The North Korean Situation

[Paradyme]

:hehe:

Exactly. What is left to do!?!?!

Ohhh....Russia. :facepalm

Makes you want to slam your head against a table doesn't it? It's so out there that it makes me question if I'm missing something.

[StorminNorman]

Let them keep building missiles. Everytime they launch one, we shoot it down.

I see no reason to believe that this administration would do this after their previous failure.

[hippie_hunter]

I see no reason to believe that this administration would do this after their previous failure.

Sad, but true.

[Marx]

US VOWS NORTH KOREA WILL FACE CONSEQUENCES FOR EXPELLING INSPECTORS
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/16/us-vows-north-korea-will-face-consequences-for-expelling-inspectors/

U.S. nuclear experts prepared to leave North Korea as the United States vowed consequences on Pyongyang for kicking them out — along with U.N. nuclear inspectors — after the United Nations condemned North Korea's missile launch.

Four U.S. experts monitoring North Korea's Yongbyon nuclear plant were preparing to depart the country in the next several days after North Korea ordered them to leave, State Department acting spokesman Robert Wood said. A small team of experts has been rotating into the facility since November 2007.

Wood said the U.S. has talked with Pyongyang about the expulsion and insisted the North Koreans would face consequences for "kicking these personnel out."

"We'll have to see what those consequences are," he said. "We are going to continue to work with our partners, both on the Security Council and outside of the Security Council, to bring consequences upon the North for the actions that it's taken."


He noted the United States proposed additional sanctions targeted at North Korea's nuclear program at a U.N. sanctions committee meeting on Wednesday.

The committee, Wood said, is determined to prevent the flow of goods that could be used to support North Korea's nuclear program, as well as entities supplying the North with nuclear technology.

Wood said the committee would have further discussions on the the list of goods and entities to be sanctioned. Under a presidential statement statement passed by the U.N. Security Council Monday, the council would take up the sanction issue if the committee could not come to agreement by April 24.

The International Atomic Energy Agency said its inspectors left North Korea on Thursday after being ordered out by the reclusive nation.

[Kelly]

The consequences are going to be nothing more than a slap on the hand......as usual.

[EdRyder]

The consequences are going to be nothing more than a slap on the hand......as usual.

More like the threat of a slap on the hand. Its pretty pathetic when you think about it.Most of the resolutions enacted back in '06 have yet to be enforced. Are we (or anyone on UNSC) freezing DPRK overseas assets? Are we stopping and searching random DPRK cargo vessels?

nope.

[StorminNorman]

Who renamed my thread? I loved my thread title :(

[Matt]

The consequences are going to be nothing more than a slap on the hand......as usual.

Well of course. We'll slap some trade restrictions on them (like we trade much with them anyway, they're a third world country and they already have a **** load of restrictions). That'll be that. We are spread too thin to do anything on a military level and I don't think we'll risk bombing them as unlike Iraq they do have the capabilities to shoot us down or take revenge on South Korea. Plus to be perfectly frank I don't think Obama has the balls to take military action. After all, you can't ride your unicorn into battle.

[Marx]

Who renamed my thread? I loved my thread title :(

I did. (And the fact that you changed your avvy to John Madden makes me not regret my decision.)

[Matt]

By the way, is it me or did Biden's prediction come to pass?

[Hobgoblin]

Nah, he said the crisis would happen on Jan 23. :oldrazz:


...

Or was that Colin Powell?

[Matt]

Damned if I know but this is Obama's first real foreign policy test. If he proceeds with some weak trade restrictions, this will blow up in his face. Then when North Korea launches on SK or Japan (and Jong-Il is crazy enough to do it) the finger will be pointed solely at him. However, if he comes down strong (as he should) he could become a respected leader around the world (note, I said leader, not celebrity) and we can have our strongest foundation for foreign policy in years.

[Marx]

Damned if I know but this is Obama's first real foreign policy test. If he proceeds with some weak trade restrictions, this will blow up in his face. Then when North Korea launches on SK or Japan (and Jong-Il is crazy enough to do it) the finger will be pointed solely at him.

Well...you know the downfall of the world will come at the hands of Obama. :whatever:

[Kelly]

Damned if I know but this is Obama's first real foreign policy test. If he proceeds with some weak trade restrictions, this will blow up in his face. Then when North Korea launches on SK or Japan (and Jong-Il is crazy enough to do it) the finger will be pointed solely at him. However, if he comes down strong (as he should) he could become a respected leader around the world (note, I said leader, not celebrity) and we can have our strongest foundation for foreign policy in years.


Il isn't going to launch anything.....he's gonna sell it to the highest bidder...probably an oil rich nation somewhere....

[Matt]

Well...you know the downfall of the world will come at the hands of Obama. :whatever:

Thus my edit.

[Matt]

Il isn't going to launch anything.....he's gonna sell it to the highest bidder...probably an oil rich nation somewhere....

Not if he sees a way to grab power, land, or resources from Japan or SK

[Marx]

Thus my edit.

*noted*

:cwink:

[Kelly]

Not if he sees a way to grab power, land, or resources from Japan or SK


He doesn't want more land, he wants more money in his pocket. He is in a developing country that has very little of anything to export and make money.....

As long as he has a steady flow of GOOD MONEY, he's fine.

[Matt]

He doesn't want more land, he wants more money in his pocket. He is in a developing country that has very little of anything to export and make money.....

As long as he has a steady flow of GOOD MONEY, he's fine.

You're giving Jong-Il too much credit. The man is a psycho. He may want money but it is all part of an ultimate goal to get power. Plus he is probably crazy enough to think the rest of the world will buy him off if he attacks SK or Japan. He is a nut job. He doesn't think like a rational person.

[Kelly]

Well, me and the experts then, because that is the scenario that military experts predict.

[EdRyder]

All the restrictions that would be effective are in place, they just need to be enforced. Problem is when you have members on the council like China who wont do their part.You cant live off the 'concept' or idea of consequences.
If NK launches on Japan ( Japan is confident they'll shoot it down) what are the consequences then?

[Matt]

Kel, Source please? :cwink:

Anyway, its moot. You missed the point. If Jong-Il sells the missile to some Middle Eastern warlord who will use it or uses it on a neighbor, the results will be the same. An international crisis that will cost lots of lives. And if it happens on Obama's watch...he will become impotent as a world leader. However, if he takes a strong stance against Jong-Il right now...he can establish himself as a true world leader (once again I'd like to distinguish between leader and celebrity). Unfortunately, I just don't see a route we can take other than weak trade restrictions which will ultimately do nothing.

[Hobgoblin]

Il isn't going to launch anything.....he's gonna sell it to the highest bidder...probably an oil rich nation somewhere....

Ditto.

The continuation of the NK regime is the first, last and only thing on Kim's mind. Launching on SK or Japan would end it right quick. Selling it to another country, or terrorist organization, would give him his money and be much more difficult to prove after the fact.

And I dont see anything coming out of the UN but a wagging finger.

[Kelly]

Kel, Source please? :cwink:

Anyway, its moot. You missed the point. If Jong-Il sells the missile to some Middle Eastern warlord who will use it or uses it on a neighbor, the results will be the same. An international crisis that will cost lots of lives. And if it happens on Obama's watch...he will become impotent as a world leader. However, if he takes a strong stance against Jong-Il right now...he can establish himself as a true world leader (once again I'd like to distinguish between leader and celebrity). Unfortunately, I just don't see a route we can take other than weak trade restrictions which will ultimately do nothing.


There have been I believe 2 Times articles about this, Carnegie Publications, Washington Post has done a story on this, as well as the National Review.

I'm sure they are in their archives.

To make the point, then simply say...."Whatever Il does people are in danger...."

Easy....

[Matt]

All the restrictions that would be effective are in place, they just need to be enforced. Problem is when you have members on the council like China who wont do their part.You cant live off the 'concept' or idea of consequences.
If NK launches on Japan ( Japan is confident they'll shoot it down) what are the consequences then?

The problem with trade restrictions is not entirely China. Jong-Il could give two ****s about trade because if he does sell his weapons (and Kel is right, he will try...I just think he will use them as well), the benefits are much higher than any pity trade they get with North American or European countries (being as they are a country with no resources, what revenue can they really get for trade?).

[Matt]

There have been I believe 2 Times articles about this, Carnegie Publications, Washington Post has done a story on this, as well as the National Review.

I'm sure they are in their archives.

To make the point, then simply say...."Whatever Il does people are in danger...."

Easy....

Telling someone to look up links to a claim you made is easy as well. At least my statement is true. No matter what happens people will die unless we take a strict stance to end this right now.

Besides, just as many military and foreign policy experts will argue that Jong-Il is a mad man.

[EdRyder]

The problem with trade restrictions is not entirely China. Jong-Il could give two ****s about trade because if he does sell his weapons (and Kel is right, he will try...I just think he will use them as well), the benefits are much higher than any pity trade they get with North American or European countries (being as they are a country with no resources, what revenue can they really get for trade?).

I hear ya. Point I was trying to make is China is on the UNSC , they passed a resolution on all this bs back in 06(freezing overseas assets , searching cargo vessel, etc.) The China says "No, we wont be stopping and searching any vessels."(No one else is either)Theres plenty of ways to hurt them financially.Stopping cargo looking for inspection is one of them.

[Kelly]

Telling someone to look up links to a claim you made is easy as well. At least my statement is true. No matter what happens people will die unless we take a strict stance to end this right now.

Besides, just as many military and foreign policy experts will argue that Jong-Il is a mad man.

Take your pick...

http://www.google.com/search?q=Il%2Bjong%2Bselling%2Bnukes&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

[Matt]

Take your pick...

http://www.google.com/search?q=Il%2Bjong%2Bselling%2Bnukes&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

Several of those articles state that many argue that he is also crazy enough to use the nukes.

But again, we're arguing semantics and I think you missed the point of my post.

[El_Citrus]

The United Nations, and possibly our own foreign policy deserves a :facepalm: for the handling of this thus far. Can we get a gathering of the world's nations with some balls, please?

[EdRyder]

The United Nations, and possibly our own foreign policy deserves a :facepalm: for the handling of this thus far. Can we get a gathering of the world's nations with some balls, please?

Your reckless facepalming when faced with the greatness that is Burkina Faso shall be your undoing sir!

[Matt]

You know Jong-Il wants power above all else. The mere threat of taking him out of power could be enough to scare him into backing down. The US, NATO, and UN should start putting troops on the South Korean/North Korean border. Watch how quickly Jong-Il pisses himself and backs down.

[The Major]

The United Nations, and possibly our own foreign policy deserves a :facepalm: for the handling of this thus far. Can we get a gathering of the world's nations with some balls, please?
The problem isn't the United Nations or America's foreign policy, it's China and Russia.

[EdRyder]

The problem isn't the United Nations or America's foreign policy, it's China and Russia.
And Teheran (you know the douches who've been funding lil Kims missile program since the 80's) Its really a combination of all those things.The Un security council members like Russia and Chinas inaction, and our failed foreign policy for 30 years .

[The Major]

And Teheran (you know the douches who've been funding lil Kims missile program since the 80's) Its really a combination of all those things.The Un security council members like Russia and Chinas inaction, and our failed foreign policy for 30 years .

Agreed.

[StorminNorman]

The problem isn't the United Nations or America's foreign policy, it's China and Russia.

Bull. The fact any country can prevent the UN from condemning a country for violating the perfectly stated sanctions it placed upon a country indicates a problem. As for America foreign policy, a foreign policy is ONLY successful if it's actually works. Being write in principal and not in reality does you no good. So kudus to America for taking the politically correct, diplomatic, violence as an absolute last resort route...the fact remains North Korea is being allowed to do whatever the hell they want. That is an indication of a problem in our foreign policy.

[hippie_hunter]

You know Jong-Il wants power above all else. The mere threat of taking him out of power could be enough to scare him into backing down. The US, NATO, and UN should start putting troops on the South Korean/North Korean border. Watch how quickly Jong-Il pisses himself and backs down.

I personally have a better solution in that we completely seal off North Korea for a couple of years. Allow nothing at all in or out. Cut off all money and aid.

It's not power that the North Korean regime is fighting for, it's survival. Do that and those chances are gone. Then once the North Korean regime either gives up or dies out once Kim is gone, have South Korea annex it and begin the long and painful process of rebuilding the north.

Kim and his regime is very predictable, but that goes away with the use of troops. Also NATO won't go for it. The UN won't go for it because of Russia and China. And South Korea most likely won't go for it.

[Kelly]

I personally have a better solution in that we completely seal off North Korea for a couple of years. Allow nothing at all in or out. Cut off all money and aid.

It's not power that the North Korean regime is fighting for, it's survival. Do that and those chances are gone. Then once the North Korean regime either gives up or dies out once Kim is gone, have South Korea annex it and begin the long and painful process of rebuilding the north.

Kim and his regime is very predictable, but that goes away with the use of troops. Also NATO won't go for it. The UN won't go for it because of Russia and China. And South Korea most likely won't go for it.

Go back to a policy of "containment"?

[Kelly]

Several of those articles state that many argue that he is also crazy enough to use the nukes.

But again, we're arguing semantics and I think you missed the point of my post.

Definitely, I'm not saying that he isn't capable of using them, in fact, I think ALL of the articles bring that point up....but from the latest intervews with Gates, etc.....I think they are more worried that he may sell them to the highest bidder.

And wouldn't be the first time, probably not the last...

[hippie_hunter]

Go back to a policy of "containment"?

I personally like to call it the "Strangle North Korea's neck with a boa constrictor" strategy.

The problem with the world's current strategy is that it just keeps giving into North Korea's demands and allowing them to partake in the black market, get a stable supply of energy, food, and goods, and have a flow of cash coming into them.

By completely shutting off North Korea and allowing absolutely nothing to come in or out. And I mean NOTHING, the regime will have no choice but to step down or die out.

[BlackLantern]

can't we just drop Sam Fisher into their missile factory and let him handle it?

[El_Citrus]

can't we just drop Sam Fisher into their missile factory and let him handle it?

We need a new A-Team, made up of Chuck Norris, Sam Fisher, and Tim Tebow (Dude's the second coming of Jesus, hasn't anyone from Florida told you?) to take out North Korea's missile program.

On a more serious note, I'm convinced the UN will not do anything more other than sanction and condemn North Korea, which is like telling a kid he can't play with his friends because he took dad's gun, without even taking the gun away. It's going to take a North Korean sold missile hitting a country to make the world take some serious action, and even then, the priority will be the country that did the nuking and everything will be stretched too thin to be concerned with North Korea.

[The Major]

Bull. The fact any country can prevent the UN from condemning a country for violating the perfectly stated sanctions it placed upon a country indicates a problem.

It certainly is a problem. A problem with Russia and China.

As for America foreign policy, a foreign policy is ONLY successful if it's actually works. Being write in principal and not in reality does you no good.

You'd prefer America anger Russia, China and Iran? How is that good foreign policy? :huh:

So kudus to America for taking the politically correct, diplomatic, violence as an absolute last resort route...the fact remains North Korea is being allowed to do whatever the hell they want. That is an indication of a problem in our foreign policy.

They can't do everything they want. NK is still isolated from the world.

[hippie_hunter]

It certainly is a problem. A problem with Russia and China.
Which is why veto power needs to be taken away

You'd prefer America anger Russia, China and Iran? How is that good foreign policy? :huh:
Considering that Russia and Iran have no problems angering America, that really isn't too much of a big deal. China on the other hand is another story.

China doesn't go out of their way to piss off the United States like Russia has with the invasion of Georgia and Iran does on a nearly constant basis. Plus we sorta need them for the money.

They can't do everything they want. NK is still isolated from the world.
North Korea has been getting everything they want. They get aid in return for stopping something and they still don't stop it so they can continue to negotiate to get more. Just because their isolated doesn't mean that the world community has spoiled them because China doesn't want refugees and the rest of the world ignorantly thinks that Kim is unpredictable.

[The Major]

Which is why veto power needs to be taken away
Agreed.

Considering that Russia and Iran have no problems angering America, that really isn't too much of a big deal.

Straining America's relationship with those countries is a bad idea. Especially since its gotten so inflamed in the last 8 years. They make better allies then enemies. Besides, we need Iran's help in Iraq and Afghanistan.

China on the other hand is another story. China doesn't go out of their way to piss off the United States like Russia has with the invasion of Georgia and Iran does on a nearly constant basis. Plus we sorta need them for the money.
Exactly.

North Korea has been getting everything they want. They get aid in return for stopping something and they still don't stop it so they can continue to negotiate to get more. Just because their isolated doesn't mean that the world community has spoiled them because China doesn't want refugees and the rest of the world ignorantly thinks that Kim is unpredictable.
Considering the situation they are still very restricted. They are not holding all the cards by any means. The best they can hope for is to survive, which severely limits actions since their allies will turn on them if pushed to far.

[Kelly]

Honestly, with this regime in Iran, they will never be anything but a problem to us. IF we can get past the idiot president and work with the Ayatolah, then there is a better chance.......but I don't see that happening.

Russia screwed up when they gave Putin a lifetime power play.

China needs us, and we need them....there is a chance there.

[The Major]

Honestly, with this regime in Iran, they will never be anything but a problem to us.

True. However, that doesn't mean we should make the situation worse then it has to be.

Russia screwed up when they gave Putin a lifetime power play.

That's not surprising.

IF we can get past the idiot president and work with the Ayatolah, then there is a better chance.......but I don't see that happening.
Agreed.

[Kelly]

True. However, that doesn't mean we should make the situation worse then it has to be.


Agreed.


Oh, don't worry.......we won't.

Israel will blow them off the face of the earth, if they end up with nukes. At this point, if I were Obama? I would be more worried about Israel than Iran.

[The Major]

Oh, don't worry.......we won't.

Israel will blow them off the face of the earth, if they end up with nukes. At this point, if I were Obama? I would be more worried about Israel than Iran.
Agreed.

[hippie_hunter]

Straining America's relationship with those countries is a bad idea. Especially since its gotten so inflamed in the last 8 years. They make better allies then enemies. Besides, we need Iran's help in Iraq and Afghanistan.
We don't need Iran's help in Iraq and Afghanistan. What we need them to do is stop supporting Islamic terrorists in those two nations.

And frankly with Putin in power, I just can't see America's relations with Russia improving at all.


Considering the situation they are still very restricted. They are not holding all the cards by any means. The best they can hope for is to survive, which severely limits actions since their allies will turn on them if pushed to far.
They have no allies to begin with. They've been given free reign to constantly blackmail the world. They've gotten away with so damn much. Illegal arms deals, illegal weapons programs, narcotics, smuggling, piracy, kidnapping, murder, etc.

[The Major]

We don't need Iran's help in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We need all the help we can get with those nations.

What we need them to do is stop supporting Islamic terrorists in those two nations.

Which they might do if America is able to convince them more peaceful ways to get their agenda fulfilled.

And frankly with Putin in power, I just can't see America's relations with Russia improving at all.

Can't hurt to try.

They have no allies to begin with.
I'd consider China, Russia and Iran their allies.

They've been given free reign to constantly blackmail the world. They've gotten away with so damn much. Illegal arms deals, illegal weapons programs, narcotics, smuggling, piracy, kidnapping, murder, etc.
True. I'm just saying it could be much, much worse if they were truly able to for what they want. Which has to got to be more then being a banana republic which is permanently isolated from the world.

[hippie_hunter]

We need all the help we can get with those nations.
Help from the NATO powers. Help with Russia. Help with China. But not Iran. They need to improve upon themselves before they can be seriously considered a helping power.

Which they might do if America is able to convince them more peaceful ways to get their agenda fulfilled.
I really doubt that.

Can't hurt to try.
Oh Obama will try, but since Putin is pretty much the Russian version of George W. Bush, it won't work.

I'd consider China, Russia and Iran their allies.
But they aren't. China is overall embarrassed to have once been North Korea's ally. They know that they're nothing but a pain in the ass. China just doesn't want the massive amount of refugees. Russia under Putin's leadership has imposed sanctions on North Korea that prohibits anything from Russia to be used in the North Korean weapons program.

China and Russia aren't allies with North Korea. They just have to deal with them as positively as possible because they share borders with it.

True. I'm just saying it could be much, much worse if they were truly able to for what they want. Which has to got to be more then being a banana republic which is permanently isolated from the world.
The only thing they want is survival and that's what we're giving them.

[The Major]

Help from the NATO powers. Help with Russia. Help with China. But not Iran. They need to improve upon themselves before they can be seriously considered a helping power.


I really doubt that.

Fair enough.

Oh Obama will try, but since Putin is pretty much the Russian version of George W. Bush, it won't work.

True.

But they aren't. China is overall embarrassed to have once been North Korea's ally. They know that they're nothing but a pain in the ass. China just doesn't want the massive amount of refugees. Russia under Putin's leadership has imposed sanctions on North Korea that prohibits anything from Russia to be used in the North Korean weapons program.

China and Russia aren't allies with North Korea. They just have to deal with them as positively as possible because they share borders with it.

They're reluctant allies. They're still aiding NK in the end since its the lesser evil for them. IIRC Russia has been against the U.N. using sanctions on NK recently.

The only thing they want is survival and that's what we're giving them.
I'm sure they'd love to take over SK again were they given the chance. We're giving them the ability to survive since they can't do much else.They only have blackmail since its all they got for leverage. They have nothing else to fall back on. That's why it's good for this stalemate to continue.

[StorminNorman]

NKorea confirms 'successful' nuclear test

North Korea staged a "successful" underground nuclear test on Monday, the communist state's official media said.

South Korea's presidential office said has earlier said that North Korea had appeared to have conducted a nuclear weapons test.

The government received a report on the nuclear test having been conducted, presidential spokesman Lee Dong-Kwan told a briefing.

He said President Lee Myung-Bak called an emergency National Security Council meeting for Monday afternoon.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.5a68043bbe3d8dfd1d4097e8ed70527 4.461&show_article=1

[Matt]

I'm sure our President is going to handle this.

And by handle I mean try to negotiate with a psychopath and just pray his better human judgement and fear of impotent trade restrictions win him over. Yay for our pussified foreign policy!

[Marx]

I'm sure our President is going to handle this.

And by handle I mean try to negotiate with a psychopath and just pray his better human judgement and fear of impotent trade restrictions win him over. Yay for our pussified foreign policy!

Sanctions and negotiations have been a major part of every administration's foreign policy.

'Bomb = Foreign Policy' is not a good policy and you know it man.

[Matt]

Trade sanctions do nothing to a country that imports and exports nothing. NK already has every sanction in the book on it and yet here they are.

Furthermore There is nothing to negotiate with. Unless we promise to fund the entire country of North Korea, then Kim Jong-Il stands to make a lot more money by selling his weapons than negotiating with us. Furthermore, if we do buy him out of his nuclear program, it sends a message to every piss poor third world country that if they develop nuclear weapons, WE will buy them out of it. And the next time Jong-Il wants a little money for his government, he will repeat this whole damn process.

In this isolated case, bombing is the right move. We should bomb strategic targets that could be used for nuclear development. NK is incapable of responding to such an attack. The only country who would get pissed is China, and in the end they would grandstand at the U.N. but that is it because we are their biggest client. Bombing potential development sites is the best play right now.

[Marx]

Trade sanctions do nothing to a country that imports and exports nothing. NK already has every sanction in the book on it and yet here they are.

Furthermore There is nothing to negotiate with. Unless we promise to fund the entire country of North Korea, then Kim Jong-Il stands to make a lot more money by selling his weapons than negotiating with us. Furthermore, if we do buy him out of his nuclear program, it sends a message to every piss poor third world country that if they develop nuclear weapons, WE will buy them out of it. And the next time Jong-Il wants a little money for his government, he will repeat this whole damn process.

In this isolated case, bombing is the right move. We should bomb strategic targets that could be used for nuclear development. NK is incapable of responding to such an attack. The only country who would get pissed is China, and in the end they would grandstand at the U.N. but that is it because we are their biggest client. Bombing potential development sites is the best play right now.

I don't know about that man...

[Matt]

Well what should we do? Our sanctions and negotiations clearly do not work. Should we sit by as they sell their weapons to Pakistan or some genocidal African dictator? I'd rather the world hate us for "being imperialists who bombed poor defenseless North Korea," than Israel be wiped off the map when Jong-Il sells his weapons to someone crazy enough to use them.

[Marx]

Well what should we do? Our sanctions and negotiations clearly do not work. Should we sit by as they sell their weapons to Pakistan or some genocidal African dictator? I'd rather the world hate us for "being imperialists who bombed poor defenseless North Korea," than Israel be wiped off the map when Jong-Il sells his weapons to someone crazy enough to use them.

I don't know what the right answer is. I'm just not convinced that (strategically) bombing a country like North Korea is a good thing to do.

[Matt]

If only there were some sort of world wide Tom Welling infraction. That would scare anyone straight :csad:

[StorminNorman]

Sanctions and negotiations have been a major part of every administration's foreign policy.

And sanctions and negotiations only work when you have an international body with teeth. Instead, we have the UN.

Being the teeth to the UN tends to be America's job. Instead, we have Barack Obama.

[Excel]

How about we secretly hire some sk rebels to attempt an invasion of the communist north; with our secret help how could they lose? we can call it "the bay of pigs invasion".

[Marx]

If only there were some sort of world wide Tom Welling infraction. That would scare anyone straight :csad:

:funny:

That's true.

And sanctions and negotiations only work when you have an international body with teeth. Instead, we have the UN.

Being the teeth to the UN tends to be America's job. Instead, we have Barack Obama.

You don't know what President Obama is truly capable of. He hasn't even been in office six months yet.

[Matt]

How about we secretly hire some sk rebels to attempt an invasion of the communist north; with our secret help how could they lose? we can call it "the bay of pigs invasion".

The Bay of Pigs was a sad example of JFK's lack of foreign policy experience. Obama's do nothing policy is just as bad, sadly.

[StorminNorman]

You don't know what President Obama is truly capable of. He hasn't even been in office six months yet.

And in that time he has shown weakness. Does Obama have the ABILITY to be a strong leader? Maybe. Possibly. Hopefully. But he has, to date, not demonstrated that and that is all that matters. He is viewed in Tehran as weak, he is viewed in North Korea as weak - and that PERCEIVED weakness (no matter how real nor how false) is what is driving international relations.

Bush was perceived to be a man not afraid to drive a Ford truck up your ass while listening to Toby Keith music. While that offends many people, it frightened many rogue nations. It's why Syria gave up it's weapons, it's why North Korea played nice with the six party talks.

[Matt]

:funny:

That's true.



You don't know what President Obama is truly capable of. He hasn't even been in office six months yet.

However, Joe Biden's prediction came half-true. Obama has had several major foreign policy challenges within his first few months. However Biden was wrong about Obama passing with flying colors. The only thing he has succeeded in from a foreign policy perspective is insulting the hell out of our biggest ally's prime minister and becoming a British media sweet heart.

I really wish Obama did not enter the 2008 Presidential primary. Because if he did not, Mark Warner likely would've ran. Hillary was bound to self-destruct. And Obama would've made a perfect running mate for Warner. Obama could've been a great president, in 2016. Once he gained some executive experience and saw that there is more to being the President than writing blank checks, giving pretty speeches, and looking good for photo-ops. Once he saw how the real world worked.

[StorminNorman]

If Israel takes independent action against Iran, Obama will be a reason (not the reason, a reason) why.

[hippie_hunter]

Well what should we do? Our sanctions and negotiations clearly do not work. Should we sit by as they sell their weapons to Pakistan or some genocidal African dictator? I'd rather the world hate us for "being imperialists who bombed poor defenseless North Korea," than Israel be wiped off the map when Jong-Il sells his weapons to someone crazy enough to use them.
Like I said weeks ago, the best strategy would be is to completely cut off North Korea and allow absolutely nothing in or out of it. Bombing North Korea would take away the predictability factor in the North Korean regime. But cutting it off from money, aid, the black market, etc. would force it to eventually give up.

[hippie_hunter]

Bush was perceived to be a man not afraid to drive a Ford truck up your ass while listening to Toby Keith music. While that offends many people, it frightened many rogue nations. It's why Syria gave up it's weapons, it's why North Korea played nice with the six party talks.
And don't forget Libya.

[StorminNorman]

Like I said weeks ago, the best strategy would be is to completely cut off North Korea and allow absolutely nothing in or out of it. Bombing North Korea would take away the predictability factor in the North Korean regime. But cutting it off from money, aid, the black market, etc. would force it to eventually give up.

Except that that is essentially betting everything on how air tight we can make North Kora.

North Korea's nuclear test was less a test and more of a commercial to terrorist groups interested in Nuclear Weapons.

[hippie_hunter]

Except that that is essentially betting everything on how air tight we can make North Kora.
I mean completely air tight. Right now, money, aid, personal goods for the regime, and people are allowed in North Korea to a certain extent and that is why the regime is able to survive.

With the Chinese, South Koreans, and Russians, it's entirely possible to completely shut off North Korea. Ships and planes entering North Korea would be forced to land or get shot down. The North Korean-Russian border would be easy to guard because it's rather small. China has the ability to shut down their border with North Korea.

[Addendum]

If Israel takes independent action against Iran, Obama will be a reason (not the reason, a reason) why.

Israel is it's own nation and doesn't need US approval or permission to act a particular way. They can handle themselves without the need of a babysitter

[hippie_hunter]

Israel is it's own nation and doesn't need US approval or permission to act a particular way. They can handle themselves without the need of a babysitter
But beforehand, Israel would typically get American approval before doing such actions.

[Addendum]

And I consider that to be unnecessary. The US and Israel are simply allies. Israel is not the 51st state, nor is it a territory of the US

[StorminNorman]

I mean completely air tight. Right now, money, aid, personal goods for the regime, and people are allowed in North Korea to a certain extent and that is why the regime is able to survive.

With the Chinese, South Koreans, and Russians, it's entirely possible to completely shut off North Korea. Ships and planes entering North Korea would be forced to land or get shot down. The North Korean-Russian border would be easy to guard because it's rather small. China has the ability to shut down their border with North Korea.

But the Russians aren't going to shut down North Korea, China is unlikely to either.

If you can get those countries together to do something, great - but I am not penciling in Russia's support until after it happens.

Israel is it's own nation and doesn't need US approval or permission to act a particular way. They can handle themselves without the need of a babysitter

Actually it's not that simple at all in the area of international relations. The actions of America do impact Israel, the actions of the President will impact the actions of the Israeli government. A President who commands international respect is always a more powerful ally than a President who is seen as weak.

Also, I am not saying that Israel is going to ask for Obama to sign off on it before it happens - not at all. I am saying that Israel is going to feel greater pressure to attack Iran because they have no faith in Obama protecting them.

And I consider that to be unnecessary. The US and Israel are simply allies. Israel is not the 51st state, nor is it a territory of the US

Then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of modern day international relations.

[Addendum]

Then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of modern day international relations.

And I will continue on enjoying life with a disregard and lack of interest in "international relations", except for the international relations with foreign broads.

[Matt]

Like I said weeks ago, the best strategy would be is to completely cut off North Korea and allow absolutely nothing in or out of it. Bombing North Korea would take away the predictability factor in the North Korean regime. But cutting it off from money, aid, the black market, etc. would force it to eventually give up.

We can't keep people out of our own country yet alone someone elses. Besides, unless we are prepared to shoot on Chinese and Russian planes and ships, this won't work.

[StorminNorman]

Lets just let the UN handle it :up:

[Marx]

SECURITY COUNCIL CONDEMNS NORTH KOREAN NUCLEAR TEST
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/25/nkorea.nuclear.test.outrage/index.html

At the United Nations, Security Council members took about an hour Monday to express their unanimous condemnation of the move. Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin called Monday's test "very serious" and said it "needs to have a strong response."

In a statement authorized by the council members, Churkin said the test was a "clear violation" of previous resolutions calling for North Korea to avoid provocative steps such as nuclear weapons or missile tests. And U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice said Washington will seek "strong measures" against North Korea.

"The U.S. thinks that this is a grave violation of international law and a threat to regional and international peace and security," she said.

France and Japan also signaled support for new sanctions against North Korea, already one of the most isolated nations in the world.

North Korea first tested a nuclear weapon in October 2006. Pyongyang had threatened lat month to carry out a new test after the Security Council condemned its test-firing of a long-range rocket and extended economic sanctions against the nation, which is in dire need of food and energy assistance.

Monday's blast, conducted just before 10 a.m. (9 p.m. Sunday ET) showed up on seismographs with the punch of a magnitude 4.7 earthquake, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.

U.S. intelligence agencies estimated that the 2006 North Korean test produced a blast equivalent to less than 1,000 tons of TNT, a fraction of the size of the bombs the United States dropped on Japan at the end of World War II.

[hippie_hunter]

We can't keep people out of our own country yet alone someone elses. Besides, unless we are prepared to shoot on Chinese and Russian planes and ships, this won't work.

In today's world it is impossible to completely cut a nation off from the outside world unless other nations as well are willing to back it up. That is why Russian and Chinese assistance would be necessary. A Russian/Chinese/American blockade against North Korea would be highly effective in my opinion.

[Hobgoblin]

I'm not sure if either bombing or more sanctions will do the trick. Do we have any other options? Condemnation from China and Russia sounds great but I dont know if that will happen, or how serious they will be.

[hippie_hunter]

SEOUL, South Korea — When North Korea suddenly announced Monday that it had conducted a second nuclear test, the initial view across the region was that this had been yet another defiant gambit by the North to extract more concessions from Washington.

That has been the oft-repeated pattern in the past, and is likely to be one motivation now as well, say North Korea watchers. But this time around, North Korea’s succession crisis is the primary driver, many experts believe, suggesting that the audience for the test is its own population as much as the United States.

Monday’s test culminates a shift toward a more assertive foreign policy, which some analysts say seems to have begun not long after the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il, was believed to have suffered a stroke in August. Speculation about a successor has focused on his youngest son, Kim Jong-un, which would continue the family dynasty to the third generation — one unique among Communist nations.

Some experts say the test was a display of might aimed at showing solidarity with North Korea’s powerful military, whose support would be essential in securing Mr. Kim’s choice of successor. Others believe the intended audience was North Korea’s largely impoverished population, in hopes a display of technological prowess could serve as the elder Mr. Kim’s legacy in a government that has failed to deliver even basic food and electricity.

Either way, the North Korean government most likely hopes the test will help ensure a smooth transition of power — and, perhaps, show that the elder Kim is still in charge, at least for now.

“Kim Jong-il wants to show that he has given his nation mighty nuclear power,” said Yoon Deok-min, a senior researcher at the Institute of Foreign Affairs and National Security, a Seoul-based research organization. “This test was absolutely a domestic demonstration.”

Analysts called the test a sign that the ruling family may be preparing for a transition. Last month, Kim Jong-il’s brother-in-law, Jang Seong-taek, joined the National Defense Commission, the most powerful group in the North Korean government, said Kim Sung-han, an international relations professor at Korea University in Seoul. He said Mr. Jang’s promotion may be a move to secure support from the military in case Mr. Kim’s health worsens.

In April, South Korean news media reported that Kim Jong-un, who is in his mid-20s, was appointed to a low-ranking job in the commission. Mr. Jang, Kim Sung-han said, may also be a caretaker until the younger Kim is old enough to assume power in a society that values seniority.

“The test is a signal of Kim Jong-il’s desire to build good ties with the military,” he said. “The military is key to the succession.”

To be sure, as North Korea experts admit, trying to fathom this highly secretive government’s motives is an exercise in tea leaf reading. And most North Korea watchers agree that the North is still keen to use nuclear brinksmanship to extract as much aid and food as possible out of Washington, in what has become a tried-and-true strategy.

It attempted this in 1998, when it fired a multistage rocket over Japan, following up months later with an offer to halt long-range missile tests. Those concessions resulted in a thaw in ties with Washington that led to a groundbreaking visit two years later by then Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.

The problem is that these improvements in relations have often proved short-lived. Just a year ago, North Korea blew up the cooling tower at its main nuclear weapons plant after agreeing to give up its weapons program. But it reneged on that promise in April, restarting its program out of anger at United Nations’ sanctions for a long-range rocket test.

Then there are also those who say the North’s main objective in Monday’s test was simply to advance its nuclear technology, in order to build an independent deterrent along the lines of Israel or Pakistan. Early seismic readings show the underground blast, in North Korea’s northeast, was much more powerful than its first nuclear test three years ago, news reports in South Korea said.

Most experts agree that the North sees development of nuclear bombs and other weapons as the best way to ensure the current government’s survival. They also say it hopes that this will force the United States to accept North Korea as a nuclear-armed state, just as it dropped its objections to India, and eventually normalize relations.

“It is like proposing to someone with a pistol,” said Masao Okonogi, a political scientist at Tokyo’s Keio University. “There is a big gap between North Korea’s goal and its means. But this is the only way that North Korea knows how to operate.”

Mr. Okonogi believes that the North conducted Monday’s test mainly to grab Washington’s attention. He said there is a perception among North Korean leaders that their nation has been a lower priority for the new administration of President Obama — a view that does reflect an administration strategy of trying to play down North Korea, given the succession crisis and the current focus on Iran.

“They want to be recognized as a nuclear-armed nation,” said Mr. Kim of Korea University. He added, with some hyperbole, “If Washington would do that, I’m sure the North would even be willing to send troops to help in Afghanistan.”

[hippie_hunter]

I'm not sure if either bombing or more sanctions will do the trick. Do we have any other options? Condemnation from China and Russia sounds great but I dont know if that will happen, or how serious they will be.

Russian and Chinese support is crucial when dealing with North Korea. And they are not happy with North Korea either.

[Hobgoblin]

Havent they been unhappy with NK for years now? Doesnt seem to stop anything.

[hippie_hunter]

Havent they been unhappy with NK for years now? Doesnt seem to stop anything.

Their relations with North Korea has moved from a rather uneasiness to getting annoyed to the point where they're essentially starting to seal off their border with North Korea and are sending high level officials to North Korea to get them to back down.

[Nivek]

Why do I see a horrible chemical or nuclear "accident" happening in NK because of their testing?

[[A]]

Would make a good trilogy. Or Cloverfield sequel.

[Matt]

In today's world it is impossible to completely cut a nation off from the outside world unless other nations as well are willing to back it up. That is why Russian and Chinese assistance would be necessary. A Russian/Chinese/American blockade against North Korea would be highly effective in my opinion.

Sadly, they won't. They will if anything deliver supplies to make a statement against the "American imperialists," so if a blockade were to be successful, we'd pretty much have to play chicken with Chinese and Russian planes and ships and we'd have to be willing to fire if they don't back down.

[Paradyme]

So, we are just going to keep frowning at them and writing them really mean and angry letters?

[Matt]

So, we are just going to keep frowning at them and writing them really mean and angry letters?

Sadly, yes. Our president doesn't have the stones to take the actions needed and the UN is essentially just going to ***** about it while doing jack.

[SuperT]

Isn't our military already stretched paper thin between Afghanistan and Iraq as it is? Are we in any sort of position to make any strike or threat at this point?

[Paradyme]

I think we should reinstitute the freaking sanctions again. It obviously worked since Kim was begging we drop them early last year.

[Matt]

Isn't our military already stretched paper thin between Afghanistan and Iraq as it is? Are we in any sort of position to make any strike or threat at this point?

We are in a position to bomb them. No one is suggesting invasion to my knowledge, but we can bomb potential development sites without any fear of retribution.

[Paradyme]

We are in a position to bomb them. No one is suggesting invasion to my knowledge, but we can bomb potential development sites without any fear of retribution.

But then, oh no! *shudders* we would be scolded by the U.N. and China and Russia.

[Marx]

Sadly, yes. Our president doesn't have the stones to take the actions needed and the UN is essentially just going to ***** about it while doing jack.

Something like North Korea has to be dealt with by the international community. I understand the 'America has to be the teeth of the UN' line of thinking, but the point is that there has to be an international concensus. (Which there seems to be.)

Isn't our military already stretched paper thin between Afghanistan and Iraq as it is? Are we in any sort of position to make any strike or threat at this point?

The only military suggestion that people are throwing out there is strategic bombing. Not full-scale invasion. (Personally, I think strategic bombing would be a mistake. Especally with our military in the state its in.)

[Excel]

Anybody thinking of our military as "weak" is delisuional.

[Matt]

Something like North Korea has to be dealt with by the international community. I understand the 'America has to be the teeth of the UN' line of thinking, but the point is that there has to be an international concensus. (Which there seems to be.)


The problem is, the UN is an impotent organization. If we suggested any kind of military actions against NK, then China, Russia, and maybe France would veto it so they can grand stand against the "imperialist Americans." The best we will get out of the UN are harsh words and maybe some trade sanctions. If we do not take action, it is only a matter of time before Jong-Il sells his weapons to a rogue state. And then what will people say when Israel is nuked or a WMD is used as part of an African dictator's genocide?

[Marx]

Anybody thinking of our military as "weak" is delisuional.

There is a big difference between 'weak' and 'stretched to the breaking point'. I'm not saying that our military is weak Ex.

[Marx]

The problem is, the UN is an impotent organization. If we suggested any kind of military actions against NK, then China, Russia, and maybe France would veto it so they can grand stand against the "imperialist Americans." The best we will get out of the UN are harsh words and maybe some trade sanctions. If we do not take action, it is only a matter of time before Jong-Il sells his weapons to a rogue state. And then what will people say when Israel is nuked or a WMD is used as part of an African dictator's genocide?

China and Russia do not seem to approve of North Korea's latest stunt either.

[Matt]

They disapprove as far as weak trade restrictions and meaningless condemnations. You suggest military action and watch how quickly their song changes.

[Kelly]

I say we do the following...

1. Point a few missles at them, and make sure that google earth is picking it up...
2. Send them the link to google search showing the missles pointing at them...stop the testing of nukes or we send this your way....
3. And say....."go ahead, make my day......"

one of 3 things will happen....
a. They don't shoot....and don't stop testing....(we send missles)
b. They don't shoot because they don't allow "google" to be seen in their communist country...and therefore don't know to stop testing...(we send missles)
c. They shoot.....(we send missles)

Bottomline, we send missles........this is getting ridiculous and needs to be stopped.

[moraldeficiency]

Military action means china gets millions dumped over their borders in days. They won't let that happen. Nothing is gonna be done to N. Korea, and that's probably the best strategy all Kim's got left is shock attention tactics to detract from how ****** his people's lives are. Doing anything to them would only help keep him in control by giving him "bad guys" to focus attention on.

[Kelly]

China needs to shut its mouth on ALL THINGS, until they stop arming the janjaweed and others in Sudan, and start holding that country accountable by not buying their oil.

It is amazing to me that the UN is allowing a country that THEY KNOW are selling arms to a government that THEY THEMSELVES have said is committing genocide. THE FIRST TIME IN FACT that this has happened WHILE the genocide is still ongoing.....but YET they allow this country to have a "say" in ANYTHING is disgusting IMO.

So until they start sending aid into Chad to help the Darfur refugees then they have "no room to talk" about refugees coming into their country.


But, REALLY, there would be no need for anyone to leave...because we have the capability of hitting their nuclear missles, where they sit.....without taking out little if anything else.

[moraldeficiency]

Come on the UN has a long standing tradition of whiney ineffectively to uphold and no one actually ever gets to hold china or russia accountable for their actions. I don't know how that happened exactely, but here we are. I'd say it's time we dumped this group ala League of Nations and start over with better principals and rules.

[Matt]

China needs to shut its mouth on ALL THINGS, until they stop arming the janjaweed and others in Sudan, and start holding that country accountable by not buying their oil.

It is amazing to me that the UN is allowing a country that THEY KNOW are selling arms to a government that THEY THEMSELVES have said is committing genocide. THE FIRST TIME IN FACT that this has happened WHILE the genocide is still ongoing.....but YET they allow this country to have a "say" in ANYTHING is disgusting IMO.

So until they start sending aid into Chad to help the Darfur refugees then they have "no room to talk" about refugees coming into their country.


But, REALLY, there would be no need for anyone to leave...because we have the capability of hitting their nuclear missles, where they sit.....without taking out little if anything else.

Which is why, as I've suggested before, we need to pull out of the U.N.

I personally think it is time the US pulls out of the UN. The rules have made it an impotent organization. If the US pulled out in order to start a new organization, the UK (and possibly Japan and Israel) would follow. Once the US and UK are out, the UN will lose most of its money to give relief to smaller members and they will join the new organization. Once that happens, countries like France, Germany, Russia, and China would begrudgingly disband the UN and join the new organization with new rules and bylaws that makes the organization actually able to act when it is needed and keeps countries from blocking action for political reasons. Of course, our president is more concerned about being loved than being effective, so I won't hold my breath.

[Matt]

Come on the UN has a long standing tradition of whiney ineffectively to uphold and no one actually ever gets to hold china or russia accountable for their actions. I don't know how that happened exactely, but here we are. I'd say it's time we dumped this group ala League of Nations and start over with better principals and rules.

I'd just like to point out once more, as well, that Street Fighter: The Movie predicted all of this. Street Fighter: The Movie, crappy D-flick or ahead of its time political commentary?

Where is Colonel Guile when we need him? :csad: (http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/23558)

[Marx]

Reportedly, North Korea has test-fired two more short range missiles.

[Matt]

well,the UN's harshly worded letter certainly showed them.

[Marx]

NORTH KOREA TEST-FIRES TWO MORE SHORT RANGE MISSILES
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/26/north-korea-testfires-2-m_n_207484.html

North Korea reportedly tested two more short-range missiles Tuesday, a day after detonating a nuclear bomb underground, pushing the regime further into a confrontation with world powers despite the threat of U.N. action.

Two missiles _ one ground-to-air, the other ground-to-ship _ with a range of about 80 miles (130 kilometers) were test-fired from an east coast launchpad, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported, citing an unidentified government official.

Pyongyang also warned ships to stay away from waters off its western coast this week, a sign it may be gearing up for more missile tests, South Korea's coast guard said.

North Korea is "trying to test whether they can intimidate the international community" with its nuclear and missile activity, said Susan Rice, U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.

Ok...I'm increasing thinking that a strategic missile attack might be the way to go.

[Raiden]

I think UN should upgrade from "threat" to "action" regarding N. Korea right now.

[Matt]

The UN can't unless all five permanent security council members sign off on it. Which they won't. The US, however, can. Unfortunately our president worries more about being popular than effective.

[Raiden]

The UN can't unless all five permanent security council members sign off on it. Which they won't. The US, however, can. Unfortunately our president worries more about being popular than effective.

What would you have Obama do then, attack N. Korea?

[Matt]

Yes, strategic bombings of potential nuclear development sites.

[moraldeficiency]

I'd just like to point out once more, as well, that Street Fighter: The Movie predicted all of this. Street Fighter: The Movie, crappy D-flick or ahead of its time political commentary?

Where is Colonel Guile when we need him? :csad: (http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/23558)

We should learn from it's teachings. I've been advocating a fight tournament for settling political issues for years now.

"Welcome to CSpan ladies and gentlemen. Today should be an exciting day in politics. The stimulus package bill has been recieving some hard Shōryū-ken's by Ryu's opposition but E. Honda has been using the hundred hand slap technique to push the controversial legislation through some tight opposition....."

^this is how politics need to be.

[Hobgoblin]

NORTH KOREA TEST-FIRES TWO MORE SHORT RANGE MISSILES
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/26/north-korea-testfires-2-m_n_207484.html



Ok...I'm increasing thinking that a strategic missile attack might be the way to go.

Seriously. Time to nip this in the bud before it gets any further. Angry words can only go so far. Sometimes what needed is a good smack upside the head.

[Matt]

We should learn from it's teachings. I've been advocating a fight tournament for settling political issues for years now.

"Welcome to CSpan ladies and gentlemen. Today should be an exciting day in politics. The stimulus package bill has been recieving some hard Shōryū-ken's by Ryu's opposition but E. Honda has been using the hundred hand slap technique to push the controversial legislation through some tight opposition....."

^this is how politics need to be.

:lmao: Our country would run so much smoother.

[Raiden]

Yes, strategic bombings of potential nuclear development sites.

I'm not against bombing N. Korea's nuclear sites, but this can easily escalate to something more, and potentially delves US deeper into this conflict. Of course, both China and Russia will protest vehemently about it, but at this point I don't really care that much about it, but rather whether this course of action is the right one in the long run.

[Marx]

Escalation is my concern as well...but we may not have a choice.

[Raiden]

Escalation is my concern as well...but we may not have a choice.

Obama is trying to shift the focus of the war to Afghanistan and bin Laden, while pulling out of Iraq gradually. Starting another war against N. Korea is just a dicey decision, no matter how you look at it (and yes, bombing nuclear sites is still pretty much an act of war).

[Matt]

No, its not. If they cannot retaliate (which they cannot), we will not have a war and it will not escalate. War implies both parties fighting. Bombing would simply be us attacking them. They cannot attack back, thus, no war.

[moraldeficiency]

Couldn't we just air drop michael bay in there and be done with it? Two birds, one stone.

[Paradyme]

No, its not. If they cannot retaliate (which they cannot), we will not have a war and it will not escalate. War implies both parties fighting. Bombing would simply be us attacking them. They cannot attack back, thus, no war.

I'm all for a tactical air strike but can you explain why its not considered an act of war and why they can't retaliate?

[Kelly]

I'm all for a tactical air strike but can you explain why its not considered an act of war and why they can't retaliate?

Because we would also take out all of their bases at the same time....and go.....oooops. :yay:


But, actually it would have to be done like the Gulf War......

[Hobgoblin]

That all sounds a little too easy, just like the run up to Iraq. "They'll great us with roses as liberators." A country can always retaliate, one way or another. Maybe not militarily, but I'm sure NK is sneaky enough to find a way to make us suffer for a bombing campaign.

It seems like no matter what we do, this will eventually end with some painful consequences. Leaving them alone means furthering their nuke ambitions, striking them means retaliation. Personally, I'll take the non-mushroom cloud retaliation.

[StorminNorman]

In today's world it is impossible to completely cut a nation off from the outside world unless other nations as well are willing to back it up. That is why Russian and Chinese assistance would be necessary. A Russian/Chinese/American blockade against North Korea would be highly effective in my opinion.

North Korea poses little threat to Russia, so they have no reason to support any action against North Korea. At this point Russia gains more from America being distracted by North Korea than it does by stopping it.

Isn't our military already stretched paper thin between Afghanistan and Iraq as it is?

No one is really suggesting an invasion. Our Air Force has plenty of shiny toys to play with.

Are we in any sort of position to make any strike or threat at this point?

We always are.

Anybody thinking of our military as "weak" is delisuional.

The strength of the military is irrelevant. The strength of our leaders mean everything.

Our military was powerful enough to win in Vietnam, Kennedy and Johnson were not.

I say we do the following...

1. Point a few missles at them, and make sure that google earth is picking it up...
2. Send them the link to google search showing the missles pointing at them...stop the testing of nukes or we send this your way....
3. And say....."go ahead, make my day......"

Can you imagine Obama saying "go ahead, make my day"?

:lmao: I want to see it.

I think UN should upgrade from "threat" to "action" regarding N. Korea right now.

The UN doesn't have an action button.

Escalation is my concern as well...but we may not have a choice.

North Korea's not really in a position to promote escalation, and they don't have good enough friends to escalate conflict either.

No one is going to risk American bombers to help North Korea...

Barack Obama cannot afford to be weak here. He must be aggressive. If he continues to show a lack of teeth, the situation with Iran is going to get VERY scary VERY fast.

[Paradyme]

Because we would also take out all of their bases at the same time....and go.....oooops. :yay:


But, actually it would have to be done like the Gulf War......

I know our military might is strong but I think the problem is and I heard this on Neal Boortz is that they have a million strong army and we have a couple thousand troops at the demilitarized zone. If we were to bomb their nuke sights. Jong Il could send the rest of his forces and kill those troops.

3,000 against 1 million would not be fun.

I do hope we do something soon because I'm tired of Kim exercising his little man syndrom.

[StorminNorman]

I know our military might is strong but I think the problem is and I heard this on Neal Boortz is that they have a million strong army and we have a couple thousand troops at the demilitarized zone. If we were to bomb their nuke sights. Jong Il could send the rest of his forces and kill those troops.

3,000 against 1 million would not be fun.

I do hope we do something soon because I'm tired of Kim exercising his little man syndrom.

1 Million against 3,000 and the American Air Force is a more than fair fight.

[chaseter]

Sorry but I think we need to intervene now. Sitting on the side lines won't win this one.

[moraldeficiency]

I know our military might is strong but I think the problem is and I heard this on Neal Boortz is that they have a million strong army and we have a couple thousand troops at the demilitarized zone. If we were to bomb their nuke sights. Jong Il could send the rest of his forces and kill those troops.

3,000 against 1 million would not be fun.

I do hope we do something soon because I'm tired of Kim exercising his little man syndrom.

It wouldn't be fun, slaughtering others rarely is. It would almost exactely parrot the first gulf war where we were up against (I think it was the fifth largest army at the time) and decimated them in weeks with ease. M1 bradleys just sitting out there smoking twenty enemy tanks from so far away the enemy couldn't see or reach what was killing it.

N. Korea has some **** gear, in a standing army fight they have zero chance. Hell they aren't quite at the nuclear tech we had in 1945, that should tell you a great deal.

[Marx]

Obama is trying to shift the focus of the war to Afghanistan and bin Laden, while pulling out of Iraq gradually. Starting another war against N. Korea is just a dicey decision, no matter how you look at it (and yes, bombing nuclear sites is still pretty much an act of war).

I would much rather prefer a series of strategic bombings to a full-scale invasion. The latter will not happen.

No, its not. If they cannot retaliate (which they cannot), we will not have a war and it will not escalate. War implies both parties fighting. Bombing would simply be us attacking them. They cannot attack back, thus, no war.

Bombing another country is an act of war man. No matter how you look at it. I'm not too familiar with the current military strength of North Korea, but I'm sure they have the ability to strike back in some form.

[chaseter]

I think Obama needs to have one of those across table discussions with no preconditions with Emperor Il relatively soon.

[StorminNorman]

Bombing another country is an act of war man. No matter how you look at it. I'm not too familiar with the current military strength of North Korea, but I'm sure they have the ability to strike back in some form.

Bombing another country is an act of war when the other country can afford to fight you. North Korea can't. They know it. They don't want to be destroyed.

Again, I really don't think North Korea would have done this if they thought Obama would actually bomb them.

[Paradyme]

1 Million against 3,000 and the American Air Force is a more than fair fight.

I guess I don't have faith in Obama's decision to go completely through with it if he ever decided to bomb the nuke sites.

Therefore, 3,000 American soldiers would die.

It wouldn't be fun, slaughtering others rarely is. It would almost exactely parrot the first gulf war where we were up against (I think it was the fifth largest army at the time) and decimated them in weeks with ease. M1 bradleys just sitting out there smoking twenty enemy tanks from so far away the enemy couldn't see or reach what was killing it.

N. Korea has some **** gear, in a standing army fight they have zero chance. Hell they aren't quite at the nuclear tech we had in 1945, that should tell you a great deal.

They may not have the equipment but they have the power of numbers. You honestly think Obama, if he decided to air strike the nuke facilities, would agree to bombing/attacking other military installations? Or do you think he'd be concerned about how it'd look if we killed a few civilians? Because civilian loss would be inevitable in a war with North Korea.

[StorminNorman]

I guess I don't have faith in Obama's decision to go completely through with it if he ever decided to bomb the nuke sites.

Therefore, 3,000 American soldiers would die.



They may not have the equipment but they have the power of numbers. You honestly think Obama, if he decided to air strike the nuke facilities, would agree to bombing/attacking other military installations? Or do you think he'd be concerned about how it'd look if we killed a few civilians? Because civilian loss would be inevitable in a war with North Korea.

Fair Point.

[hippie_hunter]

The problem is, the UN is an impotent organization. If we suggested any kind of military actions against NK, then China, Russia, and maybe France would veto it so they can grand stand against the "imperialist Americans." The best we will get out of the UN are harsh words and maybe some trade sanctions. If we do not take action, it is only a matter of time before Jong-Il sells his weapons to a rogue state. And then what will people say when Israel is nuked or a WMD is used as part of an African dictator's genocide?
Sarkozy's government in France is very pro-American and wouldn't do such a thing to take a grandstand against the "imperialist Americans."

Russia (which only looks out for Russian interests) and China (which wants to wield the massive amount of power it has) are the ones to keep an eye on.

[Marx]

REPORT: NORTH KOREA APPARENTLY RESTARTS NUKE PLANT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/26/report-north-korea-appare_n_207943.html

North Korea has restarted a weapons-grade nuclear plant and fired five short-range missiles in two days, news reports and South Korean officials said Wednesday, deepening the North's standoff with world powers following its latest nuclear test.

The missile launches came as the U.N. Security Council debated possible new sanctions against the isolated communist nation for its nuclear test on Monday. Retaliatory options were limited, however, and no one was talking publicly about military action.

South Korea's mass-circulation Chosun Ilbo newspaper reported that U.S. spy satellites have detected steam coming from a nuclear facility at North Korea's main Yongbyon plant, indicating the North is reprocessing spent nuclear fuel rods to harvest weapons-grade plutonium.

Its report quoted an unnamed official. South Korea's Defense Ministry and the National Intelligence Service - the country's main spy agency - said they cannot confirm the report.

The North had said it would begin reprocessing in protest over international criticism of its April 5 rocket launch.

[StorminNorman]

Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Ira...North Korea.

Doesn't quite come off the tongue the same :(

[Webley]

One thing I have never quite understood is why are we

{and when I say we I meen the USA}

allowed to have WMDs but North Koreany cant have them?

I think and please correct me if I am wrong, but is the USA the only country to date to have use WMDs

[Paradyme]

North Korea Threatens Armed Strike, End to Armistice (Update1)

May 27 (Bloomberg) -- North Korea threatened a military response to South Korean participation in a U.S.-led program to seize weapons of mass destruction, and said it will no longer abide by the 1953 armistice that ended the Korean War.

“The Korean People’s Army will not be bound to the Armistice Agreement any longer,” the official Korean Central News Agency said in a statement today. Any attempt to inspect North Korean vessels will be countered with “prompt and strong military strikes.” South Korea’s military said it will “deal sternly with any provocation” from the North.

South Korean President Lee Myung Bak ordered his government to take “calm” measures on the threats, his office said in a statement today. Japan’s Chief Cabinet Secretary, Takeo Kawamura, echoed those remarks and called on North Korea to “refrain from taking actions that would elevate tensions in Asia.”

........

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=awBTCPe7S2gw&refer=worldwide


Looks like its a bit more serious of a situation than I thought. At least Russia is worried now, or so they claim to be.

[moraldeficiency]

They may not have the equipment but they have the power of numbers. You honestly think Obama, if he decided to air strike the nuke facilities, would agree to bombing/attacking other military installations? Or do you think he'd be concerned about how it'd look if we killed a few civilians? Because civilian loss would be inevitable in a war with North Korea.

Yeah, I think he would actually. If he pulls a nixon on this, then all my faith in him would be restored.

Power of numbers fail vs. the number of bullets.

[hippie_hunter]

One thing I have never quite understood is why are we

{and when I say we I meen the USA}

allowed to have WMDs but North Koreany cant have them?

I think and please correct me if I am wrong, but is the USA the only country to date to have use WMDs

The United States is not the only country to have used WMDs. WMDs also include chemical and biological along with nuclear weapons. And well...lots of countries have used those like Iraq for example.

There are nations that it's okay to have nuclear weapons and there are nations that are not okay to have nuclear weapons. The reason why the United States, Russia, China, France, and the United Kingdom are allowed nuclear weapons as opposed to rogue states like Iran and North Korea. The major nuclear powers essentially have the common sense NOT to use nuclear weapons in today's world unless they've been nuked first. Rogue nations like Iran and North Korea on the other hand are too unpredictable to be trusted. Nations like Pakistan don't have the security to keep them. Israel is in a too hostile situation.

[moraldeficiency]

I think and please correct me if I am wrong, but is the USA the only country to date to have use WMDs

Iraq's actually used them on their own people. And to be fair, we only used them twice 60 years ago to save Japan from being taken over by Russia which saved millions of Japanese lives.

[GreenKToo]

Crude forms of WMD's were widely used during WW I.

The news is reporting that the White House is saying the threats from NK are just bluster....Lets hope so.

[Paradyme]

Are just bluster?

Well, I suppose, if even, the only way the White House will do something is if they nuke South Korea or attack our ships.

[Matt]

Jong-Il isn't going to attack anyone, Paradyme. They are going to sell them to the highest bidder.

[Paradyme]

Do you know the guy?

Maybe he has already sold a few but is keeping some for himself. That would be the intelligent thing to do. Obviously they have more than one since he detonated one underground.

This guy is kinda pissing me off. He is a freaking attention whore who I think is crazy enough to eventually nuke someone to just get everyones eyes on him.

[Kelly]

Do you know the guy?

Maybe he has already sold a few but is keeping some for himself. That would be the intelligent thing to do. Obviously they have more than one since he detonated one underground.

This guy is kinda pissing me off. He is a freaking attention whore who I think is crazy enough to eventually nuke someone to just get everyones eyes on him.

He doesn't have to know the guy, apparently our Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State do, and both have said that the main problem with is, is not him using them himself against someone, but selling them, to mainly Iran.....

[Paradyme]

He doesn't have to know the guy, apparently our Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State do, and both have said that the main problem with is, is not him using them himself against someone, but selling them, to mainly Iran.....

Why would Iran need them when Israel just released a report today saying that Boliva and Venezuela have been supplying Iran with Uranium/Nuclear material?

They may say their only intention is to sell them but should you take the possibility that he wants to actually follow through with his talk off the table?

[Kelly]

Why would Iran need them when Israel just released a report today saying that Boliva and Venezuela have been supplying Iran with Uranium/Nuclear material?


I'm telling you what both said in their last interviews on this subject. They are far behind North Korea in the "use" of these weapons......having the means to "use" them, the weaponry that will get them where they want them to go.....etc. That is where N. Korea comes in. N.Korea's president could careless about hitting anyone in particular, who has he ever spoken about....he speaks about defense.....HE WANTS money $$$$$$$$$$$$ and lots of it. Not, more land, when he can't handle the population he has now, why would he want more? He wants $$$$$$$$$$ and that is very evident in his decision making.

[moraldeficiency]

there's a big difference between fissable material, an atomic weapon and a hydrogen bomb. Thank god most of these luns are just getting to the point of atomic weaponary (and really crappy ones at that) and are no where near anything approaching an H-Bomb. In order to achieve activation you need a very precise detonation and obviously N Korea is having issues making that work, but they're still much more advanced than Iran.

[Marx]

NORTH KOREA THREATENS ATTACK IF SHIPS SEARCHED
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/27/north-korea-threatens-att_n_208009.html

North Korea launched a tirade Wednesday against world powers threatening to punish it for conducting its second nuclear test, saying it is not afraid of sanctions and calling South Korea's decision to join an operation to prevent the spread of weapons a declaration of war.

The North also has reportedly restarted its weapons-grade nuclear plant. It staged a rally in its capital, Pyongyang, on Tuesday to celebrate the test.

The isolated communist regime said through its official news agency that it would respond with military action if South Korea tries to stop or search any of its ships as part of the U.S.-led Proliferation Security Initiative.

"Those who provoke (North Korea) once will not be able to escape its unimaginable and merciless punishment," the North's official news agency said.

South Korea decided to join the anti-proliferation initiative on Tuesday.
Meanwhile, South Korea's mass-circulation Chosun Ilbo newspaper reported Wednesday that U.S. spy satellites detected signs of steam at the North's Yongbyon nuclear complex, an indication that it may have started reprocessing nuclear fuel.

The report, which could not be confirmed, quoted an unidentified government official. South Korea's Yonhap news agency also had a similar report.

The move would be a major setback for efforts aimed at getting North Korea to disarm.

[Excel]

Ive cant remember the last time a country was so desperate to matter...will Russia just take care of them please?

[Paradyme]

I'm telling you what both said in their last interviews on this subject. They are far behind North Korea in the "use" of these weapons......having the means to "use" them, the weaponry that will get them where they want them to go.....etc. That is where N. Korea comes in. N.Korea's president could careless about hitting anyone in particular, who has he ever spoken about....he speaks about defense.....HE WANTS money $$$$$$$$$$$$ and lots of it. Not, more land, when he can't handle the population he has now, why would he want more? He wants $$$$$$$$$$ and that is very evident in his decision making.

Then why would Jong Il make all these threats? It sounds like you are just agreeing with what the Secretary of State and whomever else are saying rather than taking into consideration that Jong Il might actually mean his threats. Like the one Marx just posted.

Or am I missing what you are saying? You think Jong Il is just in it for the money right?

Its not always about land either sometimes its just about killing a lot of people.

[moraldeficiency]

Then why would Jong Il make all these threats? It sounds like you are just agreeing with what the Secretary of State and whomever else are saying rather than taking into consideration that Jong Il might actually mean his threats. Like the one Marx just posted.

Or am I missing what you are saying? You think Jong Il is just in it for the money right?

Its not always about land either sometimes its just about killing a lot of people.

Jong rattles his saber for the same reason Amy does in Iran. Right now the N. Koreans are starving, it's a ****hole. The only reason the people don't rise up and demand a little standard of living is that Jong has them convinced the evil american gov is trying to destroy them and they need to band together. Making a common enemy is an extremely effective tactic to gain and keep power. Some masters of it: Amy in Iran, Jong in N. Korea, Cheney right here, most everyone in the middle east actually, Hitler, Stalin...basically all the best in human nature.

End of the day there is one absolute truth about all people, goverments and anything else on this earth....get to the heart of the matter and it's always about land.

[Paradyme]

Jong rattles his saber for the same reason Amy does in Iran. Right now the N. Koreans are starving, it's a ****hole. The only reason the people don't rise up and demand a little standard of living is that Jong has them convinced the evil american gov is trying to destroy them and they need to band together. Making a common enemy is an extremely effective tactic to gain and keep power. Some masters of it: Amy in Iran, Jong in N. Korea, Cheney right here, most everyone in the middle east actually, Hitler, Stalin...basically all the best in human nature.

End of the day there is one absolute truth about all people, goverments and anything else on this earth....get to the heart of the matter and it's always about land.

Amy? :lmao: I like that.

Well, I consider some people to be complete psychos with no rational thought and quite possibly just want to kill people and or watch the world burn.

You say it comes down to wanting land then why wouldn't he want South Korea?

All in all I'm just saying that we shouldn't underestimate what someone will do and by that I mean thinking that all he wants is land rather than destruction. If they are poor and he is losing tons of money why wouldn't he start a war just to start one?

[hippie_hunter]

Crude forms of WMD's were widely used during WW I.

The news is reporting that the White House is saying the threats from NK are just bluster....Lets hope so.
The White House totally dropped the ball concerning North Korea, even more than the Bush Administration. I really don't trust their analysis on North Korea because their predictability level is going down thanks to their succession dealings.

[moraldeficiency]

Amy? :lmao: I like that.

Well, I consider some people to be complete psychos with no rational thought and quite possibly just want to kill people and or watch the world burn.

You say it comes down to wanting land then why wouldn't he want South Korea?

All in all I'm just saying that we shouldn't underestimate what someone will do and by that I mean thinking that all he wants is land rather than destruction. If they are poor and he is losing tons of money why wouldn't he start a war just to start one?

Those are good points and I'd say the only reason that won't happen would be that he's still slightly sane or at least enough to know that china would much rather kill everyone there than allow the aftermath of a losing war to dump billions of penniless people over their borders.

And yes, I've decided (and I think we can all agree on this one) that from now on Ahmadinejad should just be called amy.

[Paradyme]

Yes, I shall call him Amy from now on. So, we have Kim, and Amy sitting in a tree...

[Marx]

NORTH KOREA TEST-FIRES ANOTHER SHORT RANGE MISSILE
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/29/nkorea.missile/index.html

U.S. satellite imagery has spotted "vehicle activity" at a North Korean ballistic missile site, two Defense Department officials said Friday

This activity is similar to that before a long-range missile launch by North Korea earlier this year. It comes amid growing world concern over North Korea's latest nuclear test and test-firings of short-range missiles.

Officials said the imagery shows vehicles used to transport Taepodong 2 missiles were spotted, but no missile parts were seen. The Taepodong 2 missile is a long-range missile that North Korea tested this year.

North Korea test-fired a short-range missile Friday off the country's east coast, a South Korean military source said. It would be the sixth such missile test since the country conducted a nuclear test Monday.

Also Friday, North Korea upbraided the U.N. Security Council for slamming its nuclear test, calling the members of the body "hypocrites" and warning of "stronger self-defense countermeasures" as the world body considers more sanctions against the country.

"There is a limit to our patience," the Foreign Ministry said in a combative statement.

[Kelly]

the world body considers more sanctions against the country.

That World Body is full of crap......and nothing else.

[hippie_hunter]

Dear President Obama,

Are you even trying?

Love,
Jesse White

[Marx]

GATES: NUCLEAR-ARMED NORTH KOREA 'NOT ACCEPTABLE'
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/30/gates-nuclear-armed-n-korea-not-acceptable/

The United States will not accept North Korea as a nuclear-armed state, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Saturday at an international conference.

"We will not stand idly by as North Korea builds the capability to wreak destruction on any target in the region — or on us," said Gates, speaking at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in Singapore.

"Our goal is complete and verifiable denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, and we will not accept North Korea as a nuclear weapons state," he said.

His comments came amid growing concern across the globe over North Korea's latest nuclear test and test-firings of short-range missiles.

On Friday, two Defense Department officials said the latest U.S. satellite imagery has spotted "vehicle activity" at a North Korean ballistic missile facility.

"North Korea's nuclear program and actions constitute a threat to regional peace and security. We unequivocally reaffirm our commitment to the defense of our allies in the region," Gates said in Singapore.

[Hobgoblin]

GATES: NUCLEAR-ARMED NORTH KOREA 'NOT ACCEPTABLE'
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/30/gates-nuclear-armed-n-korea-not-acceptable/

Okay, good.

But what are they going to DO about it?

[Matt]

I'd like to know that as well.

[StorminNorman]

It needs to be something dramatic, if for no other reason than to keep Iran in check.

[Marx]

Okay, good.

But what are they going to DO about it?

I'd like to know that as well.

It needs to be something dramatic, if for no other reason than to keep Iran in check.

With North Korea continuing to thumb its nose at the world, it is going to have to be something dramatic. The only thing that would be dramatic is a series of strategic bombings. I was strongly opposed to that at first, but six short range missile launches later, I see no other choice.

[Heretic]

Give Obama credit! He said we were disappointed in North Korea, and no one wants Obama to be disappointed in them!!

You take those stern words, and Obamas assertion that Iran is a tiny country that is not a threat, and wheres the problem???

Believe in Obama!!! He would never steer us wrong!

[Ace of Knaves]

I say we just wipe them off the face of the planet :up:

[Raiden]

With North Korea continuing to thumb its nose at the world, it is going to have to be something dramatic. The only thing that would be dramatic is a series of strategic bombings. I was strongly opposed to that at first, but six short range missile launches later, I see no other choice.

I don't like the idea of bombing N. Korea, because I strongly believe that even if they can't strike back, it will still pull US into a war. However, with their continuous testing of the bomb and long-range missiles, I think US may have no choice but to get involved in this deepening conflict.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Didn't N. Korea fire some test missles during the Bush administration?

Don't recall them doing much about.

[Handsome Rob]

Didn't N. Korea fire some test missles during the Bush administration?

Don't recall them doing much about.

And Clinton didn't do anything about the Rwandan genocide (he even acknowledges it as a big failure of his administration). So, if it starts back up again, are you going to say, "Wasn't there a genocide in Rwanda during the Clinton administration? Don't recall them doing much about." Or better yet, Bush didn't really do anything about Darfur, so does that mean Obama shouldn't, either?

This will be an opportunity for Obama to take a stronger stance against North Korea--something Bush should have done. Kimberly (since we're calling Mahmoud "Amy") is presiding over a regime that is oppressing and starving its own people. Further, from what I understand, Kimberly is also defying the terms of the Armistice that ended the Korean Conflict.

The actions of a leader aren't dependent--nor should their actions be supported or opposed--on whether or not they have an "R" or a "D" at the end of their name.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Maybe a stronger stance against a war hungry country isn't in anyone best interest right now.

It could be that playing it cool might be the best move possible. Our plate is full with Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. North Korea is just touting their military like they do every three years. Nothing is going to stop them short of an invasion and that would be suicide at this point with our military and treasury overstretched.

[Heretic]

A weak stance means that we let this war hungry nation that hates us develop an active nuclear weapons system. That cant be in our good interest, long term.

But wait...America has been brash and egotistical. We should be sorry for the way we've acted...and maybe, just maybe the countries who want us destroyed have a point. Maybe we should listen to their complaints and change ho we are as a people, so we can hope to have better relations with them.

[MessiahDecoy123]

A strong stance could mean North Korea calls our bluff. Then what?

We're up sh-ts creek without a paddle.

[chamber-music]

N.Korea was saying anyone messes with there ships and then its war. I say call their bluff. I don't thing Kim Jong Il has the stones to start a war with anyone other than south korea and perhaps japan. I don't see them starting a war with America or Europe and I don't see China or Russia rushing to their defence if they do.

The only card they got up their sleve is that they could wipe Seoul off the map before anyone can't stop them but after that they would be toast.

[Kelly]

South Korea itself, can wipe North Korea off the face of the earth, in a few days with the military capabilities that they have at their finger tips.

Call the crazy mans bluff....

Let China take care of the refugees that come across the border, because they sure as hell aren't taking care of the refugees flooding into Chad from Darfur, because of weapons they sold to the Sudanese government......

I say call the bluff, and let the refugees flow....

[hippie_hunter]

Didn't N. Korea fire some test missles during the Bush administration?

Don't recall them doing much about.

The Clinton, Bush, and Obama Administrations completely dropped the ball with North Korea, however they seem to be trying to get away with a lot more with the Obama Administration.

[Matt]

That's because Obama is perceived as weak by the international communities. Until he gives them a reason to believe he is not, both NK and Iran will continue to act more aggressively than they have in the past.

[Marx]

REPORT: NORTH KOREA MAY LAUNCH INTERCONTINENTAL MISSILE
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSSEO14165620090601

North Korea could this month test-fire a long-range missile designed to strike U.S. territory and may also be gearing up for skirmishes with the South around their disputed sea border, South Korean news reports said on Monday.

North Korea last week unleashed provocations rarely seen since the 1950-53 Korean War with a nuclear test that put it closer to having a working atomic bomb, short-range missile tests and threats to attack the South.

It also warned of further measures if the United Nations tries to punish it.

In another move that could further stoke tensions, North Korea plans to hold a trial on Thursday for two U.S. journalists it took into custody along its border with China several months ago after charging them with "hostile acts."

North Korea is preparing to test-fire an intercontinental ballistic (ICBM) missile with an estimated range of 4,000 km to 6,500 km (2,485 to 4,000 miles) from a west coast missile base, the daily JoongAng Ilbo cited South Korean intelligence sources as saying.

"Preparations for the launch are likely to be completed in mid-June," one intelligence source said.

[Matt]

It has reached the point where it is a threat to the United States and her citizens. The president's job is not to be liked by the rest of the world. It is to protect our country and our people. We need to bomb the hell out of any facilities that could be developing these weapons and we need to do it now.

[hippie_hunter]

I still don't think that right now, bombing is the best solution. North Korea is getting into a period of unpredictably thanks to it's testing the resolve of the Obama Administration and succession dealings. We need to take a wait and see approach right now with the regime.

And I still think that suffocating it to death is the best solution :o

[Matt]

Unless we're prepared to wage war on China and Russia by shooting down humanitarian planes we will be unable to suffocate them. We've waited and saw what Jong-Il can do for long enough. It is time to put an end to it. He is not capable of real retaliation. If he attacks SK or Japan in retaliation he will have the entire UN Security Council voting for military action and there will be a world wide military effort to remove his regime. He will pretty much have no choice but to take our bombing.

[Hobgoblin]

I think its time to give Kim the spanking he so richly deserves, I dont care how lonely he is.

[hippie_hunter]

Unless we're prepared to wage war on China and Russia by shooting down humanitarian planes we will be unable to suffocate them. We've waited and saw what Jong-Il can do for long enough. It is time to put an end to it. He is not capable of real retaliation. If he attacks SK or Japan in retaliation he will have the entire UN Security Council voting for military action and there will be a world wide military effort to remove his regime. He will pretty much have no choice but to take our bombing.

Like I said, China and Russia have to be involved in anything involving North Korea.

[Hobgoblin]

Like I said, China and Russia have to be involved in anything involving North Korea.

But what are the odds that they will actually let us bomb their little buddy? I feel like the only way the international community will support an attack on NK is if they do something really provocative, ie launch a missile at the US, attack SK or Japan or get caught red handed selling nukes to terrorists.

[Timstuff]

I don't understand why we haven't invaded North Korea yet. Some blurry satellite photos of trucks was enough to get us to invade Iraq, and yet a freaking nuclear missile launch isn't enough to get us to invade North Korea. If we did take out Kim Jong Il, it's not even like there'd be an insurgency since most of the people there are terrified by him, and they aren't neighboring countries full of fanatics who would try to turn NK into a warzone. It's obvious that there is no sanction the UN can administer that they will abide by, so the next logical step is for NATO to take military action against them before they can sell nuclear weapons to terrorists.

[StorminNorman]

I don't understand why we haven't invaded North Korea yet. Some blurry satellite photos of trucks was enough to get us to invade Iraq, and yet a freaking nuclear missile launch isn't enough to get us to invade North Korea. If we did take out Kim Jong Il, it's not even like there'd be an insurgency since most of the people there are terrified by him, and they aren't neighboring countries full of fanatics who would try to turn NK into a warzone. It's obvious that there is no sanction the UN can administer that they will abide by, so the next logical step is for NATO to take military action against them before they can sell nuclear weapons to terrorists.

There is little to gain, strategically, from invading North Korea outside of removing a rogue leader. There was much to gain, strategically, from invading Iraq outside of removing a rogue leader.

While the 'WAR FOR OIL' crowd is full of ****, Iraq's oil reserves certainly made Iraq a more valuable target. So did it's geographical placement.

[Marx]

I don't understand why we haven't invaded North Korea yet. Some blurry satellite photos of trucks was enough to get us to invade Iraq, and yet a freaking nuclear missile launch isn't enough to get us to invade North Korea. If we did take out Kim Jong Il, it's not even like there'd be an insurgency since most of the people there are terrified by him, and they aren't neighboring countries full of fanatics who would try to turn NK into a warzone. It's obvious that there is no sanction the UN can administer that they will abide by, so the next logical step is for NATO to take military action against them before they can sell nuclear weapons to terrorists.

Our military is streched too thin as it is. Invading another country should not be an option right now.

[Matt]

No, but bombing the hell out of them should be. Jong Il will be easy to keep in line. He's not a total psycho like Saddam. He wants to maintain power. If we bomb him, he will back down like the cowardly dog he is. He cannot retaliate as the only two countries he could retaliate against are SK and Japan and if he takes action against either of them, the entire UN security council would have no choice but to vote for his removal from power. He would have a REAL world wide coalition invading his country and toppling his government. If we bomb him, he has no choice but to take it.

[Marx]

No, but bombing the hell out of them should be. Jong Il will be easy to keep in line. He's not a total psycho like Saddam. He wants to maintain power. If we bomb him, he will back down like the cowardly dog he is. He cannot retaliate as the only two countries he could retaliate against are SK and Japan and if he takes action against either of them, the entire UN security council would have no choice but to vote for his removal from power. He would have a REAL world wide coalition invading his country and toppling his government. If we bomb him, he has no choice but to take it.

I am now on the 'strategic series of bombings' bandwagon. I honestly see no other choice.

[Matt]

I am convinced that if Obama does not bomb Jong-Il, even if Jong-Il makes some petty concessions (as he has in the past to get restrictions lifted while keeping things going in secret) he will hurt himself a lot in the long run. Suddenly other countries will see this weakness and start testing the limits of what they can get away with. You may very well see a couple genocides and an Iranian bomb if Obama doesn't bomb Jong-Il

[terry78]

Well, those two journalist chicks, one of which is Lisa Ling's sister, have been sentenced to 12 years hard labor. Time to go bust some skulls. :cmad:

[Ace of Knaves]

Instead of invading, or bombing, why don't the US send in a hit squad to just assassinate Kim?

[moraldeficiency]

REPORT: NORTH KOREA MAY LAUNCH INTERCONTINENTAL MISSILE
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSSEO14165620090601

what's adorable is people are actually worried this will work in some form. Chance of it hitting it's target 0%, chance of it missing completely 100% chance of it backfiring and killing themselves about 50/50.

Nothing the NK have done in recent time has shown even working 1944 US technology. People need to stop regarding them as an actual threat to much of anything. We have conventionaly weapons that are more powerful then their nukes.

[Raiden]

Well, those two journalist chicks, one of which is Lisa Ling's sister, have been sentenced to 12 years hard labor. Time to go bust some skulls. :cmad:

I think the NK will try to use these two as their bargaining chips, as a leverage against the US.

[Marx]

Well, those two journalist chicks, one of which is Lisa Ling's sister, have been sentenced to 12 years hard labor. Time to go bust some skulls. :cmad:

I think the NK will try to use these two as their bargaining chips, as a leverage against the US.

Sad, but true.

[kytrigger]

Instead of invading, or bombing, why don't the US send in a hit squad to just assassinate Kim?
Because while Kim Jong Il is an evil bastard, heisn't dumb. He knows just how much he can and can't do before forcing the UN to invade. Another person taking his place could very easily not know those lines.

Plus one of the only things I can think of that are worse that Kim Jong Il with nukes is having a major power vacuum inside North Korea where the nukes they do have can be taken over by various powerful individuals.

[luke1234]

Instead of invading, or bombing, why don't the US send in a hit squad to just assassinate Kim?

This is when i wish deadpool was real.

[mclay18]

Well, those two journalist chicks, one of which is Lisa Ling's sister, have been sentenced to 12 years hard labor. Time to go bust some skulls. :cmad:

I find it especially ironic when Lisa Ling did a NG documentary on North Korea (she actually managed to sneak in and out) a few years ago, and now her sister is arrested for doing something similar.

[Paradyme]

North Korea would use nuclear weapons in a "merciless offensive"

North Korea today said it would use nuclear weapons in a "merciless offensive" if provoked — its latest bellicose rhetoric apparently aimed at deterring any international punishment for its recent atomic test blast.

The tensions emanating from Pyongyang are beginning to hit nascent business ties with the South: a Seoul-based fur manufacturer became the first South Korean company to announce Monday it was pulling out of an industrial complex in the North's border town of Kaesong.

The complex, which opened in 2004, is a key symbol of rapprochement between the two Koreas but the goodwill is evaporating quickly in the wake of North Korea's nuclear test on May 25 and subsequent missile tests.

Pyongyang raised tensions a notch by reviving its rhetoric in a commentary in the state-run Minju Joson newspaper today.

"Our nuclear deterrent will be a strong defensive means...as well as a merciless offensive means to deal a just retaliatory strike to those who touch the country's dignity and sovereignty even a bit," said the commentary, carried by the official Korean Central News Agency.

.......

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-would-use-nuclear-weapons-in-a-merciless-offensive-1700590.html


I know some of you don't think they would be crazy enough to use a nuke well here is your answer. This should be taken very seriously.

[bell110]

We should let them know that if they use a nuke against anybody, there will be no such thing as North Korea anymore.

But, yeah, it's just tough talk.

[moraldeficiency]

I know some of you don't think they would be crazy enough to use a nuke well here is your answer. This should be taken very seriously.

What on earth makes you think they would work in the slightest? The multiply failures or the extremely low grade yield of the one successful(though I wouldn't term it that) test?

I think the work nuke just scares people. Regardless of whether they actually work or not.

[Paradyme]

What on earth makes you think they would work in the slightest? The multiply failures or the extremely low grade yield of the one successful(though I wouldn't term it that) test?

I think the work nuke just scares people. Regardless of whether they actually work or not.

What makes you think they won't work? They only have to succeed once to kill a lot of people.

[moraldeficiency]

Uh, I'm mainly basing my view on their history of spectacular failures. So far they're not quite at 1944 US technology. LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN: 1944 US TECHNOLOGY! It reminds me a lot of the cold war and all those disaster models. Everyone was convinced a nuke war would be the end. Between us and the USSR everyone would die. When we finally brought inspectors in it turned out 9 out of 10 USSR nukes wouldn't have even fired. That's a 90% failure rating before they even leave the ground. Now I know for a fact they were a hell of a lot more advanced than the N. Koreans.

Here's the thing, right now we have conventional weapons (Oxygen bombs) with a greater payload then their nuke attempt. I'd be a hell of a lot more scared of them using a dirty bomb than actually trying to make a nuke work since that actually takes skill and precision.

I'm gonna throw it out there now. It's 50/50 (and that's being generous) the missile even takes off and after that it's 50/50 that it doesn't just backfire on them and after that you're looking at 50/50 of it coming anywhere close to the target.

You can hand a morey eel a machine gun but it doesn't make it any more dangerous.

[Paradyme]

I've read your comments on the 1944 technology before. The funny thing is you assume that they are just going to nuke the U.S. We have troops/civilians much closer than the United States. Just because it isn't you or me in trouble doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about it and assume that since they only have a 10% chance of success that they won't succeed.

I'm saying that it needs to be taken seriously. If you want to keep saying they have 1944 technology to make yourself feel better thats fine. I don't necessarily feel threatened but I'm more worried about our soldiers and the South Koreans.

I see your point but I think you are looking at this situation with tunnel vision.

[moraldeficiency]

No, I assume, they just won't work. They try to launch and.... Wah, wah, wah.... jack **** happens.

Hey I'm playing the odds. If I have a 90% chance of something hitting, that's what I'm betting on. I mean you're actively worrying about something that has a very low chance of success or even happening. If I worried about everything bad that could happen with over a 90% failure rate I'd never get out of bed in the morning.

Of course it makes me feel better to know their weapons are over six decades behind ours. And I'm not just saying it, it's the truth. Actually to be fair, in 1944 our weapons all worked so they have a while to go before they reach us there.

The N. Koreans are just posturing, they want this level of attention, it's the only way that crazy regime can stay in power. The minute we ignore them, collectively, they lose the ability to keep their starving people's attention outward and now they have a fun little revolution on their hands and we win. We can win this by simply ignoring an annoying country, so why aren't we?

[Paradyme]

I wholeheartedly disagree and believe that your 'playing the odds' is a terrible plan.

And once again, they only have to succeed once. Just because a chance is low doesn't mean it won't happen.

[moraldeficiency]

You play worse odds every time you jump in a car. But as you will. My idea would work, if allowed. All jong has is western hatred to keep his people from turning on him. Take that away and he's got millions of starving and desperate people to deal with.

Couldn't that be said about anything. It'll just take one comet and we're all dead. Should all our money go into comet shielding? If you jump at any possibility of trouble you'll never find your feet on the ground.

[Ace of Knaves]

Where did you get this 1944 technology thing from? Are you just assuming that?

[moraldeficiency]

No, their most recent test (and the only one that's worked so far) had about a 10 kiloton yield. Little Boy had about a 15. And we're only talking Atomic Bombs not Hydrogen Bombs which is all we use now (megaton yields). So in 1944 we had two effective nuclear weapons, in 2009 N. Korea has demonstrated the ability to use one.

Atomic bombs require and incredibly precise and complex ignition to work, it takes incredible skill to make one. Now we have an abundance of scientists that have effectively made them and are contracted, you want to know what science education looks like in N. Korea? *scraps off piece of dog**** from shoe and shows it to you*

Quite simply, without the right type of minds working in the right envirnment you'll do more harm than good. N. Korea just doesn't have this. It's like asking a group seven year old to build you a rocket launcher and then executing them every time it doesn't work. No room to learn from your mistakes, incredible pressure, lack of education or expertise all equals ****** weapons. They have the plutonium but that's about it, I'd be much more worried about a dirty bomb then an atomic one from them. Dirty bombs are idiot proof and a lot creepier in terms of damage.

[kytrigger]

In all honesty, I'm not so much as woried about N Korea launching an ICBM at the US as much as them just trading a nuclear weapon to a country or terrorist group that will detonate it for them.

[Paradyme]

N. Korea: U.S. Nuke Umbrella a Declaration of War

North Korean media said Wednesday that a U.S. pledge to extend its nuclear umbrella to South Korea and Japan over military threats from Pyongyang would consist of a declaration of nuclear war.

The commentary in the official newspaper of the ruling Workers' Party of Korea is the latest in what is becoming increasingly frequent criticism against the U.S. nuclear umbrella covering its allies in Asia.

The report, carried by the official Korean Central News Agency, also criticized President Obama's vision for a world without nuclear weapons laid out in April, calling it "falsehood."

"If the United States seriously wants nuclear disarmament, it should set an example" by carrying it out itself, the commentary said.

......

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525634,00.html


Passing the blame off on us as usual.

[Dark Helmet]

Surely the U.S. Military has a Jack Bauer & or Tony Almeida type of guy that can go in there stealthy & plant bombs & boom goes the neighborhood

[Marx]

Passing the blame off on us as usual.

That's not very surprising.

[Paradyme]

That's not very surprising.

No, its really not, just frustrating. They are pretty hypocritical, in my opinion.

[Paradyme]

U.N. Powers Agree on Draft of Sanctions Against North Korea

The five permanent Security Council members, Japan and non-council member South Korea on Wednesday agreed on the text of a draft U.N. resolution that would expand sanctions against North Korea for its recent nuclear test and weapons program, a diplomat told Reuters.

The draft resolution reportedly will be discussed at a meeting of the full 15-nation Security Council later in the morning, with a vote expected on Friday, the diplomat told Reuters on condition of anonymity.

The U.S. and Japan have pushed for strong sanctions against North Korea in response to its nuclear test, but China and Russia have been more hesitant about provoking Pyongyang.

North Korea has bristled at any talk of sanctions.

On Monday, Pyongyang's main Rodong Sinmun newspaper said the country will consider any sanctions a declaration of war and will respond to it with "due corresponding self-defense measures." On Tuesday, North Korea said it would use nuclear weapons in a "merciless offensive" if provoked.

A draft resolution sent to the seven governments on Friday would curtail North Korea's financial dealings with the outside world, freeze assets of additional companies, expand an arms embargo, and authorize searches of ships on the high seas suspected of carrying arms and banned weapons to the North if the country whose flag the vessel is flying gives consent.

According to that draft, if the country doesn't give its consent — a virtual certainty if the ship is North Korean — the country shall "direct the vessel to proceed to an appropriate and convenient port for the required inspection by the local authorities." Several diplomats questioned whether this would actually lead to inspections.

The draft would have the Security Council condemn "in the strongest terms" the North's nuclear test "in violation and flagrant disregard" of the sanctions resolution it approved after Pyongyang's first nuclear test in October 2006.

It would also demand a halt to further nuclear test or missile launch and reiterate the council's demand that the North abandon all nuclear weapons, return to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, allow U.N. nuclear inspections, and rejoin six-party talks aimed at dismantling its nuclear program.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525670,00.html


It's a start.

[StorminNorman]

The fact it has taken this long to simply draw up sanctions is absolutely ridiculous.

Again, the UN is not worth the money we invest in it. America should leave it's incompetent ass.

[Marx]

The fact it has taken this long to simply draw up sanctions is absolutely ridiculous.

Again, the UN is not worth the money we invest in it. America should leave it's incompetent ass.

I couldn't agree more.

[Kelly]

The fact it has taken this long to simply draw up sanctions is absolutely ridiculous.

Again, the UN is not worth the money we invest in it. America should leave it's incompetent ass.


If the US left, the UN would fold simply because of budget. I'm ready for the US to step out of this organization....and kick their ass out of New York.

[hippie_hunter]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/12/un.north.korea/index.html?iref=newssearch

[Kelly]

And I can pretty much guarantee you that N. Korea will launch another missle within a few weeks.....

In fact, just today the Defense Dept. has stated that they have lost track of one of their missles they were watching, which means it was probably moved to be launched soon.

The N. Korea government could care less about these sanctions, and if the UN thinks that it will make the citizens turn against their government, they are nuts.....the people are scared to death of that loon.

[Marx]

NORTH KOREA VOWS TO 'WEAPONIZE' ITS PLUTONIUM AFTER UN PASSES SANCTIONS
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/13/north-korea-vows-toweapon_n_215174.html

North Korea responded to new U.N. sanctions with more defiance, promising Saturday to step up its nuclear bomb-making program by enriching uranium and threatening war on any country that dares to stop its ships on the high seas.

The North's threats were the first public acknowledgment that the reclusive communist nation has been running a secret uranium enrichment program. Suspicions of the program touched off the latest nuclear crisis in 2002.

The country also vowed never to give up its nuclear ambitions as a way to protect its sovereignty amid signs of preparations for naming its ailing leader Kim Jong Il's youngest son, Jong Un, as his successor.

Despite repeated assurances from Washington, North Korea has harbored deep-rooted suspicions that the U.S. could invade to topple its regime.

"It has become an absolutely impossible option for (North Korea) to even think about giving up its nuclear weapons," the North's Foreign Ministry said in a statement carried by the country's official Korean Central News Agency.

North Korea also warned that any attempted blockade by the U.S. and its allies would be regarded as "an act of war and met with a decisive military response."

The new threats came in response to tough new sanctions imposed by the U.N. Security Council over the North's second nuclear test on May 25.

[Shaolin Kenobi]

In all honesty, I'm not so much as woried about N Korea launching an ICBM at the US as much as them just trading a nuclear weapon to a country or terrorist group that will detonate it for them.

Good point... Proliferation is the really scarey aspect of this situation.

[Kelly]

It's a start.


They are alittle late, since N. Korea was put on the Nuclear watchlist of the UN back in 1992....

[Paradyme]

They are alittle late, since N. Korea was put on the Nuclear watchlist of the UN back in 1992....

I never said it worked but since this is apparently all we are going to do then what can I say. I don't think anything else more severe is going to be done unless something more pronounced happens. Whether or not that happens is to be seen.


NKorea warns of nuclear war amid rising tensions



SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - North Korea's communist regime has warned of a nuclear war on the Korean peninsula while vowing to step up its atomic bomb-making program in defiance of new U.N. sanctions.

The North's defiance presents a growing diplomatic headache for President Barack Obama as he prepares for talks Tuesday with his South Korean counterpart on the North's missile and nuclear programs.

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak told security-related ministers during an unscheduled meeting Sunday to "resolutely and squarely" cope with the North's latest threat, his office said. Lee is to leave for the U.S. on Monday morning.
A commentary Sunday in the North's main state-run Rodong Sinmun newspaper, carried by the official Korean Central News Agency, claimed the U.S. has 1,000 nuclear weapons in South Korea. Another commentary published Saturday in the state-run Tongil Sinbo weekly claimed the U.S. has been deploying a vast amount of nuclear weapons in South Korea and Japan.

North Korea "is completely within the range of U.S. nuclear attack and the Korean peninsula is becoming an area where the chances of a nuclear war are the highest in the world," the Tongil Sinbo commentary said.

Kim Yong-kyu, a spokesman at the U.S. military command in Seoul, called the latest accusation "baseless," saying Washington has no nuclear bombs in South Korea. U.S. tactical nuclear weapons were removed from South Korea in 1991 as part of arms reductions following the Cold War.

......

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090614/D98QDSOO0.html (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090614/D98QDSOO0.html)

[Grievous]

In all honesty, I'm not so much as woried about N Korea launching an ICBM at the US as much as them just trading a nuclear weapon to a country or terrorist group that will detonate it for them.
which is way I think everyday counts in this situation, But I don't see the US doing anything anytime soon untill it's too late.

[The Lizard]

North Korea warns the United States and its allies of a "thousand-fold" military retaliation if provoked: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_koreas_nuclear


North Korea is kind of like that crazy, smelly, sort of retarded kid that sits in the back of the class and threatens to kick everyone's ass.
No one really takes his BS seriously, but in the back of everyone's mind, they know that he could always snap and bring a gun to school someday.

[Matt]

North Korea warns the United States and its allies of a "thousand-fold" military retaliation if provoked: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_koreas_nuclear


North Korea is kind of like that crazy, smelly, sort of retarded kid that sits in the back of the class and threatens to kick everyone's ass.
No one really takes his BS seriously, but in the back of everyone's mind, they know that he could always snap and bring a gun to school someday.

Best analogy ever :up:

[Paradyme]

I would love to see North Korea fire a missle at China or the US. I'd love it. I double dog dare North Korea to do that.

[Nivek]

Team America ruined any ability I have to think of Kim being a real threat.

[moraldeficiency]

Do you have any idea how many spreadable diseases a roach carries? And this was a space roach, far more dangerous than anything N. Korea can actually do now.

[Paradyme]

Team America ruined any ability I have to think of Kim being a real threat.

But he is so lonely...

[Marx]

NORTH KOREA MAY FIRE A MISSILE AT HAWAII
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/18/north-korea-may-fire-a-mi_n_217293.html

North Korea may fire a long-range ballistic missile toward Hawaii in early July, a Japanese news report said Thursday, as Russia and China urged the regime to return to international disarmament talks on its rogue nuclear program.

The missile, believed to be a Taepodong-2 with a range of up to 4,000 miles (6,500 kilometers), would be launched from North Korea's Dongchang-ni site on the northwestern coast, said the Yomiuri daily, Japan's top-selling newspaper. It cited an analysis by the Japanese Defense Ministry and intelligence gathered by U.S. reconnaissance satellites.

The missile launch could come between July 4 and 8, the paper said.

:wow:

[luke1234]

Whoa :wow:

[moraldeficiency]

NORTH KOREA MAY FIRE A MISSILE AT HAWAII
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/18/north-korea-may-fire-a-mi_n_217293.html



:wow:

Hawaii is fine as long as N. Korea is aiming for them.

[Marx]

Hawaii is fine as long as N. Korea is aiming for them.

Regardless, it is ridiculous for this country to stand by and wait to see if it happens.

[moraldeficiency]

put that missle shield up in S. Korea and just shoot those *****es down. I'm not saying don't do anything, but don't count on a blind one legged pitcher to throw a strike.

[luke1234]

still there is that chance. If they do follow through with this something is gonna have to be done.

[StorminNorman]

It's okay guys. The UN has this one covered.

[Paradyme]

It's okay guys. The UN has this one covered.

:lmao:

[Marx]

It's okay guys. The UN has this one covered.

...that's comforting.

[moraldeficiency]

Come on, this would be great practice to try the shield out. It would be hilarious if we shot down every missle they fired. Scare the crap out of russia, china, iran too with that kind of display of precission supression of powerful weapons.

[StorminNorman]

I would dig that.

[Grievous]

Regardless, it is ridiculous for this country to stand by and wait to see if it happens.
Right! we are going to wait around untill it's too late. Why are we not doing anything?

[Paradyme]

I, of course, like the missle shield idea but how much would you bet that China or Russia would make a big hissy fit?

[chaseter]

I say if they fire a missile at us, we fire all of ours at them. That is an act of war and they just gave us a reason to take them out. I think us just sitting and swiping all of their attacks down will never end the cycle. Something has to be done and sitting here saying "No, bad" isn't going to cut it. I don't see any other way. We can't isolate them with trade embargoes because China will keep trading with them.

[Paradyme]

Gates: US puts more missile defense around Hawaii

WASHINGTON – The United States has positioned more missile defenses around Hawaii as a precaution against a possible North Korean launch across the Pacific, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Thursday. "We do have some concerns if they were to launch a missile to the west in the direction of Hawaii," Gates said.

Gates told reporters at the Pentagon he has sent the military's ground-based mobile missile system to Hawaii, and positioned a radar system nearby. Together the systems theoretically could detect and shoot down a North Korean missile if it came to that.

"Without telegraphing what we will do, I would just say ... we are in a good position, should it become necessary, to protect Americans and American territory," Gates said.

A Japanese newspaper reported Thursday that North Korea might fire its most advanced ballistic missile toward Hawaii around the Fourth of July holiday.

A new missile launch — though not expected to reach U.S. territory — would be a brazen slap in the face of the international community, which punished North Korea with new U.N. sanctions for conducting a second nuclear test on May 25 in defiance of a U.N. ban.

North Korea spurned the U.N. Security Council resolution with threats of war and pledges to expand its nuclear bomb-making program.

The missile now being readied in the North is believed to be a Taepodong-2 with a range of up to 4,000 miles (6,500 kilometers), and would be launched from North Korea's Dongchang-ni site on the northwestern coast sometime around July 4, Independence Day in U.S., the Yomiuri newspaper said.

It cited an analysis by Japan's Defense Ministry and intelligence gathered by U.S. reconnaissance satellites.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090618/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_us_nkorea


I'd say if they even fire a missle towards Hawaii we take it out. What nerve.

[chaseter]

This is ridiculous. Obama, ****ing step up to the plate NOW.

[huskerwebhead]

Come on, this would be great practice to try the shield out. It would be hilarious if we shot down every missle they fired. Scare the crap out of russia, china, iran too with that kind of display of precission supression of powerful weapons.

Or, the flipside, the missle shield fails... We'd look pretty stupid then.

Right! we are going to wait around untill it's too late. Why are we not doing anything?

I say if they fire a missile at us, we fire all of ours at them. That is an act of war and they just gave us a reason to take them out. I think us just sitting and swiping all of their attacks down will never end the cycle. Something has to be done and sitting here saying "No, bad" isn't going to cut it. I don't see any other way. We can't isolate them with trade embargoes because China will keep trading with them.

This is ridiculous. Obama, ****ing step up to the plate NOW.

It's my understanding that it's just a missile, not an actual nuclear missile. With that in mind, for us to launch all "ours" at them over a non-treat missile would be a bad move. The last thing we want is China and/or Russia siding with NK because we overreacted.

I'm not saying a response isn't warranted, but we need to be careful.