Should this movie be based more on the Avengers or the Ultimates?

[The Overlord]

Should this movie be based more on the Avengers or the Ultimates?

[SuperFerret]

It should be based on the source material.

[The Overlord]

It should be based on the source material.

Technically both the 616 Avengers and the Ultimates are source material, they are just different takes on the same basic concept.

[SuperFerret]

Well, no. The Avengers are the source material of the Ultimates as well as any other adaption of the Avengers in any medium.

[The Overlord]

Well, no. The Avengers are the source material of the Ultimates as well as any other adaption of the Avengers in any medium.

Ok, but most movies have blended stuff from the Ultimate and 616 universes, like Spider-Man and Iron Man, I think that's the best path here.

Nick Fury is already more based on the Ultimate version then the 616 version.

[roach]

is the movie called Avengers or Ultimates????
what parts of Spider-man and Iron Man were based on the Ultimates

[The Question]

Yes. While certain plot elements of The Ultimates would be very useful for a film adaptation, the characterization and team dynamics won't.

[roach]

the movie is called Avengers base it on Avengers

[topdog1]

I hate everything Ultimate and I mean EVERYTHING.

It's nothing but a retread and unnecessary bastardization of the material that's come before. Ignore it whenever possible. The only good thing to ever come from anything Ultimate is costume designs.

[The Question]

the movie is called Avengers base it on Avengers


I hate everything Ultimate and I mean EVERYTHING.

It's nothing but a retread and unnecessary bastardization of the material that's come before. Ignore it whenever possible. The only good thing to ever come from anything Ultimate is costume designs.

Guys guys guys... let's be reasonable here. There are some aspects of The Ultimates, other than designs, that can be salvaged for a proper Avengers film. The plot structure and certain plot devices... if they combines elements from the first and last story arc of Millar's run (The team coming together and fighting The Hulk, Loki causing WWIII and turning out to have been masterminding the whole thing) and cutting out all of the fluff (The Skrulls, The Defenders, the "Hank Pym being a total bastard" subplot, the trial of the Incredible Hulk, the battle with Thor and his arrest), then that would actually make a pretty good Avengers film. One thing The Ultimates did really really well is turning the fairly simple plot of the first Avengers' story (Thor goes bersek, Loki's behind everything) into something epic and deserving of the team's origin story. Just use the 616 characterizations and team dynamics (which will remove a lot of the team infighting, which is a huge amount of the fluff), and take some elements of The Ultimates to make a story about The Avengers coming together to fight The Hulk while he's tearing through New York, while foreign forces react to them with superhuman force, and have Loki be behind the whole thing.

[Parker Wayne]

is the movie called Avengers or Ultimates????
what parts of Spider-man and Iron Man were based on the Ultimates

Tony Stark's personality was based more off Ultimates. Tony stark is much more cockier and loose in the Ultimates than 616.

And there were some elements that were good. It sucked overall, but I will admit that there are positives with the Ultimates. I kinda liked Ultimate Thor. He and Nick Fury the only Ultimates characters I fully like.

But base it more on Avengers. No one wants Captain ***hole.

[roach]

I am not denying that there are some kool elements to Ultimates....im just saying if I did a film called Star Trek Next Generation and based it on Star Trek Enterprise people would be upset.

[Tony Stark]

There are certain parts of the Ultimates that I think would work, but I want it more based on the 616. For example, the Ultimates really played Cap as the man out of time. I really like this angle, and this is exactly why he would not hit it off with Tony.

But I don't want to see the hulk running around eating people.

[The Question]

Tony Stark's personality was based more off Ultimates. Tony stark is much more cockier and loose in the Ultimates than 616.

Not really. Most of the Tony Stark we saw was him playboying it up, in the first film because it was pre-Iron Man, in the second because he was kind of hitting rock bottom what with the stress of being a super hero and his condition. 616 Tony could get just as cocky and wild when not getting down to brass tacks. When he was in the suit and doing his job, he was just as serious and pragmatic as 616 Tony.

[The Question]

There are certain parts of the Ultimates that I think would work, but I want it more based on the 616. For example, the Ultimates really played Cap as the man out of time. I really like this angle, and this is exactly why he would not hit it off with Tony.

But I don't want to see the hulk running around eating people.

But they played him way more *******-ish then he needed to be. I mean, it worked for The Ultimates, but Cap's still a nice guy who doesn't follow orders blindly, regardless of what time he finds himself in.

[babykhris]

I know many people are not going to like this but this IS the Ultimates. The original Avengers were a bunch of super heroes committed to saving the day. The Ultimates began as Nick Fury created a super powered army.

None of the current Avengers are super-heroes. Cap is a US soldier. Thor's a reluctant god, Iron Man is a maverick, Black Widow & Hawkeye are SHIELD agents and The Hulk won't be a member for long. Sounds like Ultimates to me.

The whole Marvel Cinematic Universe is basically the Ultimate Universe storyline. If you read Ultimate Origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Origins) it basically tell the story how after Cap disappeared everyone was trying to create a Super Soldier.

Ross mentioned it in The Incredible Hulk and he used a bootleg version to create Abomination. Dum Dum Duggan recruits Cap into the Super-Soldier Program in Ultimate Universe and look who's appearing in the upcoming Captain America film.

The Avengers are superheros and honestly I don't think there's any superheros yet. Maybe like the Ultimates the Avengers will break away from SHIELD.

[The Question]

I know many people are not going to like this but this IS the Ultimates. The original Avengers were a bunch of super heroes committed to saving the day. The Ultimates began as Nick Fury created a super powered army.

None of the current Avengers are super-heroes. Cap is a US soldier. Thor's a reluctant god, Iron Man is a maverick, Black Widow & Hawkeye are SHIELD agents and The Hulk won't be a member for long. Sounds like Ultimates to me.

The whole Marvel Cinematic Universe is basically the Ultimate Universe storyline. If you read Ultimate Origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Origins) it basically tell the story how after Cap disappeared everyone was trying to create a Super Soldier.

Ross mentioned it in The Incredible Hulk and he used a bootleg version to create Abomination. Dum Dum Duggan recruits Cap into the Super-Soldier Program in Ultimate Universe and look who's appearing in the upcoming Captain America film.

The Avengers are superheros and honestly I don't think there's any superheros yet. Maybe like the Ultimates the Avengers will break away from SHIELD.

Iron Man is totally a super hero. Also, there are elements of the Ultimate Universe, but there are far more differences.

[roach]

I know many people are not going to like this but this IS the Ultimates. The original Avengers were a bunch of super heroes committed to saving the day. The Ultimates began as Nick Fury created a super powered army.

None of the current Avengers are super-heroes. Cap is a US soldier. Thor's a reluctant god, Iron Man is a maverick, Black Widow & Hawkeye are SHIELD agents and The Hulk won't be a member for long. Sounds like Ultimates to me.

The whole Marvel Cinematic Universe is basically the Ultimate Universe storyline. If you read Ultimate Origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Origins) it basically tell the story how after Cap disappeared everyone was trying to create a Super Soldier.

Ross mentioned it in The Incredible Hulk and he used a bootleg version to create Abomination. Dum Dum Duggan recruits Cap into the Super-Soldier Program in Ultimate Universe and look who's appearing in the upcoming Captain America film.

The Avengers are superheros and honestly I don't think there's any superheros yet. Maybe like the Ultimates the Avengers will break away from SHIELD.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions on movies you havent seen.

[The Question]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions on movies you havent seen.

Also some fairly skewed assessments of movies we have seen. Movie Iron man isn't very much like Ultimate Iron Man, Movie Hulk isn't very much like Ultimate Hulk, and what we've seen of Movie Captain America and Thor bears little resemblance to their Ultimate Counterparts either. The only real Ultimate aspect of the films is Sam Jackson as Fury and SHIELD having a hand in The Avengers' founding, and that's just convenient for the plot.

[SuperFerret]

The only point khris has is the Black Widow and Hawkeye thing. Their inclusion in the founding group suggests an Ultimate basis to me. Their inclusion at the apparent expense of the Pyms upsets me.

That said, I don't mind Jackson as Fury.

[roach]

yeah but do we know for sure that Hawkeye is a shield agent????
Wasnt the founding team of Ultimates Wasp and Giant man...so how does the exclusion of them signal this as an Ultimate plot line???

[Daredevil]

I personally love the Ultimates and hope that there is tons of stuff based off of that.

[SuperFerret]

Having Clint be a SHIELD agent makes him easy to explain, and having him and the Widow there as founders gives it its Ultimate edge. The exclusion of the Pyms is the bigger shame.

[roach]

Hawkeye and Widow werent founders of the Ultimates...not that I recall
We dont know what they are going to do with Hawkeye...however we cant claim him to be a Ultimate part of the story

[The Question]

Also, Hawkeye being a SHIELD agent makes perfect sense after Iron Man 2. They made The Black Widow a SHIELD agent instead of a foreign agent playing the villain, largely for plot convenience. Since Clint did foray into espionage after meeting Natasha and was on her side, it stands to reason that if they keep his espionage background, it'll be updated to be on the same side that Natasha is, which is SHIELD.

[roach]

I dont doubt it....however you are assuming...the only thing we know is that he will be in the movie and he will have a bow and arrow

[SuperFerret]

As long as he actually wears a costume, I'll be happy.



And it better be purple. :argh:

[roach]

As long as he actually wears a costume, I'll be happy.



And it better be purple. :argh:

i feel the same why but I doubt it

[SuperFerret]

I don't know. We're getting a hell of a lot of "comic booky" elements. Putting Clint in his 616 suit isn't that far off from the Asgardian's costumes and the Infinity Gauntlet in Thor and possibility of the Cosmic Cube being included in Cap.

[roach]

depends on who designs it...if it was the guys behind Thor then im ok...if its the guys behind Cap then im not

[SuperFerret]

I'll give you that one.

[The Question]

The guys who designed Cap kept most of the classic costume elements. In fact, besides the fewer stripes and lack of wings, it's just the 616 costume made out of different materials.

[SuperFerret]

It fails in its mission to be acceptable by just falling short of what it could've been. An extra stripe, red(der) gloves and boots, and the wings (even if they were painted on) would have made it much better. What we got was like getting a 69% on a test you needed 70% to pass.

[roach]

the costume design on the two costumes is caused by two separate thoughts

On Thor they took his costume from the comics and Hollywood-ized it

On the Cap suit they decided it was silly looking and decided to take what they thought wasnt needed out of the design.

[The Question]

I guess. Either way, I wouldn't mind an updated design for Hawkeye as long as he was recognizable as Hawkeye. Cap is recognizable as Cap, so at least that's something.

[roach]

i agree but I think they are gonna look at the Hawkeye costume and deem it silly and change it

[The Question]

i agree but I think they are gonna look at the Hawkeye costume and deem it silly and change it

Like I said, as long as he's recognizable as Hawkeye, I won't mind too much. I might be a little disappointed, like I am with the lack of wings and stripes on Cap's suit, but it also won't bother me too much.

[The Overlord]

is the movie called Avengers or Ultimates????
what parts of Spider-man and Iron Man were based on the Ultimates

The genetically altered spider in Spider-Man and the fact Tony is more of a fun drunk then a depressing drunk.

[Original Spawn]

Shouldn´t we add a poll to this?
It would be more interesting with a poll.

[SuperFerret]

Not really. Things tend to be less interesting with a poll, since you'll just have people coming in to vote and the same four guys actually discussing it with words.

[Aztec]

I liked the simplicity of the Ultimates plot and the epic, large scale, action packed feel. I also loved Hitch's art work. With that in mind I wouldn't use most of the characterizations from The Ultimates.

[SuperFerret]

The thing about that is that there's nothing "Ultimate" about the plot, aside from the characterizations.

[Original Spawn]

I hope thay introduce a new villain but use the plot and feeling of the original avengers story.

[ArtTeacher]

I would rather cough blood from my eyes than see a big-screen version of the cannibalistic rapist Hulk that was in The Ultimates.

[Tony Stark]

The real answer is that it will be it's own unique entity, but it will borrow elements from both. It's almost the way Ultimate Avengers the animated show was done. It was based on the Ultimates but there's alot of 616 in there.

I think it would have been a great joke though at comicon to have David Hasselhoff introduce Samuel L. Jackson. ;)

[Blader5489]

Like other Marvel movies, The Avengers should mix the characterizations of the 616 comics with the modern sensibilities of the Ultimate comics.

[The Question]

The genetically altered spider in Spider-Man and the fact Tony is more of a fun drunk then a depressing drunk.

Tony has always been a fun drunk. It's part of his playboy persona. Demon in a Bottle was depressing because of how thoroughly he'd hit rock bottom. And the scene and Iron Man 2 did play up how pathetic Tony had become by that point along with the comedy and action.

[The Question]

The thing about that is that there's nothing "Ultimate" about the plot, aside from the characterizations.

I disagree. The Ultimates did a good job of taking the basic premise of The Avengers' origin story (the team gets together to fight The Hulk, Loki turns out to be the Big Bad), and make it into something epic and befitting the Earth's Mightiest Heroes. They should at least think to do something very similar in that regard.

[Stripesy Strip]

Not really. Most of the Tony Stark we saw was him playboying it up, in the first film because it was pre-Iron Man, in the second because he was kind of hitting rock bottom what with the stress of being a super hero and his condition. 616 Tony could get just as cocky and wild when not getting down to brass tacks. When he was in the suit and doing his job, he was just as serious and pragmatic as 616 Tony.

He was not serious a whole lot in those movie. He's Ultimate Tony all the way. 616 is much more serious.

So far it's been Ultimate Iron Man and Ultimate Nick Fury. Black Widow is not any version I know. In Incredible Hulk they had a similar super soldier origin that was in the Ultimates. But i'm not sure where they're going with this. Maybe Hulk was more the one from the 70s tv show. Not sure what they're going to do with Hawkeye. I figure he's going to be 616 Hawkeye with Ultimate Hawkeye's outfit...?

[Aztec]

He was not serious a whole lot in those movie. He's Ultimate Tony all the way. 616 is much more serious.

So far it's been Ultimate Iron Man and Ultimate Nick Fury. Black Widow is not any version I know. In Incredible Hulk they had a similar super soldier origin that was in the Ultimates. But i'm not sure where they're going with this. Maybe Hulk was more the one from the 70s tv show. Not sure what they're going to do with Hawkeye. I figure he's going to be 616 Hawkeye with Ultimate Hawkeye's outfit...?

Ultimate Tony is a joke. He's never serious, emotional, caring; he's simply a drunk with a super suit. The MCU Tony is nowhere near as extreme.

They HAVE to use Ultimate Hawkeye (the badass SHIELD agent) IMHO. The traditional Hawkeye just wouldn't work on screen.

[Parker Wayne]

Ultimate Tony is a joke. He's never serious, emotional, caring; he's simply a drunk with a super suit. The MCU Tony is nowhere near as extreme.

They HAVE to use Ultimate Hawkeye (the badass SHIELD agent) IMHO. The traditional Hawkeye just wouldn't work on screen.

No, they don't. Ultimate Hawkeye is worse than Ultimate Iron Man and I hate Ultimate Hawkeye more than Ultimate Cap. He's just a careless homicidal maniac who loves shoot anyone for looking at him wrong. Not to mentions he's also an ***hole.

[Aztec]

No, they don't. Ultimate Hawkeye is worse than Ultimate Iron Man and I hate Ultimate Hawkeye more than Ultimate Cap. He's just a careless homicidal maniac who loves shoot anyone for looking at him wrong. Not to mentions he's also an ***hole.

You are referring to Loeb's god awful run on the title. In Millar's run he was a sleek, hot shot, bad ass type.

[Parker Wayne]

You are referring to Loeb's god awful run on the title. In Millar's run he was a sleek, hot shot, bad ass type.

Yeah I was. I'm just not that fond of Ultimates characters overall though, except for Ultimate Thor and Nick Fury. I actually liked those two characters. I actually wouldn't had minded seeing the Ultimate Thor look though I would've hated the whole "questioning if he was a God" aspect of Ultimate Thor.

[The Question]

He was not serious a whole lot in those movie. He's Ultimate Tony all the way. 616 is much more serious.

So far it's been Ultimate Iron Man and Ultimate Nick Fury. Black Widow is not any version I know. In Incredible Hulk they had a similar super soldier origin that was in the Ultimates. But i'm not sure where they're going with this. Maybe Hulk was more the one from the 70s tv show. Not sure what they're going to do with Hawkeye. I figure he's going to be 616 Hawkeye with Ultimate Hawkeye's outfit...?

No, he's really not. You saw him playboying it up a lot more, which you usually don't see much when Tony is an established veteran but does fit in the context of him just starting out. Ultimate Tony was all booze and party and lame sex jokes. He was a caricature of Tony Stark. In the movies, Tony hit all the relevant emotional notes to his character. And you'll notice that, with the exception of the fight scene at the party in 2, when the helmet went on, Tony was all business. You never got that in Ultimates.

[The Question]

They HAVE to use Ultimate Hawkeye (the badass SHIELD agent) IMHO. The traditional Hawkeye just wouldn't work on screen.

Why? He's a much more interesting and in depth character in 616. And he still has a background in espionage in 616, so the SHIELD connection is still there.

[Stripesy Strip]

No, he's really not. You saw him playboying it up a lot more, which you usually don't see much when Tony is an established veteran but does fit in the context of him just starting out. Ultimate Tony was all booze and party and lame sex jokes. He was a caricature of Tony Stark. In the movies, Tony hit all the relevant emotional notes to his character. And you'll notice that, with the exception of the fight scene at the party in 2, when the helmet went on, Tony was all business. You never got that in Ultimates.

Eh I've read comics for a long time and i've not seen the regular Tony Stark on screen sorry. 616 Stark to me is Howard Hughes via Clark Gable. And Ultimate Stark is the jokey wink wink type that does great business but with a smile. A Richard Branson type. 616 is more serious businessman while Ultimate Tony is the mad genius type. You see him in the movie, coming up with inventions left and right, always coming up with new ideas. And i've never seen him serious.

[Parker Wayne]

Eh I've read comics for a long time and i've not seen the regular Tony Stark on screen sorry. 616 Stark to me is Howard Hughes via Clark Gable. And Ultimate Stark is the jokey wink wink type that does great business but with a smile. A Richard Branson type. 616 is more serious businessman while Ultimate Tony is the mad genius type. You see him in the movie, coming up with inventions left and right, always coming up with new ideas. And i've never seen him serious.

Well there are some elements of 616 that doesn't make him as lame as Ultimate Tony, but I still think his personality is little more based of Ultimate Tony stark. He has been serious in the movies.

[The Overlord]

Why? He's a much more interesting and in depth character in 616. And he still has a background in espionage in 616, so the SHIELD connection is still there.

Because in the 616 universe Hawkeye was introduced as a circus performer who turned into a criminal and then reformed and then became a hero, is a lot of back story for a secondary character, vs. in the Ultimate universe where he just starts off as a Shield agent.

With limited time and tons of characters to focus on, I think a simplified back story would be best.

[LuisTX85]

Like other Marvel movies, The Avengers should mix the characterizations of the 616 comics with the modern sensibilities of the Ultimate comics.

I'll agree with that!,I personally prefer the 616 series But I do think Ultimate universe had it's moments,And so I think a mix of BOTH worlds should be great for this movie version!.

[Mogwai]

i agree, they need to have the right mix of both series. keep the origins of the characters their 616 versions and have the ultimate storylines and character interactions.

[LuisTX85]

^Indeed!

[The Question]

Because in the 616 universe Hawkeye was introduced as a circus performer who turned into a criminal and then reformed and then became a hero, is a lot of back story for a secondary character, vs. in the Ultimate universe where he just starts off as a Shield agent.

With limited time and tons of characters to focus on, I think a simplified back story would be best.

There's no need to go into any of that in enormous detail. You can mention his past in the circus and his criminal record with a few lines of dialogue. The only thing that requires any real focus is how he got caught up with SHIELD and The Black Widow, and that also can be explained in a not too long conversation.

[chris moore]

Its kinda of difficult to say that it should be based on the 616 Avengers source material, because all the characters have gone through such significant changes since their introduction, that if this first movie (which for all intents and purposes is an "origin" film) were based on the source material from the first few years of published material, we wouldn't really like it. As comics, they were great. But only when read from the point of view of "in the mind of way back then".

Conversely however, I wouldn't want to see the Ultimates up on the big screen because the characterisations are (for the most part) those of arseholes, arrogant pillocks, and murderous gun-toting maniacs. As "in the real world" as that might be, and as more likely as it is that a government sponsored superhero team would be more special forces than special powers, the Ultimates speaks nothing to me of superheroes, right Vs wrong, inspirational, and saving the world.

Now if we take the concepts of the 616 characters of the 60's, but use their modern day 616 personalities, then we'd have a helluva film. I want adventuring, vocal, leadership quality, cool-as Hawkeye; not gun wielding, ex-military, arrogant nutjob, bionic eyed Hawkeye. I want man out of time, holding up the ideals of a simpler time, morals to the max, there's a better way Cap; not arrogant, arsehole, punch the crap out of anyone who looks at him wrong, the best plan is the grab a rifle plan Cap. I want likes a drink but could be on the verge of alcoholism, atoning for his mistakes, as-we've-already-seen-in-the-movie Iron Man; not drunk while piloting, brain tumour, all over brain tissue, tank flying idot Tony. And I want unsure, trying to live up to legends, brilliant yet reserved Giant Man; not wife beating, anti depressant popping, arrogant, gets the crap kicked out of him every time Giant Man (if we even get him).

That we've had 616 Iron Man, Hulk, and Black Widow so far is a good sign for me

[Nimibro]

well, in volume one of ultiamtes, there was a rather serious and emotional moment between tony and fury, where tony says to fury that he wants to help the world as iron-man and not make it "bleed untill it's dry", like fury. the point is, ultimate tony can also be emotional and serious, and movie tony is much like ultimate tony.

black widow was more like black widow from the second volume of the ultimates (with the skrulls), she was very mysterious and badass. but she also had traits from 616, she looked a bit more like 616 romanoff, but she was more like ultimate black widow in terms of snakey personality and combat methods. but, hulk was a mix, a very regretful and restrained banner, while being more meek and looked a bit more like ultimate, hulk was much more like the 616 one. what i say is this: as of now, we can;t tell, let's just let marvel do their job, and see what comes out.

[The Overlord]

There's no need to go into any of that in enormous detail. You can mention his past in the circus and his criminal record with a few lines of dialogue. The only thing that requires any real focus is how he got caught up with SHIELD and The Black Widow, and that also can be explained in a not too long conversation.

1. Why would a government elite ops unit hire a circus performer over an agent that's being with them for several years and they would know they could trust?

2. Why would a government team like this hire someone with a criminal record, unless he was supposed to be cannon fodder like the Suicide Squad?

It seems to me there are certain elements of 616 Hawkeye that wouldn't work with what has been established so far in the movies and frankly I don't see the point of being dogmatically faithful to the 616 Avengers. Is there any reasons why these element are necessary?

Plus I never liked 616 Hawkeye's costume.

[chris moore]

The reason they might do so is simple: The Avengers (movie) is not a government elite ops unit. It is a government sponsored unit comprised of superheroes created to combine the specialised talents of its members. And to showcase costumed/armoured/powered figures to the public in order to garner public support for the use of such people, and regulate the actions of an ever growing number of such beings/people. rather than prevent or allow them to run around unchecked.

[Original Spawn]

I hope they take elements from both universes, i used to hate the idea of adapting the ultimates comic and i wanted it to feature loki as the main villain but now i hope they use the alien threat from the ultimates and some minor parts on the original comic.

[Original Spawn]

I also hope that they don´t use the black widow from the ultimates.

[The Overlord]

The reason they might do so is simple: The Avengers (movie) is not a government elite ops unit. It is a government sponsored unit comprised of superheroes created to combine the specialised talents of its members. And to showcase costumed/armoured/powered figures to the public in order to garner public support for the use of such people, and regulate the actions of an ever growing number of such beings/people. rather than prevent or allow them to run around unchecked.

And why the public support a member who would have just been a criminal a short while ago?

[ironman29758]

Tony is basiaclly 616 Tony and Movie Tony who can be a womanizer alcoholic with a life threatening disease and trying to make the world a better place than how he left it and try to make sure that protect anyone who can't protect themselves and make sure people aren't afraid as seen in Ultimates Vol #1 issue 2 and 6, Ultimate Spider-man Requiem#1, Ultimate Marvel Team Up#4 and 5.

Ultimate Cap is a great guy and has his man out of time where he's uncomfortable with most of his family and friend either old or dead, movies and everyone cursing way more than he's used to, He doesn't kill unless he needs to, He was depressed when he found out supervillians like Green Goblin was created in an result of trying to recreate the SSS, Ultimate Steve had some respect for enemies like The Colonel, and he wished that things should have been better for the 21st century. Ultimate Hulk Annual, Ultimate Six, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Captain_America

Edward Norton's Hulk is more or less of the Bill Bixby Hulk as well as the 616 Hulk where he unknowingly was helping out with the SSS for the Millitary like Ultimate Bruce was working on the SSS in order to recreate Captain America for S.H.I.E.L.D..

sure they can be darker versions of 616 counterparts and jack asses but underneath it all they basiaclly the same people so I would like them to use Ultimate ideas as well as 616 for the movie

[NEXUS 6]

Plus I never liked 616 Hawkeye's costume.

Sacrilege! :cmad:


:yay:

I just happen to really like that costume.

[chris moore]

And why the public support a member who would have just been a criminal a short while ago?

How much of a criminal was Hawkeye though? First outing of his trying to be a hero there was a misunderstanding, and the result was the misconception he was a thief. Second time out he was tricked by the BW to steal Starktech, which was a theft kept 'in house'

The 616 version has no actual criminal record, and no worse a public perception than Spider-Man. Hawkeye actually turned away from his mentors when he found out they were criminals.

[Blackman]

ITs weird how people say Ultimate Tony doesn't take anything seriously when I actually was thinking to myself (after reading the Ultimates for the first time yesterday) that he was more serious then IM2 Tony. The scene when he was reasoning with Thor in Vol.2 and then after the Pym domestic abuse thing. There are more but I can't think of them off the top of my head

Anyway: They should take more from 616 then Ultimate
About Hawkeye, definitely base him more off 616. Not that his personality was terrible in The Ultimates it was just boring to me. And Hawkeye shouldn't use guns, I mean what's the point of using a bow in combat when you have a gun?
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w235/insanityskate/Ult_Hawkeye.jpg
And they should base his costume off this one and not the Ultimates Matrix look he had when he was introduced

And I didn't like how SHIELD was so public in The Ultimates. I mean that huge read carpet event scene was really stupid to me, but I do like the idea of Betty Ross being the Public Relations head

[ironman29758]

ITs weird how people say Ultimate Tony doesn't take anything seriously when I actually was thinking to myself (after reading the Ultimates for the first time yesterday) that he was more serious then IM2 Tony. The scene when he was reasoning with Thor in Vol.2 and then after the Pym domestic abuse thing. There are more but I can't think of them off the top of my head

Anyway: They should take more from 616 then Ultimate
About Hawkeye, definitely base him more off 616. Not that his personality was terrible in The Ultimates it was just boring to me. And Hawkeye shouldn't use guns, I mean what's the point of using a bow in combat when you have a gun?
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w235/insanityskate/Ult_Hawkeye.jpg
And they should base his costume off this one and not the Ultimates Matrix look he had when he was introduced


And I didn't like how SHIELD was so public in The Ultimates. I mean that huge read carpet event scene was really stupid to me, but I do like the idea of Betty Ross being the Public Relations head
Ultimate Tony serious moments: Ultimate Spider-man Requiem, Ulitmate mARVEL TEAM UP, Ultimate Armor Team Up, Ultimates 3 showed him regrets what happen with Natasha and Jarvis from Ultimates 2
I actually view them as using Ultimate, 616 and other things evenly
Hawkeye I think they should use some Ultimate Hawkeye moments but mostly 616 Hawkeye

I actually like Betty as a scientist working on the same project Bruce worked on but Public Relation Head. I wasn't a big fan of the Ultimate S.H.I.E.L.D. being so public but the book Marvels had S.H.I.E.L.D. just as a public as Ultimate version.

[The Question]

1. Why would a government elite ops unit hire a circus performer over an agent that's being with them for several years and they would know they could trust?

2. Why would a government team like this hire someone with a criminal record, unless he was supposed to be cannon fodder like the Suicide Squad?

It seems to me there are certain elements of 616 Hawkeye that wouldn't work with what has been established so far in the movies and frankly I don't see the point of being dogmatically faithful to the 616 Avengers. Is there any reasons why these element are necessary?

Plus I never liked 616 Hawkeye's costume.

1: Because he's proven to be incredibly skilled at what he does and is willing to work for them. Besides, they can still put him through training after they hire him and put him in the field in a limited capacity as a trial period until they're sure he's up to snuff.

2: The government hires criminals all the time. We grabbed as many Nazi scientists after WWII as we possibly could. The FBI hires former criminals to serve as consultants and profilers, so long as they're skilled enough in their area of crime. The fact is, if someone has the necessary skills, and will at the very least not betray them if they're paying him, the the government's not going to waste the resources.

And why the public support a member who would have just been a criminal a short while ago?

Because the general public aren't actually sheep and are able to recognize when someone isn't a criminal anymore. Especially when they were just a thief and also did heroic acts and never killed anybody.

[Dog Brother #1]

Does anybody remember a few months back when before Renner was confirmed, he was talking a bit about the Hawkeye costume? The way he described it sounded an awful lot like the Ultimate one. I really hope they veer more towards his first Ultimates costume and not the gun toting version that came after it. I like the idea of using the best of all worlds to make the movie.

[The Overlord]

1: Because he's proven to be incredibly skilled at what he does and is willing to work for them. Besides, they can still put him through training after they hire him and put him in the field in a limited capacity as a trial period until they're sure he's up to snuff.

So a circus performer and ex criminal having superior skills to someone who received formal training by an black opts team for most of his adult life. That doesn't make sense.


2: The government hires criminals all the time. We grabbed as many Nazi scientists after WWII as we possibly could. The FBI hires former criminals to serve as consultants and profilers, so long as they're skilled enough in their area of crime. The fact is, if someone has the necessary skills, and will at the very least not betray them if they're paying him, the the government's not going to waste the resources.

Because the general public aren't actually sheep and are able to recognize when someone isn't a criminal anymore. Especially when they were just a thief and also did heroic acts and never killed anybody.

So how often does a ex criminal got hired as a cop and people are okay with that? Besides none of those examples you gave are not people on field, who have access to weapons and could kill people on the field.

Can you justify any of this besides the fact it happened to be 616 Hawkeye's back ground? Can you justify any of this on its own, without just mentioning its his background in the 616 universe? Why is 616 Hawkeye's background better for a movie then Ultimate Hawkeye, because one seems just easier to do on film then the other. I don't like 616 Hawkeye's that much frankly.

[The Question]

So a circus performer and ex criminal having superior skills to someone who received formal training by an black opts team for most of his adult life. That doesn't make sense.

Well, theoretically, yes, that is possible. There's nothing stopping a civilian from mastering a certain aspect of combat without ever joining a military service. But here's the thing, if the Goverment saw someone like Hawkeye, they wouldn't say "Hey, we don't need you, we've already got guys." Heck no. They always need more guys. They'd hire him on and put him through training to test his skills and hone them towards certain specialties they need from him.

So how often does a ex criminal got hired as a cop and people are okay with that?

Almost never. But then that's not what I'm talking about. He's not acting as a police officer here. He's acting as a special operative of an intelligence service, one who may simply have been deputized and not be officially part of the chain of command.

Besides none of those examples you gave are not people on field, who have access to weapons and could kill people on the field.

Well, since Hawkeye has never proven to be a violent criminal, that's not an issue. And the fact is the government wouldn't put him in the field if they weren't sure they could trust him, or at least trust his desire for money and not being imprisoned or outright executed.

Can you justify any of this besides the fact it happened to be 616 Hawkeye's back ground? Can you justify any of this on its own, without just mentioning its his background in the 616 universe? Why is 616 Hawkeye's background better for a movie then Ultimate Hawkeye, because one seems just easier to do on film then the other. I don't like 616 Hawkeye's that much frankly.

Yes. and I think I have justified it, I think you're just nit picking. But why do I think it's inherently better for a movie? Because it's more interesting from a storytelling standpoint. He's got a lot more baggage and a lot more layers to him than Ultimate Hawkeye, which makes him an all around more interesting character than Ultimate Hawkeye.

[chris moore]

Why does it seem to be gospel that Hawkeye will be a SHIELD agent or ex-military or something? Aside from Black Widow being an official agent (cos she already is in movieverse), there's no reason anyone else has to be. The rest (possible Cap exception) could well be brought together by Fury not to be on the SHIELD payroll, but simply to work together when the need arises by "a gentleman's agreement" as it were.

Or to put it another way - you think the God of Thunder is going to sign onto US military service in order to be a part of the Avengers? Hell no. He joins and stays purely out of respect for particular heroes, and responsibility for doing the right thing to help humanity.

[Michellemabelle]

I think it should take elements from both. And even though it would never happen in a PG-13 Avengers film, I'd wanna see Hawkeye using his fingernails to kill people. :p

[chris moore]

I want to see Hawkeye (funny how's the focus of most Avengers discussion now) not kill a soul, because he's so good he can shoot an arrow into pretty much any spot on the body and incapacitate without killing them. You want to shoot first and ask questions later, but actually have someone to question? Get Hawkeye to do the shooting.

[DACMAN]

is the movie called Avengers or Ultimates????
what parts of Spider-man and Iron Man were based on the Ultimates

The entire scene Peter is chasing down the robber that shot Uncle Ben is taken right from Ultimate they never had a chase like that in 616. Not to mention the first costume he makes is taken from Ultimate as well. And the fact MJ lives right next door in high school and he's always loved her is taken right from Ultimate. In 616 Peter doesn't even meet MJ until college.

I think this question is a little silly as we already can see a lot of it is coming from Ultimate. Costumes, stories, even characters. Unless Nick Fury has always been black and I just never noticed. Besides all the "ULTIMATE SUCKS!" people would flip their lid if they actually put all these characters in spandex. Ultimate gave us superheroes whoes costumes don't look ridiculous.

[Anubis]

A combination of both works. He was a circus performer/criminal, gets caught, then gets an offer from SHIELD. Training, new life, all that jazz.

[roach]

The entire scene Peter is chasing down the robber that shot Uncle Ben is taken right from Ultimate they never had a chase like that in 616. Not to mention the first costume he makes is taken from Ultimate as well. And the fact MJ lives right next door in high school and he's always loved her is taken right from Ultimate. In 616 Peter doesn't even meet MJ until college.

Yes he did chase down the killer and accidently kill him in pretty much the same way as the movie...its how he finds out the guy was the guy he let go. MJ also lived next door in 616 but he never saw her...her living next door os how she discovered he was Spiderman

I think this question is a little silly as we already can see a lot of it is coming from Ultimate. Costumes, stories, even characters. Unless Nick Fury has always been black and I just never noticed. Besides all the "ULTIMATE SUCKS!" people would flip their lid if they actually put all these characters in spandex. Ultimate gave us superheroes whoes costumes don't look ridiculous.

These movies are more 616 than Ultimate. For every 1 or 2 Ultimate reference there are hundreds more 616 references.
Out of all the costumes in the movies pretty much all of them have been 616 or movie designs. Save for Nick Fury every design has been 616.
Spiderman=616
X-men=Movie designs
FF=616
DD=616
GR=616
Hulk=616
Cap=616 with some Ulti elements
Thor=616

[Chris Wallace]

I think that between Jackson playing Fury, (A move I applauded at the time but now I'm not so sure) the government being behind the creation of the team and everybody being a SHIELD agent, there's too much "Ultimates" influence on the project as it is. I want the Avengers that I grew up on. A team of superheroes, not costumed grunts with bad attitudes. There's more bad than good in the "Ultimate" line.

[Parker Wayne]

I think that between Jackson playing Fury, (A move I applauded at the time but now I'm not so sure) the government being behind the creation of the team and everybody being a SHIELD agent, there's too much "Ultimates" influence on the project as it is. I want the Avengers that I grew up on. A team of superheroes, not costumed grunts with bad attitudes. There's more bad than good in the "Ultimate" line.

I really doubt they're going to characterize the other characters after Ultimate characters.

[chris moore]

I agree with Parker. Though I completely agree with Wallace's assessment of the Ultimates - best way I've heard it put

[Chris Wallace]

These movies are more 616 than Ultimate. For every 1 or 2 Ultimate reference there are hundreds more 616 references.
Out of all the costumes in the movies pretty much all of them have been 616 or movie designs. Save for Nick Fury every design has been 616.
Spiderman=616
X-men=Movie designs
FF=616
DD=616
GR=616
Hulk=616
Cap=616 with some Ulti elements
Thor=616

Spider-Man doesn't truthfully have an "Ultimate" costume. Neither does Daredevil. Hulk doesn't wear a costume at all and it's really just a matter of grey or green. The X-Men movie preceeds the existence of the "Ultimate" line. And there is no "Ultimate" Ghost Rider as far as I know. And truthfully, DD, GR and the FF all had original costumes in their movies.

[Chris Wallace]

I agree with Parker. Though I completely agree with Wallace's assessment of the Ultimates - best way I've heard it put

I agree with PW that they probably won't-the question was whether or not they should.

[TikkiEXX]

Spider-Man doesn't truthfully have an "Ultimate" costume. Neither does Daredevil. Hulk doesn't wear a costume at all and it's really just a matter of grey or green. The X-Men movie preceeds the existence of the "Ultimate" line. And there is no "Ultimate" Ghost Rider as far as I know. And truthfully, DD, GR and the FF all had original costumes in their movies.
well Ultimate Ghost Rider was in the most recent arc of Ultimate Avengers. not too different from 616 GR actually. and i dont really get all the Ultimates bashing. i can understand if you dont like it, but considering the Ultimate Universe is supposed to be different from the 616 U. i went in expecting the characters to be different. or else what would be the point. i dont compare 616 Cap to Ultimate Cap because theyre completely different people for the most part. i dunno, the changes never bothered me, Hell im still waiting on a crossover between Universes. lol

[chris moore]

I liked that originally the Ultimate universe was more of a grounded, continuity sensitive, cleaned up version of the 616MU. Like they took the best qualities of the characters and streamlined some of them. Like Peter was still a nerd and not the most popular kid in school. But he wasn't overly abused and berated like the 60's teenage Parker. Moonknight's split personality was taken to another level but one that worked well. Attempting to recreate the SSS became a useful tool to explain the ridiculous number of superhumans popping up.
But then we started getting arrogant Cap, terrorist Longshot, Gun toting death row Hawkeye, Blinged up Black Hulk, Blonde Tony. It just got a little carried away with the 'make it different'

[wobbly]

There have certainly been elements from the Ultimate line used in the movies (Mutated Dr. Doom would be another example, but that was a Fox film) but for the most part Marvel have been keeping them more 616 based: Tony is not a mutant whose entire body in basically one huge brain and his armour is right out of the 616 books. Hulk is not a horny cannibal, and Thor is clearly more 616 based than the hippie wannabe Ultimate version.

With Cap, again I don't think they are gonna pull much from Ultimates there other than some window dressing (we already know we are getting a classic Red Skull, not Cap's bastard freak son for example). Ultimate Cap is often not very likeable at all as well so that's another reason I doubt they will take too much from that version.

Fury, whose casting was entirely down to the fact Hitch drew him to look exactly like Jackson) is obviously Ultimates inspired in his appearance, but so far we have not seen enough of him to say what kind of a person he is (Ultimate Fury, like Ult Cap, can be a complete a-hole at times).

For Avengers I don't see any reason why we should expect things to be any different: A few ideas taken from the Ultimates, but still mostly 616 based. For example I can imagine Shield would be trying to 'officially' run the team at the start (and the government has tried to do that in the 616 books as well) and the likes of Tony, Thor, and even Cap tell Fury 'we do it our way or no way'.

[The Question]

There have certainly been elements from the Ultimate line used in the movies (Mutated Dr. Doom would be another example, but that was a Fox film) but for the most part Marvel have been keeping them more 616 based: Tony is not a mutant whose entire body in basically one huge brain and his armour is right out of the 616 books. Hulk is not a horny cannibal, and Thor is clearly more 616 based than the hippie wannabe Ultimate version.

With Cap, again I don't think they are gonna pull much from Ultimates there other than some window dressing (we already know we are getting a classic Red Skull, not Cap's bastard freak son for example). Ultimate Cap is often not very likeable at all as well so that's another reason I doubt they will take too much from that version.

Fury, whose casting was entirely down to the fact Hitch drew him to look exactly like Jackson) is obviously Ultimates inspired in his appearance, but so far we have not seen enough of him to say what kind of a person he is (Ultimate Fury, like Ult Cap, can be a complete a-hole at times).

For Avengers I don't see any reason why we should expect things to be any different: A few ideas taken from the Ultimates, but still mostly 616 based. For example I can imagine Shield would be trying to 'officially' run the team at the start (and the government has tried to do that in the 616 books as well) and the likes of Tony, Thor, and even Cap tell Fury 'we do it our way or no way'.

To be fair, 616 Fury is also an a-hole sometimes.

[Parker Wayne]

I agree with PW that they probably won't-the question was whether or not they should.

They shouldn't. Not because I can't stand Ultimate Captain America and Ultimate Iron Man, but because the Ultimates is more a deconstruction of the 616 Avengers than an actual universe on its own. Of all the Ultimate books, I disliked Ultimates the most (I can take it or leave it with Ultimate X-men though I loved the first few years of Ultimate Spiderman) because they didn't feel like heroes. The only Ultimate character I actually liked was Ultimate Thor, but I hated the whole "Is he a god?" aspect of Thor.

Now I don't mind a few aspects, like Captain America costume or some of Tony Stark's personality which has shown in the movies and I liked the Nick Fury they used solely on the fact that they used Samuel Jackson likeness and if you can get him in the film its obvious you go with him over 616 Fury.

But this film shouldn't be a forced deconstruction of superheroes that the Ultimates were. It should be (for lack of a better word) a celebration of heroes. It should showcase Marvel's finest heroes that we can look up to. I believe we're going to get that because Whedon's a big fan of the original Avengers comics.

[Chris Wallace]

The entire scene Peter is chasing down the robber that shot Uncle Ben is taken right from Ultimate they never had a chase like that in 616. Not to mention the first costume he makes is taken from Ultimate as well. And the fact MJ lives right next door in high school and he's always loved her is taken right from Ultimate. In 616 Peter doesn't even meet MJ until college. .
NO part of Spider-Man is based on "Ultimate", because the movie was already in development when "Ultimate" was introduced. I think if anything, it's the other way around.

I think this question is a little silly as we already can see a lot of it is coming from Ultimate. Costumes, stories, even characters. Unless Nick Fury has always been black and I just never noticed. Besides all the "ULTIMATE SUCKS!" people would flip their lid if they actually put all these characters in spandex. Ultimate gave us superheroes whoes costumes don't look ridiculous.Speak for yourself. I personally hate ALL of the Ultimates' costumes. I like superheroes to look like superheroes. "Ultimates" gave us a bunch of suits that looked like rejects from the X-Men movies, an overly militaristic Cap and a Thor whose suit looks like Stark designed it. I, for one, am immensely grateful that that suit in particular didn't make it to film.

[Chris Wallace]

They shouldn't. Not because I can't stand Ultimate Captain America and Ultimate Iron Man, but because the Ultimates is more a deconstruction of the 616 Avengers than an actual universe on its own. Of all the Ultimate books, I disliked Ultimates the most (I can take it or leave it with Ultimate X-men though I loved the first few years of Ultimate Spiderman) because they didn't feel like heroes. The only Ultimate character I actually liked was Ultimate Thor, but I hated the whole "Is he a god?" aspect of Thor.

Now I don't mind a few aspects, like Captain America costume or some of Tony Stark's personality which has shown in the movies and I liked the Nick Fury they used solely on the fact that they used Samuel Jackson likeness and if you can get him in the film its obvious you go with him over 616 Fury.

But this film shouldn't be a forced deconstruction of superheroes that the Ultimates were. It should be (for lack of a better word) a celebration of heroes. It should showcase Marvel's finest heroes that we can look up to. I believe we're going to get that because Whedon's a big fan of the original Avengers comics.

I agree overall. Except where Cap's costume is concerned.

[Chris Wallace]

well Ultimate Ghost Rider was in the most recent arc of Ultimate Avengers. not too different from 616 GR actually. and i dont really get all the Ultimates bashing. i can understand if you dont like it, but considering the Ultimate Universe is supposed to be different from the 616 U. i went in expecting the characters to be different. or else what would be the point. i dont compare 616 Cap to Ultimate Cap because theyre completely different people for the most part. i dunno, the changes never bothered me, Hell im still waiting on a crossover between Universes. lol

I'm fine with a different interpretation but I feel that in many aspects, "Ultimate" is a BAD interpretation-particularly where the Avengers are concerned.
EDIT-and since "Ultimate" GR was introduced AFTER the movie, it still doesn't count.