suggestion that's going to get my lynched

[3atman]

Ok, so I'm a big CM Punk fan, CM Punk is a big comic book fan. He said if there is any character he'd beat the crap out of, it'd be Captain America because of the super serum (CM Punk is straight edge). Now, I actually agree with this. The serum annoys me. We live in an era where all our heroes are on steroids. The serum is basically steroids....on steroids.

Should they change it up so that either A) he doesn't even take the super serum but gets to be a super soldier through hard work or B) he's forced, like literally held down and forced, beaten up, etc to take the serum.

Or do you think it's ok that Captain America uses a performance enhancer?

[Ace of Knaves]

The American government has been experimenting on their troops for years anyway.

The super soldier serum is just an experiemnt that didn't go wrong. It's not really roids.

[UnkillableMick]

I think that's a hilarious post. Unless you're being serious. Then it's kinda silly.

[x-fan]

The super serum is more like a DNA enhancer since it does more than make Steve stronger, it increases his speed and endurance above that of the most advanced athlete. plus this will be a period peice, they didn't even know what steriods were back then, I don't think.

[3atman]

I don't care when it's set. He's using artificial means to accomplish his goal. Maybe it's just a part of the character I don't like, but even if it is an experiment, I don't care. He's basically using a perfomance enhancing drug to become a better athlete/soldier. Which is kinda what American athletes and heroes are known for, so I guess it fits.

Also, X-Fan, I don't think you understand steroids. They too enhance your speed, endurance, just about everything. HGH and steroids in high doses alters your DNA, Cap is basically on a super steroid.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

He's not hitting home runs, he's stomping Nazis. You got a problem with that?

[ChickenScratch]

What the hell is CM Punk?

[x-fan]

Steve just wanted to serve his country, he was unable to join the service for health issues. he volunteered for an experiment by the government, because it was the only way he could serve jis country.He wasn't trying to score touchdowns or hit home runs, he wanted to serve the country he loved, with the serum all of his health issues were cured and he was improved, over night. He didn't have to workout, run many laps practice drills over and over to improve it was overnight.

[SuperFerret]

Drugs are bad, mmkay?*



































*Unless they give you super powers. It's a lot like radiation that way.

[BrlntDsgse]

I think you're overthinking it a bit, it's just a sci-fi trapping of the story. Yeah, it bears some similarities to what real-life steroids do, but it was never intended to be a parallell to or endorsement of steroids. And besides, steroids aren't INHERENTLY evil, just their usage as an unfair advantage in sporting competitions. As a matter of fact, I'd bet any amount of money that if tomorrow there were some new steroid-like substance that had ZERO negative side effects to your health and personality (which is kinda what the serum is) that within 5 to 10 years it's usage would be totally common and standard for most major pro sports AND the military.

[Ipodman]

Might as well cut out all the drinking in Iron man.. :)

[FaT_tONle]

Fine, you have the doctor testing this **** on animal subjects. Rogers signs a non-disclosure agreement without reading the fine print, and a branch of the military illegally doses him and covers up the identity and origins of how this freak of nature came about. Write in Rogers as a guy with little to no family ties so people won't question him. Account for a memory loss as far as how he obtained his new abilities. That way it is not voluntary by any stretch.

[x-fan]

not bad FAT but I'd leave him his memory, and make it so he sees the results a s a blessing that now he can serve in the war effort at last, he didn't go in looking to be(a steriod user) just for some undisclosed test.

[roach]

Hey I got an idea...lets not do Captain America and just make up another character. The SSS is a part of Captain America...if you take away the aspect where he volunteered then its not Cap.
While we are at it lets take the cigarette away from Wolverine, Alcohol and loose women away from Stark??? And since fighting is bad lets just have these guys play chess against each other....sheesh dont over think it guys

[I SEE SPIDEY]

The amount of ridiculously pointless threads never ceases to amaze me.

[Parker Wayne]

Hey I got an idea...lets not do Captain America and just make up another character. The SSS is a part of Captain America...if you take away the aspect where he volunteered then its not Cap.
While we are at it lets take the cigarette away from Wolverine, Alcohol and loose women away from Stark??? And since fighting is bad lets just have these guys play chess against each other....sheesh dont over think it guys

This.

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1233928590_citizen%20kane%20clapping.gif

[3atman]

I don't think this is a pointless thread, I think it's interesting. It's certainly not as pointless as the dozen "which American Eagle model do you want to play this role that's not going to get chosen and talk in circles with each other" threads.

The guy who said you may as well take alcohol out of Iron Man, no, because Iron Man made the suit through his own intelligence. Hulk is a scientist who was "superheroed" by accident, Spider-Man was a lovable loser type of kid who by chance got bit by a Spider. Batman is a badass hell bent on justice. Superman was born with God-like power and he choses to save 1 city (kinda stupid too). Captian America is a wimpy runt who can't hack it so he takes a serum, and, as someone else said, OVERNIGHT becomes a super solider.

You can say it's because he wanted to serve his country. However, I would like to serve the Atlanta Braves, should I take HGH to do so? Or should I work my tail off to do it?

I just have a problem with Steve's powers not being made through hard work or accident, but by choice. It's kinda how all the old disney movies annoy me with "if you're a beautiful girl all you have to do is want something really REALLY bad and it'll happen" a problem Princess and the Frog address, but I digress. Cap is kinda like saying "if you aren't able to do something, take short cuts".

I don't actually think any of this will happen or even should. Just food for thought. Maybe, in some ironic or tragic, or tragically ironic way Captain America really IS Captain America. A guy who wanted success so bad (in his case, fighting for his country) that he took something made my scientists instead of spending the rest of his life working for it. A guy who is probably a really good guy with good intentions and maybe misjudged (by me).

BTW, I think the flack steroids get is crap considering they aren't actually that dangerous and there are loads of other performance enhancers that no one talks about.

[mrsjohnnystorm]

double post.

[mrsjohnnystorm]

The thing that makes Captain America different from any other person that the army would choose, and different from those Disney princess who lived happily ever after, or any other superhero for that matter, is that Steve Rogers has a pure heart and completely altruistic. He WANTS to join the army because he believes he can fight the war, but the only thing that's keeping him from it is his body.

For me, I don't think the Super Soldier Serum nor Caps 260 pounds are the basis of his powers. I think it's his leadership and his ability to breakdown a successful strategic and tactical plan that makes his powers.

Also, steroids are performance enhancers that allows you to pack more weight or enhances your performance. If you're skinny like Steve pre-serum and he takes steroids, he still needs to bulk up and lift those weights. (and any athlete, or bodybuilders would know that). But the SSS completely bulks you up, and it's only a one-time process, that means it doesn't get you addicted or anything. Maybe that's why steroids never really crossed my mind when I thought of the SSS -- so I guess audiences wouldn't see the parallel either.

[Webhead2006]

3atman, i dont think that would go over well. now sure i am against drugs and all that myself. but we dont need to make changes that doesnt need to be chaged for the film.

[roach]

No one seemed to have an issue with it in TIH...and yes this is a pointless thread..trying to change the basic story of the character because a wrestler has an issue with it....
So the only good way to get powers is thru hard work or an accident????
What about mutants or Superman????? Are you against Captain Marvel who seems to get a mystical shot of roids when he says Shazam?????

[HUMANIMAL]

i think taking this serum was very naive from steve and i see it as an accident. he wasnt knowing exactly what this changes may bring. its like in spiderman: with great powers comes a lot of responsibility. he is the opposite of a villain, not using power to destroy and conquer but to protect and to serve:-) i mean a jerk taking roids to achieve his goals may still remain a jerk. i think its about the power into the right hands, very american after all...and i'm sure as well that they will show this struggle int the movie of steve trying to fit in, believing in technology and becoming a freak with superpowers which no one around him has, till he sees that it isnt the power of the serum but his attitude and his heart that makes him a hero after all.

[roach]

How is he naive????
Why wouldnt the government tell him whats going and whats going to happen to him???
It takes away the fundamental aspect of Cap. I cant imagine that someone who would become the greatest tactician in the comic universe would be too naive to know what the project was about.
Why would you go out and fight the Nazis if the country you were trying to help pulled a fast one on you?

[marcvader]

First of all no amount of excercise or hard work was going to get him in the army, his health and size did not meet the requirements. Second, the experiment could have fatal results. His willingness to do it for his country showed bravery, heart, and determination. Hardly a cheater i think.

[Bruce Malone]

The super serum is the ultimate PED. There's no way around it however in the grand scheme of comics is just one other way a hero got his powers.

[Katsuro]

The serum didn't give him his great commanding/leadership abilities. That was all him. Tony Stark gets his power from a suit of armor he wears, Steve Rogers gets it from a serum he takes. What's the difference? And if you mention that Tony invented the armor, then what about War Machine? Hell, how's it any different than Spider-Man, really? Because he didn't choose it like Cap did? So? Steve accepted the dangers in trying this experimental drug, knowing he could use it to help people. That's admirable.

Also, steroids are bad because of their negative side effects (the serum seems to have none), and that they offer an unfair advantage in a competition. Superheroics aren't a competition, they're about saving people. No one's gonna tell Cap he cant save people because he didn't get his powers ethically.

[not_a_victim]

Rogers didn't take the serum to add inches to his biceps, to hit more home runs, or improve his 100 meter time. He did it to stop the Nazis and Japanese in WWII.
Little bit of a difference there.

[not_a_victim]

I don't care when it's set. He's using artificial means to accomplish his goal. Maybe it's just a part of the character I don't like, but even if it is an experiment, I don't care. He's basically using a perfomance enhancing drug to become a better athlete/soldier. Which is kinda what American athletes and heroes are known for, so I guess it fits.

Also, X-Fan, I don't think you understand steroids. They too enhance your speed, endurance, just about everything. HGH and steroids in high doses alters your DNA, Cap is basically on a super steroid.

So we should throw bullets at bad guys instead of shooting them out of guns?
'cause it would be unfair to use arificial means to get a round to travel 1184 fps...

[Anubis]

Ugh, wrestlers.

[Ace of Knaves]

Oh so that's who CM Punk is? A wrasler? And people honestly think he doesn't do roids? :funny: Get the fugg outta here! All of them are on the roids.

[not_a_victim]

Oh so that's who CM Punk is? A wrasler? And people honestly think he doesn't do roids? :funny: Get the fugg outta here! All of them are on the roids.

Actually, he doesn't, and it's no joke.
It's pretty easy to tell, too, as he may be the scawniest rassler I have ever seen.

[Ace of Knaves]

haha yea i take that back, i just checked out some pics of him.

[HUMANIMAL]

How is he naive????
Why wouldnt the government tell him whats going and whats going to happen to him???
It takes away the fundamental aspect of Cap. I cant imagine that someone who would become the greatest tactician in the comic universe would be too naive to know what the project was about.
Why would you go out and fight the Nazis if the country you were trying to help pulled a fast one on you?

naive in the sense of what the consequences are after the transformation. being so strong isnt easy in terms of responsibility i think.

[Anubis]

He wasn't that strong.

[HUMANIMAL]

yeah not god like but they all look up to him and see him as a sort of a saviour.

[HUMANIMAL]

.....

[Kal El Vis]

You can't take a "today" rational and attempt to ret-con out something so fundamental to the character that it has been there for 70 years.

[3atman]

Oh so that's who CM Punk is? A wrasler? And people honestly think he doesn't do roids? :funny: Get the fugg outta here! All of them are on the roids.

Wow you're ignorant. That's not an insult, that's an abjective. I'm honestly offended. I know many wrestlers, I've been in a ring. What they do is very difficult, probably the hardest performance art. Most of them AREN'T on steroids, just a few that the media polarizes. You go to a MLB or NFL locker room and you'll find more roids there. Don't disrespect pro wrestlers, especially not coming from a comic guy like yourself. Both industries are looked down on in different ways, and up until about 7 years ago, wrestling fans and wrestlers had more respect. Try not to stereotype about stuff you know nothing about. This isn't the 80s or 90s, wrestlers are average sized people. CM Punk isn't scrawney, he's about 6'1" 210 in real life, that's a good size. He's a huge comic book fan and pays tribute to comics, he even has a GI Joe Cobra tatoo. Pro wrestling and comic books are very much alike. I'm really REALLY offended by what you said.

The whole point of my thread was to just generate discussion. Discussion that provokes thought, not just "this is what I want the movie to be about" but a discussion about something deeper.

[Gilpesh]

Try not to stereotype about stuff you know nothing about.
Then you should probably stop comparing idiots taking steroids for themselves and Captain America taking a risky serum to help his country. Especially as you're just listening to some wrestler who is talking out of his ass.

[roach]

Wow you're ignorant. That's not an insult, that's an abjective. I'm honestly offended. I know many wrestlers, I've been in a ring. What they do is very difficult, probably the hardest performance art. Most of them AREN'T on steroids, just a few that the media polarizes. You go to a MLB or NFL locker room and you'll find more roids there. Don't disrespect pro wrestlers, especially not coming from a comic guy like yourself. Both industries are looked down on in different ways, and up until about 7 years ago, wrestling fans and wrestlers had more respect.
I dont think this is a true assessment. I dont think westlers or fans had respect

Try not to stereotype about stuff you know nothing about. This isn't the 80s or 90s, wrestlers are average sized people. CM Punk isn't scrawney, he's about 6'1" 210 in real life, that's a good size. He's a huge comic book fan and pays tribute to comics, he even has a GI Joe Cobra tatoo. Pro wrestling and comic books are very much alike. I'm really REALLY offended by what you said.

The whole point of my thread was to just generate discussion. Discussion that provokes thought, not just "this is what I want the movie to be about" but a discussion about something deeper.

:whatever:

[3atman]

I know they didn't, and neither did comic book movies or comic book fans. The only people who respect wrestlers are other wrestlers, or pro athletes who have been in a ring and know how much it hurts.

Then you should probably stop comparing idiots taking steroids for themselves and Captain Americahttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_bing.gif (http://forums.superherohype.com/#) taking a risky serum to help his country. Especially as you're just listening to some wrestler who is talking out of his ass.
He wasn't talking out his ass, he probably knows more about comics than you do. His character is a guy (CM Punk) who doesn't do drugs of any kind, or alcohol, or promiscuous sex, he's straight edge. So when asked if there was any comic hero he would beat up (he's a bad guy), he said it'd be Captain America because of the SSS. I should post the article so you can get a better understanding of where Punk is coming from.

My whole point though, was simply to stir up deeper thought other than who's posts you're going to ingore and just post your own ideas for the movie, watch them get ignored, then post more of your own and watch the cycle continue. These boards have been boring for a while and I thought it was something interesting to think about. A guy who, even though his intentions were good, didn't really work for his ability. Then again, I hate Superman, Spider-Man, and just about every other hero who just happens to get powers.

[Gilpesh]

He wasn't talking out his ass, he probably knows more about comics than you do.
He's also probably been hit in the head more times than normal people have so him being a bit slow is to be expected.

His character is a guy (CM Punk) who doesn't do drugs of any kind, or alcohol, or promiscuous sex, he's straight edge.
Thank you. I was the one person in the entire world that had never heard the term 'straight edge' before and needed it explained to me.

So when asked if there was any comic hero he would beat up (he's a bad guy), he said it'd be Captain America because of the SSS. I should post the article so you can get a better understanding of where Punk is coming from.
He's probably coming from the land of foot-in-mouthistan.

My whole point though, was simply to stir up deeper thought
You want to stir up deeper thought by completely missing the point of what makes Captain America different than some juiced up wrestler? That's rich.

[Ace of Knaves]

Exactly.

3atman you call me ignorant, it seems you are pretty ignorant of the character of Cap.

[Punisher_MAX]

Ok, so I'm a big CM Punk fan, CM Punk is a big comic book fan. He said if there is any character he'd beat the crap out of, it'd be Captain America because of the super serum (CM Punk is straight edge). Now, I actually agree with this. The serum annoys me. We live in an era where all our heroes are on steroids. The serum is basically steroids....on steroids.

Should they change it up so that either A) he doesn't even take the super serum but gets to be a super soldier through hard work or B) he's forced, like literally held down and forced, beaten up, etc to take the serum.

Or do you think it's ok that Captain America uses a performance enhancer?

i know im probably being a dick saying this but id LOVE to see him actually try and kick Cap's ass if he existed. it would be the fastest, albeit funniest, fight in history.

[Anubis]

yeah not god like but they all look up to him and see him as a sort of a saviour.

That's because of his personality.

[HUMANIMAL]

so, you got my point after all:hehe:

[jab1118]

You can say it's because he wanted to serve his country. However, I would like to serve the Atlanta Braves, should I take HGH to do so? Or should I work my tail off to do it?
If you taking HGH to serve the Atlanta braves could help end the war in the middle east and potentially save millions of lives then I say yes shoot up. If as soon as Steve became a super soldier he signed a contract with the Yankees and broke the babes home run record you might have a point here


Wow you're ignorant. That's not an insult, that's an abjective. I'm honestly offended. I know many wrestlers, I've been in a ring. What they do is very difficult, probably the hardest performance art. Most of them AREN'T on steroids, just a few that the media polarizes. You go to a MLB or NFL locker room and you'll find more roids there.

Unless on top of aparently knowing so much about the steroid use of wrestlers you are also a baseball and football insider that's a pretty ignorent statement too. The reason we get more names from those sports is just that they are sports and our regulated to keep things fair. Nobody really cares if an actor gets an edge over another actor because the outcome is decided already


His character is a guy (CM Punk) who doesn't do drugs of any kind, or alcohol, or promiscuous sex, he's straight edge.

Ugh has there ever been a lamer sounding character then this dude

[Piz]

He's not hitting home runs, he's stomping Nazis. You got a problem with that?

Haha good point! :D

What the hell is CM Punk?

He's a wrestler for the WWE

[jacross]

I think some of the analogies used in this debate are not entirely apt.

Firstly, comparing Steve Rogers super serum to say using steroids for the Atlanta Braves is a false analogy and it is a false analogy precisely because the Atlanta Braves play in a league where steroid use is not allowed.

There is a difference between using something performance enhancing for your own agenda, and using a performance enhancing substance when you have voluntarily agreed to participate in an organisation where that is not allowed. Steroid cheats in sports are not bad people because they've taken steroids. They are bad people because they voluntarily agreed to play that sport in a league with certain rules, and they have then broken those rules.

Compare that to Steve Rogers who took the super soldier serum to fight in a war. Not exactly the same thing. In fact it is not even close to the same thing.

People have also suggested that Steve Rogers is somehow lesser because he 'didn't have to work for it'. I think there are two points which go a far way to dispelling that viewpoint. Firstly, from my reading at least, Steve has to exercise constantly and strenuously to maintain his level of physical perfection. It is not as if he took a magical pill and has that strength, speed, etc for the rest of his life without having to do anything.

Secondly, I think it is important to remember that Steve was a very sickly individual. The story has been told a number of times with changes however at the very least, Steve was extremely skinny and frail. It's fair to say that his problem was medical at the very least.

At the end of the day, for me, while working for something is a benefit of itself, it is a persons actions and character that I judge someone on. Steve Rogers cheated nobody, he broke no promises. Every day of his life he has used the gifts he received to fight for freedom and help others. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that story in any way.

To be honest, if there was a pill that granted me perfect speed, strength, etc I would definitely take it. And I would use it for good. And it is the using it for good which is the thing that should be judged.

As an aside, I don't want people to have the wrong idea about steroids. There is a misconception that you can take steroids and basically slack off and get buff and strong and fast. Steroid users are not lazy and if you took steroids and did nothing, nothing would happen. In fact one of the primary benefits of steroids (particularly for people who already have pushed their bodies to that upper threshold) is the increased recovery capacity. This allows for greater volume and intensity which allows you to achieve that next level.

Personally I have nothing against people who use steroids for whatever reason, as long as they are not using it in breach of rules of a sporting organisation that they of their own free will decided to play in. Whether they use it to decrease injury recovery time, to increase speed or strength, or simply to get bigger, I have no problem with that and I don't think less of them. I simply hope they use steroids responsibly and with proper advice and protocols. Unfortunately in jurisdictions where steroids are (basically) illegal, people use them in ignorance and incorrectly, leading to significant side effects, both temporary and permanently.

Regarding CM Punk and straight edge, his attitude is an attitude that was partly why I left the movement. I used to be straight edge but it seemed to have gone from a principle where you don't wreck your body (through drug and alcohol abuse etc) to a weird rigid cult where you can't consume a gram of caffeine and if you do you are evil. It's gone from being healthy, to following cult rules. It is why Ian Mackaye, the singer of Minor Threat, and widely credited for starting Straight Edge, eventually abandoned the movement.

Out of all the super heroes, CM Punk would bash (LOL) Captain America because he was a frail, sickly, young man who wanted to defend his country, and took a serum to help him do so much good.

Straight edge is a joke.

NB: No I'm not a steroid user, however I certainly won't rule out use in the future IF I have a good reason to do so.

[jacross]

As for artificial means, why is that bad?

If steroid use is artificial because we didn't naturally produce it, then how much artificial means do we use every day to achieve our ends? All of medicine that doesn't involve 'well maybe you can wait it out' is pretty much artificial.

[mrsjohnnystorm]

Also, Steroids are present in many medication. Steroids is actually the primary ingredient in Asthma inhalers -- I'm sure CM Punk wouldn't turn on someone who has a serious case of Asthma would he?

But all good points there jacross, and I agree, steroids are only bad if you join a competition and take steroids (because then you have a advantage over everyone else, and totally ruins the sample size).

[NEXUS 6]

Okay I didn't sort through all three pages, but could you imagine that guy actually trying to beat up Captain America. That fight would last all of two and a half seconds. :awesome:

[mrsjohnnystorm]

Well before CM Punk fights Captain America, I'll at least want see him try to beat the existing Captain America, Randy Couture. I highly doubt CM Punk would last a round in the ring with Randy.

[Keyser Soze]

First, I'll preface by saying I don't agree at all with 3atman's assertion that Captain America is no better than an athlete taking steroids. Yes, he has superthuman strength, speed, and endurance. But it's the spirit and the heart of Captain America that sets him apart so many other guys in the Marvel Universe who are stronger or faster. Being the ultimate athlete is only one small part of the Cap equation. Steve Rogers was Captain America long before he put on the mask, and long before he even got his powers.

But that said, a lot of folk here have been total jerks about disagreeing. Attacking 3atman, attacking his thread, attacking CM Punk, and attacking pro wrestling and pro wrestling fans. What, because 3atman was asking you to think? 3atman has a point - comic books and wrestling actually have a lot in common, in that both are marginalised forms of entertainment, bastard artforms, if you will. Both wrestling and superheroes are about good VS evil on a larger-than-life, highly stylised scale, complete with colorful characters and costumes. And 3atman is right. In the 90s, when Batman and Robin killed the superhero movie and Marvel was going bankrupt, the trendy thing to watch on TV was pro wrestling. Now in the 00s, wrestling is a laughing stock and comic book movies are big money. Wrestling fans and comic fans alike get bashed by enough people without them starting to bash each other.

As for CM Punk himself, he's being unfairly villified here. It's not like he was all like "I hate Captain America!" In the interview, he talked about how much he loves Ed Brubaker's Captain America. And in the context of the question, he was talking about, if he was a comic book supervillain, who would he best matches against, and he was saying hypothetically, it might be interesting to have a straight edge bad guy call out Captain America as a steroid abuser.

[Ace of Knaves]

The difference between wrestling and comic books is that comic books have actual good stories you can get emotionally invested in. Same with the characters.

Pro wrestling is just soap opera melodrama crap on steroids.

I'm not saying people can't like it or are lesser people for liking it.

But 3atman's argument is heavily flawed. Undeniable.

There is a difference between a wrestler taking roids just to look good and be strong.

And a guy like Steve Rogers taking roids to become the ultimate soldier and save lives and defeat genuine bad guys and not pantomime villains.

[Keyser Soze]

The difference between wrestling and comic books is that comic books have actual good stories you can get emotionally invested in. Same with the characters.

Pro wrestling is just soap opera melodrama crap on steroids.

I'm not saying people can't like it or are lesser people for liking it.

But 3atman's argument is heavily flawed. Undeniable.

There is a difference between a wrestler taking roids just to look good and be strong.

And a guy like Steve Rogers taking roids to become the ultimate soldier and save lives and defeat genuine bad guys and not pantomime villains.

Oh, indeed, much of pro wrestling these days is crap. But in it's time, pro wrestling too has had great stories and made for enthralling television. Much like there were lengthy periods where much of what was going on in mainstream comics at least was mind-meltingly awful, but now there's a whole lot of quality storytelling in place.

[Parker Wayne]

Oh, indeed, much of pro wrestling these days is crap. But in it's time, pro wrestling too has had great stories and made for enthralling television. Much like there were lengthy periods where much of what was going on in mainstream comics at least was mind-meltingly awful, but now there's a whole lot of quality storytelling in place.

For example, the Attitude Era :csad:

Anyway, this argument about Captain America and comparing the SSS to steroids is severly flawed and imo just plain stupid.

[jacross]

As for CM Punk himself, he's being unfairly villified here. It's not like he was all like "I hate Captain America!" In the interview, he talked about how much he loves Ed Brubaker's Captain America. And in the context of the question, he was talking about, if he was a comic book supervillain, who would he best matches against, and he was saying hypothetically, it might be interesting to have a straight edge bad guy call out Captain America as a steroid abuser.

I retract the negative comments I made about CM Punk. I actually find him to be a compelling character.

For example, the Attitude Era :csad:


That was a brilliant couple of years. WWE has had some good times since then but nothing that has reached the Attitude era.

[weezerspider]

I think its a bit of a stretch to think CA:TFA is going to be a "pro-roids" film or something. This kinda thing is in movies all of the time. Plus, he isn't cheating in a sport, he's doing it to help the world. He wants to serve his country and fight Nazis. I don't think you would complain if a firefighter took a non-harmful drug(not roids cuz it can mess you up) to help save more people's lives. He's doing it for good reason. If he's cheating anything, its death.

[Keyser Soze]

I think it's more like taking a magic potion than taking steroids.

[That-Guy]

"He's been 'roiding for years and so have his peers, he's Captain America!"

[Webhead2006]

totally on the wrestling front the attitude era was my fav time for wwf. Nowadays its just far to censored and some storylines and all that havent been that great. i still watch it today to keep up on wrestlers i like that are still around.

[Parker Wayne]

I stopped watching September of last year. From what I heard, they took out chairshots to the head along with other things. WTF!

[SpiderByte]

Lock, please?

[roach]

Lock, please?

Nooooo he's no longer John Locke he's the smoke monster

[jimbo 007]

I'm willing to bet when the movie is released there will be alot of people in the media compairing the SSS to steroids. There'll more than likely even be people complaining that the movie and the SSS will promote steroid use to young kids. I just hope that the cast and crew are ready for these questions so they can shut them down.

And really the SSS is more than just an injection of drugs. You can't forget about the Vita-Rays. There's no steroid that I know of that requires a dose of radiation. So in my opinion the SSS is much more than just a steroid.

[roach]

no one had issues in TIH

[3atman]

All you guys saying that Cap is better than an athlete taking roids because he's doing it for his country I disagree with. A while back, someone said they'd be ok with me taking HGH and roids and then go fight in Iraq as opposed to play for the Atlanta Braves.

HOWEVER. I personally think it's more noble to take performance enhancers to ensure that your family NEVER has to work again (as in, bigger contracts) than doing the physical bidding for politicians. If Cap REALLY wanted to help America, he'd have worked his arse off and became President and diplomatically solved all our problems.

No, I don't have a problem with Hulk, that was an accident.

BTW I'm really not all that opposed to roid use. If MLB players wanna use them or NFL players wanna use them I say use them. Hitting a home run you otherwise wouldn't have hit is no different than using cortisone (another roid) to play when you otherwise wouldn't have. Or Tiger Woods getting Lasik surgery to make his vision better than 20/20 in a sport where depth perception is key. ALL I'm saying at this point is that Captain America really IS the American Hero of today. He's just like Schwartzenegger, Stallone, all the Pro wrestlers, MMA fighters, Boxers, olympians, and other pro athletes who have used enhancers. He really is the most American of super heroes. He's bigger, badder, (not natural) and he'll kick your ass. He is Captain America.

[roach]

it was an accident when the stuck needles into Blonsky???

[Compi716]

All you guys saying that Cap is better than an athlete taking roids because he's doing it for his country I disagree with. A while back, someone said they'd be ok with me taking HGH and roids and then go fight in Iraq as opposed to play for the Atlanta Braves.

HOWEVER. I personally think it's more noble to take performance enhancers to ensure that your family NEVER has to work again (as in, bigger contracts) than doing the physical bidding for politicians. If Cap REALLY wanted to help America, he'd have worked his arse off and became President and diplomatically solved all our problems.

No, I don't have a problem with Hulk, that was an accident.

BTW I'm really not all that opposed to roid use. If MLB players wanna use them or NFL players wanna use them I say use them. Hitting a home run you otherwise wouldn't have hit is no different than using cortisone (another roid) to play when you otherwise wouldn't have. Or Tiger Woods getting Lasik surgery to make his vision better than 20/20 in a sport where depth perception is key. ALL I'm saying at this point is that Captain America really IS the American Hero of today. He's just like Schwartzenegger, Stallone, all the Pro wrestlers, MMA fighters, Boxers, olympians, and other pro athletes who have used enhancers. He really is the most American of super heroes. He's bigger, badder, (not natural) and he'll kick your ass. He is Captain America.
Okay, I've sat out this discussion long enough.

To say, to even suggest that Cap's origin be changed to something more "achievable" is ridiculous. Captain America is a product of science. He's a man so dedicated to fighting for what he believes in that he was willing to do anything necessary.

Cap also represents the boyhood dream. We all want to be heroes, and Steve Rogers found a way how. He "magically" became a super-being overnight, and that's what makes him special. Yes, he took a steroid. So freaking what? He wouldn't be Captain America otherwise.

Batman trains. Iron Man builds things. Captain America was a transformation. That's what makes him unique.

[Gilpesh]

HOWEVER. I personally think it's more noble to take performance enhancers to ensure that your family NEVER has to work again (as in, bigger contracts) than doing the physical bidding for politicians. If Cap REALLY wanted to help America, he'd have worked his arse off and became President and diplomatically solved all our problems.
Someone needs to loosen the straps on their helmet.

You're saying that some roidhead baseball player is better than Cap? Yeah. My first comment stands. Especially as you think what Cap is doing is 'physical bidding for politicians'... so were you not allowed to read comics during the past decade where Cap FOUGHT THE GOVERNMENT because the government was turning their back on what makes America, America.

[3atman]

I don't want to change the origin. I just would like someone else besides me to realize that Captain America is just like every other American hero. Enhanced.

And please, for the love of God, stop saying "well in a fight CM PUnk wouldn't beat Randy Couture" because he's a pro wrestler, not trained to fight, trained to get his ass beat and not die. Also stop "I'd like to see him fight Captain America" they're both fictional characters, the winner would be whoever is writing/booking.

No, I admit, I haven't read a lot of Captain comics, I need to. I'm not saying cap is a bad guy, just saying, he is Arnodl Schwartzenegger, he is a sports star, he is a typical American hero.

[3atman]

The difference between wrestling and comic books is that comic books have actual good stories you can get emotionally invested in. Same with the characters.

Pro wrestling is just soap (http://forums.superherohype.com/#) opera melodrama crap on steroids.

I'm not saying people can't like it or are lesser people for liking it.

But 3atman's argument is heavily flawed. Undeniable.

There is a difference between a wrestler taking roids just to look good and be strong.

And a guy like Steve Rogers taking roids to become the ultimate soldier and save lives and defeat genuine bad guys and not pantomime villains.

LOL GENUINE BAD GUYS. So....people drawn are "real villains" but guys like the Iron Shiek who people tried to fight (in real life) because of a character he played is less real of a villain? It's ALL FAKE. Comic books, pro wrestling, it's all larger than life fake stories. Everything you listed is OPINION "the difference is comics actually tell good stories" that's an OPINION. What I say is FACTS. FACT, comic books are not real, Captain America is not real, just like CM Punk doesn't really hate Undertaker or rey Mysterio (the bumps really do hurt, trust me, I was in a hospital for a bump and nearly died, but that's another story). They both have their great stories and their awful stories. Both are misjudged by some and overrated by others. Comic books and pro wrestling are very VERY similar. Watch Lucha Libre for the imagery similarities, puroresu (Japanese) for the action similarities, and American mainstream wrestling for some story similarties.

You guys are adding too much opinion to your argument and it's hilarious. I have used facts. FACT, Steve is enhanced, his motives being good or bad, better or worse is OPINION. FACT, schwartzenegger and baseball players, football players, other athletes and action heroes ALSO are enhanced. If that's worse or better than Cap is opinion. I'm just drawing the similarities.


Cap also represents the boyhood dream. We all want to be heroes, and Steve Rogers found a way how. He "magically" became a super-being overnight, and that's what makes him special. Yes, he took a steroid. So freaking what? He wouldn't be Captain America otherwise.

Thank you, you get it. You understand that Cap is enhanced and it isn't a big deal, it just makes him that much more American. Doing whatever it takes to be the best and what's necessary.

[esloan]

Thank you, you get it. You understand that Cap is enhanced and it isn't a big deal, it just makes him that much more American. Doing whatever it takes to be the best and what's necessary.

I think you, and many others in this thread, are missing the single thing that differentiates Captain America and the Super Soldier Serum from an athlete and steroids. Quite simply; side effects.

Steroids are not banned simply because they give a competitive edge. They are banned because they are dangerous. They cause a myriad of health problems, many fatal, as well as a number of psychological effects.

The Super Soldier Serum is not analogous to steroids. Matter of fact, a close analogy would be the "knock-off" Super Serum that Blonsky took in The Incredible Hulk. It made him powerful but had psychological side effects.

The Super Soldier Serum formula that Cap took had no side effects. It was almost singular in that fact. All the other variants had many harmful side-effects, which was one of the reasons the Super Soldier program was shut down. The original scientist who perfected the formula was shot and killed and, unfortunately, had most of the process of the serum's creation devoted only to memory. Thus the secret of its creation was lost.

Back on point, this is what makes Cap's serum different from steroids, over and above the differences in Cap's noble motivations and an athlete's monetary motivations. The lack of harmful side-effects are what make the Super Soldier Serum a positive thing and not a negative one.

If there existed a Serum like this, it would be encouraged and not banned like steroids. It would be a positive thing and not frowned upon. However, no such serum exists and steroids is a poor, poor substitute. :woot:

[Bubonic]

doublepost

[Bubonic]

Even if you took HGH you wouldn't make it into professional baseball.

He signed up to be a soldier and was manipulated into the program, if he somehow found something like the SSS on the street and took it with knowledge of what it did so that he could be accepted into the army, then I'd follow your logic.

Straight-edge people are complete self-righteous jerkoffs.

Also keep in mind that the hero Steve became was even more reliant on the person he was within then the physical specimen he became thereafter. He also had to learn the skills he acquired, they didn't upload martial arts and other tactics into his brain like in the Matrix.

[3atman]

I think you, and many others in this thread, are missing the single thing that differentiates Captain America and the Super Soldier Serum from an athlete and steroids. Quite simply; side effects.

Steroids are not banned simply because they give a competitive edge. They are banned because they are dangerous. They cause a myriad of health problems, many fatal, as well as a number of psychological effects.

The Super Soldier Serum is not analogous to steroids. Matter of fact, a close analogy would be the "knock-off" Super Serum that Blonsky took in The Incredible Hulk. It made him powerful but had psychological side effects.

The Super Soldier Serum formula that Cap took had no side effects. It was almost singular in that fact. All the other variants had many harmful side-effects, which was one of the reasons the Super Soldier program was shut down. The original scientist who perfected the formula was shot and killed and, unfortunately, had most of the process of the serum's creation devoted only to memory. Thus the secret of its creation was lost.

Back on point, this is what makes Cap's serum different from steroids, over and above the differences in Cap's noble motivations and an athlete's monetary motivations. The lack of harmful side-effects are what make the Super Soldier Serum a positive thing and not a negative one.

If there existed a Serum like this, it would be encouraged and not banned like steroids. It would be a positive thing and not frowned upon. However, no such serum exists and steroids is a poor, poor substitute. :woot:

Actually, steroids aren't that dangerous if taken right. The danger of steroids is that it's easily abused. If you are rich like a MLB player, you can afford doctors to keep it safe. More people go to the emergency room a year due to Vitamin C problems than steroids. The reason why it's such a hot topic in the media is because it's sexy. It's easy to see roid use because guys get bigger and when abused the problems are awful. If they wanted to make it a level playing field, they'd outlaw painkillers too that make you able to play when you otherwise wouldn't and they wouldn't have allowed Tiger Woods' lasik surgery that gave him better than 20/20 in a sport that relies on depth perception a lot. The media, has made this, much like the economy, a bigger deal than it is.

Bottom line is that instead of doing something with what God gave him, like becoming president, he took something, manipulated or not, and became a super soldier. To me, I dont' care, that's no different than the MLB players that do it to make sure their kids and grandkids never have to work again and to me, it's no less or more moral either.

[roach]

Bottom line is that instead of doing something with what God gave him, like becoming president, he took something, manipulated or not, and became a super soldier. To me, I dont' care, that's no different than the MLB players that do it to make sure their kids and grandkids never have to work again and to me, it's no less or more moral either.

Peter didnt use his god given abilities to become Spiderman
Neither did Hulk, Antman, Flash,Shazam.....

[Gilpesh]

Why is this retarded thread still going?

Captain America chanced dying with the serum because it would help America. That is better than some idiot who wants to hit a baseball harder so he can demand more money. If some dumb ass wrestler can't see that, sucks for him, he's just proving what we all know already.

End of story.

[3atman]

no it's NOT. That is totally subjective. I would NEVER fight in a war for this country because in all likelihood, we don't have to be there. However, if I had to do something a little immoral to make millions a year and provide incredibly well for my family, I'd do that in a heart beat. Most people would, that's proof by politicians lying, journalists skewing facts, businessmen cheating their partners and their customers, pornstars taking drugs to make them perform better, students taking aderol, musicians taking drugs to calm them before an audition, it happens in every aspect of life.

CM Punk is not a dumb ass wrestler, again, you are just being ignorant and not really reading into it. CM Punk is a straight edge heel, a babyface that would put on a good feud with him would be a babyface that took the SSS.

"Captain America chanced dying because it would help America" no, him becoming president and meeting with foreign leaders and figuring out a resolution without anyone dying or anymore wars would help America more. My point isn't that Captain America is a bad guy, just that he's just like every other American Hero.

[Gilpesh]

Yeah. That guy is a dumb ass wrestler. Trying to describe him in wrestling terms just makes it sound stupider.

And your idea that Steve Rogers should have become president to solve World War 2 is... well, let's just say that if your idea was a person; it would be on the short bus and wearing a helmet. First off, Steve Rogers is what... eighteen, nineteen, when he takes it? That means he has to wait YEARS before he is even able to run, and then he's obviously not winning any time soon... so with your plan. Steve Rogers would roughly arrive decades after the Nazis killed all the jews in Europe. Good job.

Steve Rogers taking the serum was a test. A test that in his mind would have lead to more soldiers like him which means that less American kids would die in the war and the war would end sooner with less people killed. That, is way more moral than some idiots playing baseball on steroids for inflated paychecks.

[roach]

CM Punk is not a dumb ass wrestler, again, you are just being ignorant and not really reading into it. CM Punk is a straight edge heel, a babyface that would put on a good feud with him would be a babyface that took the SSS.

"Captain America chanced dying because it would help America" no, him becoming president and meeting with foreign leaders and figuring out a resolution without anyone dying or anymore wars would help America more. My point isn't that Captain America is a bad guy, just that he's just like every other American Hero.

Hitler can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And He absolutely will not stop, ever, until everyone is dead.

[Gilpesh]

Hitler can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And He absolutely will not stop, ever, until everyone is dead.
I don't know what's funnier: that I've heard this in many movies to describe the bad guy.... or the fact that it was in the present tense and gave me a mental image of zombie Hitler.

[roach]

I don't know what's funnier: that I've heard this in many movies to describe the bad guy.... or the fact that it was in the present tense and gave me a mental image of zombie Hitler.

its from terminator

[C. Lee]

"Captain America chanced dying because it would help America" no, him becoming president and meeting with foreign leaders and figuring out a resolution without anyone dying or anymore wars would help America more. My point isn't that Captain America is a bad guy, just that he's just like every other American Hero.
Do you have any idea what was going on during that little thing called WORLD WAR II?

[3atman]

So, Steve was young, he can be a politican, he can start a group like the Axis of Justice. I know that in the captain world 1 soldier really did make a difference, but you can make much more of a difference if you are the one pulling the strings. Yea he was young, and I know the comic universe is different, but we beat Hitler (actually parkinsons did) without the help of a super soldier.

I already got the answer I wanted out of one of the posters, so I'm satisfied.

[roach]

Do you have any idea what was going on during that little thing called WORLD WAR II?

I take that as a no

[roach]

So, Steve was young, he can be a politican, he can start a group like the Axis of Justice. I know that in the captain world 1 soldier really did make a difference, but you can make much more of a difference if you are the one pulling the strings. Yea he was young, and I know the comic universe is different, but we beat Hitler (actually parkinsons did) without the help of a super soldier.

I already got the answer I wanted out of one of the posters, so I'm satisfied.

Now I know you are just Effen with us

[3atman]

Do you have any idea what was going on during that little thing called WORLD WAR II?
No, I live in a cave in the middle east with Tom Morello trying to keep Tony Stark from building a suit, YES I know. Why do you guys think it's so noble to become a soldier. If you are really physically fit, but not too smart (no offense to any enlisted men, I have some friends who are, one dropped out of high school, the other got a 13 on his ACT, enlisted soldiers are historically the bottom 20% of their high school) then you should be a soldier. However, if you are smart and not very fit, try a different way to make a difference. The idea that you'll really make that much of a difference is why they can promote the military to young kids with so much more to live for, watch the HBO documentary on Vietnam, it's sick how young these guys were. Granted they were in the draft many of them, but a lot of them started out enthusiastic because of what they were told, by the end of it, they felt like they had been played and they just wanted out.

[Gilpesh]

I already got the answer I wanted out of one of the posters, so I'm satisfied.
Hah. "One other person is as crazy as me! That makes me right!"

[roach]

No, I live in a cave in the middle east with Tom Morello trying to keep Tony Stark from building a suit, YES I know. Why do you guys think it's so noble to become a soldier. If you are really physically fit, but not too smart (no offense to any enlisted men, I have some friends who are, one dropped out of high school, the other got a 13 on his ACT, enlisted soldiers are historically the bottom 20% of their high school) then you should be a soldier. However, if you are smart and not very fit, try a different way to make a difference. The idea that you'll really make that much of a difference is why they can promote the military to young kids with so much more to live for, watch the HBO documentary on Vietnam, it's sick how young these guys were. Granted they were in the draft many of them, but a lot of them started out enthusiastic because of what they were told, by the end of it, they felt like they had been played and they just wanted out.

Vietnam is not the same as WW2

[3atman]

I am right. My point is that captain america is the most american superhero because he's just like all the sports figures and actors who used enhancements to achieve what they want.

A baseball player who has all the mental ability but just isn't there physically takes roids= a guy who wants to be a soldier and has all the mental ability but just isn't there physically.

An actor who has all the charisma but doesn't have the look uses enhancement to do so, same thing. ITS THE SAME THING. It's not arguable. Your ONLY argument is that Captain America's cause is more noble, but that is 100% totally an opinion. The bare bones of what is going on is the same. Morality is debatable, the facts are not.

[C. Lee]

So, Steve was young, he can be a politican, he can start a group like the Axis of Justice. I know that in the captain world 1 soldier really did make a difference, but you can make much more of a difference if you are the one pulling the strings. Yea he was young, and I know the comic universe is different, but we beat Hitler (actually parkinsons did) without the help of a super soldier.

I already got the answer I wanted out of one of the posters, so I'm satisfied.

So....instead of a guy in his early 20's taking an experimental serum to make him a better soldier to fight the group of people who are systemetically murdering millions of innocent people and attacking most of the world's populace....you would prefer for him to become a politician, wait around for at least 15 years (you have to be at least 35 to become a president in the United States) in the hopes that he can be elected president so that he can peacefully and without bloodshed try to stop the attempted genocide of several different groups of people and the subjucation of the rest of the world?

[roach]

3atman let me know if you ever run for public office

[C. Lee]

No, I live in a cave in the middle east with Tom Morello trying to keep Tony Stark from building a suit, YES I know. Why do you guys think it's so noble to become a soldier. If you are really physically fit, but not too smart (no offense to any enlisted men, I have some friends who are, one dropped out of high school, the other got a 13 on his ACT, enlisted soldiers are historically the bottom 20% of their high school) then you should be a soldier. However, if you are smart and not very fit, try a different way to make a difference. The idea that you'll really make that much of a difference is why they can promote the military to young kids with so much more to live for, watch the HBO documentary on Vietnam, it's sick how young these guys were. Granted they were in the draft many of them, but a lot of them started out enthusiastic because of what they were told, by the end of it, they felt like they had been played and they just wanted out.

If you think that the events of WWII are comparable to Vietnam, or the Gulf wars.....then yeah, I suspect you have been living in a cave.

[roach]

I think he's screwing with us

[3atman]

All I'm suggesting is that Cap is like every other American hero. Maybe not become a politician, but he could start a group, like I said (and was ignored about this point). The Axis of Justice and other groups that fight for freedoms and global issues is something he could have done. Realistically one soldier, even a super soldier, doesn't help that much. I know in the comics it did. really, Caps decision and the success of that is all based on the writers. They could have written him as someone who starts a movement, but that wouldn't have been as exciting and wouldn't have promoted the military as much.

I wasn't saying Vietnam was like WW2, I was saying the idea that you can make a difference as a soldier is why we've always had young kids put in situations they probably shouldn't be in. You know, like when I said this The idea that you'll really make that much of a difference is why they can promote the military to young kids with so much more to live for. Then I used Vietnam as an example. That's not calling the 2 wars the same thing. I was just saying that throughout history the Government and military have pimped out this idea of "KILL SOME *INSERT NAME OF ENEMY* AND BE A PATRIOT HOA!!"

[Bubonic]

I am right. My point is that captain america is the most american superhero because he's just like all the sports figures and actors who used enhancements to achieve what they want.

A baseball player who has all the mental ability but just isn't there physically takes roids= a guy who wants to be a soldier and has all the mental ability but just isn't there physically.

An actor who has all the charisma but doesn't have the look uses enhancement to do so, same thing. ITS THE SAME THING. It's not arguable. Your ONLY argument is that Captain America's cause is more noble, but that is 100% totally an opinion. The bare bones of what is going on is the same. Morality is debatable, the facts are not.

Hope you're just a big troll.

There are no facts here as you're discussing fiction.

You think politicians stop wars?

You need some enhancements of your own, drug induced or otherwise.

[roach]

All I'm suggesting is that Cap is like every other American hero. Maybe not become a politician, but he could start a group, like I said (and was ignored about this point). The Axis of Justice and other groups that fight for freedoms and global issues is something he could have done. Realistically one soldier, even a super soldier, doesn't help that much. I know in the comics it did. really, Caps decision and the success of that is all based on the writers. They could have written him as someone who starts a movement, but that wouldn't have been as exciting and wouldn't have promoted the military as much.

I wasn't saying Vietnam was like WW2, I was saying the idea that you can make a difference as a soldier is why we've always had young kids put in situations they probably shouldn't be in. You know, like when I said this . Then I used Vietnam as an example. That's not calling the 2 wars the same thing. I was just saying that throughout history the Government and military have pimped out this idea of "KILL SOME *INSERT NAME OF ENEMY* AND BE A PATRIOT HOA!!"

at what point did Captain America promote the military?????

and as someone who joined the military I have not met anyone who joined because the recruiter said go kill the enemy and become a patriot. Its clear to me that you have some issues with the military and thats cool because we all arent supposed to like the same things

[Bubonic]

Threads like these remind me why I hardly ever post anymore in the first place.

Also, Captain America didn't win the war now did he?

Originally the U.S. wanted to make the whole army consist of soldiers such as he, but things went to hell and he was the only one who benefited from it. He served as a symbol of American might, a fighting personification of everything they'd want to stand for and inspiration to keep on fighting.

Obviously in real life they wouldn't use someone this spectacular in the fashion that they did since he'd of been such a beauteous target, wearing the flag and representing what he did would of meant that killing him would of killed hope, all the more reason to kill him.

He'd of been used for recruitment footage and if actually used he'd be some special op type that would never be seen as he silently killed enemy forces, an American ninja.

Thank you for forcing me to think of how weak the character is, jerk.

[roach]

Threads like these remind me why I hardly ever post anymore in the first place.

Also, Captain America didn't win the war now did he?

Originally the U.S. wanted to make the whole army consist of soldiers such as he, but things went to hell and he was the only one who benefited from it. He served as a symbol of American might, a fighting personification of everything they'd want to stand for and inspiration to keep on fighting.

Obviously in real life they wouldn't use someone this spectacular in the fashion that they did since he'd of been such a beauteous target, wearing the flag and representing what he did would of meant that killing him would of killed hope, all the more reason to kill him.

He'd of been used for recruitment footage and if actually used he'd be some special op type that would never be seen as he silently killed enemy forces, an American ninja.

Thank you for forcing me to think of how weak the character is, jerk.

well if its real world then that means Red Skull exists too...RK was scaring the ***** out of enemy troops to the point that they fled as soon as they saw him. US saw this and need someone to calm the troops and give them the feeling they were fighting with the spirit of America...hence Captain America and the star spangled suit

[3atman]

at what point did Captain America promote the military?????

and as someone who joined the military I have not met anyone who joined because the recruiter said go kill the enemy and become a patriot. Its clear to me that you have some issues with the military and thats cool because we all arent supposed to like the same things

I honestly appreciate people who have been in the military. I was in ROTC at college for one year until I felt like everything I was doing, I was just doing as a robot. Taking orders. I also stopped because if I became an officer, I would be ordering around people who were trained to be robots. I just didn't like that.

Captain America made people more patriotic, that's what I meant by promote the military. It was propaganda.

One last time, my ONLY POINT is that he's just like every other american hero. I don't think it's a bad thing, I just thought it was funny when you think about the SSS like a performance enhancer just like what all the other heroes use.

[roach]

I honestly appreciate people who have been in the military. I was in ROTC at college for one year until I felt like everything I was doing, I was just doing as a robot. Taking orders. I also stopped because if I became an officer, I would be ordering around people who were trained to be robots. I just didn't like that.

Captain America made people more patriotic, that's what I meant by promote the military. It was propaganda.

One last time, my ONLY POINT is that he's just like every other american hero. I don't think it's a bad thing, I just thought it was funny when you think about the SSS like a performance enhancer just like what all the other heroes use.

:doh:

[Bubonic]

well if its real world then that means Red Skull exists too...RK was scaring the ***** out of enemy troops to the point that they fled as soon as they saw him. US saw this and need someone to calm the troops and give them the feeling they were fighting with the spirit of America...hence Captain America and the star spangled suit

The jerkness has rubbed off on me as I shouldn't even be trying to bring in real world logic into this because it'll never end.

First off, soldiers don't scare easy once they've been out on the field long enough. I can't imagine a dork in a skeleton mask would invoke much terror compared to seeing one of your brothers unsuccessfully trying to hold his guts in.

He'd have to have fear inspiring capabilities, and a cruelty remarkable even in times of war.

In either case you have some super soldier on either side who are figureheads, they're more capable, they cause more damage, they stand out like sore thumbs and their obvious leaders.

Hmm, wonder who we should gun for? So we'll have to believe that these super soldiers are so damned super they can avoid being killed when every last enemy soldier is gunning for them! :doh:

[roach]

The jerkness has rubbed off on me as I shouldn't even be trying to bring in real world logic into this because it'll never end.

First off, soldiers don't scare easy once they've been out on the field long enough. I can't imagine a dork in a skeleton mask would invoke much terror compared to seeing one of your brothers unsuccessfully trying to hold his guts in.

He'd have to have fear inspiring capabilities, and a cruelty remarkable even in times of war.

In either case you have some super soldier on either side who are figureheads, they're more capable, they cause more damage, they stand out like sore thumbs and their obvious leaders.

Hmm, wonder who we should gun for? So we'll have to believe that these super soldiers are so damned super they can avoid being killed when every last enemy soldier is gunning for them! :doh:

I based that on the Red Baron who in WW1 painted his plane bright red and became such a awesome pilot that enemy pilots retreated when they saw his plane

[Bubonic]

I based that on the Red Baron who in WW1 painted his plane bright red and became such a awesome pilot that enemy pilots retreated when they saw his plane

But now that I think of it, isn't the Red Skull more of a behind the scenes guy? He didn't even have super powers, but I still don't see how he could be used effectively as propaganda.

I see him more being used as propaganda by the United States in order to personify the evil that Nazism represented, and oh wait, that is exactly what he was when he was created.

The Minister of Propaganda would have never approved. :awesome:

[Bubonic]

Oh and implying you'd be lynched for a stupid thread makes light of lynching, and could surely be offensive to some.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6503/50408274.gif

[roach]

But now that I think of it, isn't the Red Skull more of a behind the scenes guy? He didn't even have super powers, but I still don't see how he could be used effectively as propaganda.

I see him more being used as propaganda by the United States in order to personify the evil that Nazism represented, and oh wait, that is exactly what he was when he was created.

The Minister of Propaganda would have never approved. :awesome:

I see them using Red Skull as a fear monger....RS uses his dust of death and a rumor gets started that he can kill just by looking at someone...he would be the reason why Germany rolled into Poland and France and England pretty much gave it to him...RS would be feared in the same way the SS was feared

[Bubonic]

I see them using Red Skull as a fear monger....RS uses his dust of death and a rumor gets started that he can kill just by looking at someone...he would be the reason why Germany rolled into Poland and France and England pretty much gave it to him...RS would be feared in the same way the SS was feared

I like it.

I still think Cap as infantry is ludicrous on all levels since it be such a risk, but then again I wouldn't want to see him without him looking like he should.

[roach]

I like it.

I still think Cap as infantry is ludicrous on all levels since it be such a risk, but then again I wouldn't want to see him without him looking like he should.

agreed. You dont call Cap to take out an armored division...you call him in for special missions

[Bubonic]

Good, now I can sleep.
Carry on.

[Paste Pot Pete]

It's not comparable to using 'roids in sports. Sports have specific rules against it, because it gives an artificial advantage to one athlete over another, in a setting that's supposed to honor natural ability.

War isn't like that. War is full of artificial enhancements. If it wasn't, it would literally be guys in a field punching each other. Every gun, every tank, every missile, every piece of body armor, is an artificial advantage. The super-soldier serum is just a more advanced form of weaponry.

[Webhead2006]

i dont want to sound like a jerk at all. But I think it would probably be best for this thread to be closed. Since its just a silly endless debates going on and on.

[3atman]

I agree, I've made some interesting points that at least make people think, people have made posts that made me think, that's all I wanted. No need for this to keep going. Unless you want it to be one of those silly circular cast threads or ideas threads where about every 5-10 pages everyone reintroducing their ideas again, they're ignored by other people offering their ideas, and round about it goes.