"Only a Prime can defeat me" The Fallen Thread!

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I wish we would have gotten a little more time with him in the movie, but I really enjoyed The Fallen as a character in ROTF, Tony Todd did an amazing job of making his voice menacing and authorative, and you could really believe that Megatron would serve this guy.

His powers in the final battle were also awesome, loved it when he used his staff to raise everything in the air, thought when he tried it on Optimus, Prime just busted through the rocks and kicked his ass!

I do wish he would have done a bit better against Prime in the final fight, but we have to remember, at one point he was beating on Prime, even though Prime was powered up to hell.

Overall I thought he was a great villain with an interesting back story, and he was more than sufficient to raise the stake's from the first movie.

[Drz]

I know this is nitpicking but wouldn't had been just badass if he was on fire? =P Anyhow i liked the design, it truly felt Apocalyptic tbh. =)

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Yeah, I would have preferred if he would have been permanently on fire like in the comics, but he did seem to be filled with some lava-like substance which gave the impression his innards were on fire, which was a cool effect and sort of made up for it.

[protocida]

I loved the movie, but the Fallen was under-used.

[The Caped Knight]

I'm confused in IDW Revenge of the Fallen comic prequel & The novel The Fallen is trapped in a fiery trans-dimension sarcophagus aboard The Decepticons Flag ship The Nemesis . Yet in the movie The Fallen seems to have escaped his prison and is surviving on Energon life-support tubes . How'd The Fallen escape his prison ?

[El_Citrus]

The Fallen was a good villain with plenty of back story, but he didn't do anything until the final fight, and was beaten in around ten minutes or so, which I found a bit annoying with all this hype built up around him. I understand the Decepticons do his dirty work, but he just didn't feel ominously menacing to me.

[Mr. Earle]

The Fallen was a good villain with plenty of back story, but he didn't do anything until the final fight, and was beaten in around ten minutes or so, which I found a bit annoying with all this hype built up around him. I understand the Decepticons do his dirty work, but he just didn't feel ominously menacing to me.Thank you! I ve been discussing this for ages with Guard in the "brutal" thread.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I'm confused in IDW Revenge of the Fallen comic prequel & The novel The Fallen is trapped in a fiery trans-dimension sarcophagus aboard The Decepticons Flag ship The Nemesis . Yet in the movie The Fallen seems to have escaped his prison and is surviving on Energon life-support tubes . How'd The Fallen escape his prison ?

The Fallen states in Defiance that once the Harvestor is located he can be freed from his prison, so once they knew were it was he was able to escape the Artefact but still wasnt that powerful. Even in ROTF I still dont think he was at full strength throughout the movie.

[protocida]

He was going to be in the dimensional prison in the movie, and only come to Earth in the third act, when Megatron uncovers the Sun Harvester. The novalization and the comic book adaptation, both based on an early version of the Script, feature this.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

He was going to be in the dimensional prison in the movie, and only come to Earth in the third act, when Megatron uncovers the Sun Harvester. The novalization and the comic book adaptation, both based on an early version of the Script, feature this.

To be honest, they probably should have kept it like this. But I just figured he didnt come to Earth before because Prime was there.

[Nathan]

No matter who the person is, I could never believe Megatron willingly following anyone. We're talking about Megatron here, the guy who didn't even want to obey a planet sized world eater. He only did it because he would've died otherwise, but he was still looking for a way to get free.

And the Fallen in the Movie was a wuss. He chilled on the spaceship and got his ass kicked in less than a minute.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

No matter who the person is, I could never believe Megatron willingly following anyone. We're talking about Megatron here, the guy who didn't even want to obey a planet sized world eater. He only did it because he would've died otherwise, but he was still looking for a way to get free.

With The Fallen being the first Decepticon, this would go some way to explaining why Megatron obeyed him, but anyway, I'm sure Megatron would have betrayed him given the chance, but he never really got the oppurtunity to.

And the Fallen in the Movie was a wuss. He chilled on the spaceship and got his ass kicked in less than a minute.

He was up against a pissed off/combined Prime and IMO wasnt at full strength. He was obviously seriously deprived of energon in the movie, hence the need for the sun harvester.

[Nathan]

He was still juiced enough to Teleport and move tanks and giant debris around with his telekinesis.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

He was still juiced enough to Teleport and move tanks and giant debris around with his telekinesis.

Yeah, but when he tried the telekinesis on Prime, Prime just punched through the rocks, so obviously that power was wasted on Prime. The Fallen did get some pretty lethal hits on Prime also.

[protocida]

I watchet the movie again, and got a feeling that Prime's presence on Earth weakned the Fallen or something. While Prime is there, he's sitting in the Nemesis, absorving Energon from hatchlings, but, in the moment Primes dies, he raises and detaches the Energon tubes of his body, like he was at full power.

[The Guard]

He's scared of Prime. It's pretty much that simple.

I don't know what you're all talking about in terms of "All the hype". All the hype I remember was being told The Fallen would be in the movie.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I watchet the movie again, and got a feeling that Prime's presence on Earth weakned the Fallen or something. While Prime is there, he's sitting in the Nemesis, absorving Energon from hatchlings, but, in the moment Primes dies, he raises and detaches the Energon tubes of his body, like he was at full power.

I dont think Prime weakens him, but the presence of a Prime obviously strikes fear into him, as only a Prime can kill him.

He's scared of Prime. It's pretty much that simple.

:up: Prime can kill him so of course he is scared of him, once Prime died, The Fallen came to earth, because the threat of death was eliminated.

[protocida]

To be fair, there was a big hype surrounding him.

[Grievous]

I watchet the movie again, and got a feeling that Prime's presence on Earth weakned the Fallen or something. While Prime is there, he's sitting in the Nemesis, absorving Energon from hatchlings, but, in the moment Primes dies, he raises and detaches the Energon tubes of his body, like he was at full power.
Now that the Fallen is dead more hatchlings can hatch so I believe we will be seeing alot more deceptions in the next movie. Anyone agree?

[protocida]

It's possible.

[Mr. Earle]

To be honest, they probably should have kept it like this. But I just figured he didnt come to Earth before because Prime was there.Prime came to earth one or two years ago. Yeah, but when he tried the telekinesis on Prime, Prime just punched through the rocks, so obviously that power was wasted on Prime. The Fallen did get some pretty lethal hits on Prime also.He used it for the planes and prime. But when he fights prime one on one, it didnt occur to him to teleport away and throw half the pyramid or a couple of tanks on Prime.

[The Guard]

Whether Prime was on Earth during the first events of TRANSFORMERS is irrelevant.

The autobots were at war with the Decepticons, period. Prime was around, period, and The Fallen didn't want to risk facing him. That's why, as ROTF actually tells us, he created the Decepticons to do his work for him. Had The Fallen gone to Earth and starting stirring up some kind of trouble just because Prime wasn't there at the time, Prime and the autobots would probably have gone there, just as they did when the cube landed on Earth and the Decepticons went after it.

[Nathan]

Man, you really do defend anything. There wasn't anything special about Optimus, he was just good at kicking ass. We get the line that only a Prime is capable of defeating him, but they never bother to explain why. We are simply not supposed to question it. The Fallen had all the advantages and could have easily obliterate Prime before the fusion with Jetfire.

[The Guard]

Because there's just nothing special about kicking ass on that level.

[Mr. Earle]

Because there's just nothing special about kicking ass on that level.It seemed to me that Megatron and Bumblebee can kick as much ass. And they arent Primes.
But if like Marvin (in the brutal thread) said the Fallen is inherently only vulnerable to a prime's punches because its magic or whatever, then it makes some sense. Its ridiculous, but it at least makes sense.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Whether Prime was on Earth during the first events of TRANSFORMERS is irrelevant.

The autobots were at war with the Decepticons, period. Prime was around, period, and The Fallen didn't want to risk facing him. That's why, as ROTF actually tells us, he created the Decepticons to do his work for him. Had The Fallen gone to Earth and starting stirring up some kind of trouble just because Prime wasn't there at the time, Prime and the autobots would probably have gone there, just as they did when the cube landed on Earth and the Decepticons went after it.


Exactly, why risk death by facing him when he can get The Decepticons to do it for him.

Man, you really do defend anything. There wasn't anything special about Optimus, he was just good at kicking ass. We get the line that only a Prime is capable of defeating him, but they never bother to explain why. We are simply not supposed to question it. The Fallen had all the advantages and could have easily obliterate Prime before the fusion with Jetfire.

Of course there is something special about Optimus, he was a Prime, the last Prime. I dont think it needed explaining why only a Prime could defeat, as to me it was pretty obvious, The Fallen is a fallen prime, and was once a Prime, so it makes it obvious to me that only a Prime could defeat him.

[Rock Sexton]

Man, you really do defend anything. There wasn't anything special about Optimus, he was just good at kicking ass. We get the line that only a Prime is capable of defeating him, but they never bother to explain why. We are simply not supposed to question it. The Fallen had all the advantages and could have easily obliterate Prime before the fusion with Jetfire.

Bingo.

We're just supposed to take the storyline's convenient and lazy explanation.

[Nathan]

What's obvious? He's got the title Prime, sure, but he doesn't seem to have anything special that sets him apart from other Autobots. He can't Teleport, levitate objects or has any other abilities. He's just a capable combatant. And if it wouldn't have been for the power boost, I can't see how the Fallen could've possibly lost to him.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

What's obvious? He's got the title Prime, sure, but he doesn't seem to have anything special that sets him apart from other Autobots. He can't Teleport, levitate objects or has any other abilities. He's just a capable combatant. And if it wouldn't have been for the power boost, I can't see how the Fallen could've possibly lost to him.

There is something obviously about the Prime's that is special, for example, in the movie also, only a Prime could use The Matrix's powers.

[Nathan]

Yeah, you need to be really special to put the Matrix into the machine. Sam could've done that...

There seems to be something special about the past Primes alright, but Optimus isn't anything like the past Primes. Optimus is no different than his fellow Autobots.

[Chris B]

I thought he was pretty cool despite getting taken out too easily. Tony Todd also did an awesome job voicing him.

[portland2002]

Horrible plotline ... bad title ... very predictable ... atrocious dialogue ... cliched ... master and apprentice ... Vader and Sidious ... CINO looked like Casablanca by comparison.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yeah, you need to be really special to put the Matrix into the machine. Sam could've done that...

There seems to be something special about the past Primes alright, but Optimus isn't anything like the past Primes. Optimus is no different than his fellow Autobots.

But Sam couldnt have activated the power/energy within the Matrix, only a Prime can, and if Optimus is no different than the other autobots, why was Jetfire so awe-struck in his presence? I didnt see Jetfire saying "Wow, a living Ironhide" did you?

[Mr. Earle]

But Sam couldnt have activated the power/energy within the Matrix, only a Prime can, and if Optimus is no different than the other autobots, why was Jetfire so awe-struck in his presence? I didnt see Jetfire saying "Wow, a living Ironhide" did you?I lol'ed!!! :hehe:

[Nathan]

But Sam couldnt have activated the power/energy within the Matrix, only a Prime can, and if Optimus is no different than the other autobots, why was Jetfire so awe-struck in his presence? I didnt see Jetfire saying "Wow, a living Ironhide" did you?

That's the goddamn problem. Apparently Primes are supposed to be special. The past Primes undoubtedly were, as demonstrated by the Fallen. Now what's special about Optimus? None bothers to explain and he never demonstrates other abilities a Prime would have. All we have is a lazy script that puts Optimus on a pedestal and we're just supposed to go with it.

[Rock Sexton]

But Sam couldnt have activated the power/energy within the Matrix, only a Prime can, and if Optimus is no different than the other autobots, why was Jetfire so awe-struck in his presence? I didnt see Jetfire saying "Wow, a living Ironhide" did you?

...........but see it's a cheap, quick response to sure up a plot point.

Instead of dedicating so much screen time to obnoxious jokes and annoying twins, Bay could've expanded on what make OP a prime and what allows him to be the only Autobot to defeat The Fallen instead of the whole "Here you go - because we said so" ......

[Jager X]

The whole plot surrounding the Primes was so damn retarded. If there was any logical thinking approached to this story then we not even have a sequal and that is a problem. Ok, so the only thing that can kill a Prime is another Prime. Now when the Fallen went to war against the other six Primes, they should have easily ripped him limb from limb. Instead of killing the most powerful transformer that will stop at nothing to destroy every planet in the universe, they commit suicide. WHAT. THE. *****?! If the original Primes loved humanity so much then they should not have allowed so much needless suffering in the name of the Fallen, especially when it only takes 15 seconds out of their centuries-long life span to kill him.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I lol'ed!!! :hehe:

Ha ha :up:

That's the goddamn problem. Apparently Primes are supposed to be special. The past Primes undoubtedly were, as demonstrated by the Fallen. Now what's special about Optimus? None bothers to explain and he never demonstrates other abilities a Prime would have. All we have is a lazy script that puts Optimus on a pedestal and we're just supposed to go with it.

He is the last descendant of The Prime's, who were the leaders of the original Transformer race, if that doesnt make him special I dont know what does. As it stated in the movie also, only a Prime can wield the power of The Matrix Of Leadership.

The whole plot surrounding the Primes was so damn retarded. If there was any logical thinking approached to this story then we not even have a sequal and that is a problem. Ok, so the only thing that can kill a Prime is another Prime. Now when the Fallen went to war against the other six Primes, they should have easily ripped him limb from limb. Instead of killing the most powerful transformer that will stop at nothing to destroy every planet in the universe, they commit suicide. WHAT. THE. *****?! If the original Primes loved humanity so much then they should not have allowed so much needless suffering in the name of the Fallen, especially when it only takes 15 seconds out of their centuries-long life span to kill him.

Jetfire states in the movie that The Fallen was stronger than the other Prime's, thats why they couldnt kill him, they could only wound him and get the Matrix away from him as quickly as possible and hide it.

[SciFi Warlock]

The way I saw it was the Fallen was an interesting villian. I viewed him as lazy and not really wanting to do anything and had the Decepticons do his work for him. He was just lying around the decepticon lair spouting orders and saying that he can't do anything until the last Prime is offline.

Once Optimus Prime went offline at Megatron's hand he finally got up from his "Bed" but it seemed more like "Man, now I gotta get up and do something, I just lost my last excuse". :lmao:

I thought is was subtle and done well. Even when the Fallen was on Earth he did not do anything until he had no choice or he would look bad to his underlings.

[Nathan]

He is the last descendant of The Prime's, who were the leaders of the original Transformer race, if that doesnt make him special I dont know what does. As it stated in the movie also, only a Prime can wield the power of The Matrix Of Leadership.

Dude, are you just messing with me or what? What abilities does Optimus demonstrate that supposedly make him the only one being able to defeat the Fallen? The only reason Optimus could take on the Fallen, was because Jetfire gave him his powers. Before that, the Fallen had every advantage thanks to his abilities.

Now if Optimus would've actually used the Matrix to defeat the Fallen, we probably wouldn't have this argument. Because only a Prime can use the Matrix, and thats why the Fallen can only be defeated by a Prime.

[The Guard]

True, they never do point out what's so special about being a Prime, but I like to think Prime's actions, like in the comics and show, sort of speak for themselves in various areas.

I also can't help but notice, there's a lot of talk about how Prime only beat The Fallen with Jetfire's parts, but after defeating Megatron, Prime pretty much beats The Fallen without using the parts he got from Jetfire other than sort of using it to "super block". He basically just kicks the crap out of him with hand to hand combat. If anything, the parts would hinder that asskicking. I don't think it's implied he was given super strength beyond his usual or anyting like that, just flight, a lot more airspeed, and bigger weapons.

[dodgers2213]

Of course there is something special about Optimus, he was a Prime, the last Prime. I dont think it needed explaining why only a Prime could defeat, as to me it was pretty obvious, The Fallen is a fallen prime, and was once a Prime, so it makes it obvious to me that only a Prime could defeat him.

ummmm, WHAT? :huh:
You didn't answer the question...WHY can only a prime beat the fallen?...the Fallen is a fallen prime so only a prime can beat a fallen prime because....why? Just because the script said so?

[The Guard]

I kind of took it at first as a psychological weakness The Fallen has after being a Prime, being cast out, and believing he was still on that level. That it would take a Prime to defeat him.

[dodgers2213]

I kind of took it at first as a psychological weakness The Fallen has after being a Prime, being cast out, and believing he was still on that level. That it would take a Prime to defeat him.

still makes no sense

[Anubis Raptor]

I love The Fallen. Tony Todd was perfect for him!!! His voice was sooo amazing!!

[Mr. Earle]

Jetfire states in the movie that The Fallen was stronger than the other Prime's, thats why they couldnt kill him, they could only wound him and get the Matrix away from him as quickly as possible and hide it.So the rest of the original primes couldnt kill him but one of their descendants, whose only powers are fists and kicks can? Dayum.... thats ****** storytelling right here!

[Nathan]

And only wound him? They impaled him with two spears. You'd think they had the freaking sense to dogpile him right then and there.

[Mr. Earle]

And only wound him? They impaled him with two spears. You'd think they had the freaking sense to dogpile him right then and there.Primes... stupidest robots on the universe... The Fallen was sick of their stupidity.
:hehe:

[The Guard]

still makes no sense

What makes no sense?

It's a complex he could have. That only a Prime could defeat him.

[Rock Sexton]

What makes no sense?

It's a complex he could have. That only a Prime could defeat him.

We're attempting to psychoanalyze Fallen's "complexes" now?

[Jager X]

We're attempting to psychoanalyze Fallen's "complexes" now?

LMAO! I know, right? So to justify plain ol' Optimus destroying the Fallen in 10 seconds, the same mofo who can lift people and tanks with his mind, is because he needs therapy? What an ass excuse.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Dude, are you just messing with me or what? What abilities does Optimus demonstrate that supposedly make him the only one being able to defeat the Fallen? The only reason Optimus could take on the Fallen, was because Jetfire gave him his powers. Before that, the Fallen had every advantage thanks to his abilities.

Now if Optimus would've actually used the Matrix to defeat the Fallen, we probably wouldn't have this argument. Because only a Prime can use the Matrix, and thats why the Fallen can only be defeated by a Prime.

I'm not messing with you at all, there is obviously something special about Optimus, this was true in the cartoon's as well, people looked upon him with awe, and very rarely was his leadership challenged (Grimlock being a sole exception), its the same in the movies, people regard Optimus with awe and respect, even humans. Its totally possible that is simply the 'good' that Prime's exude that is the downfall of The Fallen, who turned to dark ways.

True, they never do point out what's so special about being a Prime, but I like to think Prime's actions, like in the comics and show, sort of speak for themselves in various areas.

I also can't help but notice, there's a lot of talk about how Prime only beat The Fallen with Jetfire's parts, but after defeating Megatron, Prime pretty much beats The Fallen without using the parts he got from Jetfire other than sort of using it to "super block". He basically just kicks the crap out of him with hand to hand combat. If anything, the parts would hinder that asskicking. I don't think it's implied he was given super strength beyond his usual or anyting like that, just flight, a lot more airspeed, and bigger weapons.

Agreed, The Fallen does start to get hits at this point also, which showed Prime may have made a mistake doing this, but he won out with brute force in the end, as The Fallen's other powers were useless on Optimus.

So the rest of the original primes couldnt kill him but one of their descendants, whose only powers are fists and kicks can? Dayum.... thats ****** storytelling right here!

Not really, people are forgetting an important issue, The Fallen was a BROTHER to all of the other Prime's, its possibly they didnt have the heart to kill him were as really, he was nothing to Optimus, but some distant ancestor who was threatening Prime's new home.

Not to mention, i'm sure the original Prime's were disgusted at bringing war to our world and just wanted to get The Matrix away from The Fallen.

[The Guard]

We're attempting to psychoanalyze Fallen's "complexes" now

Who's "we"?

And it's not an excuse. Just something that occurred to me.

[Mr. Earle]

Not to mention, i'm sure the original Prime's were disgusted at bringing war to our world and just wanted to get The Matrix away from The Fallen.They saved our sun but let the fallen free to walk the earth squashing humans with his feet. You guys are defending plot holes the size of Texas...

[Nathan]

I'm not messing with you at all, there is obviously something special about Optimus, this was true in the cartoon's as well, people looked upon him with awe, and very rarely was his leadership challenged (Grimlock being a sole exception), its the same in the movies, people regard Optimus with awe and respect, even humans. Its totally possible that is simply the 'good' that Prime's exude that is the downfall of The Fallen, who turned to dark ways.

You still haven't answered the question. I never questioned his leadership, but why he can defeat the Fallen because he's a Prime. From what we've seen, he doesn't have the abilities of the past Primes. So anyone strong enough could defeat the Fallen.

[Mr. Earle]

You still haven't answered the question. I never questioned his leadership, but why he can defeat the Fallen because he's a Prime. From what we've seen, he doesn't have the abilities of the past Primes. So anyone strong enough could defeat the Fallen.Where were you when i was making those arguements in the "prime was too brutal" thread? I could have used your help! In any case, i stand by your side on this.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

They saved our sun but let the fallen free to walk the earth squashing humans with his feet. You guys are defending plot holes the size of Texas...

Well, he would have been injured from the battle, maybe badly, so he may have been in no position to do anything. Not to mention, with the harvester no longer any use to him, why would he stay on Earth?

The movie does have plot-holes, i'm not denying that, never will, i just dont consider this one of them.

You still haven't answered the question. I never questioned his leadership, but why he can defeat the Fallen because he's a Prime. From what we've seen, he doesn't have the abilities of the past Primes. So anyone strong enough could defeat the Fallen.

Read the last sentence of my last post again, I believe i did answer the question. The good that Prime's exude could easily be what makes The Fallen weak/vulnerable to them.

[protocida]

How about this: The Primes imprisioned the Fallen in an dimensional vortex, in which he was captive for years. During the two years Megatron stayed dead, the Fallen choose Starscream to continue his revenge, and Starscream managed to free him and place him in the Nemesis, draining Energon from hatchlings to restore his once legendary power.

[Mr. Earle]

Well, he would have been injured from the battle, maybe badly, so he may have been in no position to do anything. Not to mention, with the harvester no longer any use to him, why would he stay on Earth?

The movie does have plot-holes, i'm not denying that, never will, i just dont consider this one of them.Badly? The transformers dont seem to take long to recover from wounds. Thing is, that the Fallen still hanged around Earth looking for his machine. The whole sublot with the Primes is stupid. Bay could have killed them off in a better way. For example the Fallen could have used the Matrix to defeat them. That would have made more sense.
How about this: The Primes imprisioned the Fallen in an dimensional vortex, in which he was captive for years. During the two years Megatron stayed dead, the Fallen choose Starscream to continue his revenge, and Starscream managed to free him and place him in the Nemesis, draining Energon from hatchlings to restore his once legendary power.Thats way too much plot for one movie. The movie should only have explosions. Get the comics if you want to get the plot. :hehe:

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

How about this: The Primes imprisioned the Fallen in an dimensional vortex, in which he was captive for years. During the two years Megatron stayed dead, the Fallen choose Starscream to continue his revenge, and Starscream managed to free him and place him in the Nemesis, draining Energon from hatchlings to restore his once legendary power.

That is basically the story of the prequel comics.

Badly? The transformers dont seem to take long to recover from wounds. Thing is, that the Fallen still hanged around Earth looking for his machine.

We havent seen a badly injured TF though, only mortally wounded one's and minor wounded one's. And The Fallen didnt still hang around on Earth, he was on Saturn for half of the movie, I doubt he stayed on Earth all that time before then, as he would need Energon and without the machine Earth didnt have any.

The whole sublot with the Primes is stupid. Bay could have killed them off in a better way. For example the Fallen could have used the Matrix to defeat them. That would have made more sense.

It wouldnt make more sense as The Fallen would have the Matrix and no one to stop him using the machine so our Sun would have been dead long ago. The Fallen needed the matrix to work the machine this is why the Prime's hid it from him.

[protocida]

That is basically the story of the prequel comics.
Exactly. It explains why the Fallen didn't found the Harvester before and why he was weak in the Nemesis.

[Nathan]

Read the last sentence of my last post again, I believe i did answer the question. The good that Prime's exude could easily be what makes The Fallen weak/vulnerable to them.

So the answer is magic... alriiight.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

So the answer is magic... alriiight.

I didnt say magic, just the good they exude and represent, as the Prime's are good and honourable.

[Jager X]

I didnt say magic, just the good they exude and represent, as the Prime's are good and honourable.

Sorry, that excuse is just not good no matter how many times you say it. How is his "good" better than the "good" of the other autobots? The movie failed to come up with an adequate solution to the problem. If Optimus was shown throwin decepticons or ripping out their allspark with his mind then it would have been a different story. There is nothing special about Optimus in the TF movies. Yes, he can lead and fight but what else can he do that is not possible any of the other autobots. That was just an extremely weak fight that was built up by an even weaker story.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Sorry, that excuse is just not good no matter how many times you say it. How is his "good" better than the "good" of the other autobots? The movie failed to come up with an adequate solution to the problem. If Optimus was shown throwin decepticons or ripping out their allspark with his mind then it would have been a different story. There is nothing special about Optimus in the TF movies. Yes, he can lead and fight but what else can he do that is not possible any of the other autobots. That was just an extremely weak fight that was built up by an even weaker story.

Wel, if you dont like it thats your opinion and that is up to you. BTW, I still think Optimus isnt just the same as the other Autobots, I doubt any of the others could take 3 big Decepticons on at the same time and the other Autobots dont exude good and awe to every living creature they come accross. Even the humans were in awe of Optimus Prime, not just the Autobots, IMO its because he oozes awe, good and authority and only a Prime can do that the way he does. Its the same in the cartoon and comics also.

[Jager X]

Wel, if you dont like it thats your opinion and that is up to you. BTW, I still think Optimus isnt just the same as the other Autobots, I doubt any of the others could take 3 big Decepticons on at the same time and the other Autobots dont exude good and awe to every living creature they come accross. Even the humans were in awe of Optimus Prime, not just the Autobots, IMO its because he oozes awe, good and authority and only a Prime can do that the way he does. Its the same in the cartoon and comics also.

It is not an opinion, but a fact. That is the cheapest excuse I have heard in defense of Optimus. No offense to you or anything, but seriously.Humans and Autobots were in awe? He oozes good and authority? The mofo ain't Jesus. What's next? His 5 ton ass can walk on water? Just because he was given an oppurtunity to show his skills in the forest does not mean the other autobots could not have done the same. This movie failed to give the other Autobot a justifiable amount of time to be hardcore.

Saying that Optimus is more powerful than the others because he is good is akin to people saying "Because God said so!" when they can't give an adequate explaination for something.

[Mr. Earle]

Even if Prime is indeed special, Jesus or whatever (And Bay seemed to treat him this way... we asked for more Prime and he delivered. He practically masturbated with Prime the whole movie. "Prime got beaten in the first? Well fans, here he is beating Megatron AND two of his friends. And look here, Prime climbed on a huge decepticon who conviniently doesnt try to grab him and take him off his back. And you thought that wheel was a big deal...")i just dont have to like or accept it. It seemed to me that in the first movie Prime was a very good autobot, a very capable one, but nothing more. Because the movie didnt indicate it and because he was on par with Megatron. And then Bay wrecked it all up in his quest to "give the people what they want". And people are happy. "Prime was badass, he kicked ass. He killed tons of robots, he shot one in the face, ripped another one's face in two.... it was sooo cool... and he is a descendant of the primes, a member of the congress and Branjelina's adopted son.... omg!"

Well, Prime cant be Jesus. The franchise wasnt set on this premise. Maybe you can make him a bit special with the matrix as it was in G1, but again that didnt make him god, not even then. Prime is one of the best robot warriors, but there are bigger and more competent robots out there. You mean to tell me that Metroplex isnt more powerful? That Grimlock, Magnus, Megatron, Rodimus (he lacks experience though) arent pretty much at his level? The reason we like Prime has nothing to do with him kicking ass or owning everybody. Batman cant beat the villains Superman can and yet he is loved just as much.

So the bad guys got Devastator and the Fallen, who were both useless anyway, so the good guys became gods? "The autobots dont have a combiner, its ok, give them a magic gun and make them unstoppable"? Devastator should have been brought down by either an autobot army, a magic gizmo (ex. matrix), or another big robot. I suppose Bay brought Devy to raise the stakes but my guess is that he was too costly to star in his own big fight. I cannot explain in any other way why Devy cant kill two of the weakest autobots and then he gets killed by a deus ex machina gun out of ****ing nowhere. And yes i am pissed.

In the end, even though the stakes were raised, the autobots became killing machines and they also got unexplained magic guns out of ****ing nowhere. Gee and i was scared that Devastator would be a threat and was anxious to get into the theatre to see him in action... If only i knew that he was a big vacuum cleaner.

So what i am basically saying is that yes Mr Bay, we wanted more Prime, but not like that. When i am asking for more batman in a Justice League comic book, i dont mean having him beat down Brainiac for ****'s sake!

[Jager X]

Even if Prime is indeed special, Jesus or whatever (And Bay seemed to treat him this way... we asked for more Prime and he delivered. He practically masturbated with Prime the whole movie. "Prime got beaten in the first? Well fans, here he is beating Megatron AND two of his friends. And look here, Prime climbed on a huge decepticon who conviniently doesnt try to grab him and take him off his back. And you thought that wheel was a big deal...")i just dont have to like or accept it. It seemed to me that in the first movie Prime was a very good autobot, a very capable one, but nothing more. Because the movie didnt indicate it and because he was on par with Megatron. And then Bay wrecked it all up in his quest to "give the people what they want". And people are happy. "Prime was badass, he kicked ass. He killed tons of robots, he shot one in the face, ripped another one's face in two.... it was sooo cool... and he is a descendant of the primes, a member of the congress and Branjelina's adopted son.... omg!"

Well, Prime cant be Jesus. The franchise wasnt set on this premise. Maybe you can make him a bit special with the matrix as it was in G1, but again that didnt make him god, not even then. Prime is one of the best robot warriors, but there are bigger and more competent robots out there. You mean to tell me that Metroplex isnt more powerful? That Grimlock, Magnus, Megatron, Rodimus (he lacks experience though) arent pretty much at his level? The reason we like Prime has nothing to do with him kicking ass or owning everybody. Batman cant beat the villains Superman can and yet he is loved just as much.

So the bad guys got Devastator and the Fallen, who were both useless anyway, so the good guys became gods? "The autobots dont have a combiner, its ok, give them a magic gun and make them unstoppable"? Devastator should have been brought down by either an autobot army, a magic gizmo (ex. matrix), or another big robot. I suppose Bay brought Devy to raise the stakes but my guess is that he was too costly to star in his own big fight. I cannot explain in any other way why Devy cant kill two of the weakest autobots and then he gets killed by a deus ex machina gun out of ****ing nowhere. And yes i am pissed.

In the end, even though the stakes were raised, the autobots became killing machines and they also got unexplained magic guns out of ****ing nowhere. Gee and i was scared that Devastator would be a threat and was anxious to get into the theatre to see him in action... If only i knew that he was a big vacuum cleaner.

So what i am basically saying is that yes Mr Bay, we wanted more Prime, but not like that. When i am asking for more batman in a Justice League comic book, i dont mean having him beat down Brainiac for ****'s sake!

Indeed. All threats in this movie folded in awe of Optimus.

[Ahura Mazda]

In what world was Optimus on par with Megatron in the first? He was getting beaten up with Megatron barely even trying. I really did not feel optimus was overpowerred in this one; just that the Fallen was a bit dissappointing and that Devastator was underwhelming especially when it came to his defences.

[Nathan]

Maybe not on par, but Optimus did get some good hits in. Of course it was mostly shown in the background with Blackout slowly approaching. But most didn't notice. Heck, I barely even noticed. They only showed up-close shots when Optimus got man handled, but when Optimus did something it was barely shown.

[Grommers]

I think you guys are looking into this way to much, look not all the story has been written, thats why there will probably be spin-off books, a third movie etc...

Stop "being angry" at the plot holes, and start writing fan-fic on why they are the way they are.



My idea is that a Prime has a selflessness (like a green lantern has willpower) that gives him power, and to that extent I guess Greed? would be the other end which would also power them....hence the fallen being so strong.


Either way, I hope they do more on the fallen in the third one some how, and just have megs backstab him and be like GG NOOB

[Nathan]

Uhm... the Fallen is dead. Optimus ripped his Spark out and crushed it.

[Aesop Rocks]

The Fallen was pretty cool, I guess...

I mean, I only saw it for Starscream and Megatron...didn't really care too much for any other evil.

Oh and, shouldn't Megatron be good again?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Even if Prime is indeed special, Jesus or whatever (And Bay seemed to treat him this way... we asked for more Prime and he delivered. He practically masturbated with Prime the whole movie. "Prime got beaten in the first? Well fans, here he is beating Megatron AND two of his friends. And look here, Prime climbed on a huge decepticon who conviniently doesnt try to grab him and take him off his back. And you thought that wheel was a big deal...")i just dont have to like or accept it. It seemed to me that in the first movie Prime was a very good autobot, a very capable one, but nothing more. Because the movie didnt indicate it and because he was on par with Megatron. And then Bay wrecked it all up in his quest to "give the people what they want". And people are happy. "Prime was badass, he kicked ass. He killed tons of robots, he shot one in the face, ripped another one's face in two.... it was sooo cool... and he is a descendant of the primes, a member of the congress and Branjelina's adopted son.... omg!"

There are reasons Prime could have been defeated in the first, for one Megatron was frozen in the ice for 10000 years so probably had a lot more energy than Prime, who had expended a lot by then.

Well, Prime cant be Jesus. The franchise wasnt set on this premise. Maybe you can make him a bit special with the matrix as it was in G1, but again that didnt make him god, not even then. Prime is one of the best robot warriors, but there are bigger and more competent robots out there. You mean to tell me that Metroplex isnt more powerful? That Grimlock, Magnus, Megatron, Rodimus (he lacks experience though) arent pretty much at his level? The reason we like Prime has nothing to do with him kicking ass or owning everybody. Batman cant beat the villains Superman can and yet he is loved just as much.

Erm, Prime has always been compared to Jesus in the comics and cartoon, he is meant to be a Transformers Jesus basically, have you never seen the painting of the last supper with Prime in place of Jesus in it?

And Rodimus, Grimlock and Ultra Magnus were never on the same power level as Prime, especially Rodimus and Magnus.

So the bad guys got Devastator and the Fallen, who were both useless anyway, so the good guys became gods? "The autobots dont have a combiner, its ok, give them a magic gun and make them unstoppable"? Devastator should have been brought down by either an autobot army, a magic gizmo (ex. matrix), or another big robot. I suppose Bay brought Devy to raise the stakes but my guess is that he was too costly to star in his own big fight. I cannot explain in any other way why Devy cant kill two of the weakest autobots and then he gets killed by a deus ex machina gun out of ****ing nowhere. And yes i am pissed.

In the end, even though the stakes were raised, the autobots became killing machines and they also got unexplained magic guns out of ****ing nowhere. Gee and i was scared that Devastator would be a threat and was anxious to get into the theatre to see him in action... If only i knew that he was a big vacuum cleaner.

So what i am basically saying is that yes Mr Bay, we wanted more Prime, but not like that. When i am asking for more batman in a Justice League comic book, i dont mean having him beat down Brainiac for ****'s sake!

Were were these magic guns out of nowere the Autobots got? They had the same guns as the first movie as far as I could see. And it was about time we got to me more of Optimus's ruthless side also, which he does have, and has used in the past, I honestly dont get your problems with it. Also, I seem to remember in the forest fight Prime got pretty busted up, and The Fallen ripped half of his parts off him (or Jetfire's parts).

[Mr. Earle]

Maybe not on par, but Optimus did get some good hits in. Of course it was mostly shown in the background with Blackout slowly approaching. But most didn't notice. Heck, I barely even noticed. They only showed up-close shots when Optimus got man handled, but when Optimus did something it was barely shown.Exactly. So basically it was a pretty even fight until Megatron won. There are reasons Prime could have been defeated in the first, for one Megatron was frozen in the ice for 10000 years so probably had a lot more energy than Prime, who had expended a lot by then.Thats just assumptions. So why is Prime more powerful now then? Come on, you can freeze the one or the other, you can have them in whatever plot you like, but Megatron will always be equal to Prime, if not superior because of his super-cannon.
Erm, Prime has always been compared to Jesus in the comics and cartoon, he is meant to be a Transformers Jesus basically, have you never seen the painting of the last supper with Prime in place of Jesus in it?Yes i know, what i meant is that he cant manhandle everyone just because he is. Thats why bigger autobots exist. You cant expect us to buy that Demolishor couldnt just grab him from his back, or that any huge decepticon is a slow moving vacuum cleaner just so that Prime can prevail.
And Rodimus, Grimlock and Ultra Magnus were never on the same power level as Prime, especially Rodimus and Magnus.HotRod no, but Rodimus probably was. When he got the Matrix he grew bigger in size and the other autobots were able to tell the difference. One time that he lost it, the others knew it was HotRod. So i guess with the Matrix, he becomes Rodimus who is superior to the normal autobots. Also, he could defeat Galvatron who is supposed to be more powerful than Megatron after Unicron reprogrammed him.
Were were these magic guns out of nowere the Autobots got? They had the same guns as the first movie as far as I could see. No, i wasnt referring to that, i was referring to the gun out of ****ing nowhere that killed Dev. The decepticon we all had high expectations of did barely anything and then got killed by a magic gun that the humans remembered they had. Pffft.....
And it was about time we got to me more of Optimus's ruthless side also, which he does have, and has used in the past, I honestly dont get your problems with it. Also, I seem to remember in the forest fight Prime got pretty busted up, and The Fallen ripped half of his parts off him (or Jetfire's parts).
Prime shouldnt be ruthless. Period. That's what Megatron is for. Prime is Jesus, remember?
Then, in the forest fight, apart from the time that Megatron got 2 hits on him and blew him across the battlefield, he was invincible. The fight was a bit one sided but i can accept it, especially when Prime goes for broke in a desperate attempt to win. As for the Fallen, he only ripped one of his thrusters when he could have ripped his head. That Fallen was a joke...

So anyway, yes i think that Prime was overpowered in ROTF. Demolishor just let him climb on him. Megatron needed 2 more decepticons and backstabbing to beat Prime who was supposed to be his equal... The Fallen never stood a chance... Prime did everything in the movie. Everything.

[Mr. Earle]

The Guard accuses me of doing equations on the power levels of the TF. But just because Megatron was frozen or whatever, do we have to calculate how much power Prime lost living all this millenia? Come on, lets not get pedantic here.
Its a franchise with a good and a bad guy who are approximately on the same level. Maybe Megatron was frozen, maybe Prime did some burnouts on the streets, do we really need to get into all of this? Do we need to destroy the premise because the director chose a certain plot? That subplot of the frozen Megatron was great imho but if you re gonna go and be a Nolan...

In ROTF Prime and the autobots basically owned everyone. Megatron brought a huge army, a huge decepticon and a god and lost every one of them. The autobots lost an old man and their weakest robot (arcee). Big whoop.
Of course the decepticons are supposed to lose and obviously we dont care for their generic soldiers as much because none of them talks or does anything, but maybe the autobots should at least come badly wounded out of it.

My point is that the first movie was more balanced.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Exactly. So basically it was a pretty even fight until Megatron won. Thats just assumptions. So why is Prime more powerful now then? Come on, you can freeze the one or the other, you can have them in whatever plot you like, but Megatron will always be equal to Prime, if not superior because of his super-cannon.

Megatron has defeated Prime in the comics simply from having more energon, this is what happened in the first movie IMO. With Megatron frozen for thousands of years, he had all this energy stored up were ass Prime went though a lot of action in the first movie.

Yes i know, what i meant is that he cant manhandle everyone just because he is. Thats why bigger autobots exist. You cant expect us to buy that Demolishor couldnt just grab him from his back, or that any huge decepticon is a slow moving vacuum cleaner just so that Prime can prevail.

Demolishor didnt have the chance to grab him because while Prime was shooting him in the head, Ironhide was shooting the **** out of his wheel/s. Prime didnt defeat Demolishor alone, Ironhide helped.

HotRod no, but Rodimus probably was. When he got the Matrix he grew bigger in size and the other autobots were able to tell the difference. One time that he lost it, the others knew it was HotRod. So i guess with the Matrix, he becomes Rodimus who is superior to the normal autobots. Also, he could defeat Galvatron who is supposed to be more powerful than Megatron after Unicron reprogrammed him.

Ultra Magnus has beaten Galvatron, yet Magnus isnt as powerful as Optimus, never has been, never will be, and Rodimus growing bigger means nothing, Sentinal Prime was twice the size of Megatron yet Megatron ripped him apart in the comics, size means nothing, Grindor was bigger than Prime also in the movie.

No, i wasnt referring to that, i was referring to the gun out of ****ing nowhere that killed Dev. The decepticon we all had high expectations of did barely anything and then got killed by a magic gun that the humans remembered they had. Pffft.....

It wasnt a gun out of nowhere, there is actually such a thing as a rail gun in real life that is used on battle ships. Obviously the movie version fantasises the weapon a bit, but believe they are powerful as **** in real life as well. It is a weapon that actually exists.

Prime shouldnt be ruthless. Period. That's what Megatron is for. Prime is Jesus, remember?
Then, in the forest fight, apart from the time that Megatron got 2 hits on him and blew him across the battlefield, he was invincible. The fight was a bit one sided but i can accept it, especially when Prime goes for broke in a desperate attempt to win.

Without Prime's ruthless side the Autobots would have lost long ago, he always has had and always should have a ruthless side. In the most recent storyline in the comics, he tosses Galvatron into a lava pit to stop Galvatron destroying the universe after he betrays Nova Prime. Galvatron dies from this, what Prime did in the movie was no different.

As for the Fallen, he only ripped one of his thrusters when he could have ripped his head. That Fallen was a joke...

He tried to rip Prime's head off, he gets hold of it at one point, but Prime stops him, Prime, with the combination of Jetfire's parts, was just to much for him. Not to mention The Fallen was clearly not at full power if he had to leach Energon from baby TF's on the ship.

So anyway, yes i think that Prime was overpowered in ROTF. Demolishor just let him climb on him. Megatron needed 2 more decepticons and backstabbing to beat Prime who was supposed to be his equal... The Fallen never stood a chance... Prime did everything in the movie. Everything.

I loved Prime in the movie, it totally made up for his poor showing in the first, and I doubt Megatron was as powerful as the first movie because he was dead for 2 years, thats different than being frozen remember.

The Guard accuses me of doing equations on the power levels of the TF. But just because Megatron was frozen or whatever, do we have to calculate how much power Prime lost living all this millenia? Come on, lets not get pedantic here.
Its a franchise with a good and a bad guy who are approximately on the same level. Maybe Megatron was frozen, maybe Prime did some burnouts on the streets, do we really need to get into all of this? Do we need to destroy the premise because the director chose a certain plot? That subplot of the frozen Megatron was great imho but if you re gonna go and be a Nolan...

In ROTF Prime and the autobots basically owned everyone. Megatron brought a huge army, a huge decepticon and a god and lost every one of them. The autobots lost an old man and their weakest robot (arcee). Big whoop.
Of course the decepticons are supposed to lose and obviously we dont care for their generic soldiers as much because none of them talks or does anything, but maybe the autobots should at least come badly wounded out of it.
My point is that the first movie was more balanced.

The Autobots had 10 times as many humans helping them as in the first movie, not to mention things like airstrikes and rail guns which they couldnt use in the first movie, this movie was just as balanced as the first, the battle was just on a bigger scale.

[Rock Sexton]

The Guard accuses me of doing equations on the power levels of the TF. But just because Megatron was frozen or whatever, do we have to calculate how much power Prime lost living all this millenia? Come on, lets not get pedantic here.
Its a franchise with a good and a bad guy who are approximately on the same level. Maybe Megatron was frozen, maybe Prime did some burnouts on the streets, do we really need to get into all of this? Do we need to destroy the premise because the director chose a certain plot? That subplot of the frozen Megatron was great imho but if you re gonna go and be a Nolan...

In ROTF Prime and the autobots basically owned everyone. Megatron brought a huge army, a huge decepticon and a god and lost every one of them. The autobots lost an old man and their weakest robot (arcee). Big whoop.
Of course the decepticons are supposed to lose and obviously we dont care for their generic soldiers as much because none of them talks or does anything, but maybe the autobots should at least come badly wounded out of it.

My point is that the first movie was more balanced.

Excellent points. Yet another absurd element of the movie to me.

[Mr. Earle]

Megatron has defeated Prime in the comics simply from having more energon, this is what happened in the first movie IMO. With Megatron frozen for thousands of years, he had all this energy stored up were ass Prime went though a lot of action in the first movie.LOL :hehe:. I didnt see Ironhide's shots do much damage.
Without Prime's ruthless side the Autobots would have lost long ago, he always has had and always should have a ruthless side. In the most recent storyline in the comics, he tosses Galvatron into a lava pit to stop Galvatron destroying the universe after he betrays Nova Prime. Galvatron dies from this, what Prime did in the movie was no different.
Its a different thing killing someone in battle, or killing someone because he will destroy the universe and its a whole other thing to execute a prisoner of war or to go all Hostel on your opponent. "Give me your face".
WHAT THE HELL!
He tried to rip Prime's head off, he gets hold of it at one point, but Prime stops him, Prime, with the combination of Jetfire's parts, was just to much for him. Not to mention The Fallen was clearly not at full power if he had to leach Energon from baby TF's on the ship.Then thats where the movie fails. They bring Devastator in and make him a vacuum cleaner, they bring a TF demigod and make him underpowered because of lack of energon... If you like it, then you will love it if Unicron is beaten by Prime in the third amirite? Prime will punch him and he ll die.
I loved Prime in the movie, it totally made up for his poor showing in the first, and I doubt Megatron was as powerful as the first movie because he was dead for 2 years, thats different than being frozen remember.Because.... Really now, do you have to make assumptions that suit you and the film? So Megatron could be beaten by Bumblebee now?
The Autobots had 10 times as many humans helping them as in the first movie, not to mention things like airstrikes and rail guns which they couldnt use in the first movie, this movie was just as balanced as the first, the battle was just on a bigger scale.Yeah, the humans used guns on them and the decepticons didnt even flinch. But then... BAM they used their magic rail gun. Why dont they put that on tanks or give one to optimus? One shot killed Devastator, with two-three they ll kill unicron.

The majority in this forum claims that the fallen was underpowered and Prime was overpowered. I think its objective. Why do people keep defending this **** movie? You think bay has enough brain in his head to care about the balance of the movie? His only direction to ILM for the forest fight was that Prime should at some point rip Grindor's face in two. Do you really think he thought about the balance? In the first one he presented the decepticons as real threats, hard to beat, killing machines and now they were a joke.

Ultra Magnus has beaten Galvatron, yet Magnus isnt as powerful as Optimus, never has been, never will be, and Rodimus growing bigger means nothing, Sentinal Prime was twice the size of Megatron yet Megatron ripped him apart in the comics, size means nothing, Grindor was bigger than Prime also in the movie.I didnt say that it was a size issue. But i do think that because RotRod has the Matrix, it makes him just as powerful.
As for the math on this, sure Magnus is a great warrior and beating Galvatron says a lot. Besides, havent you seen the villain job to the good guys before? In any case, Galvatron is supposed to be better than Megatron. Its stated in the movie and i think that makes him a very powerful decepticon. The fact that it all gets mixed up is because G1 was never too thought out.

[Mr. Earle]

Excellent points. Yet another absurd element of the movie to me.Thanks a lot! :woot:

[SymbioteKal-El]

The Fallen was a mixed bag for me, I would have liked him to be as omnipotent as he was in the comics but then how would have defeated him. In the comics its through Jetfire using his brains and Grimlock using his brawn, although The Fallen totally owned Grimlock.

So overall The Fallen was a mixed bag, and we should have spent more time with him really but the movie also had to showcase Megatron, Starscream and Soundwave so it was difficult.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

LOL :hehe:. I didnt see Ironhide's shots do much damage.

Ha ha, sorry about that. But yeah, Prime didnt take Demolisher down on his own.

Its a different thing killing someone in battle, or killing someone because he will destroy the universe and its a whole other thing to execute a prisoner of war or to go all Hostel on your opponent. "Give me your face".
WHAT THE HELL!

So the final battle in ROTF isnt a battle? The Fallen was threatening to destory not only the autobots new adopted planet, but kill every living thing on it as well, after seeing your own planet destroyed and "Whole generations lost" as Prime said, thats more than enough of reason to go Hostel on an opponent IMO.

Then thats where the movie fails. They bring Devastator in and make him a vacuum cleaner, they bring a TF demigod and make him underpowered because of lack of energon... If you like it, then you will love it if Unicron is beaten by Prime in the third amirite? Prime will punch him and he ll die.

Sorry, but i feel you are being a bit ridiculous here, if Prime defeats Unicron EVER in Transformers, thats the day I stop reading/watching it. The Fallen wasnt a demigod, he was a Prime who turned evil. And no matter who you are, if you dont have much energy, you wont be that strong.

Because.... Really now, do you have to make assumptions that suit you and the film? So Megatron could be beaten by Bumblebee now?

When did I say anything remotely close to that? All I said was size doesnt matter, you need the power to with it as well, not to mention bravery.

Also, in the comics and cartoon, Prime and Megatron are essentially equals (and Megatron's cannon is no more powerful than Prime's), they have defeated each in the past due to circumstances and how much energon they have had. Its no different in the movies. Being dead for 2 years isnt going to make you powerful.


Yeah, the humans used guns on them and the decepticons didnt even flinch. But then... BAM they used their magic rail gun. Why dont they put that on tanks or give one to optimus? One shot killed Devastator, with two-three they ll kill unicron.

Devastator wasnt even the size of a pyramid, Unicron is the size of a planet, a rail gun would be useless. And as I told you before there is such thing as a rail gun, and it IS that big and powerful.

The majority in this forum claims that the fallen was underpowered and Prime was overpowered. I think its objective. Why do people keep defending this **** movie? You think bay has enough brain in his head to care about the balance of the movie? His only direction to ILM for the forest fight was that Prime should at some point rip Grindor's face in two. Do you really think he thought about the balance? In the first one he presented the decepticons as real threats, hard to beat, killing machines and now they were a joke.

Just because the majority in the forum says I have to? And in fact the majority in the forum loved Prime in the movie. I keep defending it because I LIKED it, crazy concept huh? A different opinion! Give me ROTF over the ****** likes of the FF movies, Elektra, the Punisher movies, and especially X-Men 3, the ultimate **** movie.

I liked it, and I have no problem with you not liking it so give me the same courtesy.

I didnt say that it was a size issue. But i do think that because RotRod has the Matrix, it makes him just as powerful.

The Matrix boosts their power, but it depends on how powerful they were before becoming a Prime, IMO Optimus was superior.

As for the math on this, sure Magnus is a great warrior and beating Galvatron says a lot. Besides, havent you seen the villain job to the good guys before? In any case, Galvatron is supposed to be better than Megatron. Its stated in the movie and i think that makes him a very powerful decepticon. The fact that it all gets mixed up is because G1 was never too thought out.

So whats your problem with all of this happening in the movies? Its all about the situations, etc that the characters are in at that point.

[Mr. Earle]

So the final battle in ROTF isnt a battle? The Fallen was threatening to destory not only the autobots new adopted planet, but kill every living thing on it as well, after seeing your own planet destroyed and "Whole generations lost" as Prime said, thats more than enough of reason to go Hostel on an opponent IMO.No, thats more than enough reason to kill an opponent.
Also, in the comics and cartoon, Prime and Megatron are essentially equals (and Megatron's cannon is no more powerful than Prime's), they have defeated each in the past due to circumstances and how much energon they have had. Its no different in the movies. Being dead for 2 years isnt going to make you powerful.
No, but why would it depower you?
Devastator wasnt even the size of a pyramid, Unicron is the size of a planet, a rail gun would be useless. And as I told you before there is such thing as a rail gun, and it IS that big and powerful.I was exaggerating. Even if that thing exists, well it took out one of the most notorious and dangerous TF ever in one shot. I would have preferred it if he went down by a dozen of autobots or another big bot.

Just because the majority in the forum says I have to? And in fact the majority in the forum loved Prime in the movie. I keep defending it because I LIKED it, crazy concept huh? A different opinion! Give me ROTF over the ****** likes of the FF movies, Elektra, the Punisher movies, and especially X-Men 3, the ultimate **** movie.

I liked it, and I have no problem with you not liking it so give me the same courtesy. Ok, sorry about that. I apologize.
So whats your problem with all of this happening in the movies? Its all about the situations, etc that the characters are in at that point.If Rodimus is Galvatron's main opponent and takes him down frequently, i say that makes him pretty powerful.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

No, thats more than enough reason to kill an opponent.

And he did kill him, brutally you say, but factor in the fact that The Fallen also betrayed Prime's ancestor's and disgraced The Prime name, and I dont think he did act over the top. Without ripping his face off, he wouldnt have had the chance to rip out and crush his spark.

No, but why would it depower you?

Look what happened to Jetfire in stasis lock, he wasnt even dead, yet could barely move or transform when he first was awakened. Being dead is bound to take energy away from you, especially the way Megatron went out, he took a big hit with the Allspark.

Plus he was re-built from other TF's parts, i'm sure that was a factor in him not being as strong also.

I was exaggerating. Even if that thing exists, well it took out one of the most notorious and dangerous TF ever in one shot. I would have preferred it if he went down by a dozen of autobots or another big bot.

It does exist, and is used by battleships to take out large area's from HUGE distances, it is a damn powerful gun.

Ok, sorry about that. I apologize.

No problems :up:

If Rodimus is Galvatron's main opponent and takes him down frequently, i say that makes him pretty powerful.

Rodimus was no slouch, but fights arent just about strength, power, etc, its about tactics also. The reason Hot Rod lasted that long against Galvatron in the movie, was from running, hiding, and hitting him fast and then getting out of there. Once Galvatron got his hands him, the fight was over if the Matrix hadnt been there.

Also, in the comics at the time, which everyone agreed were better written, Ultra Magnus was Galvatron's main opponent.

[Mr. Earle]

Look what happened to Jetfire in stasis lock, he wasnt even dead, yet could barely move or transform when he first was awakened. Being dead is bound to take energy away from you, especially the way Megatron went out, he took a big hit with the Allspark.Jetfire is just too old. I think that the stasis lock that he was in is the equivalent of an old man passing in his sleep.
As for Megatron, i think that he took some much needed metal from another robot. I dont think that his metal is better than the other robots. And besides, it seems to me that the robots are like plaster. They can morph into almost everything. Once those pieces were attached to Meg, they became part of him like a piece of plaster merges with a bigger without any problems.
The production team wanted to redesign him and that was a nice way of doing it. I wouldnt get so deep as to ponder whether the way it happened affected him. Megatron IMHO is as powerful as he was in TF2007.
Also, if i were Bay, i wouldnt make this a common practice in the franchise or the robots would start eating each other to grow in size and power. Nobody would be the same again.
Rodimus was no slouch, but fights arent just about strength, power, etc, its about tactics also. The reason Hot Rod lasted that long against Galvatron in the movie, was from running, hiding, and hitting him fast and then getting out of there. Once Galvatron got his hands him, the fight was over if the Matrix hadnt been there.After the film, the G1 series continued with weekly episodes with the new cast. Rodimus as the leader of the autobots often took on Galvatron and beaten him. The battle you refer to was his first battle as Rodimus. He was like a college basketball player in his first NBA game.

In any case, i think that the franchise should let other robots shine as well. I mean, Prime's predecessors in the leadership were just as legendary as he is. Rodimus should have a fair chance. As i said before, Prime was once young and inexperienced too.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Jetfire is just too old. I think that the stasis lock that he was in is the equivalent of an old man passing in his sleep.
As for Megatron, i think that he took some much needed metal from another robot. I dont think that his metal is better than the other robots. And besides, it seems to me that the robots are like plaster. They can morph into almost everything. Once those pieces were attached to Meg, they became part of him like a piece of plaster merges with a bigger without any problems.
The production team wanted to redesign him and that was a nice way of doing it. I wouldnt get so deep as to ponder whether the way it happened affected him. Megatron IMHO is as powerful as he was in TF2007.
Also, if i were Bay, i wouldnt make this a common practice in the franchise or the robots would start eating each other to grow in size and power. Nobody would be the same again.

But taking parts from a less powerful Decepticon and putting them on Megatron had to have an effect on his power. He lost a lot of parts in TF1, including an arm and a leg. If they were replaced with parts from a less powerful TF then it must have effected his overall strength.

Plus, Jetfire was old because he hadnt had energon for so long. If he had gotten a bit dose of Energon, his parts wouldnt have been rusting, etc.

After the film, the G1 series continued with weekly episodes with the new cast. Rodimus as the leader of the autobots often took on Galvatron and beaten him. The battle you refer to was his first battle as Rodimus. He was like a college basketball player in his first NBA game.

He wasnt actually Rodimus for most of the fight though, he was Hot Rod, and the way he survived was by adopting a hit and run strategy that worked well until Galvatron got his hands on him. If the Matrix wasnt there, Hot Rod would have died.

In any case, i think that the franchise should let other robots shine as well. I mean, Prime's predecessors in the leadership were just as legendary as he is. Rodimus should have a fair chance. As i said before, Prime was once young and inexperienced too.

I think it has let other robots shine, for me, the most heroic part of TF1 was Jazz vs Megatron, and the most emotional parts of both movies involved Bumblebee. Ironhide and the Twins got plenty of money shots as well in both TF1 and TF2 in Ironhide's case.

But Prime and Megatron are the big daddies, and this is why they got the most screentime in the movie IMO. And i disagree about Prime's predecessors being as legendary as he is, for one, the other Prime's were never involved in the Autobot-Decepticon war. Sentinal Prime was initially, but died pretty quickly at the hands of Megatron.

[The Guard]

He wasnt actually Rodimus for most of the fight though, he was Hot Rod, and the way he survived was by adopting a hit and run strategy that worked well until Galvatron got his hands on him. If the Matrix wasnt there, Hot Rod would have died.

So it's The Matrix that made Hot Rod special. So there's nothing special about Hot Rod. So any autobot with The Matrix could beat Galvatron!

[Mr. Earle]

But taking parts from a less powerful Decepticon and putting them on Megatron had to have an effect on his power. He lost a lot of parts in TF1, including an arm and a leg. If they were replaced with parts from a less powerful TF then it must have effected his overall strength.
Meh.... as i said, i view it differently. Like the metal is plaster or something. It certainly has similar qualities the way they transform into anything...
But, even if you look at people, would transplanting an army from an old man to a younger affect him so much? I dunno. I dont look so much in to it. If anything, Megatron looked more powerful this time around with that huge claw and cannon he had.
He wasnt actually Rodimus for most of the fight though, he was Hot Rod, and the way he survived was by adopting a hit and run strategy that worked well until Galvatron got his hands on him. If the Matrix wasnt there, Hot Rod would have died.But i was talking about Rodimus and not Hot Rod. We discussed earlier how the Matrix makes him bigger and more powerful. Also, since the robots age (Kup, Jetfire) it would be logical that a 25 year old robot (analogically) wouldnt be as good a fighter as a 40 year old veteran (Prime).

I think it has let other robots shine, for me, the most heroic part of TF1 was Jazz vs Megatron, and the most emotional parts of both movies involved Bumblebee. Ironhide and the Twins got plenty of money shots as well in both TF1 and TF2 in Ironhide's case.Well if someone should have stood up to Megatron, that should have been Ironhide. What the hell was Jazz thinking? It wasnt an accident, but a decision. I know he is second in command but unfortunately they had made him too small and weak. Of course other robots shine, both in the movies and the other parts of the franchise but all i am saying is that Rodimus or whoever should have an equal chance to reach legendary status as a leader. Its not that Prime is who he is because he beats everybody. He cant beat Tripticon! Prime isnt inherently Jesus, he earned his status. So other robots could and should be able to do it.

But Prime and Megatron are the big daddies, and this is why they got the most screentime in the movie IMO. And i disagree about Prime's predecessors being as legendary as he is, for one, the other Prime's were never involved in the Autobot-Decepticon war. Sentinal Prime was initially, but died pretty quickly at the hands of Megatron.In the movies, the war started during Prime's leadership so his predecessors wouldnt have done anything, but in the general franchise i think that they were pretty good. Prime is the daddy of course. So it's The Matrix that made Hot Rod special. So there's nothing special about Hot Rod. So any autobot with The Matrix could beat Galvatron!Watch "the hardest burden to bear". Its on youtube. Rodimus loses the matrix and the decepticons get it. Scourge (if i remember the name correctly, that blue decepticon that looks like an old man) gets it and he puts it in his chest. The matrix mutates him into robo-Hulk and he beats the hell out of Galvatron and two of his minions. The rest of the decepticons bow to him out of fear. In the end, HotRod accepts the burden of leadership and his destiny and engages Scourge who he beats easier than Prime did the Fallen (so you see that G1 isnt really realistic when it comes to power levels. Its who the writers chose to beat who) and gets it back becoming Rodimus again.
I think that HotRod was a naive rookie who became leader only because he touched it first or because he was chosen or whatever. He wasnt really powerful or anything. If you look at Prime, he remains the same even without the Matrix but in HotRod's case i suppose they had to transform him so that the autobot leader isnt the weakest of the bunch. The G1 series depicts his early years in leadership which are bound to be full of mistakes and self esteem issues.
So take all that as you will. Either through the matrix or whatever, i liked the guy. He was less of a rookie than animated Prime is right now. God i hate that show...

[The Caped Knight]

THE FALLEN : ROBOT CONCEPTS
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2808/36485064.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7985/23550624.jpg

Dynasty of The Primes
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5522/73313055.jpg

http://www.joshnizzi.com/TF2.htm

[Mr. Earle]

I like the second one. He looks buff.
And what does that thing attacking the aircraft carrier transform into? It looks like it TF into a sub or something.

Anyway, i think that they made the right call when they decided to make the Primes different and more... whatever they are anyway...

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Meh.... as i said, i view it differently. Like the metal is plaster or something. It certainly has similar qualities the way they transform into anything...
But, even if you look at people, would transplanting an army from an old man to a younger affect him so much? I dunno. I dont look so much in to it. If anything, Megatron looked more powerful this time around with that huge claw and cannon he had.

Looking more powerful is nothing, as you said if you were able to attach an old man's arm to a younger mans arm, of course it would effect his strength, not to mention agility and recovery time.

If you view it differently there is nothing left to discuss and we should just agree to disagree on this point.

But i was talking about Rodimus and not Hot Rod. We discussed earlier how the Matrix makes him bigger and more powerful. Also, since the robots age (Kup, Jetfire) it would be logical that a 25 year old robot (analogically) wouldnt be as good a fighter as a 40 year old veteran (Prime).

Well Jetfire in the cartoon wasnt aged like he was in the movie, Kup was an old-timer because of the amount of crap he went through.

Well if someone should have stood up to Megatron, that should have been Ironhide. What the hell was Jazz thinking? It wasnt an accident, but a decision. I know he is second in command but unfortunately they had made him too small and weak.

Jazz was the leader at that point, he didnt know if Prime was incapacitated or dead, so he took on the responsibility, if the other Autobots had done the same and not pussied out, Jazz would still be alive. For me, Jazz still has the most heroic moment in the franchise.

Of course other robots shine, both in the movies and the other parts of the franchise but all i am saying is that Rodimus or whoever should have an equal chance to reach legendary status as a leader. Its not that Prime is who he is because he beats everybody. He cant beat Tripticon! Prime isnt inherently Jesus, he earned his status. So other robots could and should be able to do it.

We have only gotten two movies with Optimus, and you want him replaced already? Anyway, Rodimus Prime put the death knell on the franchise, the ratings dropped considerably when Rodimus took over from Optimus, that tells you he simply wasnt as good or interesting a character.

In the movies, the war started during Prime's leadership so his predecessors wouldnt have done anything, but in the general franchise i think that they were pretty good. Prime is the daddy of course

In the movie universe, there was a Decepticon-Autobot war before Optimus ever existed, ROTF explain this, The Fallen was the first Decepticon, and Optimus wasnt the leader, Megatron was, for all intents and purposes.

st burden to bear". Its on youtube. Rodimus loses the matrix and the decepticons get it. Scourge (if i remember the name correctly, that blue decepticon that looks like an old man) gets it and he puts it in his chest. The matrix mutates him into robo-Hulk and he beats the hell out of Galvatron and two of his minions. The rest of the decepticons bow to him out of fear. In the end, HotRod accepts the burden of leadership and his destiny and engages Scourge who he beats easier than Prime did the Fallen (so you see that G1 isnt really realistic when it comes to power levels. Its who the writers chose to beat who) and gets it back becoming Rodimus again.
I think that HotRod was a naive rookie who became leader only because he touched it first or because he was chosen or whatever. He wasnt really powerful or anything. If you look at Prime, he remains the same even without the Matrix but in HotRod's case i suppose they had to transform him so that the autobot leader isnt the weakest of the bunch. The G1 series depicts his early years in leadership which are bound to be full of mistakes and self esteem issues.
So take all that as you will. Either through the matrix or whatever, i liked the guy. He was less of a rookie than animated Prime is right now. God i hate that show...

I just dont think Rodimus is that good of a character to be honest, he is no Optimus, and I have even found Sentinal and Nova Prime much more interesting in the comics. To me he is a better character as Hot Rod.

[Mr. Earle]

Looking more powerful is nothing, as you said if you were able to attach an old man's arm to a younger mans arm, of course it would effect his strength, not to mention agility and recovery time.

If you view it differently there is nothing left to discuss and we should just agree to disagree on this point.I simply think that Megatron was in need of metal. I dont think he got weaker because it came from another TF. He was as powerful as before. Now the fact that Bay had him and everyone else job to Optimus has nothing to do with the plot. In a Nolan movie maybe, but not in a Bay one. Megatron had to die in the first film so that it could end but since Megatron is so iconic, he cant stay dead, plus they needed to give him a new design, so they did the transplant. Do you really have to reach so far?
Well Jetfire in the cartoon wasnt aged like he was in the movie, Kup was an old-timer because of the amount of crap he went through.What does this have to do with what i was saying?

Jazz was the leader at that point, he didnt know if Prime was incapacitated or dead, so he took on the responsibility, if the other Autobots had done the same and not pussied out, Jazz would still be alive. For me, Jazz still has the most heroic moment in the franchise.
Indeed he was heroic, but it was a mistake from Bay. Maybe Jazz was second in command because of wisdom, strategic ability but he certainly wasnt because of his fighting ability. He was tiny and weak. So the fact that he took on Megatron, while valiant, it was stupid. But i am ok with it. As a leader, he had to do his duty, buy some time for his troops to regroup.
We have only gotten two movies with Optimus, and you want him replaced already? Anyway, Rodimus Prime put the death knell on the franchise, the ratings dropped considerably when Rodimus took over from Optimus, that tells you he simply wasnt as good or interesting a character.I dont want to replace him. Have you not been reading what i post? Bruce is always the better and more interesting Batman, but since he is so perfect, i personally dont mind a story about a future batman who is different from Bruce. Like Dick or Terry. So i dont mind if in the future, Rodimus takes over and we see some of him. They can keep making movies about Optimus, but maybe after 10000 Optimus adventures, his time is up and someone else can take it from there. Just because at some point Bruce gets old and someone else takes over, it doesnt mean that you cant make infinite stories about him. You can have all those and the future version and enjoy both. Thats the allure of elseworlds stories as well.

Then its a matter of how you do it. IMHO, Bruce will always be batman even in the year 3000 AD. Terry will just be batman in the year 3040. So maybe Prime can always be our contemporary and we can read stories about his future successor. Or, they can do it the Flash way, where the new guy takes over and they stop writing about the old one. In any case, i dont want to let go of Optimus, but i can enjoy a story about his future successor... So option A for me.

In the movie universe, there was a Decepticon-Autobot war before Optimus ever existed, ROTF explain this, The Fallen was the first Decepticon, and Optimus wasnt the leader, Megatron was, for all intents and purposes.
Personally, i dont know what the **** is going on in the Bayverse because bay never takes the time to tell a coherent story. In the first movie Prime tells us that at some point, Megatron and his followers snapped and started killing robots. Cybertron was a peaceful planet ruled by Meg and Prime until then. Obviously, the Fallen wasnt the one that started the war. Megatron was. Maybe the fallen corrupted Meg, but the point is that he was entombed, something that the movie was too busy to show, so you have to read the comics. Now, since the 6 primes died and the other one was entombed (by who i dont know) then where did the other robots come from? Anyway, the point is.... oh **** it...
Btw, if they ever make a movie that flashbacks to the start of the war and the fall of Megatron, i would rather if the justification wasnt the Fallen. "boohoohoo the fallen corrupted me" sounds easy, cliche and unimaginative. I'd rather if Megatron turns evil after some events and character development. It would be nice if we actually saw something besides explosions.

I just dont think Rodimus is that good of a character to be honest, he is no Optimus, and I have even found Sentinal and Nova Prime much more interesting in the comics. To me he is a better character as Hot Rod.I respect your opinion, but as i said before, i can enjoy the countless stories of Prime that keep coming out, and still enjoy a story about the future when he isnt around and his successor is trying to follow his footsteps since he was so great. What can i tell you, i enjoy diversity.

Also, all the other Primes you refer to are badass like Optimus. Well if you re gonna replace Prime, shouldnt you replace him with someone different? And if you recall, in one of my earlier posts i was talking about an episode where Rodimus is struggling with his responsibilities and Kup explains that the same thing happened when a young Optimus first assumed command. So dont you think that Rodimus is just like a young Optimus? Did you want his replacement to be equal to Prime? What would have been the point? And i dont expect the kids to understand this, because in their minds (and in mine back then) that new kid sucks and Prime was so wise and badass. But as an adult, i can see how it works and for me, its like watching Terry trying to be a good Batman after Bruce. I was angry back then about that ****** show with a stupid kid batman, but it turns out it was great and i only had to stop being a butthurt fanboy and accept some change. And if anything, it wasnt change, nothing changed for batman. It was just a story about his distant future...

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The Fallen should definately have been in the movie more, I know they wanted to give Megatron and Starscream more screen-time, but you have to give the title villain more screen time also, he barely did anything in the final battle.

[Mr. Earle]

JEdZ-yjxHLI&feature=fvw
You'll find this video relevant to the title. This is why that "only a Prime can defeat me" was ridiculous.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

So it's The Matrix that made Hot Rod special. So there's nothing special about Hot Rod. So any autobot with The Matrix could beat Galvatron!

Not any autobot could use the power of the matrix or be empowered by it.