it's just when engaged in battle, it is not used. I go with the assumption that we have understood that Meanstreak is fast; all this is about technological know-how and fighting skills. I have agreed before that Meanstreak is fast. (I even went so far as to include a totally non-important part in my assessment of Meanstreak by pointing out he can run on water, which I thought was important to show how fast he can run.)



So this shows us that he can fight an take out opponants, also that while he may have initial trouble figuring out tech from 100 years in the future (because oh... 15 to 30 seconds is even less time than I even gave him to figure out the simple archaic tech. I gave him a minute or two, so this actually helps me out.), he goes on to apparently do just fine with it later to dismantle a very complicated tech that took people's pain and played it in the minds of others to grant them orgasmic bliss through other's pain. THAT'S what Meanstreak altered, not a sound system. And it's not like there's just an "Off" butten and a "Static" button. He actually hacked the system. That's impressive if you ask me.

As I said, this is the one case where he shows himself as somewhat impressive. If this was his only appearance, it would suit him better. BUT, the reader must account for all the other appearances. Still, I don't find it impressive enough to take out Nova Omega. Hitting Nova Omega with a bo stick or club will not hurt him, especially when he can bust through a wall.




And I believe that energy is lightening. LIGHTENING! Makes sense that Lightening can get to him before he can run away. And though Skullfire catches this lightening later in his hands, remember, channeling and absorbing that energy is a part of his powers. I'd think that helped.

Basically, it's an energy that erupts from the villians hands...and, Meanstreak does not avoid it with his speed. (Also, it looks like fire...but, gets a reaction like lighting. I tried to find out what the energy was; but, couldn't find them exactly saying.)



Misleading once again. They don't capture him. He's running beside them and hits a speed so great that he shifts from our dimension into theirs, and then runs off a cliff before he has a chance to realize what had happened and dies. The Zoomers are even surprised to find him there in issue 34. So no, no capturing involved.

I'll provide a quote:

"Meanstreak tried out race them, pushing himself close to breaking the sound barrier, when suddenly an energy field appeared and sucked him away to a mysterious location."

Meanstreak couldn't outrun the zoomers, and it appeared that the energy field was from them. Now, I could be wrong...but, I'd have to look at that issue again. I assumed the energy field was from the zoomers.

Plus, I left it out, but it appeared that Meanstreak might have been killed. Last time we saw him, it appeared he dropped from a height, because his body was plastered into the ground.

[JewishHobbit]

Final Meanstreak Vs Nova Omega Rebuttal

The problem is that we don't see Meanstreak doing hits ever at 100+ MPH. Most often, he got taken down. There are only one instance where he used his fist on someone, and that was Dominic...who wasn't knocked out. The other two times he actually did some actual fighting was using a club against one of the Ratpack and using a bo stick against three lackeys. Every other time, he got the snot beat out of him.

Every other time that I remember was when he was surprised, distracted, or whatnot, but we've already covered my thoughts on those. And it doesn't matter if he uses his fist, a club, a bo stick, or a shoe, at those speeds, a hit will hurt. I don't care who you are, a hit at those speeds are going to hurt. If Dominic wasn't unconscious then he didn't hit him that hard. It would go against common sense, and obviously it worked on the other guards and the guy from the ratpack. It'd work on Nova Omega as well.

Like in the X-Men 2099 comics where we see bursts of speed to indicate Meanstreak is traveling fast, in Nova, we see bursts of light in their fight. Plus, Meanstreak has never used his extreme fastness in a fight; while he does run fast, he gets taken down quite easily on quite a few occassions with one blow.

This is still just showing speed, not maneuverability. Meanstreak has actually been shown with tramendous maneuverability. Specifically in X-Men 2099 4 when he's searching Boone's room for clues (or maybe it was in Ravage 2099 prior to the Fall of the Hammer, not sure).

Actually, in all my years of reading Marvel Comics, I can't remember seeing a weapon on that ship that would compare to what was shown with that blaster. And, we've seen the SHIELD helicarrier engaged in battle quite often, as recently as Secret Invasion and even with Gorgon.

I'm thinking of the blast in Secret War when one demolished the whole secret Shield base in the Savage Land. That was a lot of powerful firepower (now at Meanstreak's disposal).

[JewishHobbit]

From what I read, the archaic type is not as easy for him to work with. Plus, as I pointed out, I see no indication in the X-Men 2099 that their computer systems are more advanced that what we see today...in fact, most of them appear outdated. (I've always viewed the 2099 universe as advanced....but, also behind the times. They are a repressive society, and in many ways, not advanced in many areas, as the higher-ups want to stiffle growth.)

Besides looking at Halo City toward the end of the series, just look at every 2099 book that came out. You can actually enter the internet (happened a lot in Doom 2099). They have holograms that actually have their own personalities, and in some situations, feelings (such as with Lyla in Spider-Man 2099). There's teleportation machines in every comic (like the one the Free Radicals escaped in around X-Men 2099 19 or so). Flying cars and bikes, like all the cars driven in the line and the Public enemy fly. Etc. Etc. Etc. It's very obvious the tech of the future is FAR more advanced that what we see now.

The point is this is HIS tech. If anyone can fix it with ease, it should be him. I was surprised it took over an hour to do it.

Grab an amazing techie and have someone fry their computer in various ways. Chances are it'll take hours, days, or even weeks to fix it. Or it may not even be fixable at all. That fact that it only took Meanstreak 1 hour to completely fix it speaks very highly of his skills. But keep in mind, that old Hellicarrier tech isn't broken, so it shouldn't cause a problem.

But, Meanstreak has NEVER shown using 100 MPH punches. In fact, it stands to reason with the evidence shown that Meanstreak would probably hurt himself more than he would Nova Omega. All evidence shows Meanstreak is not durable, but easily taken out with a good hit.

He's not durable, but at his dashes and clotheslined would have killed him and didn't. That shows some durability. His quick hit against Dominic would have broken something, but it didn't. That's durability. And as I said, the Hellicarrier is full of junk. Grab a knife for gods sake. He can always use a hard or sharp object to hit with. It's no differant and really add's no level of difficulty to him. Honestly, it might even help, as objects typically hurt more than fists. Pipe at 100 mph to the head.... always an instant death. For someone as durable as Nova Omega, instant knock out. Not sure why I didn't think of his using objects but I'm glad you brought that club and bo stick up because that really helps my argument.

I am telling everything that has happened with Meanstreak that shows his abilities being used. I have not ignored "anything good he's done," as I want to give the readers a clear indication of his powers and what he's done. (As I said, his best showing is X-Men 2099 #25; but, most other times, he does not come off as impressive at all, especially in battle.) Frankly, commenting on my trustworthiness is insulting. I have indicated every time he did hit a character or use his technological powers. And, while some comments are biased, the translation of events are not.

Actually, up to this point on the list you really didn't. It wasn't until later that you started using it and I noticed it then and planned on going back to erase that comment and kinda forgot. That's my bad. And the comment on your trusthworthiness was definately too far on my part as well. I didn't mean it how it sounded but I should know better and have recognized that it could have been insulting. I'm sorry and we all know that you're a better man that that.

I have put the comics away, but I remember Meanstreak trying to capture Jack with speed..but, the point is he's trying and can't catch him. And, yes, the scene is to show how impressive Jack is. The problem is the writer has made Meanstreak seem very unimpressive, where even I was shocked by how easily he's shown being beat up to this point.

Yeah, sadly I think the writers really wanted to showcase Skullfire, Cerebra, Bloodhawk, and Xi'an at the cost of Metalhead, Krystalin, and Meanstreak... thowing them a bone here and there. Ticks me off when they do that. Especially when things, such as this scenerio, really shouldn't be possible. Or the Heimdall or Ratpack defeat of Meanstreak. It's all pretty crappily done.

It clearly has Jack saying he needs Desdemona's hand print in order to get into there. I read no hidden agenda by Jack in his statement.

It's been a while and I could be wrong. But I just wanted to throw that idea out there.

Nope, this was what I thought...and, I figured if I thought he helped in making the tech, then some readers might think it too. We don't see Meanstreak ever making things in the comics...he's mainly hacking into computers, or taking things apart...or, fixing his own computer.

Which is fine because he doesn't need to build anything in the battle, Just hack the Hellicarrier computers and see how to turn things on. Way below his abilities.

Also, I have not dismissed his speed, it's just when engaged in battle, it is not used. I go with the assumption that we have understood that Meanstreak is fast; all this is about technological know-how and fighting skills. I have agreed before that Meanstreak is fast. (I even went so far as to include a totally non-important part in my assessment of Meanstreak by pointing out he can run on water, which I thought was important to show how fast he can run.)

Very good. The question really is if he can battle at high speeds. He doesn't do it often at all, as you've shown, but the fact that he has been shown doing it twice tells us that he can. And while Nova Omega is a lot more sturdy than the people he did fight, that's why I'm hoping that Meanstreak will be able to use the Hellicarrier to where him down first. If he can get that first blow in then he'll be alright. I'm not saying he'll be jumping all over the guy at 100 mph, but back and forth dashes, hitting him as he passes. Nova Omega's distortedness due to the first hit and his distraction and weariness from the Hellicarrier attacks are only designed to help.

As I said, this is the one case where he shows himself as somewhat impressive. If this was his only appearance, it would suit him better. BUT, the reader must account for all the other appearances. Still, I don't find it impressive enough to take out Nova Omega. Hitting Nova Omega with a bo stick or club will not hurt him, especially when he can bust through a wall.

Whose to say he didn't beam it on the way to weaken it? We don't see it from his point of view, just Richard Rider's (according to your coverage of that issue). It's entirely possible that he broke through on his own, and it's entirely possible that he blasted it upon entry with the Nova Force helping him to do it. Without knowing really we can't assume one way or the other, but I'm willing to allow the voters the chance to decide that on their own and to decide if a pipe or knife or whatever would do the damage I think it will.

I'll provide a quote:

"Meanstreak tried out race them, pushing himself close to breaking the sound barrier, when suddenly an energy field appeared and sucked him away to a mysterious location."

Meanstreak couldn't outrun the zoomers, and it appeared that the energy field was from them. Now, I could be wrong...but, I'd have to look at that issue again. I assumed the energy field was from the zoomers.


Nah. In the last issue it mentioned that the zoomers are actually surprised to find one of earth's people in their own world. That shows they didn't do it themselves. I get the feeling the writers had other plans for Meanstreak and the zoomers but couldn't get back to it due to the series ending, so we're left with Meanstreak's death.

Fortunately, however, he's not dead here, and he just kicked Nova Omega's butt.

Winner - Meanstreak


Okay, and now that that is finished, I think I'm pretty much finished with this debate. We're really going in circles now about the same 2 things and I think the readers can make their decisions based on what we've said (if they even make it this far). So unless you come up with something big I feel NEEDS a debate, for the sake of the readers, I'm going to call my portion of this debate finished.

It's been an awsome debate and I honestly have no idea who will win this match. I hate debating you. *butt slap* good game.

[wiegeabo]

Vibraxas vs Slapstick

Tough fight for Vibraxas. He's essentially doing battle with a cartoon character.


Defensively, Vibraxas has the ability to phase himself. So if things start going badly, he can just duck through a wall, or slip through the floor to the next lower deck. This actually creates a rather elegant strategy. Vibraxas phases through a wall, Slapstick bashes through it to follow (probably using a giant hammer), and Vibraxas grabs him and starts vibrating Slapstick's body.

One of two things can happen at this point. Vibraxas may be able to vibrate Slapstick so violently, that he becomes a quivering puddle of goo. Or, he can use his ability to phase shift others, and phase Slapstick so he just slips down through all the decks of the helicarrier, and right out into the empty sky to the ground a long way down.

This isn't going to be a straight up fight once Vibraxas sees how resistant Slapstick is to normal attacks. Plus, Vibraxas can't risk tearing up the helicarrier seeing as how their flying around in it. So, for Vibraxas at least, it's comes down to a little trickiness and thinking outside the box.


Vibraxas wins

[JewishHobbit]

FINAL THUNDERBIRD (EXILES) VS IRON MAN REBUTTAL

This is like with my character, Ahab. As I pointed out, it was clear that the writer of those comics meant Ahab to be Cable...but, another writer comes around later, not explaining the obvious, but changing his character. I'll just say that it was pointed out that we have to go with current writing, even though it might suck.

To me, it's just like Ahab. And, by your own words, you said we have to accept Ahab is not to be considered Cable....we have to accept the newest writing, no matter how much we might disagree with it.


I'm going to call this match done as well as I think we've said all we can say. I'll just comment on this part as it's new and I think that'll be it and as far as I'm concerned, the rest of these two matches are in the hands of the voters.

Okay, I see a big differance between the Ahab example and the Thunderbird (exiles) example. With Ahab it's a complete alteration of the character's origin. You HAVE to acknowledge who the character's become because that is just flat out who your character is. Hobgoblin was Kingsley, not Ned Leeds. Cable is Nathan Summers, not Cannonball. Ahab is Rory Campbell, not Cable. These are complete alterations of a character's history, experiences, and everything that makes them who they are in the comics and in this tournament. To ignore that would just be detramental to everything. (You wouldn't argue that Cable is actually Cannonball would You? Of course not, same with Ahab. The change is too big and too important.

In situations where bad writing just alters a person's bravery and durability (especially just for the sake of making another character look better) it's just a minor adjustment and more prone to be ignored or explained away. The character hasn't really changed, they're still who they are, just written a little worse.

But as shown in my previous post on this match, I threw a good reasoning for him to move past this bad writing for the sake of the tournament. It's up to the readers whether or not they want to support it or not.

Come on, you all know Thunderbird would rip open that Iron man suite and slurp him out like sushi!

Winner - Thunderbird (Exiles)


Okay, and now with that I'm also finished with this debate. It's in the hands of the voters. Again, *butt slap* good game.

[JewishHobbit]

Vibraxas vs Slapstick

Tough fight for Vibraxas. He's essentially doing battle with a cartoon character.


Defensively, Vibraxas has the ability to phase himself. So if things start going badly, he can just duck through a wall, or slip through the floor to the next lower deck. This actually creates a rather elegant strategy. Vibraxas phases through a wall, Slapstick bashes through it to follow (probably using a giant hammer), and Vibraxas grabs him and starts vibrating Slapstick's body.

One of two things can happen at this point. Vibraxas may be able to vibrate Slapstick so violently, that he becomes a quivering puddle of goo. Or, he can use his ability to phase shift others, and phase Slapstick so he just slips down through all the decks of the helicarrier, and right out into the empty sky to the ground a long way down.

This isn't going to be a straight up fight once Vibraxas sees how resistant Slapstick is to normal attacks. Plus, Vibraxas can't risk tearing up the helicarrier seeing as how their flying around in it. So, for Vibraxas at least, it's comes down to a little trickiness and thinking outside the box.


Vibraxas wins

Hmm, excellent strategy. However, the vibrating into a puddle of goo shouldn't work because he's been goo and reformed before. Shouldn't be too hard to do it again.

The Phasing idea is a good one but if he has the ability to alter reality around him to make him a cartoon I'd think he could alter reality around himself to solidify again. And honestly, has the Coyote ever died from the fall off the cliff? Slapstick will just shake it off and get right back up there, or Vibraxas will have to come down. Either way, match isn't over until one's unconsious or rendered inert, and Vibraxas just doesn't have that ability within him for this match.

Winner - Slapstick

[Phaedrus45]

Yeah, I'm good with ending both our debates, as we'll just be repeating ourselves. And, thanks for the apology on the one part; I really appreciate that. And, I understand how it gets heated and that happens now and again.

You know, I was thinking that a good thing to maybe do in the future is have a "Closing Argument" kind of thing. But, it might be a bit tricky. What would have to happen is both sides would have to agree they've come to a conclusion of a debate, and then get to present a closing argument that the other person cannot touch. It would be a chance to present your closing case, but not allowed to add anything else to the debate. And, the person who goes second would have to gentlemanly agree to not read the other person's closing argument before presenting his own.

Anyway, that's just a thought of mine. Not sure how well it would work out; but, at least we can all present our main bullet points that we want the readers to focus on, especially if we're afraid they might have missed something in these long, drawn-out debates.

Good luck, JH! It's always a pleasure to debate you. I really don't mind if I win or lose; but, I do hate if I don't give someone a challenge. You're always one of those.

[POWdER-man]

After reading about half of it so far I just have to say I hate you guys....:cmad:



:p

[wiegeabo]

After reading about half of it so far I just have to say I hate you guys....:cmad:



:p

:up:

Let's vote for neither! ;)

[POWdER-man]

I was thinking about that...:p

[JewishHobbit]

Then I'll vote against each of your matches... for the next four weeks!

[wiegeabo]

Then I'll vote against each of your matches... for the next four weeks!

We'll lose one vote for four weeks, you'll lose two votes for the tourney!


Bwahahahahahaha!!! :doom:

[random_havoc]

Then I'LL do a write in vote for every round declaring that POPEYE is the winner!!! NO ONE can beat POPEYE!

[Phaedrus45]

With Popeye, you just have to remove his spinach. (Of course, you could just argue that the characters wouldn't know who Popeye is...but, then I would argue that the 616 resembles our world, and if we know Popeye, they'd know Popeye...then, we'd argue back and forth and agree to leave it up to the voters.)

Or, my character, Mystique, would look like Olive Oil...and, when he didn't realize it, POP, in the back of the head.

[Franklin Richards]

Bracket 7

Match 1:

Hydro-Man (WIEGEABO) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Man)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/hydro.jpg

vs.

Rhino (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhino_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/rhino-1.jpg




Talk about a push!



Rhino can win this one. He's just got to use his... wait for it... brains. Rhino needs two things in this little skrimish. Both of which he can find in the Helicarrier.


One : The not so important re-breather. If Rhino can find some sort of breathing apparatus it would certainly help.


But if he can't...


Two : Electricity. Rhino can only set a trap for Hydro. If Hydro pulls his "surround Rhino in water and drown him" trick, then Rhino will be ready. He will simply use his great strength to pull out a power cable from the wall, the floor, a doohickey. Once he has this power cable he can shock Hydro into submission. Either Hydro will evaporate or return to normal or pass out. If he evaporates. Win. If he returns to normal. Bonk. Win. If he passes out. Win.


Winner : Rhino.



:thing: :thing: :thing:

[wiegeabo]

One : The not so important re-breather. If Rhino can find some sort of breathing apparatus it would certainly help.

First, he'd have to know what a rebreather is. Rhino's not the smartest guy around. Then he'd actually have to find one and know how to use it before Hydro-Man gets to him. And even if he does use one, he's got to keep Hydro-Man from knocking it off/destroying it.


Two : Electricity. Rhino can only set a trap for Hydro. If Hydro pulls his "surround Rhino in water and drown him" trick, then Rhino will be ready. He will simply use his great strength to pull out a power cable from the wall, the floor, a doohickey. Once he has this power cable he can shock Hydro into submission. Either Hydro will evaporate or return to normal or pass out. If he evaporates. Win. If he returns to normal. Bonk. Win. If he passes out. Win.


Is Rhino going to get the chance when Hydro-Man's already filled his lungs? And if he can't find a useful power supply, then he's out of luck. Remember, Hydro-Man doesn't have to present himself to fight and give Rhino a chance to prepare. He can flow through the pipes and explode out at the last moment, taking Rhino by surprise.

Hell, if Hydro-Man's feeling particularly playful/nasty, he could work at ripping the carrier apart. Enough so that it comes crashing to the ground. Hydro-Man can survive this, but Rhino probably won't.


Hydro-Man wins

[Franklin Richards]

Power conduits run throughout that thing. Self contained ship? Gotta be like the Enterprise in there. He's strong enough to withstand an instant assault and he's endurant enough to hold his breath for several minutes if he has too.

Ripping up the walls and floors will serve him well. And I'm pretty sure he'd survive a crash.



:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Phaedrus45]

Debating Is Over!

Voting May Begin!!!

[Phaedrus45]

My Votes:

*Rhino - (I went back and forth on this. I don't see any way Rhino thinks about finding a rebreather...more likely, he'll come into the match with ear plugs in his nose, thinking that will be enough. BUT, even an idiot would think to use electricity against Hydro-Man...and, the helicarrier is filled with electricity.)

*Slapstick

*Nova Omega

*Iron Man

[wiegeabo]

Hydro-Man

Vibraxas

Nova Omega - I think he's just too much for Meanstreak.

Iron Man - Horrible location for Thunderbird. Which is a shame.

[Vanguard07]

Rhino
Slapstick
Nova Omega
Thunderbird

[random_havoc]

Hydro-man
Slapstick
Nova whozawhatzit
Iron Man

[Franklin Richards]

Rhino
Slapstick - Despite his best efforts.
Nova Omega
Iron Man - Home field.


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Midnight Ice]

Rhino
Slapstick
Nova Omega
Iron Man-Man oh man, Talk about some good debates!!! I went back and forth after each post. Great job to both of you! In the end, I voted for Iron Man because of the location. He knows it and its uses all to well. Any other location, and I probably voted for Thunderbird. I hated having to pick one.

[POWdER-man]

Crap, crap, crap....I read all this last night...definitely the hardest group.

Slapstick - he is a wildcard (litterally)
At first I was going to say Hydroman for sure but the electricity argument was compelling....but then I started to think about how Rhino would get electrocuted as well....
Hydro-Man - Rhino, is just dumb, dumb, dumb

sigh....now JH/Phaed you made this really hard to decide...
I have to give it to...
Nova Omega - in the end I just don't see meanstreek winning this.

crap now this match...

When I started reading about Iron Man leading T-Bird in a direction I started thinking about how WWH just ripping through the hellecarrier. The gas argument was a stretch. Although T-Bird doesn't seem the same after coming back. However Iron Man isn't exactly 100%....the location obviously favors IM, but can it hurt T-bird enough.... so the final question is will t-bird hulk out....
When push comes to shove I think...damn I don't like saying either name...
Thunderbird

[JewishHobbit]

Hydroman

Slapstick

Thunderbird (exiles)

Meanstreak

[Ahura Mazda]

Hydroman - Rhino is too stupid to set a trap

Slapstick - Don't see how he could be defeated apart from battle field removal

Nova Omega - I am not sure Meanstreak could hack in before Nova could get to him

Iron Man - First off, this was a very tough decision. I know the capabilities of thunderbird who I think in a straight up fight would defeat Iron man, especially this version of Iron Man (I however do want to state that this was not 616 Savage Hulk but an exiles version who was created so that Thuderbird could defeat him). However, iron man should be able to gain control of the Helicarrier albeit through a backdoor channel and the latest version of Thunderbird is unlikely to beast out quick enough for this battle. If this was just the early version, I am not sure my decision would be the same.

[Harlekin]

Hydro-Man
Slapstick
Nova Omega
Iron Man

[Hellstormer]

Thunderbird (Exiles

Nova Omega

Slapstick

Hydroman

[WitchKing]

T-bird
Nova Omega
Slapstick
Hydroman

[Phaedrus45]

Final Results:

Hydro-Man defeats Rhino 8-4

Slapstick defeats Vibraxas 11-1

Nova Omega defeats Meanstreak 11-1

Iron Man defeats T-Bird 7-5

[Phaedrus45]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg


Bracket 7

Match 1:

Agatha Harkness (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha_Harkness)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/agatha-1.jpg

vs.

Wonder Man (VANGUARD07) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Man)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/wonder.jpg

Match 2:

Nightcrawler (MIDNIGHTICE) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightcrawler_(comics))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/night.jpg

vs.

Harvest-Phalanx (PHAEDRUS45) link (http://www.mutanthigh.com/harvest.html)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/harvest-1.jpg

[Phaedrus45]

Bracket 8

Match 1:

Firestar (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestar)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/fire.jpg

vs.

Tana Nile (AHURAMAZDA) link (http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-tananile.html)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/tana.jpg

Match 2:

Davos-Steel Phoenix (JEWISHHOBBIT) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Serpent)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/davos.jpg

vs.

Tusk (AHURAMAZDA) link (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Tusk_(Earth-616))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/tusk-1.jpg

[Phaedrus45]

LOCATION: New York 2099

Can't find much online about New York in this time period. Here is a link to the 2099 Universe:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_2099_(Earth-928)

This will be populated; but, no other superpowered people are included.

[Phaedrus45]

Debating May Begin!!!

[Phaedrus45]

Opening Debate: Nightcrawler vs. Harvest-Phalanx

Bios:

Harvest:

*Harvest can shapeshift

*Harvest can access computers with the speed of thought

*Harvest can create plasma-firing weapons out of his body

*Harvest can absorb organic and inorganic materials, including people, to regenerate himself. Harvest had the unique ability to absorb more than one person at a time, and to keep them from being completely assimilated so that he could use them as drones even after his link to the collective was broken.

Nightcrawler:

*Teleportation

*Enhanced night vision

*Superhuman acrobat/gymnast, prehensile tail, ability to stick to walls

*Blending into shadows

*Skilled in martial arts, hand to hand combat and fencing training


Well, we all know Nightcrawler pretty well; sadly, not much information is found about Harvest. (I'll have to research this character over the weekend to see if I can garner any usefull information not in that one link.)

Neither Nightcrawler or Harvest will have a clue as to what to expect in this future location; yet, I'll say the location definitely is an advantage to Harvest for a variety of reasons. I see no positives for Nightcrawler, besides the fact that this will be at night.

Reasons for Harvest having an advantage due to location:

1) This place is populated. As it says in his bio, "Harvest can absorb organic and inorganic materials, including people, to regenerate himself. Harvest had the unique ability to absorb more than one person at a time, and to keep them from being completely assimilated so that he could use them as drones even after his link to the collective was broken." This means that Harvest will be able to keep himself powered with the various individuals around him; and, Nightcrawler will effective be fighting not only Harvest, but other individuals.

2) As it also states in Harvest's bio, "*Harvest can access computers with the speed of thought." He will be able to link into any available computer and start going to work immediately. If I remember right, the future 2099 universe is filled with cameras that are able to detect people. Harvest can locate Nightcrawler...and, it's even easier, because the stipulations of this contest is a 2 mile radius, which narrows the search down.

3) Harvest can shapeshift...so, Nightcrawler can be completely taken by surprise. (Also, with the ability to assimilate others, Harvest will have additional eyes and ears out on the road.)

The main problem Nightcrawler has is that Harvest will be able to assimilate him if they come in contact. And, with shapeshifting, having others working for Harvest, and access to computers, it's clear Nightcrawler is outmatched in this first round.

Winner = Harvest

[JewishHobbit]

Steel Phoenix Vs Tusk

I like Tusk, but he's just kind of an aimless brute. He's never been shown to be particularly bright or even that great at physical combat. He is durable, yes, and at least a little superhumanly strong, but he's never done well in fights. He usually goes down easy to any X-Man that's fighting him. His gift of creating little versions of himself to fight independantly is a help but the most I've ever seen him create are 3, so it's not all that much help.

Now Davos, in this tournament is the Steel Phoenix, which was who he was during the second arc of the Immortal Iron Fist, the 7 Cities of Heaven when he was at his most powerful (at least that I've seen). He has no superhuman strength or durability but his fighting is top notch and he is quick. He can keep up with Iron Fist and we saw in that same arc that he was able to beat the crap and seemingly nearly kill Tiger's Beautiful Daughter, who was very quick and life long trained in martial arts (think Katana from Mortal Combat... fans and all). His kicks and punches are laced with the Chi power of an ancient city and are powerful enough to render any of Tusk's dupes unconscious with one blow really, even with their durability.

Tusk is strong, but he's never been shown to be particularly fast or bright, so in a fight against a seasoned veteran and highly trained and devious Davos, he really shouldn't stand much of a chance. It really shouldn't take more than a couple purple-lit blows for Tusk to break and go down a bloody mess. I honestly don't even see Tusk getting a hit in.

Winner - Davos the Steel Phoenix

[Franklin Richards]

Bracket 7

Match 1:

Agatha Harkness (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha_Harkness)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/agatha-1.jpg

vs.

Wonder Man (VANGUARD07) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Man)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/wonder.jpg


Magic users are always so hard to pin down with specifics. So I like to use the old Marvel RPG books when I try to understand a mage.

In the Marvel RPG they list Agatha's specialties as...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/DTL/AgathaPowers.jpg

Agatha has extensive knowledge in divining information about places, people, and things. She can even garner information from Wonder Man's own brain. From the inhabitants. From the animal and insect life. From the plants.

Agatha will know everything.


She'll take up residence in a church tower. From there she will do her scrying during preptime. She will prepare glyphs and runes to protect her. She will put up veils of illusion as to appear that all is well.

She will then use a viewing portal to cast a shapechanging spell on Wonder Man.


Since you won't let Agatha have her familiar... which you never see her without in print.... she will just have to get a new one.


She turns Wonder Man into a kitty.


Agatha Harkness Wins.



:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Franklin Richards]

Bracket 8

Match 1:

Firestar (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestar)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/fire.jpg

vs.

Tana Nile (AHURAMAZDA) link (http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-tananile.html)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/tana.jpg



Firestar is a hero.


She'll spend the preptime warning all to stay away. She'll get civilians to evacuate. She'll then fly out to try to find the bad guy. When she does she'll nuke her and try to knock her unconscious. She'll try knocking debris on her. Lampposts ... Walls... Telephone poles.

Anything to win the day. Firestar can roll with the punches pretty well because of her flight and zaps.

And don't forget...

from Wiki...

On rare occasion, Firestar has demonstrated the ability to disrupt the psionic powers of others using her own power (namely, Emma Frost, Empath, and the Darkling).


She is resistant to mind control.


Firestar wins.



:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Vanguard07]

Wonderman vs Agatha Harkness: Opening Debate

The biggest advantage Wonderman has here is that we've ruled out ringouts.
That being the case, Agatha Harkness can't just teleport him away, and must resort to more direct attacks.

Attacks that Wonderman can likely endure and force himself past.

Wonderman's powers (courtesy of Marveldatabase)
He's a top tier heavyweight, veteran superhero with strength and durability comparable to the strongest heroes out there ie Thor or Hercules. He has strength capable of lifting an unknown ammount of weight, well in excess of 100tons and is invulnerable to match. He has superhuman speed, reflexes and flight, limitless stamina, immunity to poisons and deseases and the ability to survive without food water or air. His body is made of ionic energy and he has shown the ability to survive and reform even if that energy is dispersed. He's also essentially immortal.

Agatha Harkness is a powerfull sorceress/witch but physically she's a very old woman.
Now magic is pretty vague, but again, given that ringouts are ruled out and given that Wonderman can reform even when his energies are dispersed, he should be powerful enough to endure anything Harkness can throw at him, force/break his way past her defenses and once he reaches her, knock her out.

Harkness has been shown to be extremely knowledgeable in magic but is rarely shown in actual combat. from what I've seen she's more often a magical teacher (and those who can't do, teach) , schemer or adviser. She would be formidable with her magic but I dont think she'd be formidable enough to win this.

Wonderman should be able to pull off a win.

[Vanguard07]

Magic users are always so hard to pin down with specifics. So I like to use the old Marvel RPG books when I try to understand a mage.

In the Marvel RPG they list Agatha's specialties as...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/DTL/AgathaPowers.jpg

Agatha has extensive knowledge in divining information about places, people, and things. She can even garner information from Wonder Man's own brain. From the inhabitants. From the animal and insect life. From the plants.

Agatha will know everything.


She'll take up residence in a church tower. From there she will do her scrying during preptime. She will prepare glyphs and runes to protect her. She will put up veils of illusion as to appear that all is well.

She will then use a viewing portal to cast a shapechanging spell on Wonder Man.


Since you won't let Agatha have her familiar... which you never see her without in print.... she will just have to get a new one.


She turns Wonder Man into a kitty.


Agatha Harkness Wins.



:ff: :ff: :ff:

See the problem with magic users is it's entirely speculative. I've looked over Agatha Harkness's history and I don't recall her ever turning anyone into a Kitty. Seems like a pretty big assumption that she can.

And assuming she can under normal circumstances, that would be matter transmutation.

Wonderman is made out of ionic energy, not matter. Thus would could reasonably be considered immune to matter transmutation.

We've seen her cast illusions, make force fields, and project energy and teleport. None of which are beyond Wonderman's ability to deal with.

Wonderman wins.

[Franklin Richards]

See the problem with magic users is it's entirely speculative. I've looked over Agatha Harkness's history and I don't recall her ever turning anyone into a Kitty. Seems like a pretty big assumption that she can.

And assuming she can under normal circumstances, that would be matter transmutation.

Wonderman is made out of ionic energy, not matter. Thus would could reasonably be considered immune to matter transmutation.

We've seen her cast illusions, make force fields, and project energy and teleport. None of which are beyond Wonderman's ability to deal with.

Wonderman wins.


Ionic Energy has nothing to do with Magic. It doesn't matter what Wonder Man is made of. Her magic has transformed others in the past in the Salem Seven. Shapechange Others is in her powerset as stated from the Marvel RPG.

Valiant attempt but Agatha's magic wins the day.


:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Vanguard07]

Transformed others who are made of matter, ie matter transmutation. (I know she turned sandman to stone but thats the only example i know of)
Ionic energy is not matter. Give an example of her or others' magic transforming an energy being, give some precedent of magic transformation being superior to standard matter transmutation or let it go.

It's easy to say that it doesnt matter what Wonderman is made of but there's no actual evidence to support that assumption. It remains purely speculative based solely on the weak "it's magic" argument. Give reasonable precedent or evidence.

Untill then I still say Wonderman wins.

[Midnight Ice]

Nightcrawler VS. Harvest

Nightcrawler will have a decent idea of what to expect from Harvest from the X-Men's history with the Phalanx. I can see Harvest taking control of some civilians and maybe some securoty cameras to find Nightcrawler, but even this is pointell because as soon as he is found, Nightcrawler can teleport to another location. Nightcrawler can easily hide in the shadows and on the side of the building.

I would imagine that Nightcrawler would bring at least one of his swords that he is often seen using and training with. Nightcrawler can easily use some quick teleports all around Harvest and get in many striked and swipes with the weapon.

Nightcrawler is simply too quick for Harvest to get his hands on him.

Winner: Nightcrawler

[Phaedrus45]

Nightcrawler VS. Harvest

Nightcrawler will have a decent idea of what to expect from Harvest from the X-Men's history with the Phalanx. I can see Harvest taking control of some civilians and maybe some securoty cameras to find Nightcrawler, but even this is pointell because as soon as he is found, Nightcrawler can teleport to another location. Nightcrawler can easily hide in the shadows and on the side of the building.

I would imagine that Nightcrawler would bring at least one of his swords that he is often seen using and training with. Nightcrawler can easily use some quick teleports all around Harvest and get in many striked and swipes with the weapon.

Nightcrawler is simply too quick for Harvest to get his hands on him.

Winner: Nightcrawler

Thanks to JH! He remembered the Phalanx story pretty well, and pointed out a problem in my opening debate:

I didn't want to say anything in the thread because it isn't my match, but you made an error in your debate between Harvest and Nightcrawler. I thought I'd point it out because information isn't the best for him. The earth based Phalanx at the time of the Phalanx Covenant couldn't figure out how to absorb mutants, which was why Harvest was studying the Generation X kids and the X-Men were just kept in pods. They were studying them to figure out how to do it. If memory serves, they came close to figuring it out but didn't quite get there. They were only able to get a few mutants due to specific reasons on an individual basis. So the comment you made toward the end that Nightcrawler could be absorbed or whatever by Harvest is most likely false.

Luckily, the assimilation of Nightcrawler was kind of an afterthought. There really are too many pluses for Harvest in this location. If it was somewhere else, I'd have a whole lot more to worry about, but as I pointed out in his bio, Harvest can Shapeshift, access the New York 2099 computers with the speed of thought, and create plasma-firing weapons out of his body. Add to this the fact he can get the people of New York to do his bidding..and, being able to use them to increase his power, Nightcrawler got the bad luck of the location draw.

The problem in the debate about Nightcrawler's fast abilities is that Harvest, also, can learn about Nightcrawler very easily in prep-time. He's one of the more well known X-Men, and his access to computers...plus, the fact the Phalanx has battled the X-Men, works to his advantage just as much as Nightcrawler knowing about the Phalanx. Plus, with this location and Harvest's shapechanging ability, Nightcrawler will not know to attack Harvest until it is too late.

Winner = Harvest

[Ahura Mazda]

Bracket 8

Match 1:

Firestar (FRANKLINRICHARDS) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestar)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/fire.jpg

vs.

Tana Nile (AHURAMAZDA) link (http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-tananile.html)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/tana.jpg


I was wondering how this match would go at first but after having read up on the charcaters I have confidence in mine.

Let's first look at Tana's powers:

Fighting Skills: Good hand-to-hand combatant, trained in Rigellian martial arts

Special Skills/Abilities: Highly skilled in infiltration of alien races and in terraforming planets

Superhuman physical powers: Ability to increase her own density at will, increasing her strength and resistance to physical injury

Superhuman Mental Powers: Psionic ability to control the mind of another humanoid or to override another humanoid's control of his or her voluntary muscles (through "mind thrust")

Special Limitations: None known

Source of Superhuman Powers: Alien attributes of the Rigellian race

Let's not forget that among her abilities is to camouflage herself as a human which she did for many years as a freind of Jane Foster.

Firestar's powers are well known to all of us who have ever read a comic book.

Now neither character will know much about each other but this work's to Tana's advantage. First' off, the name Firestar and an image of a woman wreathed in flames is quite indicative of someone who manipulates heat.

Now this is a populated area which will also work to Tana's adavantage. She will be camouflaged as a human in this area completely anonymous among the others. She will then use her menatl power to confuse Firestar through the control of other humans until she ends the game by taking over Firestar's mind.

Firestar will first not know who to attack and given her kindly heart she wil not want to harm the civilians. Tana will not have as many qualms. PLus Firestar is vulnerable to mind control as is shown the Marvel bio:

Empath used his power to control the emotions of others to force Firestar to fall in love with him so deeply that she would do anything he asked. He thus forced her to participate in the three Hellions' attack on the X-Men, whom Frost had taught Angelica to regard as enemies, at the military base at Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado. However, the X-Men defeated Firestar, Empath, and Roulette, and Thunderbird realized he was wrong to want vengeance on Xavier and the X-Men.

Firestar will be defeated here and unfortunately for her she has the disadavantage facing someone practiced to be disguised on any planet (she did it in Earth and in the Skrull Kingdom) in a populated area, in addition to being vulnerable to mind manipulaters like Tana Nile.

Winner - Tana Nile

[Ahura Mazda]

Bracket 8

Match 2:

Davos-Steel Phoenix (JEWISHHOBBIT) link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Serpent)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/davos.jpg

vs.

Tusk (AHURAMAZDA) link (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Tusk_(Earth-616))

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/tusk-1.jpg

This is a match up between two villains. One faces off against super powerred mutants, the other against Iron Fist.

Now Steel Pheonix is no slacker but he is written specifically for Iron fist in so far that he drains Iron Fist's energies to power himself therefore allowing himself to use the "Iron Fist". Without Iron Fist he does not have those powers and therefore is a supreme martial artist and nothing more.

Now both of these characters are not going to be able to use the prep time for much use. For one, neither will know anything about the other. The only thing Tusk will do is produce as many of his underlings as possible.

When they face off, Steel Pheonix will be at some point overwhelmed as he will be facing somone who is superhumanly strong and resistant to injury as well several underlings. He may be highly skilled but skills are not enough against overwhelming numbers. And let's not forget here he will not have any of the powers he has against Iron Fist (he drains Danny using a tatoo he has) apart from the steel pheonix blow.

Winner - Tusk

[Ahura Mazda]

Firestar vs Tana Nile - Rebuttal


Firestar is a hero.

Yes this is true which means we agree on something.


She'll spend the preptime warning all to stay away. She'll get civilians to evacuate. She'll then fly out to try to find the bad guy. When she does she'll nuke her and try to knock her unconscious. She'll try knocking debris on her. Lampposts ... Walls... Telephone poles.

One prep time is not in the battlefield so really she cannot do that. You know this very well and it has been discussed many times. And second, this is New York and you do not evacuate New York in 24 hours.

Anything to win the day. Firestar can roll with the punches pretty well because of her flight and zaps.

And don't forget...




She is resistant to mind control.

I have checked all her bios including Marvel's and nowhere does it say she can resist mind control. The only place I have seen that is that one sentence in Wikipedia which I find highly suspect especially as she was totally controlled by empath doing everything he said, so therefore I think that statement is completely false and written in by someone who thought to win an argument at some point in time.

First off, this place will be populated during the battle. Second, Firestar will not be able to pick out a disguised Tana Nile from the crowd. Third, she will fall to Tana Nile's mind control at some point which will put an end to this battle.


Tana Nile wins.

[Ahura Mazda]

Steel Phoenix Vs Tusk - Rebuttal


I like Tusk, but he's just kind of an aimless brute. He's never been shown to be particularly bright or even that great at physical combat. He is durable, yes, and at least a little superhumanly strong, but he's never done well in fights. He usually goes down easy to any X-Man that's fighting him. His gift of creating little versions of himself to fight independantly is a help but the most I've ever seen him create are 3, so it's not all that much help.

He is stronger then the steel pheonix as well as he will have the help of his underlings. Plus even if he has only produced theee in the past no where is it indicated he cannot produce more which he will do here.

Now Davos, in this tournament is the Steel Phoenix, which was who he was during the second arc of the Immortal Iron Fist, the 7 Cities of Heaven when he was at his most powerful (at least that I've seen). He has no superhuman strength or durability but his fighting is top notch and he is quick. He can keep up with Iron Fist and we saw in that same arc that he was able to beat the crap and seemingly nearly kill Tiger's Beautiful Daughter, who was very quick and life long trained in martial arts (think Katana from Mortal Combat... fans and all). His kicks and punches are laced with the Chi power of an ancient city and are powerful enough to render any of Tusk's dupes unconscious with one blow really, even with their durability.

If I read correctly, he drainned the pwoer off of iron Fist and used it to create his chi laced attacks. he may not have access to his Chi in this battle.

Tusk is strong, but he's never been shown to be particularly fast or bright, so in a fight against a seasoned veteran and highly trained and devious Davos, he really shouldn't stand much of a chance. It really shouldn't take more than a couple purple-lit blows for Tusk to break and go down a bloody mess. I honestly don't even see Tusk getting a hit in.

Davos will not be facing one opponent here but several. He does not have superhuman senses and will get tagged at some point by the larger tusk and his underlings. In addition, let us note that Tusk had a relatively poor showing against Wolverine who faces off against the Hulk (:whatever:) and a flly powerred Nate Grey not some non powerred martial artist.

Tusk will win this as Davos will not be as pwoerful here as he was when faicing against Danny.

Winner - Tusk

[Midnight Ice]

Thanks to JH! He remembered the Phalanx story pretty well, and pointed out a problem in my opening debate:



Luckily, the assimilation of Nightcrawler was kind of an afterthought. There really are too many pluses for Harvest in this location. If it was somewhere else, I'd have a whole lot more to worry about, but as I pointed out in his bio, Harvest can Shapeshift, access the New York 2099 computers with the speed of thought, and create plasma-firing weapons out of his body. Add to this the fact he can get the people of New York to do his bidding..and, being able to use them to increase his power, Nightcrawler got the bad luck of the location draw.

The problem in the debate about Nightcrawler's fast abilities is that Harvest, also, can learn about Nightcrawler very easily in prep-time. He's one of the more well known X-Men, and his access to computers...plus, the fact the Phalanx has battled the X-Men, works to his advantage just as much as Nightcrawler knowing about the Phalanx. Plus, with this location and Harvest's shapechanging ability, Nightcrawler will not know to attack Harvest until it is too late.


Thanks for clearing that up! I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to make a big deal about it since I wasn't 100% sure if he could get mutants or not.

Anyway, I don't really see any of the security or the civilians doing Harvest's bidding is a threat to Nightcrawler at all. Simply for the fact that Nightcrawler can teleport away from ANY of that. Especially since the population around is not super powered, they simply can't get to Nightcrawler if he teleports to the side of a building or to the roof.

Harvest does have his shape changing ability which is a plus, I will admit. Eventually though he will have to make a move against Nightcrawler by shooting a blast, thus revealing himself. Nightcrawler can even teleport around the battle area looking for Harvest or a disguised Harvest turning people. Once Harvest is found out, and he will be, Nightcrawler will make short work of him. he would use his swords, teleportation, and fighting/acrobatic skills to take Harvest out.

I'm not sure what is around in this 2099 city, but Nightcrawler could even teleport Harvest in front of a high speed train or 2099's equivilant of a train (if they exist then).

Winner-Nightcrawler

[Phaedrus45]

Thanks for clearing that up! I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to make a big deal about it since I wasn't 100% sure if he could get mutants or not.

Yes, big thanks to JH!

Anyway, I don't really see any of the security or the civilians doing Harvest's bidding is a threat to Nightcrawler at all. Simply for the fact that Nightcrawler can teleport away from ANY of that. Especially since the population around is not super powered, they simply can't get to Nightcrawler if he teleports to the side of a building or to the roof.

The problem is Nightcrawler has to know when someone is going to attack before he's going to teleport away. Nightcrawler is not a durable hero; his abilities are about his acrobatics and teleportation and some fighting skills. In the Marvel Handbook, his strength and durability is both at a "2" level. So, when you are sneak-attacked, it's not like trying to attack someone more powerful, like Colossus. Nightcrawler will go down.

Plus, as pointed out, Harvest has control of the computers, and can simply point out that a dangerous mutant was in New York's midst, sending the police after him.

Harvest does have his shape changing ability which is a plus, I will admit. Eventually though he will have to make a move against Nightcrawler by shooting a blast, thus revealing himself. Nightcrawler can even teleport around the battle area looking for Harvest or a disguised Harvest turning people. Once Harvest is found out, and he will be, Nightcrawler will make short work of him. he would use his swords, teleportation, and fighting/acrobatic skills to take Harvest out.

I'm not sure what is around in this 2099 city, but Nightcrawler could even teleport Harvest in front of a high speed train or 2099's equivilant of a train (if they exist then).


If this wasn't a populated city, I would be much more worried. It's just that with Nightcrawler and his durability, it would only take one big hit to eliminate him. Harvest doesn't even need to be the one to deliver the killing blow...but, if need be, he does have the plasma blasts that will at least render Nightcrawler unconscious.

Winner = Harvest

[JewishHobbit]

Rebuting the Davos Vs Tusk match, mixing both Ahura's opening debate and his rebuttal of mine, as they both cover the same things:


Now Steel Pheonix is no slacker but he is written specifically for Iron fist in so far that he drains Iron Fist's energies to power himself therefore allowing himself to use the "Iron Fist". Without Iron Fist he does not have those powers and therefore is a supreme martial artist and nothing more.

Normally, this would be true... however, this isn't Davos (Steel Serpant) Nope... this is Davos (Steel Pheonix)! What's the differance you ask? In the first 2 arcs of the current Immortal Iron Fist we were introduced to the Immortal Weapons. Iron Fist is the Immortal Weapon of the Mystical city of K'un Lun and got his chi from the dragon all Iron Fists must face to become an Iron Fist (to which Davos failed). However, Davos shows up and is the new Immortal Weapon of the Mystical city of K'un Zi, and he is granted his chi by Mother Crane. So, he no longer requires Iron Fist to steal Chi from, he has his own. And in this he is no longer just a martial artist. Examples:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Davos01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Davos03.jpg

I think this shows the power of his attacks and that he can damage Tusk's durable hide:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Davos02.jpg

Even teleportation:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Davos05.jpg

And he's obviously not against a low blow:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Davos04.jpg


He is stronger then the steel pheonix as well as he will have the help of his underlings. Plus even if he has only produced theee in the past no where is it indicated he cannot produce more which he will do here.


I only remember him producing up to 3, and if he's not been shown producing more then I think it's a stretch that he even can. And 3 aren't that much help for someone of Davos' calibre. 4 strong and durable thugs with little brains or fighting technique should barely be a challenge for Davos, a master at fighting that can kill with a single blow. Not to mention that during the time of those scans he was fighting 2 Iron Fists at once, and then Iron Fist along with Luke Cage, Misty Knight, and whoever the other chick is that roams with them all the time. Coleen something I think.

And note, at least 3 of those mentioned are superpowered.

Davos will not be facing one opponent here but several. He does not have superhuman senses and will get tagged at some point by the larger tusk and his underlings. In addition, let us note that Tusk had a relatively poor showing against Wolverine who faces off against the Hulk () and a flly powerred Nate Grey not some non powerred martial artist.

Sad to say, Tusk has had a pour showing in nearly every appearance he's ever been in. He's lost to Wolverine and Nate Grey, but he's also lost to Cyclops and other lesser fighters. Honestly, Davos' powers are more than enough to deal with someone of his durability, and since Tusk is fairly slow and his mini-me's just the same, Davos' speed should more than make up for Tusk's strength.

Let's face it, the only time Tusk was difficult was in the X-Men: Clone Wars video game.

Winner - Davos (Steel Phoenix)

[Ahura Mazda]

Rebuting the Davos Vs Tusk match

Normally, this would be true... however, this isn't Davos (Steel Serpant) Nope... this is Davos (Steel Pheonix)! What's the differance you ask? In the first 2 arcs of the current Immortal Iron Fist we were introduced to the Immortal Weapons. Iron Fist is the Immortal Weapon of the Mystical city of K'un Lun and got his chi from the dragon all Iron Fists must face to become an Iron Fist (to which Davos failed). However, Davos shows up and is the new Immortal Weapon of the Mystical city of K'un Zi, and he is granted his chi by Mother Crane. So, he no longer requires Iron Fist to steal Chi from, he has his own. And in this he is no longer just a martial artist.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Davos01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Davos03.jpg

This I consider as valid as he did do this the first time he did such a blow but lets note that just before he had his hand cut off and he is facing another martial artist like him not a super powerred being not to mention this is only one opponent.

I think this shows the power of his attacks and that he can damage Tusk's durable hide:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Davos02.jpg

Even teleportation:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Davos05.jpg

And he's obviously not against a low blow:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/Davos04.jpg

These images do not show much given that he was fighting Iron Fist at the time and as a result absorbed the Chi energy and used it for a variety of effects. Again, he is not facing Danny here and therefore will not be able to absorb his energy. That is why I am disregarding the images immediately above as they are not an indicator of anything besides he knows how to use Danny's powers well.




I only remember him producing up to 3, and if he's not been shown producing more then I think it's a stretch that he even can. And 3 aren't that much help for someone of Davos' calibre. 4 strong and durable thugs with little brains or fighting technique should barely be a challenge for Davos, a master at fighting that can kill with a single blow. Not to mention that during the time of those scans he was fighting 2 Iron Fists at once, and then Iron Fist along with Luke Cage, Misty Knight, and whoever the other chick is that roams with them all the time. Coleen something I think.

And note, at least 3 of those mentioned are superpowered.

I have not read that he is limited to three but I will honestly say that I never read up on the guy outside of what I have done here. Regarding the Steel's past battles, the ones with Iron Fist are pointless given he is particularly suited to fight him as it strengthens him. This is not the case here. The other fights are gainst people who have no relevant super powers. Tusk is super strong and quasi invulnerable plus he has cohorts which are all mentally linked.


Sad to say, Tusk has had a pour showing in nearly every appearance he's ever been in. He's lost to Wolverine and Nate Grey, but he's also lost to Cyclops and other lesser fighters. Honestly, Davos' powers are more than enough to deal with someone of his durability, and since Tusk is fairly slow and his mini-me's just the same, Davos' speed should more than make up for Tusk's strength.

Let's face it, the only time Tusk was difficult was in the X-Men: Clone Wars video game.

First off, Cyclops can blast his way through mountains. Wolverine can win against almost anyone because he is just written that way unfortunately. And Nate Grey is an omega level mutant so it is normal he would lose against him. He did not lose many other battles given he did not have that many appearances.

Plus video games are created with the collaboration of comic book writers so therefore there is a reason he was a boss in clone wars. Steel Serpent was not featured anywhere in Marvel Ultimate Alliance :p.



Winner - Tusk

[Franklin Richards]

Transformed others who are made of matter, ie matter transmutation. (I know she turned sandman to stone but thats the only example i know of)
Ionic energy is not matter. Give an example of her or others' magic transforming an energy being, give some precedent of magic transformation being superior to standard matter transmutation or let it go.

It's easy to say that it doesnt matter what Wonderman is made of but there's no actual evidence to support that assumption. It remains purely speculative based solely on the weak "it's magic" argument. Give reasonable precedent or evidence.

Untill then I still say Wonderman wins.


You seem to be under the impression that Agatha Harkness is the Molecule Man. She's not. She uses Witchcraft.

I know you think that "It's magic." is a weak argument, but that's exactly how it works. No scientific explanation is ever needed for magic. Magicians manipulate energy all the time anyway. A simple light spell for instance.

You may not be happy with magic but that's how it works. Turning people into pigs is second year magic school. I'm sure Agatha will have no problem getting a new kitty.


Harkness Wins.



:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Franklin Richards]

Firestar vs Tana Nile - Rebuttal




Yes this is true which means we agree on something.




One prep time is not in the battlefield so really she cannot do that. You know this very well and it has been discussed many times. And second, this is New York and you do not evacuate New York in 24 hours.


So where exactly is preptime? And since this battlefield is populated I assumed we could interact with them. Didn't know they were all frozen. And who says you have to evacuate all of NY. A few blocks will do. The police can help.



I have checked all her bios including Marvel's and nowhere does it say she can resist mind control. The only place I have seen that is that one sentence in Wikipedia which I find highly suspect especially as she was totally controlled by empath doing everything he said, so therefore I think that statement is completely false and written in by someone who thought to win an argument at some point in time.

Are you saying that I changed Wikii to help me fight this battle? **** you!



:ff: :ff: :ff:

[POWdER-man]

I think he was just implying that someone in the past had manipulated the information to win an internet argument. I don't think he was accusing you of anything.

[Franklin Richards]

Pretty ****ing vague. And insulting.


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[POWdER-man]

Not really. I read his argument before and didn't think for a minute he was accusing you.

[Phaedrus45]

I see that things might start getting a bit out of control. Hmmm...let me think.

One problem with Wiki is that many times inaccurate things are reported there, as I guess anybody and their dog can make entries. (It does show that the Firestar page was even edited today.) We've had this problem in seasons before, and we had a general rule that we haven't had to touch on this season.

Wiki is almost the bottom of the barrel of sites to quote, especially for the reason that many times we've seen false information on it's pages.

There are better sites, a few of which borrow word for word what's written in the Official Handbooks.

Official Handbooks are the best source for power sets and such...but, still not Word. Even the newest handbook is now 2 years old, and many new things have happened in between 2006 and today. (For example, the entry on Iron Man couldn't be used by me in my battle.)

Your best source is the comics themselves. They ALWAYS are the rule, with most recent being the best source.

...................................

Now, we do need to keep everything civil; and, as such, some things are getting a bit out of hand. Ahura probably should have just said, "I really need proof about this statement in Wiki, because it's not available anywhere else, and we've seen many times that Wiki has misinformation." I understand Franklin getting upset about the statement accusing someone of changing the entry, as if I read that, I would have felt the same way. As such, Franklin's entry went a bit too far, also.

So, let's take a breather...and, I would say it's best to find an example of where this statement is true in the comics...or, find another source to back it up.

What I will do when I get home is grab my handbooks and see if anything is said about it. I'll let you guys know what it says.

[Franklin Richards]

I was just rattling his cage. I didn't really mean for it to get out of hand.


I was just hackin' a bit. :word:



You posted before I was going to PM Ahura. Just to let him know. I was gonna keep you guys on the hook though. :D



:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Ahura Mazda]

Ok first before I even do a rebuttal, I am going to say I did not mean the statement as an insult to you Franklyn and if you think it did, I apologise. I wrote:

"The only place I have seen that is that one sentence in Wikipedia which I find highly suspect especially as she was totally controlled by empath doing everything he said, so therefore I think that statement is completely false and written in by someone who thought to win an argument at some point in time."

I thought I was clear by putting at some point in time that this does not cover the present but was referring to the past. But given your statement, I was apparently not and therfore I do my mea culpa.

In any case, I hope we can move on but don't ever say **** me again.

[Franklin Richards]

**** you!

:D


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Ahura Mazda]

Rebuttal

So where exactly is preptime? And since this battlefield is populated I assumed we could interact with them. Didn't know they were all frozen. And who says you have to evacuate all of NY. A few blocks will do. The police can help.


I am only going to rebut this as the rest is not really an argument.

Preptime and this can be confirmed by others, is in your locale and it is not in the battlefield interacting with people. Therefore she will start the battle with every area of New York populated.

Now, you then go off she just needs to clear a few blocks but tell me which blocks? How does she even recognise Tana, who will be disguised as she did with Jane Foster? She will look human in every way which does not even resemble that picture.

She has no way from singling Tana from the crowd and no defense against Tana who could mentally dominate her or even just surprise punch her knocking her out pretending to be .... for example..... a police officer who Firestar might ask to help.

[Ahura Mazda]

The :D kind of ruins the effect :p

[Midnight Ice]

Nightcrawler VS harvest Rebuttal

Plus, as pointed out, Harvest has control of the computers, and can simply point out that a dangerous mutant was in New York's midst, sending the police after him.

Yes and as soon as the Police found him, he would teleport to the side of another building. The police and other civilians just can't keep up with that, and neither can Harvest. Yes it may not take many blows from Harvest to put Nightcrawler down, but Nightcrawler wouldn't give him the opportunity. A fast barrage of strike from himself of one of his swords via multiple teleports should do the trick.

Winner- Nightcrawler

[Ahura Mazda]

Firestar vs Tana Nile - Clarification

Just to be very clear on what I mean by disguising herself:

Paraphernalia

Solar beam communicator device, worn on wrist, permitting instantaneous communication between Earth and Rigel via hyperspace transmissions. Tana's armor allows her to rearrange the molecular structure of her body and clothing to disguise herself as an Earthling and possibly other beings.

[JewishHobbit]

I'd like to point out a note about populated locations.

People aren't frozen or anything like that. They can be interacted with and they go about their normal business and will be freaked out if something odd or dangerous happens, etc. They're normal people to add an edge to the match. The only exception are police enforcers and such (in this situation, Public Eye). They won't just start going after you unless you provoke them and bring them into the battle per your debate. Don't assume they'll just attack you, they have to have a reason, such as mind control, clearance to command them, or even as much as forcing your opponant to kill or hurt one of them to bring the rest in. If you want them to be a part of your opponant's problem, make it one, but it won't happen automatically.

[Ahura Mazda]

I was just saying police officer because Franklin suggested he would go convince them to help him, but really it just means she could be disguised as anybody.

[JewishHobbit]

Whoop... almost missed this one.

Davos (Steel Phoenix) Vs Tusk Rebuttal


These images do not show much given that he was fighting Iron Fist at the time and as a result absorbed the Chi energy and used it for a variety of effects. Again, he is not facing Danny here and therefore will not be able to absorb his energy. That is why I am disregarding the images immediately above as they are not an indicator of anything besides he knows how to use Danny's powers well.

Nope... this is from Immortal Iron Fist issue 6 with the Crane Mother's chi (the girl swans), and nowhere in this issue did he absorb any of Iron Fist's chi. This has to be done by touching his little serpant chest tatoo to Iron Fist's Dragon chest tatoo. This was never done and this power was done completely with Davos' own chi might.

I have not read that he is limited to three but I will honestly say that I never read up on the guy outside of what I have done here. Regarding the Steel's past battles, the ones with Iron Fist are pointless given he is particularly suited to fight him as it strengthens him. This is not the case here. The other fights are gainst people who have no relevant super powers. Tusk is super strong and quasi invulnerable plus he has cohorts which are all mentally linked.

He is only strengthend when he steels Iron Fist's chi. That did not happen in any of these appearances (as they are all from the same issue, and it never happened in that issue). Everything shown is Davos' own might using Crane Mother's chi (by use of the Swan Ladies seen in the image where he teleports, and no, they don't need to be present for him to use his powers).

So thus, it shows he can take Iron Fist by his own might. He took on Luke Cage there. He massively broke that stone/metal (whatever it was) ground with one punch. I'm pretty sure that shows he can break Tusk's hide.... and again, none of this is with Iron Fist's chi.... it's his own.

First off, Cyclops can blast his way through mountains. Wolverine can win against almost anyone because he is just written that way unfortunately. And Nate Grey is an omega level mutant so it is normal he would lose against him. He did not lose many other battles given he did not have that many appearances.

He's pretty much lost every fight he's been in. It's hard to assume he's too much for a top notch life-long trained fighter when he's not even been shown beating a normal human level fighter. And as I've shown, Davos is far from just a baseline fighter. Unfortunately, Tusk is just a bad draw.

Plus video games are created with the collaboration of comic book writers so therefore there is a reason he was a boss in clone wars. Steel Serpent was not featured anywhere in Marvel Ultimate Alliance :p.


That's just because he would have made the inferior games systems of today explode by sheer awsomeness, and really, that would have been bad for sales. They can totally take the lameness of Tusk though. It's only common sense :)

Winner by sheer awsomeness - Davos

[Phaedrus45]

Closing Argument: Nightcrawler vs. Harvest

There are various factors in this match-up that work in Harvest's advantage, and most of these have to do with the location. Being in New York of 2099 (within a 2-mile radius), Harvest is able access the various networks within the city, controlling what he sees and what security precautions are taken. Also, since this location is occupied, he can control some of the people, using them for either further surveilliance or attacking Nightcrawler. Best of all, Harvest is a shapechanger, who will be unnoticable by Nightcrawler, until it is too late.

Both characters know of the other, because the Phalanx and the X-Men are linked in the X-Men comics. As such, Harvest needs one good sneaky shot to take Nightcrawler out...and, when a location is as occupied as this one is, it only stands in Harvest's favor. Nightcrawler is a skilled fighter; but, he's not a durable skilled fighter. It's going to take just one fire of Harvest's plasma weapon to win this match.

Winner = Harvest