Discussion: Rebuilding The World Trade Center

[Timstuff]

What we need is for a lot of white non muslim American liberals to protest outside that church to help send the message to these people that not all Americans are like this.

Do you honestly think that makes any difference? No-one over there will take notice about it whatsoever, because for them the very fact that it's legal to burn a quran in the US is an indictment of our entire culture. You are approaching this the entirely wrong way, because they do NOT think about these things the same way as they do. "Not all Americans are like that!" is not an acceptable answer, because in their opinion it's unacceptable for the disrespect of Islam to be tolerated at all. The only acceptable resolution to this for them would be the public execution of everyone involved, because that's how they've been trained to think since they were born. Seeing a bunch of white liberals protesting it wouldn't do jack diddly, because it's still Americans burning a Quran, and our constitution does not allow them to be stopped or punished over it.

[A&W]

Do you honestly think that makes any difference? No-one over there will take notice about it whatsoever, because for them the very fact that it's legal to burn a quran in the US is an indictment of our entire culture. You are approaching this the entirely wrong way, because they do NOT think about these things the same way as they do. "Not all Americans are like that!" is not an acceptable answer, because in their opinion it's unacceptable for the disrespect of Islam to be tolerated at all. The only acceptable resolution to this for them would be the public execution of everyone involved, because that's how they've been trained to think since they were born. Seeing a bunch of white liberals protesting it wouldn't do jack diddly, because it's still Americans burning a Quran, and our constitution does not allow them to be stopped or punished over it.
I think you are stereotyping all muslims and Afghanis and it is probably only accurate for some of them. Not all of them are the same just like not all of us are the same.

[Timstuff]

I am talking about the protestors. If they are angry enough about what one small group of Americans is doing to call for our President's death, then they are exactly what I described.

[A&W]

My mistake. Yes most of them are exactly as you described. As one of them said to a reporter "the entire United States." However many people of Afghanistan lean towards that line of thinking who are not in that protest and some of them might be pursuadable.

[Midnyte_Sun]

And then, it's off to Achmed's Cantina for their wonderful selection of 72 virgin cocktails!

No, its Ramadan so not until after the sun sets. :word:

[Midnyte_Sun]

I think you are stereotyping all muslims and Afghanis and it is probably only accurate for some of them. Not all of them are the same just like not all of us are the same.

That's true. It was only a few hundred people. It wasn't like mass protests in every city like it was during the Blackwater incident where they literally ran over pedestrians.

[Marx]

'GROUND ZERO MOSQUE' IMAM TO APPEAR ON 'LARRY KING LIVE'
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/07/imam-behind-islamic-center-near-ground-zero-to-break-his-silence/

This should be interesting. :up:

[MessiahDecoy123]

It's sad that 70 percent of Americans oppose a mosque near ground zero.

sad and scary.

[Schlosser85]

Preacher 'Prays' About His Decision to Burn Qurans


http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/preacher-terry-jones-prays-about-his-decision-to-burn-quran/19623554

International Burn a Koran Day? :doh:

Jones and his congregation don't have a clue what Christianity is about.

[Alex The Great]

It's sad that 70 percent of Americans oppose a mosque near ground zero.

sad and scary.
It's a tough thing really. I can see both sides of the argument


But now it's turned into the typical "all muslims are terrorists!" **** those protesters are going on about. Build the ****ing thing

[Kane52630]

It's sad that 70 percent of Americans oppose a mosque near ground zero.

sad and scary.

but then again its a poll done by a cable network, polls mean s*** because not every single American was polled.

[HulkofSteel]

It's sad that 70 percent of Americans oppose a mosque near ground zero.

sad and scary.

What is sad about it? What is scary about it?

:bh: :supes:

[Marx]

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/preacher-terry-jones-prays-about-his-decision-to-burn-quran/19623554

International Burn a Koran Day? :doh:

Jones and his congregation don't have a clue what Christianity is about.

:facepalm:

[Hobgoblin]

I wonder what Jones and Co would say to this:
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq188/mrdamntn/junk/KoranJPII1.jpg

Pope JP II kissing the Koran after meeting Patriarch Raphael I of Iraq. Then again, they probably dont care for Catholics, either. :o

[MessiahDecoy123]

What is sad about it? What is scary about it?

:bh: :supes:
It's sad because people can't tell the difference between muslims and muslims extremists. It's sad because the freedom of religion is being ignored and replaced with blind anti-muslim fervor.


Scary because that 70 percent is enough to control our democracy and determine our future.

[Alex The Great]

I just fear if this thing gets built, some crazy white guy will storm in and shoot up the joint.

[Schlosser85]

What is sad about it? What is scary about it?


It's sad that so many Americans are ignorant, perhaps?

Sad that a majority of the American people allow themselves to be governed by their abject fear?

The home of the brave, indeed. :whatever:

Start showing it instead of talking about it and stop being led like sheep at every turn.

[Kane52630]

I just fear if this thing gets built, some crazy white guy will storm in and shoot up the joint.

and for some twisted and crazed way, it will be blamed on Muslims.

[Marx]

What is sad about it? What is scary about it?

It's sad because people can't tell the difference between muslims and muslims extremists. It's sad because the freedom of religion is being ignored and replaced with blind anti-muslim fervor.


Scary because that 70 percent is enough to control our democracy and determine our future.

It's sad that so many Americans are ignorant, perhaps?

Sad that a majority of the American people allow themselves to be governed by their abject fear?

The home of the brave, indeed. :whatever:

Start showing it instead of talking about it and stop being led like sheep at every turn.

Exactly guys.

[mclay18]

I know a lot of you've heard about it, but even the Vatican is denouncing the bonfire of the Qu'ran in Florida.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/quran_burning_vatican;_ylt=AtcNpnBGEGtxSRaFCYzhfD. s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNwYmVidDcwBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwOTA 4L3F1cmFuX2J1cm5pbmdfdmF0aWNhbgRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wd WxhcgRjcG9zAzUEcG9zAzIEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9 oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawN2YXRpY2FuYnVybmk-

This guy is perfectly entitled to his First Amendment rights, but he really needs to think this over before doing this. When exercising your right to free speech could possibly make Afghanistan even worse -- that's something you don't take lightly.

[HulkofSteel]

It's sad because people can't tell the difference between muslims and muslims extremists. It's sad because the freedom of religion is being ignored and replaced with blind anti-muslim fervor.


Scary because that 70 percent is enough to control our democracy and determine our future.

I don't think people are that ignorant that they can't tell the difference between muslims and muslim extremists. And nobody that I know of is trying to suppress anyone's religion. Legally, the mosque can be built where they have proposed. It's the appropriateness of the location that is the issue.

Most of the opposers to the builing of the mosque at ground zero do not hate Muslims and are not trying to prevent them from worshiping. They simply do not think it is appropriate to build a mosque so near to the site that saw the deaths of thousands of Americans at the hand of Muslim extremists.

Now if all of these opponents of the mosque are against every attempt to build a mosque then you have a case for anti-Muslim sentiment. But that is far from reality here.

That 70 percent is enough to control our democracy is not scary. 30 percent controlling a democracy is scary. What would you suggest in place of a democracy?

[Gamma Ray]

but then again its a poll done by a cable network, polls mean s*** because not every single American was polled.


You don't understand how polling and statistics work, do you? :whatever:



I don't see what the uproar about Quaran burning is. Sure it's stupid, but as Americans they have every right to do so.

[Marx]

I don't think people are that ignorant that they can't tell the difference between muslims and muslim extremists. And nobody that I know of is trying to suppress anyone's religion. Legally, the mosque can be built where they have proposed. It's the appropriateness of the location that is the issue.

Most of the opposers to the builing of the mosque at ground zero do not hate Muslims and are not trying to prevent them from worshiping. They simply do not think it is appropriate to build a mosque so near to the site that saw the deaths of thousands of Americans at the hand of Muslim extremists.

Now if all of these opponents of the mosque are against every attempt to build a mosque then you have a case for anti-Muslim sentiment. But that is far from reality here.

That 70 percent is enough to control our democracy is not scary. 30 percent controlling a democracy is scary. What would you suggest in place of a democracy?
It's still equating all muslims with muslim extremists and that is not right. If the islamic cultural center is moved 'because it's too close' to ground zero...then how far should it be moved? How far away is an 'appropriate distance?'

[Kane52630]

You don't understand how polling and statistics work, do you? :whatever:


yeah I do how they work, its f****** stupid how its setup


I don't see what the uproar about Quaran burning is. Sure it's stupid, but as Americans they have every right to do so.

:whatever:

listen to some CeeLo sir. that song is just for you.

[Gamma Ray]

yeah I do how they work, its f****** stupid how its setup



LOL! Derrr, math is so stoopid. Why doesn't it just go to hell, right?


:whatever:

listen to some CeeLo sir. that song is just for you.


I'm sorry, I thought America had a Constitution with Amendments. :whatever:

[Kane52630]

LOL! Derrr, math is so stoopid. Why doesn't it just go to hell, right?


ya cuz u no I Is stoopid and so is rrrr math

:dry:



I'm sorry, I thought America had a Constitution with Amendments. :whatever:
The First Amendment comes down to this: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right
to say it. It does not come down to: The First Amendment gives me the
right to shout the N-word 11 times on the radio to an inoffensive black woman, and when you attack me for saying it, you are in violation of my First Amendment rights.

[Marx]

Let's all take it down a notch.

[Marx]

VATICAN SPEAKS OUT AGAINST KORAN BURNING
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Vatican-Condemns-Planned-Quran-Burning-in-US-102440544.html

...so the military, state department officials, prominent muslims, the pastor's former church, and now the Vatican have all called on the pastor not to do this...yet he ignorantly marches on.

:facepalm:

[Paroxysm]

He's trying to make a name for himself.

[Schlosser85]

In the name of honesty, he needs to STOP ASSOCIATING HIMSELF WITH CHRISTIANITY, because it's being given a bad name, yet again, by someone who's not even following it.

[A&W]

Most of the opposers to the builing of the mosque at ground zero do not hate Muslims and are not trying to prevent them from worshiping. They simply do not think it is appropriate to build a mosque so near to the site that saw the deaths of thousands of Americans at the hand of Muslim extremists.

If an african American rapes a girl and kills her does that mean that African Americans can't move into a home and build a family too close to the crime scene?

What do these Muslims have to do with the Muslims that attacked us? Absolutely nothing unless you group them together and in that case, you are unable to tell the difference between a Muslim and a Muslim extremist.

If these muslims don't have anything to do with the muslims that attacked us that it shouldn't make any difference where they build it. You say you can tell the difference between them, yet you still connect them to the terrorists.

[Wylie Times]

Most of the opposers to the builing of the mosque at ground zero do not hate Muslims and are not trying to prevent them from worshiping. They simply do not think it is appropriate to build a mosque so near to the site that saw the deaths of thousands of Americans at the hand of Muslim extremists.


So the Muslim who were American that died that day don't count?

[Marx]

In the name of honesty, he needs to STOP ASSOCIATING HIMSELF WITH CHRISTIANITY, because it's being given a bad name, yet again, by someone who's not even following it.

In my opinion, this pastor is the definition of delusional.

[Schlosser85]

If an african American rapes a girl and kills her does that mean that African Americans can't move into a home and build a family too close to the crime scene?

What do these Muslims have to do with the Muslims that attacked us? Absolutely nothing unless you group them together and in that case, you are unable to tell the difference between a Muslim and a Muslim extremist.

If these muslims don't have anything to do with the muslims that attacked us that it shouldn't make any difference where they build it. You say you can tell the difference between them, yet you still connect them to the terrorists.

This is my feeling as well. I don't see why one should have anything to do with the other unless you think all Muslims are responsible for 9/11. Otherwise, there's no conflict.

In my opinion, this pastor is the definition of delusional.

In the name of honesty, these people with their "National Burn a Koran Day" posters and the other people with their "God hates f--s" signs, and just the people in general who preach hatred against homosexuals and/or Muslims need to stop dragging Christianity through the mud with them, because Christianity has nothing to do with it. How can it, when their actions are 100% CONTRARY to Jesus' teachings?

They need to stop calling themselves Christians, because....they simply aren't. And there are true Christians out there who don't deserve to be lumped in with these lunatics by ignorant haters just like moderate Muslims don't need to be lumped in with the extremists who destroyed the WTC.

[Marx]

In the name of honesty, these people with their "National Burn a Koran Day" posters and the other people with their "God hates f--s" signs, and just the people in general who preach hatred against homosexuals and/or Muslims need to stop dragging Christianity through the mud with them, because Christianity has nothing to do with it. How can it, when their actions are 100% CONTRARY to Jesus' teachings?

They need to stop calling themselves Christians, because....they simply aren't. And there are true Christians out there who don't deserve to be lumped in with these lunatics by ignorant haters just like moderate Muslims don't need to be lumped in with the extremists who destroyed the WTC.

Well said man.

[Alex The Great]

Great post, man :up:

[chaseter]

This idiot, like Jeremiah Wright, Pat Robertson, etc. are giving Christians a bad name and making Christianity look bad to Muslims just like a few extremist Muslims are making Islam look bad to these people. These people are not intelligent in the slightest.

[Marx]

SARAH PALIN CONDEMNS PASTOR'S KORAN BURNING
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/08/sarah-palin-burning-quran-antithetical_n_709877.html

You know it's bad when Sarah Palin starts speaking against your extremist views. :wow:

[Wylie Times]

SARAH PALIN CONDEMNS PASTOR'S KORAN BURNING
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/08/sarah-palin-burning-quran-antithetical_n_709877.html

You know it's bad when Sarah Palin starts speaking against your extremist views. :wow:


I was SOOOO close to giving her credit until I read:

"People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation -- much like building a mosque at Ground Zero."

[Marx]

Yeah...that does kind of take away from her point. I still think it's big of her to actually condemn this in any form...especially after her 2008 election campaign fearmongering.

[Wylie Times]

Yeah...that does kind of take away from her point. I still think it's big of her to actually condemn this in any form...especially after her 2008 election campaign fearmongering.

I'm positive you wouldn't have seen her touch this subject if not for Petraeus hadn't come out and said it would endanger people overseas.

[Alex The Great]

I nearly fell off my chair when I agreed to her. But then I read the mosque bit.

Balance has been restored to the universe

[Marx]

I'm positive you wouldn't have seen her touch this subject if not for Petraeus hadn't come out and said it would endanger people overseas.

Sadly, I think you may be right about that.

[Schlosser85]

"People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation -- much like building a mosque at Ground Zero."

Which no one is doing :whatever:

[Alex The Great]

It's near Ground Zero

Not at Ground Zero


Get it right damn it :cmad:

[Marx]

It's also not a mosque.

It's an islamic cultural center that includes prayer rooms.

[Schlosser85]

Palin either doesn't know that, or doesn't care. Frankly I have zero problem believing either one.

[Alex The Great]

It's also not a mosque.

It's an islamic cultural center that includes prayer rooms.
It also has a praying room for Jews I think. Also a Christian one I think

[Marx]

It also has a praying room for Jews I think. Also a Christian one I think

Yeah, I heard that as well.

[Alex The Great]

Yeah, I heard that as well.
Yeah, and i'm sure all 3 lost people on 9/11, so there shouldn't be a big deal

But sadly, people are focusing on the muslim part....

[Marx]

A good conversation about the Florida Pastor planning to burn Qurans...

Florida Pastor To Burn Qurans On 9/11
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=341525

[Paroxysm]

Qur'an burning cancelled, Ground Zero mosque will be moved (http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/world/burning+cancelled+Ground+Zero+mosque+will+moved/3500632/story.html)

I hope you ****ers are happy, religious freedom my ass. :cmad:

[Prison Mike]

Great. The crazy pastor guy wins.

[Pink Ranger]

I hope the "mosque" moving part is false. An inbred preacher with a congregation of 50 should not have the power to steer a legal real estate development that would impacts thousands.

[Alex The Great]

I don't think they've said the mosque will be moved. I haven't seen that yet

[Kane52630]

yeah the reports are saying that he never talked with the pastor on moving the Mosque

[Marx]

It looks like any 'agreement' to move the islamic cultural center is false.

[Alex The Great]

I hope so. This guy is just trying to go out with a bang

[Matt]

Donald Trump is offering to buy the land where the Mosque is being planned at 25 % above the price that was paid for it.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/new.york.trump.community.center/#fbid=ofRgLHZVg2r&wom=false

Hisham Elzanaty is only one of eight investors, but his stake in the land is apparently big enough that Trump owning it would be enough to at least make a huge obstacle for the Mosque. Apparently Elzanaty has already stated he will sell his stake if the offer is good enough.

[Trainwreck2100]

Donald Trump is offering to buy the land where the Mosque is being planned at 25 % above the price that was paid for it.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/new.york.trump.community.center/#fbid=ofRgLHZVg2r&wom=false

Hisham Elzanaty is only one of eight investors, but his stake in the land is apparently big enough that Trump owning it would be enough to at least make a huge obstacle for the Mosque. Apparently Elzanaty has already stated he will sell his stake if the offer is good enough.
dude declined the offer

[Matt]

Did he? I doubt we've heard the end of it. Trump will find an investor who will sell to him. Either that or make an offer that Elzanaty can't refuse. Trump is not a man who takes no for an answer.

[Bathead]

I don't think they've said the mosque will be moved. I haven't seen that yet

They haven't agreed to move it. The Muslim leaders involved said they have only agreed to discuss the matter.

[maenalus]

In the name of honesty, he needs to STOP ASSOCIATING HIMSELF WITH CHRISTIANITY, because it's being given a bad name, yet again, by someone who's not even following it.

How is burning the Koran unChristian? If Jones believes that the Koran is an evil book, and wants to stage a modest, symbolic protest of it, than by all means he should. And it would be modest because he'd just be burning a copy/copies of the thing, not all the copies in the world. Someone destroying the only copy of a book or any important or precious piece of historical importance, now that would be an outrage. But a non-Muslim taking a public stand against the Koran, a book that calls for his subjugation or death; that's no more offensive than Jews burning a copy Mien Kampf.

In this whole affair, the only people deserving of our contempt (besides the Muslims threatening violence) is, not Terry Jones, but our leaders in the West cowering before the threats of violence from the Muslim world. Presidents, Prime-Ministers, Generals, Senators, even the Pope, have, in unison, just lectured us that we must live our lives in accord with Muslim standards or face death. They are making Muslim punishment and retribution an official institution of our societies. And they did it all with the most disgusting self-righteousness. Proudly touting their abject cowardice as their most glorious attribute.

[Carcharodon]

I think most people are ignorant of the fact that the 9/11 attacks had very, very little to do with religion. People try to frame this as a conflict between religions, but while religion is certainly a factor, it's nowhere near the whole picture.

This misguided idiot is looking at this whole thing all wrong. Most people are.

[TimBisley]

How is burning the Koran unChristian? If Jones believes that the Koran is an evil book, and wants to stage a modest, symbolic protest of it, than by all means he should. And it would be modest because he'd just be burning a copy/copies of the thing, not all the copies in the world. Someone destroying the only copy of a book or any important or precious piece of historical importance, now that would be an outrage. But a non-Muslim taking a public stand against the Koran, a book that calls for his subjugation or death; that's no more offensive than Jews burning a copy Mien Kampf.

In this whole affair, the only people deserving of our contempt (besides the Muslims threatening violence) is, not Terry Jones, but our leaders in the West cowering before the threats of violence from the Muslim world. Presidents, Prime-Ministers, Generals, Senators, even the Pope, have, in unison, just lectured us that we must live our lives in accord with Muslim standards or face death. They are making Muslim punishment and retribution an official institution of our societies. And they did it all with the most disgusting self-righteousness. Proudly touting their abject cowardice as their most glorious attribute.

This is pretty outrageous. The Bible is just as brutal, sexist and filled with calls for violence as the Koran. But you know what, most Christians don't really follow those archaic rules that say a child should be put to death for disobeying a parent, just as most Muslims don't follow those "death to the infidel" rules. There are "Christians" that are just as crazy as these middle eastern extremists, but they are less willing to blow themselves up. Having running water, thousands of tv channels, the internet, and fast food joints on every corner tend to make people less willing to strap a bomb to their chests.

[Alex The Great]

Isn't there a part in the Bible where lots of babies are killed and it is justified by God?

... Yay Christianity!

[TripleR]

Isn't there a part in the Bible where lots of babies are killed and it is justified by God?

... Yay Christianity!

In something like 6th or 7th grade (Catholic school) I was flipping through the Bible and found that part. I questioned it, and was told not to bring up stuff like that or I'd be sent to the principal's office. I decided not to get myself into trouble, but I really wanted to say "Okay, she's a nun, maybe she can explain it to me."

[DACrowe]

There is intolerance and extremism in all ancient religious texts (or at least the Torah, Bible and Quran). Seeking moral high ground on that is naive.

With that said, I do think Bloomberg best articulated crazy attention whore Jones' Constitutional right to burn the Quran. He is allowed to. And while I can see why some would be so frustrated that the leaders condemning his Constitutional right...

But to be fair all of the (POTUS, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, General in command of Afghanistan troops) are the ones who are responsible for the execution of the war and the safety of our troops. I do wish that they more clearly articulated the Constitutionality of this action. However, it would be insane for them to support or not weigh in on a hateful, bigotted action that will lead to the deaths of our soldiers.

And unlike other presidents they are not restricting JOnes' (awful) free speech. He can burn the Qurans if he chooses. But, they are instead using the bully pulpit to let him and all the bigots out there the consequences of their actions (dead Americans). Should Americans be killed because of this? No. Will they be though? Yes. So of course, if you are interested in protecting the security of Americans and the safety of our soldiers in Afghanistan, you'd strongly oppose this stupidity.

Oh and to Fox News and their ilk out there: Building a religious center to worship holy books is NOT morally equivalent to burning them!

It is why I strongly oppose moving this mosque in response to Jones's request. This would say basically an act of hate speech can be used as a ransom demand on other people and therefore allows people to think building a semi-mosque is equivalent to burning someone's religious book, thus implying that Islam and all its followers are inherently as hateful and the redneck prejudice that "Muslim=terrorist" will be given validity by this. That cannot happen.

[Matt]

It was still a waste of time for the Secretary of Defense to personally call this guy. He's a nut job with a 30 person congregation. Having Gates call him is giving into his ridiculous demands and giving him credibility.

[Marx]

How is burning the Koran unChristian? If Jones believes that the Koran is an evil book, and wants to stage a modest, symbolic protest of it, than by all means he should. And it would be modest because he'd just be burning a copy/copies of the thing, not all the copies in the world. Someone destroying the only copy of a book or any important or precious piece of historical importance, now that would be an outrage. But a non-Muslim taking a public stand against the Koran, a book that calls for his subjugation or death; that's no more offensive than Jews burning a copy Mien Kampf.

In this whole affair, the only people deserving of our contempt (besides the Muslims threatening violence) is, not Terry Jones, but our leaders in the West cowering before the threats of violence from the Muslim world. Presidents, Prime-Ministers, Generals, Senators, even the Pope, have, in unison, just lectured us that we must live our lives in accord with Muslim standards or face death. They are making Muslim punishment and retribution an official institution of our societies. And they did it all with the most disgusting self-righteousness. Proudly touting their abject cowardice as their most glorious attribute.

This is pretty outrageous. The Bible is just as brutal, sexist and filled with calls for violence as the Koran. But you know what, most Christians don't really follow those archaic rules that say a child should be put to death for disobeying a parent, just as most Muslims don't follow those "death to the infidel" rules. There are "Christians" that are just as crazy as these middle eastern extremists, but they are less willing to blow themselves up. Having running water, thousands of tv channels, the internet, and fast food joints on every corner tend to make people less willing to strap a bomb to their chests.

To piggyback what Tim has said, I believe this florida pastor is an absolute disgrace to christianity. What he, and alot of hardcore believers subscribe to, is the exact opposite of Christ's teachings. The core of Christ's teachings were love and non-judgement. This man preaches nothing but hate and intolerance while hiding behind a distorted view of christianity.

[Midnyte_Sun]

How is burning the Koran unChristian? If Jones believes that the Koran is an evil book, and wants to stage a modest, symbolic protest of it, than by all means he should. And it would be modest because he'd just be burning a copy/copies of the thing, not all the copies in the world. Someone destroying the only copy of a book or any important or precious piece of historical importance, now that would be an outrage. But a non-Muslim taking a public stand against the Koran, a book that calls for his subjugation or death; that's no more offensive than Jews burning a copy Mien Kampf.

In this whole affair, the only people deserving of our contempt (besides the Muslims threatening violence) is, not Terry Jones, but our leaders in the West cowering before the threats of violence from the Muslim world. Presidents, Prime-Ministers, Generals, Senators, even the Pope, have, in unison, just lectured us that we must live our lives in accord with Muslim standards or face death. They are making Muslim punishment and retribution an official institution of our societies. And they did it all with the most disgusting self-righteousness. Proudly touting their abject cowardice as their most glorious attribute.

If a Pastor has a problem with Islam, or an Imam has a problem with Christianity, they should discuss it amongst themselves reasonably and in a civilized way. There are dozens upon dozens of interfaith groups bridging the faiths in peace. Burning someone's holy book; desecrating it for the sake of 'revenge' or associating over a billion people with the few that committed 9/11 is plain ignorance.

[Dr. Evil]

Did he? I doubt we've heard the end of it. Trump will find an investor who will sell to him. Either that or make an offer that Elzanaty can't refuse. Trump is not a man who takes no for an answer.

That's what makes Trump a rich bastard.

[Marx]

There are some people in this world who cannot be bought, bullied, or reasoned with... [/Alfred Pennyworth]

:oldrazz:

[chaseter]

To piggyback what Tim has said, I believe this florida pastor is an absolute disgrace to christianity. What he, and alot of hardcore believers subscribe to, is the exact opposite of Christ's teachings. The core of Christ's teachings were love and non-judgement. This man preaches nothing but hate and intolerance while hiding behind a distorted view of christianity.

Lets go kill people who don't believe what we believe! Something sadly all religions share when it comes to the fringe nutjobs.

[Prison Mike]

It was still a waste of time for the Secretary of Defense to personally call this guy. He's a nut job with a 30 person congregation. Having Gates call him is giving into his ridiculous demands and giving him credibility.

I agree 100%

There are some people in this world who cannot be bought, bullied, or reasoned with... [/Alfred Pennyworth]

:oldrazz:

Some men just want to watch the world Quran burn.

[Dr. Evil]

There are some people in this world who cannot be bought, bullied, or reasoned with... [/Alfred Pennyworth]

:oldrazz:

Donald Trump will try though. Like Matt says, he never takes no for an answer.

[VampElvis]

This is pretty outrageous. The Bible is just as brutal, sexist and filled with calls for violence as the Koran. But you know what, most Christians don't really follow those archaic rules that say a child should be put to death for disobeying a parent, just as most Muslims don't follow those "death to the infidel" rules. There are "Christians" that are just as crazy as these middle eastern extremists, but they are less willing to blow themselves up. ......

I think the obvious oversight here is the "New Covenant" vs the "Old Covenant" concept. The things you reference are Old Covenant principles that were obsoleted with the coming of the Messiah the beginning of the New Covenant, and the birth of the actual Christian faith. While many old Covenant teachings are still very useful to aid one in living a life that tries to encourage fellowship with God, the adherence to them as a requisite to salvation was rendered invalid by the crucifiction and resurrection, so quite rightly Christians do not live according to these strictures.

I think what we don't see in the comparison of the two faiths is a similar "evolution" , for lack of a better word, in the Muslim faith and holy texts. I don't know if there is a simlar transformation as there is in Christianity. However I freely admit my knowledge of Islamic teachings is almost nil and I could very easily be incorrect in this assertion. If I am, please correct me (via PM if you think it would derail the thread).

[maenalus]

This is pretty outrageous. The Bible is just as brutal, sexist and filled with calls for violence as the Koran. But you know what, most Christians don't really follow those archaic rules that say a child should be put to death for disobeying a parent,

No Christians follow that rule. Christians have never believed they were bound by such Old Covenant laws on things like that, circumcision, kosher food, etc.

just as most Muslims don't follow those "death to the infidel" rules.

Most Muslims don't need to be willing to, or even approve of, commiting acts of violence for their group, as a whole, to pose the threat of violent jihad to us non-Muslims. Where Muslims go, it's a safe bet there will be those pushing for sharia and committing acts violence against infidels.


There are "Christians" that are just as crazy as these middle eastern extremists, but they are less willing to blow themselves up. Having running water, thousands of tv channels, the internet, and fast food joints on every corner tend to make people less willing to strap a bomb to their chests.

It's a myth that Muslim terrorism is the result of poverty, lack of education and opportunity, and oppression. All of the Muslims who have engaged terrorism against the West; Faisal Shahzad, Nidal Hasan, Umar Abdulmutallab, Carlos Bledsoe, just to name the more recent ones, just to name the most recent ones, have come from wealthy, educated backgrounds.

[Midnyte_Sun]

No Christians follow that rule. Christians have never believed they were bound by such Old Covenant laws on things like that, circumcision, kosher food, etc.



Most Muslims don't need to be willing to, or even approve of, commiting acts of violence for their group, as a whole, to pose the threat of violent jihad to us non-Muslims. Where Muslims go, it's a safe bet there will be those pushing for sharia and committing acts violence against infidels.




It's a myth that Muslim terrorism is the result of poverty, lack of education and opportunity, and oppression. All of the Muslims who have engaged terrorism against the West; Faisal Shahzad, Nidal Hasan, Umar Abdulmutallab, Carlos Bledsoe, just to name the more recent ones, just to name the most recent ones, have come from wealthy, educated backgrounds.

Islamophobic maybe? So there all undercover murderers waiting to strike? When you take religions out of context you are bound to feed your phobic delusions.

You must have amnesia because just around 70 years ago the Germans were wiping out 'inferior races by the millions. Even the liberal Dutch were committing war crimes in Indonesia 60 years ago that most people seem to forget. Lebanon Shatila and Sabra massacres that led to the massacre of over 3,000 innocent Palestinian and Lebanese civilians. To go further back in history the Europeans were making deals with the Mongols who ravaged the Muslim world leading to the death of some 30,000,000 people, and that's a conservative estimate. Russians killed millions of its own people, send countless to Siberia and ethnically cleansed areas in the Muslim Caucasus who were in open rebellion; thats not including the recent wars in Chechnya and Afghanistan, of whom the latter cost 1.5 Million lives and left much of the rural area depopulated, mine-riddled, and poisoned. Hell, the French killed 2-4 Million of their own people during the Catholic and Protestant wars. I won't even go into Communism and the effects of bad Capitalism on 3rd world countries.

Most conflicts in the Middle East are due to bad politics. More precisely, bad post-colonial politics. Islam has lived and co-existed with other religions in the past and will continue to do so no matter what some Islamophobes might think.

[maenalus]

And unlike other presidents they are not restricting JOnes' (awful) free speech. He can burn the Qurans if he chooses. But, they are instead using the bully pulpit to let him and all the bigots out there the consequences of their actions (dead Americans). Should Americans be killed because of this? No. Will they be though? Yes. So of course, if you are interested in protecting the security of Americans and the safety of our soldiers in Afghanistan, you'd strongly oppose this stupidity.

Such a strange argument. Citizens back on the homefront shouldn't insult the enemy, because it could make the battlefield more dangerous for the troops.


It is why I strongly oppose moving this mosque in response to Jones's request. This would say basically an act of hate speech can be used as a ransom demand on other people and therefore allows people to think building a semi-mosque is equivalent to burning someone's religious book, thus implying that Islam and all its followers are inherently as hateful and the redneck prejudice that "Muslim=terrorist" will be given validity by this. That cannot happen.

If you think Rauf shouldn't move his building because it would be a victory for "rednecks" and "hate speech", shouldn't you be all the more concerned that people the world over are calling on Jones to cave to jihadist violence? Can that be allowed to happen?

[Schlosser85]

Citizens back on the homefront shouldn't insult the enemy, because it could make the battlefield more dangerous for the troops.

He's insulting 1 billion Muslims, not just "the enemy".

shouldn't you be all the more concerned that people the world over are calling on Jones to cave to jihadist violence?

Burning Korans is not standing up to jihadists, it's behaving disturbingly similar to them.

America believes in religious freedom and tolerance of different beliefs. That's what sets us apart from the jihadists. If we all acted like Jones, what would be the difference between us and them? We'd both be intolerant fundamentalists who preach hatred against anyone who doesn't worship the same holy book that we do.

This isn't about Christians vs. Muslims, it's about the civilized world vs. terrorists. There are Muslims on both sides, despite what you and "Pastor" Jones seem to think.

[Grievous]

He's insulting 1 billion Muslims, not just "the enemy".
Yet not many people care what they say might insult christians.
edit: sorry kinda off topic.

[Schlosser85]

Yet not many people care what they say might insult christans.


I consider myself a Christian, and I'm more offended by Pastor Terry Jones' behavior than anything a Muslim could ever say, because Jones claims to be a representative of us.

[Alex The Great]

I'm happy Obama seems to be all for the multi-faith centre. It's not a mosque, there are praying rooms for jews and Christians :up:

[maenalus]

He's insulting 1 billion Muslims, not just "the enemy".

Turnabout is fair play. The Koran is plenty insulting toward non-Muslims.


Burning Korans is not standing up to jihadists, it's behaving disturbingly similar to them.

America believes in religious freedom and tolerance of different beliefs. That's what sets us apart from the jihadists. If we all acted like Jones, what would be the difference between us and them? We'd both be intolerant fundamentalists who preach hatred against anyone who doesn't worship the same holy book that we do.

This isn't about Christians vs. Muslims, it's about the civilized world vs. terrorists. There are Muslims on both sides, despite what you and "Pastor" Jones seem to think.

Burning a book is "disturbingly similar" to mass murder and tyranny? Even if that book is the inspiration and justification for the murder and tyranny? I respectfully disagree.

[DACrowe]

Turnabout is fair play. The Koran is plenty insulting toward non-Muslims.

Such a hateful remark. You truly despise these people, which I believe is not what Christ taught to do to thy neighbor.

You find their holy book insulting, yet I can only imagine how offended you must get when feminists call the Bible offensive or when the gay community calls it homophobic.

And you know what? Parts of it are. But does that mean all Christians are homophobic or believe in stoning? You condemn literally 1/6 OF THE GLOBAL POPULATION because they are different from you. You accuse them of spreading violence wherever they go while ignoring that there are nearly 3 million Muslims in the US. Are they all violent terrorists who wish to overthrow the US? Do they have these secret rural training camps insinuated on the right wing blogosphere? Are the ones who wear the military uniform and fight (and die) in Afghanistan and Iraq less American because they are naturally inclined to violence, as you say?

The geopolitics of the Middle East and the west's strained relationship with that region over the last 200-some years as well as the rise of, yes, fundamental Islam (not that different from some parts of Christianity throughout history like the Inquisition, Crusaders, and Holy Roman Empire) has led to the cultural deterioration of the region. But to say it is due to a violent holy book is naive and trivializes the problems in that region (thus making them impossible to solve).


Burning a book is "disturbingly similar" to mass murder and tyranny? Even if that book is the inspiration and justification for the murder and tyranny? I respectfully disagree.

Throughout history tyrants, despots, dictators and the like rarely encouraged the reading of books--they burned them. Horrible things have been carried out in the name of Christianity as I previously said and there was a time when clergy would burn those who published or spread the words of the Bible to the masses.

While burning a book is not the same as killing another person, societies that accept that are the kind who limit their own freedoms and intellectual curiosity and usually end up in bad places.

Again you seem to equate all Muslims as the enemy. And implying that we are at war with Islam is a redneck notion as I previously stated. This is not a religious war. America does not fight religious wars; it is why I like living here. Insulting 1.5 billion people because you are upset at a few thousand is not equivalent of FDR berating Nazis in the 1940s. For one thing, book burning was something the other side did...I mean really.

[Marx]

PROGRESS BEING MADE AT WTC SITE
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/09/10/feyerick.shadow.of.9.11.cnn?hpt=C2

It looks like it's going to be great. :up:

[Schlosser85]

The Koran is plenty insulting toward non-Muslims.


And the Bible is grotesquely insulting toward women and homosexuals.

Burning a book is "disturbingly similar" to mass murder and tyranny? Even if that book is the inspiration and justification for the murder and tyranny? I respectfully disagree.

Oh please. Throughout history the Bible has been used as justification for murder and tyranny plenty of times.

Anything that can be said about the Qur'an can also be said about the Bible. In fact, they are fairly similar, as most of the major world religions are at their core, which makes the enmity between some Muslims and some Christians rather silly.

Mainstream Muslims don't believe in murdering "infidels" any more than mainstream Christians believe in murdering homosexuals or witches or disobedient children.

Your prejudice against Muslims is more obvious with every post you make, and you are blinded by it.

[maenalus]

And the Bible is grotesquely insulting toward women and homosexuals.

It is towards the latter, not the former.


Oh please. Throughout history the Bible has been used as justification for murder and tyranny plenty of times.

The Bible is basically neutral in regards to what form of government is the right one. Since no polity can help you save your soul, it doesn't really concern itself with such things. Therefore, Christianity is compatible with multiple forms of government, whether clerical theocracy, feudal monarchy, aristocratic oligarchy, mass democracy or constitutional republic. The Koran, on the other hand, is very much concerned with affairs of state. Islam teaches that Muslims are to rule over all the world, while granting second class status to non-Muslims.

Anything that can be said about the Qur'an can also be said about the Bible. In fact, they are fairly similar, as most of the major world religions are at their core, which makes the enmity between some Muslims and some Christians rather silly.

Except not really.

Mainstream Muslims don't believe in murdering "infidels" any more than mainstream Christians believe in murdering homosexuals or witches or disobedient children.

Christianity doesn't require the murder of anyone. Islam does require the subjugation of infidels.

Your prejudice against Muslims is more obvious with every post you make, and you are blinded by it.

I haven't pre-judged anything. I'm anti-Islam because I've looked at it and found something I didn't like.

[Heretic]

I'm still confused as to why having a savior eliminates all of the stuff that we now see as ridiculous about the old testament, but not the stuff that is still seen as okay. God says that his word is eternal...and yet Christians say that it is not. Then they talk endlessly about things like homosexuality being a sin, while completely ignoring all of the sins God mentions in the same book (Leviticus...where homosexuality is called an abomination, along with eating shellfish etc).

[maenalus]

PROGRESS BEING MADE AT WTC SITE
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/09/10/feyerick.shadow.of.9.11.cnn?hpt=C2

It looks like it's going to be great. :up:

The memorial design is what I was expecting: a nihilistic, bizarre, cold, inhuman, postmodern travesty.

[maenalus]

I'm still confused as to why having a savior eliminates all of the stuff that we now see as ridiculous about the old testament, but not the stuff that is still seen as okay. God says that his word is eternal...and yet Christians say that it is not. Then they talk endlessly about things like homosexuality being a sin, while completely ignoring all of the sins God mentions in the same book (Leviticus...where homosexuality is called an abomination, along with eating shellfish etc).

I could be wrong, but I think the theology is according to both Christians and Jews, that the Mosaic laws were a special regimental deal. Particular to the time and place. That those laws were enacted for keeping the Israelites completely separate from and uncontaminated by the surrounding pagans. Some of the laws are basic, permanent rules of morality; like no stealing, no adultery, etc., while others were, again, just to distinguish the Israelites from pagans.

[Heretic]

Some of the laws are basic, permanent rules of morality; like no stealing, no adultery, etc., while others were, again, just to distinguish the Israelites from pagans.

Just depending on what current culture dictates, right?

Kinda like how Jesus was a warrior who took no guff back in the day when his more militant words were focused on, and now he's a peace loving hippie because Christians don't want to follow a warrior-savior anymore. That's the great thing about the Bible...you can just ignore whatever doesnt fit your current culture and the followers never realize how contradictory the book is because they never bother to read it.

[Schlosser85]

It is towards the latter, not the former.Really?

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Corinthians 14:35

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Timothy 2:12

how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?
Job 25:4

The Bible is basically neutral in regards to what form of government is the right one. Since no polity can help you save your soul, it doesn't really concern itself with such things. Therefore, Christianity is compatible with multiple forms of government, whether clerical theocracy, feudal monarchy, aristocratic oligarchy, mass democracy or constitutional republic. The Koran, on the other hand, is very much concerned with affairs of state. Islam teaches that Muslims are to rule over all the world, while granting second class status to non-Muslims.You're right that Islam was created as both a religious and governmental organization intended to create a theocratic government, but most modern-day Muslims do not practice its commands to subjugate non-Muslims, just as most modern-day Christians do not practice the Bible's instructions to kill disobedient children or to kill homosexuals and witches.

And as for the Bible not requiring anyone's death, Leviticus 20:13 states that men who lie with other men as with women must be put to death, and their blood will be on their own hands.

[Heretic]

The bible also says that anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. WHOEVER DOES ANY WORK ON THE SABBATH DAY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. Exodus 31:15

Sounds kind of harsh for such a small crime.

[chaseter]

That is why Chic Fil a isn't open on Sundays. They don't want to have to kill their employees.

[Matt Mortem]

That is why Chic Fil a isn't open on Sundays. They don't want to have to kill their employees.

It's a good policy. It's prevented many-a-massacre

[Kelly]

Please move the religious discussion to the religion thread. Let's get back to the discussion of the WTC.

Thank you...

[Gamma Ray]

Really?

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Corinthians 14:35

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Timothy 2:12

[B][COLOR=#ff0000]how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?
[COLOR=Black][B]Job 25:4


I don't see Christian or Jewish women walking around with heavy robes over their faces and bodies.



The bible also says that anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. WHOEVER DOES ANY WORK ON THE SABBATH DAY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. Exodus 31:15

Sounds kind of harsh for such a small crime.


Clearly it's not such a small crime, then? If you believe that G-d made these rules, then why would you question them? If the almighty tells you not to do something, it's probably best not to, is it not?



No matter how much people try to pit religion against religion, saying that one is no more violent than the other, the plain clear truth is that Islam is the most sensitive (a comic featuring Muhammad caused deaths? are you kidding me?), the most brutal (stoning women and children, killing anyone who supports western thought) and the coldest (joy and festivities in the streets "Palestine" and Lebanon on 9/11).

The western world is not the entity that needs to change here. It's the Islamic world that needs to begin condemning the actions of their brethren. Obviously not even close to every Muslim is an evil maniac and they should use that to prevent or at least speak out against evildoers. When the imam of the mosque can't say anything besides "Don't burn the Quaran or Muslims will murder people", it's a big big problem.

[Christopher Nolan]

many importan muslims in the world have spoken against islamic radicals and islamic terrorism but they dont get the attention. you can make more headlines with the bad muslims than with the good ones. that's one of the problems.

during my university time i met a girl from california who believed that islam is no good at all and all muslims are dangerous. funny that after several days she was suprised that my friend who's a muslim turned out to be a nice guy. it changed her view on the subject. yes, there are bad muslims in the world but for god's sake, get your information about the subject not only from one source. speak to muslims or imans before you judge all muslims...

[Spidey-Bat]

PROGRESS BEING MADE AT WTC SITE
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/09/10/feyerick.shadow.of.9.11.cnn?hpt=C2

It looks like it's going to be great. :up:

I hate the pools. It shouldn't look like some bottomless abyss (the designer describes it like that). I doubt I'll ever go there once it's finished.

[Gamma Ray]

I think the memorial looks great. The new tower that they're building on the other hand...

[Kane52630]

I think the memorial looks great. The new tower that they're building on the other hand...

this one?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/26/new-york-skyscraper-empire-state

[Gamma Ray]

No. One World Trade Center.

[Marx]

I hate the pools. It shouldn't look like some bottomless abyss (the designer describes it like that). I doubt I'll ever go there once it's finished.

I actually like the pools. I think having the names of the victims engraved on the ledges around the top of the pools is a nice touch.

[A&W]

I don't see Christian or Jewish women walking around with heavy robes over their faces and bodies.

.nuns are pushing that pretty close. It is saddening that people aren't even afraid to admit their prejudice anymore. It is because of the way conservatives are directing the conversation. They are making people feel like being prejudice is nothing to feel guilty about.

[Marx]

UPDATE: NEW HELICOPTER FOOTAGE OF LOWER MANHATTEN ON 9/11 RELEASED
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/07/911-nypd-helicopter-footage_n_832268.html

[Thread Manager]

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread 349603