Keep the ORGANICS or WEB SHOOTERS???!!!!

[drmick]

I see it as essentially the following:

Pro-Organics = Refusing to believe that a high school kid with high school resources can develop web fluid.

Pro-Mechanical = people who believe Peter is a genius, and thus Peter has the smarts to develop web fluid if given access to the resources.

Would this be correct? Are there any who do not fall into these two camps (as defined by me)?

[SpeterMan3]

Pro-Mechanical could include wanting something new and adding more suspense when his cartridges run out.

[mjbull23]

And that made no damn sense at all.:cmad:

'Why is this happening to me?' Because the writers need it to at this point in time in the story, Tobey.:doh:

It made all the sense in the world. The entire theme of the 2nd movie was and I quote Otto Octavius on this one "If you keep something as complicated as love locked inside, it can eat away at you and make you sick".

Okay, let's flashback to that scene you refer to where his webbing dries up, runs out, whatever.... the entire point of that scene was to demonstrate that Peter's unrequited love for Mary Jane was beggining to affect his ability to perform as Spiderman. It was making him sick to the point of losing all of his powers.

[Chris Wallace]

I see it as essentially the following:

Pro-Organics = Refusing to believe that a high school kid with high school resources can develop web fluid.

Pro-Mechanical = people who believe Peter is a genius, and thus Peter has the smarts to develop web fluid if given access to the resources.

Would this be correct? Are there any who do not fall into these two camps (as defined by me)?
You're right and wrong.
Pro-organic could also include:
Seeing the webbing as being a logical, natural aspect of his arachnid mutation.
Not seeing what it hurts, story-wise.
Liking to antagonize the pro-mechs camp. :woot:
Pro-mechanical could include:
Traditionalists who want as many aspects of the comic book translated to/preserved on film.
People who are somewhat grossed out by the idea of him using his actual bodily substance to fight & travel with.
Likiing to antagonize the pro-organic camp.:cwink:

[Chris Wallace]

Pro-Mechanical could include wanting something new and adding more suspense when his cartridges run out.

You do realize that it's entirely possible (especially if I have my way) for him to have mechs & still not encounter issues with his web fluid supply? It's not like he runs into this scenario every issue. "Damn! I'm out! What do I do?"
Hell, for that matter, he could just as easily-logically speaking-run into problems with his webbing supply using organics. If I'm not mistaken, one of the key ingredients in spider silk is protein. He could not have eaten well and not be able to generate enough webbing in a fight. Or he could have a bad cut & lose protein that way. It may sound far-fetched but it's not ENTIRELY implausible.

[SpeterMan3]

Yeah, it's entirely possible either way. I know that at least I associate web problems more with mechs though.

[SP1D3RxV3N0M]

I see it as essentially the following:

Pro-Organics = Refusing to believe that a high school kid with high school resources can develop web fluid.

Pro-Mechanical = people who believe Peter is a genius, and thus Peter has the smarts to develop web fluid if given access to the resources.

Would this be correct? Are there any who do not fall into these two camps (as defined by me)?

Put me in a third group, A group of people who just want a good Spider-man story told on the big screen and isn't really concerned with the web being organic or mechanical...

[Alonsovich]

I suggest a hybrid solution... using the web shooters to control and aim better his organic webbing...:o

[Spectacular23]

I suggest a hybrid solution... using the web shooters to control and aim better his organic webbing...:o

:facepalm:No offense dude but that dumb. I mean borderline retardation. The way i see it is they are even doing mechanics or no mechanics. Point blank. No " web controllers" They are called web shooters. No just nah

[Chris Wallace]

I never liked that idea, not even when there were rumors circulating around that Raimi was going that route.

[Deaths Head II]

I don't like web-controllers either. I don't care which way they go with, but I'd rather have web-shooters or organics. Nothing in between.

[Chris Wallace]

I don't care which way they go with, but I'd rather have web-shooters or organics. Nothing in between.Seconded.

[Peter_Porker]

I would like to see the mechanical web shooters....some of the best parts of the Spiderman cartoons is when he's in the middle of a fight and runs out of the webbing (sorta like in SM 2 when he lost his abilities for a short time).

[Rodrigo90]

I like the idea of him producing his own web,then building the shooters to control and amplify what he can do with them.

[Chris Wallace]

You are FAR from the first person to propose this. As I've said before, they were allegedly planning to use this idea in Raimi's movies at one point.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/panther/webshooter.jpg
I don't know if the idea was just scrapped or if it was a red herring.
In any case, it really wouldn't make sense for them to do that now. We saw him control his web flow just fine in not one, not two, but 3 movies. In fact, by the second movie he'd learned how to fire web projectiles. To say that he now needs a gadget to do this would be like diminishing him, much the way the pro-mechs camp argues that having organic webbing in the first place diminishes his intellect.

[Rodrigo90]

But he can do lots of things with his web with the shooters. He remotely adjusts them with the pressure of his fingers,so he can shoot a normal web line or even a parachute if he wanted.

[Chris Wallace]

But he can do that WITHOUT those things. We saw him shoot thin lines, thick cables, web-balls and even huge nets in the Raimi films.
And the parachute thing-I really can't see it. Looks good in comics & cartoons but I truly do not think it would fly on film.

[Mrpaul]

I still say web shooters. Let Peter be the science wiz that he is

[Spectacular23]

Ok. Question: If they do give spider man web shooters can how will they explain the basic of how it work. Yeah i know he press the trigger and webbing comes out. But if they going to go with the ultimate route this could be quite confusing. In amazing and ultimate spiderman comics peter parker web shooters has always been that one web cartridge with the nozzle and trigger connects to it. The other 9 cartridges line around the outside of his wrist. How will they explain how this will work? Now i can see if the went with the spectacular spiderman web shooters design with the automatic carousel, of rotating to a fresh one after one goes dry.

[Chris Wallace]

Who says they have to explain it at all?

[Hotwire]

Just realized, they have to go organic again. See, with web-shooters, he'd have to reload them. And in Hollywood, the good guys never need to reload their guns. So....

[Chris Wallace]

Just realized, they have to go organic again. See, with web-shooters, he'd have to reload them. And in Hollywood, the good guys never need to reload their guns. So....

:hehe:

[Spectacular23]

Just realized, they have to go organic again. See, with web-shooters, he'd have to reload them. And in Hollywood, the good guys never need to reload their guns. So....

What the hell? Who told you that lie. Peter hasn't needed to reload his web shooters since the 90's. Nowadays peter either has one of 2 thing. The carousel that automatically rotates to a fresh cartridge when one runs dry. Or the self replenishing web shooter. With the main cartridge hook up to the nozzle and trigger. The web fluid flows in a clockwise motion to the main cartridge and exits out the nozzle. Since the cartridges is 300psi this is possible. (Self-replenishing web shooters.)

[Chris Wallace]

I still like the idea of them keeping us guessing until about halfway through, when we finally see him take his glove off.

[SpeterMan3]

Would love to see him develop his webshooters from the constantly reloaded to the rotating cartidges in the movie(s).

[Chris Wallace]

Not bad. Maybe he could install an indicator gauge?

[Hotwire]

What the hell? Who told you that lie. Peter hasn't needed to reload his web shooters since the 90's. Nowadays peter either has one of 2 thing. The carousel that automatically rotates to a fresh cartridge when one runs dry. Or the self replenishing web shooter. With the main cartridge hook up to the nozzle and trigger. The web fluid flows in a clockwise motion to the main cartridge and exits out the nozzle. Since the cartridges is 300psi this is possible. (Self-replenishing web shooters.)
Sometimes the simplest of jokes are lost on people.

[Chris Wallace]

Clearly.

[Spectacular23]

Yeah sure it didn't seem like a joke to me. But anyway the rotating cartridges web shooters would be cool. A little more technologic but still be cool to see in the movie. Oh speaking of which do anybody here think they know what the time period might be for peter parker high school years. I'm thinking 2010 or 2009.

[Chris Wallace]

Not sure what you mean, S23.

[Spectacular23]

Not sure what you mean, S23.

Ok Chris Wallace i'm going to try to explain the best way possible but there a cartoon series called the spectacular spiderman. In this show peter parker has created web shooters that has a automatic carousel that rotates cartridges when ever one goes dry. You can see the feature in the video posted below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaIFyvk8i1I
5:42-5:45

You can see it here. But um i was saying that if they do go along with the web shooters i hope they use these because these i think personally maks more sense.

[StylesClashV1]

Organic.

Here's why. While we never got a origin scene of Peter creating the web shooters in Spider-Man 1, we did get a long ass origin (not a knock, it's just nearly an hour that I've seen half a dozen times in less than a decade). With the reboot they'll feel the need to do the origin stuff AGAIN. So I'm gonna wanna zip past it all as fast as possible.

Christ they ****ed this whole thing up.

[Spectacular23]

Organic.

Here's why. While we never got a origin scene of Peter creating the web shooters in Spider-Man 1, we did get a long ass origin (not a knock, it's just nearly an hour that I've seen half a dozen times in less than a decade). With the reboot they'll feel the need to do the origin stuff AGAIN. So I'm gonna wanna zip past it all as fast as possible.

Christ they ****ed this whole thing up.

Yea maybe so but i still think they should give this guy a chance. I'm sure about to give him one. I decided to keep all my bashing until at least a teaser comes out which would probably be at the end of next year.

[StylesClashV1]

Yea maybe so but i still think they should give this guy a chance. I'm sure about to give him one. I decided to keep all my bashing until at least a teaser comes out which would probably be at the end of next year.

I'm totally giving this a chance. I think it's stupid to reboot a SUCCESFUL franchise this quickly. And I'll feel weary of fully accepting this, cause maybe they'll just reboot again before I'm 30. But the one thing that's got me excited is the director. (500) Days of Summer was the best movie of 2009. So I have no choice but to give it a shot. I just don't want to sit through stuff I saw the other guys do.

[Spectacular23]

I'm totally giving this a chance. I think it's stupid to reboot a SUCCESFUL franchise this quickly. And I'll feel weary of fully accepting this, cause maybe they'll just reboot again before I'm 30. But the one thing that's got me excited is the director. (500) Days of Summer was the best movie of 2009. So I have no choice but to give it a shot. I just don't want to sit through stuff I saw the other guys do.

Oh i understand what you mean although i haven't seen any of Marc Webb's work so i wanna see what he got.

[Chris Wallace]

Ok Chris Wallace i'm going to try to explain the best way possible but there a cartoon series called the spectacular spiderman. In this show peter parker has created web shooters that has a automatic carousel that rotates cartridges when ever one goes dry. You can see the feature in the video posted below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaIFyvk8i1I
5:42-5:45

You can see it here. But um i was saying that if they do go along with the web shooters i hope they use these because these i think personally maks more sense.

I meant the last sentence. About the time period. That I didn't understand.

[Ethermatic]

Though I won't vote since I'm really not 100% sure what I prefer, I do think the organic webbing does make sense and should continue to be used. If he can get abilities like a spider, he should be able to create his own webbing, too.

That said, I may change my mind down the road. Hence why I won't vote.

[Spectacular23]

I meant the last sentence. About the time period. That I didn't understand.

OH :doh: my bad. Like i was wondering what year will the movie takes place. Since he's in high school maybe 2002 or 2003? I don't know if they will up it up to this year or so.

[Chris Wallace]

Oh, I get you. I think they should make it current. No need to go retro. You want the movies to feel relevant, plus reboots are confusing enough as it is. By this I mean you don't want to leave any impression that this kid is gonna grow up to be Tobey Maguire. I remember when I first heard about Smallville I thought it was gonna take place in like the 60's or so. I'm glad they didn't do it that way.

[Spectacular23]

Oh, I get you. I think they should make it current. No need to go retro. You want the movies to feel relevant, plus reboots are confusing enough as it is. By this I mean you don't want to leave any impression that this kid is gonna grow up to be Tobey Maguire. I remember when I first heard about Smallville I thought it was gonna take place in like the 60's or so. I'm glad they didn't do it that way.


Oh well the smallville series is doing great. Love the show. But how old was peter when he 1st got his powers, 15? That would make him at school with me lol. Nah but seriously it would be kinda cool. Because well aside from the spider-powers i can relate to parker. Except i don't have a bully or a hot red-head. But i do have a brunette. haha.

[Chris Wallace]

That's supposed to be Spider-Man's hook; his relatability. One of the chief reasons why the organic webbing came about. Raimi & Co. felt he'd be less relatable toting a gadget that the 3M corporation can't make than having the ability as a natural part of his arachnid mutation.

[the dmg]

:facepalm:No offense dude but that dumb. I mean borderline retardation. The way i see it is they are even doing mechanics or no mechanics. Point blank. No " web controllers" They are called web shooters. No just nah
How is that dumb? The web shooters actually do control his webbing, depending on how much pressure he applies.

[Ajendo]

That's supposed to be Spider-Man's hook; his relatability. One of the chief reasons why the organic webbing came about. Raimi & Co. felt he'd be less relatable toting a gadget that the 3M corporation can't make than having the ability as a natural part of his arachnid mutation.

Yes, because we can all have our bodies genetically mutate, making us all superhuman. Look, it's fantasy. When Stan Lee created spidey back in '62 he could have given Peter organics but he didn't and that's what is unique. Peter is relatable, he maybe super intelligent but even though you get a few kids with massive IQs, its still all part of the fantasy within this context. There's some guy over at the ironman boards who's made near identical, fully functional ironman/war machine armours that he built himself and rather quickly I might add. Obviously, the suit can't fly and he cant blast repulsar rays and lasers but the motorised engineering of gadgets he's incoporated is fully functional and is just amazing. So, my question is, in a movie about a comic book character that everyone knows about and are fully aware its all fantasy, what is the harm in sticking to the source material and giving peter mechs?? Audeinces aren't going to walk out or refuse to see the movie because of it.

[Chris Wallace]

There IS no harm. None whatsoever. But the organics didn't do any harm either, other than offending purist fanboys who have no problem with every little change Nolan made but want to act like Raimi came into their houses, snatched their childhoods out of their bodies and raped their inner children.

[Ajendo]

There IS no harm. None whatsoever. But the organics didn't do any harm either, other than offending purist fanboys who have no problem with every little change Nolan made but want to act like Raimi came into their houses, snatched their childhoods out of their bodies and raped their inner children.

I wouldn't go that far but I agree, there is no harm in organics but at the same time, the asme excuse can be applied to being pro web shooters and rightfully more so as the mechs came with the character as intended originally.

What if superman was flying without his cape, what if wolverine didn't have his claws, what if ironman was just Tony Stark without the armour (although I'm pretty sure, it'd still be an amazing movie lol), what if DD wasn't blind????????????????????

The concept of these comic book heroes from a logical standpoint is absurd but no one gives a crap because it's ESCAPISM. Just give the guy is mechs, its part of who he is, it's a testament to his genius and resourcefulness and the mechs are simply just too awesome in their own right not to mention the amount of fun and interesting plot devices one can come up with.

[Chris Wallace]

I wouldn't go that far but I agree, there is no harm in organics but at the same time, the asme excuse can be applied to being pro web shooters and rightfully more so as the mechs came with the character as intended originally.

What if superman was flying without his cape, what if wolverine didn't have his claws, what if ironman was just Tony Stark without the armour (although I'm pretty sure, it'd still be an amazing movie lol), what if DD wasn't blind????????????????????

The concept of these comic book heroes from a logical standpoint is absurd but no one gives a crap because it's ESCAPISM. Just give the guy is mechs, its part of who he is, it's a testament to his genius and resourcefulness and the mechs are simply just too awesome in their own right not to mention the amount of fun and interesting plot devices one can come up with.

These are all bad examples. Wolverine with no claws isn't Wolverine, because one of the most widely recognized aspects of the character would be gone. A sighted Daredevil wouldn't be Daredevil, as his blindness makes up a large part of who he is. Tony Stark with no armor wouldn't be Iron Man because he's powerless without it. Superman-the cape is an aspect of his costume, not his abilities, so that one makes NO sense. And again, nobody seems to care that Batman can no longer seem to make his own equipment in the movies, or figure things out without them being explained to him. But we're not talking about truthfully taking anything away from Spider-Man. Spider-Man spins webs in the comics, just as he does in the movies. The only thing they changed was where the webs originate from. If you saw an image of him swinging around, it looked absolutely no different than an image on the comic page, except that if you thought about it, you knew there was no fancy bracelet underneath his glove. It did not change anything about the character except that we didn't see the inventive side of him. But when he's swinging & fighting, that's not what we're generally thinking about anyway.

[Spectacular23]

How is that dumb? The web shooters actually do control his webbing, depending on how much pressure he applies.

Yea but i understand what you mean. But still i just don't like the idea of web controller. All the way Mechanical for me. Even if the guys from spider-man tech said it was impossible for him to fit in the necessary propellant for it to actually work. I STILL Gonna stay with mech.



As for Chris, I agree no harmed will be done at all. It will be another part of spiderman but that wouldn't change him for what he is. He will still be Spidey. :spidey:

[the dmg]

And again, nobody seems to care that Batman can no longer seem to make his own equipment in the movies, or figure things out without them being explained to him.
Have you been in the Bat boards? There are plenty of complaints about Nolan's version of Batman.

[Chris Wallace]

Okay, comparatively speaking.

[MessiahDecoy123]

These are all bad examples. Wolverine with no claws isn't Wolverine, because one of the most widely recognized aspects of the character would be gone. A sighted Daredevil wouldn't be Daredevil, as his blindness makes up a large part of who he is. Tony Stark with no armor wouldn't be Iron Man because he's powerless without it. Superman-the cape is an aspect of his costume, not his abilities, so that one makes NO sense. And again, nobody seems to care that Batman can no longer seem to make his own equipment in the movies, or figure things out without them being explained to him. But we're not talking about truthfully taking anything away from Spider-Man. Spider-Man spins webs in the comics, just as he does in the movies. The only thing they changed was where the webs originate from. If you saw an image of him swinging around, it looked absolutely no different than an image on the comic page, except that if you thought about it, you knew there was no fancy bracelet underneath his glove. It did not change anything about the character except that we didn't see the inventive side of him. But when he's swinging & fighting, that's not what we're generally thinking about anyway.
The derived substance of the web adds a sophistication and purpose to Spider-man, giving him a superhero intellect the same way adamantium gives Captain America and Wolverine symbolic stength.

Without adamantium Captain America and Wolverine lose some of their edge physically and metaphorically. Same goes with the artificially composed substance of Peter Parker's webbing. You replace it with body fluid and you lose something.

[Chris Wallace]

Not NEARLY the same. There's more to Spider-Man than the scientist, & to some of us, it's the least of his characteristics. Not to say I don't like it or it's unimportant, but there's a reason why I gravitate more to Spider-Man & less to the likes of Iron Man or Reed Richards.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Not NEARLY the same. There's more to Spider-Man than the scientist, & to some of us, it's the least of his characteristics. Not to say I don't like it or it's unimportant, but there's a reason why I gravitate more to Spider-Man & less to the likes of Iron Man or Reed Richards.
Whether you recognize it or not the scientist aspect of Peter Parker is a huge part of his universe. Most of his villians are tech savvy or have powers related to science. Often Parker uses science to defeat or cure villians, sometimes altering his web formula. Parker would never have became Spider-man if he didn't go to a science fair while most of his peers were out partying. If Flash Thompson had got bitten by the radioactive spider he wouldn't have lasted for 5 minutes against Spidey's rogue galley without science. Spider-man being a science nerd is a reminder that science nerds can be A-list superheroes too because in the real world they would have the brain power and know-how to defeat bad guys. Look at CSI tv shows or the Manhattan Project.

The scientist skill balances the physical and mental prowess of the character. He could be a brainy piano player but how would that apply to crime fighting the way that science can?

[Avengers-Report]

You have to go w/Organic Web Shooters, just makes more sense and fits the "super power" Spider-Man theme. Especially if this Spider-Man is in High School, no way he can develop technology as advanced as web-shooters.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Nobody said "no way somebody could build a flying battle exo-suit in a cave" during Iron Man.

It's a sci-fi fantasy comic book movie where a man can turn back and forth between flesh and sand and you can wear aliens like a tuxedo. Nobody is going to think twice if Parker is portrayed as science prodigy and he makes overglorified glue.

Most people will say, "oh I didn't know Spider-man was smart enough to invent his own webbing, cool" and finish watching the movie. The same way they said, "oh this guy can turn into sand then back to normal guy, cool".

[The Squirrel]

"Parker built them in a basement... with a box of SCRAPS!!!"

[©KAW]

MECHANICAL WEBSHOOTERS, please.

Thank you.

[david icke]

Nobody said "no way somebody could build a flying battle exo-suit in a cave" during Iron Man.

It's a sci-fi fantasy comic book movie where a man can turn back and forth between flesh and sand and you can wear aliens like a tuxedo. Nobody is going to think twice if Parker is portrayed as science prodigy and he makes overglorified glue.

Most people will say, "oh I didn't know Spider-man was smart enough to invent his own webbing, cool" and finish watching the movie. The same way they said, "oh this guy can turn into sand then back to normal guy, cool".

That's *why* he's Iron-Man, because he can make a suit like that with makeshift materials, a genius inventor who goes on making things throughout his life.

The thing about Pete making this webbing, that no-one else on Earth has made, that makes it less 'realistic' than Iron-Man, is that is all he makes. He makes this one big breakthrough and then zilch, no more breakthroughs, no more inventions.
Yes, he developed his own spider-tracers, but they are hardly new inventions, just tech that exists in a form already that he manages to tune into his spider-sense frequency, like a dog-whistle.

So this genius kid happens to make webbing and then goes on to make nothing else, hmmm, it just seems like a convienent invention for the sake of the stories as they did not(or could not at the time) give him organics, and of course that's what it is.
They make reference to him being great in class, and there are times his science whizzness comes in handy, but I agree with CW, there are far more important aspects to Spidey's character that have contributed to his appeal.

[MessiahDecoy123]

That's *why* he's Iron-Man, because he can make a suit like that with makeshift materials, a genius inventor who goes on making things throughout his life.

The thing about Pete making this webbing, that no-one else on Earth has made, that makes it less 'realistic' than Iron-Man, is that is all he makes. He makes this one big breakthrough and then zilch, no more breakthroughs, no more inventions.
Yes, he developed his own spider-tracers, but they are hardly new inventions, just tech that exists in a form already that he manages to tune into his spider-sense frequency, like a dog-whistle.

So this genius kid happens to make webbing and then goes on to make nothing else, hmmm, it just seems like a convienent invention for the sake of the stories as they did not(or could not at the time) give him organics, and of course that's what it is.
They make reference to him being great in class, and there are times his science whizzness comes in handy, but I agree with CW, there are far more important aspects to Spidey's character that have contributed to his appeal.
I think Tony Stark and Peter Parker have different motivations.

Stark is an ambitious industrialist. Parker just wants to do right by his Uncle Ben.

Considering Parker's relatively modest motivation of wanting to use his powers for crimefighting it wouldn't be logical for him to spend much of his time inventing when he has to split his time crime fighting with working and family. Not to mention his limited resources.

Parker was motivated simply to create a webbing system to complete his identity as Spider-man. But I'm also open to the explanation that the spider-bite gave Parker the instincts to know what chemicals were needed for web formula. I think that's solid sci-fi and just as reasonable as a "spider-sense" or a "Sandman".

[david icke]

I think Tony Stark and Peter Parker have different motivations.

Stark is an ambitious industrialist. Parker just wants to do right by his Uncle Ben.

Considering Parker's relatively modest motivation of wanting to use his powers for crimefighting it wouldn't be logical for him to spend much of his time inventing when he has to split his time crime fighting with working and family. Not to mention his limited resources.

Parker was motivated simply to create a webbing system to complete his identity as Spider-man. But I'm also open to the explanation that the spider-bite gave Parker the instincts to know what chemicals were needed for web formula. I think that's solid sci-fi and just as reasonable as a "spider-sense" or a "Sandman".

Ok, so what is it then? He's a genius scientist, or was granted spider-knowledge to create artificial webs? Because that reasoning, or no-prize explanation, just seems like a way to explain away the fact that it's a little bit of a forced way of getting the character to shoot webs, when they weren't allowed to give him organics in the first place. I'm sure Stan Lee said this at one point, that they wouldn't have been allowed to give him organic webs by the publisher. Too gross or weird or whatever.

and if you are arguing that he was granted spider-knowledge, which has never been said in the books to my knowledge, then you're saying that the 'genius scientist' aspect of PP is not that important a character aspect, and anyone with basic science training could have whipped up the miracle webbing if they had been granted spider-powers.

Anyway you look at it, it's just a way of trying to explain an outlandish part of the origin. The character of Spider-man can survive without it if given organic web-shooters.

[Chris Wallace]

THat hypothesis was, to the best of my knowledge, introduced in the 90's series. It has never been supported by anything & it really doesn't make sense. Do you think a spider knows the chemical composition of its silk? Preposterous.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Ok, so what is it then? He's a genius scientist, or was granted spider-knowledge to create artificial webs? Because that reasoning, or no-prize explanation, just seems like a way to explain away the fact that it's a little bit of a forced way of getting the character to shoot webs, when they weren't allowed to give him organics in the first place. I'm sure Stan Lee said this at one point, that they wouldn't have been allowed to give him organic webs by the publisher. Too gross or weird or whatever.

and if you are arguing that he was granted spider-knowledge, which has never been said in the books to my knowledge, then you're saying that the 'genius scientist' aspect of PP is not that important a character aspect, and anyone with basic science training could have whipped up the miracle webbing if they had been granted spider-powers.

Anyway you look at it, it's just a way of trying to explain an outlandish part of the origin. The character of Spider-man can survive without it if given organic web-shooters.
The spider-bite helps Parker figure out a formula, it doesn't spoon-feed it to him. Showing Parker's failed yet ingenious experiments to compose web formula before the spider-instinct kicks in would re-enforce the idea that Parker was a science nerd and the bite gave him the intuition needed for the breakthrough.

The spider-bite knowledge was only suggested because some people think a teenager inventing web formula was too unbelievable. So it's a compromise meeting people in the middle. It doesn't give up on the brainy aspect of Parker. Parker is still extremely smart he just couldn't come up with a rare scientific breakthrough like web formula. I don't feel it's necessary but would quell the criticism that a poor teenager couldn't out invent the adhesive industry.

I don't think the explanation is forced any more than the spider-bite giving Parker a spidey-sense. It's simply another psychological way the spider-powers manifested. If the spider-bite gave Parker multiple physical abilities why wouldn't it give him multiple mental abilities? If anything it balances the character out giving him a multitude of both physical and mental spider skills without taking away his humanity the way internal spider physiology does. After all, Parker having internal spider organs to create web fluid is still grotesque and inhuman.

Ultimately the spider-bite giving Parker a type of instinct to create webbing is not a "no-prize explanation". It's works to give Parker back his humanity, reverts the webbing back to a scientific accomplishment by Parker, and balances out the character giving him a more impressive and diverse super-power inventory.

[Dr Tactics]

That's *why* he's Iron-Man, because he can make a suit like that with makeshift materials, a genius inventor who goes on making things throughout his life.

The thing about Pete making this webbing, that no-one else on Earth has made, that makes it less 'realistic' than Iron-Man, is that is all he makes. He makes this one big breakthrough and then zilch, no more breakthroughs, no more inventions.
Yes, he developed his own spider-tracers, but they are hardly new inventions, just tech that exists in a form already that he manages to tune into his spider-sense frequency, like a dog-whistle.

So this genius kid happens to make webbing and then goes on to make nothing else, hmmm, it just seems like a convienent invention for the sake of the stories as they did not(or could not at the time) give him organics, and of course that's what it is.
They make reference to him being great in class, and there are times his science whizzness comes in handy, but I agree with CW, there are far more important aspects to Spidey's character that have contributed to his appeal.

Well If Peter was such a genius then, He would've made a adhesive that doesn't disintegrate in a hour or so. Who at 3M wants that? Stark would have been much more thorough.

[Deaths Head II]

Well If Peter was such a genius then, He would've made a adhesive that doesn't disintegrate in a hour or so. Who at 3M wants that? Stark would have been much more thorough.

In the comics at one point Peter tried to sell the webbing and they made it pretty clear he could figure out how to make it last longer if he had time and money to do so. He purposefully made it temporary the first time because he didn't want his enemies to be stuck forever.

I always found that weird though. In the first comic he made the costume and webshooters in a jiffy. But after that they tried to make the story more realistic and said how difficult it is for Peter to sew and how much effort it would take to further experiment on his webshooters even though he invented them in like one night.

[david icke]

THat hypothesis was, to the best of my knowledge, introduced in the 90's series. It has never been supported by anything & it really doesn't make sense. Do you think a spider knows the chemical composition of its silk? Preposterous.

Oh, ok, I have all the seasons apart from the 1st one, I haven't seen s1 in a long time as my videotapes of that one are all of unwatchable quality.

I was plugging the gaps in my Spider-man reading and read issue 94 for the first time the other day, where they go over the origin again, and it just reads as ridiculous that he comes up with the web-shooters the day after he gets his powers.
I really hope it doesn't come across that way in the movie if they go with mechanicals. Even if they do go for the 90s cartoon explanation.

I am easy either way, as long as the mechanicals don't come across as a stretch too far, the only thing I prefer about the mechanicals is that they can be written in to the story to malfunction or run out of fluid in mid-battle.

[Spectacular23]

Yeah aside from all the arguing going on this is why i think they should do a ultimate film. Well not the whole film entirely but just bits and pieces from the ultimate universe. In the ultimate universe peter's dad was a scientist so poor or not peter sill will have access to all of his father equipment. Also peter's dad has written a formula for molecular adhesives. So he quite the science nerd. Peter parker has said to been staring at the formula since before he can read. Days or maybe weeks after he got his powers he finally was able to put the formula to together and create the adhesive also. It didn't just turn out to be web fluid. Parker stated that he used a little engineer and ingenuity to create webs using that formula. If they use mechanics he should definitely use this route to help chow down on the craziness.

[cerealkiller182]

I don't care.......sincerely.

Whether they do organic or mechanical makes no difference to me.

[david icke]

Well If Peter was such a genius then, He would've made a adhesive that doesn't disintegrate in a hour or so. Who at 3M wants that? Stark would have been much more thorough.

Yeah, I recall the Ditko issue where he tries to sell his invention to make some money, the one that DHII is talking about, but I didn't recall him saying he would be able to refine it to be more permanent.

Anyway, even if the solution was one that dissolved in an hour...it would still be a genius invention that would have many uses.
Imagine it was developed in real life, law enforcement and the military would be very interested in it.
and for less serious reasons, paintball would be out, web-shooting weekends would be in.
Probably a bad idea to sell it on though, his enemies could analyze it's properties for weakness, and crooks would end up getting their hands on the tech and using it.

[cerealkiller182]

I dont see how a flaw in the invention makes Peter NOt a genius. Just cause he doesnt have all the answers, doesnt mean he doesnt have most of the answers. Plus I remember the cartoon using the excuse that if it didnt disintegrate in an hour than the whole city would be covered in webbing from him swinging everywhere.

[Chris Wallace]

Reed Richards & Tony Stark's inventions have plenty of flaws.

[The Squirrel]

I would think having webbing that did disintegrate would be genius. To keep people from stealing it and unlocking it's secretes and to keep the city clean of it.

[Chris Wallace]

True. Plus saving the cops the hassle of fighting with it as much.

[Dr Tactics]

I would think having webbing that did disintegrate would be genius. To keep people from stealing it and unlocking it's secretes and to keep the city clean of it.

Its is Genius. Some of the best experiments have been accidents. I just said that (why would 3M want that?) cause all the way from the beginning, Peter is too young to be an adult level intellect and thats why organic shooters are blah, blah. OK, Lets say he isn't. That would explain why he created (or improved) on a adhesive formula that dissipates in a hour to dust. Had he been older he could've figured it out cause he's older. His incomplete (imperfect) artificial spider silk works for his purposes just fine and If someone could duplicate the formula they probably could even find a way to make it permanent which would be bad (but useful to contain someone like the Hulk) But I digress..

Just don't feed me the Raimi Bull$*%! on why organics are more realistic based on what a high school kid maybe can or maybe can't do.

[Chris Wallace]

That's *why* he's Iron-Man, because he can make a suit like that with makeshift materials, a genius inventor who goes on making things throughout his life.

The thing about Pete making this webbing, that no-one else on Earth has made, that makes it less 'realistic' than Iron-Man, is that is all he makes. He makes this one big breakthrough and then zilch, no more breakthroughs, no more inventions.
Yes, he developed his own spider-tracers, but they are hardly new inventions, just tech that exists in a form already that he manages to tune into his spider-sense frequency, like a dog-whistle.

So this genius kid happens to make webbing and then goes on to make nothing else, hmmm, it just seems like a convienent invention for the sake of the stories as they did not(or could not at the time) give him organics, and of course that's what it is.
They make reference to him being great in class, and there are times his science whizzness comes in handy, but I agree with CW, there are far more important aspects to Spidey's character that have contributed to his appeal.

Thank you.

[Deaths Head II]

Yeah, I recall the Ditko issue where he tries to sell his invention to make some money, the one that DHII is talking about, but I didn't recall him saying he would be able to refine it to be more permanent.

I believe he said it to the scientists after they were unimpressed with it being temporary.

[cerealkiller182]

That's *why* he's Iron-Man, because he can make a suit like that with makeshift materials, a genius inventor who goes on making things throughout his life.

The thing about Pete making this webbing, that no-one else on Earth has made, that makes it less 'realistic' than Iron-Man, is that is all he makes. He makes this one big breakthrough and then zilch, no more breakthroughs, no more inventions.
Yes, he developed his own spider-tracers, but they are hardly new inventions, just tech that exists in a form already that he manages to tune into his spider-sense frequency, like a dog-whistle.

So this genius kid happens to make webbing and then goes on to make nothing else, hmmm, it just seems like a convienent invention for the sake of the stories as they did not(or could not at the time) give him organics, and of course that's what it is.
They make reference to him being great in class, and there are times his science whizzness comes in handy, but I agree with CW, there are far more important aspects to Spidey's character that have contributed to his appeal.

Convient invention for the sake of the stories? You mean how in the hypothetical situation that spider powers do transfer to a teenage boy, his web-glands would be located in his wrist instead of his butt.

Its super powers! Its all a little too convenient

[Chris Wallace]

I maintain that if they go with mechs, we don't really need an explanation of how they work or how he came up with them.

[©KAW]

They'll do a little explaining, but not much, and not much is needed.

[Chris Wallace]

Finally something we agree on!

[spidermanJLA!~]

The web-shooters are great for the movie

There is a comic reference,

The web-shooters and the utility belt make great merchandise

Plus, it would be funny if spider-man fell once or twice after running out of web fluid :hehe::spidey:

[Chris Wallace]

I don't know if I'm TRULY behind the utility belt. I keep thinking about this.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/panther2/SpiderOld03.jpg
And we've already seen Spidey fall due to web failure. Twice.

[©KAW]

He fell when he had ORGANICS in SM2. The fool runs out of webbing even with organic web shooters, how ironic.

[spidermanJLA!~]

I don't know if I'm TRULY behind the utility belt. I keep thinking about this.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/panther2/SpiderOld03.jpg
And we've already seen Spidey fall due to web failure. Twice.

Nooooo! That spider-man is stupid. In most series, spider-man's belt and web shooters are UNDER his costumehttp://comiccoverage.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/12/08/shooters.jpg

[Mig-El]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but why can't we have both organic & mechanical web-shooters at the same time.

At first Peter gains organic web-shooters, but then the web just splatters all over the place and leave big mess; the web is directionless. And so Peter devices the mechanical web-shooters as a way to control the web's directions and also so that he could manipulate different webbing patterns. And then there could be bit of scenes where the mechs goes malfunction...

How do you guys feel about that?

[Mig-El]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but why can't we have both organic & mechanical web-shooters at the same time.

At first Peter gains organic web-shooters, but then the web just splatters all over the place and leave big mess; the web is directionless. And so Peter devices the mechanical web-shooters as a way to control the web's directions and also so that he could manipulate different webbing patterns. And then there could be bit of scenes where the mechs goes malfunction...

How do you guys feel about that?

[Smegger56]

Mechanical shooters all the way. Yes, I know it's 'odd' to have a teenager invent web shooters and fluid, but then, it's just as realistic as spidey himself.

It makes for better tension. His shooters could give way, cause him all kinds of problems.

[Oscorp]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but why can't we have both organic & mechanical web-shooters at the same time.

At first Peter gains organic web-shooters, but then the web just splatters all over the place and leave big mess; the web is directionless. And so Peter devices the mechanical web-shooters as a way to control the web's directions and also so that he could manipulate different webbing patterns. And then there could be bit of scenes where the mechs goes malfunction...

How do you guys feel about that?

Yeah me and several others have mentioned it before but it is a great way to have both and is imo the best option! :up:

[MessiahDecoy123]

Regulators (organics with a wristband) are not good enough. It's not nearly as impressive as developing a sythetic webbing formula.

That's more like the superhero brain we expect Peter Parker to have.

[Chris Wallace]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but why can't we have both organic & mechanical web-shooters at the same time.

At first Peter gains organic web-shooters, but then the web just splatters all over the place and leave big mess; the web is directionless. And so Peter devices the mechanical web-shooters as a way to control the web's directions and also so that he could manipulate different webbing patterns. And then there could be bit of scenes where the mechs goes malfunction...

How do you guys feel about that?

It's been mentioned numerous times, even alleged that that was what Raimi was going to do. But I am not interested in middle of the road.

[Young Superman]

Keep the Organic Web-shooters I never liked the web-shooters. He's got all these other powers from the spider... why not webbing? Plus he's always running out... blech.

[©KAW]

Let's reverse your dislike for mechanics. Let's remove Superman's ability to fly and replace it with jet packs on his back. Let's see how that suits Supes' fans.

He ran out of webs in SM2. :confused:

So you can never escape the fact that Spider-Man runs out of webbing at some point, even when it grossly oozes white gunk from slits in his wrists.

Bring forth 'Mechanical Web-Shooters' for it is the way it was meant to be.

[spidermanJLA!~]

Basically, they already did the organics, so do the web shooters:dry:

[Young Superman]

I'm starting to remember how cool Mechanical Web-shooters are again after watching a few old episodes of thr 90s Spider-Man Cartoon. So I say have them in the reboot.

[Young Superman]

Oh and I also wanna see the Spider-Tracers, his Spider-Signal, Spider-Belt, and his Automatic Camera

[Young Superman]

Oh and I also wanna see his Spider-Tracers, his Spider-Signal, his Spider-Belt, and his Automatic Camera.

[Captain America]

Mechanical Web-shooters

Reasons why.

#1 Closer to the comics.
#2 Different from the past Spidey film.




Nuff' Said.

[Darkness Falls]

Captain America = voice of reason

[Captain America]

Captain America = voice of reason

http://costumzee.com/view/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/captain_america.jpg

[Tony_Stark]

Mechanical Web-Shooters! It may have seemed a bit too far-fetched back when the first Spidey movie came out but I really don't think with todays special effects it's really that far off - just look at the footage of the Iron Man 2 Suitcase armour as an example of how a seemingly implausible technology can be made to look soo realistic!
Plus since they're bothering with a reebot it may aswell be as original as possible..

[Tony_Stark]

Mechanical Web-Shooters! It may have seemed a bit too far-fetched back when the first Spidey movie came out but I really don't think with todays special effects it's really that far off - just look at the footage of the Iron Man 2 Suitcase armour as an example of how a seemingly implausible technology can be made to look soo realistic!
Plus since they're bothering with a reebot it may aswell be as original as possible..

[Chris Wallace]

You're comparing the technology available to a multi-billionaire weapon designer to that of a teenager whose family is struggling to keep the mortgage paid?

[Ace of Knaves]

See that's the problem. How are they gonna explain that this kid who hasn't got a pot to piss in can create a formula that has the qualities of spider webbing? And then create the web shooter itself?

Back in the day when Spidey was first created i don't think too much thought was put into it. Because back then no one would care, because they had never seen something like Spider-Man before.

The mentality of people in this day and age is much, much different. They need things to be at least slightly plausible.

[Captain America]

Good point, I Imagine if they have put some thought into the possibility of using mechanical web-shooters... They've run into that same problem

[©KAW]

See that's the problem. How are they gonna explain that this kid who hasn't got a pot to piss in can create a formula that has the qualities of spider webbing? And then create the web shooter itself?

Back in the day when Spidey was first created i don't think too much thought was put into it. Because back then no one would care, because they had never seen something like Spider-Man before.

The mentality of people in this day and age is much, much different. They need things to be at least slightly plausible.
They don't need to explain very much at all. Peter is a chemistry genuis, coupled that with him being a gifted teen inventor and then you add a layer of Science Fiction, because that what Spider-Man is, FICTION, people seem to forget that in their quest to explain everything. Why even make the chemicals that he needs expensive, I say make it cheap common chemical solutions, that only Peter knows how to combine and configure together to make his web-fluid. There's enough realism in Peter's life outside of being Spider-Man to last an audience a lifetime. Science is apart of who the character is, why not allow him to benefit from it, it should be apart of his character development.

Far fetched scientific ideas and stories will always be accepted, as long a Sci-Fi exist. No one cares about whether or not the science in Spider-Man, Iron Man, Avatar, The Matrix, Terminator 2, etc. is plausible, period. Nothing Spidey can do or how he became is plausible. Still that's no reason to take his mechanical web-shooters away from him, just because the uncreative film makers choose to take the easy way out.

[Captain America]

I Totally understand what you mean, this is after all, a comic book movie, BUT It is always nice to have a cool explanation to things like they did on Batman, not necessarily that detailed, but if it's possible to give a realistic feel to things, then they should go for it, it seems to connect allot better with most people.

[©KAW]

The thing is, it will feel real depending on how it's directed. You just simply don't need to explain every little detail. The audience already knows before the credit rolls, that you're not going to be able to flesh out everything in the story, that consist of science fiction gadgets.

For example, look at the liquid metal man in Terminator 2, did they explain how a machine can flow like water. How do you build such a machine, someone had to build it? No one thought twice about it, all the audience knew is that he was the coolest freakin' killing machine that was a visual sight to behold, because the story was tight and right!

[Young Superman]

See that's the problem. How are they gonna explain that this kid who hasn't got a pot to piss in can create a formula that has the qualities of spider webbing? And then create the web shooter itself?

Back in the day when Spidey was first created i don't think too much thought was put into it. Because back then no one would care, because they had never seen something like Spider-Man before.

The mentality of people in this day and age is much, much different. They need things to be at least slightly plausible.

You make some good points.

[Captain America]

The thing is, it will feel real depending on how it's directed. You just simply don't need to explain every little detail. The audience already knows before the credit rolls, that you're not going to be able to flesh out everything in the story, that consist of science fiction gadgets.

For example, look at the liquid metal man in Terminator 2, did they explain how a machine can flow like water. How do you build such a machine, someone had to build it? No one thought twice about it, all the audience knew is that he was the coolest freakin' killing machine that was a visual sight to behold, because the story was tight and right!

Agreed... We don't need every detail explained, by no means. And yes, most things in a comic book movie can be made cool/interesting if directed properly :up: But if there is an opportunity to give something an interesting explanation, then they should... But they shouldn't by any means alter the story vastly just to make something like the web-shooters realistic. But to some audiences the definition of "cool" is a tad different then in the early 90's. Me personally, I really need no more then a simple explanation for such things - Why does Doc Ock have four mechanical arms? well because he needed them a science project... Why is he a villain? well because the project went wrong and destroyed the inhibitor chip which ensured that he kept control over them, instead them controlling him. :cwink:

[©KAW]

And you will have that explanation in the web-shooters. How did Peter build the mechanical web-shooters? He's a gifted teen inventor. How did he develop the web-fluid? He's a chemistry genius. That's all the audience needs to know in order to accept mechanical web-shooters.

You don't even have to go into how much it cost, as long as you show him using simple every day chemicals. Pretty much how some people can make highly explosive war-like bombs, using simple chemicals that you can buy from Wal-Mart. And they're not even a genius like Peter Parker.

[Infinity9999x]

See that's the problem. How are they gonna explain that this kid who hasn't got a pot to piss in can create a formula that has the qualities of spider webbing? And then create the web shooter itself?

Back in the day when Spidey was first created i don't think too much thought was put into it. Because back then no one would care, because they had never seen something like Spider-Man before.

The mentality of people in this day and age is much, much different. They need things to be at least slightly plausible.

In a movie where a boy gets bitten by a spider that gives him super powers, you think people are going to be disbelieving Pete's ability to make web shooters?

I can see where you're coming from Ace, but I think the general public would swallow it just fine. I mean, they bought that Tony Stark helped invent the internet as a teen, and was able to make a fully functioning suit of destruction in a cave, so I think they would be able to buy Pete making the web shooters. Especially if they play up his formidable IQ.

[Ipodman]

How will the web shooters fit into his gloves anyway. There would be something bulging out

[Shikamaru]

I prefer mechanical webshooters.

[Shikamaru]

I prefer mechanical webshooters.

[Chris Wallace]

See that's the problem. How are they gonna explain that this kid who hasn't got a pot to piss in can create a formula that has the qualities of spider webbing? And then create the web shooter itself?

Back in the day when Spidey was first created i don't think too much thought was put into it. Because back then no one would care, because they had never seen something like Spider-Man before.

The mentality of people in this day and age is much, much different. They need things to be at least slightly plausible.

Why do we worry so much about explaining? Did they really need an explanation for how "Tony Stark was able to build (his armor) in a cave from a box of scraps"? Do they need an explanation for how somebody can "curve" a bullet? Do they need an explanation for how a lightsaber works? Or how a vampire can drink blood without fangs? Or how an Avatar is even REMOTELY possible? Why overthink it?

[mre]

I think Peter without web-shooters is the same as taking away his job at the Bugle.
Why did they never feel the need to explain how Peter got all these close up shots of Spider-Man climbing up buildings? Or why no one was ever suspicious of that fact?

[Donald Thomas]

See that's the problem. How are they gonna explain that this kid who hasn't got a pot to piss in can create a formula that has the qualities of spider webbing? And then create the web shooter itself?

Back in the day when Spidey was first created i don't think too much thought was put into it. Because back then no one would care, because they had never seen something like Spider-Man before.

The mentality of people in this day and age is much, much different. They need things to be at least slightly plausible.

Aloha,
The web shooters are an integral part of the character Spider-Man. No other character in science fiction has such a device. Gunfighters have six shooters, Swashbucklers have swords, Star Wars Jedi Knights have Light Sabers, Star Trek Federation members have phasers, Dick Tracy has the Two Way Wrist Radio, but Spider-Man and only Spider-Man has a unique devise called web shooters. They are a means of transportation as well as defensive and offensive weaponry.

That the movie would imitate everything about the web shooters except the web shooters themselves is proof of the importance of them. If Spider-Man has organic webbing why does he have to press his two fingers into his palms?

The character Peter Parker represents one of the first teenagers to star in his own comic book. Prior to this, teenagers were the side kicks for adult Super Heroes. At 16, Peter Parker was Spider-Man, a boy/genius, whose greatest invention( which he can never take public credit for) is the web shooters and webbing. His genius, angst and altruism are part of what makes his character so enduring. That Mr. Raimi would state that he couldn't see Peter Parker creating something that 3M couldn't make, is both insulting and confusing. Val Kilmer's( Batman ) breakout movie was Real Genius. In this movie, he and several other students, the principle being a 16 year old character, created a Laser device similar to the United States Star Wars program. Angelina Jolie played in the movie Hackers, where she and several High School students, had the intellectual capacity to hack into Top Secret Industrial files. In the comedy Weird Science, we have High School students developing their own woman in the form of Kelly LeBroc. Mathew Broderick in War Games showed how a High School student could match wits with a Super computer. In the Philadelphia Experiment we have a High School student played by Christopher Collett, who developed a nuclear device with stolen radioactive materials and Radio Shack parts. All of these movies came out years after the Stan Lee/Steve Ditko created character Peter Parker, 16 year old High School Science whiz, was created. For all of the success of the Spider-Man movies, (a success I support because it brings people into the comic books ), the Spider-Man movie franchise can never reach it's full potential until it presents the complete Peter Parker/Spider-Man character. That character can only be complete with web shooters and Peter Parker created webbing.
Spidey rules with authenticity

[©KAW]

Wonderfully said Donald, now let's get those words to Marc Webb while there's still time.

[spider-neil]

how do you explain a teen can produce the most advanced adhesive known to man?

answer: he's a genius

the end.

[Spider-Fan83]

it's also been implied, that the knowledge of how to create the chemical compound in making up the webbing was passed down from the spider DNA
(sorry, I don't remember exactly how it was said, idk if I am explaining it right)

just if you need more of an explanation then him just being that smart

[Venomfan]

this is the kid that Reed Richards has said is just as smart as he was at that age. web shooters are no problem

[spider-neil]

this is the kid that Reed Richards has said is just as smart as he was at that age. web shooters are no problem


when did he say that?

[terry78]

I think Peter without web-shooters is the same as taking away his job at the Bugle.
Why did they never feel the need to explain how Peter got all these close up shots of Spider-Man climbing up buildings? Or why no one was ever suspicious of that fact?

You need to axe Stan the Man that one.

[Venomfan]

when did he say that?
one of the spiderman and human torch comics

[Chris Wallace]

Much as I perfer the organics, I cannot support the most recent arguments against the webshooters. Citing them as unrealistic is really working my nerves. Comic books are not realistic. They aren't meant to be. Ergot, the movies that they inspire aren't realistic. Keep pushing for realism & all we're gonna end up with is crappy movies.

[FVD]

I selected Mechanical Webshooters for the fact that whenever he's in battle and he runs out, I'd find it a little funny and perhaps he'd say something about it to himself too. I'd hope it would make the fights a little more dynamic IMHO.

[Goran]

I really liked the idea of organics used in Raimis trilogy.
But I kinda like to see something new in the reboot. It'd be interesting to see how Webb and his team would translate web shooters to the big screen.

Of course it might seem like they'd changed it just for the sake of it.

[Droogoonie789]

You know what would freakin rock? If Peter composed the web-fluid itself, but the device was a modified Stark product. I'd have a joygasm.

[Donald Thomas]

how do you explain a teen can produce the most advanced adhesive known to man?

answer: he's a genius

the end.

Aloha,
Peter Parker is one of the unrecognized geniuses within the Marvel Universe .As long as he has a secret identity, he can NEVER take credit for the creation of (dissolving Super Glue=Webbing) and a projection device that works under high pressure=web shooters.In the movies, Tony Stark is acknowledged as being a creative genius at a young age.What would have been so hard to portray Peter as one? And, in Parker's case, he had to scrimp and save to get the parts and ingredients to make his inventions.Once he started making money off of TV appearances, he had more money to make better webbing and shooters, NOT to buy a car!
Spidey rules

[david icke]

Aloha,
Peter Parker is one of the unrecognized geniuses within the Marvel Universe .As long as he has a secret identity, he can NEVER take credit for the creation of (dissolving Super Glue=Webbing) and a projection device that works under high pressure=web shooters.In the movies, Tony Stark is acknowledged as being a creative genius at a young age.What would have been so hard to portray Peter as one? And, in Parker's case, he had to scrimp and save to get the parts and ingredients to make his inventions.Once he started making money off of TV appearances, he had more money to make better webbing and shooters, NOT to buy a car!
Spidey rules

so howcome he doesn't keep on coming up with the inventions if he's such a big genuis? reed richards and tony stark...there's no stopping their inspiration, pete would still come up with designs even if he had no money to actualise his inventions.

simple answer is...it's not *that* big and important a characteristic of spider-man. It's a convieniance of inspiration they came up with so they could give the character webs in the old days, Stan said they wouldn't have been allowed by the editor to give him organics back then.
It's a very minor point of parker's characteristics in comparison to others, and we're not losing much of anything if they don't go with that aspect.

[Chris Wallace]

You know what would freakin rock? If Peter composed the web-fluid itself, but the device was a modified Stark product. I'd have a joygasm.

And you know they can't do that.
Besides, Stark would come after him for stealing his design.

[Droogoonie789]

And you know they can't do that.
Besides, Stark would come after him for stealing his design.

Why can't they?
And I'm not saying the original Stark product would be a wrist-shooter, the shooters would be constructed from it.

[TheWallCrawler]

Why can't they?
And I'm not saying the original Stark product would be a wrist-shooter, the shooters would be constructed from it.

what he means is that tony stark/ironman can't be in any way a part of the spiderman reboot because sony owns spiderman and Marvel studios owns Ironman. That's actually one reason for spiderman not being in the up coming avengers movie. And one reason is ofcourse that spiderman never was in the original avengers, but anyway, getting a little off the main topic.

basicly, a character owned by marvel studios cannot be in spiderman movies owned by sony. Unless they make some contracts, but that's probably not gonna happend

[spider-neil]

the bottom line is the audience will buy anything explained to them proprerly.
if there is a montage of peter constructing the web shooters, constructing and experimenting with web cartridges and coming up with the formula for web fluid then the audience will buy it, they would have no reason not to.

all the above could happen in the opening credits

opening credits 2-3 minutes presented like a comic book

gets bitten on the field trip - 20 secs
sequence of him jumping out of the way of a car and climbing wall, lifting care - 20 secs
sequence of peter making webs, webshooters and costume- 20 secs
sequence of peter wrestling for money/crook running past him - 20 secs
peter comes home to see police cars outside his house, learns his father has been murdered - 20 secs
peter learns crook is the same guy he let get past him - 20 secs
peter fighting a b list villian - 20 secs

opening credits end with comic book peter in class which blends to live action

[Droogoonie789]

what he means is that tony stark/ironman can't be in any way a part of the spiderman reboot because sony owns spiderman and Marvel studios owns Ironman. That's actually one reason for spiderman not being in the up coming avengers movie. And one reason is ofcourse that spiderman never was in the original avengers, but anyway, getting a little off the main topic.

basicly, a character owned by marvel studios cannot be in spiderman movies owned by sony. Unless they make some contracts, but that's probably not gonna happend

Well Hulk and Iron Man were made by two seperate studios, but yeah they were mainly owned by Marvel Studios. Let's hope Sony will co-operate and let Spidey be part of the new Marvel Movieverse. That would be the way to go, because they would not only make money off their Spider-Man movies but also off of the Avengers movies. And it'd be freakin awesome :awesome:

[Ajendo]

so howcome he doesn't keep on coming up with the inventions if he's such a big genuis? reed richards and tony stark...there's no stopping their inspiration, pete would still come up with designs even if he had no money to actualise his inventions.

simple answer is...it's not *that* big and important a characteristic of spider-man. It's a convieniance of inspiration they came up with so they could give the character webs in the old days, Stan said they wouldn't have been allowed by the editor to give him organics back then.
It's a very minor point of parker's characteristics in comparison to others, and we're not losing much of anything if they don't go with that aspect.

I disagree. The answer is simple. Peter simply doesn't have as much time nor the resources that Stark and Richards has. The majority of Peter's life is spent worrying and panicking about his ridiculous and overbearing sense of responsibility. One could even suggest that being spider-man and the tragedies that have occurred in his life have left him somewhat traumatised. The little bit of peace he has in his life where he can momentarily stop for a breather is spent with MJ or aunt May but there's always something going on or that Peter feels the need to involve himself with that deters him from reaching his potential as one of the best scientists in the MU.

[david icke]

I disagree. The answer is simple. Peter simply doesn't have as much time nor the resources that Stark and Richards has. The majority of Peter's life is spent worrying and panicking about his ridiculous and overbearing sense of responsibility. One could even suggest that being spider-man and the tragedies that have occurred in his life have left him somewhat traumatised. The little bit of peace he has in his life where he can momentarily stop for a breather is spent with MJ or aunt May but there's always something going on or that Peter feels the need to involve himself with that deters him from reaching his potential as one of the best scientists in the MU.

so, let me get this straight, you expect me to not only buy that excuse, but you also expect me to buy the fact that he just so happens to come up with a revolutionary new web like formula just a couple of days after he gets spider powers?

edit: because you know what, if he truly is a genius on a par with stark and reed, nothing is going to get in the way of his scientific invention coming through, no matter what is going on in his life, even if it's just an hour a week sitting at a desk designing something. the ff and iron-man have plenty on their plate as well don't forget, that's not much of an excuse in this area. no, it's a flawed concept, these refs to pete being just as great as reed and stark, it's just a way to explain the webbing, and then you just ignore the fact he has not done anything else. he can still be a very brilliant scientist, just not on their level, their level of genuis would not be contained to that degree of doing absolutely nothing else.
ok, maybe he has the potential to be up there, but that is still just a convienient way of explaining the webbing, these type of refs.
he can still be brilliant, it's just that both of them, reed especially, are on a whole other level.
but it still doesn't take care of the fact that it is a big coincidence for a modern audience to swallow, that he just so happens to have the resources and knowledge to make a revolutionary new web like substance right after he gets spider powers.


this is why the 90s cartoon tried to link in the webbing formula with some kind of knowledge passed on by the spider dna. if i was to watch a movie with that storyline, i would want some kind of link like that.
they could do it like john paul valley/azreal in 'knightfall' when he took over from batman, his 'programming' from the order of saint dumas kicks in, and he starts designing weaponary for his new batman costume.
so, like that, pete goes into a trance like state, not really knowing what he's doing, but starts instinctively to mix up certain chemicals, and comes up with the webbing.
a mixture of his top science skills, and knowledge of the formula needed supplied by his spider dna programming.
and i'm not talking about a trance like state like a zombie, just like the batman thing, he starts doing the experiments automatically, and then at the end of it he goes ' i...made this? wow, i must have more spider in me than i realized.'

coincidence taken care of, pete is still ascience wiz, kids get to buy mecha web shooters, everybody happy, thankyew.

[Ajendo]

Ok I never said Peter was on par with Richards and Stark. I don't believe he is but he's not far off from being in their league.

Also, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that a super intelligent kid who has nothing but free time on his hands to put his knowledge to use and create webbing and scrape together materials to create web shooters. He's just become spider-man, at this moment in time he's got nothing to worry about on the superhero front and of course with his new abilities he wants to explore and accessorize, which he did.

because you know what, if he truly is a genius on a par with stark and reed, nothing is going to get in the way of his scientific invention coming through, no matter what is going on in his life, even if it's just an hour a week sitting at a desk designing something. the ff and iron-man have plenty on their plate as well don't forget, that's not much of an excuse in this area.

Not buying this at all. With that logic Peter would have left the bugle years ago and would have got an amazing job where the least he could do is put his scientific genius to use; which he did at one point but guess what, his duties of being spider-man took precedence, which resulted in him losing out on the job. Yes, Stark and Richards have their own burdens but they don't even come close to the burdens and pressures Peter is put under. Richards has the support of his team members not to mention the resources at his disposal and it's a similar story with Stark.

I think you don't understand or at the very least underestimate the impact of adverse factors that are apparent in Peter's life. They consume him and serve as too big a distraction from allowing Peter to live the life he should be living.

Peter is constantly fighting for a moment of normality in his life and for the most part he does this all by his lonesome. Worrying about things that matter most to him to trivial things in comparrisson that he blows out of proportion simply because his sense of responsibility guilts him above all else. Peter can't be expected to further his scientific discoveries on a more ground breaking scale because he hasn't been a rational person since the age of 15. He was tasked with more pressing matters since his mid teens and since then, as much as he loves science, as genius a mind he has, all of that takes a back seat because to Peter, in the grand scheme of things in his life, it's not a priority.

Stark and Richards never had to deal with the crap Peter's been dealing with at age 15. Peter in actual fact was a child when he became man of the house after Ben died and when he became spider-man. Stark and Richards were full grown adults with resources. Peter's life has always been an uphill struggle. Always. All in all, Peter's creative genius shines when the situation calls for it, other than that, he's got bigger fish to fry as they say.

[david icke]

Also, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that a super intelligent kid who has nothing but free time on his hands to put his knowledge to use and create webbing and scrape together materials to create web shooters. He's just become spider-man, at this moment in time he's got nothing to worry about on the superhero front and of course with his new abilities he wants to explore and accessorize, which he did.


you are blipping over the fact of the matter...it's a super, space age material that would have an incredible impact if someone invented it in today's world. It's not just 'webbing' as you put it so simply.

You take that fact, and take the fact that he somehow, amazingly, by major coincidence, comes up with the exact formula for this futuristic scifi miracle material that is like spider's webbing made large, right after he is imbued with spider powers, and you have an enormous pill that a modern audience has to swallow. It is a stupid story conceit.
If you were to put that kind of major coincidence into a great short story, your editor would tell you to go back and either re-write it to make it work better(like that way I suggested, do it like Jean Paul Valley), or change it (like the organics).
As it is, it's a terrible bit of writing for sci-fi, but it was fine in a cb back then, no-one gave it much thought. In a major movie, it's just a jump too far, a lazy conceit to squeeze in another outlandish concept.
Even if he is a genuis, he just manages to come up with *that* particular stroke of scientific ingenuity, right after that happens to him?
Again, it's why they tried to link the concepts in the 90s show, as it's a bad bit of coincidence squeezed in. It is bad writing, whether you like it or not, there it is.
But, there are solutions to tweak it into good writing.

and as for whether Pete is in that same league as reed etc, we could be here all day arguing the semantics of that. I said what I thought about that, so did you, it's not a thing that is quantifiable, so let's just drop that aspect of the debate.

at the end of the day, it does not have much bearing on the amazing coincidence.

edit: although i would argue he would have to be in the same league as reed richards, maybe even his superior, in order to turn around one day, decide he wants to make this type of miracle material, and hey presto, he conjures it up no problem in a couple of days. someone with that type of intellect would be bursting with formula, it's ridiculous to say they would be pressed for time, he did that in a couple of days to order, *nothing* else occurs to him for the rest of his life? Ridiculous.

[Dragon]

you are blipping over the fact of the matter...it's a super, space age material that would have an incredible impact if someone invented it in today's world. It's not just 'webbing' as you put it so simply.

Iron Man and Iron Man 2 crush this argument. In IM, Stark builds an arc reactor in a cave with scraps. In IM2 Vanko builds an arc reactor in his home from scraps. This is an invention that is not only leaps and bounds more complex than webshooters, but would revolutionize energy production for the world, and can obviously be built for NOTHING. Yet Neither te altruistic Stark or the criminally-inclined Vanko do anything with it other than power their weapon systems.

And guess what? The audience didn't walk out, hate the movie or go on about how unbelievable it is. And they wouldn't do it with Peter and his webshooters either.

[david icke]

Iron Man and Iron Man 2 crush this argument. In IM, Stark builds an arc reactor in a cave with scraps. In IM2 Vanko builds an arc reactor in his home from scraps. This is an invention that is not only leaps and bounds more complex than webshooters, but would revolutionize energy production for the world, and can obviously be built for NOTHING. Yet Neither te altruistic Stark or the criminally-inclined Vanko do anything with it other than power their weapon systems.

And guess what? The audience didn't walk out, hate the movie or go on about how unbelievable it is. And they wouldn't do it with Peter and his webshooters either.

Yet, these are movies based entirely around technological advancements, that these guys are the best of the best, so an audience is more accepting. They did not work from scratch and come up with it in a couple of days, and then go on to have no further inspirations.
So what he made it in a cave? He was given high tech materials to build weaponary that he converted into something he had already been working on.

Scraps? Em, they may not have been in the best condition, but he also obviously had high tech equipment to work with. He wasn't using the inside of a toaster and a waffle maker right?

Dragon my friend, I was put in your compactor, yes, but you failed to see that i deftly unplugged the machine from the wall before you even pressed the 'crush' button.

[GoblinsBack2K7]

I think regardless of organics or webshooters it would be an interesting scene where he comes against enemies who disable his webs, forcing him to fight...and while it shouldn't be any specific style of martial art, I'm sure something could be choreographed...just look at Black Widow in Iron Man 2 and imagine Spider-Man, with his heightened abilities!
kf6GB3BNaBo

[Dragon]

Yet, these are movies based entirely around technological advancements, that these guys are the best of the best, so an audience is more accepting.

David, come on. You're not actually arguing that the general movie audience is scrutinizing of character development and establishmment. Because I can point to several hundred top grossing movies that prove otherwise.

And secondly, following your reasoning, the very fact that these films are technoliogy-focused means that the audience would be even more sensitive to implausibilities. Since the webshooters are balanced against even more far-fetched bio-science, the latter would be open to greater scrutiny.

And thirdly, Peter is established as being the best. The smartest kid in his school and a shoe-in for a scientific scholarship. Meanwhile- in both IM and IM2, at the point wherein Stark and Vanko develop the arc reactors, they aren't established as being the best at anything. Particularly Vanko. We know nothing about him. In Stark's case he's merely established as being a clever guy with alot of money. There's nothing to suggest that he alone is responsible for Stark Int'l's advanced tech. In both films, it's the building of the reactor itself that establishes their genius.


They did not work from scratch and come up with it in a couple of days, and then go on to have no further inspirations. So what he made it in a cave? He was given high tech materials to build weaponary that he converted into something he had already been working on.


Stark did. And let's compare this- revolutionary power source - glorified squirt gun. It didn't need to take Peter several years to develop the webshooters.

And Stark was given WHAT? He was given some missiles and some basic tools to build something that would take DOZENS of technicians and doznes of skilled laborers to build within a state-of-the -art munitions facility. There wouldn't be the proper power load in that cave, the type of precise equipment needed. It didn't even have proper lighting. There are chemicals that have to be refrigerated. The machinery has to be maintained and kept iimaculately clean. Not likely in a cave. The types of equipment Stark's plant uses aren't available at the corner hardware store and certainly not in the desert in the Middle East.

As for Peter having no further inspirations?

Spider Tracers.
Various types of webbing mixtures. (Fireproff, coolant, eletrical conductors, chemical solvents)
Devices to jam the Vulture's wings and Ock's control of his tentacles.
He figured out several ways to reverse the Lizard transformations.

And- in the films, Peter would have come up with other innovations if the writer/director had ALLOWED him to.


Scraps? Em, they may not have been in the best condition, but he also obviously had high tech equipment to work with. He wasn't using the inside of a toaster and a waffle maker right?

He was using materials purchsed cheaply from hardware and electronics outlets. Just as Peter would be.

Dragon my friend, I was put in your compactor, yes, but you failed to see that i deftly unplugged the machine from the wall before you even pressed the 'crush' button.

I didn't say that my argument crushed YOU. I was referring to your argument which has been echoed by EVERYONE in the pro-organics camp from Jim Cameron to Sam Raimi on down.

[david icke]

Stark did. And let's compare this- revolutionary power source - glorified squirt gun. It didn't need to take Peter several years to develop the webshooters.

c'mon, it is not the mechanism i am talking about, it is the miracle material, that goes way beyong squirt gun. if that material was invented today it would have a major impact on the world, think about it. law enforcement could use it, rescue workers of varying types, construction, and many more uses i can't imagine right now.
they could probably use it to web up that big oil spill that is going on right now, instead of trying to use a big metal container.

And Stark was given WHAT? He was given some missiles and some basic tools to build something that would take DOZENS of technicians and doznes of skilled laborers to build within a state-of-the -art munitions facility. There wouldn't be the proper power load in that cave, the type of precise equipment needed. It didn't even have proper lighting. There are chemicals that have to be refrigerated. The machinery has to be maintained and kept iimaculately clean. Not likely in a cave. The types of equipment Stark's plant uses aren't available at the corner hardware store and certainly not in the desert in the Middle East.

extension plugs, i'm sure they had a couple of those running round to someone's house.
seriously though, they had power sources.
yes, it is a push, but that is what the audience is buying into going to see Iron-Man, a tech genuis, just as they are buying into a guy getting spider-powers when they buy a ticket for spidey.

as for what you were saying earler about audience acceptance, yes, they very well will accept the instant coincidence of miracle webbing invention, but that doesn't mean more discerning folk will, it is bad sci-fi writing, that one conceit.

it's equivalent for iron-man would be... after inventing all his gear, and us accepting that, stark falls into a vat of chemicals, that by great coincidence , give him a mix of metal alloy in his skin that allows him to bond with machines organically and tell them what to do.
that's as big a coincidence as a guy getting spider-powers, then suddenly deciding to create a miracle webbing, and finding that he can do exactly that no problem, in the space of a couple of days.

As for Peter having no further inspirations?

Spider Tracers.
Various types of webbing mixtures. (Fireproff, coolant, eletrical conductors, chemical solvents)
Devices to jam the Vulture's wings and Ock's control of his tentacles.
He figured out several ways to reverse the Lizard transformations.

yeah, i never said he was not to be portrayed as a brilliant scientist, and none of those achievements are in the same 'reed richards' like league of creating the formula for miracle webbing at the drop of a hat.

spider-tracers - creating his own circuit board basedd on existing tracing tech but adjusting it to tune into his own special wavelength. nothing revolutionary.

jamming the vultures wings - figuring out how another scientist is managing to do something, and then jamming his signal. a talented scientist can do this, reed not needed.

lizard serum - working from the formula that conners created, and creating a counter formula. again, very, very good work, but not reed richards material, not in the same league as creating miracle webbing off the cuff in one easy swoop.
the other types of webbing you cited are spin offs of his one big breakthrough, variations on the miracle web formula.

Yes, audiences are not going to stand up and walk out, and maybe it will not bother most people if they do the 'big coincidence'.
But that does not stop it being bad writing and the catch all explanation, 'he's a genuis' does not cut it, because anyone, who came up with a revolutionary miracle formula like that after a couple of days, would be bursting at the seams with other formula and revolutionary ideas, that is the nature of true genuis of that reed richards level, there would be no keeping it down, even with things that pete has in his life.
So in the end it is a story conceit, a big coincidence we are expected to swallow, bad writing, but it could be tweaked into something better if they linked it to the spider-powers directly. The information in the spider DNA helping along his natural talent as a scientist.
The dna putting him into a trance and passing along inherant information like that would be like giving an artist a set of oil paints and a canvas, if they did not have the talent and practise they would not be able to produce great art with it. So the fact that he is a talented brilliant scientist means the dna information can work through him.

so the brilliant scientist aspect is still there, *and* the big coincidence is taken care of in one fell swoop, with a simple tweak, and it's no longer bad writing.


btw i now have the music from the nicholas hammond pilot going through my head, from the part where he is building his mechanicals and developing his miracle washing line webbing. doo de doo do do doo doo- de doo doo do doo doo do do-.

[Ajendo]

you are blipping over the fact of the matter...it's a super, space age material that would have an incredible impact if someone invented it in today's world. It's not just 'webbing' as you put it so simply.

Actually, it is just webbing. It's a biodegrable substance that dissolves after an hour. It's use and application is stringently limited; which is why Peter uses it for web-slinging and other short-term applications. Also, look at the likes of paste pot pete. His polymer is near identical to Peter's yet instead of introducing it as a scientific break through, the clown would rather commit crimes. Peter is the opposite side to that logic. At the end of the day, this can be regarded as a lame argument on my part but it is a fact, it's just a cartoon with illogical senarios and premises that work within the boundaries they set. We're talking about a kid with spider-powers for crying out loud. Him being a genius isn't a sretch to believe that he can experiment with chemicals to create a unique substance. Trying to intellecualise it is a complete wast of time, especially after it's been a staple for nearly 50 years. And most importantly, the fundamental fact is, nobody eally cares or is going to walk out of the film thinking it sucks just because in reality it would be impossible for a kid to create mechs and webbing.

You take that fact, and take the fact that he somehow, amazingly, by major coincidence, comes up with the exact formula for this futuristic scifi miracle material that is like spider's webbing made large, right after he is imbued with spider powers, and you have an enormous pill that a modern audience has to swallow. It is a stupid story conceit.

Agreed but the alternative, organics is just as stupid. We could break this down to how stupid and illogical the character is but that in itself is stupid because we're talking about a fictional character in the first place. Naturally producing webbing is no more stupid than creating webbing, at least creating mechs and webbing is actually feasible by compaisson to orgs.

If you were to put that kind of major coincidence into a great short story, your editor would tell you to go back and either re-write it to make it work better(like that way I suggested, do it like Jean Paul Valley), or change it (like the organics).

I'm not sure you understand the parameters in which comic book stories operate. This isn't some great short story as you put it, it's a comic book. A comic book based on a character who is an entire company's flagship. You can talk about making things work better but the mechs concept isn't broken and is a characteristic trait that is signature to all who know the character.


As it is, it's a terrible bit of writing for sci-fi, but it was fine in a cb back then, no-one gave it much thought. In a major movie, it's just a jump too far, a lazy conceit to squeeze in another outlandish concept.

In your opinion. Yes its an outlandish concept but I don't believe for a second it's lazy or taking things too far. It works within the universe it's set in. I appreciate you have issues with it and of course you don't have to like it but the fact is, the geneal consensus doesn't give a f*** and why should they. It's fantasy, it's nonsense of the highest order, just roll with it or don't.

Even if he is a genuis, he just manages to come up with *that* particular stroke of scientific ingenuity, right after that happens to him?

I've already explained this.

Again, it's why they tried to link the concepts in the 90s show, as it's a bad bit of coincidence squeezed in. It is bad writing, whether you like it or not, there it is.
But, there are solutions to tweak it into good writing.

Are you seriously trying to tell me the 90s TAS had a better alternative? The spider-bite uploaded it's DNA coding to make artificial webbing? That's a step back if we're talking what's logical.


edit: although i would argue he would have to be in the same league as reed richards, maybe even his superior, in order to turn around one day, decide he wants to make this type of miracle material, and hey presto, he conjures it up no problem in a couple of days. someone with that type of intellect would be bursting with formula, it's ridiculous to say they would be pressed for time, he did that in a couple of days to order, *nothing* else occurs to him for the rest of his life? Ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be missing the fundemental aspect that, peter isn't looking for fame and fortune. Once upon a time he did and because of it, he lost his uncle which is the foundation of his guilt and overbearing sense of responsibility. His mechs and webbing are all the tools he really needs to aid what he does for the mahority of his time. Also, over the years, Peter has re-engineered his mechs and strengthned his webbing so it's not as though it was a one time deal and left it at that. Scientific breakthroughsis something he'd love to spend his time trying to achieve but in the grand scheme of what's going on his life, it's simply not a priority.

[david icke]

I'm not sure you understand the parameters in which comic book stories operate. This isn't some great short story as you put it, it's a comic book. A comic book based on a character who is an entire company's flagship. You can talk about making things work better but the mechs concept isn't broken and is a characteristic trait that is signature to all who know the character.





No, I think you are forgetting, or don't know, the origins of the character. Amazing Fantasy no15 was written as a 'Twilight Zone' type sci-fi short story, that is what 'Amazing Fantasy was as a series. Sci-fi short stories that usually involved a twist at the end.
There were no plans for an ongoing Spider-man series, until there was demand as the public responded to the story. Ok, maybe they hoped for some, but Stan has said he thought he might never hear about the story or character again, it was the final issue of a cancelled comic, so he did the story exactly how he wanted as he had nothing to lose. He was thinking of quitting the biz, and his wife said 'Before you do that, why not write one the way you think they should be done, if you're going to quit anyway, why not?' and as a result of this convo he wrote AF15. He tells this story on the comicbook documentary film, 'cb confidential.'

It is a truly great, perfect short story, apart from the conceit that he happened to come up with this miracle webbing just after being imbued with spiderpowers.

As for all of your other points...I already answered all of those questions in my later posts in response to Dragon. I don't know why you didn't just respond to those points if you had rebuttals. So, I'm not ging to type up the same responses all over again, my position and opinion on *why* the alternatives are more kosher from a storytelling p.o.v. are all there, disagree with them if you must, but my opinion has already been quite clearly stated in response to *all* your latest questions.

[Chris Wallace]

Lack of realism is not a good reason NOT to go with mechs.
The possibility of running out of web fluid is not a good reason TO go with mechs.
And those who are pushing for mechs because it's closer to the comics while also pushing for a "more realistic" costume are really starting to annoy me.

[david icke]

Lack of realism is not a good reason NOT to go with mechs.

I don't see why an adversion to a part of a story that requires the audience to swallow a massive pill of coincidence and unlikelyhood is not a good enough reason.


The possibility of running out of web fluid is not a good reason TO go with mechs.

why not? making them mechanical means things can go wrong with them in the midst of battle, giving the all powerful hero another weakness his enemy can exploit.


And those who are pushing for mechs because it's closer to the comics while also pushing for a "more realistic" costume are really starting to annoy me.

This I agree with and don't understand. Suspension of disbelief over sewing skills in a far remove from creating a miracle substance to order in no time at all.

[Chris Wallace]

I don't see why an adversion to a part of a story that requires the audience to swallow a massive pill of coincidence and unlikelyhood is not a good enough reason.



why not? making them mechanical means things can go wrong with them in the midst of battle, giving the all powerful hero another weakness his enemy can exploit.



This I agree with and don't understand. Suspension of disbelief over sewing skills in a far remove from creating a miracle substance to order in no time at all.

My first statement really ties into my third, as it stems from hypocrisy. We go to movies about people who, by some bizarre twist of fate, aquire abilities that DON'T EXIST in the real world and have been led to cry foul over elements that are unrealistic. While I am pro-organics, my main reason is because it lends itself to his having the attributes of a spider without having to artificially supplement them. NOT because web-shooters are unrealistic.
My second statement is based on the fact that 1-we've seen his webbing fail him in Spider-Man 2. There is little to no difference visually between him running out of artificial web fluid and the psychological barrier that prevented him from generating his natural webbing. Either way, it's not the kind of plot device that I find essential. I don't go to a Batman movie hoping to see him run out of Batarangs. I don't go to an Iron Man movie hoping his repulsors will misfire. And honestly, after a while you'd think Spidey would find a way to upgrade his web-shooters; enable them to hold more fluid. Build an indicator guage to warn him when he's running low. Make the cartridges more compact s o he can carry more. (Don't bring up the "unrealism" of these devices, please.) Everybody else improves on their crime-fighting arsenal, why not him? ESPECIALLY when it consists of one thing. Plus it's up to the writers. He can have mechs & still have an infinite supply of webbing if the writers so choose. He can have organics and be unable to generate silk because he didn't have a good breakfast if the writers so choose. I would kind of like to see this happen as it would be a good learning experience for a neophyte, adolescant superhero.

[david icke]

My first statement really ties into my third, as it stems from hypocrisy. We go to movies about people who, by some bizarre twist of fate, aquire abilities that DON'T EXIST in the real world and have been led to cry foul over elements that are unrealistic. While I am pro-organics, my main reason is because it lends itself to his having the attributes of a spider without having to artificially supplement them. NOT because web-shooters are unrealistic.
My second statement is based on the fact that 1-we've seen his webbing fail him in Spider-Man 2. There is little to no difference visually between him running out of artificial web fluid and the psychological barrier that prevented him from generating his natural webbing. Either way, it's not the kind of plot device that I find essential. I don't go to a Batman movie hoping to see him run out of Batarangs. I don't go to an Iron Man movie hoping his repulsors will misfire. And honestly, after a while you'd think Spidey would find a way to upgrade his web-shooters; enable them to hold more fluid. Build an indicator guage to warn him when he's running low. Make the cartridges more compact s o he can carry more. (Don't bring up the "unrealism" of these devices, please.) Everybody else improves on their crime-fighting arsenal, why not him? ESPECIALLY when it consists of one thing. Plus it's up to the writers. He can have mechs & still have an infinite supply of webbing if the writers so choose. He can have organics and be unable to generate silk because he didn't have a good breakfast if the writers so choose. I would kind of like to see this happen as it would be a good learning experience for a neophyte, adolescant superhero.

No, I disagree, I don't think it's hypocritical to go with the powers, but then not buy the fact he somehow manages to come up with a miracle formula in a couple of days that is like a spider's web rite large.
One is acceptance of a science fiction turn of events with the powers, while the other concept on top of that is a major coincidence of convinience that is just a lazy, 'they'll believe that, so they'll believe anything' plot point. All it needs is a little tweak to link it to the spider dna mixing with the human that bestows an inherant knowledge of how to mix up a webbing suitable for this new species of spider, nature always finds a way.

and the fact that you have highlighted and asked me not to complain about the tech of the web-shooting wrist band devices themselves makes me think you only understand my opinion on a superficial level. I have no problem with Parker being a talented scientist who can invent such devices for propulsion, it's the fact of the miraclespider-like webs being invented, and right off the bat after he gets the spider-powers that i think is the weak link. That's all, and all it needs is a little tidy up to make it more paltable, and less of a clumsy convienient plot point.
There are sci-fi books like 'BattleField Earth' anbd then there are ones like 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?'(Blade Runner), both are examples of stories that are full of unreal science fiction, but one is ill thought out mediocrity, and the other is a carefully constructed thought provoking piece.
And part of the reason why that is is because the concepts in the good book are not built on such crappy clumsy coincidences such as cavemen of a post apocalyptic future happening to find an untouched air force base full of brand new fighter jets and flight simulator that they can train themselves with to fight off the very spaceships that defeated the earth's armies in the first place.
I am talking about tidying up the writing to make the story go down better, a necesary when it comes to seperating good science fictionn from mediocre, because they are all full of 'unreal' concepts.

[Dragon]

c'mon, it is not the mechanism i am talking about, it is the miracle material, that goes way beyong squirt gun. if that material was invented today it would have a major impact on the world, think about it. law enforcement could use it, rescue workers of varying types, construction, and many more uses i can't imagine right now.
they could probably use it to web up that big oil spill that is going on right now, instead of trying to use a big metal container.

Okay- well I see why you feel the webbing is an impoosibility, because you're making way too much of it. No- it couldn't be used to trap an oil spill. It doesn't even work properly under water as has been shown numerous times. They have similar chemicals in use in construction and law enforcement. Chemical foams and such. And the webbing wouldn't be anymore of a help. Why? Because its incredible or amazing uses can only be done in conjunction with Spider-Man's other powers. His speed, his agility, his accuracy. A cop couldn't fire a web net fast enough to stop a gunman, because, he, unlike Spidey has no superspeed and reflexes. He doesn't hve the agility to ensure that he can move out of the line of fire. Firing a webline to reach someone stuck on a ledge or cliff shelf wouldn't be as useful as an mechancial line because the rescuer doesn't have Spider-Man's strength to pull the person to safety. The examples you're coming up with are as fictional as the webshooters themselves.

And regardless, the webfluid still isn't as impressive as Stark's arc reactor, which he created in a cave.


extension plugs, i'm sure they had a couple of those running round to someone's house.
seriously though, they had power sources.
yes, it is a push, but that is what the audience is buying into going to see Iron-Man, a tech genuis, just as they are buying into a guy getting spider-powers when they buy a ticket for spidey.

First, it isn't just a "push". It's impossible. Check with all the people who say Peter can't build a webshooter and explain how an arc reactor can be built in a cave or someons basement. But yes- that's what the audience is buying into- and they'd buy into webshooters as well.

as for what you were saying earler about audience acceptance, yes, they very well will accept the instant coincidence of miracle webbing invention, but that doesn't mean more discerning folk will, it is bad sci-fi writing, that one conceit./quote]

Are you kidding? Those same people accept the science implausibilites in Star Wars, in Star Trek, Iron Man and everything else. If the overall film is good then they'll forgive stretches of the imagination science-wise.

[quote]it's equivalent for iron-man would be... after inventing all his gear, and us accepting that, stark falls into a vat of chemicals, that by great coincidence , give him a mix of metal alloy in his skin that allows him to bond with machines organically and tell them what to do.

Well, that scenario actually kills the need for the armor then. So the problem isn't the implausibilty, but the convolution. If the guy didn't create armor, but simply developed the ability to control machines and used that power to make armor, then it might work.


that's as big a coincidence as a guy getting spider-powers, then suddenly deciding to create a miracle webbing, and finding that he can do exactly that no problem, in the space of a couple of days.


yeah, i never said he was not to be portrayed as a brilliant scientist, and none of those achievements are in the same 'reed richards' like league of creating the formula for miracle webbing at the drop of a hat.

spider-tracers - creating his own circuit board basedd on existing tracing tech but adjusting it to tune into his own special wavelength. nothing revolutionary.

jamming the vultures wings - figuring out how another scientist is managing to do something, and then jamming his signal. a talented scientist can do this, reed not needed.

lizard serum - working from the formula that conners created, and creating a counter formula. again, very, very good work, but not reed richards material, not in the same league as creating miracle webbing off the cuff in one easy swoop.
the other types of webbing you cited are spin offs of his one big breakthrough, variations on the miracle web formula.

Making an adhesive that expands into a line or net. No big deal either.

Yes, audiences are not going to stand up and walk out, and maybe it will not bother most people if they do the 'big coincidence'.
But that does not stop it being bad writing and the catch all explanation, 'he's a genuis' does not cut it, because anyone, who came up with a revolutionary miracle formula like that after a couple of days, would be bursting at the seams with other formula and revolutionary ideas, that is the nature of true genuis of that reed richards level, there would be no keeping it down, even with things that pete has in his life.


That's noy true at all. There are many geniuses who had only really one great breakthrough and spent the rest of their careers doing nothing other than perpetuating and expanding on that one thing.

Not to mention that Peter kinda has the whole saving the world thing as a slight distraction. The fact that he comes up with ways to defeat endless numbers of enemies is where he applies his genius.

So in the end it is a story conceit, a big coincidence we are expected to swallow, bad writing, but it could be tweaked into something better if they linked it to the spider-powers directly. The information in the spider DNA helping along his natural talent as a scientist.
The dna putting him into a trance and passing along inherant information like that would be like giving an artist a set of oil paints and a canvas, if they did not have the talent and practise they would not be able to produce great art with it. So the fact that he is a talented brilliant scientist means the dna information can work through him.

so the brilliant scientist aspect is still there, *and* the big coincidence is taken care of in one fell swoop, with a simple tweak, and it's no longer bad writing.


Okay- Let's talk about coincidence.

Mechs - Peter creates webbing.

Organics- Peter develops new organs and a re-wired curculatory system overnight.

Spinnerets are conveniently placed in his wrist, not his abdomen, where it would naturally be for spiders.

Webbing is "fired" from his wrists, eventhough spiders can't do that.

He can instantly fire a web-net even though spiders have to build that type of net.

So I'd say that there's FAR MORE coincidence on the side of organic webbing.

[Alex The Great]

the bottom line is the audience will buy anything explained to them proprerly.
if there is a montage of peter constructing the web shooters, constructing and experimenting with web cartridges and coming up with the formula for web fluid then the audience will buy it, they would have no reason not to.

all the above could happen in the opening credits

opening credits 2-3 minutes presented like a comic book

gets bitten on the field trip - 20 secs
sequence of him jumping out of the way of a car and climbing wall, lifting care - 20 secs
sequence of peter making webs, webshooters and costume- 20 secs
sequence of peter wrestling for money/crook running past him - 20 secs
peter comes home to see police cars outside his house, learns his father has been murdered - 20 secs
peter learns crook is the same guy he let get past him - 20 secs
peter fighting a b list villian - 20 secs

opening credits end with comic book peter in class which blends to live action
:cmad::cmad::cmad::dry::csad::cmad::dry:

[david icke]

Okay- well I see why you feel the webbing is an impoosibility, because you're making way too much of it. No- it couldn't be used to trap an oil spill. It doesn't even work properly under water as has been shown numerous times. They have similar chemicals in use in construction and law enforcement. Chemical foams and such. And the webbing wouldn't be anymore of a help. Why? Because its incredible or amazing uses can only be done in conjunction with Spider-Man's other powers. His speed, his agility, his accuracy. A cop couldn't fire a web net fast enough to stop a gunman, because, he, unlike Spidey has no superspeed and reflexes. He doesn't hve the agility to ensure that he can move out of the line of fire. Firing a webline to reach someone stuck on a ledge or cliff shelf wouldn't be as useful as an mechancial line because the rescuer doesn't have Spider-Man's strength to pull the person to safety. The examples you're coming up with are as fictional as the webshooters themselves.

And regardless, the webfluid still isn't as impressive as Stark's arc reactor, which he created in a cave.

nope, you are wrong, you are vastly underestimating the invention.
a material that can hold extremely heavy weights on a single strand...can be moulded into shapes at will depending on the users control...can be used for protection, like the web-balls spidey has used...
and yeah, i think you are thinking of the mechanism not working underwater, not that the material is useless underwater, if you came up with a mechanism to fire it under water, damn right they could use it to quickly stretch out and bag up oil spills and throw them onto ships before the webbing dissolved.
and c'mon, please are you trying to tell me law enforcement has something remotely comparable to spider-man's webbing for capturing felons?




First, it isn't just a "push". It's impossible. Check with all the people who say Peter can't build a webshooter and explain how an arc reactor can be built in a cave or someons basement. But yes- that's what the audience is buying into- and they'd buy into webshooters as well.

you keep missing my point, this the last time i'mm going to go over this , it seems *everyone* is focusing on other aspects when they reply to me.

i have no problem with the web shooters/webbing, just the way it is brought in as a huge clumsy coincidence. it just needs a little tweak to remove the clumsy coincidence that accompanies its arrival.

and yes, i already said that we buy into the tech genius just as we buy into the impossible spider-man powers.
here i go again....it's the fact that we are heaped one massive coincidence after we already buy into the spider-powers .

just like the example i gave of the iron-man getting superpowers example you missed the point of...




Are you kidding? Those same people accept the science implausibilites in Star Wars, in Star Trek, Iron Man and everything else. If the overall film is good then they'll forgive stretches of the imagination science-wise.

yeah, there are things comparable to what i am *specifically* talking about, luke skywalker invents his own lightsabre from scratch after finding out the droids are from the rebellion....spock invents the transporter system just in time to beam down to vulcan to save his parents.



Well, that scenario actually kills the need for the armor then. So the problem isn't the implausibilty, but the convolution. If the guy didn't create armor, but simply developed the ability to control machines and used that power to make armor, then it might work.

no, you missed the point, it's the stupidity of the coincidence...he does not develop this organic superpower, he falls into a vat of chemicals, and they just so happen to give him an organic bonding power with machines....not bulletproof skin...just that...do you see what i am talking about now? bad sci-fi coincidence like battlefield earth.




Making an adhesive that expands into a line or net. No big deal either.

see above. you vastly underestimate the invention.




That's noy true at all. There are many geniuses who had only really one great breakthrough and spent the rest of their careers doing nothing other than perpetuating and expanding on that one thing.

Not to mention that Peter kinda has the whole saving the world thing as a slight distraction. The fact that he comes up with ways to defeat endless numbers of enemies is where he applies his genius.

fine, yes, call him a genuis, talented, whatever, just don't call him someone who is on a par with reed richards, who has a huge lab full of inventions.
and it's still too much of a coincidence that he finds this miracle formula right away , that no-one else onn earth has, all these scientists working for years trying to find adhesivetc, that is a facimilie of the very tool of a creature he has just inherited powers from.

It's simple to tweak it so there is no big coincidence, nature finds a way for this new species of man-spider to get his own web, so he is imbued with inherant knowledge that takes advantage of his science skills.




Okay- Let's talk about coincidence.

Mechs - Peter creates webbing.

Organics- Peter develops new organs and a re-wired curculatory system overnight.

Spinnerets are conveniently placed in his wrist, not his abdomen, where it would naturally be for spiders.

Webbing is "fired" from his wrists, eventhough spiders can't do that.

He can instantly fire a web-net even though spiders have to build that type of net.

So I'd say that there's FAR MORE coincidence on the side of organic webbing.

holy moses...that is part and parcel of the story you are buying when you accept there be such a thing as a man-spider created, you already bought that ticket, it's in your pocket, that's the 1st and most important conceit of the piece.


I am not asking for you to agree with me dragon, i am only asking that you understand me when i say it is a bit of bad sci-fi writing, the big coincidence.

i will read any response you may have, and i am sorry if i sound impatient, but i am just a little tired of regurtitating my same points, when it is a very simple point of opinion to have on this particular part of the original story.

[Chris Wallace]

No, I disagree, I don't think it's hypocritical to go with the powers, but then not buy the fact he somehow manages to come up with a miracle formula in a couple of days that is like a spider's web rite large.
One is acceptance of a science fiction turn of events with the powers, while the other concept on top of that is a major coincidence of convinience that is just a lazy, 'they'll believe that, so they'll believe anything' plot point. All it needs is a little tweak to link it to the spider dna mixing with the human that bestows an inherant knowledge of how to mix up a webbing suitable for this new species of spider, nature always finds a way.

and the fact that you have highlighted and asked me not to complain about the tech of the web-shooting wrist band devices themselves makes me think you only understand my opinion on a superficial level. I have no problem with Parker being a talented scientist who can invent such devices for propulsion, it's the fact of the miraclespider-like webs being invented, and right off the bat after he gets the spider-powers that i think is the weak link. That's all, and all it needs is a little tidy up to make it more paltable, and less of a clumsy convienient plot point.
There are sci-fi books like 'BattleField Earth' anbd then there are ones like 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?'(Blade Runner), both are examples of stories that are full of unreal science fiction, but one is ill thought out mediocrity, and the other is a carefully constructed thought provoking piece.
And part of the reason why that is is because the concepts in the good book are not built on such crappy clumsy coincidences such as cavemen of a post apocalyptic future happening to find an untouched air force base full of brand new fighter jets and flight simulator that they can train themselves with to fight off the very spaceships that defeated the earth's armies in the first place.
I am talking about tidying up the writing to make the story go down better, a necesary when it comes to seperating good science fictionn from mediocre, because they are all full of 'unreal' concepts.
David, how long have you been a fan? Because if the answer is any number greater than 8, then I would have to assume that you had no problem buying this "convenient coincidence" prior to 2002, as did most of us. Again, I am pro-organic but that doesn't mean I consider the mechs just absurd. And comic books-the movies moreso-are chock FULL of convenient coincidences that audiences have been able to accept. It was AWFULLY convenient when Bruce Wayne returned from abroad that Lucius Fox just HAPPENED to have so many of the items lying around that Bruce would need for his arsenal. It was awfully convenient that prior to his being wounded & captured, Tony Stark just HAPPENED to have perfected the design for the arc reactor, a device which, once miniaturized, would be able to serve the dual purpose of suspending the shrapnel lodged in his chest AND simultaneously power the suit that he'd just decided to make. Pumpkin bombs, unstable molecules, the way these people just HAPPEN to stumble into the paths of these much-needed mentors who guide & train them-I could go on & on. Sure it's bull****. But that's part of the mythology of superheroes.

[david icke]

David, how long have you been a fan? Because if the answer is any number greater than 8, then I would have to assume that you had no problem buying this "convenient coincidence" prior to 2002, as did most of us. Again, I am pro-organic but that doesn't mean I consider the mechs just absurd. And comic books-the movies moreso-are chock FULL of convenient coincidences that audiences have been able to accept. It was AWFULLY convenient when Bruce Wayne returned from abroad that Lucius Fox just HAPPENED to have so many of the items lying around that Bruce would need for his arsenal. It was awfully convenient that prior to his being wounded & captured, Tony Stark just HAPPENED to have perfected the design for the arc reactor, a device which, once miniaturized, would be able to serve the dual purpose of suspending the shrapnel lodged in his chest AND simultaneously power the suit that he'd just decided to make. Pumpkin bombs, unstable molecules, the way these people just HAPPEN to stumble into the paths of these much-needed mentors who guide & train them-I could go on & on. Sure it's bull****. But that's part of the mythology of superheroes.

Ach, you know, you get into it as a kid and you take it for granted...but, when they make a movie adaptation these crazy littl e things you took for granted as a story convinience can be blown up to serious proportions given the medium, and it could just seem like a bit of a sore thumb in an otherwise perfect story.
ok, if there is no solution to tweaking this to be less of an unlikely pill to swallow, fine, but if there is, and they thought so too for the 90s cartoon, they can always improve that aspect with a little tweaking.
It's the same as having Lucious Fox and Wanye enterprises having workd with military equipment, instead of saying batman also became a big nventor as well as finding all these other skills, that was actually toning down the batman pill we had to swallow.

and i think the webbing invention 's coincidences are bigger than those you cited, because there is more than one involved, thats why i say big coincidence,...no one else on earth working for years with experimenting with adhesives has come up with this miracle adhesive, but he comes up with it in no time at all...it happens just after he gets the powers of a spider...it's the only revolutionary thing he ever comes up wth in his life...taken together that is a big one.

and it can be solved with the 'nature finds a way' tweaking, the man spider species finds his webbing through dna info being passed on that his scientific know how can utilise...almost like the instincts of the spider that bit him knew it was going for just the right subject to perpetuate this new species...super nature- super spider- superhuman- superhero.

i would actually like to see mechanicals, i am not that bothered, but id so i would like that little nudge and tweak to the story...both man's scientific genius, and a spider's artistry(they do make beautiful designs with the webbing) coming together to create this amazing new invention. I mean, why should the human half get all the credit? The spider is in there too. It makes more sense on both that level, and the level of tighter, more interesting, linked logical storytelling. it might seem like a negligible detail to some, but i say no, it's these details that can seperate a mediocre concept from a slick inspired one.
that's the way it works in good art, every detail is important and i maintain that af15 is the perfect short story bar that detail, so let's get the tweak down and make it perfect.

[Ajendo]

Amazing fantasy may have been a throw away, shot in the dark story of spidey's origin but regardless of the fact that it was told in the 60s doesn't make a difference. It's still a fantastical story where reality isn't a strong concept the way you would like it to be now but guess what? It works. It's been working since then and anyone who believes that at some point stan didn't think about organics is being naive. This is a guy who created the xmen for crying out loud.

As for the long chain ploymer webbing Peter created and it being impossible and stupid he hasn't done anything else. I don't believe its ridiculous at all. One more day proves this. Mephisto shows Peter what his life could have been like if his responsibilities and spider-man life either took a back seat or was non existent. It showed Peter's life in one instance being like Tony Stark.

When it comes down to it, Peter's life is a tragedy because he can never live the life he should be living as I mentioned earlier. Peter's educational background and experience can get him a well paid job but does he have one? No because his duties as spider-man interrupt all that. As a teacher look what that did and even as a photographer it's caused problems but him being a photographer works because of the flexibility of the job.

Peter, however is shown to be a genius additionally when disabling the scientific achievements of the likes of doc ock. We see his scientific prowess come into play when it's essential but other than that, as I said and as has been substantiated in the comics, particularly in One more day, it's not a priority.

To make it all plausible in the movies, it needs to be conveyed properly that peter is a genius and that's something Raimi didn't execute very well.

[david icke]

the thing is Ajendo, they started up all that 'pete is just as brilliant as stark and richards' stuff because on it's own, that particular multi-faceted coincidence in AF15 does not work as well as the rest of the story. It is a massive jump.

Exactly how much time are they going to spend on establishing this aspect in the movies to counterbalance the major implausibility? Probably not much, so the best idea I think is to connect it to the spider-bite, as I said above.
I am all for Pete being established as a brilliant scientist, but that does not cover the major implausibilities on it's own, and you're not going to get the indepth ongoing examples you cited from 'One more day' or whatever, to counterbalance the coincidence.

[Chris Wallace]

Ach, you know, you get into it as a kid and you take it for granted...but, when they make a movie adaptation these crazy littl e things you took for granted as a story convinience can be blown up to serious proportions given the medium, and it could just seem like a bit of a sore thumb in an otherwise perfect story.
ok, if there is no solution to tweaking this to be less of an unlikely pill to swallow, fine, but if there is, and they thought so too for the 90s cartoon, they can always improve that aspect with a little tweaking.
It's the same as having Lucious Fox and Wanye enterprises having workd with military equipment, instead of saying batman also became a big nventor as well as finding all these other skills, that was actually toning down the batman pill we had to swallow.

and i think the webbing invention 's coincidences are bigger than those you cited, because there is more than one involved, thats why i say big coincidence,...no one else on earth working for years with experimenting with adhesives has come up with this miracle adhesive, but he comes up with it in no time at all...it happens just after he gets the powers of a spider...it's the only revolutionary thing he ever comes up wth in his life...taken together that is a big one.

and it can be solved with the 'nature finds a way' tweaking, the man spider species finds his webbing through dna info being passed on that his scientific know how can utilise...almost like the instincts of the spider that bit him knew it was going for just the right subject to perpetuate this new species...super nature- super spider- superhuman- superhero.

i would actually like to see mechanicals, i am not that bothered, but id so i would like that little nudge and tweak to the story...both man's scientific genius, and a spider's artistry(they do make beautiful designs with the webbing) coming together to create this amazing new invention. I mean, why should the human half get all the credit? The spider is in there too. It makes more sense on both that level, and the level of tighter, more interesting, linked logical storytelling. it might seem like a negligible detail to some, but i say no, it's these details that can seperate a mediocre concept from a slick inspired one.
that's the way it works in good art, every detail is important and i maintain that af15 is the perfect short story bar that detail, so let's get the tweak down and make it perfect.

Again, I prefer organics. I just don't buy a lot of the reasons being offered for why web-shooters wouldn't work. Now the only advantage I can see with web-shooters is that he could theoretically modify the solution according to need. But that's it. Apart from that natural webbing just makes more sense IMO.

[david icke]

Again, I prefer organics. I just don't buy a lot of the reasons being offered for why web-shooters wouldn't work. Now the only advantage I can see with web-shooters is that he could theoretically modify the solution according to need. But that's it. Apart from that natural webbing just makes more sense IMO.

oh right, i never really thought about that angle being an advantage for the mechs, that is a good reason and more exclusive to it's nature than just mechanical failure, which could be integrated into organics somehow so we get moments like in sm2. but, i think coming up with an angle for the webbing running out with organics could be awkward.
and i do like the idea of him having to fight without it on occasion.

[Ajendo]

the thing is Ajendo, they started up all that 'pete is just as brilliant as stark and richards' stuff because on it's own, that particular multi-faceted coincidence in AF15 does not work as well as the rest of the story. It is a massive jump.

Sorry, forgive me for being a bit slow here, who are 'they'?

I really do see where you're coming from and I'm not trying to even attempt to change your opinion but to merely get you to see it from a different perspective. Peter is an isolated kid, who's a genius but prior to him getting his powers he didn't make any scientific discoveries. However, once getting his powers he creates mechs and webbing. I see the massive leap there but I attribute that to well, Peter is a kid who at this time would rather just be a kid than try to create some scientific breakthrough that would no doubt further isolate him from his peers, making matters worse for himself. Peter was disliked because of his intelligence and for many other reasons, in the end all he wanted was to fit in. Once getting his powers, he was able to behave and create tools that otherwise wouldn't ordinarily be linked to Peter, which is one of the primary reasons why he wears a masked costume in the first place. Spider-Man is Peter's release. The webbing/mechs are a creation out of an unusual anomaly in that peter all of a sudden gained spider powers.

Exactly how much time are they going to spend on establishing this aspect in the movies to counterbalance the major implausibility? Probably not much, so the best idea I think is to connect it to the spider-bite, as I said above.

I don't think much time is needed at all. Peter just needs to be seen involving himself in something very complex. Having a few minor, obscure short chit chats about echoes and acoustics and writing a paper on nano technology is BS and lightweight stuff. Peter needs to involve himself with some complex hardcore stuff like that geeky guy from the show numbers.

[Chris Wallace]

oh right, i never really thought about that angle being an advantage for the mechs, that is a good reason and more exclusive to it's nature than just mechanical failure, which could be integrated into organics somehow so we get moments like in sm2. but, i think coming up with an angle for the webbing running out with organics could be awkward.
and i do like the idea of him having to fight without it on occasion.

I touched on this in an earlier post, but it seems to me that the silk would be protein-based, so he'd have to have consumed a lot of protein in order to generate webbing perpetually. There's your angle for running out.
But I actually prefer him going into situations where he's facing an opponent that the webbing can't hold. That is a more intriguing challenge in my eyes.

[david icke]

Sorry, forgive me for being a bit slow here, who are 'they'?

Writers and Editors who decided to put in refs that Parker was in the same league as Reed and Stark. Who else would I be talking about?

I really do see where you're coming from and I'm not trying to even attempt to change your opinion but to merely get you to see it from a different perspective. Peter is an isolated kid, who's a genius but prior to him getting his powers he didn't make any scientific discoveries. However, once getting his powers he creates mechs and webbing. I see the massive leap there but I attribute that to well, Peter is a kid who at this time would rather just be a kid than try to create some scientific breakthrough that would no doubt further isolate him from his peers, making matters worse for himself. Peter was disliked because of his intelligence and for many other reasons, in the end all he wanted was to fit in. Once getting his powers, he was able to behave and create tools that otherwise wouldn't ordinarily be linked to Peter, which is one of the primary reasons why he wears a masked costume in the first place. Spider-Man is Peter's release.


I see all the perspectives, believe me, it's still too much of a jump, there is more than one big pill you have to swallow with the concept there are 3 in one, as i said earlier.

The webbing/mechs are a creation out of an unusual anomaly in that peter all of a sudden gained spider powers.

I don't understand what youre saying here at all with this sentence. It doesn't make sense.
Are you saying that he was inspired to make the webs from the powers?

i'll say it one more time then I'm outta here.
in fact I can't bring myself to, lol, I've typed the same opinion countless times.

I understand all the perpectives, trust me. I still think it's too much, unless they link it directly to the spidern dna as i said.



I don't think much time is needed at all. Peter just needs to be seen involving himself in something very complex. Having a few minor, obscure short chit chats about echoes and acoustics and writing a paper on nano technology is BS and lightweight stuff. Peter needs to involve himself with some complex hardcore stuff like that geeky guy from the show numbers.

ok, take a look at how many spider-man comics you have read, honestly ask yourself how much time , as in pages, are devoted to his scientific genius. Not much, percentage wise, right? There are far more compelling and important facets to the character to be concerned about.
edit: I like the aspect about the character, sure, but it would not have felt out of place to have had the pete of the raimi movies turn round and come up with a jamming device for the vulture, or work on conner's lizard formula for a counter-active cure. It was established that he was 'brilliant', and knew his stuff, brilliant *despite* missing classes and work.

[david icke]

I touched on this in an earlier post, but it seems to me that the silk would be protein-based, so he'd have to have consumed a lot of protein in order to generate webbing perpetually. There's your angle for running out.

Yeah, I've read folk proposing similar hings on the thread, yourself included doubtless. As I said to one poster, it could get like the Flash tv show with him stuffing his face etc, that's the angle i think is awkward.


But I actually prefer him going into situations where he's facing an opponent that the webbing can't hold. That is a more intriguing challenge in my eyes.

You mean, if he has not eaten enough protein the webbing is weaker?
No, thinking about it all now again, I don't like this idea of the organic webbing being made weaker/running out by way of food consumption, and i recall saying this way back on the thread, it just feels now like giving spider-man a new 'thing' that could actually feel stupid if they played it up as something he had to worry about, ie what he eats, it's too complicated.

edit: Ok, if was just a consequence of Spidey being knackered and run down, making the organic webbing weaker during battles, I would like that, keeping it simple.

[Dragon]

nope, you are wrong, you are vastly underestimating the invention.
a material that can hold extremely heavy weights on a single strand...can be moulded into shapes at will depending on the users control...can be used for protection, like the web-balls spidey has used...

Again, those points are meaningless, absent of Spidey's other powers.

Steel cable is quite thin. But it still needs a mechanical wench to lift whatever object it's carrying. A person holding a webshooter still can't hold the massive weight on their own. And BTW- the fact that the webbing dissolves in an hour is very problematic. If whatever is being lifted can't be lifted within that hour's time, then you'd have to start all over again. Think of the case of the recent mine collapse. A webline that lasts an hour would've done no good there.

and yeah, i think you are thinking of the mechanism not working underwater, not that the material is useless underwater, if you came up with a mechanism to fire it under water, damn right they could use it to quickly stretch out and bag up oil spills and throw them onto ships before the webbing dissolved.

No- I have the comics. Underwater, Spidey's webbing doesn't form a net or line. It becomes silly string. See ASM annual #1. You understand that the fluid specifically solidifies on exposure to AIR, which is lacking underwater.

And an hour ain't gonna do **** in the case of an oil spill, as you can see from the news. The current spill is releasing 200,000 gallons of oil per day. No way anyone could spin a web-net around that much flow in an hour, even if the webbing worked underwater, which it doesn't. And again, the dissolving issue would make for problems in capping the oil well.

and c'mon, please are you trying to tell me law enforcement has something remotely comparable to spider-man's webbing for capturing felons?

No- not for capturing felons. That's my point. They have soft concussive bullets which you could compare to web balls. They have net guns and chemical foams that you could compare to the webbing. But again- this is useless against an armed suspect, since the cops have neither Spidey's speed, firing accuracy or agility to avoid gunfire.

you keep missing my point, this the last time i'mm going to go over this , it seems *everyone* is focusing on other aspects when they reply to me.

i have no problem with the web shooters/webbing, just the way it is brought in as a huge clumsy coincidence. it just needs a little tweak to remove the clumsy coincidence that accompanies its arrival.

and yes, i already said that we buy into the tech genius just as we buy into the impossible spider-man powers.
here i go again....it's the fact that we are heaped one massive coincidence after we already buy into the spider-powers .

just like the example i gave of the iron-man getting superpowers example you missed the point of...

It's not a coincidence. Haven't you heard the term "Necessity is the mother of invention"? Peter realized that a webline would be useful in his exploits as Spider-man and constructed it.

yeah, there are things comparable to what i am *specifically* talking about, luke skywalker invents his own lightsabre from scratch after finding out the droids are from the rebellion....spock invents the transporter system just in time to beam down to vulcan to save his parents.

No, those aren't comparable, since a light sabre and transporter are infinitely more complex inventions than Peter's web fluid and shooters.

see above. you vastly underestimate the invention. fine, yes, call him a genuis, talented, whatever, just don't call him someone who is on a par with reed richards, who has a huge lab full of inventions.
and it's still too much of a coincidence that he finds this miracle formula right away , that no-one else onn earth has, all these scientists working for years trying to find adhesivetc, that is a facimilie of the very tool of a creature he has just inherited powers from.

Mo, you're overrating it. Spidey's webbing is useful, no doubt. And due to his unique abilities, he can make clever applications with it. But it's certainly fallible. The webs tear and burn all the time. In at least the comic-verse, the webbing isn't an impossibility for people to construct, they simply have no use for it as Spider-Man does. Many characters, such as the trapster have similar fluids. Both the Chameleon and Mysterio made their own versions of the webbing. Baron Zemo had adhesive X, which was more potent.


It's simple to tweak it so there is no big coincidence, nature finds a way for this new species of man-spider to get his own web, so he is imbued with inherant knowledge that takes advantage of his science skills.

First, that explanation has always sounded silly to me.

Second, and more important, it doesn't apply. You see- Peter doesn't create a real spider web. Spider webs again, aren't fired as nets. Webs don't dissolve in an hour's time. They aren't conducive to altering to become fire-resistent or coolants, etc.
Peter's formula is a web-LIKE substance.

holy moses...that is part and parcel of the story you are buying when you accept there be such a thing as a man-spider created, you already bought that ticket, it's in your pocket, that's the 1st and most important conceit of the piece.

Okay. So some types of coincidence are aceptable and others aren't, even if the "acceptable" coincidence is even more far-fetched?

[david icke]

Ok, I am not going to get into the webbing debate in regards to how revolutionary an invention it is so much, we will have to agree to disageee there. But, in regards to the underwater thing, I recall spidey using web created aids for being underwater, i have also seen web balls that float on water(MTU Spider-man and Man-Thing), so if they can float on water, it is water proof, so they can be used underwater. I have the comics too, and it appears they have been inconsistent with this.
I have not read my UK summer special or Marvel Tales of Annual no1 for a long time, tbh, I always thought it was one of the weaker Lee/Ditkos so don't feel the desire to revisit it so much.


First, that explanation has always sounded silly to me.

I don't see why if you have an appreciation for science fiction concepts. When the fact is, he becomes essentially a new species of animal, the man-spider, neither one or the other. DNA is genetic information, nature always finds a way, and it would find a way, one way or another, for this new type of spider-man to have webbing. Whether passing on info that helps him gain the insight into creating webs from chemicals around him, or making sure he has webbing organically growing from his body.

Second, and more important, it doesn't apply. You see- Peter doesn't create a real spider web. Spider webs again, aren't fired as nets. Webs don't dissolve in an hour's time. They aren't conducive to altering to become fire-resistent or coolants, etc.
Peter's formula is a web-LIKE substance.

Yeah, we disagree on how revolutionary his invention is, so there's not much point is debating the major coincidence that he just so happens to find this amazing miracle formula which is web-like in use and look.



Okay. So some types of coincidence are aceptable and others aren't, even if the "acceptable" coincidence is even more far-fetched?

Is it though? It's a sci-fi conceit, the organic webbing, that is part and parcel of the whole spider-powers transformation we are buying into, but one that can be explained in scientific terms. For the sake of the story, we don't have the web shooting out of his backside, but it is also explainable.
What you are forgetting is that he is part man part spider, neither one or the other, something new that is more than the sum of it's parts. So, the human DNA tells the spider DNA, no, we use the hands for 'handling' tools and weapons, not the ass, you must position the excretion in the hand/wrist area for maximum effectiveness.
That is what DNA does, imparts information and solves evolutionary problems.

[Chris Wallace]

Yeah, I've read folk proposing similar hings on the thread, yourself included doubtless. As I said to one poster, it could get like the Flash tv show with him stuffing his face etc, that's the angle i think is awkward.



You mean, if he has not eaten enough protein the webbing is weaker?
No, thinking about it all now again, I don't like this idea of the organic webbing being made weaker/running out by way of food consumption, and i recall saying this way back on the thread, it just feels now like giving spider-man a new 'thing' that could actually feel stupid if they played it up as something he had to worry about, ie what he eats, it's too complicated.

edit: Ok, if was just a consequence of Spidey being knackered and run down, making the organic webbing weaker during battles, I would like that, keeping it simple.

Not necessarily weaker webbing, but rather that he's facing somebody that it just can't hold period, even at its best tensile strength.
And I wouldn't want him pigging out like the Flash, either. To me that would be putting too much emphasis on the fact that it's organic and in all likelihood alienating the audience, much like Cameron's script would have.
You know one reason why the organic webbing worked in Raimi's movies? They didn't dwell on it. They showed us where it came from & they pretty much left it at that. They didn't have somebody collecting samples, sending it to a lab, show us multiple scenes of Peter staring at or studying his newly-grown spinnerets, they just let it go.

[david icke]

Not necessarily weaker webbing, but rather that he's facing somebody that it just can't hold period, even at its best tensile strength.
And I wouldn't want him pigging out like the Flash, either. To me that would be putting too much emphasis on the fact that it's organic and in all likelihood alienating the audience, much like Cameron's script would have.
You know one reason why the organic webbing worked in Raimi's movies? They didn't dwell on it. They showed us where it came from & they pretty much left it at that. They didn't have somebody collecting samples, sending it to a lab, show us multiple scenes of Peter staring at or studying his newly-grown spinnerets, they just let it go.

Oh yeah, I know, I agree. I just think it's a shame it doesn't lend itself so well to running out/malfunctioning, as I love that moment in SM2 where Ock gets the drop on him because he was counting on the webbing.

[Young Superman]

Peter better have his Mechanical Web-shooters.

[blackbyrd]

Spidey started with mechanical webshooters. Keep it close to the source.

The other thing that was a huge void in the Raimi films was they never really explored or depicted Webhead's scientific skill or acumen. Having him create his own webshooters would show a it of that nuance.

Lastly, one of the great things about the mech shooters was that sometimes he would run out of fluid in the middle of a fight and would have to beat his opponent without webbing. Anyone who has been reading comics since the early to mid70's like I have would have seen this countless times and can appreciate why Webs is so badass...

[Young Superman]

Agreed

[Dragon]

Ok, I am not going to get into the webbing debate in regards to how revolutionary an invention it is so much, we will have to agree to disageee there. But, in regards to the underwater thing, I recall spidey using web created aids for being underwater, i have also seen web balls that float on water(MTU Spider-man and Man-Thing), so if they can float on water, it is water proof, so they can be used underwater. I have the comics too, and it appears they have been inconsistent with this.

Just remembered Hydro Man. Spidey can't net him. Case closed.

But as far as significance.

The organic's big argument is this is something that 3M and other chemical developers can't do. So no one would believe a kid could do it in his home lab. Now, I have yet to hear of anyone trying to develop a webshooter. Mass production of webbing via goat's milk, yes. But not a fluid that forms a web-like substance.

There are however a helluva lot of companies large and small looking for clean power sources like the arc reactor. So Tony developing it in a cave AND Vanko developing it in his house whereas none of these developers throwing billions of dollars and state-of-the-art tech behind developing such things is alot more far-fetched. Or are we being told that Tony Stark is simply smarter than every human that ever existed? And so is.. Ivan Vanko?

My point here is that if audiences didn't redflag something as blatantly far-fetched as the arc reactor- since this is something that affects everyone's lives (The reactor could power homes. cars- there'd be no need for oil drilling, thus ensuring that the BP disaster would never happen again)- they wouldn't give a damn about a webshooter. Obama is offering money to those who can develop new sources of energy. I didn't here him offering money for anyone developing a webshooter.

I have not read my UK summer special or Marvel Tales of Annual no1 for a long time, tbh, I always thought it was one of the weaker Lee/Ditkos so don't feel the desire to revisit it so much.

Well, I tthought it was great. But regardless, Lee & Ditko created Spidey and the webahooters. They make the rules.

I don't see why if you have an appreciation for science fiction concepts. When the fact is, he becomes essentially a new species of animal, the man-spider, neither one or the other. DNA is genetic information, nature always finds a way, and it would find a way, one way or another, for this new type of spider-man to have webbing. Whether passing on info that helps him gain the insight into creating webs from chemicals around him, or making sure he has webbing organically growing from his body.


Well, for one thing, as I'd mentioned before- none of Peter's abilities are actual spider powers. They're enhanced human abilites that have a spider-like quality.

Spider's don't have super strength. They have eight arms that are structured like hydraulic lifts. We'd be stronger with eight arms too.

Spider's aren't super fast. They- again have eight limbs. We could run faster with additional legs as well.

Spiders are not particulrly agile.

They certainly don't have a danger sense.

Second, the formula for the web fluid being injected into Peter along with the powers makes no sense. First- spider's don't know the formula for their webbing anymore thab we inherently know the formula for our blood.

And again- since Peter's webbing doesn't work the way spider's webbing does- are we to believe the spider re-invented the formula? Is that supposed to be good writing?

That idea is over-thinking something that's pretty simple.


Yeah, we disagree on how revolutionary his invention is, so there's not much point is debating the major coincidence that he just so happens to find this amazing miracle formula which is web-like in use and look.

The formula is not a miracle. Peter is a genius, but not a singular genius.

Again- other geniuses have made their own webbing. Chameleon, Mysterio, the Trapster. Even Miles Warren outfitted his Spider-Man clone with webshooters.

[The Slang]

I don't even know why I'm saying this... but it's painfully obvious to me that mechanicals are the better option.
Only machines can fire a substance long distance, while regulating the shape/size. Are you telling me he controls the difference between a strand and a net with only muscle contractions? And the web shooter is just an adhesive launcher/moulder. It's one device that performs the functions of both a grappling hook and non-lethal restraint foam. Both of which are used in the real world.

If someone truly invented a webshooter it would'nt bring peace on earth and solve all our friggin problems. Without super-human strength, the device would be completely useless for webswinging or supporting heavy objects.

And for those that still find it so unbelievable for a scientist to INVENT something that doesn't yet exist... I have a simple solution. A vital ingredient required to produce the web fluid comes from peter's body. A brand new mutant silk protein. No one else would have access to it... and the webs would still be connected to the spider-bite.

[ModestMr.Green]

I don't even know why I'm saying this... but it's painfully obvious to me that mechanicals are the better option.
Only machines can fire a substance long distance, while regulating the shape/size. Are you telling me he controls the difference between a strand and a net with only muscle contractions? And the web shooter is just an adhesive launcher/moulder. It's one device that performs the functions of both a grappling hook and non-lethal restraint foam. Both of which are used in the real world.

If someone truly invented a webshooter it would'nt bring peace on earth and solve all our friggin problems. Without super-human strength, the device would be completely useless for webswinging or supporting heavy objects.

And for those that still find it so unbelievable for a scientist to INVENT something that doesn't yet exist... I have a simple solution. A vital ingredient required to produce the web fluid comes from peter's body. A brand new mutant silk protein. No one else would have access to it... and the webs would still be connected to the spider-bite.

This post basically sold me on mechanical web-shooters.

[Rodrigo90]

I say he produces web from his wrists,and stores it into cartridges. The web is limited though,and takes up to a week for Peter to produce again,but its enough to store in 10 cartridges or so.

[Naite22]

I voted mechanical webshooters... They have a golden opportunity to make it really stick out compared to the old movies that way. Besides, that would be even more true to the comics than that of the old films.

My main reason as to supporting this new spidey franchise, is the fact that they can do the symbiote storyline justice! Dear god, did they **** that up royaly!... I honnestly can't wait to see how this new franchise will look and feel.

[Droogoonie789]

I don't even know why I'm saying this... but it's painfully obvious to me that mechanicals are the better option.
Only machines can fire a substance long distance, while regulating the shape/size. Are you telling me he controls the difference between a strand and a net with only muscle contractions? And the web shooter is just an adhesive launcher/moulder. It's one device that performs the functions of both a grappling hook and non-lethal restraint foam. Both of which are used in the real world.

If someone truly invented a webshooter it would'nt bring peace on earth and solve all our friggin problems. Without super-human strength, the device would be completely useless for webswinging or supporting heavy objects.

And for those that still find it so unbelievable for a scientist to INVENT something that doesn't yet exist... I have a simple solution. A vital ingredient required to produce the web fluid comes from peter's body. A brand new mutant silk protein. No one else would have access to it... and the webs would still be connected to the spider-bite.

I totally agree about the webshooters, but not exactly sure how the silk protein would be worked in. How would Peter discover that??

[ModestMr.Green]

I totally agree about the webshooters, but not exactly sure how the silk protein would be worked in. How would Peter discover that??

Wasn't there a scene in the first volume of Ultimate Spider-Man where Peter is in his basement laboratory, checking out a slide of his blood to determine what's wrong with him? They could play it off like that.

[Droogoonie789]

Wasn't there a scene in the first volume of Ultimate Spider-Man where Peter is in his basement laboratory, checking out a slide of his blood to determine what's wrong with him? They could play it off like that.

I dunno if that'd work. How does he go from blood slides to determine what affected him to synthesizing webs? Maybe if one of the chemicals in his blood was similar to chemicals in webs. But still, Peter'd be cutting himself constantly for more web juice. I guess that work for their whole "emotional teenager" angle :hehe:

[Rodrigo90]

I dunno if that'd work. How does he go from blood slides to determine what affected him to synthesizing webs? Maybe if one of the chemicals in his blood was similar to chemicals in webs. But still, Peter'd be cutting himself constantly for more web juice. I guess that work for their whole "emotional teenager" angle :hehe:

:lmao:

[Young Superman]

IMO Spidey not having his web-shooters is like a Green Lantern not having a power ring.

[Tony Stark]

The more I was thinking about this, if they're going to reboot the franchise, you may as well give him the webshooters, just to give them a different angle to go with.

I personally didn't mind the organics in the other movies, but just to be different, I think they ought to give it a try.

[Rodrigo90]

The spider that bit Peter was radioactivity charged,the bite prompted him to gain the "proportionate strength of a spider" the ability to stick to walls,and a spider sense...yet why no webs? It must have changed his genetics for him to grow the hairs on his fingers for him to climb walls. If it had given him the ability to produce web,it would realistically come out from his ass. I always believed what he fires shouldn't be 100% identical to a spiders real web (Which it is).

In the movie,the concept of that web substance should already be created,and Peter replicates his own,but improving it in the process.

[©KAW]

Wow, this topic just never goes away, had they just used the mechanical web-shooters in the first place, like the damn comics--this wouldn't even be an issue.

[Excelsior.]

Its like I have transported back in time to 1999. :wow:

[SpeterMan3]

Wow, this topic just never goes away, had they just used the mechanical web-shooters in the first place, like the damn comics--this wouldn't even be an issue.
I'm pretty sure it would just be reversed.

[lixdexia]

I don't get this argument at all. The whole interest behind a character like Spider-Man is that he's a normal person granted an unbelievable ability. There's a difference between the central thing that happens to him being unbelievable (getting super powers) and what he already is naturally being unbelievable (being a high school super genius smart enough to create a glue that even the smartest scientists in the world couldn't create).

Peter is a smart kid, but him inventing webshooters and doing it as fast as he does stretches believability. At least USM explained that his father started the formula and he finished it for him.
who's to say his father won't have invented the formula in the movie should they be used? given that it's rumored to be based off of ultimate spider-man it seems a reasonable conclusion that they would go that route.
i also don't get the hate for the transfer of knowledge of the formula through the spider-bite idea. i see it as no more fantastical as the bite giving him super-strength, agility, wall clinging abilities or precognition.

and if you want to go with things that are unbelievable for a schlub like peter parker i feel his love life is an infinitely more deserving target than his scientific prowess.

[Rodrigo90]

Heres the scientific route Im going for.

Once the radioactive spider bit Peter, a huge amount of radiation and small amount of poison from the bite instantaneously infected his blood. He changed genetically to a certain extent,he acquires the ability to climb walls,but his body doesn't have the requirements to produce webs. His powers come from a high concentration of white blood cells,and the poison in his system,both combined,genetically enhancing him, and kept in stable condition.
His Amygadala greatly increases in activity,giving him the Spider-Sense.
This is explained in the movie by Dr Connors.
The webs as I said should be in use by whoever,and Peter replicates his own.

[Young Superman]

I havw not read Spidey in a while, does he currently have the Organic Web-shooters or the Mechanical Web-shooters in the comics?

[Naite22]

I think (hope) that people will actually end up eating this new spidey movie up. It will no doubt look and feel different then the old movies. And lets face it. It's only just now that they can truely make spidey look real while swinging in action. Ok, ok, I think the effects in spidey 2 and 3 were absolutely amazing! They were definitely on the top front of CG tech. But Spidey will absolutely feel way more badass this time around, that I actually have no doubt of. And than in 3D! W-O-W!

This is one movie where I wish I could fast forward in time, just to see the first teaser :-)

[Atrax robustus]

Im easy.

I didnt have a problem with eh Organics in the debate for the original Raimi movie and I wouldnt have a problem with them now.

That being said I wouldnt have had an issue if they'd went the 'mechanical' route either.

After the huge debate, arguments and discussions on this subject years ago it was funny too see the moment pass by in the movie with no S.I.G. mentions at all ;)

[Rodrigo90]

I havw not read Spidey in a while, does he currently have the Organic Web-shooters or the Mechanical Web-shooters in the comics?

Its organic now. He died and came back into a new improved body,something like that,lol.

[Young Superman]

Thanks Rodrigo90

[spidermanJLA!~]

Its organic now. He died and came back into a new improved body,something like that,lol.
However, Spider-man made a deal with mephisto ending his new powers, ending his marriage with Mj, and ending his identity being public(civil war).
So... its mechanical.

[Rodrigo90]

However, Spider-man made a deal with mephisto ending his new powers, ending his marriage with Mj, and ending his identity being public(civil war).
So... its mechanical.

Thats correct. :up:

[spidermanJLA!~]

Thanks :awesome:

[Young Superman]

However, Spider-man made a deal with mephisto ending his new powers, ending his marriage with Mj, and ending his identity being public(civil war).
So... its mechanical.

Thanks spidermanJLA!~. That's awesome he got his Web-Shooters bac.:awesome:

P.S Are the post One More Day books any good?

[Chris Wallace]

IMO Spidey not having his web-shooters is like a Green Lantern not having a power ring.

That's a bad comparison. GL needs his power ring in order to be GL. It can be taken away from him & he's powerless. Spidey can have webshooters, have his own naturally-grown spinnerets, or project webbing from the symbiote & it doesn't take away the other powers and traits that make him Spider-Man.

[Spiderine]

Organics

[Rodrigo90]

I really want to see a more creative and scientific Peter. In almost every medium he has advanced skills that rival even Mr Fantastic.

But do I think he is smart enough to create Web Shooters and web? Well he did in the comics and cant see why not now. I feel it would benefit if Peter knew his father was a scientific inventor (Ultimate) and wants to follow in his footsteps.

The concept could come from Peter analysing his blood and discovers several ingredients of what it takes to create an artificial,but almost identical real Spider web. Researching, experimenting and synthesising with several required chemicals that artificially match the protein of Spider's silk. He could use his dad's old science lab devices,with all the research and results in the many fields of Richard's scientific expertise.

So the organic web doesn't come from him,but the knowledge of how to create artificial web from studying his DNA.

[Rodrigo90]

I believe this should be taken into account as well.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6749317.stm

[Ajendo]

Just give him his damn web shooters! Its not as if this is a debate about if we should have spidey wearing a cape. Spidey created, owns and wears web shooters, so it makes sense that he should have them in the movies, now moreso than ever since these new movies are trying to differentiate itself from Raimi's attempts.

[Venom'sDad]

Just saying... there is a chance that the casual moviegoer may become confuse after seeing Spidey with organics for three films; to suddenly go to and inventing his own web-shooters.

Just saying...

[lixdexia]

Just saying... there is a chance that the casual moviegoer may become confuse after seeing Spidey with organics for three films; to suddenly go to and inventing his own web-shooters.

Just saying...
that's reaching. i don't think the casual movie goer was confused after rhodey was replaced, or when the incredible hulk was completely different than the previous hulk film, or when M became a woman, or when luke wasn't in episode 1, or when the joker didn't kill batman's parents, etc.

[Rodrigo90]

Just saying... there is a chance that the casual moviegoer may become confuse after seeing Spidey with organics for three films; to suddenly go to and inventing his own web-shooters.

Just saying...

If people were that dumb, wouldn't the casual moviegoer also become confused at this?...

"Theyre not the same actor's as before. Why is everything different?...duh...I dont get it".

This is a reboot. Almost everything will be different. If an idiot cant fathom and understand the changes,then thats their dumb fault.

[Venom'sDad]

There's a difference... the examples you are using or either casting changes or different chapters in a story. Not the perceive essence of the character, that has been established... may I remind you over several years and three films. It only matters to those that beforehand, had some knowledge of the character itself... and not sure it matters to a good percentage of that core group.

Anyway, I threw it out there... I'm just saying.

[Young Superman]

My only fear with the Mechanical Web-shooters is that they are gonna look too bulky under the gloves.

[Venom'sDad]

:confused: Rod90, why is it necessary to be insulting to a casual moviegoer who may not possess as much knowledge of the character as you do?

You're right... you don't get it.

[lixdexia]

There's a difference... the examples you are using or either casting changes or different chapters in a story. Not the perceive essence of the character, that has been established... may I remind you over several years and three films. It only matters to those that beforehand, had some knowledge of the character itself... and not sure it matters to a good percentage of that core group.

Anyway, I threw it out there... I'm just saying.but this is a reboot, not spiderman 4. no different than batman (which had 4 previous films) or the hulk. no it's not that big a deal either way but that is a pathetic argument against web shooters.

My only fear with the Mechanical Web-shooters is that they are gonna look too bulky under the gloves.
i'm sure they'd design it so that it wouldn't stand out that much.

though personally i'm hoping they go the ben reily route and put them over the sleves

[Venom'sDad]

I'm not arguing for or against. It's just a thought to the GA.

[lixdexia]

I'm not arguing for or against. It's just a thought to the GA.
but one of little merit. besides, most likely either way they go it'll be mention 2-3 times and moved on from because it's not that big a part of the character. THAT he shoots webs is important, not so much how.

[Rodrigo90]

In all fairness. I dont think it would matter that much to the moviegoer. To them,without having much knowledge of the comics,its just a different explanation of how he has webs.

And to all the average moviegoers out there who may be reading this,Im sorry for insulting your intelligence. :)

[Ajendo]

Just saying... there is a chance that the casual moviegoer may become confuse after seeing Spidey with organics for three films; to suddenly go to and inventing his own web-shooters.

Just saying...

Why would they be confused. Everyone knows spidey has web shooters, the web-shooter toy is a hot sell with the kiddies as it is not to mention many people have seen the mechs in the comics or in cartoon shows. This is a new movie, new cast and new vision.

[Spider-Who?]

My only fear with the Mechanical Web-shooters is that they are gonna look too bulky under the gloves.

you don't see them in 99% of the comics do you?

if they go with mechs, i think its safe to say the actor/stunt guys will be wearing them underneath the costume ONLY when the mechs them selves need to be shown (Ie: he pulls of his glove to reload them).

[Hypestyle]

I can see how a filmmaker would be content to stick with organic webcasting since there's little exposition that has to be done (okay, how does a 16 year old create this, he has no money, was he already working on this before he got his powers, or did he just get a brainstorm right afterwards, yada yada).. still, I would not be offended at seeing him have mech-webcasters.. we'll see..

[TruerToTheCore]

Mechanical web shooters.

Organic is just creepy.

Peter Parker is a genius. (What everyone would know would they bother to read the comics).

So no problem here.

Everything else is hating the source material.

[The Slang]

I've got it! I just thought of the perfect solution!

One word: Insulin.

Insulin is most commonly used to treat diabetes. When first used it had to be harvested from the pancreas of livestock. BUT- using recombinant DNA, scientists were able to create a form of bacteria (something like ecolli I believe) with traces of insulin. Now we are able to cultivate large amounts of insulin in laboratorys without draining the bodies of animals.

Spider-man should produce his web using the same principle. One of Parker's glandular secretions (I'd say sweat) should contain a mutant silk protein that shares certain attributes with spider-web. Parker discovers this by accident, then decides to cultivate the substance in mass using bacteria. He combines this new substance with a group of solvents and adhesives he had experimented with PRIOR to the spider-bite. Think of it, Parker could GROW webbing with a chemistry set in his closet while he's out going about his business. The webbing would originally be from his body, but he wouldn't shoot it from his arms and he wouldn't have to 'harvest' himself on a regular basis. He just has it multiplying in a bunch of testtubes/peatree dishes.

It's perfect!

[Rodrigo90]

It makes more sense for Peter to analyse himself,and researching everything about Spider's. Discovering he has the chemicals to produce web,but the gland was rejected by his body. Using the research of scientists to produce silk strong as steel (in real life which is a plus), Peter knows the the ingredients to create an artificial web from analysing his blood,that scientists dont.

Peter should have means of access to all the scientific gear from his father, Richard. It would further things if Dr Connors was a close friend and fellow biologist with Richard and a friend to Ben. Making him a father figure to Peter. I dont think it would hurt if Peter shared his identity with Connors,but only if they were that close. It would help explain things through their dialogue.

[Young Superman]

I want mechanical web shooters. One reason is because I wanna see Peter buid them on the big screen, and they are just freaking cool.

[Chris Wallace]

That's two reasons.

[WhiteRat]

I'm all for webshooters. Have been from the start. :up:

It always puzzles me how some want to **** all over the idea as impractical when you've got a teenager with superpowers proportionate to a spider as a lead character. Logic is kinda already out the window. The mechanical devices are no more insulting to put on screen than Tony Stark streaking through the skies in a mobile weapons platform with an AI befitting the 23rd century or Bruce Wayne hauling ass around Gotham City in a flying tank that no one seems to be able to track down.

Webshooters can and should be utilized to reflect Peter's genius level intellect, as well as his innovation in taking to his new responsibility. His constantly running out of fluid at inopportune times isn't something that should be a concern; not as some crutch of unavoidable fact. It can be written around as easily as not bothering to explain why Parker doesn't need to consume huge quantities of food to replace the expenditures of webbing or highlighting why the organics come out of his wrists as opposed to his abdomen.

It's not a dealbreaker, but it is something I'd like to see. It can work, if handled with respect and purpose ...like pretty much any other inclusion in this fantastical world of escapist cinema.

I totally agree with Mister J.I have never liked the organics,never will.The mechanical shooters are essentil to his character.With organics,there is nothing special about Spider-Man.any idiot like Flash Thompson could have been bit by that spider and become Spider-Man.Nothing unique about them.However with the mechanical shooters thats different.We get to see his scientific genius demonstrated.Not just anybody could have mixed those chemicals together like Parker did and create the fluid to complete his powers.Takes a special unique smart person to do that.

Plus how many times did he defeat his major foes with his chemical fluid in the comics? you lose all that with organics. Thats a great point as well.that was such a cop out excuse the apologists always used,that its a stretch to believe that a kid could create a fluid when the whole thing about spider-man is unbelieveble and there are things in these movies that are far more unbelieveable than that as well. If Ironman can do all those things in the movie and its accepted by audience members,then no reason parker cant have the mechanical shooters as well.give me a break.The real reason they did not include them was simply because Raimi was too lazy.

[WhiteRat]

I don't know why the mechanical ones were ever considered implausible.

1) We're talking about a certifiable scientific genius with no social life. Definitely not out of the realm of possibility that he would make them.
2) This is a comic. If I can make a leap of faith that a spider gave a kid superpowers, then I can believe he could invent his own web shooters.

yeah thats what Mister J said so well earlier in his post.I mean come on give me a break.If Tony Stark can fly around in that metal suit and build something like that and if he can get bit by a spider and cling to walls,have super human strength and a spider sense and do all these other bizarre things he does from a spider bite,then theres no reason in hell a certifiable scientific genius with no social life cant invent some webshooters and have the scientific know how to create the fluid.This is a comicbook film.:whatever:

You cant tell me those things Tony Stark did and all those other things that happened in the films are believable but that the mechanical shooters are not,the people that do are just making themselves look stupid and shooting themselves in the foot.The whole thing of Spider-Man is unbelieveble.Raimi was just too lazy to take the extra few minutes of screentime it would take to explain them a way so he came up with that lame ass excuse of how it would not be believeable for a kid to create a fluid and some people around here to their ignorance bought his explanation hook,line,and sinker.

[Chris Wallace]

1-you're talking about one guy who is a multi-gazillionaire, based on the fact that he designs and builds weapons FOR A LIVING, with literally decades of research & experience behind him, and another who is a teenage kid with virtually no money or resources, and never had the motivation or insight to design such a device until he gained powers that it would just happen to compliment. I'm not arguing the plausibility of the webshooter, but please, everybody, stop using Iron Man as a reference.
2-arguing the plausibility of Spider-Man's natural abilities in this only supports the use of organic webbing, as it, too is an extension of his natural spider-like abilities.
3-must every damn discussion turn into a "Let's bash Raimi" thread? Must you question the fanship of everyone who likes the organic webbing? Raimi explained his motives nearly a decade ago & it had nothing to do with laziness, ignorance or realism.

[Mr. Fixit]

I'm pretty indifferent on this one. The organic webshooters make sense as others have mentioned they are an extension of Peter's powers.

The mechanical web shooters however have a history in the comics and might be interesting to see on the big screen for the first time.

Either way is cool.

[WhiteRat]

So Parker should have poisonous saliva and the ability to throw his hair at people to cause them irritation? You did say ALL its powers.

I'm shocked and appalled at the number of people who support organic webshooters... Stan Lee would vomit in horror. I thought mechanical would be the favourite by a land slide, instead I find that its barely the majority. Spider-man is sci-fi. Parker is a genius. In the marvel universe there were plenty of technologies that were less advanced or even non-existant in the real world (hence sci-fi). I'm sure SHIELD already had some advanced adhesive weapons. Parker just revolutionized the technology. Is it so hard to believe that a genius can invent something that doesn't yet exist? Tesla anyone? oh I'm sorry... Edison?

You actually in some way find it more believable for him to have webs explode from his completely human looking forearms? That's just the writers way of simplifying the story (their job) for the audience (young children).

You and me both.Im shocked and appalled as well of the number of people who support organic webbing.I also thought it would be an overwhelming support for mechanical. You are so right.Stan Lee would vomit in horror over the number of people voting for it. He even said in an interview if it were up to him and he was making the movie,he would have used the mechanical shooters.oh well lets just cross our fingers that they get it right this time.The bright spot to this I believe is they will this time.I mean why even bother rebooting it if your going to use organics? Might as well continue on with the story if thats the case.Doesnt make sense otherwise.well till 2012 comes around,adios.we'll just have to play the waiting game.

[©KAW]

Count me in as shocked and appalled...but not surprised. I find most people here (and on the official movie site) to be more of a Sam Raimi fan than a Spider-Man fan. Oh, and it's going to get leaked way before 2012 with whether they're using organics or mechanical web-shooters. All three of the Spider-Man movie scripts were leaked, it'll be no different with this one.

[david icke]

Yeah, KAw , you better change that to 'James Cameron fans', as it was he who came up with the idea of organic webs.
and as for 'shocked and appauled', ott much? The Spider-man story in AF15 is almost flawless, the only flaw lies in the oh so convenient instant invention of miracle webbing. People are not talking about changing the character of Spider-man, so get over yourself.

i was talking to a friend the other day, superhero movies came up, he is not a cb/sh buff whatsoever, just has a general bozo audience knowledge of the books and history...he said he didn't like Spider-man, I asked him why not, and the first thing he said was 'if he is supposed to be such a skint student how the hell does he make all those web inventions and all that?'

[©KAW]

Yeah, but it was the uncreative Raimi who actually used the idea, when he should have been looking at the damn comic books (and its history) as a blueprint, not what James Cameron wrote in a mess of a Spider-Man scriptment.

You people and your fake friends asking you the very questions to help you try and make your case, I'd laugh, but it's too pathetic. :dry:

Tell your fake friend that he's a genius. If most people accepted Tony Stark, not being a surgeon, and making and placing a heart machine (and a suit to boot) inside his chest in a freakin' dirty cave, he can accept a gifted inventor and chemistry genius to make gadgets and web-shooters. You see, that's what these fictional character do, keep it close to the comics and most people won't bother with trying to piece together the impossible that Spider-Man himself already is.

[david icke]

Yeah, but it was the uncreative Raimi who actually used the idea, when he should have been looking at the damn comic books (and its history) as a blueprint, not what James Cameron wrote in a mess of a Spider-Man scriptment.

I thought we were talking about the opposing concepts being used for the upcoming movie, yeah? You remember that bud? Talking about the concepts, not the Raimi movie per se.


You people and your fake friends asking you the very questions to help you try and make your case, I'd laugh, but it's too pathetic. :dry:

Tell your fake friend that he's a genius. If most people accepted Tony Stark, not being a surgeon, and making and placing a heart machine (and a suit to boot) inside his chest in a freakin' dirty cave, he can accept a gifted inventor and chemistry genius to make gadgets and web-shooters. You see, that's what these fictional character do, keep it close to the comics and most people won't bother with trying to piece together the impossible that Spider-Man himself already is.

My fake friend? Dude, you are a real class act, every time I give you the benefit of the doubt you display anti-social tendancies that are on a par with a borderline sociopath.

I told the story to illustrate that when I confronted him on his dislike of Spider-man he immediately latched onto the weakness in the story of his conception, he struggled to give me any other solid reason why he did not like the character, hey, sometimes people just don't go for a certain fictional character, we're not all robots, well, there are some exceptions of course right KAW?

[Dragon]

stop using Iron Man as a reference.


But Chris, you know the reason why we're using Iron Man as a reference- because the circumstances underwhich he builds the armor initially are comparable to Peter's.

He has no money with him and it wouldn't matter if he did. He doesn't have the benefit of his resources, technology and able team of techniians. He builds the armor on the fly- while he's dying from his injuries, so he doesn't even have as much time as Peter does. Unbelievably, his captors allow him to work withtout inspecting his progress, not to mention they make the ridiculous request for him to build the Jericho missile - ONE MISSILE- which they obviously can't test to see if it would even work. So the whole situation is absurd. And there's nothing to indicate that he'd been in the process of building the armor. In the film, the design he uses is clearly not based on tech that would've been available to him at his plant. He built it based on having nothing but the available equipment. Moreover the arc reactor is something that no one had been able to make work under the best conditions (ala the overly mentioned 3M reference). Yet he builds it under the worst possible conditions.

Again, if the audience let that slip by, they'd never even give a second thought about Peter's webshooters.

Only James Cameron, decides that there are holes in the webshooter plot, even though it seemed to slip his mind in T2 that while nothing "dead" goes through the time-displacement portal, the T-1000 who can only simulate human flesh but is in fact metal, can go through with no problem. And no one cared about that either.

[david icke]

I have said this before to you in debate on this Dragon, but for me, the Iron-Man argument does not apply here as with IM we are buying into the fact that *the whole story is about a tech genius who is far above the normal, his tech genius is super-normal, that's what makes him a superhero*

Whereas with Spider-man, *we are buying into the fact that he gets Spider powers, that is what makes him a superhero, Peter Parker would never have become a superhero if he had not been bitten by the spider*.

I know we are just going to disagree here as you don't consider the webbing on a par with a stark invention, but I do.

The webbing is a story convinence that forces a big coincidence into the equation.
and as I have come to realise, now that my friend brought it up, the fact that we will see Pete mixing up all these chemicals on a regular basis in a series of movies may in fact undermine the 'skint student' aspect of the character , which is a very attractive aspect of this superhero.

[lixdexia]

is near as i can tell a "skint student" is one who lives frugally due to a lack of disposable income, and this fits parker to a tee, but is no reason to exclude mechanical web-shooters. the devices themselves have never been shown as very high tech devices and could be built for somewhere in the range of $100. the expensive part would be the chemicals, but as another poster here suggested those could be harvested and reproduced from his sweat or some other means.

[Rodrigo90]

In Ultimate, Peter's dad was a scientist. Therefore, Peter should have Richards own science gadgetry and research files.

Peter takes photos and sells them to the Bugle. Why? To give some money to Aunt May,and the rest to pay for chemicals for his web. Why is this forgotten?

[david icke]

is near as i can tell a "skint student" is one who lives frugally due to a lack of disposable income, and this fits parker to a tee, but is no reason to exclude mechanical web-shooters. the devices themselves have never been shown as very high tech devices and could be built for somewhere in the range of $100. the expensive part would be the chemicals, but as another poster here suggested those could be harvested and reproduced from his sweat or some other means.

Yeah, you just seem to be blipping over the story poblems there by suggesting em, 'sweat or other means', the simple fact is, the audience is probably not going to believe that the process of making up this miracle web formula on a regular basis is not an expensive process.
Even if they had the basis for the stuff come from his body(which i highly doubt they would do), however he makes the sackfuls of material he needs would feel like an expensive hobby, undermining the skinto factor.

[lixdexia]

Yeah, you just seem to be blipping over the story poblems there by suggesting em, 'sweat or other means' mayhaps, but i'd rather blip over a story problem with a small fix like that than blip over the chance at the multitude of great moments the character has had due to the mechanical web shooters.

the simple fact is, the audience is probably not going to believe that the process of making up this miracle web formula on a regular basis is not an expensive process.that's not a fact, that's an assumption based on your own prejudices

Even if they had the basis for the stuff come from his body(which i highly doubt they would do), however he makes the sackfuls of material he needs would feel like an expensive hobby, undermining the skinto factor. have you ever read a spider-man comic? if anything it enhances the "i'm poor" element...by making him poorer and needing the money even more

[david icke]

mayhaps, but i'd rather blip over a story problem with a small fix like that than blip over the chance at the multitude of great moments the character has had due to the mechanical web shooters.

that's not a fact, that's an assumption based on your own prejudices

where did I say it was a fact, I gave an estimate of 'probably', and that was based on an observation by a friend of mine who knows the basics of Spider-man, but is not a cb or sh fan per se. He said he didn't like the fact that the guy was supposed to be skint , but was somehow able to keep making this expensive looking web technology.



have you ever read a spider-man comic? if anything it enhances the "i'm poor" element...by making him poorer and needing the money even more

jezziz christ...it's besides the point, but I'd wager I was regularly reading Spider-man comics before you were born...let me ask you an equally patronising question...have you ever watched a movie? Do you know how they are a different medium than comics, and how some things we take for granted and blip over when reading our comics when transferred onto a movie screen can seem daft and unreal, undermining the story?

Let's get real here, because a movie does automatically make the storytelling process feel more real...the money you would make from freelance photography would not feel like it would cover such an expensive home made future type technology, especailly one that was used in such abundance.

[Dragon]

I have said this before to you in debate on this Dragon, but for me, the Iron-Man argument does not apply here as with IM we are buying into the fact that *the whole story is about a tech genius who is far above the normal, his tech genius is super-normal, that's what makes him a superhero*

Whereas with Spider-man, *we are buying into the fact that he gets Spider powers, that is what makes him a superhero, Peter Parker would never have become a superhero if he had not been bitten by the spider*.

Okay, David. First off, who ever said that Peter isn't every bit as smart as Stark? That's never been brought up in the comics at least. And shall we avoid the "Well, if Peter is that smart, why isn't he rich?" Thing. There are many geniuses who for varying reasons aren't rich. And also, Tony was BORN rich. He didn't have to earn it. And- let's also note that in the comics the only reason Peter hasn't done anything with hs genius is that the crappy writyers won't let him. The same as he can't be married. divorced or have children.

Second, the playing field between Tony and Peter is level. Tony is a genius- but it doesn't mean he can turn water into wine. He's given little resources and time to build next-level technology. Peter has some resources and more time to create his webshooters.

Peter isn't penniless. He just has a difficult time raising cash and sometimes runs into a crunch, the way everyone does. He's certainly not starving and just as the components to build Stark's Arc reactor are obviously cheap, so to could be the chemicals needed for the webbing.

The webbing is a story convinence that forces a big coincidence into the equation.

So is the Arc Reactor which no one could make work until Tony was dying in a cave.

and as I have come to realise, now that my friend brought it up, the fact that we will see Pete mixing up all these chemicals on a regular basis in a series of movies may in fact undermine the 'skint student' aspect of the character , which is a very attractive aspect of this superhero.

Well, considering the fact that the webbing saves his and other people's lives, I think he'd put it at the top of his grocery list.

But Again, it's only your assumption that the webbing requires wealth. All the chemicals that are in the human body add up to like 100.00 dollars IT'S NOT REAL WEBBING. It was never established to be, at least by Lee & Ditko. And again, while we're making assumptions, Iron Man's armor has to cost billions. Yet he's got multiple suits and no one wonders where he gets that much money. If you can suspend disbelief for one, you can for the other.

[lixdexia]

where did I say it was a fact, I gave an estimate of 'probably', and that was based on an observation by a friend of mine who knows the basics of Spider-man, but is not a cb or sh fan per se. He said he didn't like the fact that the guy was supposed to be skint , but was somehow able to keep making this expensive looking web technology.the simple fact is right there. also, i never said anything about your friends opinion because i don't give a rat's ass.
jezziz christ...it's besides the point, but I'd wager I was regularly reading Spider-man comics before you were born...let me ask you an equally patronising question...have you ever watched a movie? Do you know how they are a different medium than comics, and how some things we take for granted and blip over when reading our comics when transferred onto a movie screen can seem daft and unreal, undermining the story?i have, i'm actually a pretty big movie fan. as such i know that ANYTHING can seem real in a movie if treated with respect. everything about spider-man is ludicrous, from his suit to his powers, but if you treat them with respect and not as goofy comic book traits then they come across fine, as evidenced by the previous 3 movies

Let's get real here, because a movie does automatically make the storytelling process feel more real...the money you would make from freelance photography would not feel like it would cover such an expensive home made future type technology, especially one that was used in such abundance.it doesn't automatically become more real, but i can be handled that way.
but if you want to break down actual finances a freelance photog job also wouldn't be able to pay for an apartment in nyc, the constant repairs his suit needs, his aunt's bills, food, etc. peter's actual income isn't a real figure, it's pretty flexible. the only important thing, unless they handout keepsake peter parker ledgers, is his perceived money problems.

[david icke]

right there. also, i never said anything about your friends opinion because i don't give a rat's ass.

Ok, an unfortunate figure of speech i used, i didn't really mean it was a fact, as evidenced by my use of probably in the same sentence, bad expression on my part.

and rat's asses are quite a delicacey in some parts of the world so obviously it is not something you yourself are going to give up so easily.
and i thought it was an interesting pov from a member of the general audience, if he had that opinion from a vague knowledge of the books and/or cartoons, it might look a bit daft onscreen to people who do not take for granted the stuff they grew up reading in the books.

Believe it or not, I wouldn't mind seeing the mechanicals onscreen too. But, i am just trying to work out whether they would be a good idea in practise, or have any story/believability problems once they reach the stark reality that comes across when a cb in transferred to the screen.


i have, i'm actually a pretty big movie fan. as such i know that ANYTHING can seem real in a movie if treated with respect. everything about spider-man is ludicrous, from his suit to his powers, but if you treat them with respect and not as goofy comic book traits then they come across fine, as evidenced by the previous 3 movies

it doesn't automatically become more real, but i can be handled that way.
but if you want to break down actual finances a freelance photog job also wouldn't be able to pay for an apartment in nyc, the constant repairs his suit needs, his aunt's bills, food, etc. peter's actual income isn't a real figure, it's pretty flexible. the only important thing, unless they handout keepsake peter parker ledgers, is his perceived money problems.

They established that Pete lives in a flat that has something wrong with it(at least until he got married and mj took care of the bills), hence a low rent. They also have Pete behind on the rent until he scores a big payday with an exclusive for the Bugle. That's an ok story conceit, i can buy that.
He fixes his own suit, I don't think that would cost much.
Food can be cheap. He doesn't have to pay May's bills, in fact they made it that May helped *him* out in SM2.

I hope they do sort it out to be believable, we will see.

[david icke]

Okay, David. First off, who ever said that Peter isn't every bit as smart as Stark? That's never been brought up in the comics at least. And shall we avoid the "Well, if Peter is that smart, why isn't he rich?" Thing. There are many geniuses who for varying reasons aren't rich. And also, Tony was BORN rich. He didn't have to earn it. And- let's also note that in the comics the only reason Peter hasn't done anything with hs genius is that the crappy writyers won't let him. The same as he can't be married. divorced or have children.

Second, the playing field between Tony and Peter is level. Tony is a genius- but it doesn't mean he can turn water into wine. He's given little resources and time to build next-level technology. Peter has some resources and more time to create his webshooters.

Peter isn't penniless. He just has a difficult time raising cash and sometimes runs into a crunch, the way everyone does. He's certainly not starving and just as the components to build Stark's Arc reactor are obviously cheap, so to could be the chemicals needed for the webbing.



So is the Arc Reactor which no one could make work until Tony was dying in a cave.



Well, considering the fact that the webbing saves his and other people's lives, I think he'd put it at the top of his grocery list.

But Again, it's only your assumption that the webbing requires wealth. All the chemicals that are in the human body add up to like 100.00 dollars IT'S NOT REAL WEBBING. It was never established to be, at least by Lee & Ditko. And again, while we're making assumptions, Iron Man's armor has to cost billions. Yet he's got multiple suits and no one wonders where he gets that much money. If you can suspend disbelief for one, you can for the other.

Ok, I can accept that he is as smart in some degree, but not in the area of tech, because to me, that detracts from what makes Iron-Man's character special if they just turn around and make Marvel's most popular character just as smart as Tony.
They always had Reed Richards established as one of the top genuises of the world, but I just don't like that they have Pete on that level, he should be very , bery smart, but not on those guy's levels.

ok, we can maybe believe the mixture is cheap to make, but my point kind of was, will folk believev that when they see this high tech weapon used onscreen, I don't know.
anyway, it might not be a big deal if they don't. If the movie is great, they will not care about that so much.

[Rodrigo90]

Instead of him creating web shooters,he can just be them from Toys R US

http://www.toplessrobot.com/webshooter.jpg

:awesome:

[david icke]

Instead of him creating web shooters,he can just be them from Toys R US

http://www.toplessrobot.com/webshooter.jpg

:awesome:

I don't think a freelance photographer would be able to afford those tbh, maybe if , like the pizza job, they had him work at ToysRUs and got a staff discount, the general audience would buy that.
Otherwise, no, they look too expensive.

I would have loved those web shooter toys when I was a kid.

[Ajendo]

I think dragon ended this debate with his last post.

[Ajendo]

Also, if for nothing else other than to differentiate itself from Raimi's movies, just use the mechs. They're a staple in the comics so much so that they got rid of them only to bring them back again, when they could have been omitted and also the GA doesn't really care. Adding mechs to the movie will not have any adverse effects on the movie what so ever, end of story.

[david icke]

Also, if for nothing else other than to differentiate itself from Raimi's movies, just use the mechs. They're a staple in the comics so much so that they got rid of them only to bring them back again, when they could have been omitted and also the GA doesn't really care. Adding mechs to the movie will not have any adverse effects on the movie what so ever, end of story.

They might just be a big waste of time and take up valuable screentime with explanations and montages. It's not like the comics, we only have two hours here.
Audiences may feel, 'what the hell was that all about? they made zero difference to the movie bar taking up screentime that could have been used for something else.'

edit: and no, it's not 'end of story' until we have seen a spider-man movie with the mechanicals, then we can compare and contrast both versions, and have a clearer sense of what one worked best for the medium of film. everything else is personal opinion and conjecture.

[Ajendo]

They might just be a big waste of time and take up valuable screentime with explanations and montages. It's not like the comics, we only have two hours here.

Yes because peter creating mechs is going to take up the better part of a 2hour movie.:whatever: Dude, the first movie showed peter drawing up concept designs for his costume, we didn't actually see him break out Aunt May's sewing machine or bundle of thread and needle and see parker get his stitch on. Who's to say the same can't be done for the mechs.

If the movie actually focuses on telling an actual spider-man story then it can be established that peter is a genius with an inventive mind. We can see his room filled with awards and certificates of all kinds of academic achievements, particularly in the area of sciene; audiences will get the picture. So, to see his drawing up plans and concept designs for mechs once gaining his abilities won't be a problem.

Audiences may feel, 'what the hell was that all about? they made zero difference to the movie bar taking up screentime that could have been used for something else.'

You seem to think you can anticipate a genuine reaction from GAs surrounding this matter and it's absurd. It's spider-man, people know he has web shooters, hell the toy shooters are a best seller and dynamite with the kids. I don't know what sort of impact margin you're looking for with the potential inclusion of the mechs but the difference is fundamental and simple; in that it's part of who the character is and is a key factor in distinguishing the movie fro Raimi's efforts. As for the screen time being used for something else, care to expand? Because I'm having a hard time why you think the inclusion of mechs equates to lengthy screen time. Are you looking for more scenes where we have peter staring into space looking like some crying puppy or lengthy monologues from aunt may or how about pointless intrusions from lame "comic relief" characters?

edit: and no, it's not 'end of story' until we have seen a spider-man movie with the mechanicals, then we can compare and contrast both versions, and have a clearer sense of what one worked best for the medium of film. everything else is personal opinion and conjecture.

Well for me it is end of story because I don't see how having mechs can be a bad thing or worse than having scenes where Peter has his bloody mask off (sm2 train scene I'm looking at you in particular).

[david icke]

Yes because peter creating mechs is going to take up the better part of a 2hour movie.:whatever: Dude, the first movie showed peter drawing up concept designs for his costume, we didn't actually see him break out Aunt May's sewing machine or bundle of thread and needle and see parker get his stitch on. Who's to say the same can't be done for the mechs.

If the movie actually focuses on telling an actual spider-man story then it can be established that peter is a genius with an inventive mind. We can see his room filled with awards and certificates of all kinds of academic achievements, particularly in the area of sciene; audiences will get the picture. So, to see his drawing up plans and concept designs for mechs once gaining his abilities won't be a problem.



You seem to think you can anticipate a genuine reaction from GAs surrounding this matter and it's absurd. It's spider-man, people know he has web shooters, hell the toy shooters are a best seller and dynamite with the kids. I don't know what sort of impact margin you're looking for with the potential inclusion of the mechs but the difference is fundamental and simple; in that it's part of who the character is and is a key factor in distinguishing the movie fro Raimi's efforts. As for the screen time being used for something else, care to expand? Because I'm having a hard time why you think the inclusion of mechs equates to lengthy screen time. Are you looking for more scenes where we have peter staring into space looking like some crying puppy or lengthy monologues from aunt may or how about pointless intrusions from lame "comic relief" characters?



Well for me it is end of story because I don't see how having mechs can be a bad thing or worse than having scenes where Peter has his bloody mask off (sm2 train scene I'm looking at you in particular).

Y'know, after reading the hyperbolic first sentence of your post, I got the feeling, 'there's no point in having a serious discussion with this guy on this matter is there?'
and by the end of reading the post I had that feeling confirmed.
You've managed to turn a discussion on the organics vs machs into a bashing session on the Raimi movies which you know I am fan of, and of which you are not.
I don't know if it's Kaw's day off and he asked you to fill in for him, or you just wanted to have a go at me, but I'm really not bothered at all, by the sheer irrelevancy of your post or that feeling your just trying to get my back up.
please respond with a similar long winded irrelevancy peppered with rolling eye smileys, will you do me that favour pretty please? :hehe:

edit: and this thing about making Pete on the same level as Stark of scientific genuis they have intimated in the books...the more i think about it the more it bothers me.
Let's give Batman a quiver of arrows as well as his utility belt and make him as good an archer as Green Arrow.
Let's make Superman as fast as the Flash.
Let's give Green Arrow a power ring, he's green right?
It's the same as that, it diminishes the special quality of Iron-Man, the very thing that makes him a superhero in the first place.

the mechs in a film could just be a waste of time, I want the tightest film possible, they could spend 10mins on the mechs(they would have to be explained in more detail than a costume stitch up, i thought that much was obvious), and just have the same results afterwards as the organics being introduced to the movie would, that's 10mins wasted, 5% of the movie, screw that, I want as perfect a movie as possible.
the mechs could end up just being a bit of chore where they are not needed whatsoever.

[Ajendo]

Where did I bash Raimi's movies? I highlighted things I didn't like but I didn't bash it the way I would normally because I'm not here to discuss my disdain for his films. I made a point of what I don't want to see. You talk about scenes wasting time and a tight film; yet by your own admission are a fan of Raimi's movies and his films were full of pointless, time wasting scenes that bored myself and many others to tears. The mechs don't need 10 mins of explanation I don't know where you got that from o why you think that. You need to stop making assumptions and deluding yourself into thinking they're fact. Even if the mechs did take 10mins to explain, I'd rather see that than 10 minute pretentious speeches and horribly executed melodrama or the pathetic cheesy antics of peter dancing like a moron in the street or doing crazy **** in a jazz club... and you want a serious discussion?? Ha!

You've inexplicably closed your mind to the prospect of mechs on all levels and have written it off without any real reason other than, "it's more realistic to have organics if he has other spider powers" and then you've laughably backed that argument with how "montages of creating the mechs will waste time".

Honestly, I'm not trying to start an argument here or get on your back, if you feel that way then that's not my problem but maybe I'm wrong here but I find it odd that you don't seem to even want to consider the possibility of introducing mechs despite the fact that there have been compelling arguments to support the idea to make it work. Fact is, your being overly pedantic about a matter that (i'm going to assume here because you make it look so easy) the GA doesn't give a flying f**k about.

[Rodrigo90]

I feel the web shooters are essential. It doesn't make Iron Man lose his greatest trait of invention if Peter builds them. Tony has the greatest inventive mind in Marvel. Mr. Fantastic has one of the greatest scientific minds in Marvel.

Peter is way below them,but has a balance of both. Peter is an inventor and scientist,its true to his character. If he has the organics again,it destroys the greatest thing his inventive and scientific mind has ever produced. Its essentially raping his character...again.

[Dragon]

Ok, I can accept that he is as smart in some degree, but not in the area of tech, because to me, that detracts from what makes Iron-Man's character special if they just turn around and make Marvel's most popular character just as smart as Tony.
They always had Reed Richards established as one of the top genuises of the world, but I just don't like that they have Pete on that level, he should be very , bery smart, but not on those guy's levels.

ok, we can maybe believe the mixture is cheap to make, but my point kind of was, will folk believev that when they see this high tech weapon used onscreen, I don't know.
anyway, it might not be a big deal if they don't. If the movie is great, they will not care about that so much.

David, one thing I think is that you're over-blowing Stark's genius. And maybe the movies are the reason for this. Understand the way Marvel in the Silver Age developed these characters-

This hi the order in which they where introduced:

Fanstastic Four (1961)
Henry Pym (Pre-Antman 1982)
Hulk(1962)
Spider-Man (1962)
Thor(1962)
Ironman (1963)
Avengers (1963)
X-men(1963)
Daredevil(1964)

My reason for listing them in that order is this: With the exception of only Thor and Daredevil every comic featured a brilliant scientist. They handled different branches of science. Pym is a biologist. Reed Richards is a master of pretty much every branch of science. Bruce Banner is a physicist. Tony Stark is engineering and technology and for Peter it was chemistry. Even Professor X is a brilliant scientist aside from his telepathic powers.

Essentially Stan Lee loved scientists. Their uniqueness is in the branch of science they specialized in. So yes, Peter is as smart as Stark. He's younger, doesn't have Stark's experience or resources and isn't as knowledgable in Stark's area. But be clear- Cameron and then Raimi's decision to downgrade Peter's intelligence for whatever reason is their decision. It's not based on the source material.

And once again- Stark's situation, particularly as presented in the film is every bit as far-fetched as Peter's. The belief that Peter's making the webshoters would alienate the audience was simply a bad decision. Similar to Fox nixing Galactus and the Sentinels because they didn't want armored giants in their films and Transformers is released a month after FF2 and blows it out the water.
Similar to Them not wanting to see Captain America in Red, White and Blue. Similar to rendering the Hulk into a special effect rather than being a real character. Unfortunately alot of the people making these films don't have the vision that Stan Lee and his crew did.

[WhiteRat]

I think dragon ended this debate with his last post.

I was just about ready to say the same thing but you beat me to the punch.Yeah Dragon definetely just ended this whole debate taking Chris and David to school in his last few posts on this thread so that ends and closes this discussion about the mechs/organics issue.Like someone said,David obviously has fake friends he is making up and is too close minded about the mechs to understand how stupid the organics are.

If he doesnt want to accept the truth that they were put in the film because Raimi was too lazy to incorporate them into the film,let him live in his fantasy world he lives in about how wonderful the organics are and dont waste your breath on him.Dragon just took him to school and the more and more he tries to justify those infernal organics,he is just making himself look more and more like a fool constantly here so let him do that if thats what he wants to do.Like someone else mentioned earlier so well the people who worship the organics so much here are not even spider-man fans obviously,their James Cameron fans.nuff said.

[El Payaso]

They might just be a big waste of time and take up valuable screentime with explanations and montages. It's not like the comics, we only have two hours here.

Yes. Imagine you'd take 60 minutes to explain, say, Batman's origin in detail. What a mess of a movie that'd be.

[Chris Wallace]

But Chris, you know the reason why we're using Iron Man as a reference- because the circumstances underwhich he builds the armor initially are comparable to Peter's.

He has no money with him and it wouldn't matter if he did. He doesn't have the benefit of his resources, technology and able team of techniians. He builds the armor on the fly- while he's dying from his injuries, so he doesn't even have as much time as Peter does. Unbelievably, his captors allow him to work withtout inspecting his progress, not to mention they make the ridiculous request for him to build the Jericho missile - ONE MISSILE- which they obviously can't test to see if it would even work. So the whole situation is absurd. And there's nothing to indicate that he'd been in the process of building the armor. In the film, the design he uses is clearly not based on tech that would've been available to him at his plant. He built it based on having nothing but the available equipment. Moreover the arc reactor is something that no one had been able to make work under the best conditions (ala the overly mentioned 3M reference). Yet he builds it under the worst possible conditions.

Again, if the audience let that slip by, they'd never even give a second thought about Peter's webshooters.

Only James Cameron, decides that there are holes in the webshooter plot, even though it seemed to slip his mind in T2 that while nothing "dead" goes through the time-displacement portal, the T-1000 who can only simulate human flesh but is in fact metal, can go through with no problem. And no one cared about that either.
But he had the benefit of not only his resources (the "box of scraps") but also years of experience and ingenuity. Peter had never created anything before and yet came up with this technological and chemical marvel out of thin air, seemingly on the first try. It's a bad comparison.