How To Correct a Misconception Made by Superman Returns

[markaudette]

I'm watching Superman Returns as I write this. And there's something about the movie that has botrhered me since the movie was released. A misconception that I desperately hope the next writers do not repeat in the forthcoming movie ...if there ever is going to be one.

Do NOT write Superman like he's some kind of trophy collecting dust on a mantlepiece. That is to say, do not make the mistake of writing Superman only as some disembodied demi-god. Do not make the mistake that Superman Returns made - the entire movie danced around Superman without spending much effort on Kal-el himself. Just as if Superman was everyone's prized posession that sat stale underneath a glass dome in the middle of the room. As everyone danced and fluttered around him, all eyes fixed on Superman. But not really interacting with him. As if the movie was more interested in dealing with the CONCEPT of Superman's world rather than the man himself.

The reason I chose to post this here is that I desperately hope someone reads this and takes away my one true hope in the next Superman movie - please, please write Superman's character as if he's a real breathing person. Of all the characters in Superman Returns, Brandon Routh had just about the least amount of lines in the entire movie. Do not be afraid to let Clark speak! Do not be afraid to let Superman's humanity show through his superpowers. There's a scene in Superman II that perfectly sums up what I want every writer to recapture in Superman - the scene where the bus full of commuters is thrown at Superman. You could see for one terrible moment the very human-like panic in Christopher Reeve's performance.

...okay, okay. Maybe it was the weakness in Brandon Routh's acting. Maybe it was a weakness in the script and screenplay. Maybe it was a weakness in the directing. There's no way I can say whose fault it was since I'm just a lowly fanboy sitting here at 4 in the morning watching movies.

Clark may be a Kryptonian. But he's a man who wears many hats. At the core of who he is, is a son to two families, a small town farm boy at heart. And he's a stern demi-god saviour of us all, a stone hearted Kryptonian, a lover and a goofy reporter. All at once. It should be fun watching him attempt to be all these things at once . As if you're watching him choose these proverbial "hats" like he's trying to use a slide rule to to solve a math problem.

In short, don't be afraid to give him lines. Real meat-and-bones dialog.

Show him mad.

Show him happy.

Show fear in him.

Show desire, lust in him. Don't be afraid to show Clark as a hunk.

Show his emotional weaknesses.

Show his strength.

Show his courage.

Show him as a man.

Yes, As a Demi-God.

Show him as your uncle. Your brother. Your Dad. Your teacher.

Show him growing as a person.

Show his wisdom.

But dog gone-it, make Superman chew some dialog for once.

[Timstuff]

Agreed and agreed.

[GreenKToo]

As do I...very well put sir.

[[A]]

Good post.

[[A]]

Good post.

[markaudette]

Thank you for the kind words.

[The Guard]

I think SUPERMAN RETURNS showed a lot of that stuff, just not very in depth. But most movies don't go real indepth. I agree, Superman was a bit detached as a character in SUPERMAN RETURNS, which needs to be corrected in future films.

[NotFadeAway]

I think SUPERMAN RETURNS showed a lot of that stuff, just not very in depth. But most movies don't go real indepth. I agree, Superman was a bit detached as a character in SUPERMAN RETURNS, which needs to be corrected in future films.

I actually have to agree with this.

Superman Returns TRIED to show these things, it was just done in a very lethargic, flat manner with an actor that quite frankly didn't have the range to pull off these elements. And in my opinion, a good majority of the male model actors out there(Welling) won't have the range either. Thats why I'm willing to sacrifice a bit with the "look" to get an actor with top notch range and ability.

[AnorexicBatman]

We need something like this as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoJ2Bd41zsw

[GaiusBaltar]

Yes, totally agreed. Maybe it was a fault on Routh's acting skills and Singer made the best he could with him. Hopefully he will have grown as an actor for the sequel. Drop the halo, put some real emotion.

[Fresh Prince]

I rather they did Superman Returns as a stand alone film like no relations to the original...But with Superman as a pro in crime fighting.

[Blackman]

Complete cosign with OP

[markaudette]

I wholeheartedly agree with Fresh Prince.

Really, I have to resist the urge to talk about all the sore points in Superman Returns. Something I sometimes fail to do is give Bryan Singer the credit he deserves. He's a brilliant director who has a style of storytelling that is uniquely his. And I have to thank him for at least loving Superman as much as we do.

By no means do I not hate Tom Welling but I honestly think a fresh plank of Eastern Pine could act with the same level of adeptness as Tom Welling.

And dear Lord, I really feel sorry for the director of the next movie. He or she has to find an actor who is handsome, towering and who can act. All at once.

[Fresh Prince]

How can Superman be an uncle?

[markaudette]

Sorry.

Uncle, as in avuncular - a mentor.

I should have said it that way - a stern, loving mentor.

[Fresh Prince]

No the uncle thing was cool actually since uncle's are the coolest family members.

[Webhead2006]

oh totally i want to see clark kent be the real person, have that humanity and struggles of human life. While being a super powered "god like" icon and all that. That is why i would like clark to be the real person, and superman is just what he can do.

[bigbluefan]

Excellent post markaudette http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/icon14.gif. Singer had scenes where we would have gotten a glimpse of Superman's mindset but those scenes ended up on the cutting room floor eg. The Return to Krypton scenes, reading the papers in the barn, its not easy keeping secrets, even scrapping Superman showing rage when he saw the crystals were gone :cmad: If he left those things in, it would have given us a new insight into the character, what its like to be him, the man underneath. :doh:

[bigbluefan]

oh totally i want to see clark kent be the real person, have that humanity and struggles of human life. While being a super powered "god like" icon and all that. That is why i would like clark to be the real person, and superman is just what he can do.

I totally want to see them approach the next movie with Clark Kent be the real person, Superman is more than a one dimensional character.

[Webhead2006]

totally that is something i did like in lois and clark and for smallville that clark is the real person, and the hero is just what he can do and wants to do.

[Fresh Prince]

Can we get an actor who is bulky but can act to play Clark/Superman.

[Webhead2006]

well like supermike has pointed out, if we got someone like a clint walker in his prime he could easily still make a reason looking clark kent look. I do want to see someone with a good muscle mass/size on him. But like others have said we dont need to see roid size guys. Sure it would be great to see how that would look. But most of those guys are a bit to extreme.

[mego joe]

I wholeheartedly agree with Fresh Prince.

Really, I have to resist the urge to talk about all the sore points in Superman Returns. Something I sometimes fail to do is give Bryan Singer the credit he deserves. He's a brilliant director who has a style of storytelling that is uniquely his. And I have to thank him for at least loving Superman as much as we do.

By no means do I not hate Tom Welling but I honestly think a fresh plank of Eastern Pine could act with the same level of adeptness as Tom Welling.

And dear Lord, I really feel sorry for the director of the next movie. He or she has to find an actor who is handsome, towering and who can act. All at once.

Nice original post- I too have to resist the urge to 'talk about all the sore points in SR.'

[GreenKToo]

My preference would be for them to get an actor that has some real experience so he can carry himself well.
One that maybe has been in a few films already as a minor character, and one that has acted on TV a good bit. known, just not WELL known if that makes sense.

IMVHO I dont think they'll be looking for a reeve or routh clone the next time around,
so at this point I don't think you can rule anyone in or out as long as they are the right height and build.

[afan]

well like supermike has pointed out, if we got someone like a clint walker in his prime he could easily still make a reason looking clark kent look. I do want to see someone with a good muscle mass/size on him. But like others have said we dont need to see roid size guys. Sure it would be great to see how that would look. But most of those guys are a bit to extreme.

While I understand where this is coming from, Clint Walker is at 6'6", just too big.

His build on a 6'3" frame would be ideal tho.

[SuperMike335!!]

While I understand where this is coming from, Clint Walker is at 6'6", just too big.

His build on a 6'3" frame would be ideal tho.


6'6" is the top end of my range for Superman. Its about as tall as you could get away with but it would still have worked.

By wearing flat sole shoes, and slouching as Clark he would seem no taller than 6'3".

In some ways Walkers 6'6" would have been an Asset, because by hiding a few inches as Clark (slouching, and flat sole shoes) there would seem to be a bigger contrast with the size of Clark and Superman, than if both were 6'3".

Sourcebook stats are rarely used by comic book artists anyway. They mostly just draw Superman they way they feel he should look. Alex Ross draws Superman looking easily 6'6".

In most videos from Cheyenne Walker does not tower over everyone else that much either. The camera angle can easily conceal or add to height.

Regardless, its just number, when you view old Cheyenne Clips on youtube you will find he does not look freakishly tall.

[Webhead2006]

My preference would be for them to get an actor that has some real experience so he can carry himself well.
One that maybe has been in a few films already as a minor character, and one that has acted on TV a good bit. known, just not WELL known if that makes sense.

IMVHO I dont think they'll be looking for a reeve or routh clone the next time around,
so at this point I don't think you can rule anyone in or out as long as they are the right height and build.
This is how i would like for it to go to next go around.

[Fresh Prince]

My preference would be for them to get an actor that has some real experience so he can carry himself well.
One that maybe has been in a few films already as a minor character, and one that has acted on TV a good bit. known, just not WELL known if that makes sense.

IMVHO I dont think they'll be looking for a reeve or routh clone the next time around,
so at this point I don't think you can rule anyone in or out as long as they are the right height and build.

How known you want them to be only reconized in US and Canada?

[SuperMike335!!]

How known you want them to be only reconized in US and Canada?

What am you saying? :huh:

http://www.batman-superman.com/superman/img/bizzaro.gif

[Webhead2006]

well they should have some tv work, maybe done a series of indie films, or a few bigger films but hasnt hit it big yet. Like a chris pine for example. he has done alot of films, but Trek was his huge breakout film. Someone along that lines of semi known is good for me i think.

[Fresh Prince]

What am you saying? :huh:

http://www.batman-superman.com/superman/img/bizzaro.gif

Do you want them to be known like only in the US...Thats what I'm saying....Cause you said you want known actors not well known ones.

[DavidTyler]

I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS ALL ALONG

Superman needs to have 'feet of clay'. Clark needs to be more than just a mask for Superman. He needs to be a fully realized human being so that Superman can be a fully realized human being.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Unless they make a relentlessly dumb fun movie with lots of action that clicks with audiences, (AKA, Transformers) they can't afford to make Superman/Clark Kent a cypher again.

The next actor needs to have more raw charisma than Routh if they are going to portray the character so...er unearthly. I perfer they get away from that though.

And yes, I'm well aware that this is all my opinion!

[GreenKToo]

FNJ disagrees with this, and he prolly has good reason, but since we really don't know whats going on all we can do is speculate. I think at this point they should prolly get a known actor. Not a superstar mind you, but certainly someone that has acted in more projects than just ''soaps'' or commericials. He'll need to be able to carry himself and make us believe he is clark/superman.

I think it needs to be an actor that has already been in a few films and maybe in a few TV series....say someone like a kiefer sutherland, and before some of you start screaming ''NOOOO!!'' he's just an example, so breath. ( I do think he'd make a helluva Metallo though)

[DavidTyler]

FNJ disagrees with this, and he prolly has good reason, but since we really don't know whats going on all we can do is speculate. I think at this point they should prolly get a known actor. Not a superstar mind you, but certainly someone that has acted in more projects than just ''soaps'' or commericials. He'll need to be able to carry himself and make us believe he is clark/superman.

I think it needs to be an actor that has already been in a few films and maybe in a few TV series....say someone like a kiefer sutherland, and before some of you start screaming ''NOOOO!!'' he's just an example, so breath. ( I do think he'd make a helluva Metallo though)

Not to digress and make this into another 'Casting Superman' thread, I have to say I disagree.

It doesn't matter where the actor got their start, they need to have chops and I'd prefer not to see someone in the role that makes me forget I'm watching Superman and not Keifer Sutherland's latest movie.

I do agree that a huge part of the problem is the disconnected way Routh played (either thru his own initiative or Singer's direction) Superman. Clark Kent was not raised as an alien. He was raised human and all of the foibles of being human should be evident in the character. He was not raised as Superman ... in fact it wasn't even a daydream when he was growing up. He was raised as a confused young human who had to hide the unusual things he could do. - but still - the operative word there is 'human'. He had the best upbringing but that doesn't mean he doesn't have all the same emotions and ability to makes mistakes that we all share.

Here I go pontificating again.

[GreenKToo]

That's my whole point though. HOW is the guy gonna have the chops unless he has substantial experience? Sure, they could get lucky and hire an unknown that gives an oscar caliber performance. I could also win the lottery tomorrow.

[Webhead2006]

i agree greenktoo it shouldnt be someone huge Alist type like a brad pitt/matt damon/etc.... actor. It should be someone who hasnt hit the big time yet. Done various tv show roles, some indie films, maybe been minor/supporting role in some big films. So we know he has alot of range and what not in his acting.

[SuperMike335!!]

　
I think he means that skill and experience are not always one and the same.

They could get someone fresh out of acting school, who just has great talent.

Even someone who has done stage and theatre acting, or even small parts as character roles on TV shows. Hugh Jackman was a virtual unknown until he got the part for Wolverine, next thing you know he is a star. I think they got him doing song and dance at some stage theatre Australia.

On top of that, they may be perfect for Clark and Superman both, but no good at any other type of character.

I say they look far and wide, and just have the right criteria for casting.
Experience is not so relevant as is talent.

Heck there are some very bad actors, who have charisma, and lots of experience, but could not blend into a role to save their life.

So what we really need is talent, and the right kind of talent for the role.

[Webhead2006]

i agree there a bit they should look at their acting talent. Probably looking at theatre people would be a good step. But i too hope they have a big/wide testing for clark/superman and have a clear cut list on what they want in looks and skills.

[Webhead2006]

i agree there a bit they should look at their acting talent. Probably looking at theatre people would be a good step. But i too hope they have a big/wide testing for clark/superman and have a clear cut list on what they want in looks and skills.

[KalMart]

I'm watching Superman Returns as I write this. And there's something about the movie that has botrhered me since the movie was released. A misconception that I desperately hope the next writers do not repeat in the forthcoming movie ...if there ever is going to be one.

Do NOT write Superman like he's some kind of trophy collecting dust on a mantlepiece. That is to say, do not make the mistake of writing Superman only as some disembodied demi-god. Do not make the mistake that Superman Returns made - the entire movie danced around Superman without spending much effort on Kal-el himself. Just as if Superman was everyone's prized posession that sat stale underneath a glass dome in the middle of the room. As everyone danced and fluttered around him, all eyes fixed on Superman. But not really interacting with him. As if the movie was more interested in dealing with the CONCEPT of Superman's world rather than the man himself.

The reason I chose to post this here is that I desperately hope someone reads this and takes away my one true hope in the next Superman movie - please, please write Superman's character as if he's a real breathing person. Of all the characters in Superman Returns, Brandon Routh had just about the least amount of lines in the entire movie. Do not be afraid to let Clark speak! Do not be afraid to let Superman's humanity show through his superpowers. There's a scene in Superman II that perfectly sums up what I want every writer to recapture in Superman - the scene where the bus full of commuters is thrown at Superman. You could see for one terrible moment the very human-like panic in Christopher Reeve's performance.

...okay, okay. Maybe it was the weakness in Brandon Routh's acting. Maybe it was a weakness in the script and screenplay. Maybe it was a weakness in the directing. There's no way I can say whose fault it was since I'm just a lowly fanboy sitting here at 4 in the morning watching movies.

Clark may be a Kryptonian. But he's a man who wears many hats. At the core of who he is, is a son to two families, a small town farm boy at heart. And he's a stern demi-god saviour of us all, a stone hearted Kryptonian, a lover and a goofy reporter. All at once. It should be fun watching him attempt to be all these things at once . As if you're watching him choose these proverbial "hats" like he's trying to use a slide rule to to solve a math problem.

In short, don't be afraid to give him lines. Real meat-and-bones dialog.

Show him mad.

Show him happy.

Show fear in him.

Show desire, lust in him. Don't be afraid to show Clark as a hunk.

Show his emotional weaknesses.

Show his strength.

Show his courage.

Show him as a man.

Yes, As a Demi-God.

Show him as your uncle. Your brother. Your Dad. Your teacher.

Show him growing as a person.

Show his wisdom.

But dog gone-it, make Superman chew some dialog for once.

And if they can get around to it....show him as a Supehero doing Superhero stuff. If SR had more of that, I doubt the rest of what it didn't do would have been as much of an issue.

[Fresh Prince]

　
I think he means that skill and experience are not always one and the same.

They could get someone fresh out of acting school, who just has great talent.

Even someone who has done stage and theatre acting, or even small parts as character roles on TV shows. Hugh Jackman was a virtual unknown until he got the part for Wolverine, next thing you know he is a star. I think they got him doing song and dance at some stage theatre Australia.

On top of that, they may be perfect for Clark and Superman both, but no good at any other type of character.

I say they look far and wide, and just have the right criteria for casting.
Experience is not so relevant as is talent.

Heck there are some very bad actors, who have charisma, and lots of experience, but could not blend into a role to save their life.

So what we really need is talent, and the right kind of talent for the role.


You think they take a chance on soemone coming out of acting school? Who had no expierence of acting but training in school? I mean if the person has great acting skills go for it but doubt Hollywood take chances....They afraid too these days.....And Superman should not be a dumb fun movie like Transformers.

[Ita-KalEl]

IMO a Superman cameo in a successful Green Lantern movie would be a good restart for the franchise.

[RachelDawes]

And if they can get around to it....show him as a Supehero doing Superhero stuff. If SR had more of that, I doubt the rest of what it didn't do would have been as much of an issue.

Obviously we want to see Superman do superheroic things, but if the characterization isn't there then it might as well be about some other hero. We're Superman fans so we want to see the character done justice along with the action.

You think they take a chance on soemone coming out of acting school? Who had no expierence of acting but training in school? I mean if the person has great acting skills go for it but doubt Hollywood take chances....They afraid too these days.....And Superman should not be a dumb fun movie like Transformers.

They've already cast inexperienced actors twice as Superman. They could do it again.

[Webhead2006]

i still say the clark kent cameo is likely not going to make it into the shooting script or in the film. We still dont know whats up with all the legal stuff, and even if that wasnt a problem. There is still the issue they have no writers/directors/producers lined up or have picked a clear cut direction they want to go in.

[SuperMike335!!]

You think they take a chance on soemone coming out of acting school? Who had no expierence of acting but training in school? I mean if the person has great acting skills go for it but doubt Hollywood take chances....They afraid too these days.....And Superman should not be a dumb fun movie like Transformers.


If the guys gives an audition and floors them with a Prefect Clark and Superman, and just happens to have a lot of talent, they might.

Offhand, I'd also like the guy to have some experience too, but not be such a known face that when we see him we are just seeing "so and so's newest role".

As has been noted by Rachel, has been done twice in the past.

[Fresh Prince]

What someone said earlier in Superman making a camoe appearance in a GL film can be a way to jump start all of this...Also him making a camoe appearance in other DC hero movies like Flash if they ever make one, Wonder Women, Martian Manhunter, Lobo.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

You think they take a chance on soemone coming out of acting school? Who had no expierence of acting but training in school? I mean if the person has great acting skills go for it but doubt Hollywood take chances....They afraid too these days.....And Superman should not be a dumb fun movie like Transformers.Clearfully read my post before you respond.

[KalMart]

Obviously we want to see Superman do superheroic things, but if the characterization isn't there then it might as well be about some other hero. We're Superman fans so we want to see the character done justice along with the action.

He's not exactly a Dostoevsky character. :O But the more exciting and engaging they make the big stuff, the more interesting the little stuff he does and says will be.

[markaudette]

Superman may not exactly a Dostoevsky character, but a Superman movie should, in part should always be about morality.

Jor-el: "You must not interfere with human history."

or

Clark: "All those powers, all those things I can do and I couldn't even save him."

Superman may not be a very complex person but the universe has become extroidnarily complex because of his existance on Earth.

And, as a side note, because DC formed their own movie studio like Marvel Entertainment, so help me God there is no reason whatsoever why Superman can't make an appearance in other DC movies. Like it or not we DO have a Superman for right now. Personally, I think we're lucky to have a Superman actor primed and ready ready to don the cape again if need be.

[KalMart]

Superman may not exactly a Dostoevsky character, but a Superman movie should, in part should always be about morality.

Jor-el: "You must not interfere with human history."

or

Clark: "All those powers, all those things I can do and I couldn't even save him."

Superman may not be a very complex person but the universe has become extroidnarily complex because of his existance on Earth.

Which, again, could apply to any Superhero. The more you try and make him stand out from a character standpoint, I believe the more it's overthought and forced, and takes away from the entertainment factor in a movie. Hit some good key points with the characterization, but keep things moving along with good energy and impact. Let the movie experience stand out, and then people will naturally look deeper and draw more out of the character.

[Fresh Prince]

Clearfully read my post before you respond.

I did not say you said that, just replied to you saying unless you want Supes to be that in which I was saying Superman should not be a dumb fun action flick like Transformers....Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Webhead2006]

sure dc has been reformed into DCE but there is still no solid plans or directions going for ww/flash/aquaman/etc.... characters. Then with superman with all the legal stuff that is a factor in why nothing is going on with the character for film right? So why would they want to put a superman cameo in another film when they dont have a set actor or a set plan to go on with superman in the future. It would be a waste to go with one guy/look but then when the whole legal stuff is over and a film to happen it ends up being a totally different superman and look and all that.

[Fresh Prince]

Why not make a made for tv movie then since they cannot make a movie.

[Blackman]

please no TV movie. I really dont see any benefit in it at all.

[Webhead2006]

made for tv movie for superman, well if they have so much trouble trying to do a big budget film i doubt a tv movie would happen. Superman is just such a mess right now which sucks alot darn all the legal troubles and then the execs cant decide on things.

[Fresh Prince]

Well their goes the tv movie.

[RachelDawes]

He's not exactly a Dostoevsky character. :O

One can depict Superman's strength, courage, and wisdom like the OP wanted without making him a Dostoevsky character. Without that strength, courage, and wisdom he's just some generic superhero.

But the more exciting and engaging they make the big stuff, the more interesting the little stuff he does and says will be.

Yep, but the little stuff has to be there.

[Nightwing1977]

Why not make a made for tv movie then since they cannot make a movie.

The problem is budget. We need special effects that look amazing & not fake looking.

[KalMart]

One can depict Superman's strength, courage, and wisdom like the OP wanted without making him a Dostoevsky character. Without that strength, courage, and wisdom he's just some generic superhero.
All superheroes are pretty generic in terms of movies except to those who follow them avidly. How much of that internal stuff can you pack into a 2-hr period? Just enough to give the character a personality and purpose...hopefully unique to them...while you give the audience a fun ride that's always moving forward. Better yet, show his strength, courage and wisdom with what he does...moreso than what he thinks/says/desires/laments/ponders/etc.

Yep, but the little stuff has to be there.
A little is fine...but if Supes fans are looking to translate what they feel the character is 'on the inside' and all that....it'd probably take more than a few films unless you're just going to make them ponderous character-studies. And again....we're not talking Dostoevsky here. Gotta keep things moving and include just enough in there for those who are looking for it, so long as we don't have to pause for it to come across. Shouldn't be that hard with a character like Superman.

[RachelDawes]

All superheroes are pretty generic in terms of movies except to those who follow them avidly. How much of that internal stuff can you pack into a 2-hr period? Just enough to give the character a personality and purpose...hopefully unique to them...while you give the audience a fun ride that's always moving forward. Better yet, show his strength, courage and wisdom with what he does...moreso than what he thinks/says/desires/laments/ponders/etc.

Which, as far as I can tell, is all that the OP is asking for.

A little is fine...but if Supes fans are looking to translate what they feel the character is 'on the inside' and all that....it'd probably take more than a few films unless you're just going to make them ponderous character-studies. And again....we're not talking Dostoevsky here. Gotta keep things moving and include just enough in there for those who are looking for it, so long as we don't have to pause for it to come across. Shouldn't be that hard with a character like Superman.

A BB-style movie that blends action and character would be fine with me. Exploring Superman's personality, allowing the audience to grow and learn with him, would be the best aspect of an origin movie IMO. I think all of us are thinking in terms of a trilogy so anything not covered by the first movie could be depicted in future movies.

[KalMart]

Which, as far as I can tell, is all that the OP is asking for.
Never said he wasn't. At the same time, it's not like SR didn't do what he was asking either....it just didn't do it well, and offered very little energy outside of it.

A BB-style movie that blends action and character would be fine with me. Exploring Superman's personality, allowing the audience to grow and learn with him, would be the best aspect of an origin movie IMO. I think all of us are thinking in terms of a trilogy so anything not covered by the first movie could be depicted in future movies.
I think they should make as big of a splash as possible with a first film and not 'save' anything for sequels etc. Then if it does well, a sequel will be on order anyway, and they can cross that bridge if they get there. Also why the next film should deliver heavily on the action and excitement.

I think that what general audiences have grown rather jaded with is the Superman-being-Superman part, and not the characterization or the knowing who he is inside, etc. That (the former) what they need a new and better look at, more than anything to reestablish, him as a heavy-hitter....and redefine the experience of Superman being Superman the superhero. Not that Clark and Supes the individual should be nonexistent, but it shouldn't be a psych analysis either. Then, if there are more movies to come, they can expand on the internals a bit more once the audience investment in the experience is replenished.

[Webhead2006]

well it shouldnt end up just all action with no heart or story. I dont think supes fans want to see him reduced to a michael bay style transformers 2 deal. They need to find a good balance of action/story/heart and sprinkle in humor-romance. I would say maybe style it off say raiders of the lost ark as tone and story telling.

[SuperMike335!!]

Superman may not exactly a Dostoevsky character, but a Superman movie should, in part should always be about morality.

Jor-el: "You must not interfere with human history."

or

Clark: "All those powers, all those things I can do and I couldn't even save him."

Superman may not be a very complex person but the universe has become extroidnarily complex because of his existance on Earth.

And, as a side note, because DC formed their own movie studio like Marvel Entertainment, so help me God there is no reason whatsoever why Superman can't make an appearance in other DC movies. Like it or not we DO have a Superman for right now. Personally, I think we're lucky to have a Superman actor primed and ready ready to don the cape again if need be.

Completely agreed.

I think part of it is also Superman comming to terms with the fact that he cannot be everywhere at once, and sometimes people will still die, and he will not be able to save them from everything.

But we show he does have the disire to do so.

Superman does not want to help just to feed his ego (Luthor might however), but rather because he feels he should.

[RachelDawes]

Never said he wasn't. At the same time, it's not like SR didn't do what he was asking either....it just didn't do it well, and offered very little energy outside of it.

I would disagree, and lots of other Superman fans would too. A lot of people were put off by Superman's behavior on the movie, like his leaving without saying goodbye and later spying on Lois. Neither moment really displays Superman's wisdom, for example.

I think they should make as big of a splash as possible with a first film and not 'save' anything for sequels etc. Then if it does well, a sequel will be on order anyway, and they can cross that bridge if they get there. Also why the next film should deliver heavily on the action and excitement.

I meant smaller character moments and revelations should be saved for the sequels, not action.

I think that what general audiences have grown rather jaded with is the Superman-being-Superman part, and not the characterization or the knowing who he is inside, etc. That (the former) what they need a new and better look at, more than anything to reestablish, him as a heavy-hitter....and redefine the experience of Superman being Superman the superhero. Not that Clark and Supes the individual should be nonexistent, but it shouldn't be a psych analysis either.

Yes, Superman definitely needs more action in his next movie, but he's also seen as a dull boy scout by quite a few members of the public. Combating this image is mostly a matter of upping the action, as you say, but it's also important to show Superman's personality, and why he can be a good guy but also a badass. If nothing else, an interesting lead character ought to make for a better movie. :woot:

Then, if there are more movies to come, they can expand on the internals a bit more once the audience investment in the experience is replenished.

This is what I meant when I said that anything not covered by the first movie could be depicted in sequels.

[Mr. Earle]

Superman Returns was a tribute to Donner and Reeves. It had no substance, barely any story, and barely any dialogue.
The whole time i was watching it i was thinking to myself: "When will Singer stop masturbating to Donner?"

[Nightwing1977]

The whole time i was watching it i was thinking to myself: "When will Singer stop masturbating to Donner?"

I hope you're joking there. That's consider a little tasteless there, especially with "masturbating to Donner?". :dry:

[Mr. Earle]

Its not tasteless, its what really happened.

[The Guard]

To a point. Singer definitely more or less did his own thing with Superman's actual character, built on Donner's mythos or not.

[Webhead2006]

well singer has been reported a huge richard donner superman fan. Since as we clearly saw with SR it was pretty much donner's superman over again with singer's new stuff added in.
I said before i am a fan of the reeve movies and do like them all. But it was a mistake making Sr be a vague sequel to donner's film. It should have been clearly new start. Sure its nice to homage and make a refrence to past incarnations of characters. But we didnt need the whole film to be that.

Hopefully the next guys will not make that mistake. Wont base the next film solely on one take on the character. So then they can look at all versions of the characters and find aspects they think work best and move on with a new original story.

[Fresh Prince]

Bottom line is Superman Returns should not of been a sequel to any of Donner's films.....just a stand alone film or Superboy movie....I would of loved the Superboy movie and no Smallville is not that.....its a made up thing.

[SuperMike335!!]

Superman Returns was a tribute to Donner and Reeves. It had no substance, barely any story, and barely any dialogue.
The whole time i was watching it i was thinking to myself: "When will Singer stop masturbating to Donner?"


Thats exactly how I felt about the movie too.

[Fresh Prince]

I hope you're joking there. That's consider a little tasteless there, especially with "masturbating to Donner?". :dry:

The man speaks the truth....you did not see Nolan wanting a Batman movie to continue from Burton's movies and ignore Schumaker's films.

[El Payaso]

The man speaks the truth....you did not see Nolan wanting a Batman movie to continue from Burton's movies and ignore Schumaker's films.

And what possible point could that ever actually make? :huh:

[The Guard]

Singer was clearly a fan of Donner's movies and wanted to homage them and carry on from them, but to suggest that all he did was copy off Donner's mythology is silly at best. Singer introduced plenty of new elements to his Superman film.

[Fresh Prince]

And what possible point could that ever actually make? :huh:

Obviously that Singer should of rebooted the franchise.

[Mr. Earle]

Singer was clearly a fan of Donner's movies and wanted to homage them and carry on from them, but to suggest that all he did was copy off Donner's mythology is silly at best. Singer introduced plenty of new elements to his Superman film.Yeah, the going to Krypton part and the son part. And Lois being butthurt about him leaving. But as the first poster of this thread says, Superman was mostly a lifeless doll in this movie. The was no character to evolve. He never spoke in the damn film. Read the first post of the thread, he says it best.

Anyway, Donner's Superman is an older version the character. The current comics Clark and Superman can be seen in "Lois & Clark". For example Clark is not a bumbling fool, but a dynamic and respectable reporter. His masquerade consists of hunching his back a bit, changing his hairdo and the glasses.

So it took Singer's bland movie to get it but they got it. Its time for a reboot. I heard rumours they were going darker, obviously because of Batman's success, but i hope to god DC arent that stupid to realise that they re different characters that are loved for different reasons.

[SuperMike335!!]

Singer was clearly a fan of Donner's movies and wanted to homage them and carry on from them, but to suggest that all he did was copy off Donner's mythology is silly at best. Singer introduced plenty of new elements to his Superman film.



The new stuff he added I did not really care for either.

[Webhead2006]

me neither.

[Mr. Earle]

Yeah, me neither!

[mego joe]

Make it 4!

[AnorexicBatman]

What new stuff? We already had a FAR BETTER version of Superboy in the comics.
We did not need a bastard son.