The North Korean Situation

[hippie_hunter]

Yes but South Korea has far more to lose than a lunatic with a starving population. It would be a Pyrrhic victory. If it went through, Seoul is done. And I wanted to give a Korea a gander before it is blown off the face of the earth :csad:

It does make me wonder why South Korea would allow their political, economic, and cultural center so freaking close to a flat out beligerant neighbor.

[craigdbfan]

Not really. The problem with the Euro is that it is the currency is used in many highly integrated, but in the end still completely separate, nations. When push comes to shove, Germany is going to look out for Germany first and foremost. Italy is going to look out for Italy first and foremost. France is going to look out for France first and foremost. And when you have nations like Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Italy, and Spain dragging down the Euro, the currency just can't take this kind of strain.

The only way the Euro can work is if you strip away all of the sovereignity of these nations, which isn't going to happen. The people of Greece and Ireland are extremely bitter towards the European Union for forcing them to adopt extreme austerity budgets. The people of Germany are extremely bitter over the fact that Germany is essentially the one who is bailing these countries out. And then you have the people of France and the Netherlands who flat out rejected giving up more sovereignity to the European Union. Euroskeptics rule in the Czech Republic and United Kingdom. So yeah....that's not gonna happen


I would say that has more to do with the horrid economic policies of Ben Bernanke, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama than some plot to create a single global currency.

All incredibly valid points.

Although if I'm not mistaken the executive has very little influence on the economy let alone the global economy despite policy.

The free market is uncontrollable right? Sort of like an avalanche when its already started, no real way of stopping it.

Plus thinking that these overpaid puppets in both the Republican and Democrat parties have any sort of semblance of real power is laughable as they bend down to the FED and corporations lobbyist on the daily.

[Paroxysm]

I feel sorry for the people of North Korea caught up in this ****.

[hippie_hunter]

All incredibly valid points.

Although if I'm not mistaken the executive has very little influence on the economy let alone the global economy despite policy.

The free market is uncontrollable right? Sort of like an avalanche when its already started, no real way of stopping it.

Plus thinking that these overpaid puppets in both the Republican and Democrat parties have any sort of semblance of real power is laughable as they bend down to the FED and corporations lobbyist on the daily.

The executive branch is the one that essentially sets the guidelines of policy and the legislative branch approves of it. George W. Bush put Bernanke at his post (who is the most guilty of destroying the dollar IMO), and Obama supports him. Bush and Obama have created an environment of massive government spending which is ruining the dollar with their wars, stimuluses, health care reforms, etc. and the legislative branch is just rubber stamping them. The same thing that is ruining the Euro, is ruining the dollar.

[craigdbfan]

The executive branch is the one that essentially sets the guidelines of policy and the legislative branch approves of it. George W. Bush put Bernanke at his post (who is the most guilty of destroying the dollar IMO), and Obama supports him. Bush and Obama have created an environment of massive government spending which is ruining the dollar with their wars, stimuluses, health care reforms, etc. and the legislative branch is just rubber stamping them. The same thing that is ruining the Euro, is ruining the dollar.

Right which hasn't helped at all.

Again all of this has the stamp of a ruling agenda despite party affiliation. Seeing all those things listed shows one conscious idea of big spending because despite us apparently adhering to the laissez-faire philosophy we've done the opposite with the stimulus which is another word for a regulated/controlled market.

Its been known for a while now that isn't very efficient yet thats exactly what we've been doing. Its like massive suicide almost all it does is create a bigger, and bigger bubble. I really don't know how they think its all going to end if they keep following this road of massive borrowing and spending.

Like you noted the legislative is also folding under a strict careless agenda that doesn't get removed from office, I don't even want to start with our so called representatives.

It's almost as if Republicans and Democrats just take turns playing their roles and following the rules of banks, corporations, etc. Sounds cliche I know but when almost all their decisions are influenced by lobbyist representing their company better than our own representatives are doing for their respective constituents.

[Marx]

I feel sorry for the people of North Korea caught up in this ****.

Same here Paro.

[Marx]

Usually I would say that America should not intervene. But in this case, this is an instance where I think that North Korea should be punished militarily. This, along with sinking one of South Korea's ships, was a flat out act of war. And the United States is obligated to defend and support South Korea.

Absolutely not, the major reason why North Korea has essentially been getting away with their misbehavior is because China refuses to allow any serious punishments for them. Until China cleans up its act on how to treat basic human beings (allowing genocide in Africa, supporting crackdowns in Iran, North Korea), China should not be given the lead on anything.

I'm very familiar with China's record on these situations, but even they are getting fed up with it.

[Anita18]

I'm very familiar with China's record on these situations, but even they are getting fed up with it.
Not surprising. China is certainly stubborn and paranoid, but they're not crazy and they possess some logic behind their decisions. I can't even say the same about North Korea.

China is like the parent of the blackmailing punk kid (North Korea) who gets away with everything because he'll get his parents arrested on fake child abuse charges. (Or they're afraid of the kid because he bought some weapons online, maybe that's a better analogy...)

At some point I think China is going to have to take over the entire caboodle so they can throw Kim Jong-il and/or his son out. They won't be able to keep up this delicate political charade forever.

[Marx]

Not surprising. China is certainly stubborn and paranoid, but they're not crazy and they possess some logic behind their decisions. I can't even say the same about North Korea.

China is like the parent of the blackmailing punk kid (North Korea) who gets away with everything because he'll get his parents arrested on fake child abuse charges. (Or they're afraid of the kid because he bought some weapons online, maybe that's a better analogy...)

At some point I think China is going to have to take over the entire caboodle so they can throw Kim Jong-il and/or his son out. They won't be able to keep up this delicate political charade forever.

Exactly Anita.

[craigdbfan]

Anita while that sounds good at the moment think of the problems that would arise after a China controlled North Korea.

The Chinese have a long history of racism and oppression. The North Korean people would hate the Chinese and the Chinese would have another Taiwan or Burma on their hands but even worse.

North Koreans are so indoctrinated that mass suicides wouldn't be surprising. Think the fascist Japan circa 1943 only way poorer, incapable, and 10X more insane/inane.

China really doesn't want another asian country to deal with.

[doih]

I'm very familiar with China's record on these situations, but even they are getting fed up with it.

Problem is while China has the most leverage out of anyone with regards to North Korea, even they can't really do a whole lot, practically speaking. China cuts off the food/fuel/aid, and more people will just starve.

Short of some kind of coup, which is unlikely given that North Korea is the most hermetic country in the world, this really won't end well. The other thing is that it's not like North Korea needs an advanced military force on par with NATO or even Russia/China/India. If it can blow up a few cities in the South or maybe even Japan, and cause huge refugee problems in China, there's precious few cards that can be played.

[KevanG]

Personally I like the fact this threads been around for such a long time and nothings really happened and the fact that the 2nd topic is North Korea is starting crap again.

[Paradoxium]

Would they? I was of the belief that China is only providing North Korea with just enough aid so that refugees wouldn't be flooding into northern China. If war broke out in either Korea, they'd be deluged with refugees.

I can't see how they're in any way pleased with this recent development. It's not like North Korea is actually giving China anything like the US is. AFAIC, they'd be trying to avoid a war even more than the US is.

I have no idea what is up with North Korea. While I may not agree with China's information or human rights policies (to say the least), they do give their companies and economy a fighting chance. What I've read of North Korea, it's basically China's paranoid side x1000000 without any of the good stuff. It's like their government is a brainwashed cult that unfortunately has access to a bunch of weapons.
I was talking about a war turning South Korea into a rat hole regardless of the outcome. I think the NorKs are just crazy or at best "crazy" in the "Nixon" kind of way. Besides you read this article? Sounds plausible to me, power hungry douchebag trying to get street cred:

North Korean dictator-in-waiting linked to deadly artillery attack (http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-korean-dictatorinwaiting-linked-to-deadly-artillery-attack-20101123-185p1.html)

That said I am pretty certain China also supplied the NorKs with the centrifuges and tech. It's not very hard to construct a gun style nuke as oppose to a ICBM. Hence my Seoul comment.

Now what the hell is going on in China's mind is another matter itself.

[Paradoxium]

Anyone seen the FPS Game "Homefront", THQ released a trailer before this **** went down.

Talk about comedic timing.

D5yyWZ2Z6Ps

[Anita18]

Anita while that sounds good at the moment think of the problems that would arise after a China controlled North Korea.

The Chinese have a long history of racism and oppression. The North Korean people would hate the Chinese and the Chinese would have another Taiwan or Burma on their hands but even worse.

North Koreans are so indoctrinated that mass suicides wouldn't be surprising. Think the fascist Japan circa 1943 only way poorer, incapable, and 10X more insane/inane.

China really doesn't want another asian country to deal with.
I'm not too familiar with Burma, but my grandparents were Chinese nationals who fled to Taiwan after the Communists took over. It's a delicate political balance as well, but at least nobody's beating their chests over how badass they are. It's a pretty sane situation overall and Taiwan isn't liable to do anything rash and stupid.

Taiwan, for all intents and purposes, is independent of China. It's just unspoken because of the "One China" pride thing. Which certainly is better than nothing...

North Korea is just a sad situation overall. Talk about a government utterly failing their people. If anyone tried to overthrow the current dictatorship and start over, the media would probably demand the public to commit suicide, as you said. But something has to be done. The future generations of native North Koreans will be just as oppressed as the past generations if nothing is done. Well, besides the fact that they're really no help to anyone politically. I'm not talking about another war like the one we had to overthrow Saddam. :oldrazz:

I was talking about a war turning South Korea into a rat hole regardless of the outcome. I think the NorKs are just crazy or at best "crazy" in the "Nixon" kind of way. Besides you read this article? Sounds plausible to me, power hungry douchebag trying to get street cred:

North Korean dictator-in-waiting linked to deadly artillery attack (http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-korean-dictatorinwaiting-linked-to-deadly-artillery-attack-20101123-185p1.html)

That said I am pretty certain China also supplied the NorKs with the centrifuges and tech. It's not very hard to construct a gun style nuke as oppose to a ICBM. Hence my Seoul comment.

Now what the hell is going on in China's mind is another matter itself.
Yeah that makes no sense if China really does supply North Korea with weapons. With the parenting anology, that's like someone supplying their kid with a gun and now there's no leadership because they're afraid of the kid that they gave the damn weapon to in the first place. :funny:

I think China is really stuck because of their proximity to North Korea. It wouldn't surprise me if North Korea threatened to starve their people more and thus send more refugees over the Chinese border if they didn't get weapons....

[hippie_hunter]

It actually does make sense for the Chinese to supply North Korea. They want the Korean Peninsula to remain destabalised because they know that a unified Korea would be under the control of Seoul, just like how unified Germany was under control of West Germany. A unified Korea would put an American military alliance right on their border, just like how Russia fears NATO on their borders.

That and they don't want to deal with a refugee problem.

[Dr. Evil]

It actually does make sense for the Chinese to supply North Korea. They want the Korean Peninsula to remain destabalised because they know that a unified Korea would be under the control of Seoul, just like how unified Germany was under control of West Germany. A unified Korea would put an American military alliance right on their border, just like how Russia fears NATO on their borders.

That and they don't want to deal with a refugee problem.

Speaking of NATO and Russia.....NATO wants Russia to be involved in the planned Missile Defense. Russian President Medvedev (aka Putin's Puppet) I believe attended the NATO Summit this weekend.

[Anita18]

It actually does make sense for the Chinese to supply North Korea. They want the Korean Peninsula to remain destabalised because they know that a unified Korea would be under the control of Seoul, just like how unified Germany was under control of West Germany. A unified Korea would put an American military alliance right on their border, just like how Russia fears NATO on their borders.

That and they don't want to deal with a refugee problem.
Yeah, but give them food aid and stuff like that, offer them help with their economy. Bail them out economically if need be. But don't give them long-range weapons. That's like giving a flamethrower to a pyromaniac.

Everyone knows that if North Korea starts something with South Korea, the US will have to step in militarily and China wouldn't be so stupid to want that to happen.

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah, but give them food aid and stuff like that, offer them help with their economy. Bail them out economically if need be. But don't give them long-range weapons. That's like giving a flamethrower to a pyromaniac.
The mere existence of North Korea creates a destabilized Korean Peninsula. China bailing them out economically and giving them financial, food, and military aid allows North Korea to survive way past their expiration date.

Everyone knows that if North Korea starts something with South Korea, the US will have to step in militarily and China wouldn't be so stupid to want that to happen.
I think China's strategy is a massive gamble that North Korea will just keep the Korean Peninsula destabalized with their attacks on South Korea, but won't do anything stupid enough to have the South Korea's declare war on North Korea. China knows that the #1 priority of North Korea is survival.

[hippie_hunter]

Speaking of NATO and Russia.....NATO wants Russia to be involved in the planned Missile Defense. Russian President Medvedev (aka Putin's Puppet) I believe attended the NATO Summit this weekend.

This is the strategy the United States needs to take with China on Korea. I think that the United States needs to convince China that a unified Korea will not be a puppet of the United States.

China would be happy to know that they won't have a US puppet on their borders. And having China in the process of reunifying Korea would also calm those fears.

Korea would be happy because even though they recognize that American presence is necessary due to North Korea, they don't like having the American military stationed on their homeland. Without North Korea, there really is no need for American troops in Korea at all.

And it would benefit the United States as well because now is the time for the United States and Europe to practice austerity. Without North Korea, the United States would save billions of dollars in not having to pay North Korea in blackmail, having a military presence in Korea, etc.

[redhawk23]

:dry:The draft will defintely not be needed. If NK would dare to do that they know the US will take immediate drastic action.

America will not hesitate to use their smart nuclear weapons on them.

Last time a military base got attacked from a foreign force the US gave them two servings of nuclear porridge.


actually lets at least hesitate for the love of god, there are way better ways of going about ending the conflict quickly.

[redhawk23]

Whats crazy about all of this is this starts up almost 60 years to the day that my grandfather was drafted in preparation for the Korean War.

[Thundercrack85]

No one is going to start a nuclear war over North Korea (well, except maybe North Korea) it's too close to Russia and China.

[Anita18]

The mere existence of North Korea creates a destabilized Korean Peninsula. China bailing them out economically and giving them financial, food, and military aid allows North Korea to survive way past their expiration date.

I think China's strategy is a massive gamble that North Korea will just keep the Korean Peninsula destabalized with their attacks on South Korea, but won't do anything stupid enough to have the South Korea's declare war on North Korea. China knows that the #1 priority of North Korea is survival.
I don't quite understand your reasoning.

Yes, China wants North Korea to exist because they're paranoid about South Korea and the US. That wouldn't be a problem in itself on the international politics side of things (the humanitarian side is another thing entirely) if the leaders over there didn't do stupid things like attack other countries. North Korea doesn't have to attack South Korea to exist. Just being there is good enough. Be there and mind their own business.

If North Korea gets itself into trouble, China is politically obligated to support them. The thing I don't get about North Korea is their adamant need to beat their chests and assert their military might. Other countries would just leave them alone if they left other countries alone. The starving, indoctrinated people is tragic, but if they kept to themselves, other countries wouldn't have good enough reason to simply invade and take them over.

Now with this political theater, there IS an excuse, and the humanitarian side would only ensure international support for it. That's the part I don't understand about North Korea. They have no real allies (I certainly don't think China is backing them because they like them), no power of their own. Why are they sabotaging themselves?

[craigdbfan]

:dry:


actually lets at least hesitate for the love of god, there are way better ways of going about ending the conflict quickly.

Based on history every time we've had an "unprecedented" foreign attack we've respond in either occupation, tearing it up from the inside by installing puppet governments, nuking, some form of bombing or other incredibly intelligent strategies that has kept the US in relative dominance.

North Korea doesn't have any natural resource that we need so occupation is off the list.

The US will use various types of smart weaponry. If North Korea keeps attacking South Korea or gets Japan and the US involved, you bet your life the US will use advance missile tech.



No one is going to start a nuclear war over North Korea (well, except maybe North Korea) it's too close to Russia and China.

Doesn't necessarily have to be nuclear. If anything North Korea might just be able to rattle things up enough to have the US/NATO display some advanced weaponry not introduced or known to the public.

The amount of money that goes into the defense department is astonishing. Along with the wealth and influence carried by the companies who invest in war weaponry.

[hippie_hunter]

I don't quite understand your reasoning.
It's a very complicated policy.

Yes, China wants North Korea to exist because they're paranoid about South Korea and the US. That wouldn't be a problem in itself on the international politics side of things (the humanitarian side is another thing entirely) if the leaders over there didn't do stupid things like attack other countries. North Korea doesn't have to attack South Korea to exist. Just being there is good enough. Be there and mind their own business.
North Korea can't just simply mind their own business in order to survive. The only way they can surivive is with their nuclear program and be constantly beligerant. Without the threat of attack, the United States and South Korea wouldn't give in to their demands of aid and whatnot.

If North Korea gets itself into trouble, China is politically obligated to support them. The thing I don't get about North Korea is their adamant need to beat their chests and assert their military might. Other countries would just leave them alone if they left other countries alone. The starving, indoctrinated people is tragic, but if they kept to themselves, other countries wouldn't have good enough reason to simply invade and take them over.

Now with this political theater, there IS an excuse, and the humanitarian side would only ensure international support for it. That's the part I don't understand about North Korea. They have no real allies (I certainly don't think China is backing them because they like them), no power of their own. Why are they sabotaging themselves?

Is, "THIS IS NORTH KOREA!" a sufficient answer. Regular logic does not apply to them.

[Anita18]

Is, "THIS IS NORTH KOREA!" a sufficient answer. Regular logic does not apply to them.
Works for me. I was wondering if it was just me being confused about this. :funny:

[8wid]

Well at the end of any armed conflict in favor of the south, at least Korea will be a united country for the first time since 1905.

[Alex The Great]

So what's happening with that US Army base? Will they stay and defend? I would doubt. If they did, it wouldn't be surprising if NK says that is an act of war, and declares war on America. :huh:

[Anita18]

So what's happening with that US Army base? Will they stay and defend? I would doubt. If they did, it wouldn't be surprising if NK says that is an act of war, and declares war on America. :huh:
We'd wipe them off the face of the earth before they could even send a plane out.

[Alex The Great]

I dunno. I think NK needs a sound beating. Not total annihilation

[Anita18]

I dunno. I think NK needs a sound beating. Not total annihilation
Of course. But we have the capability to do it. I have no idea what North Korea is thinking. Maybe they do have a death wish or something.

[Alex The Great]

I think they should just storm in and get rid of that lunatic government. Then let the SK (they're good guys right?) President Rule the joint

[craigdbfan]

It wouldn't go nearly as smoothly.

The saying "easier said than done" couldn't apply more.

North Koreans are incredibly indoctrinated with intense "love your leader forever" and "death to the enemy" propaganda daily.

And I mean intense.

http://www.nikopopp.com/NorthKoreanPropaganda/NorthKoreanPropaganda1.jpg

"When provoking a war of aggression, we will hit back, beginning with the US!"

http://www.nikopopp.com/NorthKoreanPropaganda/NorthKoreanPropaganda10.jpg

"Do not forget the US imperialist wolves!"

[Anita18]

I think they should just storm in and get rid of that lunatic government. Then let the SK (they're good guys right?) President Rule the joint
China wouldn't hear of that. They're afraid of South Korea and its Western ways. Which is why they tolerate North Korea's existence in the first place.

Rebuilding North Korea is going to be as or more painful than rebuilding East Germany. South Korea may not want to shoulder that responsibility, politically or economically.

North Korea is pretty much China's placeholder in the region, and they definitely are lesser of the two evils, so I say China should oust Kim Jong-il and install their own chosen leader. Then there wouldn't be any need for China to provide aid to an ungrateful brat who still causes trouble. :oldrazz:

[redhawk23]

Based on history every time we've had an "unprecedented" foreign attack we've respond in either occupation, tearing it up from the inside by installing puppet governments, nuking, some form of bombing or other incredibly intelligent strategies that has kept the US in relative dominance.

North Korea doesn't have any natural resource that we need so occupation is off the list.

The US will use various types of smart weaponry. If North Korea keeps attacking South Korea or gets Japan and the US involved, you bet your life the US will use advance missile tech.





Doesn't necessarily have to be nuclear. If anything North Korea might just be able to rattle things up enough to have the US/NATO display some advanced weaponry not introduced or known to the public.

The amount of money that goes into the defense department is astonishing. Along with the wealth and influence carried by the companies who invest in war weaponry.


exactly, as I've said there is absolutely no reason to resort to nukes when conventional weapons can be used in unconventional ways.

[Marx]

UPDATE: PRESIDENT OBAMA 'REAFFIRMS' PLEDGE OF SUPPORT TO SOUTH KOREA
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/23/obama-south-korea-commitment_n_787864.html

[Alex The Great]

Man, China would definitely be a pain in the ass. They could actually create an army larger (amount of soldiers anyways) than the states.

**** would get ugly

[MessiahDecoy123]

South Korea would love to re-unite. I'm sure they would be more than willing to shoulder the costs of rebuilding North Korea.

What they don't wan't is a brutal war with the North and especially not a nuclear conflict.

[MessiahDecoy123]

I don't see any advantages to China backing North Korea.

They are about to emerge as the leading world power without firing a shot. Why would they endager that by supporting an insane rogue nation?

[Alex The Great]

Aren't they allies? Economically at least? If so, they would be kind of obliged to fight with them

[Thundercrack85]

North Korea is just a buffer state for China, nothing more. They won't risk war with a superpower (America) over it. It's not worth it to them. However, they will keep North Korea around for as long as they can, but it is a growing liability. Once they become too big of a liability, China will let them go.

[Alex The Great]

Maybe they would defend NK, or at least help out, but not do anything like launching offensives

[Thundercrack85]

Maybe they would defend NK, or at least help out, but not do anything like launching offensives

Possibly, but there's not much more they can do. They have already provided the North with weapons. Anything else would be wasting money, since if it comes to war, the North Korea would cease to exist.

[Alex The Great]

I wonder if Iran would get involved. I'm sure they'd love an excuse to fight the Americans if they got involved :huh:

[Hobgoblin]

I wonder if Iran would get involved. I'm sure they'd love an excuse to fight the Americans if they got involved :huh:

Getting involved in a potential Second Korean War doesnt benefit Iran at all. Their first, second and only obsession is getting a bomb to nuke Israel. Siding with North Korea would only give the US a reason to invade/attack Iran, which they dont want as they are so close to getting a bomb.

That said, they may well love the US going to war with North Korea, as it would divert attention away from Iran.

[Anita18]

Man, China would definitely be a pain in the ass. They could actually create an army larger (amount of soldiers anyways) than the states.

**** would get ugly
They don't want to do that. They're having a great time taking our money and building iPhones. :funny:

[Alex The Great]

Yeah, you're right

Maybe they'd nuke Isreal during another Korean War?

[Hobgoblin]

They don't want to do that. They're having a great time taking our money and building iPhones. :funny:

This.

You dont go to war with your best customer.

[Hobgoblin]

Yeah, you're right

Maybe they'd nuke Isreal during another Korean War?

I think they'll try to nuke Israel the very moment that they know they have a workable bomb. They wont have a second to waste as soon as the device is functional. But they wont try to use a defective bomb either.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Why would Iran nuke Isreal without provocation?

Iran would be nuked back within seconds. They're crazy, not stupid.

Every nation has a right to defend itself. Even ones you disagree with politically.

[Hobgoblin]

Why would Iran nuke Isreal without provocation?

Iran would be nuked back within seconds. They're crazy, not stupid.

Every nation has a right to defend itself. Even ones you disagree with politically.

They realize that, and they dont care. Ever heard of the 12th imam?

[Alex The Great]

How close are they to making a bomb anyways? Couple months? Years?

[Thundercrack85]

Unfortunately rogue nations tend to band together. People should keep that in mind.

[Hobgoblin]

How close are they to making a bomb anyways? Couple months? Years?

Hard to say. Former UN Ambassador John Bolton gave Israel a time table of a few days to destroy the Iranian nuke facility in August. They didnt do it. Take that as you will.

http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/News/Article.aspx?id=185060

[Alex The Great]

Hard to say. Former UN Ambassador John Bolton gave Israel a time table of a few days to destroy the Iranian nuke facility in August. They didnt do it. Take that as you will.
Well, that sounds good :csad:

[Matt Mortem]

I think it would be best to find a diplomatic way to deal with NK. The last thing anyone wants (except a few crazies) is war. Unfortunately the Kim Jongs don't seem like the talking type. This is a slippery situation for sure

[Alex The Great]

Unfortunately, it seems inevitable that they'll be conflict. It's just a matter of when.

[hippie_hunter]

North Korea is just a buffer state for China, nothing more. They won't risk war with a superpower (America) over it. It's not worth it to them. However, they will keep North Korea around for as long as they can, but it is a growing liability. Once they become too big of a liability, China will let them go.
QFT. For a long time, it's been reported that China is getting more and more irritated with North Korea.

[jesusmagicka]

Well at the end of any armed conflict in favor of the south, at least Korea will be a united country for the first time since 1905.

yeah, then s korea will have to feed all the starving people in n. korea.

i was in korea last year. the younger people i talked too don't really feel a connection at all with the north. it would just be a large burden on them, like people on welfare over here.

[Alex The Great]

Well we can't just destroy NK. That's too many lives lost. There should never ever be another Hiroshima

[Thundercrack85]

I would be worried more for South Korea than North Korea. Seoul is North Korea's main target. Pyongyang is practically a ghost town. There's probably more statues of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il in that city than there are people.

[chaseter]

UPDATE: PRESIDENT OBAMA 'REAFFIRMS' PLEDGE OF SUPPORT TO SOUTH KOREA
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/23/obama-south-korea-commitment_n_787864.html

Good...he did exactly what I would do. Glad to see him put a firm foot down.

[Spidey-Bat]

South Korea would love to re-unite. I'm sure they would be more than willing to shoulder the costs of rebuilding North Korea.

I strongly doubt they want to take on all of the problems with North Korea.

[craigdbfan]

"The United States said Wednesday that it will dispatch an aircraft carrier to hold exercises with South Korea starting this weekend, but it stressed that the drills were planned well before North Korea shelled South Korea on Tuesday."

- CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/24/nkorea.skorea.military.fire/index.html?hpt=T2)

Oh is that so big boy. :up:

These next couple of days will be interesting to watch to say the least.

UPDATE:

Apparently 2 more burned bodies have been found and they are of two S.K civilians. North Korea has been pinned with the blame as well.

"South Korea says the burnt bodies of two male civilians have been found on an island attacked by North Korea. The South Korean Coast Guard says the two construction workers were found Wednesday.

They're believed to be in their sixties. The discovery comes a day after a frightening military skirmish between the Koreas ratcheted tensions on the peninsula to new extremes. North Korea's artillery attack on a small South Korean island near their disputed border killed at least two marines and wounded civilians in what U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called one of the "gravest incidents" since the end of the Korean War.

- The Associated Press (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hVaWDTFAvxmYUjx4Z1OGXv4e9sGQ?docId=8d6bd23eb 6b04cc183215b3f58238d2e)

[Alex The Great]

Well, I hope against hope that NK doesn't see that Aircraft Carrier and think America is attacking :csad:

[Hobgoblin]

Well, I hope against hope that NK doesn't see that Aircraft Carrier and think America is attacking :csad:

Nah. The North is used to this. Every time they act up, we send over a few ships to remind them what they are up against.

[Alex The Great]

I did not know that :o

[doih]

This.

You dont go to war with your best customer.

It's happened before though. Illogical things happen all the time.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen now or in the future, but you can't dismiss these things completely.

[Hobgoblin]

It's happened before though. Illogical things happen all the time.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen now or in the future, but you can't dismiss these things completely.

Its not impossible, just very unlikely.

[PemLam]

The shelling is a pretty serious provocation but it's not the first or last time...hell, they torpedoed and sunk a South Korean ship not too long ago and their are almost weekly incidents at the DMZ.

They do these things to try to force the South Koreans and the US to hold direct talks (not the 6 party talks the US demands) and to provide additional assistance.

I was stationed in Korea in the 90's and early 2000's and the back and forth was always the same. What's different in this circumstance is the South's reaction. Normally they don't retaliate so forcefully. Their president is very agitated about this one.

I still have friends over there and hope for everyone's sake this doesn't escalate much farther.

[Alex The Great]

Yeah, but this is different. They actually fought eachother for a bit.

[Dr. Evil]

Don't expect American military action:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_exclusive/20101124/pl_yblog_exclusive/u-s-condemns-north-korean-attack-but-military-strike-unlikely;_ylt=AslPQ.G2rkfox5dnZM3JJf6s0NUE;_ylu=X3 oDMTVhbTNpOXVtBGFzc2V0A3libG9nX2V4Y2x1c2l2ZS8yMDEw MTEyNC91LXMtY29uZGVtbnMtbm9ydGgta29yZWFuLWF0dGFjay 1idXQtbWlsaXRhcnktc3RyaWtlLXVubGlrZWx5BGNjb2RlA21v c3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMgRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2 VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDdXNjb25kZW1uc25v

[Thundercrack85]

War really isn't in anyone's best interest right now, even if they don't like the status quo. South Korea can't afford a war with the north since it would cripple their economy, and cost them heavy casualties (not even going into the unification issues). North Korea knows it can't win a war against America, and the United States already has enough problems to deal with.

[PemLam]

The shelling is a pretty serious provocation but it's not the first or last time...hell, they torpedoed and sunk a South Korean ship not too long ago and their are almost weekly incidents at the DMZ.

They do these things to try to force the South Koreans and the US to hold direct talks (not the 6 party talks the US demands) and to provide additional assistance.

I was stationed in Korea in the 90's and early 2000's and the back and forth was always the same. What's different in this circumstance is the South's reaction. Normally they don't retaliate so forcefully. Their president is very agitated about this one.

I still have friends over there and hope for everyone's sake this doesn't escalate much farther.

Yeah, but this is different. They actually fought eachother for a bit.

I know that, that's why I cited the difference between this and previous engagements.

I believe it will settle down again after a little more rambling and rhetoric from the midget up north.

[Matt]

I'd say at the very least, a few bombing runs on North Korean military targets are necessary. Jong-Il crossed a line. He killed both South Korean soldiers and civilians. Few sanctions won't cut it this time (especially since NK doesn't give a **** about them). Something needs to be done.

[Alex The Great]

I know that, that's why I cited the difference between this and previous engagements.

I believe it will settle down again after a little more rambling and rhetoric from the midget up north.
Yeah, I didn't read your post rght. My bad.

This might cool down. And it most likely will. But tensions are rising. All it takes is one screw up

[Alex The Great]

I'd say at the very least, a few bombing runs on North Korean military targets are necessary. Jong-Il crossed a line. He killed both South Korean soldiers and civilians. Few sanctions won't cut it this time (especially since NK doesn't give a **** about them). Something needs to be done.
Wait, you want America to do that, or SK? Because if it's the former, then NK will just get pissed off and declare war. It'd be over quickly (hopefully), but not before there's heavy casualties

[Matt]

I think you've got it the other way around. If South Korea does it, NK will retaliate. If the US does it, China will grandstand a little bit in the UN, but North Korea will ultimately back down. Jong-Il will not have the guts to declare war against America.

[Alex The Great]

I think you've got it the other way around. If South Korea does it, NK will retaliate. If the US does it, China will grandstand a little bit in the UN, but North Korea will ultimately back down.
I see
Jong-Il will not have the guts to declare war against America.
I dunno. Lunatics usually go all or nothing no matter what :o

[Matt]

Jong-Il may be a lunatic, but he's also a rational lunatic. He has no desire to lose the power he has. He knows war with the US would do just that. A few bombing runs from the US would send a strong message, make him think twice before trying something like this again, and avoid outright war. If he's let off the hook with a few sanctions, it'll be a matter of time before this happens again.

[Paroxysm]

Jong-Il may be a lunatic, but he's also a rational lunatic. He has no desire to lose the power he has. He knows war with the US would do just that. A few bombing runs from the US would send a strong message, make him think twice before trying something like this again, and avoid outright war. If he's let off the hook with a few sanctions, it'll be a matter of time before this happens again.

Dude, chill out with your "bombing runs". We have people on it already.

[Timstuff]

We should just give South Korea nukes, and keep it secret until everything's in place. If Kim Jung even sneezes, his palace will be a radioactive parking lot.

[PemLam]

We should just give South Korea nukes, and keep it secret until everything's in place. If Kim Jung even sneezes, his palace will be a radioactive parking lot.

Yeah, I'm sure China and the rest of Southeast Asia would love to have the radioactive cloud that was Pyongyang literally hanging over their heads. :dry:

[Timstuff]

None of our allies in that region have nukes. Our most dangerous enemy and our biggest rival do, and they are right next to each other. This is a problem that must be fixed, even if the answer ends up not being to arm South Korea and Japan. We have nuclear allies in the middle east but not east Asia, but we have nuclear enemies in both, and the only thing that is certain is that doing nothing is not going to end well.

[Matt]

I think if anyone in the reigon should be nuclear, its Japan (though I doubt they'd want to be).

[craigdbfan]

India and Pakistan have nukes and we have really good relations with the former and lukewarm relations with the latter.

The US is joining the muscle flexing I guess now that it sent the USS George Washington over to the Korean peninsula to do training exercises.

North Korea probably wont do anything. They often call America dogs but they are the ones that often bark but don't really bite.

Also people are giving North Korea way to much credit in their defense department. America does have the weaponry to destroy any missile they might want to send to the US if they even have a long range weapon that could even reach Hawaii or California which I again doubt.

Even if they do, the US knows every single locations and whereabout of their missile/nuclear facilities. The war on terror for many might show an incompetent US but thats the exact image the US wants.

If enemies with more technical prowess believe the US lost in Vietnam (we didn't win in conventual terms but we got what we were looking for) and now the situation in the middle east which also looks like a hopeless case but these proxy wars are far more than that. A lot of money and altering global image is all part of a well coordinated strategy.

Think of it as the largest chess game on a global scale. You have to foreshadow and predict. The player who can do that will always have the steady advantage.

The United States are experts at this.

[doih]

India and Pakistan have nukes and we have really good relations with the former and lukewarm relations with the latter.

The US is joining the muscle flexing I guess now that it sent the USS George Washington over to the Korean peninsula to do training exercises.

North Korea probably wont do anything. They often call America dogs but they are the ones that often bark but don't really bite.

Also people are giving North Korea way to much credit in their defense department. America does have the weaponry to destroy any missile they might want to send to the US if they even have a long range weapon that could even reach Hawaii or California which I again doubt.

Even if they do, the US knows every single locations and whereabout of their missile/nuclear facilities. The war on terror for many might show an incompetent US but thats the exact image the US wants.

If enemies with more technical prowess believe the US lost in Vietnam (we didn't win in conventual terms but we got what we were looking for) and now the situation in the middle east which also looks like a hopeless case but these proxy wars are far more than that. A lot of money and altering global image is all part of a well coordinated strategy.

Think of it as the largest chess game on a global scale. You have to foreshadow and predict. The player who can do that will always have the steady advantage.

The United States are experts at this.

er...how did the US get what it was looking for in Vietnam? Vietnam fell into communist rule...the US had started to win the war but lost the war on the home front --> Vietnam turning communist after US withdraws.

I don't think people are really overrating North Korea's forces. But they do have enough conventional + potential nuclear weapons to damage much of South Korea and possibly Japan.

[craigdbfan]

er...how did the US get what it was looking for in Vietnam? Vietnam fell into communist rule...the US had started to win the war but lost the war on the home front --> Vietnam turning communist after US withdraws.

I don't think people are really overrating North Korea's forces. But they do have enough conventional + potential nuclear weapons to damage much of South Korea and possibly Japan.

Because despite the North Vietnamese (with the aid of the Soviets and China) technically winning they ended up uniting them in a less totalitarian environment. Both the South and North were already being ruled by terrible governments even before the US, Russia, and China got involved in their global game of dominance.

Anyway the US ended backing out because they realized that staying there was pointless. After this relations started getting somewhat better with China and the Soviets as is evident from their withdrawal in Afghanistan against the Mujahideen funded by the US, UK and various other Arab nations.

So when I say the US didn't really lose, I mean they didn't really lose. I guess you could also say the Russian "lost" their Afghanistan campaign in 1988 but they didn't really.

Same tactics employed in by the Soviets and Chinese in Vietnam only with the Americans and the UK backing the Mujahideen putting pressure on Soviet soldiers which eventually led towards them "backing" out.

Its all pressure games and how long the opposing force can take of it and you move your pieces when appropriate for the next best strategic move.

In the long term we now see that the US, China and Russia have still maintained their powerful standing in the world. It was all solved peacefully in the end but it took several proxy wars and chest thumping before they could get to it.

[doih]

Ok, I see what you mean now.

I suppose the only good thing about all the wars that took place during the Cold War was that none of them escalated to major confrontations. Cold comfort for the millions of people who died during those wars though.

[craigdbfan]

Cold comfort for the millions of people who died during those wars though.

So true.

Peace and the entire idea of it is slowly starting to diminish in terms of everyone achieving this, as it stands now it is completely disproportionate but I'm lucky to say that we are on the much luckier side of the spectrum and should always be thankful but to also understand that its all come at the expense of someone else. Not to sound bleak but humans are becoming more and more detached from the integral meaning of being alive and the responsibilities that are entitled with the "supposed" intellect.

This intellect though is being misused to create pain,unbalance,confusion, and a constant struggle to maintain the essentials, yet not living at all due to all the self created problems we impose on ourselves.

But thats the way of existence in general. Turbulent it's always been.

[Timstuff]

I think if anyone in the reigon should be nuclear, its Japan (though I doubt they'd want to be).

If Japan doesn't want nukes they'd better hurry the eff up with those giant robots I keep hearing about...

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6084/gundamd.jpg

Kim Jung Il will wet himself when he sees a Gundam marching towards his palace.

[hippie_hunter]

Jimmy Carter: North Korea wants to negotiate

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/23/AR2010112305808.html

All I have to say is **** you Carter. It's a flat out damn shame how you turned one of the best post-Presidential careers into a god damn embarassment.

[Great1]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTOE6AO02K20101125

[Alex The Great]

This keeps getting better and better

[craigdbfan]

Won't stop the US and S. Korea to do their Top Gun routine with the USS G.Washington on Sunday.

This is only escalating with N.Korea now saying they'll attack if S.Korea shows signs of "military provocation".

[Alex The Great]

This keeps getting better and better

[Marx]

Jimmy Carter: North Korea wants to negotiate

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/23/AR2010112305808.html

All I have to say is **** you Carter. It's a flat out damn shame how you turned one of the best post-Presidential careers into a god damn embarassment.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTOE6AO02K20101125

...so President Carter claims that North Korea wants to 'negotiate' despite new warnings of attacks against South Korea? Does. Not. Compute.

[craigdbfan]

I think everyone should just put the invisible "ignore" button on Carter.

I mean that in the nicest way possible.

[Matt]

Carter is simply trying desperately to stay relevant. He should take cues from Bush Senior. Stay relevant through your philantrophy, not your politics.

[Thundercrack85]

This is North Korea's idea of negotiating. It's insane, but it's worked for them in the past.

[Great1]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/US-warship-s-arrival-sends-message-to-China-on-Korea/H1-Article1-631063.aspx
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11838750

[craigdbfan]

South Korea military says artillery fired heard in North

"South Korea's military said sounds of distant artillery fire were heard on Friday from within North Korea, but no shells landed in South Korean territory."

- reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTOE6AP04D20101126)

[Hobgoblin]

"North Korea is our East Germany," said one senior Chinese official in Beijing over the summer. "Do you remember what happened when East Germany collapsed? The Soviet Union fell."
Interesting way of looking at it. I'm not sure its that simple, but its a look inside the Chinese mindset on the issue.

[craigdbfan]

China warns against military acts as U.S. ship nears (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBGNQME65620101126)

China on Friday warned against any military acts in its exclusive economic zone, in response to Washington's decision to send an aircraft carrier near a South Korean island recently shelled by North Korea.

"We oppose any unilateral military act conducted in China's exclusive economic zone without approval", China's Foreign Ministry said in an online response to a question regarding China's position on the U.S. carrier George Washington participating in joint naval exercises in the region.

The exclusive economic zone is a sea zone up to 200 nautical miles from a country's coast.

This is getting heavy. :dry:

[DarKJediKnight]

http://www.thetimes.kr/data/photos/201008/pp_8815_1_1282736677.jpg

I'm just wondering where these lovely ladies'll go if ever... not that I'm wanting something to happen in the Korean lands... Okay just don't mind this post. :csad:

[PemLam]

China warns against military acts as U.S. ship nears (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBGNQME65620101126)



This is getting heavy. :dry:

China ALWAYS puts out quotes like that after N. Korea does something stupid. They do it publicly so N. Korea sees it and then China quietly talks to the US and works stuff out.

This incident was unfortunate but it's not that big.

[Paradoxium]

No moar Lee Hyori.

[Donut]

http://www.thetimes.kr/data/photos/201008/pp_8815_1_1282736677.jpg

I'm just wondering where these lovely ladies'll go

My house :woot:

[Alex The Great]

I'm starting to think this ****'s about to get real :csad:

[PemLam]

http://www.thetimes.kr/data/photos/201008/pp_8815_1_1282736677.jpg

I'm just wondering where these lovely ladies'll go if ever... not that I'm wanting something to happen in the Korean lands... Okay just don't mind this post. :csad:

There will always be a mama san that needs more "juicy girls". Can't go into a friggin bar down there without having them swoop in on you like zombies.

[Figs]

I'm starting to think this ****'s about to get real :csad:

Same here and it honestly has me scared for the first time in a long time. Only two things I can think of will come out of this, we go down economically or go into a great depression due to getting involved in another war when we have nooooo money. The second is getting involved in a larger war with China since they seem to be backing N Korea like a bunch of *******s and we get owned...because we most likely would against China.

[Alex The Great]

Well, China might kind have to fight along with NK. They may not want to, but they might have to if they want their communist regime to survive.

Also, what the hell is the UN doing about this? This right up their ally, right?

[Matt Mortem]

The UN is kind of impotent anymore IMO. All I foresee them doing is more sanctions which just won't work on these guys. If China allies themselves with NK in a war against us, I also fear Iran will find some way to join the fray. This is a massive problem. I am extremely concerned

[Raiden]

The UN is kind of impotent anymore IMO. All I foresee them doing is more sanctions which just won't work on these guys. If China allies themselves with NK in a war against us, I also fear Iran will find some way to join the fray. This is a massive problem. I am extremely concerned

I think the timing is interesting. Is NK doing this now because they don't think the US is in a position to get involved in another war, so they picked to pick a fight against SK?

[Alex The Great]

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/ea_china0383_05_07.asp

Iran could join in. Since the three are allied

[Matt Mortem]

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/ea_china0383_05_07.asp

Iran could join in. Since the three are allied

God help us all. That's not a war any of us need to be fighting. You can guarantee that Nukes will fly if this war starts and there will be no happy ending.

[Alex The Great]

You know what they say:

WWI was fought with sticks and stones
WWII was fought with guns grenades and bombs
WWIII will be fought with Nukes
WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones

:csad:

[Dr. Evil]

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/ea_china0383_05_07.asp

Iran could join in. Since the three are allied

That was dated in May, before China voted in favor of United Nations sanctions towards Iran. It would not make sense now for China to support them militarily when they voted in favor of sanctions towards Iran's Revolutionary Guard.

I see the Russians playing peacemaker for some reason.

[craigdbfan]

China ALWAYS puts out quotes like that after N. Korea does something stupid. They do it publicly so N. Korea sees it and then China quietly talks to the US and works stuff out.

This incident was unfortunate but it's not that big.

Differences are the current economic state of Europe and the US oppose to China. Did you know the Chinese have one of the fastest growing middle class in the world?

Also DPKR attacked and killed civilians this time something that hasn't been done since the armistice. I'd say its very different this time along with the amount of vessels the US is sending over there and the time table they've chosen to do this "training exercise" on Sunday.

Far quicker response than any other incident involving the N.K/S.K since the Korean war ended. This isn't going to fizzle as the US has made it very clear they are not going to stop their joint training in the yellow sea. The Chinese won't personally attack the US but do not forget that N. Korea is an old proxy state for China. These third parties are used to duke it out as time has so merrily shown us.

If you've been following currency value in market watch and have been following the basic fall of the Eurozone you'd know this is a little different. Portugal getting pushed into accepting bailout where they are trying to refuse it. Debt being pushed around all over the globe like a hot potato.

This is all a big banking game and when powerful bankers get pissed off **** will fly.

Things don't always get talked out when there's a very nasty undercurrent due to all these financial breakdowns.

[Alex The Great]

I kind of think Russia could become an unexpected centerpiece of such a war. Russia is loaded with resources and have plenty of nukes just lying around. I'm sure NK and Iran would love to get their hands on ready-to-go nukes.

Of course, Russia has the perfect defense. Winter. Every time someone tries to invade Russia, Winter kills their army (Happened to Napoleon and the Nazis)

[Matt Mortem]

I hope Russia sides with us. They would really be a valuable ally if the **** hits the fan

[Dr. Evil]

I hope Russia sides with us. They would really be a valuable ally if the **** hits the fan

I think they will likely remain neutral and call for talks between the two sides. I don't see another war happening though. In fact, I could see Russia playing peacemaker, if only to help Vladimir Putin regain the Presidency from his puppet, Medvedev. If tensions all of a sudden die down in a week or so, it's probably due to the Russians.

[Hobgoblin]

You know what they say:

WWI was fought with sticks and stones
WWII was fought with guns grenades and bombs
WWIII will be fought with Nukes
WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones

:csad:
Actually the quote is "I know not what weapons will be used in WW3 but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."

Oh and WW1 was fought with submarines, airplanes, poison gas and machine guns. A little more advanced than sticks and stones.

I still say we need to stay calm and rational. NK is a whiny brat that likes to have temper tantrums to get attention. They do this all the time.

[Matt Mortem]

With any luck the international community will really rally together let NK now that if they keep it out we'll turn em into a parking lot

[Dr. Evil]

With any luck the international community will really rally together let NK now that if they keep it out we'll turn em into a parking lot

Maybe if the International community is Russia, China and the United States. Not Europe, with the shape they are currently in.

[craigdbfan]

At this point the ball is on China/N.K.

Come Sunday we'll find out if their poorly fed Rottweiler will actually do anything to the USS Washington and the S.K navy.

That's what everyone is waiting for.

Maybe if the International community is Russia, China and the United States. Not Europe, with the shape they are currently in.

Eurozone is a mess right now.

[Matt Mortem]

If NK has the balls to fire on us it'll be a whole 'nother ball game.

[Dr. Evil]

North Korea will probably back down.

[Matt Mortem]

I would say so. They have to know it's absolute suicide to engage the US in a military conflict

[craigdbfan]

If anything they'll wait until all this cools down, do one more stupid shelling that doesn't hurt anyone but lands on S.K water or disputed water between the two sparking talks with the US and the UN for more aide.

Like many have already said N.Korea is no stranger in doing this. This allows their owner (China) to spend less on them and put that burden on the US and the UN.

Forcing everyone to pitch in and help Lil' Kim but China. Nice way of forcing others to maintain your buffer zone.

[Figs]

I would say so. They have to know it's absolute suicide to engage the US in a military conflict

While true, wouldn't another war for the US bankrupt us or possibly put us in a great depression? That's one of my worries.

[Alex The Great]

I think NK would attack America only if Iran or China backs them up. Especially the latter. China would give America a hard time, that's for sure

[Hobgoblin]

While true, wouldn't another war for the US bankrupt us or possibly put us in a great depression? That's one of my worries.

There is a good possibility. But the whole crux of the situation, for North Korea, is its obsession with self preservation at any cost. Goading the US into a war would be completely counter productive. A Second Korean War serves neither side.

[craigdbfan]

While true, wouldn't another war for the US bankrupt us or possibly put us in a great depression? That's one of my worries.

Wars depending on how its approached can actually stimulate an economy or cripple it.

Thanks to war we were actually able to rebound nicely after the great depression. Thats right WWII was great in the long run for us in terms of helping our economy.

[Alex The Great]

Actually the quote is "I know not what weapons will be used in WW3 but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."

Oh and WW1 was fought with submarines, airplanes, poison gas and machine guns. A little more advanced than sticks and stones.

I still say we need to stay calm and rational. NK is a whiny brat that likes to have temper tantrums to get attention. They do this all the time.
Ah my bad.

Yeah I know that they used guns and all that back in WWI. But it was pretty prmimitve. I think the soldiers only got like one gun

[Figs]

I think NK would attack America only if

Iran or China backs them up. Especially the latter. China would give America a hard time, that's for sure

Well that's what i'm worried about, if they decide to back them, which is a very high possibility.

Wars depending on how its approached can actually stimulate an economy or cripple it.

Thanks to war we were actually able to rebound nicely after the great depression. Thats right WWII was great in the long run for us in terms of helping our economy.

I do remember that in regards to WWII and the great depression. I just wonder if it will work this time as well since we're already at war in the middle east which is costing a lot.

There is a good possibility. But the whole crux of the situation, for North Korea, is its obsession with self preservation at any cost. Goading the US into a war would be completely counter productive. A Second Korean War serves neither side.

Good point, but as Alex the Great mentioned, China and Iran could always back them up and China has such a massive army they could easily be the major force against us in the war as opposed to just NK.

[craigdbfan]

The reason why there's been almost no word on Russian or Iranian involvement is because they are playing the roles of spectators for the moment.

This entire situation is far more personal and it involves an intricate banking crisis that is currently breaking out within the USA, China, and various parts of Europe breaking the Euro and seeing the UK putting pressure on Portugal on asking for a bailout that it fells that its being pressured into taking.

What we are witnessing is another "cold" war type of preeminent scrimmage and a lot of chest thumping going on at the Yellow sea to change trends in the global economy.

People aren't first of interest but rather the insinuations and laws that allows for a controlled flow of money to keep things "working" for the people is seen as far more important for the United States along with all the other players in this game of survival.

[Figs]

This entire situation is far more personal and it involves an intricate banking crisis that is currently breaking out within the USA, China, and various parts of Europe breaking the Euro and seeing the UK putting pressure on Portugal on asking for a bailout that it fells that its being pressured into taking.

What we are witnessing is another "cold" war type of preeminent scrimmage and a lot of chest thumping going on at the Yellow sea to change trends in the global economy.

In regards to the banking crisis, correct me if i'm wrong but aren't China, NK and Iran some of the very few countries that aren't in debt to the world banks or some other major country?

[Dr. Evil]

China is in a bind over this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_koreas_clash_china_analysis

[craigdbfan]

In regards to the banking crisis, correct me if i'm wrong but aren't China, NK and Iran some of the very few countries that aren't in debt to the world banks or some other major country?

The NK aren't in debt to the world banks because they are ostracized and survive off China's teat for payment for their efforts and support they gave the Chinese during the Cold War. So true they both are free of debt in that sense.

Iran also has a ton of sanctions but maintains a rather stable and relatively well off public due their enormous reserves in natural gas and oil. So they also maintain themselves relatively debt free in contrast to the US.

The US and Europe however can't say the same. Which is why I mentioned that certain European countries are going through economic turmoil while the US keeps on its journey to stabilize its own economy by several means.

I'd rather not go into it but you can be reassured that the US and China are trying to fix rather than break and cause further damage. Debt is being diluted in ways that are rather puzzling and alarming to watch at the moment.

[Alex The Great]

**** Me (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/897669--new-korean-war-could-involve-canada-documents-reveal)

OTTAWA—If war breaks out on the Korean peninsula, Canada could become embroiled due to a half-century-old United Nations military alliance, federal documents reveal.
Canada’s military obligations in the volatile region are outlined in a briefing note prepared for Defence Minister Peter MacKay shortly after North Korea detonated a nuclear device last year.
The note by the defence department’s policy branch, which was obtained by The Canadian Press, says the UN alliance could be used to generate an international fighting force if war erupts.
North Korea ratcheted up its war rhetoric Friday following its deadly artillery barrage of a South Korean island Tuesday.
Because Canada was one of the combatants in the Korean War, it became part of an organization known as the United Nations Command — or UNC — following the 1953 armistice that ended three years of war between North and South Korea.
“Recent tensions have caused ADM (Pol) to review Canada’s military obligations on the Korean peninsula if armed hostilities were to erupt,” the memo reads.
“The UNC structure would be used as a means of force-generating and receiving and tasking any contributions that UNC Sending States may choose to contribute in the event of a crisis.”
Canada was one 16 countries that took part in fighting the Korean War and all signed the July 27, 1953, armistice that paused three years of hostilities. North and South Korea have remained technically at war since then, but the armistice has been supervised by a UN military commission along the 243-kilometre long Demilitarized Zone between the two countries.
As the briefing note outlines, the main “fighting formation” that would take the lead in any new conflict is the joint United States-South Korea Combined Forces Command. But that joint command “includes under its strategic organizational umbrella the legacy United Nations Command (UNC).”
Canada remains a member of the UNC because it was one of the 15 “Sending States” that supplied troops to the Korean conflict, the memo says.
Paul Evans, the director of the Institute (http://forums.superherohype.com/#) of Asian Research at University of British Columbia, said he doesn’t believe the current situation will become a full-blown military crisis. If it does, he said, “it would be difficult to use the UNC structure in the event of a conflict except as an initial advice.”
That’s because the UN’s role would be minimized by fact that Russia and China wield vetoes as permanent members of the all-powerful Security (http://forums.superherohype.com/#) Council, said Evans.
“I have a hunch that the UN role, whatever its formalities are now through the military commission and other things, are likely to be superseded almost immediately by a coalition of the willing that would be led by the United States and South Korea.”
Federal officials say there have been no “asks” to Canada for military support in the region.
The American aircraft carrier George Washington and the South Korean navy are to conduct a joint training exercise on Sunday. North Korea said Friday the exercise was a provocation that could push the region to the “brink of war.”
Evans said it is not inconceivable that a Canadian navy warship could find itself operating in South Asian waters in the coming months, either as an add on to any continued U.S. navy presence or part of a stepped up international effort to interdict North Korean vessels.
Canada announced last month it was adopting a “controlled engagement” policy, ending all official bilateral contacts between Ottawa and Kim Jong Il’s regime in Pyongyang.
The government said the move was in retaliation for the fact a North Korean torpedo sank a South Korean warship this past March, killing 46 sailors. Canada contributed three military experts to the international investigation that eventually pointed the finger at North Korea.
The briefing note indicates Canada’s military footprint in the Korean Peninsula today is very light. Canada’s defence attaché to Seoul, a colonel, and his assistant, a sergeant, represent the country on the UNC. Canada’s defence attaché in Tokyo represents Canada at the UNC’s “rear” headquarters in Japan. And Canada also contributes a major to the Korean Army Staff College.
The censored briefing note does not elaborate on what would follow if a “crisis” erupted and an international military coalition had to be created.
“I don’t think there’s going to be any place for a Canadian military role. Canada, of course, has offered its political support, affirmed its alliance with South Korea,” said Mark Sedra, the head of the global and human security program at the Centre for International Governance Innovation in Waterloo, Ont.
“That would require a big escalation of the situation if you were to see a multinational force commitment. If we see that happening, we’ve really seen a deterioration of the situation.”
Prime Minister Stephen Harper “strongly condemned” North Korea’s Tuesday artillery attack, calling it “the latest in a series of aggressive and provocative actions” by the Communist dictatorship.

Can't we declare neutrality or something? :csad:

[C. Lee]

Ah my bad.

Yeah I know that they used guns and all that back in WWI. But it was pretty prmimitve. I think the soldiers only got like one gun

But lot's of pretty pretty bullets.

[Alex The Great]

But lot's of pretty pretty bullets.
Who did you fight for in the Napoleonic War?

[C. Lee]

Who did you fight for in the Napoleonic War?

At that time I was busy in 'merica fightin' Injuns.

[enterthemadness]

Let Asia deal with this...

[Alex The Great]

Can't be done

[hippie_hunter]

In regards to the banking crisis, correct me if i'm wrong but aren't China, NK and Iran some of the very few countries that aren't in debt to the world banks or some other major country?

North Korea is essentially bankrupt. While they may not be crippled with debt, it's not like they have any money to begin with.

[Alex The Great]

Yeah, but China's doing fine

I think

[Marx]

I would say so. They have to know it's absolute suicide to engage the US in a military conflict

Rational thoughts do not seem to be a part of North Korea's vocabulary.

[Alex The Great]

Well, if NK wants to make a move against the US and/or SK, the next few days are perfect for them to strike.

Will they? I doubt it, but I wouldn't be surprised either

[Figs]

North Korea is essentially bankrupt. While they may not be crippled with debt, it's not like they have any money to begin with.

Well that's a tad reassuring.

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah, but China's doing fine

I think

China has one of the fastest growing economies in the world, has the largest cash reserves in the world, has one of the fastest growing middle classes in the world, and is the debtee of the United States and Europe.

It has some problems for sure, such as being far too reliant on exports and all this debt holding might end up biting them in the ass someday, but right now, they certainly are doing fine.

[Kelly]

China is about to start slowing down its economy, in fact has already started doing just that....which means, they will buy less and less of our debt....

Sucks for us.

[Alex The Great]

So Everyone Loses? :huh:

[Great1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/27/world/asia/27korea.html?_r=1

[Alex The Great]

Damn it China, pick a side :csad::cmad::csad:

[doih]

China has one of the fastest growing economies in the world, has the largest cash reserves in the world, has one of the fastest growing middle classes in the world, and is the debtee of the United States and Europe.

It has some problems for sure, such as being far too reliant on exports and all this debt holding might end up biting them in the ass someday, but right now, they certainly are doing fine.

if you owe the bank 1 million dollars, it's your problem, if you owe the bank 100 billion dollars....

Also there could be serious property/other bubbles about to burst in China.

[Timstuff]

The only way we'll get out of debt is by reducing the size of government without significantly lowering our taxes. And that won't be very popular, since many people don't want to give up their government cheese and expensive foreign policies, and in general people hate taxes. They want free stuff without having to pay for it, and unfortunately we do not have any laws on the books preventing our legislators from spending money that we don't have. In other words, politicians can keep increasing our debt as long as it gets them re-elected by the people who don't care about the long term debt problem, and there's nothing we can do right now to prevent it.

What I want to know, is what is going to happen when the people who own our debt like China decide it's time to collect? A few generations from now, mandarin could be a required class in our schools since our government will be in Beijing instead of Washington DC...

[Alex The Great]

I agree to a point. China will want that money eventually. They might have to force it out of 'em. Hopefully, it doesn't get violent

[Franklin Richards]

Or we can do what we did in the 90's. Raise taxes. Cut waste. Manufacture a market bubble ala dot.com. Regulate economic loopholes.


The hard part will be having a working culture like the Baby Boomers were at the tail end of their work cycle.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[hippie_hunter]

if you owe the bank 1 million dollars, it's your problem, if you owe the bank 100 billion dollars....

Also there could be serious property/other bubbles about to burst in China.

The massive amounts of debt that China owns of both the United States and Europe just isn't healthy. I really think that, that will be China's downfall, they'll own so much debt that just can't be paid.

[hippie_hunter]

Or we can do what we did in the 90's. Raise taxes. Cut waste. Manufacture a market bubble ala dot.com. Regulate economic loopholes.


The hard part will be having a working culture like the Baby Boomers were at the tail end of their work cycle.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

The economic policies of the 90's is what got us in this mess we're in right now.

[craigdbfan]

Really trying to stay away from cryptic hyperbole but there needs to be a gigantic shift in overall ideology in approach to our means to survive on this planet. Meaning the entire world would need to go along with it meaning this has very little to no chance of ever happening under the current conditions that be.

This idea of updating old broken governments and supporting an unstable form of an economic structure that is "free" in the sense of amount of manipulation that is allowed to go on, this degradation which relies on "bailouts" furthering the illness by providing pain relief but no actual cure or solution. It has been toyed around with to the point of incredibility.

[Franklin Richards]

The economic policies of the 90's is what got us in this mess we're in right now.

Yeah. Right. Because having a surplus always hurts the economy. Making money is the wrong way to go economically. Isn't spending the definition of Capitalism?

I'm sure BushCo's making their friends rich in the 00's have nothing to do with our current situation.


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Alex The Great]

So apparently that Military Drill South Korea and America are having is now underway

And now we play the waiting game

[Matt Mortem]

A part of me wanted us to not do that drill, but at the same time if we canceled it would be appeasing the bad behavior of NK. Kind of a fine line

[roach]

what people and NK fail to realize is the US has military drills with SK every six months or so. I know because I was in the Navy and we had to go to all of them

[Alex The Great]

I did not know that

But the thing is, tensions have never been higher. All it takes is one screw up for NK and SK to open fire on each other again, It is a lot riskier this time around

[roach]

I used to hate having to go to it because we got very little time in Korea and we couldnt drink during the exercize

[Great1]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/korea-tensions-yellow-sea-war-games

[Alex The Great]

"No one can predict the consequences"

That sounds pleasant :up:

[Alex The Great]

From CNN

"North Korea deploys surface-to-air missiles on its coast as U.S. and South Korea prep for navy drills, Yonhap reports."

:csad:

[roach]

"No one can predict the consequences"



um...war, conflict

[Alex The Great]

I know that. I guess they mean how big their retaliation will be. I dunno :huh:

[Alex The Great]

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2010/11/28/91/0301000000AEN20101128000700315F.HTML

[roach]

i was just trying to be funny

[craigdbfan]

Hearing that they've deployed their SAM's isn't surprising but alarming.

[Alex The Great]

Haha, I know

Goddamn it CNN, stop with this Heroes stuff and report on what's going on!

[craigdbfan]

Emergency evacuation order issued for civilians on Yeonpyeong Island, official says (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2010/11/28/69/0301000000AEN20101128001300315F.HTML)

[Alex The Great]

I think this **** just got real :down

[craigdbfan]

Breaking: S. Korea's military spots signs of N. Korean artillery firing: official (HTTP://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128002000315.HTML)

This isn't looking very good.

[Franklin Richards]

Is every friggin' newschannel playing some feature instead of covering the news?


Jeezy Creezy!


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Alex The Great]

I know! CNN is doing the Heroes thing, and that's the only American News Channel I have! :argh:

And my Canadian News Networks aren't doing anything either

[roach]

Fox is talking about it

[Franklin Richards]

msnbc is showing their usual weekend prison film. While FoxNews...can't believe I tuned in... they are , ironically, showing a War feature.

Headline News is interviewing Rod Stewart.


:argh:


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Franklin Richards]

Fox is talking about it

Oh... guess they switched at the top of the hour.



Ok.... cover me. I'm going in.

:D



:doom: :doom: :doom:

[Alex The Great]

Well, that CNN thing is almost over, isn't it? Hopefully we don't have to watch Crypt Keeper Live re-runs

[craigdbfan]

That Fox news host has very distracting fishlip injections.

Just thought I'd point that out.

[Alex The Great]

CNN is finally talking about it

[enterthemadness]

From CNN

"North Korea deploys surface-to-air missiles on its coast as U.S. and South Korea prep for navy drills, Yonhap reports."

:csad:

You know...if aliens were to visit earth and were nice to us, NK would start crap dooming us all. What I'm trying to say is, they need to be dealt with. Rather us sadly or some other country.

[Alex The Great]

Well, America just might have to be the country that deals with NK. Because who else could? Or would want to? China might side with NK, and Russia is probably going to watch from the sidelines

So that Navy Exercise begins in two hours. Will be interesting to see what happens

[roach]

it would be stupid of NK to start something with a carrier battlegroup there

[enterthemadness]

Well, America just might have to be the country that deals with NK. Because who else could? Or would want to? China might side with NK, and Russia is probably going to watch from the sidelines

So that Navy Exercise begins in two hours. Will be interesting to see what happens

I see nothing about NK on CNN or foxnews.

[Alex The Great]

You forget, this is North Korea. They don't really think these things through it seems

[Alex The Great]

I see nothing about NK on CNN or foxnews.
Yeah. CNN is kind bouncing back and forth. They'll only report on it if something new happens

[roach]

You forget, this is North Korea. They don't really think these things through it seems

true

[enterthemadness]

Is it me or is NK like Germany was in WWI/WW2?

[Alex The Great]

true
Yep. And if they ever wanted to attack the Americans, this is their chance

[Spidey-Bat]

Is it me or is NK like Germany was in WWI/WW2?

Nope. NK does not have the ability to sustain a war for any extended period of time.

[Great1]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/28/3078612.htm

[craigdbfan]

Nope. NK does not have the ability to sustain a war for any extended period of time.

If they do anything it'll be something more along the lines of a "one hit wonder" kind of deal.

[Dr. Evil]

Is it me or is NK like Germany was in WWI/WW2?

If you want to compare NK to a country in World War I, The Empire of Austria-Hungary is a better analogy.

[Alex The Great]

If they do anything it'll be something more along the lines of a "one hit wonder" kind of deal.
That's only if China doesn't stick with NK

[Timstuff]

Or we can do what we did in the 90's. Raise taxes. Cut waste. Manufacture a market bubble ala dot.com. Regulate economic loopholes.


The hard part will be having a working culture like the Baby Boomers were at the tail end of their work cycle.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

This would be the ideal. I hate taxes as much as the next guy, but we need to get the debt paid off. We need to drastically reduce spending and not then turn around and say "we're going to bring your taxes to an all time low!" We need to actually pay off the debt, not just change what we're going further into debt over.

[Alex The Great]

Well, that exercise officially begins now, 1 AM Eastern right?

[craigdbfan]

Well, that exercise officially begins now, 1 AM Eastern right?

They've begun even amid threats of rockets being fired at them.

S. Korea asks journalists to leave Yeonpyeong Island (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128003000315.HTML)

Chinese government to make 'urgent' announcement to the world (HTTP://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128003800320.HTML)

[Figs]

They've begun even amid threats of rockets being fired at them.

S. Korea asks journalists to leave Yeonpyeong Island (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128003000315.HTML)

Chinese government to make 'urgent' announcement to the world (HTTP://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128003800320.HTML)

I'm both excited and scared to hear this announcement of theirs.

[The Squirrel]

When is 4:30 pm USA time?

[craigdbfan]

I'm both excited and scared to hear this announcement of theirs.

Similar feelings.

When is 4:30 pm USA time?

It's going to start in approximately 1 hour and 30 minutes. Its 3:21 pm right now in China.

[Great1]

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128003500320.HTML

[craigdbfan]

S. Korean artillery mistakenly fired on DMZ (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128005100315.HTML)

PAJU, South Korea, Nov. 28 (Yonhap) -- An artillery shot accidentally fired by a South Korean army unit fell on the South Korean side of the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) on Sunday afternoon, military officials said.

No casualties were reported from the accidental discharge that occurred at around 3 p.m., the officials said. An artillery unit stationed in the border town of Paju, Gyeonggi Province, mistakenly fired a shell that landed near Daeseong-dong, a civilian village on the southern side the DMZ dividing the two Koreas, they said.

[craigdbfan]

China calls for early resumption of six-party nuke talks (HTTP://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128005400315.HTML)

[8wid]

When is 4:30 pm USA time?

That depends what part of the country you're talking about.

[Timstuff]

There's no "USA time." The USA covers 3 time zones (more, if you count Hawaii).

[8wid]

Well the US can count on Australia to join them in military conflict. :indy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voMyAep0nes

[Alex The Great]

S. Korean artillery mistakenly fired on DMZ (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128005100315.HTML)
You guys remember that mistake I was talking about? This could be it

[Matt]

Does anyone remember about a year and a half ago when Jong-Il was firing test missiles, and smuggling in uranium, promising to declare war on anyone who tries to stop the ships that were carrying the uranium? Well, now we are seeing the result of Obama not taking a hard stance against him then. He's killed South Korean troops and civilians and he is only going to get worse as long as we keep playing this "six way talks," and "sanctions," game with him. You do not negotiate with a child. You tell them the rules, they follow, or there are consequences. This is how we need to start treating this North Korea situation. Because every time that we allow him to do something like this with meaningless sanctions being the only consequence, things will get worse. But alas, we are now seeing the downside of having a president who is so worried about being liked, that he is not effective in the least.

[roach]

if China wasnt present NK would be a smudge....they are the wildcard...no one knows what side they will take

[Matt]

Look at China like you would a loan shark. A loan shark will break your legs, but they won't kill you. We owe China way too much money for them to side against us. They may criticize us in the UN, but they would never send troops to aide North Koreans or dispatch fighter jets to shoot down our bombers or anything like that, because the fact is, we owe them too much money.

[Alex The Great]

True, but China doesn't want North Korea to fall. They don't a Pro-US Country on their front door. Some say North Korea is China's East Germany.

So they might not WANT to fight the U.S (this is all worst case scenario by the way), but they might have to, to keep their Communist regime alive

[Kelly]

North Korea is a thorn in the side of China.....they are a parasite to them.

[Dr. Evil]

North Korea is a thorn in the side of China.....they are a parasite to them.

Yep. Sooner or later, China will let North Korea fend for themselves.

[Matt]

True, but China doesn't want North Korea to fall. They don't a Pro-US Country on their front door. Some say North Korea is China's East Germany.

So they might not WANT to fight the U.S (this is all worst case scenario by the way), but they might have to, to keep their Communist regime alive

Like Kel said, NK is a parasite and China is very aware of that. The Cold War is over, Alex. China is becoming more and more capitalistic on a daily basis. China doesn't need an East Germany, nor do they want the burden of supporting a rogue state ran by a crazed leader who pulls **** like this. If the US bombed North Korea into oblivion all China would do is lecture us in the UN because at the end of the day, the money that we owe China is far more important to them than keeping their parasite alive.

[Alex The Great]

Yeah, you're right

[The Squirrel]

There's no "USA time." The USA covers 3 time zones (more, if you count Hawaii).

Eastern time is usually used as a standard. I can subtract to Central time from there.

[Alonsovich]

Like Kel said, NK is a parasite and China is very aware of that. The Cold War is over, Alex. China is becoming more and more capitalistic on a daily basis. China doesn't need an East Germany, nor do they want the burden of supporting a rogue state ran by a crazed leader who pulls **** like this. If the US bombed North Korea into oblivion all China would do is lecture us in the UN because at the end of the day, the money that we owe China is far more important to them than keeping their parasite alive.

I think the wild card China is playing here is Kim Jong-un. They're basically waiting for him to take power and make reforms that open NK in Chinese style. Basically... if there isn't a war before, the only way the Kim family will stay in power is with massive aperturistic reforms. If he doesn't do it expect China to finance a literal or disguised coup d'etat in NK to fit it more to it's interests.

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah. Right. Because having a surplus always hurts the economy. Making money is the wrong way to go economically. Isn't spending the definition of Capitalism?

I'm sure BushCo's making their friends rich in the 00's have nothing to do with our current situation.


:doom: :doom: :doom:

More like the banking reforms of the Republican Congress and Clinton Administration put us in the mess we're in. Or messing around with the Social Security Fund. Or not using any of the surplus to pay off the damn debt. Or so many freaking bubbles like the dot com bubble started off in the 90's.

Sure, the 1990's was a prosperous decade, but so were the 1920's. And just like the short term policies of the 1920's created the long term problems that led to the Great Depression, the short term successes of the 1990's led to the Great Recession in the late 2000's.

Clinton's policies had a much bigger effect than BushCo.'s retarded deficit spending. Sure the Bush Administration played it's part by allowing speculation to run rampant (the surplus/deficit situation has nothing to do with our current economic state), but the Clinton Administration played a far bigger role, because the root of the problem is the regulations that Clinton got rid of, that allowed the banks to perform practices that created the financial meltdown that created the Great Recession.

[hippie_hunter]

According to WikiLeaks:

"In yet another cable, American diplomats in East Asia reported about members of the Beijing leadership who had grown sick and tired of the escapades of their North Korean ally Kim Jong Il and who could conceive of reunification under the control of South Korea."

[Alex The Great]

Well, that's good :up:

[Spidey-Bat]

According to WikiLeaks:

"In yet another cable, American diplomats in East Asia reported about members of the Beijing leadership who had grown sick and tired of the escapades of their North Korean ally Kim Jong Il and who could conceive of reunification under the control of South Korea."

Would South Korea want to absorb North Korea? I just get the impression that the dream of a united Korea is dead.

[craigdbfan]

All of this is so odd. Tension in Korean Peninsula, Eurozone collapse, release of Wikileaks of "confidential" documents. On a lesser degree of importance but a ton of domains which are involved in pirating are being taken over by the FED in massive numbers.

Now the US is thinking of possibly having more control over domains and enforcing more regulations on the internet as a whole but at this point is that even possible?

Really hope things calm down. So much conflict everywhere at the same time.:doh:

[Hobgoblin]

Would South Korea want to absorb North Korea? I just get the impression that the dream of a united Korea is dead.

Right. If the two countries unite, than North Korea's problems becomes South Korea's problems.

[Marx]

Would South Korea want to absorb North Korea? I just get the impression that the dream of a united Korea is dead.

I think the South would absorb them regardless. (Whether they wanted to or not.)

[Kelly]

I think it would be tough on South Korea, but I believe they have the carrying capacity to handle it. We would have many immigrate here as well...

Canada would also absorb a large number....

Japan will say, NO WAY....

[Alex The Great]

Eh, We can take them in

We can shove them all in Saskatchuan or Manitoba

[Soapy]

Haven't read the thread, so I apologize if something similar has been brought up. Anyway, something I've been mulling over,

Assuming for a second that war breaks out, and assuming for a second that North Korea loses, how messy could it get with the civilians? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of them total fanatics that have been brainwashed to believe that Kim Jong-il is a god and the United States is a Nazi Germany-esque evil empire or some ****? I mean, I can't imagine such a people would say, "Well, war's over. I guess we'll just forget all that crazy stuff we've been taught for generations and make peace with everyone."

Keep in mind my understanding of North Korea comes mostly from bits and pieces I pick up from movies and mainstream news. :funny:

[hippie_hunter]

Haven't read the thread, so I apologize if something similar has been brought up. Anyway, something I've been mulling over,

Assuming for a second that war breaks out, and assuming for a second that North Korea loses, how messy could it get with the civilians? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of them total fanatics that have been brainwashed to believe that Kim Jong-il is a god and the United States is a Nazi Germany-esque evil empire or some ****? I mean, I can't imagine such a people would say, "Well, war's over. I guess we'll just forget all that crazy stuff we've been taught for generations and make peace with everyone."

Keep in mind my understanding of North Korea comes mostly from bits and pieces I pick up from movies and mainstream news. :funny:

A second Korean War is expected to have high civilian casualties due to the North being completely incapable of waging war on it's own, and it's expected that China would abandon them. So because of this, they are only capable of performing a one-hit massive strike with everything they have directed towards South Korea's economic, population, administrative, and cultural center which is absurdly close to the DMZ.

However, the war would quickly end due to the North Korean military being poorly equipped, poorly fed, poorly trained, and having low morale. Most of North Korea's citizenry will most likely accept the war being over due to their horrible economic conditions that have left them impoverished and starving. And the North Korean government has to deal with it being tougher and tougher to keep outside information out of North Korea, which reveals that the outside world is way better than their crappy country, and they don't exactly have the capabilities that the Chinese have to block it.

[craigdbfan]

N. Korea says it does not fear war, vows to give harsh response if attacked (HTTP://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/29/0200000000AEN20101129006200315.HTML)

SEOUL, Nov. 29 (Yonhap) -- North Korea said Monday it is never afraid of war and vowed to "grub up" the base of its aggressors if attacked, condemning massive South Korean-U.S. naval exercises under way in response to the communist nation's artillery attack.

North Korea has ratcheted up harsh rhetoric against the maneuvers near the tense Yellow Sea border between the two Koreas, claiming that the war games are aimed at invading the country and that the Korean Peninsula is on the brink of war.

http://img.yonhapnews.co.kr/etc/graphic/YH/2010/11/24/GYH2010112400060032003_P1.jpg

[jesusmagicka]

A second Korean War is expected to have high civilian casualties due to the North being completely incapable of waging war on it's own, and it's expected that China would abandon them. So because of this, they are only capable of performing a one-hit massive strike with everything they have directed towards South Korea's economic, population, administrative, and cultural center which is absurdly close to the DMZ.

However, the war would quickly end due to the North Korean military being poorly equipped, poorly fed, poorly trained, and having low morale. Most of North Korea's citizenry will most likely accept the war being over due to their horrible economic conditions that have left them impoverished and starving. And the North Korean government has to deal with it being tougher and tougher to keep outside information out of North Korea, which reveals that the outside world is way better than their crappy country, and they don't exactly have the capabilities that the Chinese have to block it.


That's really scary. Damn, shoulda spent all this time building up a shield wall between the two.

[Pink Ranger]

Eh, We can take them in

We can shove them all in Saskatchuan or Manitoba

Dude, haven't the people of North Korea suffered enough?

[Hobgoblin]

I gotta say, I'm surprised at the tough talk coming out of Seoul.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/southkorea/8168500/South-Korean-president-no-point-in-being-patient-with-North-Korea-anymore.html

By Andrew Gilligan in Seoul 6:16PM GMT 29 Nov 2010

North Korea, which claims the sea immediately around Yeongpyeong, meanwhile declared on Monday that it was "not afraid of war", explicitly threatening a "rain of dreadful fire" if there is any violation of what it deems its territory.

In his first full address to the nation since Pyongyang shelled the southern island of Yeongpyeong, killing four people, Lee Myung-bak, the South Korean president, said that "at long last" his country had come to realise that its previous policy of patience with North Korea "no longer makes sense."

"The South Korean people now unequivocally understand that prolonged endurance and tolerance will spawn nothing but more serious provocations," he said.


"We are aware of the historic lesson that a disgraceful peace achieved through intimidation only brings about greater harm in the end If the North commits any additional provocations against the South, we will make sure that it pays a dear price without fail."

In his seven-minute televised address, President Lee, who is facing an unprecedented wave of anger from South Koreans over his handling of the attack, apologised to his countrymen for what he called a "crime against humanity."

"I am standing here, keenly aware that I am responsible for not having been able to protect the lives and property of the people," the president said. "I understand very well that you were greatly disappointed with how we responded to the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island by North Korea."

Mr Lee's promise of retaliation for any future North Korean attack leaves him with almost no room for manoeuvre in the event of further provocations by Pyongyang.

At the same time, however, the South drew back from staging new live-fire exercises around Yeongpyeong island. Similar exercises last week were blamed by Pyongyang for triggering its attack.

The new exercises – separate from joint US-South Korean drills which continue fifty miles to the south – could have raised tensions even further.

The new exercises were announced yesterday but then cancelled within hours. South Korean officials insisted that they had merely been postponed, and would still take place.

Seoul did, however, deploy long-range howitzers and multiple rocket-launchers on Yeongpyeong, which was declared a "security zone" allowing the military to remove all civilians and journalists from the area.

Pyongyang state media yesterday issued new threats against the South.

"We don't want war, but never are afraid of one," the official newspaper, Rodong Sinmun, said. "If internal and external war maniacs make a provocation again, we will counter it without hesitation, grub up the base of aggressors entirely and cleanse the root cause of war clearly."

[The Squirrel]

Even if China doesn't back them there is always a chance a country like Iran might.

[Raiden]

I gotta say, I'm surprised at the tough talk coming out of Seoul.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/southkorea/8168500/South-Korean-president-no-point-in-being-patient-with-North-Korea-anymore.html

Well, both North Korea and South Korea can talk tough because they have the support of China and US, respectively. However, I wonder how far China will be willing to go along with N.Korea's aggressive stance, and I don't believe N.Korea is really serious about having a second Korea War; I think this posturing is just a show of force from Kim Il-sung, mainly to upstage his political enemies as he prepared his youngest son as the new leader of the country. Maybe it is also used as a bartering tool to get the Western leaders to try to negotiate a ceasefire with financial aids.

[Hobgoblin]

Even if China doesn't back them there is always a chance a country like Iran might.

How would Iran back them? Iran is on the other side of the planet. By the time the Iranian navy arrived in North Korea, the war would be well under way and turning against the North. Yes, Iran could try to divert American attention from the North by attacking Israel but I dont think they will. They dont want to provoke the Americans without a bomb or two as backup.

[Hobgoblin]

Well, both North Korea and South Korea can talk tough because they have the support of China and US, respectively. However, I wonder how far China will be willing to go along with N.Korea's aggressive stance, and I don't believe N.Korea is really serious about having a second Korea War; I think this posturing is just a show of force from Kim Il-sung, mainly to upstage his political enemies as he prepared his youngest son as the new leader of the country. Maybe it is also used as a bartering tool to get the Western leaders to try to negotiate a ceasefire with financial aids.

Most likely you are right. The North whines and complains every few years so we will give them aid. They especially acted up when Kim took over for his father in 1994. Now that the kid is about to take over, they are using the old playbook. The difference is the South's aggravation and "We arent going to take this anymore" attitude.

EDIT:
As h_h said before, China is just as tired of NK as the rest of us. On one hand, that makes China a more willing partner in talks. On the other, it would make NK feel even more cornered than they already do. We've all heard the expression about the cornered rat.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/11/29/wikileaks.new.documents/index.html?hpt=T2

(CNN) -- New documents posted on the websites of the Guardian and The New York Times suggest Chinese officials are losing patience with long-time ally North Korea. Senior figures in Beijing have even described the regime in the North as behaving like a "spoiled child."

According to cables obtained by WikiLeaks, South Korea's then vice foreign minister, Chun Yung-woo, said earlier this year that senior Chinese officials (whose names are redacted in the cables) had told him they believed Korea should be reunified under Seoul's control, and that this view was gaining ground with the leadership in Beijing.

Chun was quoted at length in a cable sent by the U.S. ambassador in Seoul, Kathleen Stephens, earlier this year. He is reported as saying that "the North had already collapsed economically and would collapse politically two to three years after the death of (leader) Kim Jong-il."

CNN has viewed the cables posted on the newspapers' websites and on the WikiLeaks website.

[craigdbfan]

North Korea warns of all-out war (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/30/koreas.crisis/index.html?hpt=T2)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/30/koreas.crisis/t1larg.korea.beach.afp.gi.jpg

(CNN) -- North Korea warned Tuesday that the continuing military drills by the United States and South Korea could lead to "all-out war any time." The firmly-worded message was published in North Korea's state-run KCNA news service.

"If the U.S. and the South Korean war-like forces fire even a shell into the inviolable land and territorial waters of the DPRK, they will have to pay dearly for this," the news service report said. South Korea and the United States launched joint anti-submarine military exercises on Monday, drawing consternation from North Korea.

[MessiahDecoy123]

All these threats are like two teens arguing over the phone.

It's pathetic and sad that those childish threats could cost millions of lives.

[obin_gam]

Apperantly USA knew that Northkorea would attack SK
http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2009/04/09SEOUL672.html

The DPRK's determination to maintain internal order
meant that it could go so far as to engage in "limited armed
conflict" with the ROK. At the same time, the DPRK was well
aware that ROK forces were ready for any provocation and
would respond with superior force. In addition, the DPRK
knew that combined ROK-U.S. surveillance capabilities would
prevent it from achieving surprise, so XXXXXXXXXXXX was reassured that
no direct military provocation was imminent.

[Raiden]

Right. If the two countries unite, than North Korea's problems becomes South Korea's problems.

Well, it happened before when Eastern and Western Germany reunited after the fall of the Berlin Wall. I read that W. Germany is still supporting their Eastern brethren financially to this day. Obviously, N. Korea is quite broken and will need the S. Korea's economic support if they reunite, but I'm sure S. Korea will be more than willing to do so if it brings peace to their borders at last.