Cap's Power Level

[Infinity9999x]

I had the idea from this thread over the long conversation Roch and I were having over in the costume thread.

Basically, it comes down to the thoughts on the power level of Cap, either Ultimate or 616. Now, I personally wouldn't mind if they went with an Ultimate level Cap, but some don't like this idea (and I can understand why.)

However, once Roach and I started discussing the powers of 616 Cap, I came across some interesting info.

Cap is commonly called a "peak" human. A person who, in all areas of athletics, achieves the maximum a human body could do. Now, the only real difference of Ultimate Cap and 616 Cap is their strength level. Ultimate Cap is listed as being able to lift 2 tons (4000lbs). Besides that though, Ultimate Cap is only listed as being able to run 35mph, and have quickness, agility, and reflexes greater than any Olympic athlete. Something 616 Cap also shares.

Now, if we take into account the "peak human" powers of Cap, I found that he may actually not be much different from his Ultimate counterpart at all. The current world record for the bench press is 1075lbs, or a little more than half a ton. Now, going off the fact that Cap should be "peak human" he should be able to bench this much. However, this is only bench pressing. In the stats of Ultimate Cap, it only said he could lift up to 2tons. It didn't specify if he was only upper body lifting, or using his legs.

If we assume that this stat is a full body lift (allowing the use of his legs and back into the lift) then 616 Cap is obviously going to be able to lift more than 1000lbs. This could put him closer to 1,500lbs, maybe more and if you add in the adrenaline factor, it could bump him up to 2000lbs or 2,500lbs, and again possibly more.

It's not out of the realm of possibility, going off the numbers we've established, that Cap could possibly reach the 2ton mark as his Ultimate counterpart has, if we really go by the numbers of the "peak" humans of today.

So in short, what do you guys think? I know there is a big pro and anti Ultimate group on here, but it might just be possible that 616 Cap isn't actually that much weaker than his Ultimate counterpart.

[Rage]

I think based on what we've seen in TIH that Cap will have "Super" strength and will be more than human perfection. If they went with Ultimate Cap's power levels I would be fine... I just don't want to see the Super-Running anymore...that ***** is goofy!!

[roach]

I didnt see any evidence of super strength or speed in TIH. Go google Usain Bolt and see how fast he runs and imagine him running next to people running at average speed

[3dman27]

tho it is panned the cap tv movie had an answer for this
the serum unlockedthe full latent ability of steve rogers to 100%ofhuman abilites, in the 1940's that meant olympic levels today it means super-human

[roach]

I love the tv show...but he was pretty much a male tv Wonder woman

[Infinity9999x]

I love the tv show...but he was pretty much a male tv Wonder woman

Well really, as I said above, it's not that improbable to think that 616 Cap may actually reach Ultimate Cap level.

I mean, look at the stuff those guys can do in the Strongman competitions. I saw guys pressing a jeep. And that's just a normal person.

Really, when we think about this, if Cap can achieve 100% of human potential in all athletic areas, that means that not only will his upper body be able to lift the maximum amount of weight possible, his lower body will be able to as well.

The guy who benched 1075lbs probably can't squat that much, because he probably works on his upper body much more. Cap will have the combined strength of a top lifter in both, and going off that, it's not impossible to think that he could reach the 2ton area.

[roach]

Well really, as I said above, it's not that improbable to think that 616 Cap may actually reach Ultimate Cap level.

I mean, look at the stuff those guys can do in the Strongman competitions. I saw guys pressing a jeep. And that's just a normal person.

Really, when we think about this, if Cap can achieve 100% of human potential in all athletic areas, that means that not only will his upper body be able to lift the maximum amount of weight possible, his lower body will be able to as well.

The guy who benched 1075lbs probably can't squat that much, because he probably works on his upper body much more. Cap will have the combined strength of a top lifter in both, and going off that, it's not impossible to think that he could reach the 2ton area.

your use of common sense and logic has swayed me...I agree

[Infinity9999x]

your use of common sense and logic has swayed me...I agree

Cool :up:

It's interesting, because I'm kind of a health fitness nut, so when I started reading up on the peak human thing, I started thinking.

Originally, his stats from way back when Cap was conceived, they had Cap being able to bench around 500lbs to 800lbs, which, at the time was thought to be the limit a human body could bench without being "superhuman." But since people's abilities have increased dramatically since then, it stands to reason that Cap should meet them, since he is the peak human.

It was just interesting to me to see how much humans have been able to accomplish in terms of strength over the years.

[roach]

this should be Cap.....
1)Mike Tyson's punch
2)Usain Bolt's speed
3)Strongest man's strength
4)Agility of Tony Jaa

wrapped in the body of a UFC Champion fighter

[Infinity9999x]

this should be Cap.....
1)Mike Tyson's punch
2)Usain Bolt's speed
3)Strongest man's strength
4)Agility of Tony Jaa

wrapped in the body of a UFC Champion fighter

And also, when you think about it, each of these people had to train extensively in their very specialized area of athletics to get to the ability they are at.

Cap possesses the top abilities of all of them. Now, every time you do something like punch, or do a sprint, you're using more than just the obvious muscle group. For example, having a stronger upper body actually helps you in a sprint.

So, now that Cap not only has Usain Bolt's speed, but also the power of the strongest man in the world, he may actually be faster than Usain Bolt. In short, his amazing abilities in all facets would word together, and may make him actually a bit above normal human levels in a sprint/lift/agility/ ect.

[roach]

yes you are right he should punch harder than Tyson and be faster than Bolt

[Superhero 101]

From what i have seen he should be really agile fast and strong maybe like green goblin strong from Spiderman 1.

[Webhead2006]

should be interesting to see how they go about this.

[Drakon]

Just to get it out of the way early:

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!

[Shockdingo]

Wow, great breaking down of the stats, I didn't even think of things like Mr. Bolt's speed or the top level benchpressing guy. I always hear "peak human" and say well it's the absolute upper limit of what humans can do without being Spider-man, and then I forget that "normal" humans can be pretty darn spectacular in their own right.

[3dman27]

this should be Cap.....
1)Mike Tyson's punch
2)Usain Bolt's speed
3)Strongest man's strength
4)Agility of Tony Jaa

wrapped in the body of a UFC Champion fighter

i see the logic

[roach]

Just to get it out of the way early:

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!

not to derail or anything but I love your sig

also Bolt set another record today 200 meters in 19.19 seconds

[Infinity9999x]

Wow, great breaking down of the stats, I didn't even think of things like Mr. Bolt's speed or the top level benchpressing guy. I always hear "peak human" and say well it's the absolute upper limit of what humans can do without being Spider-man, and then I forget that "normal" humans can be pretty darn spectacular in their own right.

Thank you:yay: And I thought the same thing. It was interesting, as I started looking the stats up, to see how far we've come in terms of athletic records. It's logical to see why they originally had Cap at only being able to bench press 500 to 800ish pounds, because at the time, that was what was thought to be the most a human body could do. It's kind of cool seeing how things have changed, like way back when people thought it was impossible to run a sub 4 minute mile.

But really, when you take into account that Cap should be the pinnacle of human achievement in all these areas, you realize how really powerful the guy could be. Sure, he still can't lift 10 tons like Spidey, but it's still pretty darn impressive.

Just to get it out of the way early:

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!

Haha, man what a great show. They should make a movie of it....without Fox:csad:

not to derail or anything but I love your sig

also Bolt set another record today 200 meters in 19.19 seconds

Holy crap. That makes Cap one fast man.

[roach]

I didnt really look into what Cap should be capable of doing until I started writing my fan fic about his training and his first mission (Coming Soon Codename:Captain America...nice plug)...things like being ambidexterous, photographic memory, higher developed mind which means he can learn complex tasks in a fraction of the time it takes normal folks to learn.

[Spider-Vader]

this should be Cap.....
1)Mike Tyson's punch
2)Usain Bolt's speed
3)Strongest man's strength
4)Agility of Tony Jaa

wrapped in the body of a UFC Champion fighter

:up:

That's exactly what he should be... except a little better in all of those.

[chaoticreign]

Technically a peak human can't bench 1075. That world record was an equiped lift. He was wearing a bench shirt which isn't the same as a raw lift. And anyone who thinks the guy that did it must just work upper body is ignorant to the entire sport of powerlifting.

Powerlifting is competed with 3 lifts. These are the bench press, the deadlift, and the squat. And the world records all hover around the same 1000lb-ish limit. You're just drawing random conclusions to try and power cap up. And there is no "adrenaline factor" when we're talking about weights like this. When you're under something that heavy it isn't exactly a dull experience.

And regardless, I think Cap should be around an 600-800 raw bench. Cap really isn't about feats of strength. He isn't spiderman, he won't be lifting any cars up over his head. He's a top tier human. Acrobatics, agility, and skill combined with peak strength and perfect technique. Not super strength or any other crap.

[Aesop Rocks]

Just to get it out of the way early:

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!

Thank you.

I think what we saw in TIH was about right, maybe amped up a bit.

[Infinity9999x]

Technically a peak human can't bench 1075. That world record was an equiped lift. He was wearing a bench shirt which isn't the same as a raw lift. And anyone who thinks the guy that did it must just work upper body is ignorant to the entire sport of powerlifting.

Powerlifting is competed with 3 lifts. These are the bench press, the deadlift, and the squat. And the world records all hover around the same 1000lb-ish limit. You're just drawing random conclusions to try and power cap up. And there is no "adrenaline factor" when we're talking about weights like this. When you're under something that heavy it isn't exactly a dull experience.

And regardless, I think Cap should be around an 600-800 raw bench. Cap really isn't about feats of strength. He isn't spiderman, he won't be lifting any cars up over his head. He's a top tier human. Acrobatics, agility, and skill combined with peak strength and perfect technique. Not super strength or any other crap.

Ah, you're right, I forgot about bench shirts. Looking at it now, it seems the highest raw bench is 715.

And if you read my post, I never said he didn't work his lower body. I said he would obviously work his upper body more than his lower body, because you would have to if you want to reach those kind of numbers in the bench. Now, of course you can't simply leave you lower body, since when benching, or in any workout for that matter, you use your entire body.

But, if you honestly think the guy who set the world bench record worked out his legs as much as his upper body...well, I'm sorry, but you would be the one who's ignorant. To thus enhance my point,

Kennelly trains as often as 10 times in a week and hits some type of bench press training 7-8 times a week. Kennelly began lifting with his legs only because his bench had plateaued due to a weaker lower body. Ryan has had as much as 1,300 lb (590 kg) on the bar for a bench (5 board press failed).

Kennelly happens to be the guy who set the current bench record.

And thank you for the information about power-lifting, but I've power-lifted myself, so I know how it works.

And what do you mean there's no adrenaline factor? Of course your adrenaline helps you. When you have an audience and your adrenline get's pumping under those weights you're definitely going to be able to lift more than if you were alone in your basement.

Now, while a peak human may not be able to hit 1000lbs without a bench shirt, Cap certainly could, because, as I've said before, Cap is peak human in all areas. Kennelly focused only on a specific upper body lift, and he eventually became the best in that lift. Cap has the upper body strength of Kennelly, as well as the strength of every other peak power-lifter in his best weight class.

Since every workout draws power from all parts of your body, this is going to allow Cap to lift more than any of these power-lifters could in their designated area. Imagine if Kennelly had the lower body strength of the best squatter in the world, can you imagine how much his bench would go up?

That's why Cap can reach superhuman levels. Essentially, when you take a human, and make them reach their athletic potential in all specific areas of athletics (and it usually takes people a lifetime to reach their 100% potential in one area) it's going to make him more powerful than any one person could be, because each area of his abilities complements the other.

He's going to be faster than Bolt because he has the raw power of all the best power-lifters in the world, while still retaining amazing flexibility. He's going to be able to lift more than the best bench-presser in the world, because he will also have peak strength in all other muscle groups in his body, ect. ect.

[Turtles]

And regardless, I think Cap should be around an 600-800 raw bench. Cap really isn't about feats of strength. He isn't spiderman, he won't be lifting any cars up over his head. He's a top tier human. Acrobatics, agility, and skill combined with peak strength and perfect technique. Not super strength or any other crap.

Agreed, no more than 800 pounds. I would really hate to see people take away the emphasis that has always been placed on Cap's brains, agility, acrobatic skills, shield etc., just so they can turn him into another boring hero with super strength. We have enough heroes who rely solely on their super strength, we don't need one more.

[Infinity9999x]

Agreed, no more than 800 pounds. I would really hate to see people take away the emphasis that has always been placed on Cap's brains, agility, acrobatic skills, shield etc., just so they can turn him into another boring hero with super strength. We have enough heroes who rely solely on their super strength, we don't need one more.

How, in any part of this thread, have I expressed the idea that I want to downplay Cap's intelligence in favor of his abilities? I'm simply pointing out the fact that Cap's abilities may be higher than we previously.

[roach]

agreed

[Slipeor]

Cap needs to have super powers, like Ultimate Cap or even more.

First off, if Cap is going to be as strong as a powerlifter (for the "press 800 lbs" or 1075 lbs or whatever), he would need to be built like one. You can't be 6'2" and 220 lbs (or whatever his stats are) and bench 1000 lbs. You need to weight 300 lbs if you want to have enough muscle to do that. And at that weight, good luck having any endurance.

However Cap was first written needs to be thrown out. He should be superhuman. A human a the pinnacle of perfection would still get tired after fighting 20 guys for 5 minutes. Go watch a UFC fight and see how even the best conditioned guys are winded if they go all out for a round agianst ONE guy. They have to pace themselves or they gas. I can buy the fittest guy in the world going all out for 5 minutes against one guy, but not a whole pack of bad guys.

Sure we suspend disbelief in comics all the time. So let's just suspend it more and make him super-strong. The bottom line is that Spider-Man (lift 10 tons) shouldn't really be stronger than Cap.

[Anubis]

He shouldn't?

[jab1118]

Cap needs to have super powers, like Ultimate Cap or even more.

First off, if Cap is going to be as strong as a powerlifter (for the "press 800 lbs" or 1075 lbs or whatever), he would need to be built like one. You can't be 6'2" and 220 lbs (or whatever his stats are) and bench 1000 lbs. You need to weight 300 lbs if you want to have enough muscle to do that. And at that weight, good luck having any endurance.

However Cap was first written needs to be thrown out. He should be superhuman. A human a the pinnacle of perfection would still get tired after fighting 20 guys for 5 minutes. Go watch a UFC fight and see how even the best conditioned guys are winded if they go all out for a round agianst ONE guy. They have to pace themselves or they gas. I can buy the fittest guy in the world going all out for 5 minutes against one guy, but not a whole pack of bad guys.
.

I agree i always thought that Cap was portrayed much more pwoerful than his powers were explained. The things he does are already better than human potential anyway so why not just go the extra mile and go ultimate power level. Or maybe even somewhere in between. Its not realy important to label how powerful he is anyway, just have a scientist say this will increase all of your abilities in every way to a superhuman level. Then just go from there

[roach]

Cap needs to have super powers, like Ultimate Cap or even more.

First off, if Cap is going to be as strong as a powerlifter (for the "press 800 lbs" or 1075 lbs or whatever), he would need to be built like one. You can't be 6'2" and 220 lbs (or whatever his stats are) and bench 1000 lbs. You need to weight 300 lbs if you want to have enough muscle to do that. And at that weight, good luck having any endurance.

However Cap was first written needs to be thrown out. He should be superhuman. A human a the pinnacle of perfection would still get tired after fighting 20 guys for 5 minutes. Go watch a UFC fight and see how even the best conditioned guys are winded if they go all out for a round agianst ONE guy. They have to pace themselves or they gas. I can buy the fittest guy in the world going all out for 5 minutes against one guy, but not a whole pack of bad guys.

Sure we suspend disbelief in comics all the time. So let's just suspend it more and make him super-strong. The bottom line is that Spider-Man (lift 10 tons) shouldn't really be stronger than Cap.

UFC fighters arent the pinnacle of human perfection. Part of the SSS is the ability for Cap to have near limitless stamina

[Rage]

I think that Cap should appear to have Superhuman strength and stamina ect... but infact, he is just the perfect human. Without the limiting effects of lactic acid and fatigue, he would seem superhuman.

[Infinity9999x]

Cap needs to have super powers, like Ultimate Cap or even more.

First off, if Cap is going to be as strong as a powerlifter (for the "press 800 lbs" or 1075 lbs or whatever), he would need to be built like one. You can't be 6'2" and 220 lbs (or whatever his stats are) and bench 1000 lbs. You need to weight 300 lbs if you want to have enough muscle to do that. And at that weight, good luck having any endurance.

However Cap was first written needs to be thrown out. He should be superhuman. A human a the pinnacle of perfection would still get tired after fighting 20 guys for 5 minutes. Go watch a UFC fight and see how even the best conditioned guys are winded if they go all out for a round agianst ONE guy. They have to pace themselves or they gas. I can buy the fittest guy in the world going all out for 5 minutes against one guy, but not a whole pack of bad guys.

Sure we suspend disbelief in comics all the time. So let's just suspend it more and make him super-strong. The bottom line is that Spider-Man (lift 10 tons) shouldn't really be stronger than Cap.

Well, part of the psudeo-science of Cap, and in comics in general, is that he is still peak human while retaining a somewhat normal build. I imagine Cap similar to the build of Lebron James without being 6'8.

And you're missing the point about the whole "peak-human" thing. Cap is the peak human in All Areas of Athletics So that means not only can he lift an amazing amount, he's also incredibly fast, has amazing quickness, agility, and stamina.

Also, Cap doesn't get tired, because part of the S.Soldier serum is eliminating or severely limiting the lactic acid buildup in his body. So he could go all out against and entire pack of bad guys without getting tired.

[Timstuff]

Something to consider is that we don't know what the potential "peak" of human performance is in any particular field. Should it be assumed that a person can't be faster than Usain Bolt, or that 1000 pounds is the most a man can bench press? The fact that we honestly don't know, coupled with the fact that Captain America is a sci-fi / fantasy story give rise to the possibility of him having abilities that we normal folks would likely consider to be "super human." Suppose that the peak of human performance, in terms of all manner of bodily strength means he could toss a car if necessary?

If he truly is at the peak of human conditioning, then it's not far fetched that he can exceed the records held by the world's greatest athletes. First of all, seeing how far athletics have come in the last century it seems foolish to assume that the records currently held are the true peak of human conditioning. Secondly, Captain America is at the peak of ALL forms of muscle strength, not just a few like most athletes are, and since they all work together it means even more strength to each, as mentioned in a previous post. And lastly, he is at the peak of human endurance. Usain Bolt may be a ridiculously fast sprinter, but how would he hold up running that speed for an hour? Captain America should be able to do it, and still have plenty of strength leftover to kicks some bad guy ass.

[Infinity9999x]

Something to consider is that we don't know what the potential "peak" of human performance is in any particular field. Should it be assumed that a person can't be faster than Usain Bolt, or that 1000 pounds is the most a man can bench press? The fact that we honestly don't know, coupled with the fact that Captain America is a sci-fi / fantasy story give rise to the possibility of him having abilities that we normal folks would likely consider to be "super human." Suppose that the peak of human performance, in terms of all manner of bodily strength means he could toss a car if necessary?

If he truly is at the peak of human conditioning, then it's not far fetched that he can exceed the records held by the world's greatest athletes. First of all, seeing how far athletics have come in the last century it seems foolish to assume that the records currently held are the true peak of human conditioning. Secondly, Captain America is at the peak of ALL forms of muscle strength, not just a few like most athletes are, and since they all work together it means even more strength to each, as mentioned in a previous post. And lastly, he is at the peak of human endurance. Usain Bolt may be a ridiculously fast sprinter, but how would he hold up running that speed for an hour? Captain America should be able to do it, and still have plenty of strength leftover to kicks some bad guy ass.

Exactly. I used to think, as many still do, that Cap was just the most athletic a person could be, but when you take into account that he's at the very pinnacle a person could be athletically in all areas of athletics, and that being at that level for every ability will thus strengthen the other abilities, he really is "super-human," because it's impossible for the strongest man in the world to also be the fastest. He'll simply have too much muscle mass on his body to move that quick, but Cap can.

And you also raise another very interesting point. Cap's stats are listed at being able to lift around 800lbs, because at the time, that was what was thought to be the maximum a human body could lift. however, now that we have people who are squatting 1000 to 1300lbs, it's obviously possible to go higher. We still don't know what the "peak" is in each individual area of athletics.

[3dman27]

try describing caps powersas 100%capacity will that work

[Anubis]

How about he just be as strong as he needs to be to accomplish whatever task it is they come up with and we call it a day?

[Infinity9999x]

How about he just be as strong as he needs to be to accomplish whatever task it is they come up with and we call it a day?


Well, obviously, yes. Any fictional character is going to have sufficient abilities to overcome the obstacles in his way. That's the nature of storytelling.

However, if we didn't like discussing topics that are essentially meaningless these boards wouldn't exist would they:o:oldrazz:

[Timstuff]

After watching Nostalgia Critic's review of the 90's Cap movie, I can't say I'd be against them making the movie version of Cap more "super." I mean, in that movie he was downright incompetent, and there was scarcely anything super about him.

[SpiderByte]

Just to get it out of the way early:

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!

Curse you and your foresight!

[Rage]

I think you need to assume that the peak human performance (in any given discipline) has yet to be reached... so its safe to say that Cap will be both faster than Bolt and a better swimmer than Phelps and stronger than the current world record holder. HE IS THE PERFECT HUMAN....

and for the record... it is called the "Super" soldier serium for a reason. He should be a faster healer, slower aging, stronger, faster, able to hold his breath longer ect... than any one "normal" person in the world (whether they are the top at their discipline in the world or not)

[roach]

add to the fact that Cap has a rigorous workout regiment that would explain him being faster and stronger than he originally was while in non superhuman levels

[Rage]

I think that the potential locked inside the human body is SUPERHUMAN. Look at old ladies that lift cars to save loved ones...everyone's heard about the huge adrenaline boost s the body can produce in times of stress.

So is it really that crazy to think that the "perfect human" would also be able to tap into some AMAZING levels of power when his adrenaline kicks in?

[Infinity9999x]

I think that the potential locked inside the human body is SUPERHUMAN. Look at old ladies that lift cars to save loved ones...everyone's heard about the huge adrenaline boost s the body can produce in times of stress.

So is it really that crazy to think that the "perfect human" would also be able to tap into some AMAZING levels of power when his adrenaline kicks in?

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if Cap reached levels of a low level superhuman with his adrenaline going strong. I mean, heck, if an old lady can lift a car, imagine what Cap could go in a stressful situation.

[Anubis]

Lift an old lady lifting a car.

[Drakon]

I totally imagined that.

Also, Nubs, you'll like this. I was playing MUA2 with my buddy, and we went back to the White Star hub, and he was looking for the special conversations, so I told him to take Captain America, and go talk to Anubis....er, I mean Hercules.

[Anubis]

Ha!

[Drakon]

I figured you'd appreciate that.

[Anubis]

I'm so awesome, I permeate into peoples psyche and molest their cerebellum with my awesomeness.

[Infinity9999x]

I'm not gunna lie man, every time I see a pic of Hercules I automatically think of your avvy too.

[Infinity9999x]

I'm not gunna lie man, every time I see a pic of Hercules I automatically think of your avvy too.

[Chris B]

I don't think there would be a problem if they boosted Cap's power level to superhuman levels but still kept it pretty low key, at least compared to the likes of Thor and the Hulk.

[roach]

he's not supposed to be superhuman...go back and look at Incredible Hulk....all the moves that Blonsky had fighting the Hulk on the SSS is how Cap is going to move...nothing superhuman about what he did

[Anubis]

What Blonsky had wasn't the SSS. It was a failed attempt. They can do whatever they want with the real SSS cuz it hasn't been shown yet.

[roach]

i would rather not see Cap doing something outside the range of his capabilities

[Anubis]

Me neither, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

[Infinity9999x]

I don't think there would be a problem if they boosted Cap's power level to superhuman levels but still kept it pretty low key, at least compared to the likes of Thor and the Hulk.

Well really, the whole point of this thread was the question I had that Marvel may have actually accurately put Cap's power level at a lower level then it should be.

As I said before, when you take into account that Cap is peak human in every area of athletics, the fact that every separate muscle group of his body is at the pinnacle of human perfection, he would actually have capabilities much higher than those of a peak human in their specialized athletic event.

Cap will be able to bench more than the best bench-presser in the world, since not only will his upper body be as strong as it could possibly be, his legs and core will be as well. He'll be faster than the fastest sprinter because he'll also have the power and strength of the strongest power-lifter, ect. ect.

So given this info, it wouldn't be crazy to think that 616 Cap could be close or at least closer to Ultimate Cap power levels than we thought. And when you throw in the adrenaline factor, there's really no telling what he could do.

However, even at his peak he would still be relatively low on the power level, next to people like Thor or the Hulk. Even if he could get to the point where he could lift 1 to 2 tons, it's not going to do much against someone who could lift 30 to 100.

[Webhead2006]

well i would like to see with emil in tih it was a peak at what we could expect for steve rogers in captain america, though they may make him a little more powerful.

[LastSunrise1981]

I'm still new to learning about Captain America. I've read quite a few comics, watched some of the cartoons, and so forth. But can someone explain to me the concept of Cap's abilities?

From what I understand he's the perfect specimen. So he's essentially a human being that can do extrodinary things. Obviously he's not powerful like Hulk, Thor, Spider-Man, and Superman when it comes to speed and strength.

But I've always been confused about his abilities. So in a sense he's like Batman in the top physical peak department? Because I would think certain villains would wipe the floor with Cap.

[3dman27]

he's supposed to be peak human,which he WAS when created in ww2,however subsequently super-humans appeared that are more powerful causing the power level problem discussed in this thread .
a universal tv movie pilot described his abilites as 100%full human potential,while the ULTIMATES series made him super human from the moment steve underwent the treatments

[Timstuff]

I don't really have a preference, personally, however I would like to make a point that I am not against Ultimate Cap-levels of strength. I'm not sure if the 616 quite has the "wow" factor necessary for a movie, since after being spoiled by the likes of Spider-Man seeing a guy who is just really athletic may come across as a bit underwhelming (seeing as that describes most action movie protagonists already). That doesn't mean that they have to show him as being like Spider-Man but without the sticky fingers and webs, but as for things like seeing him lift cars, I have a sort of "why not" attitude. If the premise of the movie is that it's like Saving Private Ryan if there was a superhero present, then I don't see the harm in actually allowing said hero to be truly super.

[Infinity9999x]

I'm still new to learning about Captain America. I've read quite a few comics, watched some of the cartoons, and so forth. But can someone explain to me the concept of Cap's abilities?

From what I understand he's the perfect specimen. So he's essentially a human being that can do extrodinary things. Obviously he's not powerful like Hulk, Thor, Spider-Man, and Superman when it comes to speed and strength.

But I've always been confused about his abilities. So in a sense he's like Batman in the top physical peak department? Because I would think certain villains would wipe the floor with Cap.

Cap is different than Batman. While Bats is simply a supremely top level and top trained individual, Captain America is "peak human" in all aspects of his athletic ability.

So that means that Cap will be as fast as it is possible for a human body to be, as strong as it is possible for a human body to be, as quick as it is possible for a human body to be ect. ect.

Now, when the writers first came up with this, they gave Cap stats that reflected what the "peak" humans of the day could do. For example, they lifted Cap at being able to be able to bench around 600lbs.

However, this isn't completely accurate, because one thing the writers didn't take into account is that the human body is one functioning machine, and that each muscle group supports the other.

So, Cap would actually be able to bench more then the best bench-presser in the world, because not only is his upper body at it's peak strength level, his legs are also as strong as the strongest lower body lifter in the world as well. Cap would actually be faster than the fastest sprinter in the world, because his legs have the added power of the strongest lower body lifter in the world, ect. ect.

Each thing builds off the other, giving him added power. So really, 616 Cap is at a much higher level then the writers had him listed at.

And Timstuff, I more or less agree with you. I don't mind it if they give Cap Ultimate level strength, in fact, the point of this thread was to show that 616 Cap could be substantially more powerful than what his listings are at.

[Rage]

I agree that Cap should be significantly stronger, faster, ect... than any olympic class athlete (Batman) because he is a "Super-human" He's a low level super human, but super human non the less.

Rage

[GhostPoet]

He should become stronger depending on how loud church choir boys can sing the star spangled banner!

=P

[daderade]

well 616 Cap said once that he was as strong as "half a platoon of fighting men". that is 10 men....approximately the same strength as ultimate cap. Btw, peak human, is approximately 6 times what you could normally do. Adrenaline closes that gap quite a bit, and if Cap is cabable of lifting 1000 lbs (as a human "could" do) with his muscle structure....multiply that by 6(approximately) and that is PEAK human.

[Infinity9999x]

well 616 Cap said once that he was as strong as "half a platoon of fighting men". that is 10 men....approximately the same strength as ultimate cap. Btw, peak human, is approximately 6 times what you could normally do. Adrenaline closes that gap quite a bit, and if Cap is cabable of lifting 1000 lbs (as a human "could" do) with his muscle structure....multiply that by 6(approximately) and that is PEAK human.

Where are you getting that? I've never read it anywhere. Not that I mind really, since I'm all for a more powerful Cap, but there's nothing I've read that's stated Peak human is 6times as powerful as a regular human.

[daderade]

my college biology prof.....however it WAS a community college...so that may be wrong.

[LastSunrise1981]

See that's where I get confused. Perhaps I need it broken down or maybe someone can explain it better to me?

Okay, concept wise or physically wise I should say. How fast or how long should a human in peak condition should run? What should he lift in order to be compared to peak physical condition?

So in a sense when Cap is running he should be like an olympic sprinter and for strength wise a powerlifter?

[3dman27]

i think you've got it last sunrise

[Infinity9999x]

See that's where I get confused. Perhaps I need it broken down or maybe someone can explain it better to me?

Okay, concept wise or physically wise I should say. How fast or how long should a human in peak condition should run? What should he lift in order to be compared to peak physical condition?

So in a sense when Cap is running he should be like an olympic sprinter and for strength wise a powerlifter?

He should be as fast as the fastest Olympic sprinter and as strong as the strongest powerlifter.

However, as I've been saying, one thing that we, and the original 616 writers didn't take into account is that the body is one functioning unit. Even though it doesn't seem like it would help, if you have a stronger lower body you'll be able to bench more.

So since Cap will have the leg strength of the strongest lower body lifter in addition to the upper body strength of the strongest bench-presser, he'll actually be able to lift more than the best bench-presser in the world.

He'll also be faster than the fastest sprinter, because he'll have the added power of being as strong as the best powerlifter in the world. Ect. ect.

Essentially, each ability works together with the others to elevate Cap to essentially a low level superhuman.

[Diamondhead]

I think based on what we've seen in TIH that Cap will have "Super" strength and will be more than human perfection. If they went with Ultimate Cap's power levels I would be fine... I just don't want to see the Super-Running anymore...that ***** is goofy!!Hey they pull it off pretty nicely in the first new bionic woman pilot
1978 superman ,the scene with Clark racing against the train was goofy.
as for Smallville !
this is getting ridiculous.

[jab1118]

He should be as fast as the fastest Olympic sprinter and as strong as the strongest powerlifter.

However, as I've been saying, one thing that we, and the original 616 writers didn't take into account is that the body is one functioning unit. Even though it doesn't seem like it would help, if you have a stronger lower body you'll be able to bench more.

So since Cap will have the leg strength of the strongest lower body lifter in addition to the upper body strength of the strongest bench-presser, he'll actually be able to lift more than the best bench-presser in the world.

He'll also be faster than the fastest sprinter, because he'll have the added power of being as strong as the best powerlifter in the world. Ect. ect.

Essentially, each ability works together with the others to elevate Cap to essentially a low level superhuman.

See here is where i disagree in order for someone to be the fastest sprinter there body would need to built a certain way. And if you wanted to be a power lifter you would need to have a different build all together. So peak human abilities in all areas isnt atainable cause a power lifter by body type could not be fast and vice versa. So one doesnt really lend itself to helping the other. So since Caps abilities arent really going to be based on biology anyway so there really is no reason to try to figure out what a peak human could actually achieve. Just say hes super human, I would lean towards more powerful leave it at that and lets get to some nazi smashing

[Diamondhead]

I'm still new to learning about Captain America. I've read quite a few comics, watched some of the cartoons, and so forth. But can someone explain to me the concept of Cap's abilities?

From what I understand he's the perfect specimen. So he's essentially a human being that can do extrodinary things. Obviously he's not powerful like Hulk, Thor, Spider-Man, and Superman when it comes to speed and strength.

But I've always been confused about his abilities. So in a sense he's like Batman in the top physical peak department? Because I would think certain villains would wipe the floor with Cap.
indeed cap is not as strong as the hulk or any other heavy weight like Thor or superman
but I remember he once reach the level of Spiderman's
after being poisoned by a foe called "the viper" if I recalled correctly he had to crawl with every once of his strength to get to the antidote the viper left behind
and then he had to crawl back and give some to the falcon laying unconscious at a few feet from him
I thought that cap America gain super strength because of the immense effort he had to make with a paralyzing poison in his vein !
and since falcon was already unconscious and didn't' t move any muscle with the poison in his blood, he didn't gain super strength like cap did .
but it turn out to be that cap America gain super strength because of the effect the of the poison with the mixture of the super soldier serum he already had in his blood.
my point his everybody has different perspective and understand things differently.
like some people still think that the Batman has super strength and he's immortal , I have a little local magazines with that statement.
but when I see professional in the comic industries trying to come up with something to give the advantage to Batman having a fist fight with Superman
then that really pisses me off !
Because they should know better
last Friday I saw the Batman against Dracula on TV and I was glad to see that some scenarist realized that there's no chance in hell that the batman could have a fist fight with Dracula and come up on top and I applaud him or her for that.

[Infinity9999x]

See here is where i disagree in order for someone to be the fastest sprinter there body would need to built a certain way. And if you wanted to be a power lifter you would need to have a different build all together. So peak human abilities in all areas isnt atainable cause a power lifter by body type could not be fast and vice versa. So one doesnt really lend itself to helping the other. So since Caps abilities arent really going to be based on biology anyway so there really is no reason to try to figure out what a peak human could actually achieve. Just say hes super human, I would lean towards more powerful leave it at that and lets get to some nazi smashing

Oh yes, I know this. But even at Cap's lowest power levels (the 616 stats) Cap would still not be able to do the things he could with his build. He has a strong yet slim athletic build, but he can still bench 600lbs, and also run a sub 3 minute mile. It's impossible.

You have to take into account that this is still fantasy. Yes, Cap wouldn't be able to have the body frame he does and still be the "peak human" we're describing, but he wouldn't be able to have the body frame he does and be able to do the things he does in the comics either. So it's just something you kind of have to go with.
[Diamondhead=quote]but I remember he once reach the level of Spiderman's [/quote]
Really? Because 616 Cap's stats are considerably lower. 616 Cap is listed at only being able to lift around 600lbs. Spidey is listed at being able to 10 tons. Quite a bit more than Cap.

[Denny67]

Marvel (http://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_(Steve_Rogers)) outlines how powerful he is on their grid pretty well.

INTELLIGENCE = Learned (college educated)
STRENGTH = Peak human: able to lift over twice own body weight, up to 800 lbs.
SPEED = Normal (in his case I would say human but world record setting athlete) but don't discount enhanced endurance. Not getting tired does a lot.
DURABILITY = Enhanced
FIGHTING ABILITY = Master of virtually all conventional forms of combat

[Rage]

If that comes from the Marvel Universe published in the early 80s...then I say its a tad out-dated.

[Turtles]

If that comes from the Marvel Universe published in the early 80s...then I say its a tad out-dated.

Out-dated, maybe, but still accurate, considering the fact that Cap has had pretty constant powers over his lifetime, unlike just about every other character in the 616 Marvel universe. And in the current comics (minus the Ultimates line), it's not like you see him lifting cars over his head or doing anything particularly spectacular to support the claim that his strength has increased all that much since his creation.

Now, on to the "peak human" bit of the discussion. I don't think there is real definition for "peak human" because all humans, more or less, are different. But even if there was one, how can people assume that it can actually change between the time Captain America was created and today? I hate to burst people's bubble, but the meaning of peak human can't change because humans haven't changed.

It may appear as if the meaning of "peak human" has changed because humans are running faster, jumping higher, lifting more, etc., etc., but that is all an illusion. Humans are just like everything else, they're designed to do only so much before they break--period.

We get the illusion that humans can do more today than ever before because technology, medicine, diet, and education is getting better, and with better technology, medicine, diet, and education, humans can....they can cheat, basically. You need look no further than swimming for proof of this. Swimmers are much faster today than ever before, but it's not because the swimmers of today are better, it is because they have high tech swimsuits that swimmers of years past didn't have. You need not get me started on steroids.

But, for the hell of it, let's say that the meaning of peak human can change. Let's say that, in the last sixty or so years humans, without a special breeding program, have magically evolved into a noticeably stronger, more durable species that can lift more without their arms snapping in half, and can run faster without their heart bursting in their chest, etc. (incredibly hard to believe, considering the fact that people have been selectively breeding animals for years to make them better, and their results are sometimes.....less than perfect)

Well, that still means nothing, because Steve Rogers was born in 1917, so he'll still only be capable of doing what a peak human could do in that day and age. What he will have is the same advantage everybody of today has: he'll know what to eat for energy and strength, he'll have the same supplements, and medical care, and high tech sports equipment or what have you at his disposal. He can use steroids! (616 Cap using steroids to become more like Ultimate Cap......there's a scary thought)

[Denny67]

Out-dated, maybe, but still accurate, considering the fact that Cap has had pretty constant powers over his lifetime, unlike just about every other character in the 616 Marvel universe. And in the current comics (minus the Ultimates line), it's not like you see him lifting cars over his head or doing anything particularly spectacular to support the claim that his strength has increased all that much since his creation.

Now, on to the "peak human" bit of the discussion. I don't think there is real definition for "peak human" because all humans, more or less, are different. But even if there was one, how can people assume that it can actually change between the time Captain America was created and today? I hate to burst people's bubble, but the meaning of peak human can't change because humans haven't changed.

It may appear as if the meaning of "peak human" has changed because humans are running faster, jumping higher, lifting more, etc., etc., but that is all an illusion. Humans are just like everything else, they're designed to do only so much before they break--period.

We get the illusion that humans can do more today than ever before because technology, medicine, diet, and education is getting better, and with better technology, medicine, diet, and education, humans can....they can cheat, basically. You need look no further than swimming for proof of this. Swimmers are much faster today than ever before, but it's not because the swimmers of today are better, it is because they have high tech swimsuits that swimmers of years past didn't have. You need not get me started on steroids.

But, for the hell of it, let's say that the meaning of peak human can change. Let's say that, in the last sixty or so years humans, without a special breeding program, have magically evolved into a noticeably stronger, more durable species that can lift more without their arms snapping in half, and can run faster without their heart bursting in their chest, etc. (incredibly hard to believe, considering the fact that people have been selectively breeding animals for years to make them better, and their results are sometimes.....less than perfect)

Well, that still means nothing, because Steve Rogers was born in 1917, so he'll still only be capable of doing what a peak human could do in that day and age. What he will have is the same advantage everybody of today has: he'll know what to eat for energy and strength, he'll have the same supplements, and medical care, and high tech sports equipment or what have you at his disposal. He can use steroids! (616 Cap using steroids to become more like Ultimate Cap......there's a scary thought)


Well stated Turtles.

@ Rage… It is not outdated at all. It is currently up on the Marvel website.

The idea of "peak human" condition is now and has always been in a frame of reference from the modern day analysis as we look at Cap in the here and now and not how he was in WWII. Caps origin is in WWII and there are stories to be told from that time but he is a modern hero.

So when those power levels are figured it is in the context of comparing him to existing heroes in the Marvel universe.

Marvel started Marvel Universe in the 80’s (I know, bought them when they were first published and still own them all) but Marvel has maintained them ever since then and now offers the info online for free through the official Marvel Wiki.

http://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_(Steve_Rogers (http://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_(Steve_Rogers))

[Infinity9999x]

It may appear as if the meaning of "peak human" has changed because humans are running faster, jumping higher, lifting more, etc., etc., but that is all an illusion. Humans are just like everything else, they're designed to do only so much before they break--period.



That's somewhat subjective. Yes, we have better medical benefits, better diet, ect. and because of this we're growing bigger and stronger than we ever have.

However, we're still bigger and stronger than we ever have been. So yes, we ARE different. Athletes today are bigger and stronger than athletes two hundred years ago. Yes, you can say that it's because of outside factors that we are this way, but the simple fact is, we are different from our ancestors. Again, weather you want to argue that it's because humans each generation are naturally getting bigger and stronger, or because with modern technology we're able to eliminate more of the factors that held us back from reaching our physical potentials, it doesn't matter to me. Humans have changed.

And really, my argument for this wasn't about to debate what constitutes peak human. I understand that that realistically, this term has no meaning, because it's impossible to figure out what our "peak" potential is as a species.

However, just for sake of debate, I decided to go along with the idea that if Cap is as strong as the strongest human in every area of athletics (example: His chest is as strong as the best bench presser in the world, his legs are as strong as the strongest lower body power-lifter in the world, his fast twitch muscles are as developed as the fastest sprinter in the world, ect. ect.)

It would then be realistic to assume that Cap is actually able to do more than the "peak" humans we're comparing him to in each subject. For example, even though Cap's fast twitch muscles are as developed as Usain Bolt, he would actually be faster than Bolt, because he has the added power of the strongest power-lifter. ect. ect.

Basically, it's pointing out the idea that the entire body is one functioning system. Many people don't realize it, but seemingly unrelated muscle groups work together in exercise. Having a stronger lower body will actually help your bench press.

[marcvader]

No to Cap lifting cars.

[Turtles]

However, we're still bigger and stronger than we ever have been. So yes, we ARE different. Athletes today are bigger and stronger than athletes two hundred years ago. Yes, you can say that it's because of outside factors that we are this way, but the simple fact is, we are different from our ancestors. Again, weather you want to argue that it's because humans each generation are naturally getting bigger and stronger, or because with modern technology we're able to eliminate more of the factors that held us back from reaching our physical potentials, it doesn't matter to me. Humans have changed.

200 years ago we were probably noticeably different, yeah, I agree with you there. But I'm talking about only sixty or seventy years ago, not 200, and we, as a species, haven't changed that much in the last sixty or seventy years. We may have grown an inch here or there, but we're humans, not cars--we don't go through major redesigns every ten years or so.

It would then be realistic to assume that Cap is actually able to do more than the "peak" humans we're comparing him to in each subject. For example, even though Cap's fast twitch muscles are as developed as Usain Bolt, he would actually be faster than Bolt, because he has the added power of the strongest power-lifter. ect. ect.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree with it, I just don't agree with how much of a power boost you think it can lead to. If all Cap's muscles were in perfect condition, and they worked in unison to do the maxim amount of work, then I believe he might be able to force an extra 100 to 200 pounds out of a lift and, maybe, an extra five or six miles an hour out of a sprint. His strength won't double, nor will his speed. So, if he is able to lift 800 pounds, then, if his muscles do work as one and give him a boost of strength, he might really be able to pull off lifting as much as 1,000 pounds. But 1,000 pounds still isn't very impressive by superhero standards, and still isn't at the level of Ultimate Cap.

But, I'll be happy if they keep his Marvel stats as is and make him only able to lift up to 800 pounds. I can understand why people would want him to have super strength--it's cool, it really is. But everything about him being a hero with super strength is just.....wrong. And here's why:

1.One of things that showed just how great Captain America was as a man and as a hero, was the fact that he didn't have great super powers, yet real super strong heroes, the likes of Thor, would follow him to hell and back anyway. It emphasized the fact that he was a charismatic, smart man that every body wanted to make their leader; they didn't want to make him the leader just because he was the strongest guy in the room. (not that he would be, even if he had Ultimate level strength, I'm just saying that the weaker he is, the more impressive it will be to see people like Thor follow him)

2. He's always been about tactics, not about strength.

3. I recently re-read the first issues of the original Avengers, and I'm really surprised by the number of times people refer to him as the weakest member of the original team.....yet he's the one who always saves the day. So, basically, he's made a career off proving to the world that being "weak" doesn't mean anything when it comes down to being a good superhero. That shouldn't have to change.

Cap needs to be an awesome hero without relying on a power boost. I mean, if making him stronger is the only way to give him that "wow" factor that people are asking for, then maybe we should just make him bullet proof, too, and give him the ability to fly--that would really give him a "wow" factor, wouldn't it?

We can debate about what "peak human" means for years to come, and about how much extra power you can gain by having strong muscles all over your body rather than in just one place until we're blue in the face. But, let's face it, Cap is what he is.

He was designed by Marvel to be a great hero--not because he had great powers, but rather, because he stood for something great.

Whew......these posts are getting long. Sorry.

[marcvader]

I agree with you T. Cap is about inspiration, determination, and heart for me and always has been. He's always accomplished great feats of heroism without the aid of "super" abilities and is why he's always been my favorite in the Marvel U.

[Rage]

Turtles...

Captain America generally performed just below superhuman levels for most of his career. Captain America had a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he had metabolized had enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Most notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance.

So, while I agree with most of what you are saying. What I'm reading is that Cap is just slightly below Superhuman... but WAY MORE than regular human levels...

So, he should easily run faster than Bolt. Be able to lift way more than any Strongman... swim way faster/farther than Michael Phelps ect...

Cap for al intents and purposes IS SUPERHUMAN. The things that he does all the time would seem superhuman to any bystander. Sure he's not the most powerful hero out there...but he is no slouch.

[Webhead2006]

those are all good points guys and i agree with you.

[Infinity9999x]

Turtles,

I get what you're saying about the strength level thing, the point being that the less power Cap has, the more impressive his feats seem.

However, a part of me just likes Cap to be a little more beefed up. I mean, Ultimate Cap, by superhero standards, still isn't the biggest heavy hitter. 2 tons is still pretty sparse compared to Spider-man's 10. However, even though he's weaker, it still gives him the power to go toe to toe with some Meta-humans. The scene in Ultimates vol 1 for example, where Cap has a brief encounter with Hulk. Yeah, Cap only gets a few shots in, but at least because of his added power, I can see him actually being able to stagger the Hulk for a few moments, where I would have a hard time believing 616 Cap being able to do that.

Also, one thing that I just thought of, that we haven't taken into account, is the lack of Lactic Acid. We know that Cap's muscles don't produce this, and not only does this dramatically increase his cardio abilities (in terms of how long he can run, fight, be active, ect.) but it would also effect his muscle-building abilities. One thing that limits the amount of time we can work out is the fatigue producing posions as Rage put it.

Cap would be able to train longer and harder without getting tired the way a normal person would. Now, as to weather or not this would effect the maximum level of strength Cap could reach, I'm not sure, but it would certainly effect the amount of time Cap could lift a certain weight.

[Sparky]

Ultimate Cap can lift a lot more than two tons. In Ultimates 2 he has seven or eight class 3 guys holding him down and he's able to throw them off. I think Wizard Magazine first came up with the Ultimate Cap = 2 ton thing. They also had Ult. Colossus at like class 20 or something, which is also wrong since Ult. Colossus carry a whole submarine (marking him easily as a class 100). I don't put much stock in Wizard's estimates. Anyway, Ultimate Cap is more in the class 5-10 range.

For the movie, I'd prefer Cap to be closer to his Ultimate counterpart.

[Infinity9999x]

Ultimate Cap can lift a lot more than two tons. In Ultimates 2 he has seven or eight class 3 guys holding him down and he's able to throw them off. I think Wizard Magazine first came up with the Ultimate Cap = 2 ton thing. They also had Ult. Colossus at like class 20 or something, which is also wrong since Ult. Colossus carry a whole submarine (marking him easily as a class 100). I don't put much stock in Wizard's estimates. Anyway, Ultimate Cap is more in the class 5-10 range.

For the movie, I'd prefer Cap to be closer to his Ultimate counterpart.

Captain America is sufficiently strong enough to lift 2 tons

http://marvel.wikia.com/Steven_Rogers_(Earth-1610)

[Sparky]

http://marvel.wikia.com/Steven_Rogers_(Earth-1610)
That page looks blank to me. :confused:

[3dman27]

it is whats going on?

[Infinity9999x]

Weird, the link isn't working, but if you type in Ultimate Captain America in the search bar on the page, the info will pop up.

Don't know why the hyperlink doesn't work though.

[SpiderByte]

He'll be 100% human strength. Not superhuman, but powerful as a person could possibly be.

[Rage]

I got news for you guys... anyone who can go full out for HOURS without tiring and can sprint a 60 second mile... IS SUPERHUMAN!! He's not Thor or Hulk... but he's what anyone in the real world would consider SUPERHUMAN.

Rage

[3dman27]

So dr.erkskine's experiment t make a peak human backfired on him and gave the u.s. Its first super-human/

[afan]

As I understood it the "peak human abilities" that the serum grants Captain America refers to the human body operating in all capacities at 100%. It is super-human, in that no normal human unassisted by the serum can acheive his level regardless of training regimes or dedication. He's not just as strong as the strongest man, he is as strong as the human body can possibly be.
I believe it's based on some pseudo-scientific theory that humans only operate at 10% of there total capacity.

[Infinity9999x]

The fact that his body does not produce lactic acid also makes him superhuman. He can pretty much go until he dies.

[Rage]

Exactly Infinity! The guy is Superhuman. I think that being able to press 800lbs is not that "Superhuman" since I believe that the world record was set by Ryan Kennelly who pressed 1075 lbs (487.61 kg) (November 8)

So if that guy is "human"... than shouldn't Cap be able to out-press him? The world record in 1950 was 400 lbs by Doug Hepburn. So if that was the "peak" human performance and Cap can do double that... is it fair to say that Cap should probably be able to double what the current record is? 2150 lbs??..... and be able to do it repeatedly without the buildup of lactic acid? Seems "Superhuman" to me :D

[Timstuff]

The truth is that we do not know what "peak" human conditioning is since the bar always seems to get raised. My persona opinion is that since Cap is a super soldier, they might as well give the audience something to hoot and holler about. He might not be "super" in the sense that he doesn't have any "powers" other than beefed up abilities of a human being, but that in and of itself is still "super." I wouldn't mind if they showed him throwing a car in the movie.

[Spider-Fan]

Cap throwing cars is not iconic Cap to me, though Inifinty's argument has a lot of merit and Cap propably could given those points. But, it's still not iconic Cap to me, so I'd rather see him do awesome stuff with his shield and just be extremely athletic in his overall fighting style. Batman doesn't do a whole lot in terms of his fighting in the Nolan films, but we get a lot of great action sequences and struggles with him. I think the same can be done with Cap. Only bigger since he is a more athletic person than Batman.

[Timstuff]

Batman has Ninja skills though, and he can turn himself almost completely invisible if he knows the terrain (and even if he doesn't, in most instances). He's also got an abundance of sweet toys to play with like his utility belt full of gadgets and weapons, the batmobile, etc. If they want to sell Cap to the audience, he's going to have to offer something remarkable. Just being a really good fighter and being able to throw a shield isn't really going to be enough IMO, especially if he's going to be on a team. Since the premise of his character is that he was a superhero created through a super serum, I think that what the audience is going to want and expect will be to see him doing "superhuman" feats like throwing cars, even if he has to exert himself to do so (unlike Superman or even Spider-Man).

Cap doesn't have "powers" in that he can't fly or anything like that, but I do think his strength, agility, and endurance should be beyond those of a normal human, not just "at peak level" (and really, if EVERYTHING was "at peak" he'd already technically be beyond what a normal human can achieve). I think they need to make it clear that the things Cap can do would be impossible for someone without some kind of super serum to do, because otherwise a lot of the audience might be like "well then why didn't they just put someone through grueling training?"

I'm not saying they should re-imagine what Cap is, just that his power level should be defined in the film as being beyond those of unassisted humans (i.e. he can throw a car), not fixed to what we believe to be peak level (i.e. olympic athlete records). The worst case scenario for a non-super Cap would be that dreadful 1990 movie, which The Nostalgia Critic called one of the lamest superheroes ever (and this was from a guy who had to review freaking STEEL!).

Unlike Batman, Cap isn't just a regular guy who got where he is through training, so I think the audience is going to want the movie to give us a reason why a serum was necessary, and not just have him be a highly trained athlete. I'd like to think that TIH was just giving us a small hint of what Cap might be able to do, and not just be "the real Super Soldier Serum is like this, except without the crazies."

[Spider-Fan]

Look at what Blonsky does in TIH. His 2nd battle with the Hulk when he only has the serum powers is actually rather impressive in terms of what he can do. If you have Cap do a ton of things like that, and do cool things with the shield, I think it will be enough. Since he won't be doing these things to the Hulk, it would make him look good. The 90's film Cap did nothing remotely athletic, and that is why he failed at being human perfection. If you have a Cap capable of what Blonsky was doing in TIH, and have him do it more cleanly or more impressive, I don't think he needs to throw cars to be impressive. Cool fights and action can be achieved with Cap without having to go there. Throwing cars has never been Caps style. The film needs to define Cap's power level, yes, but I also think Cap needs to have a fighting style defined. That seems against his style to me.

Cap was never the most powerful Avenger we also have to remember. But, he is the best leader, the strongest willed, and the best strategist. Thor and IM may have more overall power, but Cap excels in areas they do not. Emphasising these things is the way to go.

[Rage]

Among the "peak human abilities" that Cap has is his memory. Cap NEVER forgets anything since he doesn't lose brain cells at the normal human rate. That is why he can recall any military tactic in a split second and implement or counteract an enemy's strategy. That is what makes him an ideal leader... his passion and willingness to be the first person into the line of fire is what makes him A GREAT LEADER!

[Infinity9999x]

The one thing to remember about the whole "throwing cars" argument is this:

Normal humans have been shown to be able to lift up large cars, and even flip entire cars over. We all know of the "granny who lifted up a truck to save her grandson" example, but the truth is, that stuff actually happens. When your adrenaline spikes that much, the human body can do amazing things.

So, in a ful-out battle, would it really be that far fetched for someone who is supposed to be the pinnacle of human perfection in every area of his physical body be able to throw a car?

And if not throw, I would at least have him be able to press it up and flip it over fairly easily, since there are actual strongmen alive today who can do stuff like that.

[Spider-Fan]

This might be true, but just cause Cap may be able to throw a car doesn't mean he should in the film. Cap was always more of a hand to hand guy, with the added element of finese with his shield. He was never a lift heavy object and toss it like a baseball hero. It is not his style. I think the film needs to stay true to the style Cap has used in fighting in the comic. Don't just have him throw a car cause it would look cool. That is not the kind of thinking I want the guys in the room to have.

I say stay true to Cap's style.

[Timstuff]

What if someone was pinned though, and he had to lift the car off of him and there was a bad guy right behind him? The most logical thing to do would be to pick up the car and throw it at the bad guy!

[Spider-Fan]

Curse you and your logical scenario :cmad:

If anything like that happens in the movie, I'd be fine with it. But, if it is a loud sequence and he tosses a car just to make a cool moment, I'll cry foul.

[Infinity9999x]

Curse you and your logical scenario :cmad:

If anything like that happens in the movie, I'd be fine with it. But, if it is a loud sequence and he tosses a car just to make a cool moment, I'll cry foul.

I agree with that. I don't want to see Cap tossing cars around like it's a piece of cake. He's not the Hulk. If Cap ever does end up displaying a feat of strength like tossing a car, it should be a BIG moment, and be obviously hard for him to do.

I wouldn't want it to happen more then once, that way it's a better moment. It's like "CRAP he just picked up a car!" Instead of "oh yeah, he tossed a car again."

And I would want it to be in a desperate situation as well, like in the scenario described above, where Cap needed to get it off someone, and a baddie was right behind him. Or maybe Cap's going up against a heavy hitter, and he does something desperate to give himself a little breathing time, so he digs down and uses that energy to throw the car at the baddie.

Because when you think about it, even at Ult. Cap strength levels, tossing a car isn't going to be something he's going to be able to do without a fair amount of strain. He would naturally want to conserve his strength, so he would only do it in a desperate situation.

[Spider-Fan]

I agree with that. I don't want to see Cap tossing cars around like it's a piece of cake. He's not the Hulk. If Cap ever does end up displaying a feat of strength like tossing a car, it should be a BIG moment, and be obviously hard for him to do.

I wouldn't want it to happen more then once, that way it's a better moment. It's like "CRAP he just picked up a car!" Instead of "oh yeah, he tossed a car again."

And I would want it to be in a desperate situation as well, like in the scenario described above, where Cap needed to get it off someone, and a baddie was right behind him. Or maybe Cap's going up against a heavy hitter, and he does something desperate to give himself a little breathing time, so he digs down and uses that energy to throw the car at the baddie.

Because when you think about it, even at Ult. Cap strength levels, tossing a car isn't going to be something he's going to be able to do without a fair amount of strain. He would naturally want to conserve his strength, so he would only do it in a desperate situation.

We're in complete agreement here :up:

Tossing a car would take a lot out of Cap, so if he does it, I'd want it to be in a big moment and be something we can see takes a lot out of him. That would both display Cap's physical ability and keep the feel of the film consistant. I just don't want this film to get caught up in what Cap can do and show off just to show off at the expense of the story. But, if it fits the moment, by all means do it.

[Timstuff]

I agree that throwing a car should be shown as an extraordinary feat for Cap and not something he would have done under normal conditions. It should be like "WHOA! He just THREW A FREAKING CAR!", and that should be the audience's hint as to what the extent of his strength is. If he exerts himself, he can throw a car. I think that would be better than the audience just constantly wondering "OK, so he's supposed to be really strong, but how strong? What's the most incredible feat of strength he can pull off?"

[afan]

As far as strength goes I equate Captain America's level to Bane's level on Venom. Of course Cap's serum enhances more than just his strength making Captain America much more power-"full".

[not_a_victim]

And something to keep in mind...
TIH prepped us for a Cap that is physically no bigger than an average man. Blonsky didn't gain any muscle mass when he was injected with the SSS. When I saw that in TIH, my first reaction was, "They are doing this so Matt Damon can be Cap!"

[Turtles]

First off, let me just say that there is nobody in real life, that I know of, who can actually lift a car. I know about the stories you hear, and about what you see on those strongman competitions and such, but let me just point out that those people never lift the entire car off the ground at any time. They lift half the car off the ground, at most, so they're only carrying half the weight. If you don't believe me go out, find something big and heavy, try to lift up just the edge of it, then try to lift up the entire thing--see for yourself which is easier.

I'd actually be okay with Cap being able to pull a car away from the ground to free a trapped person, but I'm still against him throwing a car, because throwing is a whole different thing than lifting.

And, as to the argument that Cap won't be cool enough without a power boost, well, let me just draw your attention to something........

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3407/3337715758_7658685d98.jpg

Yeah, him. I'm bringing him up because we all know what they did to him in the Wolvering movie. Well, why do you think the guys at Fox did that? They probably did that because they thought that Deadpool was lame without added powers.

How many guys do you think there were at Fox saying "Hmmm, a guy with a sword, and healing abilities? Well that's lame, he's no different than Wolverine. Hey, I know, let's give him laser eyes, and a healing ability, and the ability to teleport, and let's make those blades come out out of his arms! That will make him cool! The audience will love him and he'll be able to carry his own solo movie!"

So, yeah, sure, change Cap all you want because you think he's not cool enough, or strong enough, or whatever.....just remember what they did to Deadpool in the Wolverine movie, first.

On a side note about X-Men Origins: Wolverine, don't you think it's funny that Wolverine ever got popular enough for that movie to be made? I mean, come on, isn't a character like Wolverine so lame? He's got nothing but blades and a healing ability--lame, right? Since he doesn't have super strength he looks so pathetic. :woot:

Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I have to go to the Avengers forum and join in the "Hawkeye needs guns and super strength or else he'll look stupid" thread.

[not_a_victim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbjJBZIONUc

http://www.livevideo.com/video/69D5608928B1455CB577AED2299DFADF/Tiny-s+the+Man.aspx

Two copies of the same video. First one is the complete report, second one is just the good part.
This guy does what you said, he levers the helicopter off his friend. But I will remind you the engine of a helicopter is at the top, and that is the part moving teh most in the videos.
Yes, even at peak levels, with his combined talents, Cap should not be able to lift a car (or object of similar weight) and toss it, but he should be able to do something like this..

[afan]

Nice video can't help but think it's..... Captain Buttcrack:yay:
Just for arguments sake....
What your forgetting is that Captain America is not as strong as the strongest man, he is as strong as the human body can possibly be! No normal human possesses or even approaches the strength, stamina, speed, agility, balance, etc. that Captain America possesses, he is the ultimate!

That being said throwing a car(unless it's a smart car)may be a bit much.

[Infinity9999x]

Turtles,

To begin with, you're blowing that completely out of proportion. Powering up a superhero does not instantly mean that the production company will go "lets just add tons of random powers he's never had before because it's AWESOME!!!"

You have to remember that you're using FOX as an example. That's about as bad as citing Fox News as an unbiased news source.

Remember also, that the Cap being at the level we're talking about already exists in the comics. Ultimate Cap is a fairly popular incarnation of the character, regardless of whether you like him or not. So it wouldn't be like the studio was just going "Hell, let's just beef him up because we think it's cool." They would actually have a source.

And you also seem to overlook that Superheroes get beefed up in almost EVERY movie they are in. Spider-man would never try and stop a train by jumping in front of it and putting his foot down on the railing, nor would he try and do it by shooting out a bunch of webs and holding on. He's never been shown to have that strength level before.

Also, go back and look at the one scene with Deadpool in Origins that pretty much everyone universally liked. The bullet-slicing scene. The DP in the movies obviously had some sort of low-grade mutation or powers, because no normal human can jump into a room of people filled with guns, and slice away hundreds of bullets flying at him.

And yes, strongmen don't lift the entire car up, but we're talking about Cap here, and a Cap in a situation where his adrenaline would be maxed out. Who knows what the guy could do? Heck, I read a story about a rock-climber who was stuck on a ledge, trapped under a boulder. With his adrenaline going, he actually managed to press the boulder up and off him. Officials told him later that the rock weighed over 2 tons.

Now, granted, this man also ripped the muscles in his arms off his bones, and had to be in a hospital for several long days. But if he could just press this rock off him, (not using his legs) who's to say what Cap could do?

[The Ace of Knaves]

I don't think Cap should be able to throw cars and **** like that. That just isn't, Cap.

Just have him at the level Blonsky was when he fought Hulk at the school. I mean, he ****ing ran rings round the Hulk. That's all you need from Cap.

And also Turtles, if you judge how good a comic book character is by their powers alone then well, pffft. Hopefully you was joking with that crack against Wolverine.

[Turtles]

I knew I'd get some responses out of that post. You guys do realize I was exaggerating for effect, right?

I don't think Cap should be able to throw cars and **** like that. That just isn't, Cap.

Just have him at the level Blonsky was when he fought Hulk at the school. I mean, he ****ing ran rings round the Hulk. That's all you need from Cap.

Seconded. Blonsky, though not the most impressive fighter, did look good in his battle with the Hulk.

And also Turtles, if you judge how good a comic book character is by their powers alone then well, pffft. Hopefully you was joking with that crack against Wolverine.

I was being sarcastic. Should I have used the eye-roll smiley? I was trying to point out that heroes without much in the way of powers can, indeed, carry their own film.

By the way, I'm not the one who is judging comic book characters based on their powers alone. Why don't you go back and see all the people who said Cap wasn't good enough as a hero with just a shield and "peak human" strength--they think he needs to be able to lift 2 tons or else he'll look pathetic on film. Frankly, I wonder what those people did before Ultimates came out......they must have hated normal 616 Cap.

[The Ace of Knaves]

Ok ok chill dude. I'm glad you was being sarcy, just couldn't quite tell. :D

And yea people who judge characters on their powers alone are fools!

Cap could look plenty impressive in the movie if they stay accurate to his power levels. You just need imagination to think of scenarios.

Imagine Cap sprinting full speed at a machine gun nest, deflecting bullets as he goes, jumping over debris, booting Nazi's in the face.

Or fighting Nazi's and someone is about to shoot him from behind and he flips his shield on to his back deflecting the bullets and carries on fighting.

Or deflecting a ****ing tank shell with his shield.

All that there would be great to see one film and it would make Cap look like a thorough bad ass. We don't need to see him throwing cars and punching through walls and crap like that.

[Turtles]

^ agreed. Throwing cars is a very unimaginative way of making a character seem cool. I mean, yeah, it is a cool thing to see......but an unimaginative cool thing to see.

[Stripesy Strip]

I don't think Cap should be able to throw cars and **** like that. That just isn't, Cap.

Just have him at the level Blonsky was when he fought Hulk at the school. I mean, he ****ing ran rings round the Hulk. That's all you need from Cap.



There's no doubt in my mind that for Marvel Studios, the way Blonsky was done, it was sort of a blueprint for Captain America and how they would do Cap in his futur movie. At places he was almost too extraordinary for Cap, though(especially the running, that was hilarous. he was like Superman in the Dick Donner movie when he outran the train).

[Infinity9999x]

^ agreed. Throwing cars is a very unimaginative way of making a character seem cool. I mean, yeah, it is a cool thing to see......but an unimaginative cool thing to see.

I think you're getting the wrong idea about this car thing. If you read above, I made the point that I would only want it to happen once, and even then I would want it to be a very desperate attempt, akin to Spider-man stopping the train in SM2 (which, even though it's far outside what I think Spider-man should be able to do, it was still a good moment.)

I don't think anyone here wants to see Cap tossing around Cars left and right like it's just as easy as all get out. He's not the Hulk, and if the writers did that, it would be bad writing, because it would just be bulking up Cap to show us a stronger Cap for the hell of it.

However, you're argument can go both ways. What's wrong with giving Cap ultimate level strength if it's used in a creative way? Or if it lends itself to the story? Just because a character has super-strength doesn't mean that the writers will automatically say "to hell with good storytelling! Let's just show them blowing up **** because it's COOL!"

For example, a beefed up Cap would be able to hold his own against the Hulk a little better than the normal Cap would, and that's something that could be an issue, if Hulk is a villain in the first Avengers movie.

Yes, Blonsky did all right against Hulk, but we all know that after taking one hit from the Hulk, Blonsky almost got killed. I wouldn't mind my Cap being a little more sturdy, so he could actually take a hit and not be out of commission.

Again, I just don't understand why you think stronger cap = bad storytelling.

[Turtles]

Again, I just don't understand why you think stronger cap = bad storytelling.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't think stronger Cap equals bad storytelling. I just think stronger Cap could seem like......cheap storytelling.

I'm not saying that a stronger Cap will automatically ruin the movie, I'm just saying that Cap was an interesting and relevant character in Marvel comics decades before he got a strength boost, so making him stronger for the movie just seems like another Hollywood gimmick--you know, like the car that magically explodes whenever the hero shoots it's gas tank just because it's in the script?

Listen, I know you don't want him throwing cars all the time--that's way out of the question--and even I'll admit that a stronger Cap would be kinda cool. I just think we should look for a happy medium before we go and decide to give Cap Ulitmate-level strength because it's cool.

So, what if Cap was able to lift, say, 1,200 pounds? You'll probably argue that regular humans can do that, so it's not that impressive.....or is it? A regular human can lift 1,200 pounds for what, ten seconds? And they can bench it how many times? Two or three? If Cap can bench/pick up 1,200 pounds without any special devices, and hold it indefinitely thanks to the fact that he doesn't produce lactic acid and doesn't get tired, then he is way more impressive than any regular human.......without being that impressive at all.

You've gotta remember that Cap's endurance alone can make him very impressive, even if he doesn't have a strength boost. Do you understand?

[Rage]

I think showing Cap do something like lift a truck/tank off of somebody or out of a giant hole in the road etc... (using all his strength) would show that this man is capable of doing great things. I just don't want to see him hurl a car. Its one thing to be able to say lift a helicopter off a drowning man and its another to lift it and hurl it at an enemy :D

[The Ace of Knaves]

Yea I wouldn't mind him lifting something heavy off of a comrade or something (maybe Bucky?). But no way to hurling things. Cap wouldn't throw anything anyway, apart from his shield.

[Infinity9999x]

Don't misunderstand me, I don't think stronger Cap equals bad storytelling. I just think stronger Cap could seem like......cheap storytelling.

I'm not saying that a stronger Cap will automatically ruin the movie, I'm just saying that Cap was an interesting and relevant character in Marvel comics decades before he got a strength boost, so making him stronger for the movie just seems like another Hollywood gimmick--you know, like the car that magically explodes whenever the hero shoots it's gas tank just because it's in the script?

Listen, I know you don't want him throwing cars all the time--that's way out of the question--and even I'll admit that a stronger Cap would be kinda cool. I just think we should look for a happy medium before we go and decide to give Cap Ulitmate-level strength because it's cool.

So, what if Cap was able to lift, say, 1,200 pounds? You'll probably argue that regular humans can do that, so it's not that impressive.....or is it? A regular human can lift 1,200 pounds for what, ten seconds? And they can bench it how many times? Two or three? If Cap can bench/pick up 1,200 pounds without any special devices, and hold it indefinitely thanks to the fact that he doesn't produce lactic acid and doesn't get tired, then he is way more impressive than any regular human.......without being that impressive at all.

You've gotta remember that Cap's endurance alone can make him very impressive, even if he doesn't have a strength boost. Do you understand?

I can agree with that. And actually, I wouldn't mind Cap being around the just over one-ton area. 1200lbs alone is actually very impressive, because even though that's close to the existing bench press record, it was achieved with a bench-shirt.

And I agree with the lactic acid thing, that's what really makes him "super" human. Cap can keep fighting for an indefinite amount of time, because the guy never gets tired, and that's what's impressive to me.

And actually, I really don't care about the car-tossing issue, I just addressed it because it was more about the principal that a beefed up Cap will equal bad storytelling. As I said above, I think it could be done in a way that doesn't cheapen the character. However, I wouldn't mind if it's never in the movies. In fact, I'd actually rather have a situation that Ace describes, where Cap lifts something incredibly heavy off a friend or someone in danger of being crushed under it.

Really, the biggest reason I wanted him to be a little more beefed up is the Hulk issue. If Hulk is going to be in the Avengers movie as a villain for any amount of time, I want my Cap to at least be able to handle a hit from the big green guy without being put out of commission. However, don't take that as me saying I want Cap to be able to take hits from Hulk and jump right back up like it's nothing. Because Cap shouldn't be able to take more then a hit or two, but I think it would make it more interesting if Cap could handle a bit of abuse. It should be Cap dancing around Hulk most of the time, but I wouldn't mind it if Hulk got in one good shot, and Cap isn't turned into mush.

[Bren]

I wouldn't mind a scene like that, where he lifts a truck off a comrade, but in a civilian setting.
However, bearing in mind that it'd be a big truck, I'd enjoy seeing him injure himself doing so. Back in the hospital he's getting out of bed (healed quick) and his commanders are moaning that he needs to keep himself fit for war. His response should be a rather straightforward, 'I'll help where I can and that's it'.
Couple things accomplished;
You see how strong he is
You see he's not invulnerable
You see the SSS provides a faster (not wolverine, mind) healing ability
In his reactions to his commanders, you see how much of a hero he is.

But no throwing of vehicles imo.

[not_a_victim]

I wouldn't mind a scene like that, where he lifts a truck off a comrade, but in a civilian setting.
However, bearing in mind that it'd be a big truck, I'd enjoy seeing him injure himself doing so. Back in the hospital he's getting out of bed (healed quick) and his commanders are moaning that he needs to keep himself fit for war. His response should be a rather straightforward, 'I'll help where I can and that's it'.
Couple things accomplished;
You see how strong he is
You see he's not invulnerable
You see the SSS provides a faster (not wolverine, mind) healing ability
In his reactions to his commanders, you see how much of a hero he is.

But no throwing of vehicles imo.

I agree.
He may flip a jeep or humvee or something, and he collapses with exhaustion after it is over, or something.
Or something.

[Infinity9999x]

I agree.
He may flip a jeep or humvee or something, and he collapses with exhaustion after it is over, or something.
Or something.

I wouldn't mind something like that. And again, the reason I would really like this kind of thing is because they would show Cap really straining to do this. (However, if you're going to show him injuring himself while lifting something, I would make it a very heavy item. We saw that man lift a 2,000 pound helicopter himself and not suffer hospital sustaining injury. So, with Cap's abilities, I would show him lifting something around double that weight. Just lifting it up, no throwing of course.)

[Timstuff]

I don't think that Cap should throw cars. I think it would be cool if he threw a car, during the climax when his adrenaline is pretty much maxed out and the situation is desperate enough to call for it. And it's not like he'd be throwing it 20 feet, either. He'd pretty much have the strength to lift up the car and then toss it a few yards (far enough for the fender to clear his head), but it would be a very physically strenuous act, and visibly it would look like one he'd want to avoid repeating.

[Gamma Goliath]

i dont want to see him throw a car i wanna see him maybe turn one over on its side and use it for cover, or to get someonefrom under it.

[Turtles]

Really, the biggest reason I wanted him to be a little more beefed up is the Hulk issue. If Hulk is going to be in the Avengers movie as a villain for any amount of time, I want my Cap to at least be able to handle a hit from the big green guy without being put out of commission. However, don't take that as me saying I want Cap to be able to take hits from Hulk and jump right back up like it's nothing. Because Cap shouldn't be able to take more then a hit or two, but I think it would make it more interesting if Cap could handle a bit of abuse. It should be Cap dancing around Hulk most of the time, but I wouldn't mind it if Hulk got in one good shot, and Cap isn't turned into mush.

Hmmm, mush factor......well, I'm afraid you're kinda out of luck when it comes to that, because even the mighty Thor has been known to get a bit mushy after one good hit from the Hulk. Of course Thor is a god, so he can bounce right back, but Cap? Not so bouncy. It all depends on the type of hit he takes, though. If Hulk hits Cap dead-on with all his strength, then Cap is going down pretty quick, but if he just grazes Cap, or tosses him aside with a swipe of his hand, then Cap would probably get back up pretty quick and continue the fight, given that Cap knows all about the importance of relaxing his body to absorb the impact of falls, etc., and he knows all sorts of martial arts blocking moves, and ways to come back and counter attack.

But even with a strength boost, Cap would still get creamed by the Hulk because a boost in strength isn't necessarily a boost in durability--the ability to lift 2 tons isn't going to keep him from getting a concussion and blacking out, you know? Cap's only chance of surviving a battle with the Hulk will be to run around like a (graceful) chicken with his head cut off and try to get in a punch or a kick in whenever he can--a lot like what Blonsky did in TIH.

You shoudn't worry too much, though. I don't think Marvel will be stupid enough to have Cap get taken out with one hit like Blonsky. And the guys at Marvel probably only made Blonsky get taken out with one hit because they had to give him a reason to really want to get a power boost so he could become the Abomination--and what better reason can there be to get a power boost than getting taken out with one kick?

And, a final note on the car throwing vs. lifting debate......maybe we can have Cap throw a dirt bike and split the difference.:cwink: