Kinect and it's effects on the WORLD.

[Isildur´s Heir]

Actually Kojima is not making any game for the 360. He was highly against that when MGS4 was being made. He has nothing to do with MGS Rising and has been very vocal about removing himself from that project while boosting up Peace Walker as the next true MGS game as far as he is concerned. Besides I dont think there was much doubt about a possibility of a MGS game ever going to the 360, but more certainty that MGS IV specifically would never be ported (as that rumor popped up every few months), which it hasnt and most likely never will
Yeah, i know that it´s not Kojima that is making it, but i don´t believe that he doesn´t have anything to do with MGS Rising, i believe he is on the production team.
If not, Kojima is nothing more than a sell out, if not, what the hell was he doing on the E3 Microsoft press conference announcing Rising?

[Havok83]

Yeah, i know that it´s not Kojima that is making it, but i don´t believe that he doesn´t have anything to do with MGS Rising, i believe he is on the production team.
If not, Kojima is nothing more than a sell out, if not, what the hell was he doing on the E3 Microsoft press conference announcing Rising?
Most likely money. He's the face most associated with MGS besides Hayter and him showing up on stage was for shock value and it worked. I dont like what he's been saying about Rising as he's doing the series that he built up a disservice with his comments.

[KALEL114]

Right. That's look at the posts after yours.

Maybe i am exaggerating :o

On other news, Sony just said they are going to copy Microsoft, which i was positive it would happen.
What started by being a more precise "Wiimote", the Sony motion control is starting to be closer to Natal than the Wii.
Sony just announced that their new technology will face recognition (facial recognition software would "detect gender and even the age of the face, separate facial features such as the nose, eyes and ears, and even detect whether you’re smiling or not.), gesture recognition and, skeleton tracking.
Who else is going to bet that objects scanning will be a reality too?

I see a lawsuit coming out, or an all out war between Microsoft and Sony.

oh please. MS isnt going to be suing Sony for anything, especially since Natal is in many ways an advanced PS Eye (which suceeded their EyeToy), technology that Sony already has on the market and has been working on for years. You know, their motion capture based cameras with the microphone which was first demoed back in 1999. Really who's "copying" who?

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/07/16/so...ces-right-now/ (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/07/16/sony-playstation-eye-can-recognize-faces-right-now/)


Interacting with games without using a controller is apparently a really big deal. Microsoft's got its "Project Natal" thing and Sony has its magic motion wand. Oh, wait. That's technically a controller. That you hold. Fear not, as, during the Develop Conference going on right now in the UK, Sony has revealed that the existing PlayStation Eye camera can recognize you -- well, specifically your face -- and track your skeletal movement without getting all touchy-feely.

SCEE says that it already has libraries available for developers who want to integrate the technology into their games. Develop magazine's site quotes developer relations head, Kish Hirani, who divulged that the software was developed by SCEE R&D along with outside developers. So, basically, according to them the already existing PSEye has this feature built in already. Which obviously implies that they've had this planned for quite some time. The PSEye was on the market well before even rumors of Natal existed.

Really, I think it's time to give the 'Sony copying Natal' angle a rest. Sony does it's fair share of copying in the market, but there's really no indication that this is one of them.

And this from the closed thread you started.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=17081528&postcount=6

Bottom line, Sony did not copy Natal. You were not called a fanboy, but presented with facts.

[Isildur´s Heir]

Sure, ok, let´s wait and see how much Sony will use from Natal.
My call.... a lot, voice recognition and the ability to scan objects will soon follow i´m sure.

So, Sony said they already have that technology....ok, i´ll give you that.
The point is not that Natal is completly original, there was the EyeToy last gen, the point is to take something and enhance it, that´s what Microsoft is doing.
So, let´s go with that, with Sony saying that they already have it....so, you have two options here, and neither one is very flattering for Sony.

1 - Sony are a bunch of liars, they never had that all technology, they are just making it up, making a new camera (like some rumors state) and saying it´s old news.
2 - Sony are a bunch of morons and retards, because they have that technology for years now, never used it, and were waiting for someone to announce it, which, in the end, falls in the same category as coping what the other guy is doing.

Choose one, and choose wisely...but Sony will look bad either way.

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah, i know that it´s not Kojima that is making it, but i don´t believe that he doesn´t have anything to do with MGS Rising, i believe he is on the production team.
If not, Kojima is nothing more than a sell out, if not, what the hell was he doing on the E3 Microsoft press conference announcing Rising?

Kojima is just a producer on MGS: Rising with only a small role in the development of the project, just like the Metal Gear Ac!d games and Metal Gear: Ghost Babel. He said that his involvement in the project is limited. And yeah, like what was previously said, he was on stage simply because he's the face of the Metal Gear franchise and Kojima Productions.

He's focusing almost all of his efforts on MGS: Peace Walker which is essentially the true MGS5 on the PSP.

[Isildur´s Heir]

ok, but that´s what i said, Kojima is on the production team of Rising

[hippie_hunter]

Right. That's look at the posts after yours.







And this from the closed thread you started.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=17081528&postcount=6

Bottom line, Sony did not copy Natal. You were not called a fanboy, but presented with facts.

To be fair, while Sony does have the technology to create a Natal experience using firmware updates, it does seem odd that they decided to go full on forward with it once Microsoft announced Natal.

And a lot of the Natal stuff that Sony is now doing came after Microsoft announced Natal like Sony filing for a patent for object motion detection just like Natal:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/05/sony-nabs-patent-for-everyday-object-motion-detection-the-fragi/

Or announcing that the PlayStation Eye will be getting facial recognition and skeletal movement after Microsoft announced Natal:
http://kotaku.com/5316484/playstation-camera-to-support-facial-recognition

Sure I'm excited to get this stuff as well as a PlayStation owner, but damn that sounds like blatant copying. Which is something Sony is rather notorious for.

[hippie_hunter]

ok, but that´s what i said, Kojima is on the production team of Rising

There's a difference between actual involvement and being credited with something. Hell Jon Peters was given a credit on Superman Returns but he sure as hell didn't do anything. Kojima was credited with Metal Gear Ac!d, but he did very little as well.

[hippie_hunter]

Sure, ok, let´s wait and see how much Sony will use from Natal.
My call.... a lot, voice recognition and the ability to scan objects will soon follow i´m sure.
I think the PlayStation Eye actually had voice recognition before Natal was announced. Hence why it has the microphone array above the camera.

So, Sony said they already have that technology....ok, i´ll give you that.
The point is not that Natal is completly original, there was the EyeToy last gen, the point is to take something and enhance it, that´s what Microsoft is doing.
So, let´s go with that, with Sony saying that they already have it....so, you have two options here, and neither one is very flattering for Sony.

1 - Sony are a bunch of liars, they never had that all technology, they are just making it up, making a new camera (like some rumors state) and saying it´s old news.
They're not making a new camera, they're using firmware updates to turn the existing PlayStation Eye into a Natal-lite experience.

2 - Sony are a bunch of morons and retards, because they have that technology for years now, never used it, and were waiting for someone to announce it, which, in the end, falls in the same category as coping what the other guy is doing.

Choose one, and choose wisely...but Sony will look bad either way.
That one I'll give you. To play Devil's Advocate, maybe they were planning to turn the PlayStation Eye into a Natal like device all along, but the timing sure doesn't make it look like that.

[Isildur´s Heir]

That one I'll give you. To play Devil's Advocate, maybe they were planning to turn the PlayStation Eye into a Natal like device all along, but the timing sure doesn't make it look like that.
Exactly.
But why would Sony only talk about the wand as their new technology in the E3 presser?
It makes one wonder if they were really planning that, or they just think that after seeing the all word-of-mouth surrounding Natal.
Or was their idea all along was to be seen as copycats, that´s why they never talked about it?
Once again, are they morons or are they liars?
And let´s not forget Sony is known for make things up, like they did in 2000

In July 2000, a marketing executive working for Sony Corporation created a fictitious film critic, David Manning, who gave consistently good reviews for releases from Sony subsidiary Columbia Pictures, which generally received poor reviews amongst real critics.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3524759.stm

But the most stupid thing is, why create and announce "the wand", if, the moment it´s released, it´s already irrelevant.
In other words, they are the ones that are dismissing their own technology, it´s ridiculous.
That´s stupidity at it´s best.
More even when we still don´t know if Natal will work, because it can very well be the biggest pile of crap ever to grace video game history.

That what i like and respect in both Nintendo and Microsoft, they stick with what they believe, they stick with their vision.
And i´ll give you example of that, Ubisoft.
Ubisoft is making the Uplay program, where you get rewards from playing.
Microsoft has awards for some achievements (´Splosion Man, ODST), both services arrived 2 months apart, more or less.
Now, Sony, when they came out with the trophies, which are basically achivements with another name, they could very well enhance them, do something that MS missed, but no, they made the exact same thing that already existed, changing the name and gamerscore to levels, but that´s it.
And that´s to be totally clueless and unorignal, and that´s Sony.

[hippie_hunter]

Exactly.
But why would Sony only talk about the wand as their new technology in the E3 presser?
It makes one wonder if they were really planning that, or they just think that after seeing the all word-of-mouth surrounding Natal.
Or was their idea all along was to be seen as copycats, that´s why they never talked about it?
Once again, are they morons or are they liars?
And let´s not forget Sony is known for make things up, like they did in 2000



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3524759.stm

But the most stupid thing is, why create and announce "the wand", if, the moment it´s released, it´s already irrelevant.
In other words, they are the ones that are dismissing their own technology, it´s ridiculous.
That´s stupidity at it´s best.
More even when we still don´t know if Natal will work, because it can very well be the biggest pile of crap ever to grace video game history.

That what i like and respect in both Nintendo and Microsoft, they stick with what they believe, they stick with their vision.
And i´ll give you example of that, Ubisoft.
Ubisoft is making the Uplay program, where you get rewards from playing.
Microsoft has awards for some achievements (´Splosion Man, ODST), both services arrived 2 months apart, more or less.
Now, Sony, when they came out with the trophies, which are basically achivements with another name, they could very well enhance them, do something that MS missed, but no, they made the exact same thing that already existed, changing the name and gamerscore to levels, but that´s it.
And that´s to be totally clueless and unorignal, and that´s Sony.

I don't really see them making up the capabilities of the PlayStation Eye being turned into Natal when you actually have Sony developing patents for it and has already somewhat developed the technology through the Eye Toy and whatnot. And I don't see them dismissing the PlayStation Motion Controller, if anything, it's them making taking the Wii Remote and Project Natal and bringing it to one console. As a PlayStation owner, that's totally awesome, but as a person looking at it objectively, it's totally copying Microsoft and Nintendo.

[StrainedEyes]

And that´s to be totally clueless and unorignal, and that´s Sony.

Sony also likes to hastily release things before they are ready, just to stay even.

Sony is finally incorporating Netflix into the PS3, but it is a version behind Microsoft's (You have to use your computer to update the queue, MS doesn't need this anymore) and you need a disc to even use it. Eventually an update will eliminate the disc, but they jumped the gun to try and catch up.

Same thing with Facebook. MS took the time to incorporate it and have it work pretty well, for what it's worth. Sony like a week later released an update with Facebook but it's a completely gimped version which basically just makes status updates when you buy things off of the PSN.

Sony should spend the time to fix any problems the MS version has and then trump them when they release it instead of this constant game of catch up.

[KALEL114]

Edit: Never mind. One ticket for the high road please.

[Havok83]

Same thing with Facebook. MS took the time to incorporate it and have it work pretty well, for what it's worth. Sony like a week later released an update with Facebook but it's a completely gimped version which basically just makes status updates when you buy things off of the PSN.

its a moot point anyway, considering Facebook, in its full capacity, has been accessible on the PS3 since day 1. Its the main reasion I didnt think this update was all that signifcant

[hippie_hunter]

Sony also likes to hastily release things before they are ready, just to stay even.

Sony is finally incorporating Netflix into the PS3, but it is a version behind Microsoft's (You have to use your computer to update the queue, MS doesn't need this anymore) and you need a disc to even use it. Eventually an update will eliminate the disc, but they jumped the gun to try and catch up.

Same thing with Facebook. MS took the time to incorporate it and have it work pretty well, for what it's worth. Sony like a week later released an update with Facebook but it's a completely gimped version which basically just makes status updates when you buy things off of the PSN.

Sony should spend the time to fix any problems the MS version has and then trump them when they release it instead of this constant game of catch up.

Considering that you can log on to the actual Facebook on the PS3, I really wouldn't consider it to be a gimped version. Although I do think that they should have had a Facebook app that takes you straight to Facebook. I think they should do the same with YouTube and Twitter.

[Isildur´s Heir]

Edit: Never mind. One ticket for the high road please.
This is not the "Kicking Sony in the groin" game, we are just stating facts, so, if you have anything to say, please do.

I don´t like Sony, i never hided that from anyone, not because i like MS or Nintendo, but because of the things stated above.
Before going further let me say that i´m talking about the gaming department, not the company as an all, i have nothing against the movies, TV, and whatnot, i don´t even have anything against the PS3 and PSP, my problem is with the people behind it.

For two years in a row, Sony was the big kahuna, they sold tons of consoles, and they didn´t learned anything fricking thing.
Not to dismiss Sony for those two years, they were very important for the state of the industry, but to debunk the reason why it was so; Sony did it because they NEVER HAD ANY DIRECT COMPETITION during those two years.
Nintendo was never a direct competition to Sony (they still aren´t), and Sega was slowly dying since the end of the 16 bit era.
Last generation was the same stuff; Sega died as a console manufacture, Nintendo had their own audience and MS came too late in the game, was a newcomer, and was basically unknown outside the US (but even so, they took second place, which was an amazing victory from MS).
This generation they have, for the first time, a direct competitor in the likes of the 360, and they are totally clueless.
Nintendo continues to do their thing without looking to the other two companies; MS continues to do their thing, look around to their competiors from time to time and uses what they think works but enhances it; Sony bluntly copies everyone left and right without knowing exactly what they are doing...it´s sad really.
Sony is the king of delusional, saying crap like:

“The idea of a handheld rivalry with Nintendo is an irrelevance. Those formats don't appear in our planning. It's not a fair comparison; not fair on them, I should stress. That sounds arrogant, maybe, but it's the truth. With the DS , it's fair to say that Nintendo stepped out of the technical race and went for a feature differentiation with the touch screen. But I fear that it won't have a lasting impact beyond that of a gimmick - so the long-lasting appeal of the platform is at peril as a direct result of that."
- Phil Harrison, president of Sony Worldwide Studios, on comparing PSP to DS in an interview with MCV

"It’s probably too cheap…"
– Ken Kutaragi, Regarding the $499 to $599 price point

"The name of the game is not market share, it’s how fast we (Sony) can grow the industry."
– Ken Kutaragi, regarding competition from Microsoft and Nintendo

"If you can find a PS3 anywhere in North America that's been on shelves for more than five minutes, I'll give you 1200 bucks for it."
- Jack Tretton, Sony Computer Entertainment America president and CEO

"Microsoft does not concern us. Microsoft is not a technology company."
- Nobuyuki Idei, Sony chief corporate adviser in an interview with BBC NEWS

"We're certainly not interested in Gimmicks."
- Kaz Hirai0 E32k6, right before showing off Eye of Judgement.

"Microsoft shoots for the moon. Sony shoots for the sun"
- Ken Kutaragi, regarding competition from Microsoft

"This time, Microsoft has stated clearly that it is going after Playstation, but the Playstation 2. They were looking at 2 and that´s why Xbox 360 became like that"
- Ken Kutaragi, regarding Microsoft

but the best of all, the very best

“Microsoft owns the office; Sony owns the living room; and Wii owns the closet.”
- Jack Tretton, regarding both MS and Nintendo, and that quote was made back in Apr 2009
In other words, MS is only good for the PC and Windows, Sony has the best console around, and Nintendo sucks ass......un-friking-believable

I can´t say anymore, Sony is a pathetic little company, so afraid of the competition and of themselves that they need to say crap on a daily basis so they can be less afraid.
You can say that MS also say alot of crap, and they do, but no one beats Sony in the most studid quote game.
The only thing Sony has going for them is the blu-ray and the first party games, and the last one is the only reason i´m going to get one next year when God of War 3 comes out (and i still want to play Uncharted, Resistance and Ratchet).
In fact, the only weapon they have is the power card because of the blu-ray, with all of fancy looking games, but, if tomorrow MS gets a blu-ray drive, Sony is fu**ed.

[hippie_hunter]

This is not the "Kicking Sony in the groin" game, we are just stating facts, so, if you have anything to say, please do.

I don´t like Sony, i never hided that from anyone, not because i like MS or Nintendo, but because of the things stated above.
Before going further let me say that i´m talking about the gaming department, not the company as an all, i have nothing against the movies, TV, and whatnot, i don´t even have anything against the PS3 and PSP, my problem is with the people behind it.

For two years in a row, Sony was the big kahuna, they sold tons of consoles, and they didn´t learned anything fricking thing.
Not to dismiss Sony for those two years, they were very important for the state of the industry, but to debunk the reason why it was so; Sony did it because they NEVER HAD ANY DIRECT COMPETITION during those two years.
Nintendo was never a direct competition to Sony (they still aren´t), and Sega was slowly dying since the end of the 16 bit era.
Last generation was the same stuff; Sega died as a console manufacture, Nintendo had their own audience and MS came too late in the game, was a newcomer, and was basically unknown outside the US (but even so, they took second place, which was an amazing victory from MS).
This generation they have, for the first time, a direct competitor in the likes of the 360, and they are totally clueless.
Nintendo continues to do their thing without looking to the other two companies; MS continues to do their thing, look around to their competiors from time to time and uses what they think works but enhances it; Sony bluntly copies everyone left and right without knowing exactly what they are doing...it´s sad really.
Sony is the king of delusional, saying crap like:



I can´t say anymore, Sony is a pathetic little company, so afraid of the competition and of themselves that they need to say crap on a daily basis so they can be less afraid.
You can say that MS also say alot of crap, and they do, but no one beats Sony in the most studid quote game.
The Sony of today really isn't the Sony of even a year ago. The massive underperformance of the PS3 really humbled them down. Deservedly so.

To tell you the truth, I've been finding Microsoft lately to be the more cocky and arrogant one. For no real reason either since they (along with Sony) are getting beaten massively by Nintendo, are a complete failure in Japan, has fallen to last place in Europe (despite Microsoft's claims that they are 1 million ahead of Sony), and are likely to fall into last place in sales (although Sony is just as likely to remain in last place, it all depends on how Sony performs in North America from here on out), kinda going against their business model of trying to be #1 next generation (if the PS3 passes the 360, going from second to last really doesn't look good).

And honestly, Microsoft really does the same kind of crap as well.

The only thing Sony has going for them is the blu-ray and the first party games, and the last one is the only reason i´m going to get one last year when God of War 3 comes out (and i still want to play Uncharted, Resistance and Ratchet).
To be fair isn't the only thing going for Microsoft the first party games as well. Considering that like almost every third party game is multiplatform and the PlayStation 3 is the lead development console for games (mostly due to the fact that it's easier and cheaper to port from PS3 to 360/PC than 360/PC to PS3) meaning that the PS3 doesn't have the crappy version any more.

In fact, the only weapon they have is the power card because of the blu-ray, with all of fancy looking games, but, if tomorrow MS gets a blu-ray drive, Sony is fu**ed.
I have to disagree with that. The PlayStation brand is still a much bigger brand than that of the Xbox one. Ever since the introduction of the PS3 Slim (and a much better and non-retarded advertisement campaign), the PS3 has been outselling the 360 by an average of 100,000 in North America and even beating the Wii in Japan.

Really, it just goes to show that the only problem with the PS3 in the eyes of the consumer was the absurdly high price point in comparison to much cheaper, and just as good, alternatives. I do think that we'll be seeing the 360 in 3rd place in sales for the most part from now on because the PS3 is now at a price point that is not a total rip-off.

[Flash Facts]

Umm correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it impossible for the current EyeToy to duplicate everything that Natal (supposedly) does? From what I can recall Natal has an infared camera which helps track movement and depth and Sony's camera does not which is why their "wand" needs to have a giant glowing ball on the end.

[Tron Bonne]

Sony is finally incorporating Netflix into the PS3, but it is a version behind Microsoft's (You have to use your computer to update the queue, MS doesn't need this anymore) and you need a disc to even use it. Eventually an update will eliminate the disc, but they jumped the gun to try and catch up.

No, you don't. I add and remove things from my instant queue straight from the PS3

[Isildur´s Heir]

I don´t know who is ahead in Europe, but don´t read too much on it.
I already read rumors that say that MS is lying and they are 3rd place in Europe, but, like the name say, those are just rumors, the only facts we have are the numbers in both NPD and VGChartz and both claim that the 360 is still ahead.
The difference is minimal, only 0.46 million, but still...and even when MS claimed they were 1 million ahead, that was back in September, and, going by the numbers, they were right.

Besides, i don´t see the 360 losing second place anytime soon.
People are reading too much on the all "the PS3 slim is selling like hot cakes".
The Slim is only 2 months old (almost 3)....give it time, let´s talk again in 6 or 7 months.
Sure, the Playstation brand is still gigantic in comparison to the Xbox, that´s a given, that´s why i said, back in 2007/2008, that i wouldnt´be surprised if the PS3 ends on second place when all it´s set and done, and i still believe it can very well happen, but let´s wait first before opening the bottles of champagne.

MS will never get the Japanese market, that´s a given, unless Natal is the biggest thing ever made and the Japanese love it to death.
Why would Japan buy a US console when they have to two great national ones? More even when they are not big on Western games?
Sony might very well still get the US maket, but i don´t count on it, the Americans love their 360 and the diference between both consoles in that maket is almost 9 million (19.24 million against 10.32 to be exact)
That leaves Europe, which, in their majority is still Sonyland, which makes the "fact" that the 360 is ahead there an epic sucess.
Still, the diference between the 360 and the PS3 overrall is still 6.69 million, which is still way more than in Japan which is only 2.7 million (the Wii is kicking both with 8.75 million units sold).
And i know that a lot of countries in Europe don´t look twice at the 360.

Besides, once again, if you look at the numbers, the PS3 Slim is losing steam, it´s selling less and less each week and the diference with the 360 is becaming minimal once again.
In the week of the release of the Slim, the PS3 sold a hell lot (594,026 K), against 148,483 K from the 360, which was expected.
Exaclty one month later, the PS3 sold 246.319 K against 153.886.
In the first week this month the Sony sold 285.067 against 263.921.
And they are being outsold by the 360 every other week in the US.
And that´s just less than 2 months after the release of the Slim.

Lastly, and this one i find really stupid from the people buying the Sony console, people buy the PS3, but they don´t buy the games.
Once again, if you look at the numbers, 90% of the games sell more on the 360, hell, even the MW2 sold a lot more on the 360 and that came out in the mist of the PS3 Slim frenzy.
Even the exclusives don´t sell a lot when compared to the exclusives on the 360.
So, if people don´t buy the games, why do they buy the PS3?
My call, a lot of them buy it for the blu-ray alone.

[Tron Bonne]

Oh yay, it's the IH bashing Sony game. I knew that one would get remade down the road

[Isildur´s Heir]

Oh yay, it's the IH bashing Sony game. I knew that one would get remade down the road
You´re reading comprehension is not the best, now is it?
But that´s alright, now you run along and go play with the other kids.

[Isildur´s Heir]

Now, back to project Natal, which is the reason of this thread.

One thing that no one talks about, and i believe will be a huge selling point of the peripheral, is that it will allow 3D/VR gaming for all games, new and old, because that technology will be on Natal, not on the games.
Contrary to Sony which is going to release a firmware in 2010 that will allow 3D (correct me if i´m wrong, but from what i could gather, you will new a 3D TV too, right?), Natal will allow it from the get go, without glasses, in any TV.
There is nothing that point that i´m right, but, in my understanding, it´s almost a certainty.
Why?
Because of one name, Johnny Chung Lee.

Johnny Lee is a frincking genious.
The man has a PhD in Human-Computer interaction, the man brought the Wii projects

Tracking Your Fingers with the Wiimote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0awjPUkBXOU&feature=player_embedded

Low-Cost Multi-point Interactive Whiteboards Using the Wiimote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s5EvhHy7eQ&feature=player_embedded#

Head Tracking for Desktop VR Displays using the Wii Remote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw&feature=player_embedded

we can only imagine what he will bring to Natal, as he was hired as researcher in Microsoft to work on project Natal.
But one thing is certain, he was hired because of his know how in motion control and head tracking, so, i´m positive that MS will use in on Natal and that, what we have seen so far is just the tip of the icerberg.
This is what he had to say about it last June

If you've been wondering why my project blog has been pretty quiet, I can finally say it is because I have been helping Xbox with Project Natal. If you haven't seen the vision video, it is definitely worth checking out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_txF7iETX0&feature=player_embedded
Now, I should preface by saying I don't deserve credit for anything that you saw at E3. A large team of very smart, very hard working people were involved in building the demos you saw on stage. The part I am working on has much more to do with making sure this can transition from the E3 stage to your living room - for which there is an even larger team of very smart, very hard working people involved. The other thing I should say is that I can't really reveal any details that haven't already been made public. Unfortunately.

Speaking as someone who has been working in interface and sensing technology for nearly 10 years, this is an astonishing combination of hardware and software. The few times I’ve been able to show researchers the underlying components, their jaws drop with amazement... and with good reason.

The 3D sensor itself is a pretty incredible piece of equipment providing detailed 3D information about the environment similar to very expensive laser range finding systems but at a tiny fraction of the cost. Depth cameras provide you with a point cloud of the surface of objects that is fairly insensitive to various lighting conditions allowing you to do things that are simply impossible with a normal camera.
But once you have the 3D information, you then have to interpret that cloud of points as "people". This is where the researcher jaws stay dropped. The human tracking algorithms that the teams have developed are well ahead of the state of the art in computer vision in this domain. The sophistication and performance of the algorithms rival or exceed anything that I've seen in academic research, never mind a consumer product. At times, working on this project has felt like a miniature “Manhattan project” with developers and researchers from around the world coming together to make this happen.

We would all love to one day have our own personal holodeck. This is a pretty measurable step in that direction.

Xbox and Microsoft deserve an enormous amount of credit for taking on such an ambitious project. It’s one thing to say “Wouldn’t it be cool if…”, but it’s another thing entirely to say, “let’s dedicate the resources to really make it happen inventing whatever needs to be invented along the way.” I have to say it's pretty neat building the future.

[Tron Bonne]

You´re reading comprehension is not the best, now is it?
But that´s alright, now you run along and go play with the other kids.

You're reading comprehension must be even worse since you apparently don't even know how to read what you're typing :whatever: But then again, of course you do. Just the same old nonsense you've been touting since I've seen you post here. It's flat out incredible that someone can be put down on two separate occasions and still stand behind their bogus claim.

[Isildur´s Heir]

Let me explain something to you (something i just know that you will forget in 5 minutes), to bash something is to say crap for the hell of it without giving any valid reasons to it, and that´s not the case (hence the all lacking of reading comprehension).
Besides, if you actually read some posts besides my owns, you will see i´m not the only one thinking the same way.
I´m calling Sony unoriginal and copycats, and i´m giving facts to it, and if you don´t agree with it fine, but don´t say i´m bashing them.
I don´t like Sony (gaming department), everyone in this boards know that, but i have nothing against the PS3 as a console and it´s games, that´s why it´s easier for me to find their flaws, not because i´m a MS fanboy like you said couple of times (but you can continue to do so if it rocks your boat, for i don´t care).
So, what´s your excuse?
And don´t say that you always defend Sony when i "bash" them because you are an altruistic man that likes to defend the "little people".

[Addendum]

Always funny seeing getting so worked up over comments about a company that no one on here owns

[hippie_hunter]

I don´t know who is ahead in Europe, but don´t read too much on it.
I already read rumors that say that MS is lying and they are 3rd place in Europe, but, like the name say, those are just rumors, the only facts we have are the numbers in both NPD and VGChartz and both claim that the 360 is still ahead.
The difference is minimal, only 0.46 million, but still...and even when MS claimed they were 1 million ahead, that was back in September, and, going by the numbers, they were right.
Sony reached 10 million back in August while Microsoft reached 10 million in November while claiming that they were 1 million ahead of Sony.

Besides, i don´t see the 360 losing second place anytime soon.
People are reading too much on the all "the PS3 slim is selling like hot cakes".
The Slim is only 2 months old (almost 3)....give it time, let´s talk again in 6 or 7 months.
Sure, the Playstation brand is still gigantic in comparison to the Xbox, that´s a given, that´s why i said, back in 2007/2008, that i wouldnt´be surprised if the PS3 ends on second place when all it´s set and done, and i still believe it can very well happen, but let´s wait first before opening the bottles of champagne.
I do agree that it won't happen anytime soon. I would expect it to sometime in late 2011/2012 if Sony continues to perform strongly in Japan and Europe and being serious competition in North America.

MS will never get the Japanese market, that´s a given, unless Natal is the biggest thing ever made and the Japanese love it to death.
Why would Japan buy a US console when they have to two great national ones? More even when they are not big on Western games?
Sony might very well still get the US maket, but i don´t count on it, the Americans love their 360 and the diference between both consoles in that maket is almost 9 million (19.24 million against 10.32 to be exact)
That leaves Europe, which, in their majority is still Sonyland, which makes the "fact" that the 360 is ahead there an epic sucess.
Still, the diference between the 360 and the PS3 overrall is still 6.69 million, which is still way more than in Japan which is only 2.7 million (the Wii is kicking both with 8.75 million units sold).
And i know that a lot of countries in Europe don´t look twice at the 360.
Like I said before in the past, Microsoft just needs to give up on Japan and focus on Europe which is starting to show interest in the brand and North America, their base.

Besides, once again, if you look at the numbers, the PS3 Slim is losing steam, it´s selling less and less each week and the diference with the 360 is becaming minimal once again.
In the week of the release of the Slim, the PS3 sold a hell lot (594,026 K), against 148,483 K from the 360, which was expected.
Exaclty one month later, the PS3 sold 246.319 K against 153.886.
In the first week this month the Sony sold 285.067 against 263.921.
And they are being outsold by the 360 every other week in the US.
And that´s just less than 2 months after the release of the Slim.
I'm very curious to see the November numbers once this month is done.

Lastly, and this one i find really stupid from the people buying the Sony console, people buy the PS3, but they don´t buy the games.
Once again, if you look at the numbers, 90% of the games sell more on the 360, hell, even the MW2 sold a lot more on the 360 and that came out in the mist of the PS3 Slim frenzy.
Even the exclusives don´t sell a lot when compared to the exclusives on the 360.
So, if people don´t buy the games, why do they buy the PS3?
My call, a lot of them buy it for the blu-ray alone.
You really can't blame them, the PS3 is one of the best blu-ray players on the market.

And it also depends on the genre of games. FPS games like Modern Warfare 2 sell much better on the 360 because in my opinion, the 360 is the better console for FPS games and it's the must have console for FPS fans. But if you take a look at fighting games like Tekken 6 and Street Fighter IV, the PS3 version sells better because the PS3 is the better console for fighting games. And RPGs like Tales of Vesperia and Star Ocean: The Last Hope sell better on the PS3 because the fanbases of those games played the previous entries on PlayStation consoles.

[hippie_hunter]

Oh yay, it's the IH bashing Sony game. I knew that one would get remade down the road

You´re reading comprehension is not the best, now is it?
But that´s alright, now you run along and go play with the other kids.

You're reading comprehension must be even worse since you apparently don't even know how to read what you're typing :whatever: But then again, of course you do. Just the same old nonsense you've been touting since I've seen you post here. It's flat out incredible that someone can be put down on two separate occasions and still stand behind their bogus claim.

Let me explain something to you (something i just know that you will forget in 5 minutes), to bash something is to say crap for the hell of it without giving any valid reasons to it, and that´s not the case (hence the all lacking of reading comprehension).
Besides, if you actually read some posts besides my owns, you will see i´m not the only one thinking the same way.
I´m calling Sony unoriginal and copycats, and i´m giving facts to it, and if you don´t agree with it fine, but don´t say i´m bashing them.
I don´t like Sony (gaming department), everyone in this boards know that, but i have nothing against the PS3 as a console and it´s games, that´s why it´s easier for me to find their flaws, not because i´m a MS fanboy like you said couple of times (but you can continue to do so if it rocks your boat, for i don´t care).
So, what´s your excuse?
And don´t say that you always defend Sony when i "bash" them because you are an altruistic man that likes to defend the "little people".

Is there really any need for this to get personal? I think that it's possible to debate the merits and faults of Sony and Microsoft without the need to get pissed off at one another :awesome:

[Isildur´s Heir]

Is there really any need for this to get personal? I think that it's possible to debate the merits and faults of Sony and Microsoft without the need to get pissed off at one another :awesome:
But he started it......bwahhhhhh...lol

[Tron Bonne]

Is there really any need for this to get personal? I think that it's possible to debate the merits and faults of Sony and Microsoft without the need to get pissed off at one another :awesome:

No, this here a' serious business :awesome:

I don't really care to be honest, but it was mostly that he hadn't really done anything like that for awhile, and he's doing it partially with something that's been debunked two previous times. He has other people saying it, too, but that doesn't really make it any less wrong.

So, what´s your excuse?
And don´t say that you always defend Sony when i "bash" them because you are an altruistic man that likes to defend the "little people".

Oh, it really must be repetition month. What's even funnier is that you berate me for 'forgetting' something, yet I've had to address this very statement at least thrice now to you.

I usually 'defend' them because, quite frankly, when you go on one of your whatever-you-want-to-call-it's, it is just so easy to defend. Remember the MGS4 thing, the Ghostbusters thing, the Sony and Natal thing, the impact on the industry thing, etc. You then either just drop off the conversation all together or you just cover up with 'Oh, my bad, I didn't know...". What's sad is that in that all of these instances all it takes is just the slightest bit of research to debunk these claims.

Also, I don't 'always' defend Sony. I give criticism to their games and moves. Hell, I was one of the first to agree with you when you started the thread about Sony's (then) new fee to things over PSN. I was very critical of the EyeToy and was a skeptic over the Blu-ray technology at first, and etc.

Whatever, I honestly don't care, and mostly said something because of the rush of Déjà vu. I gave up trying to actually argue with you along time ago. It's like throwing a rock down a never ending well, I might hit the sides, but there's no real bottom

[Isildur´s Heir]

Just to put Teardrop´s mind at rest and for him to have a good night sleep...

I do like the all "Build, Create, Play" series of games they are making.
It stated with Little Big Planet and next year there will be Modnation Racers, i do like that.
Not for the idea of Little Big Planet (because that was not Sony´s, that was.....errrr.....Linhead´s, and before you start something up, it was Media Molecule that said that, that the idea came to be when Media Molecule was part still part of Lionhead), but the all idea of create a series of games around it.
So, kudos for Sony for that idea.....

It´s also true that, sooner or late, Microsoft or Nintendo (or both) will develop something in that line, but, then again, it´s not unexpected...

[Tron Bonne]

Yeah, that was..a really good one there :dry:

[Isildur´s Heir]

Terminal Reality have Natal project in the works

Terminal Reality look to have a huge project on their hands. According to a few job listings, the Texas development studio is creating a Xbox 360 exclusive that's Natal enabled. Just one job listing gives off a few details project;
"Terminal Reality is looking for a Senior XBOX Live Programmer to play a critical role in the development of a future AAA title utilizing Natal. TRI offers a fun challenging atmosphere. We enjoy a collaborative team environment and a cool, active company-culture. This position will require someone with a strong desire to create top-quality ACTION games."

Not only that, but it seems DLC is already being planned;

"Implementing XBOX specific functionality such as Player Lobbies, Matchmaking, and DLC."

[Raiden]

Looks like Project Natal is coming out later this year (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34646122/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/)

In fact, the biggest news from Ballmer’s characteristically energetic presentation was that Project Natal — a module announced last year that will allow players to control the company’s Xbox game system with their bodies — would be released later this year.

[Dark_Lord]

Dev Diary (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/ces-2010-project-natal/60507)

Microsoft: Natal consumes 15 per cent of Xbox CPU power
Lead developer spills the beans (http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/microsoft-natal-consumes-15-per-cent-of-xbox-cpu-power-661952)

I think the above happens because they removed a chip (or something like that) from the camera and now part of the work Natal does is handled via software. I can't find the link right now.

[Isildur´s Heir]

I hope that, by holyday 2010, they mean Summer Holydays and not Christmas Holydays, because, IMO, the later just doesn´t make much sense.
Let´s say thay MS means christmas holydays, let´s say Natal comes out in Nov, don´t they find it a little bit too crowded for all launch games to be arriving in a time frame of two months?
Fable III included?
Will they really put Natal vs Halo: Reach?
I really hope it´s summer holydays.....but i bet it´s not...
Besides, Zeno Clash: Ultimate Edition is coming to the XBLA in the spring....it´s just me, or that game just screams Natal?


As for the all "use 15% of the 360 CPU"....
I don´t know, from what i´ve read, it is still just a rumor, but it´s a very frightening one.
Last E3, what was said was that Natal would have a dedicated CPU, which would make the 360 even better than it is, better even than the PS3 and a high-end PC.
Now, with this rumor, when Natal comes out, insted of the 360 becaming better, it will be worst.
The only good thing about the fact that MS dropped the chip in favor of a software solution is that it will make Natal less expensive and easier to update and upgrade.
But the bad part is that, if there was the debate if the 360 has already been maxed out, when Natal arrives....yes, it was already maxed out, and that Natal will be full of casual games, because hardcore games need power.
And even more frightful is that, things don´t start to look good for Fable III.

February can´t get here soon enough for everything about Natal to be announced.
And for the ones that don´t know, February is the month of Gamefest 2010, Microsoft Game Technology Conference, where Natal will make it´s official debut.

http://www.microsoftgamefest.com/

[Dark_Lord]

They would have said Summer. By Holidays the mean Nov.-Dec.

[Isildur´s Heir]

First news about GameFest, Fable III will debut there

Senior Communities and Video Manager at Lionhead Studios Sam Van Tilburgh has just confirmed to us (via Twitter) that two new video's of Fable III will be released next month, when the game is first shown off at an event. First off he said;

I'm writing storyboard summaries for two new #Fable3 videos @LionheadStudios

The second comment he made was in reply to us, where he said;

@ConnectConsoles videos are to come out when we show #Fable3 for the 1st time at an event next month in SF.

Fable III is out in the last period of 2010, plus the game will be Natal enabled. Everyone's a winner.

[Isildur´s Heir]

I hope Greenberg is trying to fool us all

It seems like 3D is the big focus here at the 2010 Consumer Electronics Show. It's nearly impossible to miss the demonstration displays and the weirdos with the crazy glasses on here at the show. It's all anyone is talking about. Microsoft's Xbox Director of Product Management, Aaron Greenberg, also noticed this, but it doesn't sound like he feels that 3D is going to change gaming anytime soon.

"I think there's a lot of questions, to be honest," Greenberg told us in a meeting here at CES. "3D is great in the theater, but for the living room? I think we're a long ways away from that."

While the Xbox 360 currently supports 3D with games like Avatar, Greenberg points to things like required sitting distances and the need for glasses as potential hurdles.

He adds: "If the consumers want it? Fine."

"In the theater there's nothing between you and the experience, but as you have other people in the room and other people walking by, well, it's not the same experience."

I´m still expecting Natal to bring 3D without glasses (making it a sucess from the get go), if not, why did Microsoft hired Johnny Lee Chung to work on Natal?
Sure the man might be a genius, but he is known for the 3D/Virtual Reality thing with the Wii.

[Havok83]

They would have said Summer. By Holydays the mean Nov.-Dec.
IA. Ive never heard summer be referred to as holiday season. That term is reserved for the Thanksgiving/Christmas months

[Isildur´s Heir]

IA. Ive never heard summer be referred to as holiday season. That term is reserved for the Thanksgiving/Christmas months
I didn´t knew that.
I´m not from an english speaking language country.
But ok, now i know :up:

[Isildur´s Heir]

Rumor of the day....

Rare is working on two games for Natal, one being already expected, and the other being a fitness game.

If most rumors are to be taken with a grain of salt, this grain should be the smallest one possible. And still, it may be true, so that's why we're reporting it.

According to site VG247, Rare, Microsoft's first-party studio famous for creating franchises like Banjo, Conker and Killer Instinct, is working on two games simultaneously. One is something that's expected (Killer Instinct 3? A new Banjo?). But the other is the most interesting tidbit, and it's supposedly a game like Wii Fit, but developed for Natal, Microsoft motion-sensing camera to be released in the future.

The words of the purported conversation are

“It’s a fitness game for Natal. Like Microsoft’s version of Wii Fit.”

"They’ve been working on it for a good while. There’s something else there you can probably guess at, but we’ll save that for another day. Don’t want you dumping me, do we?”

And supposedly Microsoft has declined to comment (always better than outright denying it)

I just can´t imagine Rare making a fitness game.
Sure, it´s expected for Microsoft to release one, after Wii Fit, everyone is doing it (EA, Ubisoft, THQ..), even Sony will release one (it´s a matter of logic), but i just can´t see Rare doing it...

[Benstamania]

That's the ONE thing I'm really going to hate about Natal...it will open the flood games for shovelware fitness games.

..Awesome.

[Isildur´s Heir]

That's the ONE thing I'm really going to hate about Natal...it will open the flood games for shovelware fitness games.
Don´t blame Natal for it, blame Nintendo and Wii Fit

[Benstamania]

Oh yeah, for sure.

[Isildur´s Heir]

Here it is, the first pic

http://www.vgchartz.com/photos/pics/3247106aaa.jpg







Ok, it´s the first picture of a Natal prototype model

[Yrik]

Natal plus Mass Effect 1 & 2 makes me REALLY want a 360. When's this coming out again?

[Soapy]

Christ...it reminds me of Short Circuit. :/

[Isildur´s Heir]

There is a very interesting interview with Peter Molyneux in Game Reactor (only 12 minutes long), about indie games and the future of Natal.
It´s at Game Jam in Copenhagen, and he is there, not as head of Lionhead, but as Creative Director of Microsoft Game Studios Europe.

http://www.gamereactor.eu/grtv/?id=6692

One thing i like is Molyneux saying that, when you look at movies, back in the day, the sci-fi ones had people writting on keyboards and whatnot; now, we have all movies doing a "Minority Report" kind of approach, which is basically what Natal is.

Another thing to have in mind (and that´s me, not Molyneux) is that, with Natal we can have a Wii, PS motion controller, IPad, DS and Microsoft Surface, all rolled up into one (plus, Natal´s own stuff); and that idea alone is amazing.
Of course, if Natal is all that, it can´t be as cheap as the rumors state.

[ProjectPat2280]

Natal plus Mass Effect 1 & 2 makes me REALLY want a 360. When's this coming out again?


Probably November. They say holiday 2010 so id assume itd be out before the shopping rush.

[Benstamania]

What's the rumored price tag for Natal? $100? Or more along the lines of video game pricing?

[Cth]

What's the rumored price tag for Natal? $100? Or more along the lines of video game pricing?

From what I remember, $30-40.

Likely getting bundled with some software.

[Havok83]

From what I remember, $30-40.

Likely getting bundled with some software.
where'd you read about it being that low? Rumors Ive read was in the $100 range

[KALEL114]

Here is one of the rumored price(s):

According to these undisclosed sources, Microsoft plans to ship 5 million Natal units when it launches in both stand-alone packages and packed in with Xbox 360 consoles. One anonymous source from a publisher said that Microsoft is "trying to get as close as possible to 'impulse buy,'" with the price likely to be set below £50 ($80), and possibly even as low as £30 ($50).

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3176878

[Soapy]

Nah, I've heard it's going to be pretty low as well. Supposedly the whole reason they took the processor out was to get the price <60 dollars. Coincidentally I also hear from people that have seen it since E3 that it isn't nearly as impressive as it was then.

[Isildur´s Heir]

Coincidentally I also hear from people that have seen it since E3 that it isn't nearly as impressive as it was then.
THAT...is my biggest concern.
Not that i´ve read anything on that regard, but that price tag so low makes me wonder if Natal is nothing more than a mediocre product.
I hope not.
Than again, Peter Molyneux loves Natal and is always saying how revolutionary it is and whatnot, and that gives me a certain kind of hope.
Like him or not, Molyneux is one of the biggest visionaries in video game history, so, i don´t expect him to be excited about any crap.

[Addendum]

Just the stuff that he works on. Game designer/PR

[Soapy]

THAT...is my biggest concern.
Not that i´ve read anything on that regard, but that price tag so low makes me wonder if Natal is nothing more than a mediocre product.
I hope not.
Than again, Peter Molyneux loves Natal and is always saying how revolutionary it is and whatnot, and that gives me a certain kind of hope.
Like him or not, Molyneux is one of the biggest visionaries in video game history, so, i don´t expect him to be excited about any crap.

IH, you can't believe anything Peter Molyneux says. He just pulls words out of ass.

Is he really a visionary if he fails time and time again to fully realize his "vision" in a game?

[Isildur´s Heir]

Either you guys don´t know, or you guys forget easily.

Peter Molyneux started his career in 1982, he is the creator of the so called "God games" with the amazing Populous and Powermonger.
He also did classics like Sindicate, Dungeon Keeper, Theme Hospital and Theme Park.
And, after the closing of Bullfrog, he created Black & White at Lionhead.
Little Big Planet, made by Media Molecule, which is a studio formed by former Lionhead employees, was created when they still where at Lionhead, and the majority of the ideas came from Peter Molyneux (which he allowed them to take and make the game, they said so in several interviews and in an episode of the Bonus Round on GameTrailers.com)
He was elected among the 5 best game developers ever (With Miyamoto, Romero, Wright and someone else) by his peers (don´t ask me for the list, i googled it and can´t find it).

Yes, since Fable is he pulling word out his ass, but, even so, and knowing all his background, i have the utmost respect for him.
But that´s me...

[Addendum]

And I never said that he "pulls crap out of his ass". Just that he gets excited about the crap he works on. So of course, he's going to be excited about Natal.

But thanks for the rehash from Wikipedia about Molyneux.

[Isildur´s Heir]

But thanks for the rehash from Wikipedia about Molyneux.
:)

But believe when i say i didn´t looked at wikipedia when i wrote that.

[KALEL114]

You can respect the man for his past work, but you can not take him for his word at anything. He is notorious for over hyping things. You just can't over look that because of past achievments.

Speaking of Peter and Natal.

Peter Molyneux, the guy who designs those Fable games and runs (http://kotaku.com/5278213/peter-molyneux-now-director-of-microsoft-european-studios) Microsoft's European studios, sees Project Natal as more than just another motion peripheral.
For him, it's the peripheral is akin to some like the computer mouse.
"If you're thinking that Natal is going to give you another version of an FPS, you're just not thinking broadly enough," Molyneux told Gamereactor. "After all, it was the invention of the mouse that gave us computing as it is today — not the invention of the microprocessor."
That, the game designer points out, is how we have come to control our computers.
"The mouse was the real revolution of the PC — not the Intel processor. And who's to say Natal couldn't end up creating something you and I can't even imagine now. It forces us to approach technology in a completely different way. Before the mouse, we only had the keyboard."
But we already have a controller...to control our video games... Okay, fine, I see what he is saying!


http://kotaku.com/5466590/peter-molyneux-natal-could-change-interaction-like-the-mouse

[Isildur´s Heir]

Peter Molyneux, the guy who designs those Fable games and runs Microsoft's European studios, sees Project Natal as more than just another motion peripheral.
For him, it's the peripheral is akin to some like the computer mouse.
"If you're thinking that Natal is going to give you another version of an FPS, you're just not thinking broadly enough," Molyneux told Gamereactor. "After all, it was the invention of the mouse that gave us computing as it is today — not the invention of the microprocessor."
That, the game designer points out, is how we have come to control our computers.
"The mouse was the real revolution of the PC — not the Intel processor. And who's to say Natal couldn't end up creating something you and I can't even imagine now. It forces us to approach technology in a completely different way. Before the mouse, we only had the keyboard."
But we already have a controller...to control our video games... Okay, fine, see what he is saying!
That is from the interview i posted a link of.
And....he is right, so?
The mouse was indeed the biggest thing to ever grace the video game industry, it is still the best peripheral there is, and can only be surpassed by motion control.
Because many "motion control haters" (i´m not saying you are one) don´t realise that, the mouse is, to some degree, motion control.
The mouse is nothing more than an extension of your arm.
And Natal can very well be the "new mouse", we don´t know until we tried it out.

In that same interview he gives another example, movies.
Back in the day, all sci-fi movies where about keyboards and whatnot; now, every sci-fi movie has characters working computers and whatnot with movement, in a "Minority Report" style, well....Natal is like that also.

Bottom line, we don´t know until we see and try it

But i give you, since Fable, he does have the tendency to overhype stuff

[Addendum]

I'm fine using a controller for my consoles and my emulated games on my PC, and a mouse and keyboard for my PC games.

[Cth]

Pandamar is right.. the lower price is due to the chip being pulled.

Which makes sense, in a few ways:

1) It does lower the physical cost
2) It alllows them to upgrade the camera without replacing the entire line.

It's software based, and MS is pretty good when it comes to software. Small system patches/updates pushed globally, etc.

Anyways, I think Natal will be fine, it's just a matter of developers taking advantage of it properly. Most will utilize it as a form of "logging in" or simple interface navigation (flipping pages).. most will ignore the FPS aspects outside of racing games.

Most will allow for dual input presumably.

You'll likely see hybrids where you control the character and toss grenades or look around corners, etc.

[Benstamania]

Say what you want about Peter Molyneux...but I was happy with Fable and more so with Fable II. Based on what he said about his decision for Fable III and how it could "Really tick people off" I have a feeling that you will HAVE to have Natal to play it.

Which...really wouldn't tick me off. If it ends up as low as 50 bucks, I'll have no problem buying it.

...As long as Microsoft SUPPORTS it so it doesn't become EyeToy/PlaystationEye 2.0.

[Isildur´s Heir]

Say what you want about Peter Molyneux...but I was happy with Fable and more so with Fable II. Based on what he said about his decision for Fable III and how it could "Really tick people off" I have a feeling that you will HAVE to have Natal to play it.

Which...really wouldn't tick me off. If it ends up as low as 50 bucks, I'll have no problem buying it.
Molyneux said that it will tick people off, but it´s a change that makes sense at this time, so, yeah, i bet that it is the Natal support.

...As long as Microsoft SUPPORTS it so it doesn't become EyeToy/PlaystationEye 2.0.
That, i´m sure will not happen.
I don´t see Microsoft letting Natal die.

[Soapy]

Fable III requiring Natal wouldn't piss me off, I would just lose interest. Although I'm sure it would probably piss off the business-minded folks at Lionhead. :D

[Cth]

I would imagine that Fable III comes bundled with Natal, but is limited in how it's utilized.

Like say, scanning in your head and creating a character likeness using your face as a base model.

From what we know so far of Fable 3, the first half is overthrowing a king, and the second half is reacting to an invading army. A big part is supposedly making judgements on your subjects, so we'll likely get a Thumbs Up/Down/Off With His Head type motion game.

Hard to say really without more information. It sounds like the ticked off part is in reference to dropping some of the RPG elements and making it more of a sim type game.

[Isildur´s Heir]

An easy way to use Natal in Fable III is the expressions, with we, the gamer, making the expressions insted of choosing them.
If people like it or not it´s irrelevant, but the point is, imo, the worst thing that can happen with Natal (or any other form of motion control, for that matter) is using both control methods, the motion and the classic controller.
For example, to be controlling a character with the gamepad, and then, having to put the controller aside to make somekind of hands movement, that´s, imo, a big fail.

Like say, scanning in your head and creating a character likeness using your face as a base model.
I believe that will happen more than once with 360 games after Natal gets released, but i don´t see it in Fable.
But i do see it in Halo, when Master Chief takes his helmet off (it will happen, it´s a matter of time), he looks like the player (but in in-game graphics).
On the other hand, we all know MC is a man (he is called John), so, it might be a little problematic for women gamers.

[Dark_Lord]

This is from Major Nelson's (Xbox Live Director of Programming) twitter

DVR Alert: Check out Chloe playing "Project Natal" for Xbox 360 on Smallville, tonight, 8:00 P.M. on the CW.

:oldrazz:

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm sure the 10 people who've managed to continue watching Smallville without gouging their eyes out with rusty spoons will get a kick out of it. ;)

[Isildur´s Heir]

Still no word on Natal.
Guess we will have to wait for E3 to see it in action

[Coca Cola Duracell Franklin.]

We've already seen Natal in action. Now we just need to see a game that actually makes motion control (on any system) worth a damn.

[SuperAl]

i dont really see how this will work in actual REAL games, not stupid party games and painting ur screen/blocking balls i have no interest in that stuff. Unless they want us to physically run/walk in place to make our character move, im guessin theyll end up releasing some joystick you have to hold in ur hand while u play a game. Also how will it detect you pulling a gun trigger in shooters, so many questions there will most likely be all these extra accessories youll have to buy to play normal games, im still very very skeptical that this will appeal to anyone other than casual gamers.

[Soapy]

Well...that's kind of the point. Natal was made specifically to appeal to casual gamers. Not sure why you thought otherwise.

[Isildur´s Heir]

...there will most likely be all these extra accessories youll have to buy to play normal games...
Don´t expect that to happen, unless Microsoft is on drugs.
If they released accessories, it goes against the all "controller free gaming" thing.
Of course, if by acessories you are not talking about controllers.....then ok...

Well...that's kind of the point. Natal was made specifically to appeal to casual gamers. Not sure why you thought otherwise.
And you arrived to that conclusion because....:huh:
No one in Microsoft as said that it was made specifically to appeal to casual gamers, and no one ever will because it´s not true.

[Soapy]

I arrived at that conclusion through the use of logic and common sense.

[Isildur´s Heir]

I arrived at that conclusion through the use of logic and common sense.
And your logic and common sense say that a company is making a new peripheral just for casual gamers...
A company is making a million dollar peripheral just for a small part of the market....

Unless you think that Sony made the Playstation Move only for casual gamers too, i see no logic in your logic.

[Crook]

The Wii's vast success and primary focus on motion controls would tell you that the 'casual gamer' is far from a small market. There are more hardcore gamers on both 360 and PS3, but Nintendo has both of them beat combined.

[Havok83]

i dont really see how this will work in actual REAL games, not stupid party games and painting ur screen/blocking balls i have no interest in that stuff. Unless they want us to physically run/walk in place to make our character move, im guessin theyll end up releasing some joystick you have to hold in ur hand while u play a game. Also how will it detect you pulling a gun trigger in shooters, so many questions there will most likely be all these extra accessories youll have to buy to play normal games, im still very very skeptical that this will appeal to anyone other than casual gamers.
we'll definetly have to wait to see MS demo this thing some more, bc I fail to see how it will be implemented in more traditional games as well

[Isildur´s Heir]

The Wii's vast success and primary focus on motion controls would tell you that the 'casual gamer' is far from a small market. There are more hardcore gamers on both 360 and PS3, but Nintendo has both of them beat combined.
Sure, and that´s what Sony and Microsoft are making, a peripheral that supports both types of gamers.
Of course, that it´s easier to see it at something for the casual, more even with Natal, because no one can imagine how to move a character without a "nunchuck" or "PS Move subcontroller", but that´s for them (developers) to know and we to find out.

But i don´t care, i just don´t care about what Microsoft does until they give me something to think otherwise.
Between the lack of first party studios, and the games being released multiplatform (360 and PC), i just don´t care anymore, imo, either the 360 is Microsoft´s last console or they just lost it.
Now, there are talks that Project Natal is going to the PC, the same happening with Fable III....there are even rumors that 360 will be ported to the Iphone and Android smartphones, it´s just ridiculous.

http://www.cooltechzone.com/2010/03/13/microsoft-xbox-360-games-coming-to-iphone-soon/

The more the time passes, the more i see no reason to buy a 360, because everything they have will end of another platform, and more than not, a better version of it.
I´m just waiting for the 360 game to go to the PS3....

[Isildur´s Heir]

One thing i can say and really believe, if Natal ends on sucking, it´s the end of Microsoft in the console business.

[Addendum]

It didn't bother at all when Bioshock appeared on the PS3, nor did it bother me when it was announced that the GTA 4 DLC that was "exclusive" for the 360 was also going to be on the PS3. I certainly don't care if Natal appears on PC.

I'll just continue to play the games that interest me.

[Fading]

About Natal not being for more than casual games, I agree to a point. I think party games and games that otherwise don't need complex controls will be it's mainstay. I can also see mixing it in with the regular controller working some like how the sixaxis motion controls are occasionally used. Heavy Rain would be a good example, you're walking in Fable and then something happens and maybe you have to wave your hand to make something happen. Other than that, I honestly never saw Natal as a gaming tool as much as an immersion tool.

Take an FPS for example, how would you point and shoot? I'd imagine you'd point your finger out towards the target and then tap your fingers towards the target repeatedly until it registered. Would that be as fast and accurate as pressing a button tho? Would it be as fun? I can't see it being more fun or accurate. I can't imagine playing something like the torture scenes in MGS where you had to rapidly press the X button for an extended period of time, unless they drasitcally lowered the amounts of times you needed to press it.

I know Natal will be accurate, but I also think you'll have to clear out a large space to play some of the games, and will have to be careful about scratching your nose or ear while playing. I think Natal will hit a similar casual nerve that the Wii hits, but not to the same extent. I also think the hardcore crowd will mainly skip over it. I could be wrong, but I don't see it being as major of a hit as many made it out to be during it's unveiling (revolutionary, next step in gaming, and other terms like that).

None of that is a knock tho, I think it'll sell well enough to cover it's R&D expenses. I just don't think it'll do what a lot of ppl think it will.

[Fading]

One thing i can say and really believe, if Natal ends on sucking, it´s the end of Microsoft in the console business.

I don't think it'll be the end, the 360 still sells too well in the US and does so well in software sales I don't see anything short of some major disaster halting sales (tho I do think they could very well slow down). I think it just despends on how much MS is banking on Natal. Lately they've released a few good exclusives (like ME2), but more and more ppl are complaining about the 360 falling behind in exclusives. If it turns out they pushed off support behind non Natal related IP's in order to focus entirely on Natal as the future of the Xbox, and sales of Natal don't do very well, I think the Xbox brand will be fine but MS will have to scramble a bit to recover some of the losses.

To try and clarify a bit more, I mean if they (for whatever reason) decided to make Mass Effect 3 or Fable a pure Natal title, and Natal bombs, they'll have a Lair situation. Ppl will complain about the controls, MS will continue to push support for the title, and eventually a patch will come out fixing the controls to be more in line with the normal controller. By then sales will not have been as good as they could have been, and word of mouth and reviews will put ppl off to the series. Not saying that will happen, but if MS sees Natal as that huge, I wouldn't be surprised to see atleast one of their major exclusives being tied to Natal to push it.

[Soapy]

Good grief Isildur's Heir, you're such a chicken little about this stuff. :funny:

[KALEL114]

Quick question. Can Natal detect more than one person at a time or would players have to take turns using it? For example, a fighting game where I can fight a friend or just an offline co-op game.

[StrainedEyes]

One thing i can say and really believe, if Natal ends on sucking, it´s the end of Microsoft in the console business.

The 360 is a success, despite massive hardware issues. I doubt Natal failing will force MS out of the console business.

[Isildur´s Heir]

The 360 is a success, despite massive hardware issues. I doubt Natal failing will force MS out of the console business.
You guys are missing the point.
If Natal fails, Microsoft will not be forced out of the console business; if Natal fails, Microsoft loses the small credibility they still have, they became nothing more than a joke.
Microsoft is already one of the most hated companies in the world, so, for them to became a joke is not that difficult, all it takes is a failure on a extremely hyped peripheral.

[Soapy]

No, if Natal fails it will just be the most recent in long line of failed peripherals from every console manufacturer.

[StrainedEyes]

You guys are missing the point.
If Natal fails, Microsoft will not be forced out of the console business; if Natal fails, Microsoft loses the small credibility they still have, they became nothing more than a joke.
Microsoft is already one of the most hated companies in the world, so, for them to became a joke is not that difficult, all it takes is a failure on a extremely hyped peripheral.

You're funny.

[Addendum]

No, if Natal fails it will just be the most recent in long line of failed peripherals from every console manufacturer.

Exactly.

[Cth]

You guys are missing the point.
If Natal fails, Microsoft will not be forced out of the console business; if Natal fails, Microsoft loses the small credibility they still have, they became nothing more than a joke.

Microsoft is already one of the most hated companies in the world, so, for them to became a joke is not that difficult, all it takes is a failure on a extremely hyped peripheral.

They said the same thing about the Zune and the leap year bug. The same one that hit the PS3 this year ;)

If Natal does bomb, here's the most likely scenario. Apple is emboldened enough to enter the market with their own gaming system. They've been dabbling with the idea for a while now and if MS falters, it'd give them an opening to chip away at.

Especially since they're paranoid about Google entering into their territory (phones) so they've been poaching other markets (ebooks/tablets) to expand.

[Isildur´s Heir]

I don´t know if Project Natal will be big or not, but, it will have it´s own press conference day on June 13, with Microsoft´s main media briefing on June 14.
E3 officially starts on June 15 and ends on June 17.
So, for the first time, a company will have two press conferences on E3.

http://kotaku.com/5502117/project-natal-world-premiere-starts-this-years-e3-on-a-sunday

[Isildur´s Heir]

Double post

[Flash Facts]

That's good news to me. With the rumors of how natal focused E3 was going to be for Microsoft I thought there may not have been much news that would interest "core" gamers. With Natal having a separate conferences that leave a lot of room to show off other kinds of software.

[KALEL114]

River Rush leaked by filmmaker.

On his personal blog, Gunn describes River Rush as two player kayaking type game where both participants steer the boat by stepping right or left.

As you rush down right rapids, you have to jump up and slap floating stars in the air – the whole raft jumps up every time you do," he says. Sounds like high potential for midair collisions.


http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/04/340x_custom_1271619355069_img_1792.jpg

More after the jump.

http://kotaku.com/5519934/filmmakers-blog-outs-canoeing+style-project-natal-game

[Timstuff]

I'm pretty much convinced that Natal is turning into a high-tech eyetoy. It could offer some fun novelty games, but I really don't see it being a viable platform for serious gaming since there's a lot of limitations on what can be done with it. Buttons and stuff are kind of a necessity, because there's only so much you can do with just body gestures. Sony looked at this same technology years ago but decided that it wasn't enough of a leap over current eyetoy tech. Maybe MS figured something out with it that Sony didn't, but I'm unsure of what kind of future there is for controller-free gaming at this point.

[Grommers]

You guys are missing the point.
If Natal fails, Microsoft will not be forced out of the console business; if Natal fails, Microsoft loses the small credibility they still have, they became nothing more than a joke.
Microsoft is already one of the most hated companies in the world, so, for them to became a joke is not that difficult, all it takes is a failure on a extremely hyped peripheral.


there is just so much wrong with this.
hell, i dont even want to reply to this as it seems like a blatant troll..but for the chance it isn't a troll..

Microsoft is not a hated company..if it was, people would not buy from it. ps3 to 360 sales..360 is still winning..despite red rings.

if natal fails, it fails, i know tons of people that are xbox 4 life, as they have some big hitters for there systems.


a peripheral is a relatively irrelevelant thing..it will limit some games, but you know that there is no way that halo 4 (when it comes or if it does) will still be using a controller to ensure competitive play or if its done on natal, that it has the same reaction times that a controller would have.

Thats just very basic thinking on my part, I would hate to see all the stuff the developers who get paid to sit there and think about this think about, in terms of issues and problems.

[Raiden]

I'm pretty much convinced that Natal is turning into a high-tech eyetoy. It could offer some fun novelty games, but I really don't see it being a viable platform for serious gaming since there's a lot of limitations on what can be done with it. Buttons and stuff are kind of a necessity, because there's only so much you can do with just body gestures. Sony looked at this same technology years ago but decided that it wasn't enough of a leap over current eyetoy tech. Maybe MS figured something out with it that Sony didn't, but I'm unsure of what kind of future there is for controller-free gaming at this point.

That's my feelings as well. Natal imo will not be able to offer games that have real depths in the future, due to the absence of traditional buttons and apparatus (like the Playstation Move does). We may get a driving game out of it, but games like Socom (which will have a Playstation Move edition) will not be possible on Natal. Hopefully Microsoft will figure out a way to make it more viable for hardcore gamers.

[KALEL114]

Behold a manual

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/04/500x_natal_guide.jpg

http://kotaku.com/5520812/project-natal--its-instruction-manual-in-the-wild

[KALEL114]

At least three Swedish retailers are listing a price for upcoming Xbox 360 motion controller Project Natal, and it's not good.
While UK sources were telling MCV (http://kotaku.com/5402009/rumor-project-natal-launches-november-2010-14-games-might-be-cheap) that the motion controller would run $80, perhaps less, the three Swedish retail sites are all listing the device for 1,499 SEK, which works out to just under a whopping $200. Now keep in mind a $60 game runs nearly $80, but that's still a pretty penny if it's correct.
There's also a very strong possibility that this is a placeholder price. I certainly hoping that's the case, but I don't see a lot of people lining up to buy a peripheral that costs as much as the console that uses it.
Project Natal (http://forums.superherohype.com/%20http://cdon.se/spel/microsoft_-_natal_(working_title)-8564232), also here (http://www.webhallen.com/spel/xbox_360/) and here (http://www.game.se/acatalog/NATAL_360_Xbox_360.html).

http://kotaku.com/5540223/swedish-retailers-spill-project-natal-price-and-its-expensive#

[Fading]

Honestly, I think Natal is probably the most misunderstood and confusingly talked about piece of hardware since this generation started. Especially considering all we've officially seen is a paint and ball catching game, and heard the developers say it's hard to work with.

I mean on other sites I've seen ppl say the 360 will have Natal packaged and sell for $200. You have ppl guessing it'll boost the 360's performance like an add on pack. Also that Natal will sell less than most official controllers at $50 for a stand alone Natal unit.

The above posts $200 sounds a bit high (IMO), but probably much closer to what it will be than what 50% of the internet is guessing. Natal is not going to be bundled with an elite unit and sold for an arcade price. If an Eyetoy sells for $30 by itself years after it's release (and almost being an irrelevant product until Move revives it on top of that), Natal is not going to be given away for free. Everyones so focused on the Moves pricing that they're going to be shocked when they see Natal's actual price tag. I don't think Natal will be $200, but I do think it'll be inbetween $100-$150.

I'm sure Microsoft is willing to eat some of that production cost to get it out there, but this is Microsoft. By that I mean that they charge $100 for a Wi-fi adaptor, they charge above normal market price for their harddrives. They'll charge less for Natal than it probably costs to build, but I doubt by too much. From what I've seen it's not just a small camera, it's a bulky product that has computer components built into it to help with processing, ect. Of course this is all my opinion and I could be wrong.

[imaperson2]

so I got this invitation from Microsoft/LIVE to experience Natal with Cirque de Soleil but I can't go. It says you have to reserve your spot QUICKLY (you and 4 other people) in order to go. Problem is, I can't go :(

Anyone want to take my spot in Los Angeles, CA? I can only use the reserve code once so PM me if you want it...and hopefully they will let you in even though it wouldn't be ME going. :D

It's June 14 btw.

[KALEL114]

MCV has been lead to believe that reports citing a $149 RRP (£103) for Microsoft’s Project Natal are accurate.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/39166/Natal-to-cost-149-change-name

If true, I guess they decided not to go the "impulse buy" route. It's not $200, but still too high for me at least.

[Soapy]

God, Microsoft (and Sony) are completely oblivious about the Wii's success. They just don't ****ing get it.

[KALEL114]

More info.


That’s according to a trusted source (http://www.edge-online.com/news/first-gears-of-war-3-gameplay-details), who told us that the motion sensing camera will also be bundled with the Xbox 360 Arcade console for $299.
We were informed that prices outside of the US would be determined based on a number of factors, including exchange rates. Based on current rates, the standalone unit would retail for £103 / €121, and the console and Natal bundle for £207 / €243.
The figure for the standalone unit is significantly higher than a previous sub-£50 estimate (http://www.edge-online.com/news/sub-%C2%A350-natal-to-launch-november-2010-report), but less than pricing recently suggested (http://www.edge-online.com/news/swedish-retailers-out-high-natal-price) by European retailers. It’s also more expensive than Sony’s Natal rival Move, which will be available later this year with a game for less than $100 (http://www.edge-online.com/news/36-third-party-developers-supporting-ps-move).
Our source said that the device has been pencilled in for an October 26 worldwide launch, although we were advised that the date could yet shift by a few weeks either way.
We were also told Microsoft’s camera definitely won’t be called Natal and that its proper title will be revealed at E3 next month. It will also be heavily targeted at causal players and families.
“Microsoft expects to sell millions and millions of Natal units in its first year on the market so you can expect the software launch line-up to target non-traditional gamers,” our source said. “A major marketing campaign will also play a key role in attracting and educating the expanded audience about Xbox 360’s controller-free revolution.”
When contacted about this report, Microsoft told us that it "does not comment on rumour or speculation”.


http://www.edge-online.com/news/natal-to-cost-149-%E2%80%93-source

[Fading]

God, Microsoft (and Sony) are completely oblivious about the Wii's success. They just don't ****ing get it.

I agree. Sony has a better price set for Move as well as more versatility (camera plus wands), but still treats it as a peripheral. Microsoft is treating it like a new console launch, but prices it as much as an entire stand alone console.

For the Wii casuals Microsoft wants to snatch they'll find it too expensive. For Sony it'll only be price effective if they already own a PS3.

For me tho, if I wanted a Wii I would have bought one. Natal being as much as a Wii? Why not just buy a Wii instead and get franchises like Mario instead of taking a gamble with Natal as it's only shown 2 functioning games. With Move, it just happens to play to my specific situation. Motion controls DO NOT sell a console for me. On a taste basis the 360 and Wii just don't appeal enough to me software wise enough to warrant a purchase, so their motion controls certainly don't help. However Sony is treating Move as a peripheral rather than making it the consoles focus, and I already have a PS3. So since a Move bundle + a game will cost a bit more than a regular game, why not. Tho mainly it was some very impressive tech demos that sold me, where Microsoft has shown next to nothing.

In the end, I think a lot of ppl will be like I am on this. Move and Natal will mainly sell to those who already own a PS3 and 360 already. Maybe Sony will snag a few Wii hold outs who want an HD console, but don't want to leave the familiar motion controls behind. Maybe Microsoft will get a few tech junkies who want it based on hands free controls being like some futuristic movie wetdream. However I don't think either will snag the Wii's casual mainstream crowd. They'll both sell millions to current PS3 and 360 owners, fanboys and the gaming media will say it spells doom to the other console, but in the end casuals will still be buying Wii's and few new customers will be pulled in to the HD consoles.

[Addendum]

I don't think that many 360 users will purchase Natal or whatever Microsoft decides to call it.

[Dark_Lord]

I don't think that many 360 users will purchase Natal or whatever Microsoft decides to call it.

It all depends on the games.

[KALEL114]

Rumor: Natal will Become Wave.

NowGamer has learnt from a source close to Microsoft that the official name for Project Natal will be revealed as 'Wave' at the event in Los Angeles next month.

http://xbox-360.nowgamer.com/news/3284/natal-to-be-christened-wave-at-e3

[Soapy]

If that's true, then it's a good name for it. It's friendly and sort of describes how it works.

I wonder if they will brand it as "Xbox Wave" or "Microsoft Wave".

[Raiden]

It all depends on the games.

I for one won't get Natal, because I can see the shortcomings of technology with the lack of a gaming device like PS3 Move, and unless they can convince me otherwise I don't think it's worth to shell out alot for something that will probably be extremely expensive. Besides, I have a Wii, so I'm set with games that Natal will attempt to do.

[Havok83]

Im not sure I like the Wave name. I prefer Natal and think they should stick with it

[KALEL114]

It's the Wave of the future!!

Seriously, I actually like Natal better as well.

[Havok83]

people are already looking at it negatively as just waving your hands in the air. This new name doesnt do much to change that image. MS has done a lot of work making the name Natal recognizable and getting the buzz out there for it.

[Soapy]

I think you're overestimating how many people recognize Natal. The only ones that have been buzzing about it are the tech and game nerds.

[Dark_Lord]

Unless I'm mistaken, MS already has something named Wave, so I don't think they'd use the same name for Natal.

[Bob-omb]

I work at GameStop and from the sounds of things Sony's Move won't be much cheaper. The ice cream cone wands may be around 70 bucks with the "nunchuck" (sorry...that's what it is..) being around 30.

These prices aren't set in stone...but we heard about Natal...or Wave...or whatever being 149 before as well. If Sony/Microsoft want to succeed at this they better keep their stuff reasonably priced. The hardcore won't run out and buy this stuff and the casual already have a Wii...

[Fading]

Honestly, I can't imagine the Move controller will cost as much alone as the entire Move pack. Sony already announced a Move + PS Eye + game would be under $100 (anything from $69.99 to $99.99). If a stand alone Move costed as much as that entire pack Sony would look like idiots. Not that Sony is great on pricing (see PSP Go, and PS3 up until the Slim launch).

My guess is $49.99 to place it at the same price as a Dualshock. It would also make sense because $50 for the Move + $30 for the PS Eye = $80. It'd be like buying the Move and PS Eye, and almost getting the game for free (depending on if the pack is $80 or $90). It would make the pack appealing without invalidating a single Move purchase. I mean if the difference inbetween a Move, and a Move + PS Eye + a game was $10 or so bucks, why would anyone buy a single Move? Why not buy the pack and sell off the camera and game, you'd actually end up with more money that way.

Not that I'm defending Sony, and $70 is possible, it'd just make no sense and be suicide for the Move IMO.

[Bob-omb]

No, it doesn't make sense...but Sony tends to have a poor track record with...um, knowing how to price stuff.

I DO hope it's on the cheaper side though...for both of 'em.

[KALEL114]

Yeah, I still don't know what they were thinking with the PSPGo price. The PS3 price made sense, but they screwed up on the Go big time. I don't think they will price the move controllers that high ($70) though. Guess we will have to wait and see.

[KALEL114]

New video featuring the production model of Natal/Wave. It also shows the rafting game, River Rush, desrcibed before.

Jm0KKa6wACQ

So much funny avatar material there.LOL.

[Fading]

New video featuring the production model of Natal/Wave. It also shows the rafting game, River Rush, desrcibed before.

Jm0KKa6wACQ

So much funny avatar material there.LOL.

Oh my....and with this one video games take a 20 year leap back putting video gamers on the same level as comic nerds again :(. It will be the equivalent to gamers that "It's still real to me!!!" was to wrestling fans.



On a more serious note, this does bring up an issue to me....how does 4 adult players work? That worked because the two children were ant sized and they had a lot of space cleared out. Forget Wii elbow, how is everyone going to flail around like that without it giving everyone bruises and black eyes like they were just in a bar fight. Tho...I guess blood would add to Natal/Wave's realism.

[Havok83]

New video featuring the production model of Natal/Wave. It also shows the rafting game, River Rush, desrcibed before.

Jm0KKa6wACQ

So much funny avatar material there.LOL.
HAHA, that stuff looks embarassing

[Solidus]

No, it doesn't make sense...but Sony tends to have a poor track record with...um, knowing how to price stuff.

.

Either does MS. A 100 dollar wireless network adapter. 150 dollar HD's. Actually if you break down what the launch PS3 has compared to the original 400 dollar 360 PS3 was a deal it's just many look at things short sighted. I could break it down, but if you want I will PM ya with that.

But with Natal, I will most likely pass. It just seems none of the games I want to play will be something I want utilized here. I'd rather play Halo, Gears, and Mass Effect with my controller not my whole body. Natal has too many things going against it that will make it hard to get into peoples homes. First it seems you need a giant room or a bigger living room to do some of these things. Second I play games to stimulate my mind, I work out separately to work out. I play games to relax hear a good story or challenge my mind. Not to jump around. Third, I just could see people laughing while you play Natal lol.

I just don't see how the big guns for MS like Halo and so forth could ever really use Natal and make it feel right. I think Sony/MS are not wise for going into the motion control market. It's great for the masses, but I think motion control is just a bad thing. I only play my Wii for first party Nintendo games like Mario/Metroid/Zelda ect. I just think the motion control stuff is a gimmick and for gamers like us is limited in its capacity. Buttons will be needed for some time yet I think.

[Fading]

About pricing, I think Sony and Microsoft are switching positions for this. Sony bundled everything together for the PS3 and launched it for a higher price. With the 360 you had a cheaper, more barebones system making it much more accessible. However Microsoft nickle and dimed you with overprice harddrives, recharge packs since the controllers use batteries, Live, Wi-fi adapters, and so on. A launch PS3 felt like a rip off to many (which the price drop fixed) because not everyone wanted those extra features that drove the price up. However if you did want everything, a 360 was much more expensive.

This time around it looks like a role reversal. Natal/Wave will launch at a higher price point, but virtually be 4 controllers (tho I see 4 player games being a nightmare for it space wise). Where Move will launch much lower, but end up costing more if you want 4 controllers. Now personally, I probably won't be having 4 player Move party sessions. However I'll probably be buying the Move bundle (let's say $80), another Move (let's say $50), and a Navigation (probably around $30). So to get everything I need to be able to use the Move to it's fullest single player wise, and allow a second player I'll roughly be paying Natal/Wave's price. For someone just buying the bundle it will be cheaper, but the more performance you want out of it the more it'll add up.


In the end I think whichever is more expensive will be a more personal question dealing with what you want out of the products.

[Solidus]

About pricing, I think Sony and Microsoft are switching positions for this. Sony bundled everything together for the PS3 and launched it for a higher price. With the 360 you had a cheaper, more barebones system making it much more accessible. However Microsoft nickle and dimed you with overprice harddrives, recharge packs since the controllers use batteries, Live, Wi-fi adapters, and so on. A launch PS3 felt like a rip off to many (which the price drop fixed) because not everyone wanted those extra features that drove the price up. However if you did want everything, a 360 was much more expensive.

This time around it looks like a role reversal. Natal/Wave will launch at a higher price point, but virtually be 4 controllers (tho I see 4 player games being a nightmare for it space wise). Where Move will launch much lower, but end up costing more if you want 4 controllers. Now personally, I probably won't be having 4 player Move party sessions. However I'll probably be buying the Move bundle (let's say $80), another Move (let's say $50), and a Navigation (probably around $30). So to get everything I need to be able to use the Move to it's fullest single player wise, and allow a second player I'll roughly be paying Natal/Wave's price. For someone just buying the bundle it will be cheaper, but the more performance you want out of it the more it'll add up.


In the end I think whichever is more expensive will be a more personal question dealing with what you want out of the products.

I agree on many of those points. The thing is though many of the features that were "teased" of the PS3 are now loved. Including free online service. Blu ray is huge now. Sony usually looks more long term. And to me MS has shown again and again they fly by the seat of their pants.

Not saying that is bad, but I still think Sony got very very unnecessary crap mainly from fanboys when it was launched. I'm lucky enough to have all three consoles though, cuz all have great value to me.

As for the Natal stuff you make great points. It's just I don't think many are going to want this. I just foresee so many problems with it. Other objects flying through the room, people walking in and out, people talking to one another and Natal responds to it. To me it just does not seem to jive with video games of today. I just think Natal/Move are trying to move in on other markets but I think Nintendo has claimed most of them pretty tight.

I just really don't see myself getting either of em. If anything yea it may be fun for party games. But living in an apartment while going to college has limited my living space. I just don't think I will be jumping for any of them. I will never say never, but I just have a feeling Sony/MS are gonna miss with it. But I've been wrong before.

[Fading]

I agree that Sony did receive more than it's fair share of hate early this gen. Going on the net and admitting you had a PS3 early on almost always was met with a, "Why would you buy a $600 paper weight?", and the "PS3 has no games" argument continued for a long while. I also agree with MS flying by the seat of it's pants. It rushed to the market and had the RROD problems, and threw money at it to fix it, yet even now it still carries that image with cutomers. Now sales for it are sagging quickly, and MS isn't addressing it but instead waiting for E3 hoping devoting an entire press conference to Natal/Wave will solve the problem.



As for Natal, I guess I was just trying to be even handed with that. Didn't want to take my personal feelings in. However I agree, I don't think (and I could be wrong) that it's sales will be stellar past the first couple of million that buy it at launch. I almost hate to say this, but more and more we're seeing that a lot of 360 owners aren't buying anything but FPS, 3rd person shooters, and online games. By that I mean games like Alan Wake have had horrible sales, and even Mass Effect 2 sold less than the first. Meanwhile this year while PS3 exclusives like GOW 3, and Heavy Rain were selling over 1 million, PS3 owners were also buying more multiplat games than the 360 as well (which is a complete turn around considering 360 used to kill the PS3 on multiplat sales). Even Bayonetta which had a vastly superior 360 version sold better on the PS3.

The reason I posted all of that above tho is that it seems anymore that 360 owners aren't buying much out of it's core games. I really don't believe Natal falls into that category. If 360 owners almost refuse to buy casual games, or even great looking 5 year in development games like Alan Wake...I'm not sure they'll buy a $150 device that will probably be casual game heavy. Especially if word of mouth isn't great, or launch titles are crap or scarce. I'm also not a fan of no physical input device. As we saw in the earlier video, it takes 'waggle' to a whole new level. Pulling a trigger to shoot, or jumping and walking forward could be a problem.

I don't think either will net the casual demographic. Nor do I expect anything more than 10 million total sales for both for their entire lifetime (PS3 has 35 million, and the 360 40 million user base currently). Tho I think the difference is that Microsoft (IMO) is betting the barn so to speak on Natal. To them this is a mid console life kicker which will carry them a few years until the launch of their next console. If it fails, I could see Microsoft bumping the release date for it's next system. The PS3 on the other hand already had a huge sales increase after it's price drop, and can still see another price drop and sales increase. To Sony I think the Move will just end up as another add-on, and not something that HAS to work for the PS3 going forward.

[Solidus]

I agree that Sony did receive more than it's fair share of hate early this gen. Going on the net and admitting you had a PS3 early on almost always was met with a, "Why would you buy a $600 paper weight?", and the "PS3 has no games" argument continued for a long while. I also agree with MS flying by the seat of it's pants. It rushed to the market and had the RROD problems, and threw money at it to fix it, yet even now it still carries that image with cutomers. Now sales for it are sagging quickly, and MS isn't addressing it but instead waiting for E3 hoping devoting an entire press conference to Natal/Wave will solve the problem.



As for Natal, I guess I was just trying to be even handed with that. Didn't want to take my personal feelings in. However I agree, I don't think (and I could be wrong) that it's sales will be stellar past the first couple of million that buy it at launch. I almost hate to say this, but more and more we're seeing that a lot of 360 owners aren't buying anything but FPS, 3rd person shooters, and online games. By that I mean games like Alan Wake have had horrible sales, and even Mass Effect 2 sold less than the first. Meanwhile this year while PS3 exclusives like GOW 3, and Heavy Rain were selling over 1 million, PS3 owners were also buying more multiplat games than the 360 as well (which is a complete turn around considering 360 used to kill the PS3 on multiplat sales). Even Bayonetta which had a vastly superior 360 version sold better on the PS3.

The reason I posted all of that above tho is that it seems anymore that 360 owners aren't buying much out of it's core games. I really don't believe Natal falls into that category. If 360 owners almost refuse to buy casual games, or even great looking 5 year in development games like Alan Wake...I'm not sure they'll buy a $150 device that will probably be casual game heavy. Especially if word of mouth isn't great, or launch titles are crap or scarce. I'm also not a fan of no physical input device. As we saw in the earlier video, it takes 'waggle' to a whole new level. Pulling a trigger to shoot, or jumping and walking forward could be a problem.

I don't think either will net the casual demographic. Nor do I expect anything more than 10 million total sales for both for their entire lifetime (PS3 has 35 million, and the 360 40 million user base currently). Tho I think the difference is that Microsoft (IMO) is betting the barn so to speak on Natal. To them this is a mid console life kicker which will carry them a few years until the launch of their next console. If it fails, I could see Microsoft bumping the release date for it's next system. The PS3 on the other hand already had a huge sales increase after it's price drop, and can still see another price drop and sales increase. To Sony I think the Move will just end up as another add-on, and not something that HAS to work for the PS3 going forward.

A wonderful wonderful post. I have owned almost every major console since the NES days, (excluding some Sega, and Atari) yet I will not lie I do care for Sony more than most of them. But all of them have value. The thing is that has confused me as well is how 360 owners now for the majority only buy FPS/Action games. Which to me after a while get old. Especially the way they are making some of them today. But I do find it odd that most 360 gamers (not all) are buying just FPS games. Which is one reason I could never just own a 360 I need variety, and the other two consoles have more of that I believe.

I really have no idea how Natal will do. I'm sure at first it will sell well, because of MS hype and the idea of it. I will not lie they have great advertising. Which was one of the failings of the PS3 at launch. (Best Ad ever is still the "PS9" ad for the PS2. I remember seeing that 10 years ago and it still gives me chills. But anywho, I'm sure at first it will sell well, but I think the majority of the 360 audience won't really utilize it if they do get it. I could see it dropping off in sales pretty quickly.

MS will have a good show I'm sure at E3, but I am iffy about Natal (Move as well).

Natal is a wild card, but I have a feeling long term it won't be that big of a deal. I mean the PSEye and EyeToy never sold that well, and never found a big niche. So I kinda think the same will happen here. And the rumored costs are quite high as well. But I will sit back and wait for it.

But for MS I will be more focused on GoW 3 and Halo Reach then Natal.

[Soapy]

New video featuring the production model of Natal/Wave. It also shows the rafting game, River Rush, desrcibed before.

Jm0KKa6wACQ

So much funny avatar material there.LOL.

What...what is this? ...I don't even...I just...there are no words...

[Tron Bonne]

Man, that video can't be for 100% real, it has to be the participants just really getting into it or something. Everything just looks far too exaggerated to me.

[Soapy]

That lady reminds me of Elaine Benes dancing.

Also, it's interesting to note that the kid in the red shirt has no idea what to do.

[KALEL114]

It is real. It's a writer for Parade magazine.

http://www.parade.com/news/2010/06/06-how-i-became-an-avatar.html

[Tron Bonne]

I know it's real in the sense that they're playing it and stuff, but it seems far too exaggerated the way the adults are playing, like they are trying way too hard or something. Maybe the games just take a lot of effort to play or something.

[KALEL114]

Yeah, there was a MS representative there, maybe they asked them to go a bit crazy for the camera. I'm pretty sure they took it a bit too far if that was the case. Lol. Not sure this is the kind of press MS was looking far. I mean the guy even said he smacked his kid on accident while playing.

[hippie_hunter]

I agree that Sony did receive more than it's fair share of hate early this gen. Going on the net and admitting you had a PS3 early on almost always was met with a, "Why would you buy a $600 paper weight?", and the "PS3 has no games" argument continued for a long while. I also agree with MS flying by the seat of it's pants. It rushed to the market and had the RROD problems, and threw money at it to fix it, yet even now it still carries that image with cutomers. Now sales for it are sagging quickly, and MS isn't addressing it but instead waiting for E3 hoping devoting an entire press conference to Natal/Wave will solve the problem.



As for Natal, I guess I was just trying to be even handed with that. Didn't want to take my personal feelings in. However I agree, I don't think (and I could be wrong) that it's sales will be stellar past the first couple of million that buy it at launch. I almost hate to say this, but more and more we're seeing that a lot of 360 owners aren't buying anything but FPS, 3rd person shooters, and online games. By that I mean games like Alan Wake have had horrible sales, and even Mass Effect 2 sold less than the first. Meanwhile this year while PS3 exclusives like GOW 3, and Heavy Rain were selling over 1 million, PS3 owners were also buying more multiplat games than the 360 as well (which is a complete turn around considering 360 used to kill the PS3 on multiplat sales). Even Bayonetta which had a vastly superior 360 version sold better on the PS3.

The reason I posted all of that above tho is that it seems anymore that 360 owners aren't buying much out of it's core games. I really don't believe Natal falls into that category. If 360 owners almost refuse to buy casual games, or even great looking 5 year in development games like Alan Wake...I'm not sure they'll buy a $150 device that will probably be casual game heavy. Especially if word of mouth isn't great, or launch titles are crap or scarce. I'm also not a fan of no physical input device. As we saw in the earlier video, it takes 'waggle' to a whole new level. Pulling a trigger to shoot, or jumping and walking forward could be a problem.

I don't think either will net the casual demographic. Nor do I expect anything more than 10 million total sales for both for their entire lifetime (PS3 has 35 million, and the 360 40 million user base currently). Tho I think the difference is that Microsoft (IMO) is betting the barn so to speak on Natal. To them this is a mid console life kicker which will carry them a few years until the launch of their next console. If it fails, I could see Microsoft bumping the release date for it's next system. The PS3 on the other hand already had a huge sales increase after it's price drop, and can still see another price drop and sales increase. To Sony I think the Move will just end up as another add-on, and not something that HAS to work for the PS3 going forward.

I think the biggest problem with Natal is that it so far appears to be incredibly limited. Asides from sports and party games, I really don't see how it's going to be used in regular games like the PlayStation Move will.

[KALEL114]

First clear pic of River Rush.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/KALEL114/tumblr_l3yha9KCtg1qa5c1eo1_1280.jpg

[Crook]

Hah, that actually looks pretty cool!

[Benstamania]

Our Microsoft rep was in the other day apparently...she didn't really comment on the 149 price when we asked....

[KALEL114]

We should know more in about 20 minutes I guess. I think it would be a mistake pricing it that high.

[Benstamania]

So do I...wait...what's n 20 minutes? Am I missing something?

[KALEL114]

Doh! I got my times mixed up. I was refering to the Natal Event tonight. Pricing and a release date are being announced.

[Benstamania]

Oh that's TONIGHT?! Wow, I thought that was Monday.

[Dark_Lord]

Yup. 7pm pst. We'll be getting news, but we won't see anything until Tuesday when they'll actually air the event. The main MS conference is tomorrow though.

[KALEL114]

CVG is the online site I know that is going to report about it live.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=250741

[Dark_Lord]

Check THIS (http://www.console-tribe.com/news/6-6-281598/mass-effect-3-dragon-age-ii-dead-or-alive-5-saranno-annunciati-all-e3.html) out. Look at the right of the page. There's a flash add that looks like a 360 re-design. What do you think? If it's indeed real. I think it looks nice.

EDIT: Here it is
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9180/360n.jpg

Comes with a 250GB HDD, built-in WiFi and it's compatible with Kinect. Project Natal's real name?

[Donut]

Yup. 7pm pst. We'll be getting news, but we won't see anything until Tuesday when they'll actually air the event. The main MS conference is tomorrow though.

The Natal Event is not going to be live on TV ?

[Dark_Lord]

No. Not live. They'll air it on Tuesday.

[Donut]

No. Not live. They'll air it on Tuesday.

Well that is stupid since they have to sell it to us the customers & not the press :doh: They are probably doing it in case one of their 360s die it is not shown on TV

[Flash Facts]

I don't think I like the rumored Kinect name at all.

[KALEL114]

They are probably doing it in case one of their 360s die it is not shown on TV

Avatar foot deja vu. lol.

[KALEL114]

I don't think I like the rumored Kinect name at all.

I heard Oculus thrown around also. Am I the only one that thinks Natal is not that bad of a name?

[Benstamania]

Wonder if we'll be getting dashboard updates tonight?

[KALEL114]

If they do have an update, it will be announced and released tomorrow I'd wager.

[Dark_Lord]

I heard Oculus thrown around also. Am I the only one that thinks Natal is not that bad of a name?

I think we've gotten used to Natal by now. I wouldn't mind if they didn't change it, although they've already said they will.

[Flash Facts]

I think to Spanish speaking people that name might be a little weird.

[Rocker22]

I'm just excited that the details will finally be revealed.

[Flash Facts]

Looks like it is Kinect (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/gaming/2010-06-14-vidgame14_ST_N.htm)

[Dark_Lord]

When I read the article I immediately fouced on the Star Wars game :oldrazz:

[Flash Facts]

When I read the article I immediately fouced on the Star Wars game :oldrazz:

My thought process was aww kinect followed by Ooo Star Wars!

[Dark_Lord]

My thought process was aww kinect followed by Ooo Star Wars!

Heh. Same here. Although it says that Star Wars characters will be featured in a Kinect game made by MS in conjuction with LucasArts. Maybe it's not specificaly a Star Wars game. I don't know.

[Havok83]

I heard Oculus thrown around also. Am I the only one that thinks Natal is not that bad of a name?
No I prefer it. I say they should just keep it. At least it has a name that its recognizable by, unlike Sony which for the longest time was simply the motion controllers or worse the ice cream wands.

[Flash Facts]

Heh. Same here. Although it says that Star Wars characters will be featured in a Kinect game made by MS in conjuction with LucasArts. Maybe it's not specificaly a Star Wars game. I don't know.
Very true, but when I see star wars and kinect (I gotta get used to that) I can't help but think of lightsaber battles and force powers which could be very cool if done right.

[Dark_Lord]

A Force powers games would be interesting. Using your hands for Force push/pull, lightning, grip, etc...

It all depends on if Kinect works good. I read that even in the more recent previews we've seen online (those with the new version of ricochet), they were still using old Natal models. I'm really interested to see how it works now. Obviously they'll also have more time to fix things until it's release.

[Dark_Lord]

VG247 has just been informed by an inside source close to Natal/Kinect that there will be two version of the camera controller when it hits the market. The most expensive one will run you $189.00.If you recall, there was a story a while back that the camera in Natal had be dumbed down a bit in order to make it cheaper. Well, we’ve been told by our source that Microsoft replaced that bit with tilt, that is controlled by a motor on the base – which has be known for a bit now.


VG247.com (http://www.vg247.com/2010/06/14/rumor-kinect-to-have-two-versions-most-expensive-cost-189-00/)

[Tron Bonne]

$189? I guess that must be a bundle of the camera and a game(s)...that can't be the price for the just the camera.

[Dark_Lord]

Obviously, because if it is, I don't think it'll sell much.

[Flash Facts]

Wow that sounds like a horrible business move. Not only is it expensive but now there are two models to confuse the "casual gamer" with.

[KALEL114]

The only way $189 would work, is if it is bundled with the new 360.

[Benstamania]

The more I hear about this the more it sounds like a joke...seriously, Kinect Sports? REALLY Microsoft? "Lets just do what the Wii did.."

*sigh*

[Soapy]

I like Kotaku's (http://kotaku.com/5562418/project-natal-officially-renamed-kinect-more-games-revealed) take on it.

So, goodbye, Project Natal. You were a strange name, but we grew to love you in a way we could never do with something as stupid as "Kinect".

:hehe:

[Fading]

Looks like it is Kinect (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/gaming/2010-06-14-vidgame14_ST_N.htm)

VG247.com (http://www.vg247.com/2010/06/14/rumor-kinect-to-have-two-versions-most-expensive-cost-189-00/)

I know...I've been harsh on Natal so far...However most of my gripes were just genuine clashes of what I want to get out of gaming, and Natal not giving that. These two bits of news tho...I know they really, really want Natal to succeed considering they went all out with a circus tonight with the Natal preview, but if I didn't know better I'd think they wanted it to fail if these turn out to be true.

First off is the name. I guess it's just nit picky, but Kinect sounds like some new Lego brand extension. Atleast Wave was somewhat clever, you wave at it. Kinect? It...connects to your 360? I don't think casual consumers are going to get this unless someone explains it to them. As much as I dislike the name Move (I'd much rather have had Arc), atleast it's name represents the product.


The second bit could be the hardest to swallow. One, $189, that's even more than I expected, I had $150 as my absolute high end. Two, and worst of all, not all Kinects are created equal!!! It's one thing for consoles where you can cheapen the price by taking a few non essential features off. How do you do that with a peripheral? Seriously? It's like selling a Sega CD that doesn't play all Sega CD games. Does this mean that those who buy the $100 Natal won't be able to play all the games, or atleast to their intended usage, that those who buy the $189 version will? Does the cheaper version lack one of the two cameras and not offer depth? Is it just cheaper made and more prone to dying on you?

Anyway I just don't get it. Even tho I have no intentions of getting Natal, I hope that rumors not true. Otherwise there are going to be quite a few kids getting one and being dissapointed when they hear that because they got the slightly cheaper version that they'll be getting a lesser experience.

[Soapy]

First off is the name. I guess it's just nit picky, but Kinect sounds like some new Lego brand extension.


Well, you're not lying about that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K'Nex

[Crook]

The more I hear about this the more it sounds like a joke...seriously, Kinect Sports? REALLY Microsoft? "Lets just do what the Wii did.."

*sigh*
I so wish I had saved all the rants and mockery MS fans made about the Wii. :funny:

[Fading]

Ok, I see why Vader said, "Let's just do what the Wii did...". Motion controls aside, I was looking at a few of it's launch games.

Kinectimals (shudders...whoever thought of that name needs to be fired lol), an animal collecting and training game (Pokemon anyone?).

Kinect sports....Wii sports.


As for the others

Joyride, sounds like it'll be the best use of the controls in the launch games. My only problem is if possible fatigue if you plan on a major gaming session. As in holding my arms out completely straight for 4+ hours with my feet partially off the ground so I can wiggle them in camera range to press the gas sounds like a bit of a pain for a relaxing passtime.


Kinect Adventures, guess that's the raft game.

Dance central...meh, not for me, but I can see how ppl would get into it, so won't knock it.

[Flash Facts]

"Cloning" is part of every industry. An innovative product is released, it is cloned, improved, becomes a category onto itself ( in the case of movies and games a genre), and then the cycle starts all over again.

[Dark_Lord]

From what I'm reading on twitter, they just showed the Star Wars game. I got these 2 quotes (sorry, didn't save the links) "Star Wars game being shown off. Guy swinging hands like a lightsaber. Looks cool, but maybe on rails?" and "Seriously, that looked awesome. Finished with lightsaber dual v Vader."

[Spider-Vader]

Kinekt is the name? Really. They should of kept Natal.

[Flash Facts]

From what I'm reading on twitter, they just showed the Star Wars game. I got these 2 quotes (sorry, didn't save the links) "Star Wars game being shown off. Guy swinging hands like a lightsaber. Looks cool, but maybe on rails?" and "Seriously, that looked awesome. Finished with lightsaber dual v Vader."
:awesome:


Leaked pictures. Link (http://www.allgamesbeta.info/2010/06/pics-natal-experience-event.html)

Kinda Creepy looking.

[Dark_Lord]

The Star Wars game was apparently just a mini-game (I thought as much), but they said you can also use Force powers.

Anyway...They didn't mention a release date or pice for it. They said that more details will be revealed at the conference.

[KALEL114]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/06/kinetic-e3-product003-rm-eng.jpg

[hippie_hunter]

So far, I'm finding Kinect to be completely underwhelming.

[Flash Facts]

Giant Bomb makes the show sound like an acid trip. Might be worth watching just for the laughs.

[Soapy]

Haha, I'm watching them too. :up:

[Fading]

I'll be watching it as well for some laughs. However 2 problems, 1. 2 days from when it happened to when it'll air, and exclusively on MTV at that, so plenty of chances to edit out bloopers (so no BAM! :( ). 2. In an attempt to steal viewers from Sony's show the Kinect conference is supposed to be airing on MTV at the same time as Sony's live conference. It's a no brainer as to which of those two I'd rather watch. So will wait for the net to get the MTV show and watch it on Youtube or something at a later date.

[Soapy]

I believe it's airing later on Nick at Nite as well.

[Fading]

Giant Bomb makes the show sound like an acid trip. Might be worth watching just for the laughs.

Yeah, seems like a lot of sights are saying it was just a really weird show. IGN was pretty down on it -

http://games.ign.com/articles/109/1096907p1.html


Naz: 10pm Sunday
Well, E3 2010 has officially kicked off with Microsoft's debut of Kinect (formerly Project Natal) at a glitzy event at the Galen Center. To say I was disappointed with Kinect would be putting it mildly. After waiting at the Galen Center for a couple of hours, other than the name, Kinect, nothing was revealed except a handful of pre-recorded demos where actors clearly pretended to control the on-screen characters (avatars) with their own body movement. At several points the avatars would move before the actors did, ruining the illusion of a real live demo of Kinect. This body-synch debacle makes Milli Vanilli's legendary lip-synch outrage look tame by comparison.

The Kinetic 'body-synchs' that were shown off included rafting down a river, Olympics, yoga, a mildly cool Star Wars demo where the avatar slashed enemies and reflected laser bolts, a tiger pet patting simulation and a handful of other disappointing snippets. The Kinetic camera was also shown navigating on-screen menus with cool Minority Report-style waves of your hand, as well as video conferencing. I'll be able to report a lot more definitively tomorrow once I've actually tested out Kinetic but for the moment the body-synch balls-up has left a bad taste in my mouth. Laughably, a huge animatronic elephant with in-built projector screens was the highlight of the crazy spectacle.

A very disappointing first act, Microsoft. Let's hope tomorrow things can be turned around.

Patch: 11:48pm Sunday
Look, it has to be said: that was one of the single biggest cluster****s I've ever seen at a games event, hands down. With the eyes of the world on Microsoft, it decides that the best course of action, for whatever profound reason, is notto truly unveil much of anything. Instead, the audience is assaulted with a strange and shambolic mess of pretentious garbage, muddy messaging and glimpses of very uninspiring games. Good lord. Tomorrow morning's press conference is going to have to pull some impressive rabbits out of the hat to rectify this bizarre misfire. Truly, tonight will live on in our minds right up there with Giant Enemy Crab and Wii Music air-drumming. Facepalm

Then someone on VG Chartz said this was posted from someone named Chris who was there for Gamesradar -

Chris from Gamesrader posted this on /v/

>show off men backflipping in tights and plastic elephants
>still no sign of games
>forced to wear ponchos and drink almond water
>still no sign of games
>games are shown
>check to see if i accidentally walked into Nintendo's presentation
>nothing but casual **** for Natal


Now I'm seeing why it wasn't live. A lot of sites are saying that the body movements on stage didn't even closely sync up to the games being played. Which means no live demos shown, despite trying to make them look life. Then everyone was made to wear white ponchos and was given bottles of water that tasted a bit weird and had Xbox 360 written on them. One place also said there were dancers in rooms hanging from the ceiling or something.

Either way if I was in Microsoft's shoes I'd want time to edit all of that too lol. Use different camera shots to cover up non live demos. Hide some or cut out some of the weirder things. Probably not focus on the fact that the gaming media was forced to dress like they were front row for a Gallagher watermellon smashing comedy show. With a few edits what the gaming media is calling a confusing cluster**** will probably come out looking pretty smooth.

I think the only thing I'm seeing positive across the board is the Star Wars game, and even that is being said that it looks on rails like you guys mentioned. I'll still end up watching it at some point tho lol. It does bother me a bit tho that Microsoft again avoided live demos. I know Ricochet and the paint game were live, but Milo, and everything else was pre recorded and pupeteered last year. Then this E3 it's actors reacting to pre recorded videos. Nintendo had the crazy drummer dude and Miyamoto playing the Mario song, and Sony was demoing things their tech guys made over night. A year later and Microsoft still isn't truely showing what Kinetic can do despite spending millions upon millions to devote an entire night to it.

[Flash Facts]

Kinect Lifestyle promotional video
JOKCjFyDTq8

[Nathan]

Here (http://kotaku.com/5562639/get-a-look-at-kinects-star-wars-game)'s a short clip of the Star Wars game.

Seriously, aren't these guys ashamed? The character on screen obviously moved before the person "playing" it did.

[Dark_Lord]

Yeah, that was definitely not a live demo. I really hope they show something live soon. To see if and how good it really works.

[Donut]

It seems like last nights event made people go WTF then WOW. I guess some of the random name change has something to do with it but even so. Not a good start for Microsoft

[Flash Facts]

The graphics of that Star Wars game looked much better than I thought. I guess I expected Xbox Avatar style characters.


Am I the only person that expected the games to be pre-taped?

This was supposed to be a taped show to provide spectacle and entertainment. I didn't expect Microsoft to risk the possibility of something not working or a wire being unplugged by mistake.

I always figured the real demonstrations would be today. Especially considering lots of journalist have commented that they would have hands-on or should I say bodies on time with all the games today.

[Donut]

Come on 3:00 lets get the show on the road

[ÆON]

http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/06/14/that-just-happened-a-survivor-of-the-natalkinect-event-tells-his-tale/

Good summary of what happened at the Kinect event from one persons' perspective.

Very detailed and wordy, but pretty funny to read about what happened. Sounds like Microsoft has a lot to make up for at their presentation.

[KALEL114]

So far, I'm finding Kinect to be completely underwhelming.

That sums up my feelings on it.

[StrainedEyes]

Kinect Lifestyle promotional video
JOKCjFyDTq8

That looks horrible.

[hippie_hunter]

Reading the reactions to the event is making me think that this has turned into Microsoft's version "RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDGGE RAAAAAAAAAAACER!/$599 US Dollars" and "Wii Music/Wii Vitality Sensor."

It's odd considering how Microsoft is usually much better at making presentations.

[ProjectPat2280]

Star Wars lightsaber game. Im sold. Just bought Kinect.

[Soapy]

Nah, Microsoft's "Riiiiidge Raaaaacer!" was "WABAM! There it is!"

I think Kinect might actually raise the bar for stupid **** at E3.

[Donut]

Spike it is then it seems

[KALEL114]

dp..

[KALEL114]

Star Wars lightsaber game. Im sold. Just bought Kinect.

I'd wait until we see a live demo first Pat.

[hippie_hunter]

Star Wars lightsaber game. Im sold. Just bought Kinect.

It wasn't even in real time.

Plus it can be done with the PlayStation Move. Probably better.

[Nathan]

I was thinking the same thing. And Sony actually had a working real-time demo ready, that showed sword combat.

[ProjectPat2280]

It wasn't even in real time.

Plus it can be done with the PlayStation Move. Probably better.

No it will be better with Kinect. Move sucks. Kinect is awesome. MS is better than Sony, Sony is nothing but the devil.

[hippie_hunter]

LOL :woot:

[KALEL114]

Lol. I had a 2006 flashback.

[Paroxysm]

yeah this blows....

[hippie_hunter]

What a crappy showing of Kinect. The interactivity features with the 360 were cool, but the games looked flat out horrible.

[amazingfantasy15]

Star Wars lightsaber game. Im sold. Just bought Kinect.

I'm really wondering if you actually get to move in the world though, it looked like you were "on rails" in the demo. It could've shown the very large achilles heel to controller-less game, you don't move freely within the game world.

[KALEL114]

Gamestop has Kinecthttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_bing.gif (http://forums.superherohype.com/#) for $149.99.

http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/Prod...oduct_id=78103 (http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=78103)

[Solidus]

It's pretty amazing how many are disappointed with Natal. And I'm not surprised. MS jumps into things before they think about them.

Funny enough even IGN (usually leans more towards 360) thought Move was more impressive. More accurate as well.

I will skip Natal/Kinect.

[KALEL114]

For 150 bucks, it is not worth it to me.

[Boom]

My brother and I watched the demonstration on Spike. We were in disbelief at how bad it looked.

[Solidus]

What made me most upset was the "bribe" they gave everyone after everyone rolled their eyes at Natal. Which was a free Slim 360. There was a huge editorial about this on N4G, which really shows how MS does their business...."buy the love".

The Halo Reach should be good though. I'm stoked for that. Not natal.

[Isildur´s Heir]

What i´m more sad about is the fact Microsoft doesn´t know how to use their own technology.
I can easily think of a lot of way to use it in games way better than the wii clone crap we saw.

[hippie_hunter]

What i´m more sad about is the fact Microsoft doesn´t know how to use their own technology.
I can easily think of a lot of way to use it in games way better than the wii clone crap we saw.
Exactly, what a wasted opportunity.

[Addendum]

I so wish I had saved all the rants and mockery MS fans made about the Wii. :funny:

The thing is, I don't think Natal or whatever the hell it's called will do that well with the "MS fans". I'm not a fanboy of MS, but I still enjoy my 360. I have seen nothing that warrants spending $189 (before tax) to buy an accessory so I can play shovelware.

[StrainedEyes]

I can totally see how kids could like stuff like Kinectimals or whatever, but as of now I have no plans to buy this thing. I'm not paying 150 bucks to navigate menus with my hands.

I really wish they would have put their focus elsewhere these past 2 years. This was an extremely lackluster conference.

[Crook]

It wasn't even in real time.
That's an understatement. All they did was play a pre-recorded video on the screen, and have a prop actor try (and failing miserably) to mimic the movements as if he were actually playing.

That was beyond an embarrassment of a "demo". :doh:

People need it to get it through their heads that motion-tech as is will not give us an enjoyable action game. Weapons require feedback, and we do not have that if all we're moving on is air. Even with the Wii or PS Move this isn't possible. When they've integrated some sort of weighted gyroscopes in these controllers, then we can start salivating.

[Boom]

That's an understatement. All they did was play a pre-recorded video on the screen, and have a prop actor try (and failing miserably) to mimic the movements as if he were actually playing.

That was beyond an embarrassment of a "demo". :doh:
Hahaha my brother and I noticed that during the demo of the dance game. The character started dancing before the guy on stage. Hilarious.

[Asteroid-Man]

I'll say about the Kinect and Move what I said about the Wii - this is just a stupid gimmick for people who suck at video games.

[Fading]

It's pretty amazing how many are disappointed with Natal. And I'm not surprised. MS jumps into things before they think about them.

Funny enough even IGN (usually leans more towards 360) thought Move was more impressive. More accurate as well.

I will skip Natal/Kinect.

I'm trumping it up to internet built buzz. A lot of ppl watching last years E3 saw Natal and assumed it really was the future, not just of gaming, but everything. That it was the true leap to a Minority Report world (I mean, no offense, but even the title of this thread talks about Natals impact on the WORLD). So many were assuming it would lead to the death of Nintendo with Microsoft walking a perfect line inbetween it's current hardcore crowd by developing Natal games like Fable, and stealing Nintendo's casual crowd. Even when doubt started to set in a lot of ppl kept repeating, wait for the games, Microsoft will melt our faces with it's E3 Natal launch titles.

Now reality is sinking in. It's looking to be too expensive like every other 360 peripheral. The games they're showing are casual to the extreme, extremely Wii-rip off, and despite saying emphasizing that they show the games rather than talk about them...the biggest Kinect buzz game (Star Wars) still looked either on rails or pre-recorded. Then top if off with a name that confuses, and is leading to so horrible game names (Kinectimals).

I think so much of the internet was focused on saying Move is a failure because Move was showing off so much, and keeping their initial hype for Kinect because they were showing nothing. Now that Natal is finally showing everything the die hard fans are seeing it's not the second coming, and everyone else that was interested in it but not sold, and looking forward to info so it could sell it to them are not as impressed as they expected it to be.

I bet if none of us had been on the net this last year, Kinect wouldn't seem like such a train wreck. It'll still sell, not the 10 million this year alone that Microsoft expects tho.

[DorkyFresh]

oh noz!

http://vgtribune.com/kinect-games-are-fully-priced-at-60-available-for-pre-order/

do they really think those games are worth $60??? if this is Kinect's effects (hey that rhymed) on the world, then i say "do not want!"

[Havok83]

those game look like crap. Typical Wii shovelware

[Timstuff]

I think what's ultimately going to kill the Kinect, at least from a hardcore's POV, is going to be this bermuda triangle of conceptual problems:

1) Kinect has serious latency / lag issues. This is somewhat unavoidable, because of the nature of the depth-mapping camera it uses. There is tons of data that the Kinect has to sift through and interpret, and that is going to take a while if using just Xbox hardware. This this is designed around Israeli military tech, but it has to be processed with an Xbox 360. Which leads us to...

2) System resource consumption. I've heard some people say that Kinect must use roughly 1/3 of the Xbox 360's resources just to interpret the images from the infrared camera. That's 1 of the 360's 3 cores, which means only 2 are left for designing games. Hardcore games need a lot more power than that, which is why all of Natal's games are so graphically simple compared to the regular ones (however, Microsoft probably doesn't think the target audience cares about graphics anyway). It's so it's quite likely that you will never see a hardcore game on 360 that has optional Kinect integration the way a lot of PS3 games will have with the Move.

3) Gameplay without a controller is conceptually limited. Sony did many experiments with the exact same technology MS is using with Natal when they were developing the successor to the EyeToy, and they decided the technology was too expensive and did not offer an experience that was significantly different from the Eyetoy. You are still waggling your arms around like a fool in liu of pressing buttons, and there still is not enough input options for the player to have sufficient control over the game, which makes integration into hardcore games nearly impossible. Even the supposedly "hardcore" Star Wars game looks like it will be on rails with very simplified, streamlined game design because there's no practical way for the player to tell the character which direction to run in. This is the exact same crud as the EyeToy, and all MS would need to do is ask Sony to know that that's a well that's been dry for a long time.

[Cth]

2) System resource consumption. I've heard some people say that Kinect must use roughly 1/3 of the Xbox 360's resources just to interpret the images from the infrared camera. That's 1 of the 360's 3 cores, which means only 2 are left for designing games. Hardcore games need a lot more power than that, which is why all of Natal's games are so graphically simple compared to the regular ones (however, Microsoft probably doesn't think the target audience cares about graphics anyway). It's so it's quite likely that you will never see a hardcore game on 360 that has optional Kinect integration the way a lot of PS3 games will have with the Move.


To be fair, that 1/3 report was shot down.


3) Gameplay without a controller is conceptually limited. Sony did many experiments with the exact same technology MS is using with Natal when they were developing the successor to the EyeToy, and they decided the technology was too expensive and did not offer an experience that was significantly different from the Eyetoy. You are still waggling your arms around like a fool in liu of pressing buttons, and there still is not enough input options for the player to have sufficient control over the game, which makes integration into hardcore games nearly impossible. Even the supposedly "hardcore" Star Wars game looks like it will be on rails with very simplified, streamlined game design because there's no practical way for the player to tell the character which direction to run in. This is the exact same crud as the EyeToy, and all MS would need to do is ask Sony to know that that's a well that's been dry for a long time.

I think they'd be better off utilizing it for navigation, system sign in, and things of that nature. Not a compelte stand alone controller solution.

I disagree it's the same thing as EyeToy at this stage though. Besides, they already had the 360 Vision Camera, so if it was just as simple as a EyeToy port they'd have gone with it.

And yes, I know Sony experimented with a lot of that stuff back in the day. If the Eye Toy could do all of that stuff back then, it makes no sense for them to have held it back. I could see redirecting resources into other development, but if it's there and works, why not release it to help EyeToy sales even if miniscule?

Besides, the infrared stuff alone is a big enough step to keep an eye out on how it COULD be used.

Supplemental to the controller? Sure. Replacing? No way.

[Flash Facts]

2) System resource consumption. I've heard some people say that Kinect must use roughly 1/3 of the Xbox 360's resources just to interpret the images from the infrared camera. That's 1 of the 360's 3 cores, which means only 2 are left for designing games. Hardcore games need a lot more power than that, which is why all of Natal's games are so graphically simple compared to the regular ones (however, Microsoft probably doesn't think the target audience cares about graphics anyway). It's so it's quite likely that you will never see a hardcore game on 360 that has optional Kinect integration the way a lot of PS3 games will have with the Move.

Umm Forza?

[Timstuff]

And yes, I know Sony experimented with a lot of that stuff back in the day. If the Eye Toy could do all of that stuff back then, it makes no sense for them to have held it back. I could see redirecting resources into other development, but if it's there and works, why not release it to help EyeToy sales even if miniscule?

The Eyetoy, on paper is "primitive" compared to the Kinect. The technology behind Kinect is a lot more impressive than Eyetoy, no-one will deny that. The problem that Sony ran into though, is that you are still ultimately using a camera to track limbs and use their movements as inputs for the game. The way Natal accomplishes this is much more sophisticated, but conceptually it's the same thing, only done better. Instead of pushing buttons, you move your body, and the camera tracks you. The key difference is that Kinect has depth perception, but I do not think that's going to make up for the fact that the player needs more input options than just moving their limbs to make a hardcore gaming experience.

Umm Forza?

I'll believe it when I see someone playing it. Until then, it's just a video like the Star Wars game (which was pre-rendered, BTW).

[Flash Facts]

I'll believe it when I see someone playing it. Until then, it's just a video like the Star Wars game (which was pre-rendered, BTW). Journalist got to play it after the conference. :dry:

[DorkyFresh]

http://www.gamerzines.com/xbox-360/news/kinect-only-works-standing.html

if they don't fix this then all this talk about operating the interface ala Minority Report goes out the door. yes, you'd might be able to play games ala Minority Report but no one wants to have to stand up in order to select the next option on the screen...

[KALEL114]

Found this interesting.

Kinect (http://xbox360.ign.com/objects/143/14357198.html) has impressed us at E3. The technology behind Microsoft's motion controller is pretty damn cool. But we do have some real concerns about Kinect. Microsoft has a lot of late nights ahead if it hopes to make Kinect a smooth experience for gamers and non-gamers alike.

Here are the five things that worry us most about Kinect. We think it's going to be pretty cool, but much of Kinect's success depends on how well Microsoft can resolve these issues.

Voice Recognition
In more than a few demos, Kinect didn't always understand what people were saying. And these were folks without accents and in rooms without a lot of echo or noise. Kinect has a setting for audio that measures the amount of ambient noise in your room and filters it out, but until we can field test it, it's impossible to know how well this works. Accents are a bigger concern. We've been told the "hope" is that accents are not an issue. Maybe Microsoft can enlist Ubisoft for help, because EndWar used voice commands and did an excellent job accounting for accents.

Catching Your Movements
Some Kinect games are spot-on. Child of Eden has a good 1:1 tie to your movements and the actions on screen. Dance Central does a great job of recognizing your awesome dance moves. But then there are games like Kinect Adventures, which has delays between your movements and your avatars action. There are several more months development time and Microsoft will need to make this perfect. And it does need to be perfect. When I try to kick a ball flying towards my junk, I want my avatar to instantly kick forward, rather than get hit where it hurts.

Standing Room Only
According to the developers who gave us demos, Kinect only works when you stand. This includes menu navigation. All the cool options to grab a slider and advance through frames of a movie you are watching only work when you are on your feet. Kinect, we've been told, has problems handling your skeletal frame while sitting. The voice commands still work, but every game we've seen and even simple menu navigation have to be done with you out of your seat. That's not exactly how I want to watch my movies. If the focus for Kinect is creating games like Dance Central that naturally would require you to be off your couch, that's great. But I have to say, no one thinks "I am driving a car!" while standing up in their living room.

Microsoft tells us that you can sit while playing Kinect. It just varies based on the experience. This remains a concern until we ourselves can test out Kinect from our rear.

Games for Gamers
There are some good Kinect games beings shown at E3, but with the exception of Ubisoft's Child of Eden and (somewhat) the Star Wars game, they are all geared towards folks who have never picked up an Xbox 360 controller. This makes sense, since Microsoft's main goal with Kinect is to attract a new audience. However, Microsoft needs the core audience to tell the casual gamer what is cool. And if Microsoft doesn't get that long-time Xbox 360 gamer behind Kinect, it will fail. We need some games that show what Kinect will do for someone who loves games like Halo or Castlevania or Gears of War. I'm not saying it has to be a first-person shooter where you are the gun, but we need to see more gamers that have depth to them.

Kinect Slapped Onto a Non-Kinect Game
The final concern really applies to what happens six months after Kinect is released. If successful, publishers will want to cash in. The easiest way? Add some cheap Kinect feature to a game just to get a "Compatible with Kinect" sticker on the box. One of the big benefits of Kinect is its potential to enhance the games we already enjoy playing. Having voice recognition in an NBA game so you can play like a real point guard, shouting and motioning your other players into position would be awesome. Tacking on "realistic" free-throw shooting would be dumb.



Kinect has a lot of potential, but it also has a number of pitfalls that must be avoided. Hopefully Microsoft is up to the task. We want Kinect to succeed. Because, seriously, we have to review this stuff and we'd rather spend our days with things that are great than things that are bad.



http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1099085p1.html

[Fading]

I hope they fix that if it does indeed turn out to be a legitimate problem. I've already made it known I'm not a fan of Kinect, but that doesn't mean I want those who buy it to have a bad experience on it. I've read a lot of ppl saying they care more for the non-gaming applications for Kinect such as the menu navigation, having to stand up would completely nulify the convenience of Kinect. Personally, I'd much rather just go ahead and use a controller or remote while laying in bed to navigate through the menu's in a movie than have to get out of bed (or off the couch), stand up and wave my hand, and then set or lay back down.

On top of that, if this turns out to be true, it also hurts the controller aspect. Ppl have been talking in defence of Kinect that you can still use a controller with it. However this would mean that if your playing a hardcore title with Kinect like Fable, and let's say you control the character with the controller, but have extra things you can do with Kinect, you can't set down to play the game. You'd have to be standing up with a controller in your hand to get all of the Kinect functions.

It may sound lazy lol, but I play games and watch movies to relax. Standing up is fine for a dance party of course, but if even the more time intensive hardcore titles or menu navigation mean you have to stand up, I can't see anyone being too happy with the product outside casual gamers who will use it solely for dancing and fitness titles.


Then again, it might not be an issue at all and only be a problem with a small handful of titles. So the above wasn't a condemnation of Kinect for that as much as a 'if' it happens it's not going to be a good thing statement.

[ProjectPat2280]

Microsoft has confirmed that you do NOT need to be standing to control Kinect.


There has been some confusion about this, but Microsoft assured us that you can sit down while using Kinect. The company wants you to be able to relax and enjoy using your Xbox 360, so it says you definitely won't have to stand while watching a movie.


http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1099467p1.html

[Fading]

Microsoft has confirmed that you do NOT need to be standing to control Kinect.

Good to hear. Apparently there was a twitter whatever (I don't use twitter lol) saying from someone at MS saying you can but that it varies from game to game.

I was looking around at this story on other sites after reading it hear to see more on it. Apparently a few others sites at E3 noticed this as well, and Edge magazine was supposed to have said that they heard a few dev's had concerns about this as well but that MS was working on it.

So hopefully the MS corrections are right. However this is on enough sites now and is spreading like wildfire (I mean I just googled Kinect have to stand and there are pages and pages on this story). So even if not true, it's turning out to be some bad press for MS.

I do want to say tho that I don't entirely doubt the ppl who went to E3 and played Kinect who are saying you can't. I just have a feeling that it's game specific. That some games will require a full body outline to work properly. I also have no doubts that some 3rd parties are going to develop it poorly where it will have trouble reading your body right. However MS themselves are saying you can sit down, so there probably are games as well that will let you. Then again I don't see Kinect being great for games that you would want to set down for (FPS's and such). So in the end I think the only important part of this is whether or not you can sit down and to navigate the 360 dashboard menu's, and I'm sure that they'll make it so you can.

[ProjectPat2280]

Good to hear. Apparently there was a twitter whatever (I don't use twitter lol) saying from someone at MS saying you can but that it varies from game to game.

I was looking around at this story on other sites after reading it hear to see more on it. Apparently a few others sites at E3 noticed this as well, and Edge magazine was supposed to have said that they heard a few dev's had concerns about this as well but that MS was working on it.

So hopefully the MS corrections are right. However this is on enough sites now and is spreading like wildfire (I mean I just googled Kinect have to stand and there are pages and pages on this story). So even if not true, it's turning out to be some bad press for MS.

I do want to say tho that I don't entirely doubt the ppl who went to E3 and played Kinect who are saying you can't. I just have a feeling that it's game specific. That some games will require a full body outline to work properly. I also have no doubts that some 3rd parties are going to develop it poorly where it will have trouble reading your body right. However MS themselves are saying you can sit down, so there probably are games as well that will let you. Then again I don't see Kinect being great for games that you would want to set down for (FPS's and such). So in the end I think the only important part of this is whether or not you can sit down and to navigate the 360 dashboard menu's, and I'm sure that they'll make it so you can.

Yea, thats what i assume as well. Some games will require your full body to work, but things like navigating the dashboard wont require you to be standing.

[KALEL114]

Microsoft has confirmed that you do NOT need to be standing to control Kinect.

Sweet. :up:

First Gamestop and now Amazon has Kinect for $149.99. Hopefully MS officialy announces the price sson.
http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Xbox-360/dp/B002BSA298/ref=sr_tr_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1276787409&sr=8-1

[DorkyFresh]

the only thing that article says is that Microsoft assured them that they could sit while using Kinect. forgive me if i don't take Microsoft's word so easily. i'll believe it when i see it. unfortunately, none of the demonstrations at E3 showed anyone sitting down while using Kinect.

[KALEL114]

I guess we will have to wait until sites get to review it. There are still a lot of questions that need to be addressed. I am not getting one, but I have a couple of friends interested in it if the price is right (ie not $150).

Edit: Kotaku has another article about the sitting question.
http://kotaku.com/5565777/xbox-kinect-does-not-play-well-with-couch-potatoes

[ProjectPat2280]

the only thing that article says is that Microsoft assured them that they could sit while using Kinect. forgive me if i don't take Microsoft's word so easily. i'll believe it when i see it. unfortunately, none of the demonstrations at E3 showed anyone sitting down while using Kinect.


The sitting issue only applies to certain games at this point. Controlling the dashboard wont have that issue. The sports game, fitness games, will require your whole body to be mapped, but are you really going to play a bowling game or tennis game sitting down? You don't with the Wii, you wouldn't with the Move, so complaining about it here is complaints just for complaints sake. The issue here is using Kinect when playing any kind of driving game or other like game, thats where things can become annoying. Having to stand really does not help to capture the feel of anyone driving.

[DorkyFresh]

The sitting issue only applies to certain games at this point. Controlling the dashboard wont have that issue.
yes...that's what they tell us, but none of us have actually seen it in practice. i understand the need to market your product as a way of getting OFF the couch, but at the same time i don't understand why they can't let people TRY using the Kinect while sitting down. if MS were truly confident in their product then this wouldn't be an issue.

The sitting issue only applies to certain games at this point. Controlling the dashboard wont have that issue. The sports game, fitness games, will require your whole body to be mapped, but are you really going to play a bowling game or tennis game sitting down?
maybe not tennis, but i often play High Velocity Bowling sitting down. :P anyway, i'm not worried about the games so much as the interfaces. i understand that these games were meant to get you off your @$$ but navigating menus weren't.

You don't with the Wii, you wouldn't with the Move, so complaining about it here is complaints just for complaints sake.
well it's a good thing no one's complaining then ;) i was simply pointing out a flaw that could potential be a deal breaker. many people have expressed that they don't care for Kinect for the games so much as they want to be able to navigate their interfaces ala Minority Report except not everyone's going to want to stand up to navigate their menus.

The issue here is using Kinect when playing any kind of driving game or other like game, thats where things can become annoying. Having to stand really does not help to capture the feel of anyone driving.
this i totally agree with. for MS's sake, let's hope they find a solution for this conundrum. it's potentially a big problem, but it sounds like they're still working on it...

"Sitting is something we're still calibrating for."
http://kotaku.com/5565777/xbox-kinect-does-not-play-well-with-couch-potatoes

[ProjectPat2280]

No one is going to have to stand to watch a movie or control your sports. Im sure of that. MS has stated you wouldn't. This wouldn't release with an issue like that. The only concern about Kinect is its price. I dont see it releasing at 150, but if it does, thats the game changer. You cant market a casual experience at 150 bux a pop.

[DorkyFresh]

No one is going to have to stand to watch a movie or control your sports. Im sure of that.
i realize that, but again i stress that, as of this moment, no one has seen anyone navigate Natal's menus while sitting down.

MS has stated you wouldn't.
do you believe everything MS says? i sure as hell don't...but then again i always take what big corporations say with a grain of salt regardless of their name.

This wouldn't release with an issue like that.
MS is prone to releasing faulty products before they're ready. the first 360 model, Zune, Vista...hell, they discovered a fault in the 360S within 48 hours of it's announcement (scratches discs when moved). i realize that you're not SUPPOSED to move your hardware when it's reading discs, but lower end DVD-drives don't have this problem and neither does the Wii or PS3.

granted not EVERYTHING MS releases has faults but like all companies, MS is not infallible to flaws.

This wouldn't release with an issue like that. The only concern about Kinect is its price. I dont see it releasing at 150, but if it does, thats the game changer. You cant market a casual experience at 150 bux a pop.
again, i'll agree with you on this point. $150 is quite steep for Kinect, as is $130 for a FULL PS Move set.

[ProjectPat2280]

MS intends users to be able to sit down and control their dashboard using Kinect, their marketing is reflecting this. They know what they are doing. Thats not to say Kinect wont have its problems, it will, but having one of the main selling points of Kinect not work like they are advertising, would end Kinects run before it started(well that and a 150 dollar price tag). I promise you MS wont make that mistake. Then again, maybe Kinect will fail regardless, so it wont matter rather this feature works or not.

[KALEL114]

It all boils down to price really on both consoles. That includes game prices as well. The only reason I am getting a Move controller, is because I already have an Eye. $49.99 is not that bad for me, but if I didn't have the Eye already, I probably would pass on it. MS would price themselves out of the market they are targeting if the Kinect was $150 IMO.

[Cth]

It all boils down to price really on both consoles. That includes game prices as well. The only reason I am getting a Move controller, is because I already have an Eye. $49.99 is not that bad for me, but if I didn't have the Eye already, I probably would pass on it. MS would price themselves out of the market they are targeting if the Kinect was $150 IMO.

To be fair, you're likely going to need the navigator which brings the price up to $80. And if you're spending $80 a lot of people will go for the $100 model which includes the camera and a game (opting to sell the camera online, etc)

$150 is on the very high end -- if they had something concrete to sell people on, they'd have more of a chance.. I'm guessing $125 is going to be the max though.

It's going to be an uphill fight though if they can't get ahead of these rumors (the sit down thing, the not-detecting-black-people thing, etc) Even if proven false, the rumors circulate like crazy and keep getting parroted.

[KALEL114]

The DualShock 3 can be used instead of the Navigator. That's the route I will be going with. The casual consumer will probably not know this though. I am not intersted in Sports Champions, so $49.99 is the deal for me. :up:

[Tron Bonne]

To be fair, you're likely going to need the navigator which brings the price up to $80. And if you're spending $80 a lot of people will go for the $100 model which includes the camera and a game (opting to sell the camera online, etc)

You actually don't need it, you can just use the dualshock controller in its place. It's just an alternative controller designed specifically for the wand.