OFFICIAL: Hugo Weaving is Red Skull

[Nathan]

Just not as Cap's sidekick, or not at all? He could just be a photographer like in the Ultimate comics.

[Project862006]

Johnson clearly said cap goes awol to save a friend i think that is bucky

[KangConquers]

Feige already confirmed Bucky would be in this film...

[DocHoliday]

Union Jack casting too perhaps? It could end up like Thor where we had like 3 or 4 names and then a flood of guys every week.

[Spider-Fan]

Macy would be good no doubt but I'm still plumping for the left-of-field casting of Keitel.

:D

Cap-Wolf :awesome:

[roach]

Feige already confirmed Bucky would be in this film...

link please???

[NEXUS 6]

Johnson clearly said cap goes awol to save a friend i think that is bucky

I'm not 100% sure, but I thought this was proven rumor. If anyone has the scoop + source either way, I'd be happy to hear it.


Also, at some of the above posts, I want David Bowie for Erskine. :yay:

[roach]

Johnson clearly said cap goes awol to save a friend i think that is bucky

He has plenty of friends in WW2...Nicky Fury, Namor, Original Human Torch

[Webhead2006]

yea it been stated before bucky is in the film, so we have bucky, peggy carter, which ever invaders are to be in the film, and the dr eskine or what ever his name is.

[Deaths Head II]

He has plenty of friends in WW2...Nicky Fury, Namor, Original Human Torch

Bucky is the only one that has a real possibility of showing up in this film. Nick Fury is based on Ultimate Fury so he probably won't have a WW2 history. Marvel may or may not have the rights for Namor and the Human Torch and Bucky is way more likely to appear in a WW2 Cap film them either of them. That's like Superman or Wonder Woman appearing in a Batman film franchise and Robin never showing up.

[Doctor Jones]

They shouldn't have any other Marvel cameos. It's too far back into the timeline. Maybe the mention of Howard Stark.

But Bucky would be interesting the more I think about it. There could be some parallel story where Bucky sees how we view Cap. Maybe he could even narate the beginning of the film. Just an idea... A simpy scene of Bucky in a line of soldiers in the rain with him looking at cap walking down the line. Could provide some interesting perspective. How their relationship begins and progresses through the war.

[Robin91939]

Better have an accent.....

-R

[Nirvana]

They shouldn't have any other Marvel cameos. It's too far back into the timeline. Maybe the mention of Howard Stark.

But Bucky would be interesting the more I think about it. There could be some parallel story where Bucky sees how we view Cap. Maybe he could even narate the beginning of the film. Just an idea... A simpy scene of Bucky in a line of soldiers in the rain with him looking at cap walking down the line. Could provide some interesting perspective. How their relationship begins and progresses through the war.

I actually think he should appear somewhere in the movie.

[Webhead2006]

well we know that red skull is the villain, bucky is in the film, and part of the film will include the invaders, we just dont know which ones they can and cant have or will use.

[paulogonza]

Hugo is confirmed as Red skull?

[Robin91939]

:: Triple Post :: Woah...sorry guys.

-R

[Robin91939]

Better have an accent....

-R

[Webhead2006]

i am sure skull will have an accent at least. no reason they wouldnt.

[paulogonza]

well, but weaving is confirmed or not? no one else talk anymore of negotiations, somebody knows?

[Project862006]

Variety confirmed Hugo

[Nathan]

Variety confirmed Hugo

If you're kidding I'll hunt you down. :argh:

It'll be great to see Weaving in a Marvel Movie as a villain.

[Chewy]

He's not kidding:

Variety says Hugo Weaving is definitely playing Red Skull
Chris Evans will don the star-spangled superhero suit to play Captain America for Marvel Entertainment (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=335083&page=10#).

Evans, who was made the offer late last week, beat out a number of thesps including John Krasinksi, Chace Crawford, Ryan Phillippe, Garrett Hedlund, Michael Cassidy, Patrick Flueger, Scott Porter and Wilson Blethel to land the role of Steve Rogers.

Deal calls for Evans to star in at least three "Captain America" movies, as well as "The Avengers," which will assemble Iron Man, Thor and the Incredible Hulk in one pic.

First introduced in the 1940s, the character is a sickly young man who is turned into the perfect human weapon to aid the United States' war effort during World War II when injected with a super soldier serum. His costume resembles the American flag and he flings an indestructible shield as his primary weapon.

Joe Johnston will direct "The First Avenger: Captain America" this summer. Hugo Weaving will play the villain, Red Skull. Film is slated to unspool July 22, 2011. Paramount will distribute.

Evans had already signed on to star in New Regency's comedy (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=335083&page=10#) "What's Your Number," with Anna Faris, that is skedded to shoot this summer.

Marvel already had a relatinship with Evans, with the thesp having previously played the role of Johnny Storm, aka the Human Torch, in Fox's two "Fantastic (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=335083&page=10#) Four" movies.

He will also appear in the adaptation of DC Comics' "The Losers" in April, and "Scott Pilgrim vs. the World," based on the Oni Press graphic novels SOURCE (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118016757.html?categoryid=13&cs=1&ref=vertfilm)

[Jake Cassidy]

Better have an accent....

-R

You think he's gonna keep his Aussie accent?

:woot:

[roach]

well we know that red skull is the villain, bucky is in the film, and part of the film will include the invaders, we just dont know which ones they can and cant have or will use.

I have yet to come across anything that confirmed Bucky.

[KangConquers]

One reveal Feige did make is that Cap's sidekick Bucky would indeed be in Captain America. When asked by Boucher if he'll appear, Feige said "it's a safe bet" that he'd be in the movie "in some capacity."

Read more: http://www.firstshowing.net/2009/06/07/profile-on-marvel-studios-with-big-updates-from-kevin-feige/#ixzz0j9Gxq5tc

[R_Hythlodeus]

so, hugo weaving is playing bucky now?

[KangConquers]

so, hugo weaving is playing bucky now?

Nope just responding to Roach.

[roach]

thats kool thanks...although I am not sure about the "some capacity" comment

[Webhead2006]

bucky will probably be friend and ally with cap. And with the invaders also being in the film it will probably be cap, bucky, and then probably like 3 other invader guys to make up the group there.

[Triad]

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Hugo Weaving and I'm sure he'll be an absolutely great Red Skull, but I'm still kinda disappointed that Mads Mikkelsen didn't get the part. He was BY FAR my favorite fit for the character. Hugo will rock though.

[Webhead2006]

yea mads would have been another solid actor. Though for us we dont know who else tested or was looked at for red skull. So its hard to judge what their decision was to go with hugo.

[Spider-Vader]

Hugo Weaving as Skull? Perfect casting again by Marvel. (The others being Downey & Norton)

[Webhead2006]

yea and i am sure any day now marvel will do an official deal. like how we finally get from marvel studios on both evans, and stan.

[Chris Wallace]

I SO want this to happen!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darkness Falls]

can't wait for our first look at the red skull :)
with today's technology/makeup achievements i'm certain it will look amazing, much better than the 90's movie :D

[Webhead2006]

totally mask/makeup stuff today is so great. So i hope he does have a wicked look.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Perfect choice, IMO. HOpe it happens.

[Chris Wallace]

i am sure skull will have an accent at least. no reason they wouldnt.

Let's just hope he's not Italian this time.:cmad:

[Webhead2006]

well i dont think we have to worry there chris. We know its 40s and nazis so it will probably be german and all that. The question is how good is hugo's german?

[paulogonza]

but hugo is not confirmed yet, if he signed Marvel was confirm when does eith Evans and Stan, i think they dont found a agree.

[DocHoliday]

True but we haven't heard any other names. And you'd think they's at least have a contingency plan.

[paulogonza]

correct, i hope so, or Marvel has wait announces Evans for announces Hugo, because put the villain before the main carachter is very strange.

[Webhead2006]

i think they probably do have hugo but probably will probably not say it officially via marvel site to maybe we get another cast member confirmed like peggy or an invader.

[paulogonza]

weel,maybe when peggy is announced,what must be soon, they announced Hugo, because they start filming in more orless twomonths,and they need the cast before that,i thought after Chris choiced as Capatain,the rest of the cast will be more fast.

[Webhead2006]

3 months shooting starts in june 28th. so we got april, may, and all of june before filming starts. And ya it will be nice for marvel to officially comment on hugo or not since we got evans/stan official from the studio.

[paulogonza]

http://www.earthsmightiest.com/fansites/captainamerica/news/?a=6886

well, maybe hugo weaving finally confirmed

[Whiskey Tango]

Hugo's news was kind of overshadowed by the hoopla involving Cap's casting, but I think he's cool as hell and I'm happy that he's in. In fact I never paid much attention to Skull's casting at all, who were the leading choices around here?

[Webhead2006]

yea hugo is a solid pick for lead villain, and yea he probably has been official for awhile. I still cant wait to see what direction/look they go for red skull. As for other names there was no official word of guys testing for the role as i recall. jsut a bunch of fan fav choices.

[BigSams50]

I wanted Hugo as Sinestro, but red skull will do lol

[UnkillableMick]

Hugo's news was kind of overshadowed by the hoopla involving Cap's casting, but I think he's cool as hell and I'm happy that he's in. In fact I never paid much attention to Skull's casting at all, who were the leading choices around here?

I wanted Christoph Waltz, but Weaving is a fine choice.

[Wolvieboy17]

I wanted Hugo as Sinestro, but red skull will do lol

Which is funny because alot of people wanted Mark Strong as Red Skull.

[Webhead2006]

lol yea but its to late for that strong is sinestro, and hugo is skull.

[Bad Superman]

Hugo = Red Skull = Win

[Wolvieboy17]

Daaaaats de joooooke

[weezerspider]

So was this ever like, really officially confirmed?

[Webhead2006]

well we dont have it official from marvel like haley/evans/stan. But he from what we know its pretty much it.

[The Infernal]

What kind of costume would people to see Red Skull wearing? S.S. Officer with long leather coat or something else?

[Webhead2006]

ss officer.

[Hunter Rider]

This is supreme casting.

What kind of costume would people to see Red Skull wearing? S.S. Officer with long leather coat or something else?

Undoubtedly the way to go.

[The Infernal]

Yeah, I was thinking 'classic Nazi bad guy look', such as the clockwork henchman from the start of Hellboy.

Though I'm wondering now since Red Skull wears a mask. Should we see his face or should he be masked for most\all the time?

[Webhead2006]

counts what they do with the mask, if its just a mask he wears or its his actual scared/mutated face.

[Chewy]

Marvel sent out a press release today

Marvel Studios announced today that Hugo Weaving has been cast to star as Johann Schmidt aka the Red Skull (http://marvel.com/universe/Red_Skull_%28Johann_Shmidt%29) in the studio's highly anticipated movie "Captain America: The First Avenger" opposite Chris Evans and Hayley Atwell. In the early comics, Johann Schmidt was drafted into loyal service of The Third Reich and renamed "The Red Skull." The character will be updated for the feature adaptation. Joe Johnston will direct the film penned by Christopher Markus & Stephen McFeely.

Marvel Studios' Kevin Feige will produce "Captain America: The First Avenger." Alan Fine, Stan Lee, David Maisel and Louis D'Esposito will executive produce. The film will be released in the U.S. on July 22, 2011 and distributed by Paramount Pictures.

"Captain America: The First Avenger" will focus on the early days of the Marvel Universe when Steve Rogers (http://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_%28Steve_Rogers%29) volunteers to participate in an experimental program that turns him into the Super Soldier known as Captain America.

Weaving was last seen in "The Wolfman" and his voice is very recognizable as Megatron from "Transformers" and "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" as well as Noah the Elder from "Happy Feet." His other film credits include starring in "V For Vendetta," "The Matrix" franchise and "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy.

In addition to "Captain America: The First Avenger," Marvel Studios will release a slate of films based on the Marvel characters including the highly anticipated sequel, "Iron Man 2 (http://marvel.com/movies/iron_man.iron_man_2)," starring Robert Downey Jr. and Gwyneth Paltrow on May 7, 2010, "Thor (http://marvel.com/universe/Thor_%28Thor_Odinson%29)" on May 6, 2011, and "Marvel Studios' The Avengers (http://marvel.com/universe/Avengers)" on May 4, 2012..SOURCE (http://marvel.com/news/moviestories.12326.captain_america_movie%7Ecolon%7 E_red_skull_cast)

[Iceman]

Nice!

Been a done deal for so long, Marvel really drag their heels with their announcements!

[The Infernal]

I hope the mention of his character being 'updated' just means made more straightforward and accessable to the general audience, because with forty years history and various incarnations it might get a bit confusing for those not aware of all his history (people like me I guess).

Oh and one more thing. Punch it, Chewy.

...sorry, just had to.

[terry78]

Kind of on the nose with this casting, as Mark Strong is currently being, but he'll do a good enough job.

[PyroChamber]

For all we know, they probably have half of the Marvel Universe casted already; Marvel's just waiting for the right time to announce.

[Webhead2006]

i am very glad its finally official from marvel studios. Cant wait to see how they have red skull look. Then of course how hugo plays the role.

[Rock Sexton]

i am very glad its finally official from marvel studios. Cant wait to see how they have red skull look. Then of course how hugo plays the role.

The thing is, Hugo already naturally has a "skullish" look to his facial features. He does have experience playing behind a mask in "V" .... but I get scared when movies start tinkering with mask ideas ....

[Son of Coul]

Hugo's gonna be awesome as always, without a doubt. Unlike Mark Strong, I find him very compelling and fun to watch. He just has a great screen presence. Mark Strong is a good actor, but in Sherlock Holmes and Kick-Ass I was much more interested in what was going on with the other characters. I'm just not as drawn in for whatever reason.

[Webhead2006]

yea i cant wait to see how hugo plays skull. As for the skull look i will be curious to see if it will just be a mask, or if it will be a mutated look(ie him wearing posthestic mask) and all that.

[King K]

I liked Mark Strong in Rock n' Rolla and Revolver but I'm more interested in Weaving as Red Skull than Strong as Sinestro.

[Raiden]

I hope they won't try to transform Weaving's face into a red skull like the comics do; I've never really like that look. They should try to update Red Skull and make him more modern-looking.

[KangConquers]

I hope they won't try to transform Weaving's face into a red skull like the comics do; I've never really like that look. They should try to update Red Skull and make him more modern-looking.

Absolutely not...they need to go with the comics. The Red SKull is iconic, and his look is so creepy.

[Chris Wallace]

As it should be.

[Marx]

I'm glad to hear it's finally official! :up:

[dark_knight08]

:unishr:Hugo Weaving is an excellent actor and I'm pretty confident he's gonna be great as Red Skull.

[roach]

I am ok with the choice but that little blurb about updating the character has me worried...why does he need to be updated???

[Spider-ManHero12]

Hugo Weaving = incredible choice for Red Skull! So happy it's finally official! :up:

[Webhead2006]

yea i rather they go ionic red skull then trying to do any fuity updating which isnt needed. all we need is red skull in a nazi uniform and blazing red skull and he can be great looking.

[Abraham]

http://jasonkrugman.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/92028-red-skull_400.jpg

Perfect Casting, good to see it confirmed.

[bert19]

I think this'll be a good choice. Weaving is a very versatile actor (just compare his role in Priscilla Queen of the Desert to V and you can see that). I think he'll bring a new side to Herr Skull. But i do hope that they keep hold of a genuine sense of evil and terror when we see him on screen. He can be devious and manipulative, but he was a propaganda weapon to begin with, so i hope we see that.

And please, have him smoking a cigarette in a holder at some point......

[Brian Braddock]

I'm unable to access my photobucket account so I cant post a pic, but I hope RS looks like this incarnation:-

http://www.cville.com/members/adam/images/statues/Red_Skull_Bust.jpg

I dunno, apart from being the 'classic' RS design, it just seems to lend itself to Weaving's features.

[The Infernal]

yeah, I'm hoping he doesn't look so cartoonish.

Also, I hope he isn't wearing a jumpsuit like the pic a few posts up.

[Son of Coul]

As for "updated" that could mean anything. I mean, you could consider Stane, Blonsky, Hammer, and certainly Vanko "updated." They also said they were updating Jane Foster but she seems to be similar based on rumors and BTS stories. At least they didn't say "revamped" or "reimagined" or any of that ********.

[Bad Superman]

Hugo Weaving as Red Skull:

:cmad::up::up:

[Rock Sexton]

I'm unable to access my photobucket account so I cant post a pic, but I hope RS looks like this incarnation:-

http://www.cville.com/members/adam/images/statues/Red_Skull_Bust.jpg

I dunno, apart from being the 'classic' RS design, it just seems to lend itself to Weaving's features.

That's cool for the comics and perhaps a CGI-based film .... but for a movie shot in real life settings, it's a bit exaggerated. He would look extremely out of place. Right now, I'm personally wanting to see a deformity that creates that red skull look for him.

[BoredGuy]

I'm not a fan of pretty much anything 'Ultimate' at this point...


However, I really dig how Millar had Red Skull get his look in ultimates
Carvin off your face to intimidate people is friggin B.A.
If he did that, he'd automatically vault himself to the scariest comic movie villain ever

[Rock Sexton]

I'm not a fan of pretty much anything 'Ultimate' at this point...


However, I really dig how Millar had Red Skull get his look in ultimates
Carvin off your face to intimidate people is friggin B.A.
If he did that, he'd automatically vault himself to the scariest comic movie villain ever

Kind of agree here.

[The Infernal]

The Ultimate universe feels more like one long poorly conceived 'what if' at this point. Ultimate Skull is a good example of this.

Aside from what problems I have with the Ultimates concept I find Ultimate Skull looking a bit daft. He skins his head and yet manages to leave his ears on yet somehow skinless as well, maybe he should have been a surgeon. That and the way they draw his head, he looks like a shaved ape. Admittedly a shaved ape covered in tattoos and is a bigger asshat than Ult. Cap.

[Webhead2006]

i doubt ultimate red skull will have anything to do with first avenger. film red skull is more then likely goin to be 616 skull and nazi control and all that.

[LastSunrise1981]

Edit: double post.

[LastSunrise1981]

I am curious, character wise how does everyone want the Red Skull to be depicted?

[SpiderByte]

HAPPY!

That's pretty much my opinion.

[Webhead2006]

hmmm thats hard for me, i dont know the skull character much myself beyond cartoons and what little i have seen of him in modern comics. So i just hope they make him how he was in the 616 comics a ruthless and bad ass dude.

[skiddyboy]

Found this on deviant art:


http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/124/5/6/Hugo_Weaving_Red_Skull_by_MARCEL0.png

[louiebling$]

Found this on deviant art:


http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/124/5/6/Hugo_Weaving_Red_Skull_by_MARCEL0.png
That's pretty awesome

[Webhead2006]

yea pretty sick design to who ever created it.

[Ipodman]

Wow thats a cool design

[Vile]

After seeing Weaving as V in V For Vendetta...part of me is hoping they go with the Red Skull Mask version of the character.

[roach]

while its a cool design it looks too much like a zombie

[Bad Superman]

Found this on deviant art:


http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/124/5/6/Hugo_Weaving_Red_Skull_by_MARCEL0.png

:wow: that's badass.

[Brian Braddock]

Pretty damn cool design;

Just not a fan of the veins on the old bonce there - looks a tad phallic.

[Compi716]

Wow, that's incredibly grotesque. It could work.

There was a post a while back from someone saying that he read plot points of Cap and Thor off some Dutch marketing site (or something like that). According to the points, Skull undergoes a physical transformation, resulting in a deformed read head.

If that's to be taken seriously, then it means he won't simply don a mask. Regardless of how they do it, I'm a big fan of the way Epting draws Skull, and wouldn't mind seeing him like that in the movie.

[roach]

Since the movie is in rewrites I dont think anything can be considered fact about the film...Red Skull can be done two ways....1)Transformation which would give him the origin of a failed Supersoldier experiment. 2)Man in a mask which would give the production problems since they want to explain Cap's costume...they'll need to explain the skull mask

[Webhead2006]

well they could do both mask skull first uses to intimate troops and all that. Then if they go and have him get mutated by a rouge version of the SSS he could end up being deformed skull head.

[roach]

I prefer the mask route

[Webhead2006]

yea i dont have much prefrence to either myself. i would be fine with mask or mutated as long as it has a good reasoning behind it.

[kaijunexus]

I'm not quite as familiar with the Red Skull's history as I am with many other characters. Would someone care to briefly summarize his general history in the comics, as well as how he transitioned from a skull mask into actually having a disfigurement?

[roach]

As with many supervillains, Johann Schmidt had a traumatic childhood that warped his mind, paving the way for villainy in his adult life. Johann Schmidt was born in a village in Germany to Hermann and Martha Schmidt. Schmidt's mother died in childbirth and his father blamed Johann for it and tried to murder him, only to be stopped by the attending doctor. The father later committed suicide and Johann was orphaned. He grew up on the streets as a beggar and a thief struggling to survive and his hatred of humanity grew with each day. A key episode was when he fell for a local Jewish girl, but when she spurned his clumsy advances, he murdered her, finding a release for his frustrations. With that, his depravity grew even more.

Schmidt worked as a menial laborer and in his late teens, during the rise of the Third Reich, Schmidt got his most prosperous job; a bellhop in a major hotel, while there he served the rooms of Adolf Hitler himself. By chance, Schmidt was present when the Führer was furiously scolding an officer, during which Hitler pledged that he could create a better National Socialist out of the bellhop. Looking closely at the youth and sensing his dark inner nature, Hitler decided to take up the challenge and recruited Schmidt.

Dissatisfied with the standard drill instruction his subordinates used to train Schmidt, Hitler took over personally, and trained Schmidt as his right-hand man. Upon completion, Hitler gave Schmidt a unique uniform with a grotesque red skull mask, and he emerged as the Red Skull for the first time. His role was the embodiment of Nazi intimidation, while Hitler could remain the popular leader of Germany. To that end, The Red Skull was appointed head of Nazi terrorist activities with an additional large role in external espionage and sabotage. He succeeded, wreaking havoc throughout Europe in the early stages of World War II. The propaganda effect was so great that the United States government decided to counter it by creating their own equivalent using the one recipient of the lost Project Rebirth, Steve Rogers, as Captain America

[Webhead2006]

nice recap roach.

[Rock Sexton]

IMO, the way it's drawn in the comics, won't translate well over on the big screen. A "deformity" will be far more imposing than a mask if done correctly.

[Webhead2006]

now with zola in the film i think we could lead to mutated skull look maybe.

[roach]

I dont know...I dont see an organization based on racial superiority allowing a deformed person rise up....its more devious for it to be a mask.....hell I'd play up that people think its a deformity to reveal its a mask. Its easy to be evil if your face looks like a skull...but it shows how screwed up he is if he wears a mask

[Webhead2006]

well they can write it in if its tied to the SSS forumla that they are not doing it correctly and it causes side effects and all that leading to skull's skull appearance. Who knows we will have to see. well i do think we can start off with a mask, but then lead into mutated look also.

[The Infernal]

It should be a mask, that's how it started out. They probably changed it later on in the comics because they thought it would be cool if his face was actually like that.

[roach]

actually I think its still a mask

[Webhead2006]

well like i said i dont see why we cant have both him startin out in a skull mask, which then leads to mutated/deform look if he experiments on himself or what not.

[Captain America]

This is a perfect choice!

[WillardNation]

*resubscribes*

[skiddyboy]

I dont know...I dont see an organization based on racial superiority allowing a deformed person rise up....its more devious for it to be a mask.....hell I'd play up that people think its a deformity to reveal its a mask. Its easy to be evil if your face looks like a skull...but it shows how screwed up he is if he wears a mask



At the end of the day if Hitler said "this guy is the man" then the Nazi party would fall in line.

[gdw]

Well, I didn't see this yet, but I could have missed it.
I believe in the books, the Red Skull technically always wore a mask. However, given a lot of the manips people have made, a disfigured Red Skull certainly seems to be a prominent idea.

I actually always had assumed he was disfigured, until more recently when I read it was a mask.

I think disfigurement seems to add depth to a character, making what they are something they can never escape, never separate themselves from it.

Well, what's the general preference? I even thought the look in the old crappy film was pretty good, until he "fixed" his face in the "present day."

Also, given the look they gave Langella in Masters of the Universe, I am very excited about the possibilities for his look in the film, though I am also prepared for utter disappointment. Not that they've disappointed so far, just that an idea like this can be completely screwed up quite easily in a movie.

[gdw]

Where's the poll option?

[Microchip]

Personally I'd go with masked, at least to start. Something crude, plain but memorable. I think I know where you're going with the "never can escape from, has to live with" part, but Red Skull should be evil because he's evil, not because he's hard done by and has to life with a horrible disfigurement. He's kind of a bad buy that you're not supposed to empathize with at all.

[Danalys]

I'd go for a red mask reminiscent of the skulls on nazi uniforms, which covers a super soldier serum prototype disfigurement. Just so you can have a reveal and save on time making up the actor. I figure the nazis would want to hide the fact they they botched their attempt somewhat. The mask allows a counter point between Cap and the skull one inspiring through hope the other fear.

[weezerspider]

I'd go for a red mask reminiscent of the skulls on nazi uniforms, which covers a super soldier serum prototype disfigurement. Just so you can have a reveal and save on time making up the actor. I figure the nazis would want to hide the fact they they botched their attempt somewhat. The mask allows a counter point between Cap and the skull one inspiring through hope the other fear.

I could dig that.

[SuperFerret]

Wasn't the skull originally a mask and then due to some sort of accident (after years of villainy, as it was never his motivation) was disfigured to look all Red Skully?

[Alchemyst]

I'd go for a red mask reminiscent of the skulls on nazi uniforms, which covers a super soldier serum prototype disfigurement. Just so you can have a reveal and save on time making up the actor. I figure the nazis would want to hide the fact they they botched their attempt somewhat. The mask allows a counter point between Cap and the skull one inspiring through hope the other fear.

That sounds great!!!!!! :awesome:

[S.A.A.D.]

I'm hoping for both to happen,in the movie that is,he starts off wearing a mask and then has a freak accident.

[Spider-Vader]

I wouldn't mind either way.

Though, it'd be easily explained why he wears a mask. He's a Nazi leader & those guys were all kooky. :oldrazz:

[Wesley Dodds]

Have Red Skull's origin run parallel to Cap's at the start of the movie. That would be the best way, I think.

Just have him be a higher-up soldier corrupted and driven mad by some deviated form of the SS serum...

[Webhead2006]

did we need this thread, we got red skull threads to talk about it. though for me i dont mind if he is masked or face mutated.

[Wesley Dodds]

did we need this thread, we got red skull threads to talk about it. though for me i dont mind if he is masked or face mutated.

That's the closest i've ever seen you be critical of ANYTHING, Webhead.

I'm almost scared...



:hehe:

[Webhead2006]

lol wesley i was just saying we have talked about the whole mask/real skull head in the red skull thread, and possibly another.

[Silvermoth]

Where's the poll option?

It probably dissappeared due to the lag in the hype recently. The same thing happened to me not two days hence.

[Slipeor]

My votes is for masked. I think a disfigured skull face is too campy, although the recent Ultimate Red Skull idea was pretty cool, though I kept wondering why it didn't get all scabby and stuff as it healed.

[gdw]

I just wanted o clarify what I mean with regards to his being disfigured in relation to his character.

In no way was I suggesting that it be connected to his motivation, so much as it was a way in which he was cursed by his nature, or cursed with a visual representation of his nature. Of course, given his nature, I am not sure he would consider it a curse. Especially if he started with the mask willingly, then perhaps disfigured himself on purpose to give himself a permanent "mask."

Similarly, I don't think it should be played in any way to make him a sympathetic villain. He's a freakin' Nazi. There's no sympathy there. Just like the pope.

[That-Guy]

Mangled. My fear is that a mask would just look stupid (a la Green Goblin in Spider-Man), whereas an actual skull-esque disfigurement would make him look super-creepy, if done well.

[GhostPoet]

Mangled. Infact, I'd like him skinless. Just red muscle possibly. the mask...I don't know...I think a mask would come off too much like power-rangers.

[Demon Within]

Mask. Its scarier because when he takes it off he can be anyone and no one knows its him. gives him an advantage.

[Webhead2006]

well even if he wore a mask, whos to say it would be a armor/plastic looking thing like spidey 1 green goblin. it could end up being more form fitting faceless mask type of deal.

[Doc Ock]

I think it might be better to wear a mask, but I think it could work either way.

[The Guard]

Both.

[Saint]

I prefer it as a disfiguration. The explanation that he wore a mask to to spook people as a Nazi symbol doesn't sit well with me, on account of a guy in a skull mask not being scary, and the reality that the swastika on his arm was a more powerful symbol than the skull mask could ever be. Still, I suppose there could be a way to make it work out there somewhere.

[TheLongestDay]

I prefer it as a disfiguration. The explanation that he wore a mask to to spook people as a Nazi symbol doesn't sit well with me, on account of a guy in a skull mask not being scary, and the reality that the swastika on his arm was a more powerful symbol than the skull mask could ever be. Still, I suppose there could be a way to make it work out there somewhere.


well said

[The Question]

I say go for the mask. I'm imagining something like a red, wooden opera mask in the form of a skull. Simply have him be a theatrical sadist who wore it as an intimidation tactic, as well as making it so enemies wouldn't recognize his face when he's not on duty. I understand the above point of the swastika on his arm being all the intimidation power he needs, but the SS (and I am assuming he'll be a special operative of the SS) was made up of some especially violent sociopaths, and some of them strove to go above and beyond in their depravity. Look at Amon Goeth. He didn't just strive to have the Nazi party, or even the SS be a symbol of fear. He strove for Amon Goeth to be a symbol of fear. I see the Skull as having the same mentality.


Besides. Think about it. Hugo Weaving is one of the few big time film stars who has the skill and is completely willing to spend a large amount of a film behind a completely concealing mask. That was probably a factor in his casting.

[Spider-Vader]

Mangled is the way to go. It could make him look iconic & scary. I want Marvel to finally have a villain that could become a movie icon. Red Skull might just be that villain, if done right of course.

[Webhead2006]

for me i said it before i wouldnt mind for him to be masked or deformed face. heck i could see them doing both.

[Norm3]

I say mask.

[Iron_Stark]

Hugo Weaving just got through saying he's going to be wearing prosthetics.

[Hunter Rider]

Hugo Weaving just got through saying he's going to be wearing prosthetics.

Great news, that is what I was hoping for.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Der Sküll should start out as normal, but when one of the lethal personalized gas guns he uses on his victims misfires, it turns him into The Red Skull.

[roach]

seems like the cosmic cube will give him his skull look.....
was actually hoping for a mask

[Rock Sexton]

Great news, that is what I was hoping for.

Same with me.

[roach]

just because he is wearing prosthetics doesnt mean it wont be a mask on screen...just saying

[Tony Stark]

I want a masked Red Skull. Something that would just be used to hide his identity as a shadowy figure. Something that looks regal and not like a halloween costume. Like someone said before an opera type mask.

Something similar to this but more rounded and refined (think Phantom of the Opera):

http://www.elementalillusions.com/images/red_skull.jpg

[Colonel Kurtz]

In the comics Der Führer gave him the mask.

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2281/propagandalabel01.jpg

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/8045/redskull.jpg

[Spideyfan93]

Yep, seems like the Cosmic Cube is going to do it and make him an ugly mother******. I hope it goes down this way:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f23/amazonking/face-melt.jpg

[Shivsguy616]

Der Sküll . . .

Der Totenkopf or der Schädel.

[NEXUS 6]

Unfortunately, I can honestly say I feel like it's not going to matter much... so far the Marvel villains haven't become their comic counterparts until the Third Act. I've got a horrible feeling that we'll be seeing Skully as a plain old Nazi until just before the final battle.

[davince338]

And we get a look on how he becomes the Red Skull, because in the movie everything has to be explained.

[Surfer]

I agree with most of the more recent posts that it seems likely they will use the Cosmic Cube to melt his face like they did in Raiders of the Lost Ark, except with better special effects. I know that does not follow the origins of him wearing a mask, but I think it would be a change for the better. I also wouldn't mind them incorporating his origin with the gas canister misfiring (dust of death) scenario, but I guess we will have to wait and see what they decide to do.

Surfer

[spider1975]

I know we still haven't seen a true pic of Evans as Cap but why not just a pic of the skull.

[Chewy]

I think they should never release the first pic of the Red Skull

[spider1975]

I think they should never release the first pic of the Red Skull

And why?

[lixdexia]

i think they should release the whole film!

[spider1975]

i think they should release the whole film!

Well yes....but we have a ways to go. Need some to juice to fill the gaps.

[lixdexia]

Well yes....but we have a ways to go. Need some to juice to fill the gaps.
yes, but i was just making a joke. you gave no reasoning for wanting a picture of the red skull now, so i made a similar groundless demand.

with the movie so far away and thor coming before it, it does marvel no good to waste the hype a red skull pic would bring just yet.

[spider1975]

yes, but i was just making a joke. you gave no reasoning for wanting a picture of the red skull now, so i made a similar groundless demand.

with the movie so far away and thor coming before it, it does marvel no good to waste the hype a red skull pic would bring just yet.

There was no "reason" behind the question. I am just getting a little annoyed with Marvel keeping a lot of things under such tight wrap. They are not going to kill anything by showing a pic. Same with Thor, GL, even Spider-Man. Why can't we see a taste? I think we all want that.

[Silvermoth]

I can hear the sound of a thread closing.

[spider1975]

I can hear the sound of a thread closing.

Why? I think it is a legit question and I think there are a lot fans out there thinking the same thing. If a thread about Emma Stone not being a natural blond (like it matters) can keep on going, why not a thread about a pivotal villian in Cap's movie?

[lixdexia]

There was no "reason" behind the question. I am just getting a little annoyed with Marvel keeping a lot of things under such tight wrap. They are not going to kill anything by showing a pic. Same with Thor, GL, even Spider-Man. Why can't we see a taste? I think we all want that.
1- they keep it wrapped up because they get better returns when they wait and release things closer to the movie. they're thinking about the bottom line, not wither or not we want the pictures.
2- your desire for the pictures don't really need their own thread, there are plenty others here you could have made that statement in

[spider1975]

1- they keep it wrapped up because they get better returns when they wait and release things closer to the movie. they're thinking about the bottom line, not wither or not we want the pictures.
2- your desire for the pictures don't really need their own thread, there are plenty others here you could have made that statement in

So I suppose to start a thread, it should because I have pivotal info on something relating to the movie? I was of the understanding we are all fans and we come here to discuss things we have interest in. I didn't know that my threads had to to be super in depth.

Close the thread then. Sorry for voicing such a "stupid" question.

[lixdexia]

So I suppose to start a thread, it should because I have pivotal info on something relating to the movie? I was of the understanding we are all fans and we come here to discuss things we have interest in. I didn't know that my threads had to to be super in depth.

Close the thread then. Sorry for voicing such a "stupid" question.
it's not that your opinion was stupid, i want a red skull pic too, but one opinion on an issue as frivolous as this does not need it's own thread. maybe rename it the red skull thread and broaden the discussion.

[spider1975]

it's not that your opinion was stupid, i want a red skull pic too, but one opinion on an issue as frivolous as this does not need it's own thread. maybe rename it the red skull thread and broaden the discussion.

Good point!

[spider1975]

it's not that your opinion was stupid, i want a red skull pic too, but one opinion on an issue as frivolous as this does not need it's own thread. maybe rename it the red skull thread and broaden the discussion.


How do your rename the the thread btw?

[lixdexia]

How do your rename the the thread btw?
ask a mod to do it? i don't know, i'll see what i can do.

[spider1975]

ask a mod to do it? i don't know, i'll see what i can do.

Thank you! :)

[C. Lee]

It's now the RED SKULL thread.

[lixdexia]

thanks C

so, the skull is reported to be mostly prosthetics with the nose to be removed in post. thoughts?

i like it, there's a texture i think the skull should have that you just can't get with cgi.

[redhawk23]

has anyone ever heard weaving due an accent?

[sdn]

I really hope they don't release any pictures of Red Skull. It would take away from the big reveal, like when Two-Face was finally revealed in TDK. Or when the shark was revealed in Jaws.

[lixdexia]

but the red skull shouldn't be hidden like jaws and should play a much more prominent role than two-face did in tdk. it'd be more akin to not seeing the joker until the movie is out

[wobbly]

has anyone ever heard weaving due an accent?

He has put on an accent in The Matrix films (American), LOTR, V and The Wolfman (English).

German? Not as far as I know, but I'm sure he can do it.

[Steve Holt]

his german accent is pretty good, the audio leaked a couple months ago

[cryptic name]

has anyone ever heard weaving due an accent?

well he does one every time he plays an American or an Englishman, so yeah. Also heard him do a German accent while at comic con :cwink: and it was awesome.

[Shivsguy616]

Where in Germany is Red Skull from?

[wobbly]

Don't think they ever specified where in Germany. Just been described as 'a Village' afaik.

[Denny67]

http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/_img/chars/char_9761.jpg
somevone call mi kname?

[lixdexia]

is that the superhero squad version of the skull?

[spider1975]

thanks C

so, the skull is reported to be mostly prosthetics with the nose to be removed in post. thoughts?

i like it, there's a texture i think the skull should have that you just can't get with cgi.

Nosed to removed through cgi? I know the Skull now is a victim of his own poison and is permanently disfigured but wasn't the Skull's mask simply a mask prior to that?

[wobbly]

Nosed to removed through cgi? I know the Skull now is a victim of his own poison and is permanently disfigured but wasn't the Skull's mask simply a mask prior to that?

Yup. It was always a mask until his original body finally died and Zola transferred his mind into a cloned body of Cap.
That bodies face was disfigured a bit later on (as you mentioned, by his own poison), then more recently that body was also killed (by Bucky/Winter Soldier).
After that his mind shared a body with another baddie until that too was killed, then his mind was placed into a robot body by Arnim Zola (and a 'telly-tubby' robot like Zola's own at that).

Currently his status is 'presumed dead' after an attempt to place his mind in Caps actual body failed and the robot body that was housing his mind was destroyed.

[BoredGuy]

But now Sin looks like Skull...

so Red Skull has boobies.

[GhostPoet]

I'm still betting on th device he's obessed with melting his face with it's awesome power. :)

[Denny67]

is that the superhero squad version of the skull?

yup

[MALFUNCTION]

I'm still betting on th device he's obessed with melting his face with it's awesome power. :)

Seriously, there's no better way to establish both the Skull and the device. Despite getting his face burned off, the skull persists in his evil obsession to posses the device. Mwahahaha.

[lixdexia]

i love how everyone keeps saying "the device", don't we know that it's the cosmic cube?

[The Infernal]

Maybe he was just watching the end of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' and like all Nazis his face melted. :oldrazz:

[Whiskey Tango]

I'm still betting on th device he's obessed with melting his face with it's awesome power. :)

That's where my money's been since we learned about the Cube. :up:

[Danalys]

Yup. It was always a mask until his original body finally died and Zola transferred his mind into a cloned body of Cap.
That bodies face was disfigured a bit later on (as you mentioned, by his own poison), then more recently that body was also killed (by Bucky/Winter Soldier).
After that his mind shared a body with another baddie until that too was killed, then his mind was placed into a robot body by Arnim Zola (and a 'telly-tubby' robot like Zola's own at that).

Currently his status is 'presumed dead' after an attempt to place his mind in Caps actual body failed and the robot body that was housing his mind was destroyed.

i think mind transference is something they could happily avoid in the films.

[The Caped Knight]

http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu50/Fannboi/redskull-1.jpg

Weaving is beyond perfect casting, Just look at that face, It's got pure Evil written all over it (and he hasn't even got the Red Skull make-up on yet):wow: I can't wait to see the Red Skull, I'm hoping they don't release any promo pics of what he's going to look like until the movie release date or better yet not at all and we'll just see the final look in the film .

[kedrell]

Yes!!! They're using the chamber. I had hoped they would instead of just using a shot with a syringe.

[kedrell]

doublepost

[Danalys]

Strangely early Science fiction like.

[MiniBond]

http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu50/Fannboi/redskull-1.jpg

Weaving is beyond perfect casting, Just look at that face, It's got pure Evil written all over it (and he hasn't even got the Red Skull make-up on yet):wow: I can't wait to see the Red Skull, I'm hoping they don't release any promo pics of what he's going to look like until the movie release date or better yet not at all and we'll just see the final look in the film .

the risk being to act over the top :dry:

[Symbiotic]

Weaving looks good and all, but I wanna see the Skull.

[dark_knight08]

http://cdn.superherohype.com/assets/components/com_joomgallery/img_originals/captain_america_4979/captain_america_20101101_1309847376.jpg Weaving is beyond perfect casting, Just look at that face, It's got pure Evil written all over it (and he hasn't even got the Red Skull make-up on yet):wow: I can't wait to see the Red Skull,

:unishr:Ladies and Gentlemen, Hugo Weaving is Johann Schmidt a.k.a. the Red Skull.
I can't wait to see the Skull make-up on his face.

[Spider-Fan]

I think Weaving is probably going to ham up the performance a bit, but for a character like the Red Skull, that is perfect.

[Project862006]

in the audio of the comic con scene he did'nt sound campy but menacing

[Spider-Fan]

By ham it up, I mean overact...you can overact menacing.

[Excelsior.]

This is the sound of inevitability. This is the sound of your death.

Goodbye, Mr Rogers.

[ElMariachi]

was that audio with Red Skull and Hitler real and apart of the movie?

[Excelsior.]

Edit.

[Whiskey Tango]

was that audio with Red Skull and Hitler real and apart of the movie?

It's not Hitler (it's Weaving and an old man who's the guardian/whatever of the Cosmic Cube) but it is from the movie. from the first week of filming, in fact.

[redhawk23]

I don't know, the role seems to be for scene shredding, but if anyone can pull it off without it being stupid its Weaving. Besides maybe Cary Grant, he is my favorite actor.

[GhostPoet]

The movieverse is seperate from the comics reality. Therefore, it only makes sense that the Red Skull would fit with the look of the movieverse...which apparently, judging from past films is riding the line between the comics and Ultimates.

[Elevator Man]

I was hoping they would've kept his origin a mystery. I wasn't expecting to see Weaving's real face. Like someone said above I hope they cover his Red Skull face till after the film's been released.
I remember Nolan didn't release any publicity stills of Two-Face. And if anything was leaked on Two face. I'd refused to look at any leaked photos of him. I wanted to be amazed (and I was) when I saw Two- Face the first time and the same goes for Red Skull. Probably doubtful that'll happen.
But I think it would of been interesting if they left his origins a mystery.

[kedrell]

So what are we speculating on? A mask, facial scarring or a combo of both?

[lixdexia]

i think it's scarring

[sabetoonth]

ima go with scarring

[kedrell]

I'm going with both. He uses the mask early on as a tool of intimidation and then later get's f-ed up by the cosmic cube.

[Raiden]

http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu50/Fannboi/redskull-1.jpg

Weaving is beyond perfect casting, Just look at that face, It's got pure Evil written all over it (and he hasn't even got the Red Skull make-up on yet):wow: I can't wait to see the Red Skull, I'm hoping they don't release any promo pics of what he's going to look like until the movie release date or better yet not at all and we'll just see the final look in the film .

Weaving is one of the best character actors around in Hollywood imo...he always look convincing in any role he plays, whether it's the ageless Elrond from LOTR or the evil Mr. Smith from Matrix trilogy. I'm very glad that he is lending his talent on Capt. America.

[kaijunexus]

I'm going with both. He uses the mask early on as a tool of intimidation and then later get's f-ed up by the cosmic cube.

I really doubt that. That's really quite a coincidence, isn't it? He wears a skull mask...until his face is accidentally scarred to look exactly like a skull?

[sabetoonth]

Well Skulls are a symbol, it doesnt even have to be red for me if they go that route

[Whiskey Tango]

I really doubt that. That's really quite a coincidence, isn't it? He wears a skull mask...until his face is accidentally scarred to look exactly like a skull?

It's like the lame pun names in comics, like if your name is Jim Burns and then you get fire powers. I always hated those.

[wobbly]

So what are we speculating on? A mask, facial scarring or a combo of both?

They have said its not a mask. Also, the Red Skull look is not a scarred or burned up face, it is red skin with exaggerated brows, cheek bones, no nose, etc, so I'm guessing the Cube may be what deforms his face rather than him having some other mishap, like getting burnt (a burned up face wouldn't be a deep red anyway once the skin heals)

[SuperFerret]

I really doubt that. That's really quite a coincidence, isn't it? He wears a skull mask...until his face is accidentally scarred to look exactly like a skull?

That's what happens in the comics.

[kaijunexus]

That's what happens in the comics.

That doesn't make it any less ludicrous.

[RetroNaz]

You guys should check out an aussie film called "The Interview" that Hugo starred in. You get to see some very good acting from this guy.

[Galactus123]

I hope that he looks like this
http://www.collider.com/wp-content/image-base/Clubhouse/M/Marvel/captain_america_red_skull_comic.jpg

[RetroNaz]

Hell yeah :up:

[lixdexia]

i don't, can't get any emotion through with no brow or mouth

[roach]

he conveyed enough emotion behind a mask in V

[Whiskey Tango]

he conveyed enough emotion behind a mask in V

Yeah but he still had lips. Try talking without lips and see how well it works out.

[lixdexia]

i found v to be pretty one emotion throughout that whole movie, so no.

[B]

i don't, can't get any emotion through with no brow or mouth

I agree completely.

In comics/animation the skull alone may work & look good and all but in live action the skull alone just doesn't quite cut it in my opinion. Ghost Rider is a good example of this, with no possible movement from a skull its hard to tell when hes being threatening & when he isn't.. if that makes sense.

Assuming they are going with scarring I'd essentially just like it to look as if the skin has been burnt or peeled off his head leaving just raw exposed red flesh & some bone.. it leaves the actor/character the ability to be able to show emotion when needed.

[captainrogers]

I'm pretty fond of the oldschool Kirby skull mask. So I'd go with him having lips and a slightly exaggerated brow. At least lips to enunciate properly.

[Surfer]

What do you think they are looking at in this picture? The set up in this picture makes me think there is a person sitting in a chair strapped down that they are about to start experimenting on with this large machine. In the comics was there any notable experimentations with Red Skull or Arnim Zola, except for of course Arnim Zola's experimentation on himself?

http://cdn.superherohype.com/assets/components/com_joomgallery/img_originals/captain_america_4979/captain_america_20101101_1309847376.jpg


Surfer

[lixdexia]

there are considerable experiments, like the white dust. i think they're messing around with some asgardian rune or something, searching for clues as to the locations of odin's treasures

[C. Lee]

You guys should check out an aussie film called "The Interview" that Hugo starred in. You get to see some very good acting from this guy.

Absolutely...saw it years ago, been looking for a copy since. He was excellent in that.

[kedrell]

there are considerable experiments, like the white dust. i think they're messing around with some asgardian rune or something, searching for clues as to the locations of odin's treasures

That's my guess as well.

[Tissues]

I can only assume Red Skull is working on a similar device to this based on Johnston's previous work.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/121/image3sf.jpg

[kedrell]

I bet he's messin' with the cosmic cube.

[GhostPoet]

he's messing around with the cube and it goes all Raiders on him.

[Project862006]

looking at hugo photo he was really perfect casting he looks like the red skull even w/o make up he has a very skeleton like face structure lol

[sabetoonth]

there are considerable experiments, like the white dust. i think they're messing around with some asgardian rune or something, searching for clues as to the locations of odin's treasures
i thought it was the Red Dust?

[Rock Sexton]

looking at hugo photo he was really perfect casting he looks like the red skull even w/o make up he has a very skeleton like face structure lol

That's why it'll work perfectly when they add the prosthetics.

[Silvermoth]

I can only assume Red Skull is working on a similar device to this based on Johnston's previous work.



Honey, I shrunk the Avengers! Brought to you by Disney :awesome:

[wobbly]

he conveyed enough emotion behind a mask in V

I don't think V is really an apt comparison: In V his 'real' face is entirely hidden behind the smiling Guy Fawkes mask, so it's the audiences imagination (constantly wondering what he really looks like) working with Weaving's voice and body language (and the performance of the other actors) that helps convey the emotion in his scenes.

If you give the Red Skull such a literal skull appearance (basically remove all the muscle and tendons from the face and just cover a skull with red skin as in that pic) you leave the audience's imagination little to nothing to work with. That is his real face, so there's nothing to wonder about.

Then there's the practical side to that look. Talking ,eating and drinking, would all be very problematic for someone unfortunate enough to wind up like that.

[Raiden]

Absolutely...saw it years ago, been looking for a copy since. He was excellent in that.

I remember Naomi Watts in that audition scene in Mulholland Dr...she was incredible in that as well. I'm glad that Weaving is the Red Skull, but I hope they won't restrict his facial expression after they applied the prosthetic on his face.

[SuperFerret]

That doesn't make it any less ludicrous.

Perhaps, but that's more than enough of a reason for it to go that way.