Shakespearean English

[Timstuff]

Am I the only one who hopes that they take a cue from Ultimate Thor and drop the corny Shakespearean dialect that Thor uses? I mean I know a lot of people think it's "iconic" and makes him sound "god-like," but I've always wondered-- what on earth does Shakespearean English have to do with ancient Norse mythology? They're two completely different cultures from two completely different time periods, and the accent has always been one of those silly things that people just sort of seem to accept about a character.

Above all else though, I don't think the audience would be able to take the character seriously if he's talking with "thee's" and "thou's." When I saw the Hulk vs. Thor DTV, every time Thor opened his mouth I couldn't help but snicker a little just because his dialogue sounds so corny when someone is actually reading it. If the audience is going to take Thor seriously, I think that their best option would be to make him speak in plain English.

[TheCorpulent1]

The Ultimate comics are not the first to drop the Shakespeare-speak; Thor actually started out without it in his earliest appearances under Stan Lee. It was added in some time later to make Thor sound more regal or something, but various writers have chosen not to use it throughout Thor's history--most recently, JMS in the current Thor comics.

I don't personally mind the Shakespeare-speak; it's given us such memorable lines as "Ultron, we would have words with thee" in Busiek's Avengers run. But it can make for overly cumbersome dialogue, a shockingly large number of writers have no f***ing clue how to use it properly, and people like Timstuff think it's corny, so I voted no, it should not be in the movie. Thor is relatively obscure to the general public and his world is vastly different from most other major comic book characters'; it's not what you expect to see when someone mentions "this movie's based on a comic book." So the odds are stacked against his movie being a huge success as it is. Anything that can make it more digestible to the general audience, short of betraying the spirit of the classic Thor, is welcome. The fewer obstacles to people enjoying Thor, the better.

[Canis Sapiens]

I totally agree with Corp. :up:

[green]

If they are going to use it atleast they have a director who is capable of handling it.
Personally I think it's kind of silly but again I trust Branagh with it.

[Panthro]

What Corp said.

[Shivsguy616]

I just hate that everyone refers to it as "Shakespearean English". Rather ignorant...

[Triad]

I totally agree with Corp.
But it wouldn't hurt to throw a few lines in now and again when the moment warrants it, though. 2 or 3 tops.
My favorite Thor is The Ancient Asgard Trilogy & I'd love to hear some lines from that. "Loki, clean Thy mess!"

[SuperFerret]

I think a manner of speaking similar to that used in the Lord of the Rings movies would generate the same feel without having the thees and thous.

[Aztec]

He's supposed to be Norse. Why in the world would he speak "Shakespearean English"? So silly. The Ultimates got it right (once again).

[bossman550]

there wont be shakperian dialouge
www.firstshowing.net/2009/06/07/profile-on-marvel-studios-with-big-updates-from-kevin-feige/

[Timstuff]

He's supposed to be Norse. Why in the world would he speak "Shakespearean English"? So silly.

Exactly. Vikings didn't even speak English (because they were from Scandinavia, not Great Britain) and went into decline centuries before Shakesperean dialect even became prominent in England. The Shakespearean dialogue in the comics was only there because the writers knew that it sounded "olde tymey," and assumed that the kids reading the books were too ignorant about ancient history to think beyond "that's how people used to talk."

there wont be shakperian dialouge
www.firstshowing.net/2009/06/07/profile-on-marvel-studios-with-big-updates-from-kevin-feige/

Good. :up:

[Thunder_god]

Umm, Thor is neither a Viking nor is he Norse. He is an Asgardian, and who the hell knows how they speak, really?

I say let the gravitas of the dialogue be injected by the speaker (ala Patrick Stewart, who ALWAYS sounds noble) and not the words themselves.

T

[He-Man]

I think they should keep it. I have a feeling Thor is going to be a mix between Classic/Ultimate. Part of the film is going to be set in modern times. A guy going around speaking like that in modern times. People will think he's crazy or a little off based on that alone.

[He-Man]

there wont be shakperian dialouge
www.firstshowing.net/2009/06/07/profile-on-marvel-studios-with-big-updates-from-kevin-feige/

Ok. Guess that ends this debate.

[Timstuff]

Umm, Thor is neither a Viking nor is he Norse. He is an Asgardian, and who the hell knows how they speak, really?

They're from Norse mythology, and it doesn't change the fact that the period of Shakespearean English in England had nothing to do with Norse Mythology whatsoever. They might just as well have Thor speaking in Japanese as they would have him speaking Shakespeare-style.

[TheCorpulent1]

Or, you know, Modern English. Really, is anything other than Old Norse "more accurate" than anything else?

[The Ace of Knaves]

@Timstuff

Well why does he even speak English at all then if you go by that logic?

I think if done well it could be great. Not too bombastic though.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oddly enough, I'm watching an episode of Transformers where some of the Transformers go back to Camelot (around AD 540, according to the episode) and encounter people speaking--you guessed it--Modern English with "thees" and "thous." Apparently it was a pretty widespread phenomenon back in the day. ;)

[The Ace of Knaves]

Yea it could work like that. Just have him speak regal English and use thee's and thou's or whatever.

I don't see how that could be cheesy if delivered well. As long as the actors ain't completely hamming it up I really don't see the problem.

[Mister J]

It certainly doesn't need to be overdone, to the point of becoming a point of discussion in itself. However, if I don't get at least one "I say thee, nay!" and a couple of "Aye"s, I'm going to be a little miffed. :o

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, whether it makes sense or not, the perception is still that it's goofy to a lot of people. And, when you're trying to sell a movie, perception is everything.

[Timstuff]

It doesn't really matter anyway, since it's been confirmed that he's speaking modern english without the goofy "thees" and thous," and rightly so. If he's going to be speaking English, he might as well be speaking it in a way that doesn't make him sound like an ass.

[TheCorpulent1]

It never ceases to amaze me that people hate that mode of speech so much. I've encountered people who literally wouldn't read Thor because of it. That absolutely astounds me.

[The Ace of Knaves]

Yea I don't get that either.

Seriously, how does "thee" or "thou" or "aye" sound goofy?

They are God's, who have been around for centuries. Why would they speak standard English? I think the way they speak makes them more unique and Godly.

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think it's necessary, but I also don't think it's some kind of cardinal sin against the written word like some of the people who hate it do.

[The Ace of Knaves]

Well maybe not necessary, but I like it...when written well. I loved Fractions writing in the Ages of Thunder series. How can anyone not like that? It was used perfectly and definitely didn't come off goofy.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, sometimes it can be used really well. I got a shiver down my spine for that line I mentioned way back at the start of this thread: Thor bashes through a bunch of Ultron drones, breaks down a wall, and, standing in front of the rest of the Avengers, declares, "Ultron, we would have words with thee." Replacing the "thee" with a "you" robs the line of some of its super-awesomeness.

[The Ace of Knaves]

HAHA most definitely. That's epic.

[Kurosawa]

No reason not to use it in the right spot.

[CaptainStacy]

He's supposed to be Norse. Why in the world would he speak "Shakespearean English"? So silly. The Ultimates got it right (once again).

Thor speaks EVERY language on earth...when he got around to learning english, perhaps Shakespearean English was what was in style...

I'd like to hear him use it. I think it would help the character's uniqueness in a movie genre that's becoming increasingly crowded...

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh yeah, the gods are fluent in all languages, aren't they? I remember reading that somewhere.

[Agent 194]

Am I the only one who hopes that they take a cue from Ultimate Thor and drop the corny Shakespearean dialect that Thor uses? I mean I know a lot of people think it's "iconic" and makes him sound "god-like," but I've always wondered-- what on earth does Shakespearean English have to do with ancient Norse mythology? They're two completely different cultures from two completely different time periods, and the accent has always been one of those silly things that people just sort of seem to accept about a character.

Above all else though, I don't think the audience would be able to take the character seriously if he's talking with "thee's" and "thou's." When I saw the Hulk vs. Thor DTV, every time Thor opened his mouth I couldn't help but snicker a little just because his dialogue sounds so corny when someone is actually reading it. If the audience is going to take Thor seriously, I think that their best option would be to make him speak in plain English.

Oh no, Timstuff. They've got to do the "corny Shakespearean dialect". It's one of the things I loved about it as a kid. It made Thor and every thing, story, character he encountered like the most important thing in the world to me at the time. I love it so....]I SAY THEE NAY![/COLOR]

[Agent 194]

I think it would help the character's uniqueness in a movie genre that's becoming increasingly crowded...


and I agree Captain. Good point.

[SuperFerret]

Oh yeah, the gods are fluent in all languages, aren't they? I remember reading that somewhere.

I just died laughing trying to imagine Thor speaking in Chinese.

[Agent 194]

there wont be shakperian dialouge
www.firstshowing.net/2009/06/07/profile-on-marvel-studios-with-big-updates-from-kevin-feige/ (http://www.firstshowing.net/2009/06/07/profile-on-marvel-studios-with-big-updates-from-kevin-feige/)


Shame. Mistake, bad choice in my opinion

[Manic]

I'm not a fan of Ye Olde English, but mostly because writers who don't know how to use it have ruined it for me. I sigh every time someone mixes up thou, thee, thy, thine, and ye. And it happens a lot.

[The Ace of Knaves]

Yea but that should fall at the feet of the writer, not the style of writing.

Fraction used it brilliantly in the Ages of Thunder series. Seriously, that is some of the best, most entertaining writing I've read in a comic book. It was like some kind of poetry.

[chamber-music]

I think a manner of speaking similar to that used in the Lord of the Rings movies would generate the same feel without having the thees and thous.

I agree I think they should do what Lord Of The Rings did and have him speak in that old medival fashion speech pattern over putting thees and thous after each sentance.

Shakespherean English is the early modern English we speak now after the language was standardised by London-based dialect in government and administration and by the standardising effect of printing.

before the 15th century old english and middle english sound more like french and german due to being conquered by old germanic speaking Saxons, Latin speaking Romans ect.

[Canis Sapiens]

I agree I think they should do what Lord Of The Rings did and have him speak in that old medival fashion speech pattern over putting thees and thous after each sentance.

Shakespherean English is the early modern English we speak now after the language was standardised by London-based dialect in government and administration and by the standardising effect of printing.

before the 15th century old english and middle english didn't sound more like french and german due to being conquered by old germanic speaking Saxons, Latin speaking Romans ect.

:wow::up::up:

Thanks for the lesson! Seriously, that's one the things I love about these boards. You can actually learn something other than "who's stronger than who?".

[Spider-Vader]

Maybe a little but the whole movie shouldn't be like that. It would probably turn people away from the movie.

[catintheengine]

You see, I'm torn here.

I agree with some of you that it might turn away some of the general audience.

On the other hand, being a someone who's studied some of Shakespeare's works, I recognize that there is something so epically poetic about the way it it sounds when spoken properly. And we know that Branagh can handle it as a director.

I mean, I know what they said about the film wouldn't have it, but in the whole scheme of things I would much rather have them speaking Elizabethan English over really modern English with colloquialisms and what have you.

Maybe they could find a nice middle-ground? Like...'Shakespeare Lite'?

[KangConquers]

I think there was already an article stating branagh would not use Shakespearean tongue.

Having read the first draft, I can confirm that there is no shakespeare in it. at least not in the original script.

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think the original script is very relevant anymore.

[Agent 194]

I know this is a topic long dead and probably a moot point...but because it's fresh on my mind....I still think it's a mistake not to have Thor speak as I've always read.

Again.... Yay, Verily...I say thee NAY to nixing that idea.

And Manic...I like your David McCallum avatar.

[Aeltri]

I think Thor should speak english with a slight scandinavian accent, you don't want him sounding like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMewRRJCLm8) guy.

[piccolo]

Even though they wont, i would prefer the olde english and dont care if thats not what vikings did. It just sounds better and different to me. But oh well.

[Franklin Richards]

If you want to get down to it, it's not Shakespearean unless it's iambic pentameter.


Now if the script were written in iambic pentameter that would be ****ing awesome! Even if thee and thou were never uttered.


:thor: :thor: :thor:

[piccolo]

Norse viking gods speaking shakesperean english makes as much sense as them speaking british or american english.

[Manowar]

I'm not an English professor, but I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as "Shakespearean English" even though many people seem to use this term. Thor's speach is nothing like Shakespeare at all. Thor speaks "Old English" in most of his comic books. If Thor spoke "shakesperean", 95% of his readers would be like WTF is Thor saying???

[TheCorpulent1]

Thor doesn't speak Old English. If he did, most comic readers wouldn't be able to understand it.

People call it Shakespearean English not because it's an accurate term, but because it's fairly descriptive of the high-minded, melodramatic sort of speech pattern, at least compared to modern vernacular, that a lot of writers employed for Thor. Also, a lot of random civilians in earlier Thor comics used to comment on how Thor sounded like something from out of Shakespeare, so that may have something to do with it.

[[A]]

Eventhough 99.9999996% of these people have never read Shakespeare :o

[TheCorpulent1]

Doesn't pretty much everyone in the English-speaking world have to read Shakespeare for school at some point? Granted, I doubt any of us are master scholars of Shakespeare's oeuvre or anything, but I imagine 99% of us are familiar with at least one Shakespearean work.

[Manowar]

Thor is a mix of Modern and maybe Victorian English if not Old English. I dunno, but one thing is for sure. There is nothing shakesperean in any of his comic books. He doesn't speak poetry with similes, metaphors and all that other stuff they do in Shakespeare.

[Vartha]

Yeah JMS has pretty much proven Thor sells better without the Shakespeare.
JMS based the newer Thor on Aragorn in LotR, for those who didn't know.

[Franklin Richards]

Oh please. The only thing JMS has proven is that he can't get magazines out on time.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[The Ace of Knaves]

Not full on Shakespearean.

But keep the thee's and thou's and aye's in there. You take them away, you take away the possibility of some bad ass lines.

As I said in the other Hopkins thread, anyone who says they don't want to hear lines such as "I would have words with thee" or "I shall smite thee" etc cannot call themselves true Thor fans.

[Webhead2006]

and did some crazy stuff with spiderman(though Joey Q is to blam too)

[Aeltri]

As long as it they don't sound like this I'll be ok :cwink::

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6y-NQbScF8s&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6y-NQbScF8s&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

On a serious note, I think a somewhat archaic vocabulary and a vaguely New England-ish accent would work pretty well. British accents just tend to be overdone so that even Greek gods all sound like they attended the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art :whatever:.

[Kurosawa]

Not full on, but elegant language definitely. Although who could have issue with a "I say thee nay!"

[Panthro]

Yeah JMS has pretty much proven Thor sells better without the Shakespeare.
JMS based the newer Thor on Aragorn in LotR, for those who didn't know.
Really? Heh. I did not know that.

I just hope they don't have Thor trying to talk "hip" at any point in the film, I hate that.

[Timstuff]

;17681216']Eventhough 99.9999996% of these people have never read Shakespeare :o

I read Othello.

[Agent 194]

Well Shakespearean, Elizabethan, King's English,....or when you just plain get down to it, Stan Lee's PT Barnum like talent of making it noticeable and different, all the while giving a great show. What ever we're going to call it (for those nitpicking the proper label - I think we all know what it means)....I still think it'd be great to have some of it.

1. Especially with the actors involved now.

2. The director at the helm.

3. And let's face it...the subject matter. In all it's over top Wagnerian operatic godly flair. I mean, really....

I'll post my initial thought on Hopkins casting now

(now in the proper thread - you sticklers for detail)

Now C'MON! You've got to have that Shakespearean English now! (I still think it's a mistake not to use it. And it's the only thing I'm disappointed with about the movie so far) It just screams for it now with the addition of Hopkins. I mean, can't you hear it?!

'Yay verily, I say unto thee'....

[Dragon]

I'm not for turning this into an organics versus mechanical webshooters debate, but I'd love to see these guys perform Shakespearean English. There's no arguing about what makes sense. There's no sense in Thor speaking English at all. This isn't the Norse myth of Thor. It's Marvel's adaptation of Thor. The style of speech is part of the presentation and certainly made Thor unique. I was 8 years old when I started reading the comic and had no trouble picking up on what they were saying. Neither did any of the other kids, and we'd never read Shakespeare or any such writing.

As for JMS, he hasn't proven that Thor is better without the dialogue, only that he writes interesting enough stories that people want to follow them regardless of the style of dialogue.

[HappyPalooza]

To be honest the main thing that turned me off of Thor was the Shakespearean dialogue. Glad they're not using it. Though I have to admit, someone posted the page with that Ultron quote and it was pretty damn cool.

[TheCorpulent1]

As for JMS, he hasn't proven that Thor is better without the dialogue, only that he writes interesting enough stories that people want to follow them regardless of the style of dialogue.
I feel that's true of any of Thor's great writers. The "thees" and "thous" have come and gone and come back again and gone away again at least 3 or 4 times that I can recall, but their presence or lack has never really affected me if the writer is otherwise doing a good job. Personally, I think the dialogue tends to flow better without them (and, of course, you never have a problem with writers who have no idea how to use archaic pronouns--that's a big pet peeve of mine), but I can read and understand Thor either way.

[[A]]

http://www.mainstrike.com/mstservices/handy/insult.html :oldrazz:

[The Ace of Knaves]

haha that's great :D

"Thou infectious bat-fowling apple-john!"

[MikeFrost]

How bout a mix? Asgard gets the Shakespearean dialogue but Earth gets normal dialect.

For the lulz.

[TheCorpulent1]

That'd annoy me. Don Blake once told Sif to "turn off" her "Asgardian-speak" or something like that and that bugged me. The way the gods talk shouldn't be a mere affectation to be turned on and off at a whim. That makes it feel cheap to me.

[Triad]

Ya know, either way would be fine with me. From reading the comics as a kid, I am a little endeared to Thor speaking like that - just as long as they don't take it over the top with the "Thee"s & "Thou"s, etc. If they didn't have it somewhat I'd be slightly disappointed, but I admit that it probably would turn off some viewers if they go full-on Shakespearean English. A few lines here & there couldn't hurt though.

[TheCorpulent1]

Personally, I'd be happy with modern pronouns but a few antiquated words like "calumny" and "ignominy" thrown in.

[daderade]

i agree and i think that is how its going to be to keep some of the classic feel for the fans, but modern enough not to alienate anyone

[Vartha]

Really? Heh. I did not know that.

I just hope they don't have Thor trying to talk "hip" at any point in the film, I hate that.
Can't find the article any more, we had it in the Old Official Thor threads in toward the beginning, but, I'm sure those links are broken now.

[Vartha]

Oh please. The only thing JMS has proven is that he can't get magazines out on time.


:thing: :doom: :thing:
lol ok ok JMS can't get a book out on time but when he did it was an amazing Thor story, we Thor fans had to wait but the stories were great in MY book.

[HappyPalooza]

Can't find the article any more, we had it in the Old Official Thor threads in toward the beginning, but, I'm sure those links are broken now.

I recall MTV putting up an article that was taken down within the hour that I could find any trace of for the life of me that had a list of things Feige told them at Comic-Con about Thor. There was one about Cap that coincided with it that was just as ill-fated.

But anywho, the article said a bunch of promising stuff. One was there'd be no lame goofy scene where Thor is trying to work an iPhone and Asgard will be technologically advanced in their own regard, so Thor won't be talking to a lamppost for five minutes.

Another thing I remember is them citing that it's 70% Asgard and 30% Earth, but earlier in the year they said it was primarily on Earth, so it could have changed again by now. Too bad I can't remember anything else from it really, it was a lot of stuff that was pretty informative.

[Chewy]

The Thor stuff you are referencing is here
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=17018019&postcount=3

The Cap stuff is here
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=17018007&postcount=1806

[HappyPalooza]

Thanks a ton. I actually decided to dig after reading that and found the Thor stuff in that thread and was about to check the Cap thread, but you saved me a buncha time.

edit: Rereading all that **** is so promising. I like how isn't afraid to admit Fox ****ed up Dr. Doom and he acknowledges the stupid fish-out-of-water jokes. Feige's pretty good at getting you jacked up, whereas most studio people worry you by using terms like "it's going to be badass and violent" (used to describe both Wolverine and Punisher: War Zone). They're all talkers, but Feige seems a little more genuine and confident than the others and the directors all seem to love him. I'm pretty sure I've read very positive comments from Favreau, Letterier, and Branagh.