Can Batman escape the "Third Act Curse"?

[Chris Wallace]

We have had a lot of franchises churn out two widely loved and highly successful installments only to have a 3rd that either crashed & burned at the box office, disappointed the majority of fans or both. Spider-Man, Blade, the X-Men and the Matrix are among the growing list of casualties. What assurances do we truly have that Batman won't suffer the same fate?

[The Joker]

Of course Batman can escape the third act curse. There's no guarantees he will. But right now there's nothing to suggest that he won't.

[luke1234]

Hell yeah he can, He's ****ing batman.

[FlawlessVictory]

The reason why the third film in these superhero franchises disappointed was because of either a switch in director or studio interference. Neither will be the case for this next Batman, so I am confident it will do more than just escape the third act curse.

[Chris Wallace]

What about changing writers?

[luke1234]

What about changing writers?

The writers are the same for Batman 3 so that has that going for it.

[Chris Wallace]

Good.
I think one of the best ways to avoid the "curse" is to not try to do too much at once. The downfall of most 3rd installments is the pressing need to "wrap up" the series, & throw in everything fans have been asking for regardless of whether the story benefits or not. And often, the 2nd act has some dangling plotline that begs to be resolved in the 3rd but amidst everything else that's going on, can't be done satisfactorily.

[Happy Jack]

I think Nolan can pull it off. I know he can.

[General Vulcun]

The problem with the 3rd film in a lot of series' is that they cram a lot into them; characters, villains, action sequences, and so on. The thing with Nolan, however, is that he's bee doing this since Begins and in TDK. He manages lots of characters very well, he connects plots/subplots in a way that doesn't feel very sloppy or rushed, and while Nolan doesn't include a tone of action sequences compared to other films, when he does have them they have tremendous impact and they look great.

The other thing about Nolan is that he's fully grasped the epic scale of Batman's journey/dilemmas. Though TDK is arguably more epic in scale than Begins, there's no question that Nolan has pre-planned this trilogy from the day he was hired and envisioned every chapter of this story on a large scale. Other trilogies seem to literally take each film one at a time, growing in size with each one, wheras Nolan sees each Batman film as roughly equal in size, each chapter playing as important a role in telling the hero's story; just because Begins is an origin film didn't mean that it couldnt be as, or even more epic as a lot of other film's 2nd or 3rd films.

I fully believe in Nolan's ability to provide a satsifying conclusion because A) the guy is a great story teller and knows how to interconnect plots, handle lots of characters and develop arcs, B) the guy already knew 7-8 years ago where his trilogy would go and isn't coming into the 3rd film trying to throw something together based on the previous installments; like I said, his trilogy has an arc, and C) Nolan, as I already noted with Begins and TDK, has been down the route of making epic Batman films; it's nothing new to him.

The failure of other 3rd installments came from poor planning, bad direction, and studio interference. Nolan has planned things out very well, his direction has been more than exceptional, and with the quality films he's churning out, I doubt WB tries to interfere with this one bit.

[Chris Wallace]

In a lot of ways, it seems like the filmmakers come off of the first film knowing what they plan to do with the second, then come off the second knowing what they want to do with the third, and then somehow that plan gets derailed. I think the fear of doing a 4th movie, in light of Superman 4 and Batman & Robin, is another part of the reason why these 3rd movies fail so badly.

[El Payaso]

No. He's doomed.

[Alex Logan]

No. He's doomed.

LOL! :woot:

[Figs]

Good.
I think one of the best ways to avoid the "curse" is to not try to do too much at once. The downfall of most 3rd installments is the pressing need to "wrap up" the series, & throw in everything fans have been asking for regardless of whether the story benefits or not. And often, the 2nd act has some dangling plotline that begs to be resolved in the 3rd but amidst everything else that's going on, can't be done satisfactorily.

I truly believe the next Batman film will break the third act curse. We have the same creative team coming back as others have already mentioned as well as the fact that Nolan says he likes to focus on one film at a time. As General Vulcun mentioned, he sort of preplanned this trilogy in a way. I don't think he knew the exact story or villians he would want for the third film when he was making BB but I think he knew where he wanted Batman to go in general.

Another thing we should all know by now is that Nolan doesn't do fan service with his Batman films. He could have easily thrown in nods like the Iceberg Lounge and a quick cameo with Victor Fries in BB or TDK but he didn't because he knows it would add nothing nor benefit the film.

The last thing is that the second film didn't have any major dangling plotlines that need to be resolved in the third film. Batman may be wanted for murder but it wasn't done in a way where the film had a cliffhanger ending. The Dark Knight's ending much like the first Matrix's ending was a perfectly fine way to end that specific film without absolutely needing a sequel to tie things up. Both films left it open for the imagination as to what will happen next.

He can go into this third film however he wants and the only single thing that needs to be carried over is the police treating Batman as a murderer which doesn't necessarily even need to be tied up really.

[BH/HHH]

God I hope so all the 3rd Superhero films have sucked Superman III, Batman Forever, Spiderman 3, X-Men 3, etc. I reckon this will be the one to break the curse, Nolan is very detailed with his films and I doubt he's gonna let us down.

[Figs]

Don't forget Blade 3 as well.

[Happy Jack]

Don't forget Blade 3 as well.
I've been trying to erase that from my mind. Thanks a lot for reminding me. :meanie:

[General Vulcun]

Toy Story 3, not only one of the best, if not the best 3rd film in a series, but one of the best sequels of all time. It built on the themes of the previous films while doing it's own thing as a stand-alone feature (though it works best as a sequel, IMO). The result is a very funny and often touching conclusion to the trilogy.

There's nothing to suggest that Nolan wont be approaching Batman 3 in a similar manner.

[BH/HHH]

Don't forget Blade 3 as well.

Oh yeah can't believe I missed that ha ha

Its funny though I can actually watch Blade 3 and Spiderman 3 even though they are tosh they're not bad as action movies.

[Chris Wallace]

Toy Story 3, not only one of the best, if not the best 3rd film in a series, but one of the best sequels of all time. It built on the themes of the previous films while doing it's own thing as a stand-alone feature (though it works best as a sequel, IMO). The result is a very funny and often touching conclusion to the trilogy.

There's nothing to suggest that Nolan wont be approaching Batman 3 in a similar manner.

I don't know if "Toy Story" is the best reference but ok. Particularly where you use the words "funny" and "touching". I seem to recall someone else thinking that the 3rd Batman should be approached in such a manner.

[General Vulcun]

I don't know if "Toy Story" is the best reference but ok. Particularly where you use the words "funny" and "touching". I seem to recall someone else thinking that the 3rd Batman should be approached in such a manner.

I think you reeeeeeeeeeally misunderstood what I was saying. Allow me to bold for you the "similar manner" part:

"It built on the themes of the previous films while doing it's own thing as a stand-alone feature"

Being funny and touching was what anyone could hope for in Toy Story 3, not with Batman. The result for Toy Story 3 was what you expected out of that film, and Batman, obviously, will produce different but equally as satisfying results for its own type of film, and I think the idea of Batman 3 doing its own thing while remaining a piece of the Nolan Batman puzzle is an appropiate way to approach the film. It's a method that Toy Story 3 used and brought it success, and it's a method The Dark Knight used and brought it success.

[luke1234]

Well put General Vulcun

[Chris Wallace]

I knew what you meant, GV. I was going on how you phrased it.

[Mace Dolex]

I have faith in Nolan on making a good 3rd act, TDK made tons of money I'm sure WB will give Nolan more freedom. But then again Spider-Man 2 was also a hit but Sony botched it with SM3.

[commandersac]

the only reason the other movies failed is because either the studio interferred with the script for monetary reasons, or to "please the fans" or to speed up production. or the directior changed, or the writer. christopher nolan does not have ANY of those problems. in fact, he has it all together. so i say the next movie might, I SAID MIGHT, be better then the dark knight ::waits to be mugged by a million crazed fanboys:: anyway july 2012 cant get here fast enough!
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sacsgameblog.blogspot.com

[Chris Wallace]

Well, Iron Man 2 isn't quite the crowd pleaser that its predecessor was. And Favreau stayed on without any of the problems that you mentioned.

[Batman4ever]

With Nolan directing. Yes! Easy. It's possible the third act will be better than the first 2.

[Chris Wallace]

Possible but not guaranteed.

[The Manly Torch]

This is most likely my opinion, and my opinion only, but I didn't really see any of the X-Men movies as being all that good anyways. Enjoyable, yes, but not in the sense to which people seem to be alluding. X-Men was more focused on just having a bunch of X-Men on screen fighting and whatnot and less worried about strict plot structure or good storytelling, which seems to be the same exact case with X-Men 3, except X-Men 3 wasn't afraid to kill key characters (although I don't know how Fox allowed them to go through with it). Don't get me wrong, the Nightcrawler scene in X-Men 2 is one of my all-time favorite scenes, but honestly... After decades of living with mutants and whatnot, I'm sure there would have been precautions set in place long before anything like that could happen, and in fact something like that probably, in my logic, would have already been attempted.

I don't claim to be all-knowing or all-intelligent; I'm merely making observations as I see them. I always felt that Wolverine was being given the chick flick treatment, instead of being portrayed in the fashion to which I was accustomed, even in the movie of his namesake. Allow to expressly iterate that I'm not saying I don't like any of the X-Men movies, because I do. And I, in fact, feel that X-Men 3 was the worst of them--at least of those three, now I feel like X-Men Origins Wolverine is the worst of them--but I'm not so sure that narrowing the blame for this can strictly be set upon the fact that it was a different director. In fact, I don't think that changing directors for sequels automatically equates to a bad decision. I just wanted to point that out. Maybe the script could've gone through just a few more drafts, maybe a producer strongarmed this or that, honestly we don't know; we just make suppositions, and even some of us THINK we know.

I just wanted to clarify all that.

[Temple Fugate]

Did someone say...

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080930201518/dcanimated/images/thumb/0/0f/Mister_Miracle.png/275px-Mister_Miracle.png

escape?

[LightningFlash]

Let's see...you have Christopher Nolan, who's one of the best directors of our time. You've got the same writers from the very beginning. You've got a great core cast. And you've got a ton of Batman villains that have never been used before that'll be great assets for a third and maybe final film of Nolan's series(Black Mask, Hush, Deadshot to name a few besides the already-rumored Riddler and Catwoman).

And, again, you have Christopher Nolan who is not worrying about making the third film more epic than The Dark Knight, but to only keep the emotion and suspense that the last two films had, while keeping a strong theme(s) in the film and bringing Batman back out of the shadows and as the hero once more.

Yes, I think this film can escape the third film curse. Of course it can; I have no doubts about that.

[imsuperman]

Unfortunately I don't think it can top TDK. I went into that movie with astronomically unrealistic expectations and it met or exceeded every one. I think it was bolstered by Mr. Ledger's legendary performance and sadly, untimely death as well.

I remember catching all the trailers and clips online well in advance, as early as the previous December. I was counting down the release date months beofre. It was an event. An experience, you know?

I think the third film can be a very good film. I just think it's not going to be as well-received because it will live in the shadow of TDK.

Like how, as great as BB is, (and I REALLY LIKE IT) it just kind of feels like an appetizer to TDK. The third film will be a nice dessert that leaves everyone satisfied. But you'll still have the taste of the Bar-B-Q ribs in your mouth when it's over.

Made you hungry just now, didn't I?

[Squidboy]

I think it'd be very hard to top a movie starring the Joker in general, but in my possibly unpopular opinion, Batman Returns was a much more enjoyable film than Burton's Batman, so I have faith that Nolan could blow The Dark Knight out of the water. Even if he uses Killer Croc, if he sticks to his strict standards in film-making, he may just break the curse.

[Chris Wallace]

I find Croc unlikely. And I hated Returns, but I think that's the unpopular opinion.

[luke1234]

Unfortunately I don't think it can top TDK. I went into that movie with astronomically unrealistic expectations and it met or exceeded every one. I think it was bolstered by Mr. Ledger's legendary performance and sadly, untimely death as well.

I remember catching all the trailers and clips online well in advance, as early as the previous December. I was counting down the release date months beofre. It was an event. An experience, you know?

I think the third film can be a very good film. I just think it's not going to be as well-received because it will live in the shadow of TDK.

Like how, as great as BB is, (and I REALLY LIKE IT) it just kind of feels like an appetizer to TDK. The third film will be a nice dessert that leaves everyone satisfied. But you'll still have the taste of the Bar-B-Q ribs in your mouth when it's over.

Made you hungry just now, didn't I?

lol, love the food analogy you got going on here, and I must agree. I dont think this film needs to be as cluttered as TDK was. I just need a satisfactory conclusion with a very stable story and interesting characters.

[Chiroptera]

He's Goddamn Christopher Nolan!!

[Chris Wallace]

lol, love the food analogy you got going on here, and I must agree. I dont think this film needs to be as cluttered as TDK was. I just need a satisfactory conclusion with a very stable story and interesting characters.

I think the need to "conclude" is part of the problem we've experienced in the past. Everyone says wrap it up and the conclusions keep coming out feeling forced; rushed.

[ALP]

That whole 'third act curse' thing is just a load. In the 80s, Return of the Jedi and The Last Crusade were both terrific trilogy enders. There are a load of bad 'third' films but really, there is just as many series that have flat out bad second sequels as well. And Toy Story 3 was already mentioned in here, it's one of the most well received films of the year thus far.

[Chris Wallace]

One-the majority of 3rd acts don't go over well. 2-LOTR was pre-written decades ago, so it wasn't put upon Jackson to wrap it up. Tolkien already took care of it. 3-not one movie that you mentioned was a COMIC BOOK movie, which is where the "curse" truly applies. I know there's nothing saying that all 3rd films are destined to fail/be hated, but I'm referring to a pattern that has existed throughout the history of the genre.

[ALP]

One-the majority of 3rd acts don't go over well. 2-LOTR was pre-written decades ago, so it wasn't put upon Jackson to wrap it up. Tolkien already took care of it. 3-not one movie that you mentioned was a COMIC BOOK movie, which is where the "curse" truly applies. I know there's nothing saying that all 3rd films are destined to fail/be hated, but I'm referring to a pattern that has existed throughout the history of the genre.

Well I suppose that is trueof comic book films.

Unless you were mystified by Richard Pryor's performance in Superman III:hehe:

[Original Spawn]

Return of the Jedi was a great trilogy ender but it was not as good as The Empire Strikes Back, probably because of the Ewoks and because we didn´t have a big suprise like in the empire strickes back, but let me tell you, many hate the star wars prequels but i can´t say that because episode III was the reason why i really started to see the other films too, and episode III, if considered as a 3rd film then we can say that it was a great 3rd film, many star wars fans think that episode III was almost as good as empire stri Back,
And now returning to batman, i think that Nolan can pull it off, the script was already written, and so the story is already prepared, since i saw my first batman film, which was Batman Begins and not the older ones, i began to consider batman my favourite hero, i consider The Dark Knight and the future batman 3 an event.
It is going to be terribly difficult to make something better without the joker but i hope nolan can make it right, but some of you forget about mad hater, he and some other villains that appeared in the films, eccept the joker couldn appear in The Batman 2004 tv series because nolan wanted them in batman begins or it´s sequel, now it only remains him, and Killer croc, deadshot and firefly have already appeared in the gotham knight animation set in the nolanverse.
I like Batman Returns and many people also consider it as good or better than the original batman film, if batman 3 fails in least i can laugh in the face of those who want the green goblin in the spider-man reboot alá the joker in the dark knight.
But i hope that doesn´t need to happen.

[Chris Wallace]

What 2004 TV series?

[Original Spawn]

The animated one, i don´t know if it was from 1003 or 2004 but if it is close from the right number it´s easy to figure it out.

[Homer J. Fong]

There are a number of pitfalls third installments fall into, and I'm particularly thinking of Spider-Man 3 and X-Men: The Last Stand: shoving too many characters and elements into the film, placing fan service above proper plot construction, and emphasizing spectacle over character development, thereby forgetting what people loved about the previous movies. If Nolan and co. sidestep those mistakes, yes, they can overcome the supposed "curse."

[Chris Wallace]

Not disagreeing with Fong. The effort to try to give fans what they think they want has bitten the filmmakers in the butt. I would add Blade Trinity to that list, as i felt it suffered from some of those same mistakes.
@ ORiginal Spawn; If you're referring to "The Batman", the Joker WAS on that show.

[Hole Shot]

The only thing that doesn't bode well for this movie is that this is supposed to be the climax of the Nolans' arc and his three most climatic adversaries are gone. The most significant one being Joker, which was beyond their control.

[Team Andino]

The Dark Knight ended my streak of bad midnight premieres for me and I fully believe with Nolan and his crew returning we'll finally get a super hero trilogy we can be proud of

[Closerframe]

To answer this forum's question, yes! Nolan can easily escape the third film curse as well as surpass The Dark Knight. Not in terms of 'epicness', but a more personal story that takes Batman further into a realm of dark and twisted psychosis. Many people have failed to realize Nolan already made a more epic film, and it's called Inception. ;)

[Chris Wallace]

Haven't seen Inception. But it has nothing to do with Batman, I'm sure. Superman Returns was made by the same guy who also gave us Usual Suspects, Valkyrie and X2. So what is done in one area has no bearing on another. We shouldn't deem Nolan infallible, no matter how well he's delivered in the past.
@ Hole Shot; his best adversaries aren't necessarily gone. They can do some amazing things with the likes of Riddler, Catwoman, some more recent baddie like Hush or Black Mask-the possibilities are out there. And I don't think they would have brought Joker back whether Ledger lived or died.

[Closerframe]

Haven't seen Inception. But it has nothing to do with Batman, I'm sure. Superman Returns was made by the same guy who also gave us Usual Suspects, Valkyrie and X2. So what is done in one area has no bearing on another. We shouldn't deem Nolan infallible, no matter how well he's delivered in the past.


Bryan Singer wasn't consistent after he made Usual Suspects. X-Men was average at best, X2 is a little overrated, and Valkyrie was terrible. I can't fully compare Inception to TDK in terms of plot or possible action sequences given Inception takes place in the human subconscious. But it just goes to show Nolan can make a bigger film, with a grander story, and get even greater performances out of actors.

[LightningFlash]

Christopher Nolan isn't a pushover like Sam Raimi.

So...yah, the third film will break the curse.

[zeptron]

It was mostly due to studio interference that third comic movies such as SM3 and X3 weren't on par with their predecessors. As long as WB stays out of Nolan's way I think he'll deliver a solid third film.

For instance if he doesn't want the movie in 3D, WB should respect his wishes and not force it upon him. This type of thing could cause him to bail(no pun intended) and we get some hack/yes man who screws everything up.

[Chris Wallace]

I guess the appropriate question should then be, will WB stay out of his way? Studios tend to think they know best when it comes to their cash cow. And they have interfered with Batman before.

[LightningFlash]

I don't think WB has any reason to do such though.

Batman has been their cash cow yes, but so are Nolan's films(or at least recently, and especially with Inception).

[Kurt Wagner]

I think it'd be very hard to top a movie starring the Joker in general, but in my possibly unpopular opinion, Batman Returns was a much more enjoyable film than Burton's Batman, so I have faith that Nolan could blow The Dark Knight out of the water. Even if he uses Killer Croc, if he sticks to his strict standards in film-making, he may just break the curse.

A lot of people feel this to be the case and cite Returns as a better film overall.

[Kurt Wagner]

WB will probably stay out of his way... Harry Potter is almost over and what other big franchise does WB have going for it other than Batman... They already F-ed up once in the 90's and I think they definitely learned their lesson with that... So I really doubt WB will do anything to screw up Nolan's vision.

Unless some studio exec is fired and some moron takes their place, we shouldn't have much to worry about.

[Chris Wallace]

A lot of people feel this to be the case and cite Returns as a better film overall.

I hated Returns.

[LightningFlash]

I hated Returns.

:up:

I can't say I've agreed with you often, if any, but I agree with you on this one.

I love '89 Batman, but that's really it.

Didn't like BR, BF, and of course B&R.

[Happy Jack]

Returns seems to be a love it or hate it sort of thing.

[RustyCage]

I don't get the hate for Returns, not one bit. I always thought it was a lot less boring than '89 (much as I love it), although it's also slightly more camp I guess. But certainly not enough to put me off from it like with Forever and B+R.

[El Payaso]

The narrative of Returns is not very good for me. But the characters make the movie.

[Happy Jack]

I think it's a better, more focused film than its' predecessor. But it can also be very challenging.

[LightningFlash]

I was never a fan of it from the beginning myself. I'm not a huge fan of either Penguin or Catwoman(although I want to see Penguin in a movie as a crime boss, and not a deformed half penguin/half human character, and have him lead a freak gang). Although I like the closed-in scenery in Batman Returns, I think Batman is the overall better movie. It deals more with the rivalry of Joker and Batman than how BR portrayed the rivalry between Penguin and Batman, imo.

Christoper Walken was great in BR though. I loved his death scene.

[Two-Face]

Returns is pure Tim Burton movie not a Batman movie but nevertheless I like his movie.
Batman 89 is more of a Batman movie.

[LightningFlash]

Returns is pure Tim Burton movie not a Batman movie but nevertheless I like his movie.
Batman 89 is more of a Batman movie.

I never thought of it like that, but it does make sense. BR has the essence of every single Tim Burton film, as '89 Batman did not. It was a unique Burton film.

[ALP]

How is BR NOT a Batman film? It's a Burton film, no doubt, but it is also a Batman film. Never agreed with the whole "BR is not a Batman movie" thing some of you like to throw around. Batman can be portrayed in a billion different ways, BR was but one of them.

That's as stupid as saying "Arkahm Asylum is not a Batman comic, it's a Dave McKean artbook"

[Two-Face]

How is BR NOT a Batman film? It's a Burton film, no doubt, but it is also a Batman film. Never agreed with the whole "BR is not a Batman movie" thing some of you like to throw around. Batman can be portrayed in a billion different ways, BR was but one of them.

That's as stupid as saying "Arkahm Asylum is not a Batman comic, it's a Dave McKean artbook"



I don't think what I said was stupid BR is a Tim Burton signature that's not a bad thing. I love his other films.

[LightningFlash]

How is BR NOT a Batman film? It's a Burton film, no doubt, but it is also a Batman film. Never agreed with the whole "BR is not a Batman movie" thing some of you like to throw around. Batman can be portrayed in a billion different ways, BR was but one of them.

That's as stupid as saying "Arkahm Asylum is not a Batman comic, it's a Dave McKean artbook"

The atmosphere; BR has a much more gothic tone as to Burton's other films. '89 Batman just felt like a Batman story from the comics, without the over-the-top goth themes.

[ALP]

I don't think what I said was stupid BR is a Tim Burton signature that's not a bad thing. I love his other films.

I agree it is a Tim Burton signature. It's when someone tries to argue it is "not a Batman film" that is just wrong.

The atmosphere; BR has a much more gothic tone as to Burton's other films. '89 Batman just felt like a Batman story from the comics, without the over-the-top goth themes.

Just as I used in my example...

Arkham Asylum has a much more gothic tone like McKean's other work. So is it not a Batman comic?

As I said, there are many many ways to interpret Batman. He can be gothic, lighthearted, dark, scary, campy, or anywhere in between. Try reading Batman: Nosferatu, it's only about 1000x more gothic than anything in Batman Returns.

[LightningFlash]

:wall:

You should really read between the lines.

I'm not saying it's NOT a Batman film; I'm saying there is just a difference between how Batman Returns feels and how Batman feels.

There is no reasoning with your example either.

[ALP]

I get what you're saying, I originally was not talking to you...until you quoted me. My whole thing is towards those who say Returns is not a Batman film, and there have been those who say that. Otherwise I agree there is a difference between the feel and atmosphere, that is indisputable.

Oh and the example makes sense if you are familiar with McKean. Same for the Nosferatu example if you have read it.

[RustyCage]

I don't see what's wrong with Tim Burton having his own take on Batman based on his preferred style. I thought Tim managed to be personal while still being appropriate with Returns. It was artful, and while it was unique for Batman, that didn't make it somehow 'not Batman'.

Batman is a very versatile series, even with Burton aside, that should be thoroughly obvious.

Also, Lightning, I don't see why 'rivalry' as you described it has to be involved for it to be a good story. The villains can be interesting without being the ultimate elemental opposite of Batman. And Batman can still be compelling when he's just being Batman rather than necessarily competing with his greatest enemy. By your implied standards, the Joker is basically the only villain worth putting in a film, and I think that's an utter waste of loads of great story material.

[LightningFlash]

I think it very well needs to be involved. Look at Iron Man 2; it was sloppy as how Iron Man and Whiplash's evolving storyline was. There wasn't any, or didn't feel like, conflict. That's what I felt about Batman and Penguin.

[Chris Wallace]

I don't see what's wrong with Tim Burton having his own take on Batman based on his preferred style. I thought Tim managed to be personal while still being appropriate with Returns. It was artful, and while it was unique for Batman, that didn't make it somehow 'not Batman'.

Batman is a very versatile series, even with Burton aside, that should be thoroughly obvious.

Also, Lightning, I don't see why 'rivalry' as you described it has to be involved for it to be a good story. The villains can be interesting without being the ultimate elemental opposite of Batman. And Batman can still be compelling when he's just being Batman rather than necessarily competing with his greatest enemy. By your implied standards, the Joker is basically the only villain worth putting in a film, and I think that's an utter waste of loads of great story material.
I think each villain has his/her own purpose and contribution to the story, whether it's a physical challenge, (Bane) a mental one, (Joker) an intellectual one, (Riddler) an emotional one, (Catwoman) or a moral challenge (Two Face). I personally have yet to understand what Oswald brings to the table, but that's just me.

[LightningFlash]

Well, he brings a good amount to the table...he was vice president for eight years....

[Chris Wallace]

The narrative of Returns is not very good for me. But the characters make the movie.

I thought the characters AND the story were terrible. The high point for me was Michelle's performance, and even that couldn't overpower my hatred for her dialogue and characterization.

[Chris Wallace]

Hell yeah he can, He's ****ing batman.

Idealizing Batman is almost a guarantee for failure.

[Golgo-13]

It was mostly due to studio interference that third comic movies such as SM3 and X3 weren't on par with their predecessors. As long as WB stays out of Nolan's way I think he'll deliver a solid third film.

For instance if he doesn't want the movie in 3D, WB should respect his wishes and not force it upon him. This type of thing could cause him to bail(no pun intended) and we get some hack/yes man who screws everything up.

Let's not forget to add Blade 3 to that list as well. I would be pleasantly surprise if Batman 3 doesn't fall for the 3rd movie curse. We have never gotten a truly awesome superhero trilogy, to date. here's keeping my fingers crossed.

[Chris Wallace]

Blade Trinity is one movie that I feel could have benefitted from some interference. It seems to me that when Goyer was given complete autonomy that's when things went wrong.

[Batman4ever]

Last week a movie reviewer said he's seen the first 30 minutes of the film. He said Nolan has really outdone himself given the high bar he set for TDK.

Both he and Morgan Freeman said the opening sceen will "Blow your mind." and "Bring the crowd to their feet."

[Green Day]

Last week a movie reviewer said he's seen the first 30 minutes of the film. He said Nolan has really outdone himself given the high bar he set for TDK.

Both he and Morgan Freeman said the opening sceen will "Blow your mind." and "Bring the crowd to their feet."
I doubt anyone seen the first 30 minutes but I have heard that the opening sequence is amazing.

[joker1524]

I doubt anyone seen the first 30 minutes but I have heard that the opening sequence is amazing.

so we could be getting a prologue trailer then cuz the opening sequence for TDK was amazing:woot:

[HisMagicTrick]

I think that The Dark Knight Rises will do great, and definitely won’t be apart of this ‘curse’, but then again, I’m also someone who didn’t hate Spider-man 3... I didn’t love it, but I didn’t hate it.

[Godzilla2014]

I think that The Dark Knight Rises can do it, and I think it will. Then again, I thought Spider-Man 3 was going to do so, and look how turned out.

[Frontier]

Nolan stands a better chance than most.

Not to mention that he's yet to make a bad film, knock on wood.

That said, I think expectations from the main-stream will be too high from Dark Knight. They'll be expecting something superior and so, if we get something "on par" or "near par" it'll be viewed as a disappointment while really not being such.

[Godzilla2014]

Nolan stands a better chance than most.

Not to mention that he's yet to make a bad film, knock on wood.

That said, I think expectations from the main-stream will be too high from Dark Knight. They'll be expecting something superior and so, if we get something "on par" or "near par" it'll be viewed as a disappointment while really not being such.

Completely agree. With the fans, I think if it isn't better than "The Dark Knight", then it may be regarded as being worse than "Batman & Robin".

[Chris Wallace]

Probably right.

[Chris Wallace]

Gotta admit that I'm still skeptical at this point.

[TomPiltoff]

Though TDK is arguably more epic in scale than Begins, there's no question that Nolan has pre-planned this trilogy from the day he was hired and envisioned every chapter of this story on a large scale.

Completely untrue.

[Ponyboy]

Just off the top of my head I can't think of many "thirds" that are great. Indiana Jones maybe, seeing as how it's no longer a part of a trilogy. Are we counting final movies in trilogies? Back to the Future 3 was pretty good.

I hope Nolan's breaks the RECENT curse of hero thirds that suck (Last Stand, Blade 3)...

[Kahran Ramsus]

Most of the best third films tend to follow a second film that wasn't as popular (ex. Indiana Jones, Harry Potter). The only two series that I can think of that had what is generally considered to be a classic as the second film and then went above and beyond that for third, which is what will have to be done for Batman, are James Bond (which had From Russia with Love and followed up with Goldfinger) and The Dollars Trilogy (which had For a Few Dollars More and followed it with The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly). I personally think that Return of the King was better than The Two Towers, but that doesn't seem to be the consensus so I won't count it.

[Mister Meddle]

It'll probably be like the original Star Wars trilogy. The first film was good, the second was the best by a million miles and the third is just good with some great moments.

[Fudgie]

He's home and dry. The new movie looks real promising. No studio interference to muck it up either.

[Muta]

Just off the top of my head I can't think of many "thirds" that are great. Indiana Jones maybe, seeing as how it's no longer a part of a trilogy. Are we counting final movies in trilogies? Back to the Future 3 was pretty good.

I hope Nolan's breaks the RECENT curse of hero thirds that suck (Last Stand, Blade 3)...

The Bourne Ultimatum.

[BatmanGoesToRio]

I'm sure that Batman will escape the "Third Act Curse". The problem with comic book trilogies seems to be that they wanna put as much characters/villains as possible in it. X-Men 3 wasted / killed off so many interesting mutants, it's not funny.
For TDKR we have Bane. And Catwoman who may not be a "real" villain at all.
Even Two-Face wasn't a real villain in TDK.

[Chris Wallace]

Most of the best third films tend to follow a second film that wasn't as popular (ex. Indiana Jones, Harry Potter). The only two series that I can think of that had what is generally considered to be a classic as the second film and then went above and beyond that for third, which is what will have to be done for Batman, are James Bond (which had From Russia with Love and followed up with Goldfinger) and The Dollars Trilogy (which had For a Few Dollars More and followed it with The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly). I personally think that Return of the King was better than The Two Towers, but that doesn't seem to be the consensus so I won't count it.

This does NOT apply to the comic book genre. I think by & large the 2nd installment of a comic book franchise is the MOST popular.

[Godzilla2014]

This does NOT apply to the comic book genre. I think by & large the 2nd installment of a comic book franchise is the MOST popular.

I think the "Second Act Blessing" may be just as interesting to discuss as the "Third Act Curse", in my opinion.

[Chris Wallace]

I think you're right, Godzilla. Truth be told, it may be a contributing factor TO the "Third Act Curse".

[Godzilla2014]

I think you're right, Godzilla. Truth be told, it may be a contributing factor TO the "Third Act Curse".

I think it is, at least indirectly, as it contributes to the heightened expectations for the third installment.

[Chris Wallace]

That's what I meant. You raise the bar and have no idea how you're going to clear it.

[Godzilla2014]

That's what I meant. You raise the bar and have no idea how you're going to clear it.

True, though the strange part is that more often is the third "not as good as the first two" than it is "not as good as the second, but better than the first". Why? I don't know.

[Kurt Wagner]

Completely untrue.

Partially true.

[Kurt Wagner]

There are plenty of great trilogies...
The Godfather
Toy Story
Star Wars Episodes 4-6
Back to the Future
The Bourne Trilogy
Lord of the Rings

I doubt we have anything to worry about. Seriously. Nolan is a talented filmmaker, the script is strong, and there's a great cast involved in the project. Besides, the approach that Nolan takes to the Batman films makes it less likely this film will fail.

If anything, we should worry about the 4th film... What director might destroy the franchise?

[Chris Wallace]

There are plenty of great trilogies...
The Godfather
Toy Story
Star Wars Episodes 4-6
Back to the Future
The Bourne Trilogy
Lord of the Rings

I doubt we have anything to worry about. Seriously. Nolan is a talented filmmaker, the script is strong, and there's a great cast involved in the project. Besides, the approach that Nolan takes to the Batman films makes it less likely this film will fail.

If anything, we should worry about the 4th film... What director might destroy the franchise?

None of the movies that you listed are of THIS genre.

[Anno_Domini]

But Nolan's TDKR won't be going through the mistakes that other third films went through. That's almost a guarantee right there that Nolan's Batman trilogy will become the best CBM trilogy by having great 1st, 2nd and 3rd acts.

[I'm Not a Hero]

I hope it does. Nolan makes great movies. Don't know why he'd start flopping now.

[Chris Wallace]

Well when you look at the previous franchises that fell victim; we never saw it coming, at least not from the outset.

[Chris Wallace]

True, though the strange part is that more often is the third "not as good as the first two" than it is "not as good as the second, but better than the first". Why? I don't know.

If the expectations are raised & the 3rd one falls short, fans will attack and condemn it relentlessly.

[Godzilla2014]

Well when you look at the previous franchises that fell victim; we never saw it coming, at least not from the outset.

I saw worrying signs for Spider-Man 3. I just hoped they would work out in the final film.

If the expectations are raised & the 3rd one falls short, fans will attack and condemn it relentlessly.

True.

[henzINNIT]

At the same time, I think there is an understanding setting in that this will not surpass the hype of the second film already. The title sucks still.

[I'm Not a Hero]

I've decide recently to stop this kind of thinking. I'm just going to go into the movie with no expectations. By getting your hopes WAY up you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

If the movie is "just" as good as the first one, I'd be perfectly happy.

[Wolv3rin3]

I think it's going to have a hard job surpassing TDK but am hopeful that Nolan is going to deliver an awesome movie to end his trilogy - don't know a great deal about Bane so am not quite as excited about that as I was on hearing Joker was going to be in TDK.

[BH/HHH]

I think it will but I'm worried cause the trailer was poor in my opinion.

[Venom75]

I think it's inevitable that the third film will be a step down. The Dark Knight was so praised both critically and financially and is considered one of the greatest superhero films ever,that any movie following it will be looked at as inferior,no matter how good it may turn out to be.

[cloverfan98]

There are plenty of great trilogies...
The Godfather
Toy Story
Star Wars Episodes 4-6
Back to the Future
The Bourne Trilogy
Lord of the Rings

I doubt we have anything to worry about. Seriously. Nolan is a talented filmmaker, the script is strong, and there's a great cast involved in the project. Besides, the approach that Nolan takes to the Batman films makes it less likely this film will fail.

If anything, we should worry about the 4th film... What director might destroy the franchise?

I have had some issues with the last two Batman films and I'm nervous to see all these new villians. Even though I love SM3, thats the same kind of vibe I'm getting here. Plus I want to see some more great character development for Bruce/Batman. I don't want his story arc be eclipsed by the new and old villians. Plus I hate Catwoman. But these can be considered minor gripes. I'm sure this film will be awesome and I am looking forward to it. If any director can make me like Catwoman and give her an actual character its Nolan.

[TLH]

There are plenty of great trilogies...
The Godfather
Toy Story
Star Wars Episodes 4-6
Back to the Future
The Bourne Trilogy
Lord of the Rings

I agree and don't agree with some of the listings above...

Godfather - third movie is considered significantly weaker than first 2; hardly escapes the 3rd act curse
Toy Story - yes, a truly fantastic trilogy that gets better with each movie
Star Wars - see Toy Story
Back to the Future - a good trilogy, but the sequels are notable steps down from the first.
Bourne - solid trilogy, gets better with each film
LOTR - perfect trilogy, but really just one long film split into three portions

[Freedom77]

I am still puzzled as to how the "second act" is so revered.

[Alex Logan]

But Nolan's TDKR won't be going through the mistakes that other third films went through. That's almost a guarantee right there that Nolan's Batman trilogy will become the best CBM trilogy by having great 1st, 2nd and 3rd acts.

And you know why that is? No studio interference. Spiderman 3 sucked because there where too many people in the kitchen.

[BatLobsterRises]

A big reason I'm not concerned about this film suffering from the 3rd movie curse is I feel Nolan has been improving steadily with each film. As in, regardless of which is your favorite, I think in each film he's made since Memento, there's at least one area that he expands on or shows a marked improvement in.

At the same time, he's maintained a consistency and familiar quality about his work (which comes along with working with the same crew, writing and writing with Jonah, etc.) where he's established himself as an auteur.

So with that, I present my 8 reasons (one for each year that's passed since TDK :oldrazz:) why I personally feel this film will smash through that pesky curse and become one of the most revered film trilogies ever made:


The Dark Knight Rises will probably feel like an organic part of a whole, not just in that it brings the story full circle but simply in that it will most likely uphold the feel of the first two films.
Nolan will probably have employed every trick he knows, meaning everything he's learned as a filmmaker up through Inception.
He's consistently tried to make the scope of his films larger and larger and The Dark Knight Rises, by all accounts, seems to be on the grandest scale yet.
Where trying to go super "big" has probably backfired on a lot of third movies faced with the challenge of outdoing a huge second film, Nolan's insistence on story first should keep everything woven every tightly together as it did in TDK.
The mere fact that this is a definite conclusion means that the stakes must be higher than ever; a big story with big ideas should naturally manifest in gigantic action set pieces. There's no reason to hold back anything.
Nolan is well-aware of the "trilogy curse" and originally cited it as a possible reason not to to a third Bat-film in a 2008 interview. It's clear that the effort is being made to ensure that this film doesn't fall into a lot of the classic pitfalls of a misfired third movie.
Out of all the screenplays for this trilogy, this one had the most time to cook in the oven. There's no exact timeline out there, but based on what we know about when Bane was decided on by Nolan and Goyer, it's reasonable to believe Jonah had started work on the script at some point in late 2008/early 2009. That's a whole 2 to 2 1/2 years of work before it was passed off to C-Nol to polish off. Extremely long time. This doesn't necessarily mean that it's a better script than The Dark Knight. Jonah Nolan said it took him only a few weeks to hammer out a first draft of TDK with Chris/Goyer's outline. Let's face it, Jonah being the fan that he is, fleshing out a super dramatic Batman/Joker/Harvey story was probably like stealing candy from a baby. This movie presented a greater challenge, and it probably took a lot of time to work through it. The main thing is that this was not rushed by any means, and hopefully Jonah slugging it out for all that time by himself yielded some potent stuff.
Most important of all: http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/kryptonianmike/NolanNoob.png

:cwink:

[Freedom77]

A big reason I'm not concerned about this film suffering from the 3rd movie curse is I feel Nolan has been improving steadily with each film. As in, regardless of which is your favorite, I think in each film he's made since Memento, there's at least one area that he expands on or shows a marked improvement in.
:cwink:

I absolutely disagree. I feel both The Dark Knight and Inception are his worst films. The Dark Knight more so.

I fear Nolan may just want to remake the success and hence create another clumsy mess. Except this time it won't be tied down to any outstanding performance.

I swear, if people start saying that this film ruined the trilogy... I'll scream!

[El Payaso]

The Dark Knight Rises will probably feel like an organic part of a whole, not just in that it brings the story full circle but simply in that it will most likely uphold the feel of the first two films.


For me, it's the main one.

It's all planned in 3 parts. That changes everything. Because for part three, most of stories claim for and ending or some kind of change.

You were talking about Spider-man 3. To me, Venom or not, the problem was that they had to do something more extreme but at the same time they had to be thinking in leaving stuff for the fourth movie. That's how there's a convulted Peter-Mary Jane arc there, but in the end they end up without much change.

[BatLobsterRises]

[/LIST]

For me, it's the main one.

It's all planned in 3 parts. That changes everything. Because for part three, most of stories claim for and ending or some kind of change.

You were talking about Spider-man 3. To me, Venom or not, the problem was that they had to do something more extreme but at the same time they had to be thinking in leaving stuff for the fourth movie. That's how there's a convulted Peter-Mary Jane arc there, but in the end they end up without much change.

Definitely. I'm not even the biggest Spidey 3 hater in the world, though it's frustrating in that it was a missed opportunity in many ways. But yeah, it felt like a half-assed conclusion that had the scale you'd expect from an ending, but that's about it. Besides Harry's character arch, it didn't really wrap anything up. The theme of the film, forgiveness, was not a bad one to have but it felt like Peter's "lesson of the day", not something that unified all three movies.

So in short, you're absolutely right that you can't do a third/ending movie justice if there are plans in place to make more movies.

[Green Day]

I am hoping this can, reason to worry
1. Too many new characters
2. Tooo much hype from TDK people will expect this film to be better
4. Bane's dialog
5. Catwoman could be bad, Nolan is not the best at writing woman charaters
6. The ending could be bad
7. Too much in one film so the film will fill rushed.

[Chris Wallace]

Seeing Selina's costume doesn't raise my hopes.
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l608/coaltiger2614/the-dark-knight-rises-entertainment-weekly-cover.jpg

[Caekzor]

Yeah... if only she had a cowl with cat ears then we would know this film will be amazing!

[Chris Wallace]

Bad approach to the costume almost always goes hand in hand with a bad approach to the film.

[Chris Wallace]

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l608/coaltiger2614/avengersbatman.jpg

[DoomsdayApex]

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l608/coaltiger2614/avengersbatman.jpg


These types of images are gonna appear mighty foolish after July 20th.

[presidentsaad]

Nolan said he wouldn't do another movie just to make a movie, but to do it on an emotionally-attached level. I think that says something here not said in other trilogies.

[Art Damage]

Exactly, I'm sure this movie is going to be fantastic.

Also, I normally hang out on the spoiler side of the forums (that's all I ever went to in 07/08 for TDK) but the release of too many spoilers is making me want to wait it out and hang here till July 20th. Haha.

[Spider-Fan83]

in all fairness I think they already escape the "Third Act Curse"...

as the supposed "Curse" of third movies usually is the result of a radical change in direction, based on studio influence, changing cast, crew and/or director...ect

which this movie managed to avoid for the most part

tho, the down side to that is there will be no excuse, or scapegoat if this movie does fail

[LegendaryCaleb]

Bad approach to the costume almost always goes hand in hand with a bad approach to the film.
yeah that dark knight movie that came out in 2008 sucked cause people didnt like batmans costume...this is just as doomed as the dark knight...............:whatever:
(your marvel fanboy is showing)

[KangConquers]

This movie has so much more attached to it than Spider-Man 3 and X-3 did though. The Dark Knight wasn't just a hit movie, it almost carved out a sub-culture. "Nolanites."

I have a feeling there will be very few mixed reactions to this film. Aside from being a hit (1 Billion is guaranteed regardless), fans are either going to build themselves into such a frenzy that after they see it, they will only be able to label it a masterpiece or a failure, nothing in between.

[Chris Wallace]

These types of images are gonna appear mighty foolish after July 20th.

Maybe, maybe not.

[KangConquers]

These types of images are gonna appear mighty foolish after July 20th.

$207 M OW is far from guaranteed...nor is a 93% fresh on RT. TDKR has an uphill battle against Avengers the same way Avengers had an uphill battle against TDK, which had an uphill battle against Raimi Spider-Man.

Just like a presidential election, the incumbent is always favored.

[Nevincer]

He already has.

[DoomsdayApex]

Maybe, maybe not.

Then obviously you haven't been following the film quite well.

$207 M OW is far from guaranteed...nor is a 93% fresh on RT. TDKR has an uphill battle against Avengers the same way Avengers had an uphill battle against TDK, which had an uphill battle against Raimi Spider-Man.

Just like a presidential election, the incumbent is always favored.

TDKR is tracking incredibly strong right now, and we're still in June. Several Box Office based sites are predicting a +180m opening weekend (190m recently) for Nolan's finale.

There is no uphill battle. The Avengers won't affect TDKR's performance (two different films on two different spectrums), and TASM hasn't been able to match the hype that The Avengers and TDKR have received.

The only question that remains is whether or not TDKR will surpass TDK's quality and if Nolan can top himself after setting the standard, and judging by trailers and tv spots, it's highly probable.

[Batman jr.]

It's too early, but I think, from all the "footage" we've seen, that he might have topped TDK. And even if it doesn't beat The Avengers (which was helped because it's in stupid 3D, and don't say I'm da Nolunfanboy, troll, or whatever), it'll be a big succes no doubt.

But I'm more interested in the quality. He has to deliver. He has set the bar almost too high.

[DoomsdayApex]

It's too early, but I think, from all the "footage" we've seen, that he might have topped TDK. And even if it doesn't beat The Avengers (which was helped because it's in stupid 3D, and don't say I'm da Nolunfanboy, troll, or whatever), it'll be a big succes no doubt.

But I'm more interested in the quality. He has to deliver. He has set the bar almost too high.

I don't see TDKR breaking the OW record either, but if TDKR grosses 190m then it'll unarguably make a statement for all non-3D movies. With that said, I don't give a flying **** about Box Office records. I just want TDKR to be a phenomenal film.

It's about Bruce's emotional journey coming to an end. Nolan has a chance to do something extremely unprecedented and ballsy here.

[Batman jr.]

I don't see TDKR breaking the OW record either, but if TDKR grosses 190m then it'll unarguably make a statement for all non-3D movies. With that said, I don't give a flying **** about Box Office records. I just want TDKR to be a phenomenal film.

It's about Bruce's emotional journey coming to an end. Nolan has a chance to do something extremely unprecedented and ballsy here.

It'll be hard to beat the OW record, but when I said "top" I was more referring to the quality of TDK. :cwink::yay:

[Batman jr.]

Maybe, maybe not.

Yeah. :whatever:

[The Joker]

Maybe, maybe not.

It's in the bag, Chris. TDKR looks amazing. No bad vibes from it. With less than a month away from release we'd know by now if there was.

[Aggressive Sock]

Long thought out post warning! :p

I'm not too worried about it beating Avengers when it comes to the box office. It's not in 3D, it's a longer movie(less showings in a day), it's for a more mature audience(Avengers appeals to everyone, whereas Nolan's Batman has been darker and not so kid friendly), and finally it's opening up to more competition. That's all working against it, they aren't excuses to make up for a poor box office performance, as I am sure it will still do great just as TDK did, but to expect it to beat Avengers...it's not as important given all the factors at hand.

It's about quality.

I just hope the reviews are positive, and the movie can stand up against Batman Begins and The Dark Knight in terms of quality, and an argument can be made on which is better. Some people like Begins more than Dark Knight, and all I hope is that this movie can be on par with the other two highly praised films. It doesn't have to be better than either, it just has to be on par. That's it. I hope fans don't let their hype and expectations make or break the movie, and treat it with the black and white approach. It doesn't have to be amazing or crap. It can be great, but not be better than Dark Knight.

With that said, I hope and believe, that this movie will be the exception to the curse. I believe it will be on par with the other two and this series will be great from start to end. Be it not as good as the other two, better, or equal to, it'll be good enough to be on par.

As stated before, Nolan only made The Dark Knight because he felt it was a great story that was worth telling. Same goes for Rises. I remember when the word was that there would be no 3rd. However, after his vacation and giving it some thought with his brother who he writes with, he thought of another great story that caps the franchise well. Heck, he even said in an interview that one of the reasons he was hesitant to do a follow up the Dark Knight, was because he knows how often trilogies dip in quality, especially with the 3rd. It takes a lot of effort and a tremendous story, to wow an audience effectively catching lightning in a bottle 3 times in a row. It was never a for sure thing. He isn't in it for the money grab or easy check, as proven with the fact that he is calling it quits after Rises. If he just wanted money and didn't care to give a great story, i'm sure WB would be dying to keep him and have probably offered him the moon to get him to stay.

Point being, if he didn't think he could top what he has already done, or at the very least make a movie that's on par with the previous two, he had no reason to ultimately do it. He could have left it at the two and leave on a high note. He's confident, and we have no reason to doubt his ability to make it happen. He's had around 10 movies so far, all of them have been good-amazing in most people's eyes.

Beyond the points in his favor already made, it's also worth noting as discussed earlier in the thread, he's a rare case. He has directed the past 2 movies. The cast has been the same(Rachel being the exception, but not a big difference), and they all seem to have chemistry and get along, and Nolan sees something in people that bring to the table what he's looking for. The writing team has been the same. He and his brother work on the writing, so obviously the process is very cooperative and streamlined, with little kinks or internal issues. Finally, he seems to be given full freedom, no meddling or interferance from WB, as proven with him choosing the villains he wants, and him walking away when he wants etc. They know he knows what he's doing, and they let him do his thing. No forced villains or themes to sell toys etc. No re-writes making things more kid friendly or taking out key plot points etc.

Lastly, I will point out 1 last factor in Nolan's favor. The Dark Knight Rises looks to have a different feel than Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. At first it threw me off guard and I didn't know what to think, but after watching the 1st trailer a few times I was excited for a different feel. If it follows the same steps as Dark Knight, it's gonna get panned. It needs to play the same melody, but hitting different notes. The Dark Knight had a different feel than Begins and it worked. Far too many sequels of successful movies, especially the 3rd, try and be too different to the point it loses what made the 1st and/or 2nd good, or they play it safe and make it just more of the same and offer little to nothing new, leaving the audience wondering what the point was. Examples of each being Spider-man 3 being too different(cramming way too much in, and everything feeling underdeveloped and rushed), and Iron Man 2 not being different enough(imo it felt like just more of the same).

So there's really no reason for this to fail. If it does it's all on him, the actors, and the writing. With everything on his side for why it will succeed, I fully believe we will get an on par film if not better than the previous two.

[LaraP]

As long as TDKR is on par with Batman Begins AND The Dark Knight, I'm going to be so, so happy. I agree w/others who've said that if something was seriously wrong, we'd have at least heard whisperings about it by now.

[Anno_Domini]

The question - Can Batman escape the "Third Act CBM Curse"?

The answer - YES.

[Anno_Domini]

The question - Can Batman escape the "Third Act CBM Curse"?

The answer - YES.

After watching TDKR, my post is accurate.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l608/coaltiger2614/avengersbatman.jpg

These types of images are gonna appear mighty foolish after July 20th.

Mighty foolish indeed.

[psylockolussus]

Even though I'm not a big fan of this film. I think it already escaped the third-act curse. In terms of quality, it is consistent with BB and TDK (TDRK got 86% in RT). In terms of box-office success, it looks like this movie is at least gonna get $300 million at the domestic box-office.

[Suppis]

I would say this is one if not the best movie trilogy ever.

[Drizzle]

Mighty foolish indeed.
The Avengers does have the upper hand in both opening weekend box office as well as critic approval (at least according to Rotten Tomatoes). I'm not trolling as I loved both movies, but that's the truth of it.

[Anno_Domini]

The Avengers does have the upper hand in both opening weekend box office as well as critic approval (at least according to Rotten Tomatoes). I'm not trolling as I loved both movies, but that's the truth of it.

The Avengers' opening weekend had 3D and no tragedy.

[DoomsdayApex]

The Avengers does have the upper hand in both opening weekend box office as well as critic approval (at least according to Rotten Tomatoes). I'm not trolling as I loved both movies, but that's the truth of it.

And yet Rotten Tomatoes is one website. TDKR has a higher score/rating on Critics Choice, Metacritic and IMDB. TDKR also has an 'A' on Cinemascore.

The critical praise is pretty even. A 6% difference on Rotten Tomatoes is not an upperhand.

[TLH]

As of right now, Batman has the best superhero trilogy in existence, and one of the best cinematic trilogies of all-time, to his name. Anyone who would dispute this has a long, difficult fight ahead of them.

The Avengers franchise, however, still has to deliver two more movies with no real missteps to even enter the talk with Batman. And that's an EXTREMELY difficult task it has ahead of itself.

So yeah, Avengers wins the box office battle with a 3D boost and no tragedy. And you know what, it probably would have won anyway (I'm not going to fool myself), but people need to stop making it out like it's some huge victory.

In the end, the quality of the movies is what endures and what people remember. TDK Trilogy is destined to be a classic. Can't say the same for The Avengers... yet.

[bullets]

As of right now, Batman has the best superhero trilogy in existence, and one of the best cinematic trilogies of all-time, to his name. Anyone who would dispute this has a long, difficult fight ahead of them.

The Avengers franchise, however, still has to deliver two more movies with no real missteps to even enter the talk with Batman. And that's an EXTREMELY difficult task it has ahead of itself.

So yeah, Avengers wins the box office battle with a 3D boost and no tragedy. And you know what, it probably would have won anyway (I'm not going to fool myself), but people need to stop making it out like it's some huge victory.

In the end, the quality of the movies is what endures and what people remember. TDK Trilogy is destined to be a classic. Can't say the same for The Avengers... yet.


I don't understand the incessant need to compare the two. I'm glad both franchises did well. The Dark Knight Rises is a satisfying conclusion and easily broke the third act curse. Unfortunately the trilogy is plagued with real life tragedies.

[henzINNIT]

TDKR didn't escape the second sequel curse for me, much to my surprise and disappointment. It was of higher quality than most 3rd outings but still had the same basic problems; bloated story, too many characters, weak villain motivation and ultimately a pretty underwhelming climax.

[TLH]

I don't understand the incessant need to compare the two. I'm glad both franchises did well. The Dark Knight Rises is a satisfying conclusion and easily broke the third act curse. Unfortunately the trilogy is plagued with real life tragedies.

Oh absolutely. I wasn't planning on comparing them, but found it strange when I came in this thread and saw it happening. Couldn't help but comment.

TDKR didn't escape the second sequel curse for me, much to my surprise and disappointment. It was of higher quality than most 3rd outings but still had the same basic problems; bloated story, too many characters, weak villain motivation and ultimately a pretty underwhelming climax.

Glad I don't share this minority opinion. It wasn't flawless (needed to be a touch longer to develop a few minor plot points) but other than that, I loved it. Excellent final film and satisfying conclusion, just shy of TDK.

[Anno_Domini]

As of right now, Batman has the best superhero trilogy in existence, and one of the best cinematic trilogies of all-time, to his name. Anyone who would dispute this has a long, difficult fight ahead of them.

The Avengers franchise, however, still has to deliver two more movies with no real missteps to even enter the talk with Batman. And that's an EXTREMELY difficult task it has ahead of itself.

So yeah, Avengers wins the box office battle with a 3D boost and no tragedy. And you know what, it probably would have won anyway (I'm not going to fool myself), but people need to stop making it out like it's some huge victory.

In the end, the quality of the movies is what endures and what people remember. TDK Trilogy is destined to be a classic. Can't say the same for The Avengers... yet.

The last sentence particularly :up:

TDKR didn't escape the second sequel curse for me, much to my surprise and disappointment. It was of higher quality than most 3rd outings but still had the same basic problems; bloated story, too many characters, weak villain motivation and ultimately a pretty underwhelming climax.

Didn't The Dark Knight have more characters?

[DoomsdayApex]

My point being, The Avengers didn't come close to overshadowing TDKR (as Chris Wallace's post insisted). The villain [Bane] was ingrained into pop-culture by political pundits, activists and comedians with the hysterical comparisons of Romney's Bain Capital to Bane -- on an Election Year. Then, of course, we have the iconic role in Catwoman where the actress' portrayal is being raved about in virtually every critical [positive and negative] review.

Sadly, TDKR will be not be eclipsed by any film this year (most notably) thanks to that lunatic who shot up a theater and killed 14 innocent people and wounded 70 others. :csad:

[henzINNIT]

Didn't The Dark Knight have more characters?

Not really. The only important new characters were the Joker and Dent, who were both used well.

With this, you have Blake, Catwoman, Bane & Talia all competing for some spotlight with varying degrees of success. Hathaway was great and felt well implemented. Not so much with the others, and I thought Cottilard's role was particularly half-baked and a dull performance.

[Anno_Domini]

But then you had Maroni, the Chechen, Mr. Reese, Ramirez, Wuertz, Stephens, Lau, even Gambol if you want to count him. I feel that TDK had more even if more minor characters. Still more characters.

Although I do agree that there should've been more to do with Tate; Blake, Bane and Selina were given quite enough for the audience to appreciate them.

[The Joker]

But then you had Maroni, the Chechen, Mr. Reese, Ramirez, Wuertz, Stephens, Lau, even Gambol if you want to count him. I feel that TDK had more even if more minor characters. Still more characters.

Every one of them were more interesting than Foley.

[Anno_Domini]

Every one of them were more interesting than Foley.

Which is probably why I clapped my hands when Foley was laying on the concrete floor, lol.

Seriously, I don't know why the character was even created in the first place since there wasn't a Deputy Commissioner walking around trying to still Loeb's position in BB/TDK.

[Baneis8feettall]

I'm glad movie escaped the "Third Act Curse" but i was expecting it, so surprise.

[FlawlessVictory]

As of right now, Batman has the best superhero trilogy in existence, and one of the best cinematic trilogies of all-time, to his name. Anyone who would dispute this has a long, difficult fight ahead of them.

The Avengers franchise, however, still has to deliver two more movies with no real missteps to even enter the talk with Batman. And that's an EXTREMELY difficult task it has ahead of itself.

So yeah, Avengers wins the box office battle with a 3D boost and no tragedy. And you know what, it probably would have won anyway (I'm not going to fool myself), but people need to stop making it out like it's some huge victory.

In the end, the quality of the movies is what endures and what people remember. TDK Trilogy is destined to be a classic. Can't say the same for The Avengers... yet.

Agreed. The Avengers is fantastic but lets see where the quality of The Avengers franchise is when it reaches its third film. And the fact that it takes an all-star lineup of superheroes to compare to this Batman franchise speaks volumes to the quality and success of this franchise.

And it becomes tricky now with The Avengers franchise because its doubtful you will be able to just sit and watch The Avengers 1-3 and have it be completely cohesive. Other Marvel single franchise films will occur in between The Avengers films filling in the story in some way. So it won't be a trilogy in its truest sense. Same goes with Iron Man 3 but I felt that franchise already had a slight misstep in quality with Iron Man 2 (still a good film though).

This Batman franchise is without question one of the greatest trilogies ever made in cinema.

[BlackFox]

Not only did it escape the curse, it crushed it beneath its bat boot.

One of the best trilogies made period, of any genre not just comic books so yeah it did well.

[Alex Logan]

As of right now, Batman has the best superhero trilogy in existence, and one of the best cinematic trilogies of all-time, to his name. Anyone who would dispute this has a long, difficult fight ahead of them.

The Avengers franchise, however, still has to deliver two more movies with no real missteps to even enter the talk with Batman. And that's an EXTREMELY difficult task it has ahead of itself.

So yeah, Avengers wins the box office battle with a 3D boost and no tragedy. And you know what, it probably would have won anyway (I'm not going to fool myself), but people need to stop making it out like it's some huge victory.

In the end, the quality of the movies is what endures and what people remember. TDK Trilogy is destined to be a classic. Can't say the same for The Avengers... yet.

This.

[KalMart]

It didn't escape it completely, but it did fight through it quite better than most. Interestingly, some of the things that were kind of designed to not suffered a third film curse actually hurt it a bit.

But for all intents and purposes, it was one of very few third/last installments that weren't embarrassingly bad, and that's quite an achievement.

[BlackFox]

As of right now, Batman has the best superhero trilogy in existence, and one of the best cinematic trilogies of all-time, to his name. Anyone who would dispute this has a long, difficult fight ahead of them.

The Avengers franchise, however, still has to deliver two more movies with no real missteps to even enter the talk with Batman. And that's an EXTREMELY difficult task it has ahead of itself.

So yeah, Avengers wins the box office battle with a 3D boost and no tragedy. And you know what, it probably would have won anyway (I'm not going to fool myself), but people need to stop making it out like it's some huge victory.

In the end, the quality of the movies is what endures and what people remember. TDK Trilogy is destined to be a classic. Can't say the same for The Avengers... yet.

"Maybe It’s Time We Stopped Trying to Outsmart the Truth, and Let It Have Its Day"

[Alex Logan]

It didn't escape it completely.

Yes... it did.

[Jick09]

Completely.

[FlawlessVictory]

It didn't escape it completely

A third movie in a trilogy that has an 87% critical rating (average 8/10) and a 92% audience rating (average 4.5/5) in Rotten Tomatoes, is currently in the top 25 of IMDb Top 250 movies of all time with a rating of 8.9 and will have grossed at least a billion WW at the end of its theatrical run.

It has escaped it. Completely.

What else could you realistically expect? :huh:

[Alex Logan]

A third movie in a trilogy that has an 87% critical rating (average 8/10) and a 92% audience rating (average 4.5/5) in Rotten Tomatoes, is currently in the top 25 of IMDb Top 250 movies of all time with a rating of 8.9 and will have grossed at least a billion WW at the end of its theatrical run.

It has escaped it. Completely.

What else could you realistically expect? :huh:

The second coming... and people like that set themselves up for disappointment.

[Bruce_Begins]

I think some people wanted it to earn more than what previous movie earned domestically.

As the overseas collections for TDKR is more than that of TDK, some wanted the same thing for the domestic collections, but there are several reasons why that did not happen.

[Alex Logan]

I think some people wanted it to earn more than what previous movie earned domestically.

That's only one reason why people are saying it's not good.

As the overseas collections for TDKR is more than that of TDK, some wanted the same thing for the domestic collections, but there are several reasons why that did not happen.

What do you think those reasons are? I have my own ideas, but I would like to hear another take on it.

[KalMart]

A third movie in a trilogy that has an 87% critical rating (average 8/10) and a 92% audience rating (average 4.5/5) in Rotten Tomatoes, is currently in the top 25 of IMDb Top 250 movies of all time with a rating of 8.9 and will have grossed at least a billion WW at the end of its theatrical run.

It has escaped it. Completely.

What else could you realistically expect? :huh:

As I said, it comes down to more than just money and ratings, as it also clearly has some issues that are both inherent to its story and delivery, and part of the unfortunate baggage that comes with making a third movie of anything. And it is, to me and many, the weakest of the three movies although not by much. But more aptly, it's not really a 'curse' that makes third movies so much more susceptible to disappointing as if some stroke of bad luck. But for all intents and purposes comparing it to the awful efforts we've come to expect in third movies, it's rare in being very successful in still being very good, and overcoming a lot more of those pitfalls than most.

[BatLobsterRises]

Nah, it definitely escaped the curse. It did what all third movies in these kinds of series should be striving for, but rarely reach...

It was darker, bleaker and raised the stakes to an unprecedented level. It took the series yet again into different genres. Yet, it concluded the hero's journey on a hopeful note, and gave a great resolution to all the characters and themes that were explored over the three films.

It's everything a third film should be. It didn't escape the curse in that it was a clearcut better film than the last two, because people are always going to have opinions about which was the best of the 3 (another sign of a great trilogy)...it escaped the obvious creative exhaustion and inability to raise the stakes from the second movie in an effective way that a lot of third movies suffer from. If anything, TDKR is almost too robust and too ripe with thematic and story ideas to contain everything in one film, but that's still a victory over the factors that have always contributed to "the curse". And the film still essentially pulled it off IMO.

[KalMart]

Put it this way, it did incredibly well in being less affected by it than most.

[Alex Logan]

As I said, it comes down to more than just money and ratings, as it also clearly has some issues that are both inherent to its story and delivery, and part of the unfortunate baggage that comes with making a third movie of anything. And it is, to me and many, the weakest of the three movies although not by much. But more aptly, it's not really a 'curse' that makes third movies so much more susceptible to disappointing as if some stroke of bad luck. But for all intents and purposes comparing it to the awful efforts we've come to expect in third movies, it's rare in being very successful in still being very good, and overcoming a lot more of those pitfalls than most.

So what is it about the film that you don't like?

[KalMart]

So what is about the film that you don't like?

I don't want to make it sound I hated things about it, because I really didn't. Mostly, I felt it tried to pack too much in and ended up feeling both rushed and to condensed in a lot of areas. Unlike some who feel that it could have benefited from another 15-20 minutes I felt it could have had more trimming of characters and story elements in writing to give what was left it more breathing room. And it also seemed so intent on 'wrapping up' so neatly that it felt a bit too obliged to keep moving briskly along when it could have then a bit more time to spread its wings in some areas. It didn't make it a bad movie, per se, but there was a sense of a certain 'magic' from the previous two wearing off and that it was just enough time for it to get out with its head still held high....some of which can naturally happen to any third movie after really defining itself over the previous two. And some of the things that we kind of 'let slide' in the other movies like the surplus of verbalized exposition and such started to finally get more burdensome.

Basically, a 7.5/10 for me, with BB being a. 8.5 and TDk a 9-9.5/10. But again, not a bad movie, and it did its job quite well in putting a bow on this series. So I certainly wouldn't NOT recommend anyone seeing it, whereas other movies that I do actually find bad I would strongly suggest against unless it was just killing time on Netflix.

[pr0xyt0xin]

Not a bad movie. Thus I think TDKR escaped the Third Act Curse.

Has any other CBM done it?

Did Nolan save CBMs in yet another way?!

<3 :hope:

[Tequilla]

There is no curse. There is good and bad filmmaking.

Rises is tremendous film making. Technically and Thematically.

[Chris Wallace]

First off, I think there's been some misconception as to my meaning. When I refer to the "Third Act Curse", I do not mean that by some supernatural means all third films are inherently predestined to suck/do badly. I am referring to a PATTERN that has existed for quite some time, unbroken until, ironically, now.
I do feel that Rises has escaped this pattern. While not without its faults, it is overall both the best third act of the genre thus far AND the best of the trilogy. While I wasn't crazy about the ending, HATED the costumes and Bane's voice I personally found off-putting,* it avoided the common pitfalls of the likes of Spider-Man 3 and X3, and the general good points of the movie greatly outweighed the bad. All in all, I do feel that it's a worthwhile film and the second-best movie I've seen this year. And that's saying a LOT.












*Don't be offended-this is all my opinion. Ain't nothin' that I'm sayin' law.

[Alex Logan]

All in all, I do feel that it's a worthwhile film and the second-best movie I've seen this year. And that's saying a LOT.

What would be your first?

[jaqua99]

See I don't even consider the Nolan trilogy to be comic book movies. I see it more as action/crime dramas staring comic book characters, opposed to an actual comic book movie, that really really embraces the source material, like avengers did.

Though this was a good movie, not as good as the Dark Knight, and not as good as BB, but it certainly didn't get caught up in the Third Movie Curse.





Spiderman 3

[Anno_Domini]

:huh:

If it's starring comic book characters...wouldn't it still be a CBM?

[TheGuy]

See I don't even consider the Nolan trilogy to be comic book movies. I see it more as action/crime dramas staring comic book characters, opposed to an actual comic book movie, that really really embraces the source material, like avengers did.
:dry:

[jaqua99]

:huh:

If it's starring comic book characters...wouldn't it still be a CBM?

:dry:

Clearly you don't get my point lol.

they were amazing movies.

[Human Torch]

I never really bought into the 3rd film curse business.Most of my favorate films are 3rd acts.Jedi is my all time favorite.Last Crusade,Army of Darkness,Return of the king-all strong films.

In the comic genre it's a bit closer,but I like S-M3 better than 2,X3 almost as much as X2 and personally,I think Batman Forever was the best of the 90's Batfilms.

Having said that,ironically I think TDKR is the weakest of the trilogy.But it's still a great movie.

[Anno_Domini]

I never really bought into the 3rd film curse business.Most of my favorate films are 3rd acts.Jedi is my all time favorite.Last Crusade,Army of Darkness,Return of the king-all strong films.

In the comic genre it's a bit closer,but I like S-M3 better than 2,X3 almost as much as X2 and personally,I think Batman Forever was the best of the 90's Batfilms.

Having said that,ironically I think TDKR is the weakest of the trilogy.But it's still a great movie.

http://edschultzmsnbc.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/shocked-face.jpg?w=640

[Deathlok]

I never really bought into the 3rd film curse business.Most of my favorate films are 3rd acts.Jedi is my all time favorite.Last Crusade,Army of Darkness,Return of the king-all strong films.

In the comic genre it's a bit closer,but I like S-M3 better than 2,X3 almost as much as X2 and personally,I think Batman Forever was the best of the 90's Batfilms.

Having said that,ironically I think TDKR is the weakest of the trilogy.But it's still a great movie.

Exactly what I think. TDKR was a good film, but it pales in comparison to TDK and I also believe it is not as good as Batman Begins.

I guess I feel a bit disappointed as I was hoping for something even better than TDK for the conclusion, and for me it did not occur.

[TheGuy]

http://edschultzmsnbc.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/shocked-face.jpg?w=640
Same reaction. LOL. But to each his own.

[Alex Logan]

http://edschultzmsnbc.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/shocked-face.jpg?w=640

Exactly.

There are a few great "3rd act films", but most of those are in no way great.

Last Crusade
Jedi
Return Of the King
At Worlds End
Back to the Future
And... TDKR

[Anno_Domini]

Exactly what I think. TDKR was a good film, but it pales in comparison to TDK and I also believe it is not as good as Batman Begins.

I guess I feel a bit disappointed as I was hoping for something even better than TDK for the conclusion, and for me it did not occur.

Anticipation and hype does that.

I never had much anticipation for any of Nolan's Batfilms simply because I believe in the director and he's never failed me(except for Insomnia, sadly), and since I didn't expect much, I came out of the midnight showing loving TDKR. To me, TDKR is the best of the trilogy, but to each their own.

Exactly.

There are a few great "3rd act films", but most of those are in no way great.

Last Crusade
Jedi
Return Of the King
At Worlds End
Back to the Future
And... TDKR

Plus...as a CBM, TDKR does indeed break the curse. Spider-Man 3, X-Men: The Last Stand, Batman Forever, Blade: Trinity, Superman III, whichever ones I forget...please. They can't hold a candle, let alone a matchstick, to The Dark Knight Rises.

[Human Torch]

I don't get the hate for Spider-man 3 in the first place,but the same objections for that film can be found in TDKR:

The villain's being "reinterpreted" somewhat differently from the comic
A new "love interest" being hastily thrown at the hero (Miranda/Gwen)
A last act reworking of a villain's origin (Sandman/Ra's)
The main objective being the same in all three films (Save MJ....again/Save Gotham from a terrorist attack...again)
The Butler making an important revelation that he should have made several years earlier.

There are probably others that I'm forgetting,but my point is not to say TDKR is awful,but that SM 3 isn't any more flawed than TDKR.

[Coca Cola Duracell Franklin.]

I don't get the hate for Spider-man 3 in the first place,but the same objections for that film can be found in TDKR:

The villain's being "reinterpreted" somewhat differently from the comic
A new "love interest" being hastily thrown at the hero (Miranda/Gwen)
A last act reworking of a villain's origin (Sandman/Ra's)
The main objective being the same in all three films (Save MJ....again/Save Gotham from a terrorist attack...again)
The Butler making an important revelation that he should have made several years earlier.

There are probably others that I'm forgetting,but my point is not to say TDKR is awful,but that SM 3 isn't any more flawed than TDKR.
Unfortunately for your "point," the execution of Spider-man 3 was far worse than the execution of TDKR.

[Human Torch]

Er....not so.

[Anno_Domini]

I don't get the hate for Spider-man 3 in the first place,but the same objections for that film can be found in TDKR:

The villain's being "reinterpreted" somewhat differently from the comic

Bane is an example of how a villain can be envisioned the correct way to fit the director's universe.

Sandman is an example how the new vision can be complete trash and a waste of time with no conclusion or meaning to the story.

A new "love interest" being hastily thrown at the hero (Miranda/Gwen)

Miranda wasn't even much of a love interest to begin with. Another example that doesn't make sense.

A last act reworking of a villain's origin (Sandman/Ra's)

What? What in TDKR re-worked Ra's al Ghul's origin?

The main objective being the same in all three films (Save MJ....again/Save Gotham from a terrorist attack...again)

Saving the city > saving Mary Jane

Spider-Man could save his city from a threat as well, but he's always saving MJ while Batman had saved Rachel a couple times, but also the city.

The Butler making an important revelation that he should have made several years earlier.

The audience is aware of what Alfred was hiding while the audience had no idea that Harry's butler knew about Norman's wounds and him being Green Goblin.

There are probably others that I'm forgetting,but my point is not to say TDKR is awful,but that SM 3 isn't any more flawed than TDKR.

I'd love to hear any more "comparisons" you have, haha.

Unfortunately for your "point," the execution of Spider-man 3 was far worse than the execution of TDKR.

:up:

[Human Torch]

Sandman was given a motivation.Since he was a simple thug in the comics,it was needed.The real comparison is not with Bane but with Talia,who is given a completely different motivation than the comics.(Revenge in honor of a dead father whom she hated?)

"Miranda wasn't even much of a love interest to begin with." My point exactly.:o Seriously though,Bruce sleeps with her after meeting her like twice in his life for a total of 10 minutes?With Gwen there was no pretense of a real love interest for Peter,just a reason to cause friction between him and MJ.

Ra's flashback-story seemed as hastily conceived as Sandman killing Uncle Ben.You can't tell me either was planned from the beginning in either case.

Spider-Man did save the city in S-M 2


I'll concede TDKR Butler scene is better executed (Thanks in large part to Caine) but it's still pretty stupid.Didn't Alfred think Bruce would become more withdrawn thinking his true love died wanting to be with him?

I really don't want to be in a place of "bashing" the film,as I enjoyed it very much (I gave it 9/10 on the Rate poll),and if it's your favorite of the 3,that's fine.(I like Spidey 3 more than 2.Does that make it a "better" film?Nope.I just enjoy it more.)

But people who want to wave the banner of "1st perfect trilogy!" and "1st flawless 3rd act!" are either seeing it through rose tinted glasses or have clearly seen a different movie than most of us.

[Anno_Domini]

Sandman was given a motivation.Since he was a simple thug in the comics,it was needed.The real comparison is not with Bane but with Talia,who is given a completely different motivation than the comics.(Revenge in honor of a dead father whom she hated?)

Sandman has motivation, yes, but his motivation faded into darkness into the film that really killed that entire storyline.

And Talia said her hatred was basically thrown to wayside because of her father dying.

"Miranda wasn't even much of a love interest to begin with." My point exactly.:o Seriously though,Bruce sleeps with her after meeting her like twice in his life for a total of 10 minutes?With Gwen there was no pretense of a real love interest for Peter,just a reason to cause friction between him and MJ.

Twice in his life? First of all, he's seen her three times in the film before they sleep together, but Bruce knew Miranda Tate for a while beforehand as she was the reason Bruce even built the fusion reactor five years ago.

And while their one night stand made little sense, I only see it as a wink to Talia and Bruce having a child in the comics, but in no way was Talia meant to be some kind of love interest, or at least I wouldn't see it as that. And neither was Gwen, but Gwen was meant to bring in some friction between Peter and MJ but it all fail flat after their kiss during that ceremony.

Ra's flashback-story seemed as hastily conceived as Sandman killing Uncle Ben.You can't tell me either was planned from the beginning in either case.

No, I can't tell you it was planned from the beginning, but in no way does it feel hastily either. Ra's did say he had a great love once, and it fits perfectly with him having a wife 30 years before the events of Batman Begins. It all makes sense which doesn't feel the same with the retcon with Uncle Ben's death now involving Flint Marko.

Spider-Man did save the city in S-M 2

Which turned out to be the better Spider-Man film of the trilogy because it's simply not just the hero trying to save the damsel in distress which is always boring.

I'll concede TDKR Butler scene is better executed (Thanks in large part to Caine) but it's still pretty stupid.Didn't Alfred think Bruce would become more withdrawn thinking his true love died wanting to be with him?

I don't know if Alfred would think that, but it hit a knocking point once Bruce decided to be Batman again, so I understand why Alfred would finally bring it up whereas Harry's butler should have told Harry about the sinister secret of his father way before. Like, as soon as the butler found out.

I really don't want to be in a place of "bashing" the film,as I enjoyed it very much (I gave it 9/10 on the Rate poll),and if it's your favorite of the 3,that's fine.(I like Spidey 3 more than 2.Does that make it a "better" film?Nope.I just enjoy it more.)

There's no problem in which movie is your favorite, just replying to your remarks and how I don't view them as being comparisons between the two films.

But people who want to wave the banner of "1st perfect trilogy!" and "1st flawless 3rd act!" are either seeing it through rose tinted glasses or have clearly seen a different movie than most of us.

First perfect CBM trilogy. This is the point of this thread. Universally acclaimed as the first CBM trilogy to break the curse, and The Dark Knight Rises did prove to do such critically unlike Spider-Man 3. That's simply the main point for this thread.

[Alex Logan]

Anticipation and hype does that.

I never had much anticipation for any of Nolan's Batfilms simply because I believe in the director and he's never failed me(except for Insomnia, sadly), and since I didn't expect much, I came out of the midnight showing loving TDKR. To me, TDKR is the best of the trilogy, but to each their own.

Agreed. Insomnia is not a bad film, bur it is Nolan's weakest. I would never buy that movie.

Plus...as a CBM, TDKR does indeed break the curse. Spider-Man 3, X-Men: The Last Stand, Batman Forever, Blade: Trinity, Superman III, whichever ones I forget...please. They can't hold a candle, let alone a matchstick, to The Dark Knight Rises.

You're right. The only problem with most of those is that the director changed and they choose to go in a different direction. Spider-Man 3 is the only exception to that rule. I also never really liked the Blade or X-Men films so those were a total wash anyway.

[Alex Logan]

I don't get the hate for Spider-man 3 in the first place,but the same objections for that film can be found in TDKR:

The villain's being "reinterpreted" somewhat differently from the comic
A new "love interest" being hastily thrown at the hero (Miranda/Gwen)
A last act reworking of a villain's origin (Sandman/Ra's)
The main objective being the same in all three films (Save MJ....again/Save Gotham from a terrorist attack...again)
The Butler making an important revelation that he should have made several years earlier.

There are probably others that I'm forgetting,but my point is not to say TDKR is awful,but that SM 3 isn't any more flawed than TDKR.

It's not hate, it's all around dislike because the film was poorly executed. The problem is that SM 3 is massively flawed and the points that you're trying to contect just don't match up.

Er....not so.

Yes... so. He's right.

Sandman was given a motivation. Since he was a simple thug in the comics,it was needed.The real comparison is not with Bane but with Talia,who is given a completely different motivation than the comics.(Revenge in honor of a dead father whom she hated?)

Sandman's motivation in the film was one of biggest things that didn't sit well with people. A perfect example is Batman 89 and making the Joker the person who killed Thomas and Martha Wayne.

Comparing his motivation to Taila's just doesn't make sense because it's too much of a stretch. Taila's motivations in the comics are all over the place. Sometimes she chooses Batman, sometimes she chooses her father, but Batman never had anything to do with Ra's death in the comcs. In fact, Taila herself had a hand in killing her own father not that long ago. So who knows what she would do if Batman had accidently killed her father.

"Miranda wasn't even much of a love interest to begin with." My point exactly.:o Seriously though,Bruce sleeps with her after meeting her like twice in his life for a total of 10 minutes?With Gwen there was no pretense of a real love interest for Peter,just a reason to cause friction between him and MJ.

You're forgetting that Bruce worked with her in the past for what had to be countless hours. He had also lost everything, he was beaten and he didn't even know it. If I were in his place I would done the same thing.

Yes, and that is another reason that SM3 was poorly executed.

Ra's flashback-story seemed as hastily conceived as Sandman killing Uncle Ben.You can't tell me either was planned from the beginning in either case.

The flashback story was not hastily conceived and it was planned from the beginning. Most everyone that's been here a while knows that. The only part of the flashback I didn't care for was Bruce seeing Ra's in the prison.

I'll concede TDKR Butler scene is better executed (Thanks in large part to Caine) but it's still pretty stupid. Didn't Alfred think Bruce would become more withdrawn thinking his true love died wanting to be with him?

It's not stupid, it was perfectly played. There is no way Bruce could have become more withdrawn than he was. When you get right down to it Alfred knew he had to stop being Batman because it has consumed had whole life.

I really don't want to be in a place of "bashing" the film,as I enjoyed it very much (I gave it 9/10 on the Rate poll),and if it's your favorite of the 3,that's fine.(I like Spidey 3 more than 2.Does that make it a "better" film?Nope.I just enjoy it more.)

It's strange that you say that because it seems that's where you are now. How could you give it a 9 out of 10 when you found that many things wrong with the plot?

It's also strange that you like 3 more than 2. SM 2 was once the pinincle of the coimc book film. I know it's still in my top ten comic book film list.

:huh:

But people who want to wave the banner of "1st perfect trilogy!" and "1st flawless 3rd act!" are either seeing it through rose tinted glasses or have clearly seen a different movie than most of us.

Ha ha ha.... see this is problem. You're assuming that we have blinders on or we saw a different movie. We don't and we didn't. We only have a different opinion of the film, it's no different than how you feel about SM 3.

[Alex Logan]

Bane is an example of how a villain can be envisioned the correct way to fit the director's universe.

Sandman is an example how the new vision can be complete trash and a waste of time with no conclusion or meaning to the story.

Miranda wasn't even much of a love interest to begin with. Another example that doesn't make sense.

What? What in TDKR re-worked Ra's al Ghul's origin?

Saving the city > saving Mary Jane

Spider-Man could save his city from a threat as well, but he's always saving MJ while Batman had saved Rachel a couple times, but also the city.

The audience is aware of what Alfred was hiding while the audience had no idea that Harry's butler knew about Norman's wounds and him being Green Goblin.

I'd love to hear any more "comparisons" you have, haha.

:up:

Sandman has motivation, yes, but his motivation faded into darkness into the film that really killed that entire storyline.

And Talia said her hatred was basically thrown to wayside because of her father dying.

Twice in his life? First of all, he's seen her three times in the film before they sleep together, but Bruce knew Miranda Tate for a while beforehand as she was the reason Bruce even built the fusion reactor five years ago.

And while their one night stand made little sense, I only see it as a wink to Talia and Bruce having a child in the comics, but in no way was Talia meant to be some kind of love interest, or at least I wouldn't see it as that. And neither was Gwen, but Gwen was meant to bring in some friction between Peter and MJ but it all fail flat after their kiss during that ceremony.

No, I can't tell you it was planned from the beginning, but in no way does it feel hastily either. Ra's did say he had a great love once, and it fits perfectly with him having a wife 30 years before the events of Batman Begins. It all makes sense which doesn't feel the same with the retcon with Uncle Ben's death now involving Flint Marko.

Which turned out to be the better Spider-Man film of the trilogy because it's simply not just the hero trying to save the damsel in distress which is always boring.

I don't know if Alfred would think that, but it hit a knocking point once Bruce decided to be Batman again, so I understand why Alfred would finally bring it up whereas Harry's butler should have told Harry about the sinister secret of his father way before. Like, as soon as the butler found out.

There's no problem in which movie is your favorite, just replying to your remarks and how I don't view them as being comparisons between the two films.

First perfect CBM trilogy. This is the point of this thread. Universally acclaimed as the first CBM trilogy to break the curse, and The Dark Knight Rises did prove to do such critically unlike Spider-Man 3. That's simply the main point for this thread.

Excellent points Domini.

[Chris Wallace]

What would be your first?

I refer you to my current avi.

[Chris Wallace]

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l608/coaltiger2614/respectmyauth.jpg

[Anno_Domini]

Excellent points Domini.

Been a while since I even viewed this thread, haha.

Thank you, though :up:

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

The Ra's flashback didn't involve near the leaps of logic and overwhelming load of coincidence as the Sandman flashback. Now that rumored "Bane was one of the ninjas at HQ when Bruce blew it up"? That's pretty much in line with Sandman.

[Anno_Domini]

Agreed....and there was really nothing wrong with the Ra's flashback.

[Chris Wallace]

How is it that the Batman thread keeps turning into a Raimi debate & the Spider-Man thread keeps turning into a Nolan debate?

[Chris Wallace]

The Ra's flashback didn't involve near the leaps of logic and overwhelming load of coincidence as the Sandman flashback. Now that rumored "Bane was one of the ninjas at HQ when Bruce blew it up"? That's pretty much in line with Sandman.

That theory is unsupported by the fact that Bane was excommunicated from the League.

[Anno_Domini]

How is it that the Batman thread keeps turning into a Raimi debate & the Spider-Man thread keeps turning into a Nolan debate?

Wasn't aware of the bold.

And as for the Spider-Man thread(specifically about Raimi's trilogy), I think it has to do with the trilogies being compared and what not as Spider-Man 3 is pretty much the closest third CBM act to try and rival TDKR.