Captain America Cannon and Real World Facts - MUST READ

[blackbyrd]

Steve Rogers was born in New York City during the Depression and grew up a frail youth in a poor family. His father died when he was a child, his mother when he was in his late teens. Horrified by newsreel footage of the Nazis in Europe, Rogers was inspired to try to enlist in the Army. However, because of his frailty and sickness, he was rejected. Overhearing the boy's earnest plea to be accepted, General Chester Phillips of the U.S. Army offered Rogers the opportunity to take part in a special experiment called Operation: Rebirth. Rogers agreed and was taken to a secret laboratory in Washington, D.C. where he was introduced to Dr. Abrahan Erskine (code named: Prof. Reinstein), the creator to the Super-Soldier Serum.
After weeks of tests, Rogers was at last administered the Super-Soldier Serum. Given part of the compound intravenously and another part orally, Rogers was then bombarded by "vita-rays," a special combination of exotic (in 1941) wavelengths of radiation designed to accelerate and stabilize the serum's effect on his body. Steve Rogers emerged from the vita-ray chamber with a body as perfect as a body can be and still be human. A Nazi spy who observed the experiment murdered Dr. Erskine mere minutes after its conclusion. Erskine died without fully committing the Super-Soldier formula to paper, leaving Steve Rogers the sole beneficiary of his genius.
Roger was then put through an intensive physical and tactical training program, teaching him gymnastics, hand-to-hand combat and military strategy. Three months later, he was given his first assignment, to stop the Nazi agent called the Red Skull. To help him become a symbolic counterpart to the Red Skull, Rogers was given the red, white, and blue costume of Captain America.
During the war, he served as both a symbol of freedom and America's most effective special operative. Then, during the final days of the war, he was trying to stop a bomb-loaded drone-plane launched by Nazi technician Baron Heinrich Zemo when the plane exploded, killing his partner Bucky; and throwing him unhurt into icy Arctic waters. The Super-Soldier formula prevented crystallization of Captain America's bodily fluid, allowing him to enter a state of suspended animation. Decades later, he was rescued by the newly-formed Avengers and became a cornerstone of the team. His might undiminish. Captain America remains a symbol of liberty and justice.
Height: 6 ft. 2 in.
Weight: 240 lbs.
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Blond
Age at the Time of Enlistment: 17-18
Age at the Time of Freezing: Approximately 22
Special World War II Time Issues:
· WWII began in 1939.
· The US did not enter WWII until 1941 with the bombing of Pearl Harbor, HI.
· In 1941, Rogers was just out of high school
· Rogers enlisted at 17-18
· US Army Basic Training lasts about 4 months.
· Rogers had advanced training in addition to Boot Camp, for example Jump School, Ranger School, Survival School, etc.
· WWII ended in 1945
· WWII lasted 4 years for the US
· Rogers was frozen in ice about 4 years after he enlisted
· Even if his age was projected as a couple of years older, the most he would be is about 24-25 at the time of his freezing
Strength Level: Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection. While not superhuman, he is as strong as a human being can be. He can lift (press) a maximum of 800 pounds with supreme effort.
Known Superhuman Powers: None Known
Abilities: Captain America has agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he has metabolized has enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons, like lactic acid, in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance.
Captain America has mastered the martial art of American-style boxing and judo, and has combined these disciplines with his own unique hand-to-hand style of combat. He engages in a daily regimen of rigorous exercise (including aerobics, weight lifting, gymnastics, and simulated combat) to keep himself in peek condition. Captain America is one of the finest human combatants Earth has ever known.
Limitations: Captain America is subject to all human vulnerabilities, although his immunity to diseases is extraordinary.
Weapons: Captain America's only weapon is his shield, a concave disk 2.5 feet in diameter, weighing 12 pounds. It is made of a unique Vibranium-Adimantium alloy that has never been duplicated. The Shield was cast by American metallurgist Dr. Myron MacLain, who was contracted by the U.S. government to create an impenetrable substance to use for tanks during World War II. During his experiments, MacLain combined Vibranium with an Adamantium-steel alloy he was working with and created the disc-shaped shield. MacLain was never able to duplicate the process due to his inability identify a still unknown factor that played a role in it. The shield was awarded to Captain America by the government several months after the beginning of his career.
The shield has great aerodynamic properties: it is able to slice through the air with minimal wind resistance and deflection of path. Its great overall resilience, combined with its natural concentric stiffness, enables it to rebound from objects with minimal loss of angular momentum. It is virtually indestructible: it is resistant to penetration, temperature extremes, and the entire electromagnetic spectrum of radiation. The only way it can be damaged in any way is by tampering with its molecular bonding.
As of 2009 Current World Records:
Squat: 1220 lbs.
100m Dash: 9.58sec.
Mile: 3:43.13sec.
Deadlift: 1000lbs.
Clean and Jerk: 585lbs.
Pole Vault: 6.14 meters
Bench Press: 1074lbs.
Special Military Notes and Facts:
· Captain America was not an actual Captain. He was not an officer, as this requires a commission, not enlistment. To become an officer in the US military, you need a college degree. Nowhere in CAPT America cannon is it ever explained that Cap has a degree.
· At the time of his enlistment, he was an E-1, Enlisted-1. Generally, an enlisted service member makes Sergeant (SGT), which is E-5, Enlisted-5 in about 4 years, with good service and performance.
· A service member can be field promoted by a Flag Officer in times of battle, but this doesn’t usually last beyond the battle.
· The Captain (CAPT) was an honorary title and not an actual rank in this case, so, technically, he can’t give orders to anyone above an E-5 rank.
· This is probably why there are no ranking emblems on CAPT America’s uniform.
· He would probably be considered a member of the Special Forces community in the military today. The US Army Special Forces include Rangers and Green Berets.
· Other Special Forces include USMC Force Recon, USAF Para-Rescue/Para-Jumpers, USAF Combat Controllers, and USN Sea, Air, and Land (SEALs)
http://marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/captainamerica.htm (http://marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/captainamerica.htm)
http://marveldirectory.com/misc/capamericahotline.htm (http://marveldirectory.com/misc/capamericahotline.htm)
http://marveldirectory.com/misc/capamericamotorcycle.htm (http://marveldirectory.com/misc/capamericamotorcycle.htm)
http://marveldirectory.com/misc/capamericavan.htm (http://marveldirectory.com/misc/capamericavan.htm)

[Webhead2006]

Very good details about his life and powers/background. Good idea man.
We should get a mod to sticky this thread.

[KangConquers]

Those bench press figures are based on a muscle shirt, not a pure unaided bench.

unaided record is 700 lbs.

[Infinity9999x]

^^Yep.

But as to Cap's actually abilities, we discussed it pretty in-depth in the Cap's Power Level thread. Upon thinking about it, I realized that Cap would actually be able to do more impressive feats of strength/speed/and quickness in athletic tests than any olympic athlete.

The body is one functioning machine, and each separate muscle group aids every other lift. For example, if you have a weak lower body, you bench press will suffer, despite the bench being an upper body isolation lift.

Since Cap is at the pinnacle of human perfection in every area of athletics, (his legs are as strong as the strongest squatter, his upper body is as strong as best bench-presser, ect) this would all go together to actually make him stronger than the strongest bench-presser in the world, since he would also have the leg strength of the strongest squatter in the world.

And he would actually be faster than the fastest sprinter in the world, because he has the strength of the strongest power-lifters, ect, ect.

Which means that Cap's abilities could actually be considerably higher than the stats marvel lists him at.

[blackbyrd]

Cap's skills and abilities were designed by and quantified in the Official Guide to the Marvel Universe in the 80's. I'm ok with a slight mod because as humans we have made advances in athletics and human performance since then.

If the filmakers use this official origin above and add in the real world facts set in a Saving Private Ryan style shoot. This could be the greatest comic movie ever in front of Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. And I am no Batman fan but they killed it with these movies....

One of the critical elements is his age. He can't be 35 or even 40 years old. It won't make sense given the real world facts and history of WWII.

Let's hope someone does their homework and reads the forums and threads.

Nuff sed....

[Compi716]

It may be worth it to note that it was in fact Namor who first "discovered" the frozen Captain America. He was being worshiped by Eskimos, and in a fit of rage Namor grabbed the ice and threw it, where it was eventually found by the Avengers.

[Thundercrack85]

Think fans should be ready for a fair few things to change.

After all, Marvel Studios also changed a fair few things for their other films.

Also, he was frozen at 22? Wasn't he born in 1917?

[blackbyrd]

It's too bad that they will change so much. I think the story is a really solid story otherwise it wouldn't have lasted this long. About the only thing that I would be ok with them changing is the Namor piece. Not because I don't like Namor, because I do (a great anti-hero), but I just don't think it would translate well on screen at all.....my 2 cents...

You guys must be older because only the really older fans would know great facts like he was born in 1917 and was frozen at 22 and the Namor fact.

I knew that about Namor but only vaguely recall the 1917 thing. These are really great!!

I hope they get it right and treat it seriously....

One of my biggest concerns which is crucial is his age....Some of the fans here want actors who are in their mid 30's and even 40's to play Cap....just with the story and real world history of WWII, it just wouldn't make any sense at all....

You guys are great....

[Webhead2006]

well how do we know they are going to change or make up own things for cap. We havent heard i think what the film's writers are doing with the script, and i am sure if they are taking things seriously like marvel/jon f did with ironman, it would be foolish to change things just for change. They will probably take things from the classic 616 stuff more, and yes they will probably use some ultimate's elements within the film some time. We will just have to wait and see.

[roach]

Some good info but some of the facts are a little off.
1) Steve Rogers was Captain America for a full year before Pearl Harbor.
2)Steve Rogers rank has yet to be determined in print. I have seen occasions where he is refered to as Captain Steve Rogers. I tend to agree with his rank as Captain as during his pre WW2 time he had a secret identity of Private Steve Rogers.
3)Not entirely sure Steve Rogers went to Basic Training as many of his skill sets are not what they teach amry grunts....martial arts, gymnastics
4) As a result of the SSS Rogers learns faster than normal humans....so what may take a regular joe to learn in 4 months may take a few weeks with Rogers.
5) Cap's official birthdate is July 4th, 1917 which makes him 24 in 1941
6) Cap would be more elite than special forces and fall in to the same catagory of DEVGRU(most commonly known as SEAL Team 6 or 1st SFOD-D aka Delta Force)

[jab1118]

It's too bad that they will change so much. I think the story is a really solid story otherwise it wouldn't have lasted this long. About the only thing that I would be ok with them changing is the Namor piece. Not because I don't like Namor, because I do (a great anti-hero), but I just don't think it would translate well on screen at all.....my 2 cents...

You guys must be older because only the really older fans would know great facts like he was born in 1917 and was frozen at 22 and the Namor fact.

I knew that about Namor but only vaguely recall the 1917 thing. These are really great!!

I hope they get it right and treat it seriously....

One of my biggest concerns which is crucial is his age....Some of the fans here want actors who are in their mid 30's and even 40's to play Cap....just with the story and real world history of WWII, it just wouldn't make any sense at all....

You guys are great....

Not that im someone who wants an older Cap but I dont see how it wouldnt make any sense that he be older. It wouldnt make sense if it were today where the military is mostly made up of 19 year old kids but in ww2 where there was a draft and they needed as many soldiers as they can get plenty of men in there mid 30s joined up. Look at saving private ryan just about all them guys were in there 30s even 40s. Look at something like band of brothers all just about 30 and up. That being said I think the ideal age to cast Cap is somewhere around 30 not a kid but not old either

[roach]

Not that im someone who wants an older Cap but I dont see how it wouldnt make any sense that he be older. It wouldnt make sense if it were today where the military is mostly made up of 19 year old kids but in ww2 where there was a draft and they needed as many soldiers as they can get plenty of men in there mid 30s joined up. Look at saving private ryan just about all them guys were in there 30s even 40s. Look at something like band of brothers all just about 30 and up. That being said I think the ideal age to cast Cap is somewhere around 30 not a kid but not old either

Cap joined he wasnt drafted and his birthdate is listed at July 4th 1917

[blackbyrd]

Hey All,

You guys have really made this thread great. I thought it would die after some of the other threads and ideas people have had for this movie and their lack of real familiarity with Cap, WWII, or the military.

I'm encouraged that my fact sheet was pretty dead on except for his age. I did not know that about his age.

He was 24 in 1941, the year of the Pearl Harbor bombing, and the year that he was administered the SSS. WWII ended in 1945 and Cap was frozen at that time so he would have been 28 at the time of freezing. Still young compared to some of the people that have been suggested for casting Cap.

His age is critical because of the historical facts.

In 1941, he would be higher than a DEVGRU and Delta servicemember. Although, no where in canon does it say that the SSS made him smarter. So as for him catching on and doing basic training in 2 weeks or something, not so much. It would seem more realsitic if he did go through basic. As for his training, he would still need to do Jump School, Survival School, Airborne, Ranger, etc., albeit on a shorter course cycle. He is after all a SPECWAR/SPECOPS soldier, he just happens to be a one off.

As for Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers, they look old in those movies because casting directors have their heads in their asses and it is dark in there. It's no different than when they cast Luke Perry, age 30 to play a high school kid in 90210. Hollywood looks for established actors, not for historical accuracy. I am one who tinks you can find both. In the Vietnam War, the average age of a soldier was 19. Watch the movie Platoon, most of those actors are and lok well over 19. I have a friend who is an actor and was in a movie at age 28. His role was Col. What's His Name. Servicemembers don't get to 0-6 (Colonel/Captain) in most nearly all cases after age 40. Not exactly inspired or accurate casting.

Most Americans don't really relaize how young military members joining really are when you see them face to face. They look like babies. I see them where I work and they are just kids....many don't even have facial hair. It's funny. That's why Hollywood casts older. I don't think that community really has a clue most of the time.

As for Iron Man, I liked the movie. Didn't LOVE it. I think RDJ was too old. Stane never worked for Stark, he had his own company in competition with Stark. Even still, in the Top 5 greatest comic movies. That's another topic.

You guys are great.:cap:

[blackbyrd]

Just as a side note on timing issues. To be a Special Forces Operator in the USAF Combat Controller, you neeed the following training. This is why tehy are elite forces. Cap would have had to do some form of indoc that would last a lot longer than what most people would expect. Sure, it could be shortened but it would have to be somewhat realisitc. There is no way you can learn all of this stuf in a couple of weeks. This course list does not include Basic Training/Boot Camp...These guys are the closest things to Super Soldiers on Earth and it takes them this long....even if you cut that time in half....it would still be significant....

Initial Training

Combat Control Orientation Course, Lackland Air Force Base (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Lackland_Air_Force_Base), Texas (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Texas) ( two weeks)
This selection course focuses on sports physiology, nutrition, basic exercises, combat control history and fundamentals.[2] (http://forums.superherohype.com/#cite_note-factsheet-1)

Combat Control Operator Course, Keesler Air Force Base (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Keesler_Air_Force_Base), Mississippi (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Mississippi) (15.5 weeks)
This course teaches aircraft recognition and performance, air navigation aids, weather, airport traffic control, flight assistance service, communication procedures, conventional approach control, radar procedures and air traffic rules. All air traffic controllers in the Air Force attend this course.[2] (http://forums.superherohype.com/#cite_note-factsheet-1)

Army Airborne School (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/United_States_Army_Airborne_School), Fort Benning (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Fort_Benning), Georgia (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Georgia_(U.S._state)) (three weeks)
Trainees learn the basic parachuting skills required to infiltrate an objective area by static line (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Static_line) airdrop.[2] (http://forums.superherohype.com/#cite_note-factsheet-1)

Air Force Basic Survival School, Fairchild Air Force Base (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Fairchild_Air_Force_Base), Washington (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Washington) (2.5 weeks)
This course teaches techniques for survival in remote areas. Instruction includes principles, procedures, equipment and techniques that enable individuals to survive, regardless of climatic conditions or unfriendly environments, and return home.[2] (http://forums.superherohype.com/#cite_note-factsheet-1)

Combat Control School, Pope Air Force Base (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Pope_Air_Force_Base), North Carolina (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/North_Carolina) (13 weeks)
This course provides final Combat Controller qualifications. Training includes physical training, small unit tactics, land navigation, communications, assault zones, demolitions, fire support and field operations including parachuting. Graduates of the course are awarded the 3-skill level (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Air_Force_Occupational_Badge) (journeymen), scarlet beret and CCT flash.[2] (http://forums.superherohype.com/#cite_note-factsheet-1)

Advanced Training


Special Tactics Advanced Skills Training, Hurlburt Field (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Hurlburt_Field), Florida (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Florida) (12 to 15 months)
Advanced Skills Training is a program for newly assigned Combat Controller operators. AST produces mission-ready operators for the Air Force (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Air_Force_Special_Operations_Command) and United States Special Operations Command (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/United_States_Special_Operations_Command). The AST schedule is broken down into four phases: water, ground, employment and full mission profile. The course tests the trainee's personal limits through demanding mental and physical training. Combat Controllers also attend the following schools during AST:

Army Military Free Fall Parachutist School, Fort Bragg (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Fort_Bragg_(North_Carolina)), North Carolina (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/North_Carolina), and Yuma Proving Ground (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Yuma_Proving_Ground), Arizona (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Arizona) (five weeks)
This course instructs free fall parachuting procedures. The course provides wind tunnel training, in-air instruction focusing on student stability, aerial maneuvers, air sense, parachute opening procedures and parachute canopy control.[2] (http://forums.superherohype.com/#cite_note-factsheet-1)

Air Force Combat Diver School, Navy Diving and Salvage Training Center (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Naval_Support_Activity_Panama_City#Tenant_Commands ), Naval Support Activity Panama City (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Naval_Support_Activity_Panama_City), Florida (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Florida) (six weeks)
Trainees become combat divers (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Frogman), learning to use scuba (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Scuba_set) and closed circuit (http://forums.superherohype.com/wiki/Rebreather) diving equipment to covertly infiltrate denied areas. The course provides training to depths of 130 feet, stressing development of maximum underwater mobility under various operating conditions

[roach]

Hey All,

You guys have really made this thread great. I thought it would die after some of the other threads and ideas people have had for this movie and their lack of real familiarity with Cap, WWII, or the military.

I'm encouraged that my fact sheet was pretty dead on except for his age. I did not know that about his age.

He was 24 in 1941, the year of the Pearl Harbor bombing, and the year that he was administered the SSS. WWII ended in 1945 and Cap was frozen at that time so he would have been 28 at the time of freezing. Still young compared to some of the people that have been suggested for casting Cap.

His age is critical because of the historical facts.

In 1941, he would be higher than a DEVGRU and Delta servicemember. Although, no where in canon does it say that the SSS made him smarter. So as for him catching on and doing basic training in 2 weeks or something, not so much. It would seem more realsitic if he did go through basic. As for his training, he would still need to do Jump School, Survival School, Airborne, Ranger, etc., albeit on a shorter course cycle. He is after all a SPECWAR/SPECOPS soldier, he just happens to be a one off.

As for Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers, they look old in those movies because casting directors have their heads in their asses and it is dark in there. It's no different than when they cast Luke Perry, age 30 to play a high school kid in 90210. Hollywood looks for established actors, not for historical accuracy. I am one who tinks you can find both. In the Vietnam War, the average age of a soldier was 19. Watch the movie Platoon, most of those actors are and lok well over 19. I have a friend who is an actor and was in a movie at age 28. His role was Col. What's His Name. Servicemembers don't get to 0-6 (Colonel/Captain) in most nearly all cases after age 40. Not exactly inspired or accurate casting.

Most Americans don't really relaize how young military members joining really are when you see them face to face. They look like babies. I see them where I work and they are just kids....many don't even have facial hair. It's funny. That's why Hollywood casts older. I don't think that community really has a clue most of the time.

As for Iron Man, I liked the movie. Didn't LOVE it. I think RDJ was too old. Stane never worked for Stark, he had his own company in competition with Stark. Even still, in the Top 5 greatest comic movies. That's another topic.

You guys are great.:cap:

From the bio printed with the Captain America omnibus....."In Early 1940 he tried to enlist and was denied due to his inability to pass physical requirements and was invited to Operation Rebirth."

According to the bio he recieved the SSS in 1940.

The 616 Cap costume was designed by Steve himself.

When America entered the war Cap and Bucky joined the Invaders.

In late April 1945 is when Cap was frozen

In Mythos:Captain America written by Paul Jenkins it talks about Cap's ability to learn very fast due to the SSS

[Thundercrack85]

I haven't seen it mentioned, but it's worth noting that Steve Rogers is Irish American, both his parents were Irish immigrants. He's also Christian, and by most accounts religious. But I don't believe it's been stated specifically what kind of Christian he is.

Given his parents, and his surroundings Steve Rogers probably had a pretty crappy childhood. Father died at young age, and his mother in his teens from pneumonia. And he grew up in the height of the Great Depression. Hopefully some of that will be seen in the movie.

As for rank, for the sake of convenience and clarity, they'll probably just give him the rank of captain. He's about the right age anyway, if the movie is set during WWII.

[blackbyrd]

Again, you guys are great. I didn't know his birthdate or that he was Irish. Both of those would be great elements to explore in the movie.

As for him creating his own costume, that just is a mistake on the comic creator's part. The Army doesn't let any creativity in their ranks. That costume/uniform would have been a few miles of red tape to get created.

What would really be ineteresting to see both in the comics and in the movie would be two uniforms for Cap. The uniform he normally wears to go into battle (the 616 duds) and a dress uniform for ceremonies where he gets to wear his various decorations and such. Again, it would make for a cool element and more realism. Each soldier has his Battle Dress Uniform (BDU) and Class A's, as well as Mess Dress which is the really formal tuxedo style uniform. It would be great if Cap had all three.....

As for his rank...I'd love to get some real hard facts on this. It clearly says that Cap enlisted. You can't be an officer (Captain) and enlist...you have to get a Commission. My best gues is that he was actually a private in rank and the Captain was an honorary title given to him for his role in the propoganda. Again, this would be a really cool element to explore in the movie. All those little facts are what really give these characters depth and not just some silly comic 1 dimensional charactor.

Great discussion...:cap:

[roach]

The military has been know to allow their personel to decide on uniforms...recently the Navy has changed several of their uniforms based on what we wanted in our uniforms. Several of the special forces groups work with weapons manufacturers to develop weapons specificly made for that group.

Again I havent seen anything that states a rank for Steve Rogers. In the comic Captain America and the Falcon, around 2002 i believe he goes to a court marshal and is refered to as Captain Steve Rogers. He had a cover in the US Army during WW2 as a Private.
Also it isnt impossible to be an enlisted person and then become an officer

[blackbyrd]

To become an officer you need a commission. In the Navy you can be a Limited Duty Officer an dbecome an officer but this comes after years and years (like 20) in a specific field. So, in only the LDO case, it is impossible. What a lot of guys do is go Mustang...enlist and then seek a commission after they are in in a variety of ways but tey still need a commission.

The changes that military members ask for are approved by much higher groups of officers who give the ok. One can ask but really the decision is up to the "Brass".

An example, Marine Force Recon wanted their own special pin, like the Navy SEALS but the CMC's office said no because they were Marines despite being MARSOC...

[blackbyrd]

Oh, I think regarding his rank...I think that is just a mistake of the comic writers who were probaly unfamiliar with the facts surrounding the issue. One of the things that is great about Cap is that he is like Batman, a regular guy (for the most part)...so having real world facts really gives these movies a great foundation...

[roach]

To become an officer you need a commission. In the Navy you can be a Limited Duty Officer an dbecome an officer but this comes after years and years (like 20) in a specific field. So, in only the LDO case, it is impossible. What a lot of guys do is go Mustang...enlist and then seek a commission after they are in in a variety of ways but tey still need a commission.

The changes that military members ask for are approved by much higher groups of officers who give the ok. One can ask but really the decision is up to the "Brass".

An example, Marine Force Recon wanted their own special pin, like the Navy SEALS but the CMC's office said no because they were Marines despite being MARSOC...

field commissions for enlisted to officer werent unheard of in WW2....lest not forget that Nick Fury started out as a Sgt and became a Colonel

[blackbyrd]

I'm sure the rules were different in WWII. Still, if Fury went from E-5 to O-6 in the Army, which is a huge jump, don't think you think Cap would be a Major by now if he had n actual rank. Especially for all of the things he's accomplished. As a Captain, he's only an O-3 in the Army. Which makes me think even more that the Captain is an honorary title and not a rank. He never gets promoted like Nick Fury....hhmmmm.....

[Thundercrack85]

We have to keep in mind that back then writers didn't have things like Wikipedia and google at their disposal.

There's a few things to consider when it comes to rank. Besides regular promotions, posthumous promotions may also come into play. Especially since he "died" such a heroic "death", and was so liked. Normally that wouldn't be an issue but it's different if you're a war hero who's been thought dead for 65 years.

For actual uniform (not costume) there's also awards to consider. I wouldn't be the least surprised if Cap has a medal of honor. Not to mention foreign awards.

[blackbyrd]

Even more reason to start to clarify some things with regardto accuracy. Cap's a great character that doesn't really get the deference he deserves. Not like the big boys, Sidey, bats, Supes, WW, etc.

I have heard of those promotions but Cap has been Cap since day 1 and never gets promoted...

As for his ceremonial uniform, he would still need a mask component. He probably has all kinds of decorations including a few MOH's, Silver Stars, Bronze Stars, campaign ribbons, foreign decorations, etc. He probably even has a few "black" decorations. It would be cool to see an artists rendering of what a Cap ceremonial uniform might look like for when he would be honored publicly.

[roach]

Army dress uniform

[chris moore]

All very interesting and a fun read. But man alive.... talk about taking the imagination out of it.

Superman has no standing in any military - but every member of all the armed forces pretty much jumps on his say so. Duke is a First Sergeant and has refused repeated officer commissions, but all the officers bar Hawk follow his orders. Same goes for Cap, actual Captaincy or not.

I also read at one point that Cap in addition to the highest security clearance in the military and many branches of the government, also permanently holds the often very temporary rank of Field Marshall, thereby getting around any of those tricky "I'm a General and I won't take orders from no superhero" issues.

Further, it has long been established (which is the only fact in the history blurb above I openly question and therefore take the rest with a grain of salt) that Cap's shield is not an alloy of Vibranium and Adamantium, but an alloy of Vibranium and Iron. The Doc's attempts to replicate the process are what resulted in what is now termed Adamantium.

[roach]

well I disagree that its taking the imagination out of it. Cap's origin is very vague. The very next panel after getting the SSS he's fully trained and in costume. We dont who trained him...these were the questions I wanted to answer in my fan fic Codename:Captain America.

[jab1118]

well I disagree that its taking the imagination out of it. Cap's origin is very vague. The very next panel after getting the SSS he's fully trained and in costume. We dont who trained him...these were the questions I wanted to answer in my fan fic Codename:Captain America.

To be honest i dont care. I would prefer that as soon as he becomes Cap they skip all the how he was trained stuff its boreing. Just tell me its a year later or something and move on. All that matters is that he learned it all. Some things are better left just accepted. I dont need explanation of how hulk becomes hulk, there was an accident now he becomes hulk. How exactly does Ironman suit work again, I dont care it just does. So how did Cap learn all that tecnique and training he had the SSS and he learns faster then most give him a year and hes the most bad ass man alive.

[roach]

im not even talking about movie origins...in the comics is vague. I'd settle for a montage at least

[jab1118]

Id be okay with some sort of training montage that shows Cap picking things up and being perfect at them right away leaving his trainers in disbelief

[Thundercrack85]

They could do something like Batman Begins (yes, I know that's a reference run into the ground), where they go back and forth with flasbacks early on. Showing his early life, training and what not.

[blackbyrd]

Well, I do want ot see how and who trained him and how long it took to train him, etc. Those little details are what ground the story in relaity and then you can suspend reality when it comes ot Cap on certain levels. I think that is exactly why Batman Begins/TDK are so fantastic.

Up to now most comicbook movies were comicbook movies.

Nolan came along and made a movie that just happened to be about a comic character.

The more "real" it is, the greater it translates on screen. It's eaxtly why the FF movies were dogdoo.

I think it is universally accepted that when the source material is treated seriously, you get a better movie. Thatis why filming CAP like Saving Private Ryan and then after the freeze treating it like Blackhawk Down would be an amazing movie. It is grounded in reality.

As for the SHIELD...I think that is one of those things that has been retconned a dozen times. There are many sources that claim it was a hybrid of Vibranium and Adamantium. I think it needs to be both. The metallurgic properties of each are what make it "real" per se. The Adamantium makes it indestructible. The vibranium is what makes him be able to absorb impacts and not be thrown for a loop. That is why in the comics he can take a punch from the Hulk and still remain in the same place where as without the Shield he would be throw. The vibranium absorbs the imapct and distributes the force elsewhere. By explaining this, you make it more real.

There are two types of moviegoers, sophsticated ones and no-so sophisticated ones. By adding relaism, you appease the sophisticated ones and the no-so's will accept it because they just want to see a movie.

Not to beat a dead horse but see Batman Begins/TDK and Superman 1978. The other things that made both of these movies work what that they were filmed on location vice studio sets. Visually, they are different movies than Spiderman. You can totally see sound stage vice real world back drops.

Isn't that why the old trilogy Star Wars is better than new trilogy. The sets on SW were real vice digital animation. Consider also, the realism of Hoth (filmed in Greenand) where you could see the breath and they had to wear clothing in accordance with the environent vice Mustafar, the volcano planet where they didn't have to wear special suits in accordnce witht he climate. It just wasn't "real looking." It just didn't make any sense why they are affected by the cold but not by the heat of lava....dumb.

[roach]

The movie is reported to be like Indiana Jones with gadgets, and how is it gonna be like Blackhawk down when he'll be teaming up with a Thunder god and a man in flying armor

[Thundercrack85]

That is one thing that bugs me about the Avengers (Ultimates) is that they basically reduce distinct heroes to semi-generic team members. Kills a lot of their character and uniqueness.

I'd much rather see Cap have his own trilogy than him only having a single movie, and him spending the rest of his time vying for screen time against other characters in the Avengers.

As for "realism", It's all relevant really. As long as it's not contrived and looks good, it's fine by me. You can't get too realistic when you have a Norse thunder god on speed dial. But you can make it look realistic. It's all about presentation.

[chris moore]

Realism had its limits in my opinion. Grounded in reality by having explanations for things and not making his transition from the injection to the field one of mere days or something. But I don't want the harshness of war to be slammed into my face.

I like the premise of his learning skills faster than a damn computer brought up this month in Ultimate Avengers. So his receiving intensive training every minute of every day for a few weeks will eloquently display to us just how well the SSS prevents build up of fatigue poisons, and how fluidly he absorbs new skills and applies them and combines them. Done this way, I think it should be real time rather than intermittent flashbacks during, say, a heavy fire pinned down battle that the film begins in.

[Infinity9999x]

The more "real" it is, the greater it translates on screen. It's eaxtly why the FF movies were dogdoo.



Honestly, I get what you're saying, but it's completely off base. In fact, I would argue it's simply wrong.

The FF movies weren't unsuccessful because of their fantastical nature, they performed badly because they were badly written.

BB and TDK did as well as they have because they were very well written movies. And they're really not that realistic, they just implement elements of realism to give the movie a grittier style.

Movies like Spider-man 2 were also extremely successful, but very fantastical, and it was successful because it was a well written movie. (Even though I believe it's not the best Spider-man movie, it would be pointless to deny it's not a very well made movie.)

What makes a movie good is if it's a well made movie. Plain and simple, realism has nothing to do with it.

[souloffire]

Steve Rogers was born in New York City[FONT=Verdana] during the Depression and grew up a frail youth in a poor family.

Actually he would have been born before the Depression. Nice job, very informative.

[KatarHol]

well I disagree that its taking the imagination out of it. Cap's origin is very vague. The very next panel after getting the SSS he's fully trained and in costume. We dont who trained him...these were the questions I wanted to answer in my fan fic Codename:Captain America.
The Adventures of Captain America Sentinel of Liberty #1 details his training. By the looks of it,he was fully trained before he even got the serum. I love this mini-series,well,at least the first 3 and half issues when Kevin Maguire is drawing it. Before the serum,Cap would have been pretty deadly after all the training they put him through.

[chris moore]

Actually, thats true. There's nothing to say that Steve Rogers was recruited into the program then spent the next six months sat in a room reading, or sat in a lab undergoing blood tests and things. There's every chance they trained him in techniques as the most efficient way of getting the supersoldier program out on the field as soon as possible.

[Webhead2006]

you would think so. I wouldnt be against doing a short montage scenes after he gets SSS and before he goes into first mission to see what/how he was trained.

[Steve Holt]

what if the movie started with him falling into the ocean with the voice over of his letter to his gf. then the origin, training, etc etc.....up until the missile explosion and the voice over again, the movie being bookended. then after the credits in the present they are looking for him and they spot something in the ice/snow/water

[Thundercrack85]

what if the movie started with him falling into the ocean with the voice over of his letter to his gf. then the origin, training, etc etc.....up until the missile explosion and the voice over again, the movie being bookended. then after the credits in the present they are looking for him and they spot something in the ice/snow/water

That's not a bad idea at all. They could even go a bit further, and have it start out in the present with them finding him, and flashbacks from there.

Though I also like the idea of it starting out in the 30s (Great Depression-era New York City) with young Steve reading newsreels about the rise of the Nazis. Maybe even show a young, pre-Red Skull Johann Schmidt next to Hitler in a picture.

[Triad]

what if the movie started with him falling into the ocean with the voice over of his letter to his gf. then the origin, training, etc etc.....up until the missile explosion and the voice over again, the movie being bookended. then after the credits in the present they are looking for him and they spot something in the ice/snow/water
I like this idea too.

[Steve Holt]

i think cinematically it would look so different, falling for most of the voiceover, then hitting the water just before the voice says
"i know we'll see each other again, in this life or the next" as the photo floats away and steve falls futher out of focus in to the depths. then cue credits as white text over the underwater scenery, Marvel Studios Presents........etc etc.
then have the first scene after the credits start with water.
Like the camera pans out from a puddle just as an army jeep drives through it. then slowly moves back over the shoulder of a skinny and frail steve looking at the recruitment office.
-origin story
etc etc


Then end with him on the missile and it exploding, quick cuts of him falling, voice over of "This life or the next" as he falls into blackness.
-credits
start with the water again diver coming out of the water, taking of goggles, looking up. "I think we found something". camera slowly turns around to reveal Stark in a snow jacket looking at the diver with a smug look. "Someone get Captain Hook on the phone, we found his peter pan". or some kind of joke referencing the eye patch.
-end

the way they stark found steve's body, no matter how good stark is at maths will be questioned, to many variables. the best way to explain this and to incorporate the alternate opening of TIH is simple, and kills to birds with one stone. In which ever movie they want to do it in or even just as a teaser trailer for either Avengers or Cap. It would be a shame to waste the arctic footage.

- Six Months Ago pops up on screen (or whatever suits the timeline)
Have the arctic scene but splice in new footage of shield agents or hulkbusters following him for whatever reason, when it does the over head shot of him walking have it suddenly change to a computer screen and him being watched. have the agents watch him as he drops to his knees, Fury's or Ross' voice yelling over the earpieces "Contain the asset!".
Shot of agent running towards hulk, Shot of glacier collapsing.
Agent falls into water and washes up bearly concious and in a daze as the block of ice with rogers in it floats by. Office scene at Shield or SOCOM with Ross or Fury siting down discussing what he saw, the agent thinks he was seeing things. Ross/Fury looking him dead on....
"Mr Barton, What do you know about Captain America?"
-Quick Montage of shots from TFA:CA followed by coming soon or the release date.

wow some quick ideas turned into a movie treatment so quickly lol.

[Webhead2006]

so nice ideas.

[Steve Holt]

so nice ideas.

sucks that they probly won't ever use that artic footage, because it was so emotional and powerful

[Webhead2006]

totally it doesnt make sense really to use it since it was cut and isnt apart of the film. Plus we have no clue how joe wants to have cap frozen and if/how he is found if he is found in closing credit scene or something.

[Triad]

It's been a while since I watched it, but I remember thinking I was glad it was cut from TIH. It wasn't that great. (No disrespect to your opinion, Steve) Like I said, I haven't seen it for some time though, so maybe I'll pop it in again tonight for a second chance.

[jab1118]

Cool ideas but since this is the real world facts thread I will say that Cap needs to be on a plane carrying a missle that crashes him holding onto a missle is just not realistic. Also I think it would be better if it crashed on land not in water then he froze that way u dont have to deal with a drowning issue or the fact that he would not freeze into a block of ice underwater.

[Webhead2006]

well you kind just have him freeze on land cause he probably would have been found a few days later and not 70+ yrs later. That is why frozen under water or buried deep in group frozen works better.

[Steve Holt]

well you can only be so realistic, wouldn't his blood crystalize if he froze? it all comes down to what services the movie the best in the end

[Webhead2006]

well it counts on how the SSS effected his body and how he freezes.

[roach]

i dont see this movie being overly realistic...remember this movie is being described as Indiana Jones with gadgets

[Infinity9999x]

i dont see this movie being overly realistic...remember this movie is being described as Indiana Jones with gadgets

I agree. I don't really want it to get too realistic either. I wouldn't mind if it was more or less like Begins or TDK, which presented it's material in a way that it felt realistic, but still had very fantastical elements. With a more adventurous tone obviously.

[Triad]

i dont see this movie being overly realistic...remember this movie is being described as Indiana Jones with gadgets
That statement always bothered me. I mean other than his shield, what gadgets would Cap have? Probably a field medic kit and a 2-way radio, if anything else.

[jab1118]

well you kind just have him freeze on land cause he probably would have been found a few days later and not 70+ yrs later. That is why frozen under water or buried deep in group frozen works better.

You have him freeze on land then covered in snow during a blizzard. I just dont think water works cause one he would drown first, two things dont freeze like that under salt water, and three if he did go into the water he would be eaten by fish crabs bacteria you name it

[SpiderByte]

The Captain America GENIUS can't even spell "Canon" properly.

[roach]

That statement always bothered me. I mean other than his shield, what gadgets would Cap have? Probably a field medic kit and a 2-way radio, if anything else.

i think it would be more that the Red Skull and fellow Nazi scientists would use psuedo science....giant robots and deathrays...sort of like Skycaptain and the world of tomorrow

[Infinity9999x]

i think it would be more that the Red Skull and fellow Nazi scientists would use psuedo science....giant robots and deathrays...sort of like Skycaptain and the world of tomorrow

And depending on how much Ultimate influence they decide to go with, possible alien tech aiding the Nazi's as well.

[roach]

exactly...i think this movie is going to be as real as the Spider-man or Iron Man movies. Yes there will be some realism but not at the levels of Nolans Batfilms.

[Infinity9999x]

exactly...i think this movie is going to be as real as the Spider-man or Iron Man movies. Yes there will be some realism but not at the levels of Nolans Batfilms.

Iron Man seems to be about the perfect blend. I want to see some epic fight scenes with Cap against the skrull tech/skrull soldiers themselves, and of course the Red Skull.

Edit--I just thought of an awesome image of Cap fighting Red Skull on a catwalk with an entire warehouse of alien/nazi tech sprawling out beneath them, as Cap tries to stop some kind of super-bomb from being launched at the US.

I would love to see a scene like that, especially if they film the fight between Cap and Skull right. Two Super soldiers going at it could be awesome to watch.

[Webhead2006]

i dont know if they could use skrull stuff at all. Since skrulls fall under FF stuff i believe and fox still has FF at this time. From all we know.

[Infinity9999x]

i dont know if they could use skrull stuff at all. Since skrulls fall under FF stuff i believe and fox still has FF at this time. From all we know.

Well crud. That sucks:csad:

Oh well.

[Webhead2006]

well i rather stick to regular old nazis and not get aliens present in 40s, better left for present day lol in my opinion that is.

[Thundercrack85]

They might be able to get away with using them, if they go with the "Chitauri" label, instead of calling them Srkulls.

I wouldn't mind seeing them. Could even be used to explain how Red Skull survived into the 21st century.

[Gamma Goliath]

nah, i want nazi's, no skrulls or chitauri, just nazi's and red skull, and maybe baron zemo or von structor

[roach]

They might be able to get away with using them, if they go with the "Chitauri" label, instead of calling them Srkulls.

I wouldn't mind seeing them. Could even be used to explain how Red Skull survived into the 21st century.

same way Nick Fury did....Infinity Formula

[Thundercrack85]

same way Nick Fury did....Infinity Formula

I can understand if some older fans don't want aliens, but the Infinity Formula? I guess it could work, but you'd have to explain why the Red Skull hasn't really done anything in over 65 years, until after they unfroze Cap. Unless someone else has been dealing with the Red Skull in Cap's absence. Or just explain what the heck Skull has been doing for the last six and a half decades.

[SpiderByte]

Skrulls are mainly FF turf, but i'd be sort of okay with them. Depends on how they show them. (Chitauri sounds AWESOME)

I wonder if, at the end, they'll show him getting frozen? Then they can flash forward to modern era and have the ice crack or somethin.

[roach]

I can understand if some older fans don't want aliens, but the Infinity Formula? I guess it could work, but you'd have to explain why the Red Skull hasn't really done anything in over 65 years, until after they unfroze Cap. Unless someone else has been dealing with the Red Skull in Cap's absence. Or just explain what the heck Skull has been doing for the last six and a half decades.

In a movie where a Super Soldier Serum makes a guy the pinnacle of human perfection I dont see why a Infinity Formula that ages guys slowly outside the realm of believeablity.
Explain the Red Skull the way they did it in the 80's movie. That he was active and behind the scenes causing anarchy....killed JFK, MLK...stuff like that

[Webhead2006]

well easiest thing for red skull is to for some reason to be put into suspended animation maybe something is wrong with him if they go with him having some hybrid take on the SSS. Or maybe he could have just went into hiding poping up from time to time but no one knew it was the skull, maybe he went by some other identities.

[Thundercrack85]

In a movie where a Super Soldier Serum makes a guy the pinnacle of human perfection I dont see why a Infinity Formula that ages guys slowly outside the realm of believeablity.
Explain the Red Skull the way they did it in the 80's movie. That he was active and behind the scenes causing anarchy....killed JFK, MLK...stuff like that

I suppose that's fair, but i just see the whole "drug that keeps you young" as a bit contrived. But it's reasonable in the established universe.

I suppose cloning bodies could also work, and there's some precedent for it in the comics.

How old is Red Skull in the comics anyway circa WWII?

[roach]

its the easiest approach and its from the comics.

[Steve Holt]

i dont know if they could use skrull stuff at all. Since skrulls fall under FF stuff i believe and fox still has FF at this time. From all we know.


Mavel owns the Skrulls!!!

Fox has the rights to the Super-Skrull

[Webhead2006]

you sure could i would think all skrulls fall under the ff film rights. like how dd rights include electra/kingpin.

[[A]]

^ that's explained in a recent CHUD article.. let me look for it

edit: found it

More digging turned up the fact that Marvel Studios owns the Skrull race, while Fox own the Super Skrull.

http://www.chud.com/articles/articles/20263/1/COMIC-CON-09-WILL-THE-AVENGERS-BATTLE-THE-SKRULLS/Page1.html