Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate II

[The_Raganork]

An interesting idea. In The Dark Knight, it's Batman's inability to eliminate Bruce Wayne's wants and needs from the equation that cause untold damage. One of the key moments of the whole film is immediately following the interrogation scene with The Joker, when Gordon asks him who he's going to help. Instantly, without even thinking it over, he says, "Rachel." Harvey Dent is the symbol of hope for Gotham that he's gone on and on about having to protect for the greater good of the city's future. Rachel is just the girl Bruce Wayne loves. So he's choosing his own hopes for future happiness over the future of the city. Choosing Bruce Wayne over Batman.

And of course, The Joker swapped them around. If Batman HAD chosen to do the right thing and save Harvey Dent, he would have been able to save Rachel instead, and Harvey would have died a martyr and a hero. But by choosing Rachel, he left Rachel to die and, as a result, turned Harvey Dent into Two-Face and almost ruined everything.

I think there will likely be a Bruce/Selina/Miranda love triangle of sorts in the film, serving as a reprise of this idea, Bruce torn between what he wants as Bruce Wayne and what Gotham needs as Batman. Rachel was all about the promise of a life after Batman. Miranda ostensibly offers that by wanting Bruce to focus on his philanthropic efforts. With Selina, the real connection is between Batman and Catwoman. The chemistry is BECAUSE he is Batman. She offers the promise not of a life after Batman, but a life of being Batman forever.

Exactly, and even furthermore. Her connection to crime makes her a polar opposite. She not only offers him a love for Bruce but, even if all the crime in Gotham vanished by magic, Catwoman would still be there.

She will always give meaning to Batman as Catwoman

[Pagan]

Rags a lot of folks on these forums said plain and simple "She's not Talia" Go back and check the older threads.

[kvz5]

there's still a lot mysteries left to solve gang. is Venom in the film? are the Pits? Why did Bale go to India and shoot on location there?

I'm very intrigued about that in particular.

[DarthSkywalker]

:doh:

Because Marion is European she had to be related to Ra's?

Where is the logic in this?

Have you heard Marion Cotillard speak English?

There is plenty of logic in those who both A) have actual knowledge of the characters in Batman, B) watched Batman Begins and C) realized that they cast a high profile European actress in a role of best buddy of Bruce Wayne.

It isn't that hard. But hey, I still remember people who walked out of Batman Begins refusing to believe Nesson was actually Ra's.

[Cats]

See, but for me, that was not enough to convince me she was for sure Talia.

What convinced me was IMDB listing Marion as Talia Al Ghul, and an early article describing Nolan's hunt for an actress to play Talia. Apart from fanboy speculations, those seemed pretty official.

I wasn't so keen on having both Talia and Selina in one movie, but I know if they're both in it, Nolan's the one person who'll be able to pull it off.

[Keyser Soze]

WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL? Christopher Nolan is not going to send you a f***ing medal because you always thought Miranda Tate would turn out to be Talia, and he's not going to come round to your house and personally kick you in the balls if you thought she wouldn't.

[Sith Scotti]

What convinced me was IMDB listing Marion as Talia Al Ghul, and an early article describing Nolan's hunt for an actress to play Talia. Apart from fanboy speculations, those seemed pretty official.

I wasn't so keen on having both Talia and Selina in one movie, but I know if they're both in it, Nolan's the one person who'll be able to pull it off.

Never trust IMDb, Howver when the cast a young Ras and a girl who looks like Marion this debate should have ended . Why else bring in a Young Ras? He ain't going to tie into to Bruce . Vlearly it about Talia if you connect any dots.

[Keyser Soze]

Has anyone else read Batman RIP by Grant Morrison? Could the portayal of Jezebel Jet in that story possibly inform some of how Miranda Tate is handled in this movie?

[DarthSkywalker]

WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL? Christopher Nolan is not going to send you a f***ing medal because you always thought Miranda Tate would turn out to be Talia, and he's not going to come round to your house and personally kick you in the balls if you thought she wouldn't.

The question is, what do you expect to get for complaining? Were you promised cake?

[The_Raganork]

Rags a lot of folks on these forums said plain and simple "She's not Talia" Go back and check the older threads.


Then those post are just as stupid as the ones claiming the exact opposite.

Have you heard Marion Cotillard speak English?

There is plenty of logic in those who both A) have actual knowledge of the characters in Batman, B) watched Batman Begins and C) realized that they cast a high profile European actress in a role of best buddy of Bruce Wayne.

It isn't that hard. But hey, I still remember people who walked out of Batman Begins refusing to believe Nesson was actually Ra's.

She honestly couldn't have just been a character of french descent in the film?

Why is that such an impossibility?

[Cats]

there's still a lot mysteries left to solve gang. is Venom in the film? are the Pits? Why did Bale go to India and shoot on location there?
I'm very intrigued about that in particular.
Could he be taken to meet Ra's after you-know-what happens between Miranda and Batman in that indoor shoot? Would give more reasoning behind doing what she did.

[Sith Scotti]

She honestly couldn't have just been a character of french descent in the film?

Why is that such an impossibility?
So in every Enghlish speaking role , she is of French descent ?

[Keyser Soze]

The question is, what do you expect to get for complaining? Were you promised cake?

It's just incredibly depressing. Miranda Tate is probably Talia. There are so many avenues of discussion that opens up, looking forward. But instead everyone seems more inclined to look backwards and dredge up whatever dumb squabbles you had over the past few weeks or months:

Oh, now you all have to apologise because I said that Miranda Tate was Talia and you said she wasn't and now she is.

Nuh-uh, it was just a lucky guess!

NUH-UH-UH, she was totally obviously Talia and I figured it out and you were just too dumb to see it!

LALALA NOT LISTENING! NO TAKEBACKSIES!

WINNER! WINNER! CHICKEN DINNER!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGH H!

[The_Raganork]

So in every Enghlish speaking role , she is of French descent ?

Is that impossible? The logic over her accent is so deeply flawed.

She could have just been French in the movie. Her accent didn't necessitate that she be Talia; that's just silly.

[DarthSkywalker]

She honestly couldn't have just been a character of french descent in the film?

Why is that such an impossibility?

Nothing is impossible. In theory she could still be Bruce and Selina's genetically aged love child. Doubt it though.

The whole point is that your argument is, "Well there was no actual proof". That doesn't change the fact that people can practice the art of deduction. A high profile actress playing A female contemporary of Bruce Wayne who is of European descent. In a film series that has already seen Ra's.

[coderaven24]

the was a lot of speculative evidence she was before we saw the images.
1. Actress before filming saying her agent contacted being Talia.
2. Liam being seen on set.
3. European actresses needed for the role.
4. Two love interests needed for the movie.
5. Casting of a young girl.
6. Colliard casted, strong actress played villain before.

I personally just don't like her being in the movie with Catwoman. One of the characters will be kinda cast aside a bit for the other.

[Sith Scotti]

Is that impossible? The logic over her accent is so deeply flawed.

She could have just been French in the movie. Her accent didn't necessitate that she be Talia; that's just silly.


Yes because actors are always going to be cast with the same accent . Until she has a role without an accent , your argument is more flawed since there is no evidence that she can play a part without an accent .

[The_Raganork]

Nothing is impossible. In theory she could still be Bruce and Selina's genetically aged love child. Doubt it though.

The whole point is that your argument is, "Well there was no actual prove". That doesn't change the fact that people can practice the art of deduction. A high profile actress playing A female contemporary of Bruce Wayne who is of European descent. In a film series that has already seen Ra's.

No I said the evidence wasn't substantial.

To insist she was DEFINITELY Talia before Sunday, I still think was premature.

Either way, it's time to start thinking of ways she's going to fit into this film.

Plenty of you have seen my Selina/Catwoman, Bruce Wayne and Ra's Al Ghul Analysis..hopefully I'll have one for Talia soon too.

[DarthSkywalker]

No I said the evidence wasn't substantial.

To insist she was DEFINITELY Talia before Sunday, I still think was premature.

Either way, it's time to start thinking of ways she's going to fit into this film.

Plenty of you have seen my Selina/Catwoman, Bruce Wayne and Ra's Al Ghul Analysis..hopefully I'll have one for Talia soon too.

But that is the rub isn't it? If you are right, you are right. Others trying to use their version of logic to deny you doesn't change that.

[The_Raganork]

Yes because actors are always going to be cast with the same accent . Until she has a role without an accent , your argument is more flawed since there is no evidence that she can play a part without an accent .

What are you talking about? I never said that she wouldn't have a French accent, I said she could have just been a French character in the film, without being Talia.

I'm SURE there are French people in the Nolanverse who aren't related to Ra's Al Ghul

[lililatigresse]

Has anyone else read Batman RIP by Grant Morrison? Could the portayal of Jezebel Jet in that story possibly inform some of how Miranda Tate is handled in this movie?

I haven't read it, can you tell me more about it ?

[DarthSkywalker]

It's just incredibly depressing. Miranda Tate is probably Talia. There are so many avenues of discussion that opens up, looking forward. But instead everyone seems more inclined to look backwards and dredge up whatever dumb squabbles you had over the past few weeks or months:

Oh, now you all have to apologise because I said that Miranda Tate was Talia and you said she wasn't and now she is.

Nuh-uh, it was just a lucky guess!

NUH-UH-UH, she was totally obviously Talia and I figured it out and you were just too dumb to see it!

LALALA NOT LISTENING! NO TAKEBACKSIES!

WINNER! WINNER! CHICKEN DINNER!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGH H!

You are more then free to have such a discussion. :woot:

[Sith Scotti]

What are you talking about? I never said that she wouldn't have a French accent, I said she could have just been a French character in the film, without being Talia.

I'm SURE there are French people in the Nolanverse who aren't related to Ra's Al Ghul
And than explain Joey King ala Marion look alike or a young Ras . All the evidence pointed to her being Talia

[DarthSkywalker]

the was a lot of speculative evidence she was before we saw the images.
1. Actress before filming saying her agent contacted being Talia.
2. Liam being seen on set.
3. European actresses needed for the role.
4. Two love interests needed for the movie.
5. Casting of a young girl.
6. Colliard casted, strong actress played villain before.

I personally just don't like her being in the movie with Catwoman. One of the characters will be kinda cast aside a bit for the other.

I don't see this as a problem. I don't figure either female to be what the story revolves around and will thus be developed precisely as much as they need to be. After all this is Nolan's Batman, where the title character does actually matter.

I see both characters being used as they need be to tell the story of the Dark Knight.

[Pagan]

Could he be taken to meet Ra's after you-know-what happens between Miranda and Batman in that indoor shoot? Would give more reasoning behind doing what she did.

I'm not so sure Ra's is alive. IF (still a pretty big if) the pits are in the film chances are his body was destroyed beyond even their repair. From the books I've read the pits have their limits.

Now take into consideration this : Ra's was grooming Bruce to be his heir and to marry him off to Talia. (per Denny O'Neal's Batman Begins novel) If Talia wishes to fulfill his dream then she probably will want this to happen. Her other option is Bane and I don't think she particularly cares for him like that.
In her dealings with Bruce as Miranda she falls for him. She wants him to return and rule with her. And have a kid with him that is to her, a genetic masterpiece and suitable for the lineage of Ra's.

So she has a relationship with him. All the while undermining his business covertly. She wants to remove any reason he would have to make him stay in Gotham and continue being Bruce Wayne and Batman.
She may even allow herself to get pregnant. Thinking that that will be enough leverage (he really wants a family) to sway him.
Of course he spurns her offer and that makes her all stabby.

[floreairfoot]

the was a lot of speculative evidence she was before we saw the images.
1. Actress before filming saying her agent contacted being Talia.
2. Liam being seen on set.
3. European actresses needed for the role.
4. Two love interests needed for the movie.
5. Casting of a young girl.
6. Colliard casted, strong actress played villain before.

I personally just don't like her being in the movie with Catwoman. One of the characters will be kinda cast aside a bit for the other.

If you've read the interactions between Talia and Catwoman (from the comics), there would be no reason, unless it's intentional.

They hold such different roles from each another, you shouldn't have to worry about that.

[The_Raganork]

But that is the rub isn't it? If you are right, you are right. Others trying to use their version of logic to deny you doesn't change that.

No. I'm not trying to say the Talia people were wrong about Talia being in the film.

You should read my post.

I'm saying regardless of them being right about Talia their reasons for believing that before Sunday were not great.

And than explain Joey King ala Marion look alike or a young Ras . All the evidence pointed to her being Talia


Funny how you ignored pretty much everything I responded to you with.

Again, I always gave the Joey King thing some credit but, again it didn't have to be she was Talia from that.

Though I always admitted that it was good evidence.

All I wanted was for someone reasonable to say:

"I think Talia is in the film but...I'll need more evidence before I can say she is for sure"

and all people would say was: "THERE'S NO WAY IN HELL SHE'S NOT IN THE FILM!"

One is Logical one is not and that won't change even if she is Talia in the film

[Sith Scotti]

No. I'm not trying to say the Talia people were wrong about Talia being in the film.

You should read my post.

I'm saying regardless of them being right about Talia their reasons for believing that before Sunday were not great.




Funny how you ignored pretty much everything I responded to you with.

Again, I always gave the Joey King thing some credit but, again it didn't have to be she was Talia from that.

Though I always admitted that it was good evidence.

All I wanted was for someone reasonable to say:

"I think Talia is in the film but...I'll need more evidence before I can say she is for sure"

and all people would say was: "THERE'S NO WAY IN HELL SHE'S NOT IN THE FILM!"

One is Logical one is not and that won't change even if she is Talia in the film

Ok now I understand you . Both sides did that . No way Nolan will bring in Tslia with no mention before her camp.. vs She is in for sure . The internet deals in absolutes apparently.... I originally thought there would be no Talia or LOs but ther evidence mounted the other way , where it conceded Marion is Likely Talia , and I still feel that way but there is always the small chance she is a female villian working for Bane as doubtful as it is giving Joey King

[The_Raganork]

Ok now I understand you . Both sides did that . No way Nolan will bring in Taslia with no mention before her camp.. vs She is in for sure . The internet deals in absolutes apparently....

Exactly and that bothers me, since none of us are Nolan we can say we knew 100% she was Talia when Joey king was announced or we knew 100% she wasn't Talia when something else happened.

That's just really foolish

I originally thought there would be no Talia or LOs but ther evidence mounted the other way , where it conceded Marion is Likely Talia , and I still feel that way but there is always the small chance she is a female villian working for Bane as doubtful as it is giving Joey King

I agree with this 120%

We still don't have a confirmation of Talia but, now that evidence is leaning towards her I'm going to go with the flow of evidence.

[DarthSkywalker]

No. I'm not trying to say the Talia people were wrong about Talia being in the film.

You should read my post.

I'm saying regardless of them being right about Talia their reasons for believing that before Sunday were not great.




Funny how you ignored pretty much everything I responded to you with.

Again, I always gave the Joey King thing some credit but, again it didn't have to be she was Talia from that.

Though I always admitted that it was good evidence.

All I wanted was for someone reasonable to say:

"I think Talia is in the film but...I'll need more evidence before I can say she is for sure"

and all people would say was: "THERE'S NO WAY IN HELL SHE'S NOT IN THE FILM!"

One is Logical one is not and that won't change even if she is Talia in the film

And that is where you logic is flawed. If it was good enough for them to get to the correct conclusion, then their reasons were "good enough".

How is that not obvious? Is it because you didn't want to see it perhaps?

[The_Raganork]

And that is where you logic is flawed. If it was good enough for them to get to the correct conclusion, then their reasons were "good enough".

How is that not obvious? Is it because you didn't want to see it perhaps?

Take a logic class. You'll find everything you said to be totally wrong.

You could ask me right now to guess how many apples you have in your room.

I say "Ten"

Let's say Ten is the correct answer.

I've based this on the idea that you're a Star Wars Fan and furthermore a fan of Sith's and Skywalkers.

So Luke Skywalker Blew up the Death Star in Episode IV and then Defeated a Sith in Episode VI

4+6 = 10

So you have ten apples.

There's no logic in my reasoning there, and just because I had the right answer doesn't mean my reasons were 'good enough'

I'm not saying the Talia evidence were that outrageous, I'm merely pointing out that your assertion of how logic works is wrong

[Pagan]

of course the people who were big deniers are less likely to see the clues before them because it's not what they wanted. it's called confirmation bias. it's the reason Fox News is so popular with a certain group of people.

[Pagan]

Take a logic class. You'll find everything you said to be totally wrong.

You could ask me right now to guess how many apples you have in your room.

I say "Ten"

Let's say Ten is the correct answer.

I've based this on the idea that you're a Star Wars Fan and furthermore a fan of Sith's and Skywalkers.

So Luke Skywalker Blew up the Death Star in Episode IV and then Defeated a Sith in Episode VI

4+6 = 10

So you have ten apples.

There's no logic in my reasoning there, and just because I had the right answer doesn't mean my reasons were 'good enough'

I'm not saying the Talia evidence were that outrageous, I'm merely pointing out that your assertion of how logic works is wrong

yes that's exactly what you're implying. that circumstantial evidence even when it's a mountain of it isn't really evidence at all. It's like saying a smoking building isn't on fire because you can't see the flames just the smoke.

[John McGuirk]

of course the people who were big deniers are less likely to see the clues before them because it's not what they wanted. it's called confirmation bias. it's the reason Fox News is so popular with a certain group of people.

PLEASE don't turn this thread into a politics discussion with that last part. There's a reason there is a Politics forum...

[The_Raganork]

yes that's exactly what you're implying. that circumstantial evidence even when it's a mountain of it isn't really evidence at all. It's like saying a smoking building isn't on fire because you can't see the flames just the smoke.

No...I'm not.

I said the evidence wasn't sufficient. Not the evidence wasn't logical.

It's more like saying, I see smoke in the distance and I assume it's my best friend's building.

Could be... could be a whole bunch of other buildings. I need more evidence that it's my friends building.

Either way, that post wasn't about Talia, it was about DarthSkywalker's incorrect use of 'logic'

[DarthSkywalker]

Take a logic class. You'll find everything you said to be totally wrong.

You could ask me right now to guess how many apples you have in your room.

I say "Ten"

Let's say Ten is the correct answer.

I've based this on the idea that you're a Star Wars Fan and furthermore a fan of Sith's and Skywalkers.

So Luke Skywalker Blew up the Death Star in Episode IV and then Defeated a Sith in Episode VI

4+6 = 10

So you have ten apples.

There's no logic in my reasoning there, and just because I had the right answer doesn't mean my reasons were 'good enough'

I'm not saying the Talia evidence were that outrageous, I'm merely pointing out that your assertion of how logic works is wrong

Just because there is madness to one's method, does not make it any less effective or in fact reasonable. Why one knows an answer is trivial. Just that the know it.

It is the basis for Slumdog Millionaire. :awesome:

[Pagan]

No...I'm not.

I said the evidence wasn't sufficient. Not the evidence wasn't logical.

It's more like saying, I see smoke in the distance and I assume it's my best friend's building.

Could be... could be a whole bunch of other buildings. I need more evidence that it's my friends building.

Either way, that post wasn't about Talia, it was about DarthSkywalker's incorrect use of 'logic'

Whatever. the logical conclusion to me was that she was in the film. What was the logic of your conclusion that she wasn't base upon? What evidence did you have to the contrary? From what I recall it was merely your opinion that Nolan wouldn't go in that direction. That you felt it too repetitive. Been there ,done that with the LoS. but were perfectly fine with another mob boss like Falcone or Black Mask in a long halloween type of story.

[The Guard]

Before the reveal that Tate is (assuming she is) Talia, no, no one could say definitively yes or no.

But to suggest there was no evidence to indicate she was very likely to be Talia?

That's just silly.

[The_Raganork]

Just because there is madness to one's method, does not make it any less effective or in fact reasonable. Why one knows an answer is trivial. Just that the know it.



I'm not going to convince you to believe otherwise, however "madness" can't be "reasonable" it's against their definitions.

and also this is the total opposite of how I think. I wasn't trying to poke you when I said "Take a logic class"

I studied these things and passed with honors.

Logic dictates that reason be used ALL the time. (that's not saying I don't believe in some phenomena)

Also as a practitioner of Philosophy I can't subscribe to 'madness' being a reasonable way to deduce the answer to a specific question (or even a general question on a constant basis)

Our debate can't yield any real compromise only because I'm dealing with Oranges and you apples.

It happens...thus is the flaw of applied Ethics.

[The_Raganork]

Whatever. the logical conclusion to me was that she was in the film. What was the logic of your conclusion that she wasn't base upon? What evidence did you have to the contrary? From what I recall it was merely your opinion that Nolan wouldn't go in that direction. That you felt it too repetitive. Been there ,done that with the LoS. but were perfectly fine with another mob boss like Falcone or Black Mask in a long halloween type of story.

My logical conclusion was that I didn't have enough info to know either way.

[Cats]

I'm not so sure Ra's is alive. IF (still a pretty big if) the pits are in the film chances are his body was destroyed beyond even their repair. From the books I've read the pits have their limits.
What about that theory that was conceived right after the release of BB that Ra's actually escaped the fire? There was even a slow motion capture done with a circle to mark a dark shadow leaping out before the flames hit. It drove fans into a frenzy with theories about Ra's return in the second Batman movie. Except when it was announced that Batman 2 would star the Joker, then this theory sort of got buried and forgotten. Doesn't mean Nolan can't still revisit a possible plot twist without needing to bring out the Lazarus pits.

Now take into consideration this : Ra's was grooming Bruce to be his heir and to marry him off to Talia. (per Denny O'Neal's Batman Begins novel) If Talia wishes to fulfill his dream then she probably will want this to happen. Her other option is Bane and I don't think she particularly cares for him like that. In her dealings with Bruce as Miranda she falls for him. She wants him to return and rule with her. And have a kid with him that is to her, a genetic masterpiece and suitable for the lineage of Ra's. So she has a relationship with him. All the while undermining his business covertly. She wants to remove any reason he would have to make him stay in Gotham and continue being Bruce Wayne and Batman. She may even allow herself to get pregnant. Thinking that that will be enough leverage (he really wants a family) to sway him. Of course he spurns her offer and that makes her all stabby.

That could work. I've always been a great fan of Ra's and Talia's, as well as O'Neil's. They are quite unlike the stereotypical comic book villain. But I would hate getting a child involved, even though I've always thought that Damian Wayne/Ibn al Xu'ffasch made the Batman storyline richer, mostly because it would seem like a rehash of Superman Returns (we all know how that went down), and would pose a huge problem to concluding the trilogy properly.

[DrCosmic]

I'm sure the pics created a nice little storm in here. I just wanna say: She said it was a small role, so don't expect her to do a bunch of... y'know, stuff.

[Keyser Soze]

You are more then free to have such a discussion. :woot:

I've tried today, twice, and it's been lost amidst the sea of bickering.

[The_Raganork]

I've tried today, twice, and it's been lost amidst the sea of bickering.

This was in response to your post, don't know if you saw it



Exactly, and even furthermore. Her connection to crime makes her a polar opposite. She not only offers him a love for Bruce but, even if all the crime in Gotham vanished by magic, Catwoman would still be there.

She will always give meaning to Batman as Catwoman

[Keyser Soze]

I haven't read it, can you tell me more about it ?

Through Grant Morrison's run on Batman, Jezebel Jet emerged as a potential new major love interest for Batman. Like him, she was an incredibly wealthy CEO who had lost both her parents as a child, and she dedicated her resources to philanthropic efforts, encouraging Bruce to do the same. Eventually, she discovered that Bruce Wayne was Batman.

In Batman RIP, she lists all these perfectly valid arguments as to why Batman's lifelong quest is a madman's folly, applying real-world logic to the inherent lunacy of his crusade. She is trying to convince him to give up being Batman and live a more fulfilling life as Bruce Wayne, changing the world through philanthropy rather than superheroics. In the end, however, it turns out she's been working in tandem with villainous organisation The Black Glove to make Bruce doubt himself and thus become more vulnerable to their psychological (and ultimately, physical) attack.

I may try posting some scans later. Even before I thought that Miranda Tate might be Talia, reading the description of her character in that press release made me think of Jezebel Jet.

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm not going to convince you to believe otherwise, however "madness" can't be "reasonable" it's against their definitions.

and also this is the total opposite of how I think. I wasn't trying to poke you when I said "Take a logic class"

I studied these things and passed with honors.

Logic dictates that reason be used ALL the time. (that's not saying I don't believe in some phenomena)

Also as a practitioner of Philosophy I can't subscribe to 'madness' being a reasonable way to deduce the answer to a specific question (or even a general question on a constant basis)

Our debate can't yield any real compromise only because I'm dealing with Oranges and you apples.

It happens...thus is the flaw of applied Ethics.

Madness is subjective. One person's logic can be another person's madness. My use of the word was a tad vague, but that is what I meant.

If logic depends on the use of reason, who decides what is reasonable?

[Keyser Soze]

This was in response to your post, don't know if you saw it

Yeah, I saw that one, thanks. I think it's an interesting dynamic, and makes me wonder whether the rumors of Catwoman becoming an ally mean she permanently becomes a fellow vigilante and partner to Batman, or if it's only a temporary fix until Gotham is rid of the League of Shadows, before she goes back to being a foil and rival for Batman to chase.

[RedSkull]

With all the "spoilers" we've heard someones not telling the truth. There's no way this Talia is a "small" role anymore. We've heard enough material now that she's a main villain or a major character.

[Nevincer]

Oh my goodness.... I just stepped into this thread to find Raganork and Pagan at it again. Sweet baby jesus...

WHY?

:doh:

[Keyser Soze]

Oh my goodness.... I just stepped into this thread to find Raganork and Pagan at it again. Sweet baby jesus...

WHY?

:doh:

A kindred spirit!

[The_Raganork]

Madness is subjective. One person's logic can be another person's madness. My use of the word was a tad vague, but that is what I meant.

If logic depends on the use of reason, who decides what is reasonable?

Madness implies a lack of method, logic is totally dependent on strict method.

Too much at some points, you use the same formula for A as you do for Z and it ought to work.

Reason is inherent in logic (as a logician would say) so looking for where it comes from is a deeper...metalogical question.

Madness and Logic are polar opposites (as a logician would say)

Reason and Logic are synonymous

[sly]

I studied these things and passed with honors.


I'm not sure if you're trying to pretend you were too smart to give an honest evaluation on the obvious evidence of Talia being in the movie or that you just like to continuously argue how wrong you really were... therefore making you right.

It's fascinating either way.

As someone who debated the dead horse of Tate = Talia for months, it's just nice to see all the backtracking and people STILL not admitting they were wrong. I just know my eye will have a little twinkle when I finally see Talia revealed on the big screen. And I'll think of these boards. Yes, I cared about my position in the debate that much.

[The_Raganork]

I'm not sure if you're trying to pretend you were too smart to give an honest evaluation on the obvious evidence of Talia being in the movie or that you just like to continuously argue how wrong you really were... therefore making you right.

It's fascinating either way.

As someone who debated the dead horse of Tate = Talia for months, it's just nice to see all the backtracking and people STILL not admitting they were wrong. I just know my eye will have a little twinkle when I finally see Talia revealed on the big screen. And I'll think of these boards. Yes, I cared about my position in the debate that much.

Ugh READ.

That comment was only judging DarthSkywalker's evaluation of Logic itself.



It's TOTALLY INDEPENDENT from the Talia argument.


Edit: furthermore again, I'm not back peddling on anything I never said Talia was in the movie or not, simply I did not know for sure and neither did any one else.

Sometimes it feels the lot of you on this board need to Crucify someone and be angry over something. Take some time to read some post in depth and understand a few arguments before making up blatant fallacious arguments and attributing them to someone else.

[coderaven24]

Through Grant Morrison's run on Batman, Jezebel Jet emerged as a potential new major love interest for Batman. Like him, she was an incredibly wealthy CEO who had lost both her parents as a child, and she dedicated her resources to philanthropic efforts, encouraging Bruce to do the same. Eventually, she discovered that Bruce Wayne was Batman.

In Batman RIP, she lists all these perfectly valid arguments as to why Batman's lifelong quest is a madman's folly, applying real-world logic to the inherent lunacy of his crusade. She is trying to convince him to give up being Batman and live a more fulfilling life as Bruce Wayne, changing the world through philanthropy rather than superheroics. In the end, however, it turns out she's been working in tandem with villainous organisation The Black Glove to make Bruce doubt himself and thus become more vulnerable to their psychological (and ultimately, physical) attack.

I may try posting some scans later. Even before I thought that Miranda Tate might be Talia, reading the description of her character in that press release made me think of Jezebel Jet.


After researching her she does fit somewhat, some subtle differences of course.

[Sith Scotti]

With all the "spoilers" we've heard someones not telling the truth. There's no way this Talia is a "small" role anymore. We've heard enough material now that she's a main villain or a major character.
Now your jumping to conclusions . She is Talia doesn't mean she will be getting ton of scree time . Liam Neeson didn't exactly have a lot of screen time in Begins .

[DarthSkywalker]

Madness implies a lack of method, logic is totally dependent on strict method.

Too much at some points, you use the same formula for A as you do for Z and it ought to work.

Reason is inherent in logic (as a logician would say) so looking for where it comes from is a deeper...metalogical question.

Madness and Logic are polar opposites (as a logician would say)

Reason and Logic are synonymous

If you do not know the method, something may appear mad.

Both reason and logic are both man made ideas that can and do vary from person to person. What appears reasonable or logical to one, may not to another do to their method.

[coderaven24]

Now your jumping to conclusions . She is Talia doesn't mean she will be getting ton of scree time . Liam Neeson didn't exactly have a lot of screen time in Begins .

He wasn't a romantic interest, although Bruce might swing that way and we don't know it yet.


;)

[Hole Shot]

Exactly and that bothers me, since none of us are Nolan we can say we knew 100% she was Talia when Joey king was announced or we knew 100% she wasn't Talia when something else happened.

That's just really foolish

Half the fun is taking a position/making a theory and seeing how it really plays out in the movie. If that's foolish, then I'm a ****ing retard.

[The_Raganork]

If you do not know the method, something may appear mad.

Both reason and logic are both man made ideas that can and do vary from person to person. What appears reasonable or logical to one, may not to another do to their method.

I don't disagree with you, I was only giving you the logician answer, to which i am not.

That being said, logic is pretty solid

[Hole Shot]

He wasn't a romantic interest, although Bruce might swing that way and we don't know it yet.


;)

Not sure if Tate/Talia is either. The one time we've seen Selina she's talking to Bruce in the rain and grabs his hand as they make for a cab.

[Sith Scotti]

He wasn't a romantic interest, although Bruce might swing that way and we don't know it yet.


;)
Who said Talia is was a romantic interest ? That part is more likely going to be filled by Selena ? .
Catwoman is the love interest.
Talia is the villian

[The_Raganork]

Half the fun is taking a position/making a theory and seeing how it really plays out in the movie. If that's foolish, then I'm a ****ing retard.

Again, you're twisting what I'm saying.

you can have a position. Just know your position could be wrong.

My only beef is with people who were positive they couldn't be wrong about Tate being Talia.

If you said she probably was but, you could be wrong, I have no argument against that

[coderaven24]

Who said Talias was a romantic interest ? That part is morev likely going to be filled by Selena

Its part of her character, leaving it out would by similar to making Batman indifferent to Catwoman like a standard criminal.

She becomes a bit hollow and a very boring character unless their is some tension between the two.

[Doc Holliday]

Not sure if Tate/Talia is either. The one time we've seen Selina she's talking to Bruce in the rain and grabs his hand as they make for a cab.

Possible love triangle? And then Bruce finds out they're both of questionable morality?

[Sith Scotti]

Its part of her character, leaving it out would by similar to making Batman indifferent to Catwoman like a standard criminal.

She becomes a bit hollow and a very boring character unless their is some tension between the two.
Oh there will be tension when she stabs him in the back. Delena is the female lead in the film . . You shouldn't expect it to play out like the comic .

[Cats]

And Nolan did say he was looking for a love interest for Batman when he was casting the role of Talia (although now we see that she's Miranda Tate).

[Keyser Soze]

Right....

TO THOSE WHO THOUGHT TATE WOULDN'T BE TALIA:

It was never confirmed, and still isn't confirmed, but piecing together the casting, the plot rumors and what we've gleaned from set reports and pics, concluding that Miranda Tate would in fact be Talia was a very reasonable assumption, and a highly educated guess. It may not be CONFIRMED, but you could certainly say by this stage it's "all but CONFIRMED." So go along with that and admit that you were wrong about the direction of Marion Cottilard's character - it's not the end of the world.

TO THOSE WHO THOUGHT TATE WOULD BE TALIA:

Even if it is now looking like you were right, accept the idea that there was always a possibility you could have been wrong. Plenty of times in this series it has seemed like all the arrows have been pointing towards one thing, only for them to then shift into something else entirely. No matter how obvious or inevitable it may have seemed to guess there was more to it, all Marion Cotillard was confirmed to be playing was Miranda Tate, Wayne Enterprises board member. And so accept that you were dealing in the realm of speculation and theory, rather than definite fact.

Can we stop fighting now?

[Sith Scotti]

There is absolutely no evidence that Talia will be a love interest , so to assume so based on some comics , which by the way she was also a love interest of Bane's is ridiculous.


Could there be ?

Yes , but I find it far more likely to be Hathaway's part as there will be far too mich going for there to be too many romantic subplots .

[Keyser Soze]

There is absolutely no evidence that Talia will be a love interest , so to assume so based on some comics , which by the way she was also a love interest of Bane's is ridiculous.


Could there be ?

Yes , but I find it far more likely to be Hathaway's part as there will be far too mich going for there to be too many romantic subplots .

I think we'll see a switcheroo where, in the early stages of the movie, Miranda Tate appears to be a prospective love interest while Catwoman appears to be a villain, but by the end of the film Miranda Tate has revealed herself as Talia and emerged as the true villain and Catwoman has turned out to be a much more suitable love interest for Batman.

[sly]

Ugh READ. That comment was only judging DarthSkywalker's evaluation of Logic itself.


Were you not saying you applied said logic to the Talia debate, therefore came to your conclusion?



Take some time to read some post in depth and understand a few arguments before making up blatant fallacious arguments and attributing them to someone else


I participated in the arguments a lot and never read you jumping to defend our position. Just a few "she could or could not be," which was a lot better than most people... but... you only liked to use your logic argument against the pro-Talia position if we took a hardline in it. What about using that against the hardline pro-Taters that basically mocked anyone who dare believe the (mountain) of circumstantial evidence?

Would we have won in court? Probably not, but we certainly weren't grasping at straws or just making a lucky guess.

[Sith Scotti]

I think we'll see a switcheroo where, in the early stages of the movie, Miranda Tate appears to be a prospective love interest while Catwoman appears to be a villain, but by the end of the film Miranda Tate has revealed herself as Talia and emerged as the true villain and Catwoman has turned out to be a much more suitable love interest for Batman.

I could definitely see that. Though if Marion said her part was small , who knows . She maybe being coy or she might not be . Its all a guessing game , unlike the Talia part where there is evidence building


I always believed Selena would have the reverse Harvey arc , where she redeems herself (and in a way Batman)

[Doc Holliday]

There is absolutely no evidence that Talia will be a love interest , so to assume so based on some comics , which by the way she was also a love interest of Bane's is ridiculous.


Could there be ?

Yes , but I find it far more likely to be Hathaway's part as there will be far too mich going for there to be too many romantic subplots .

But where does the precedent for Selina Kyle to be a love interest come from? The comics. I guess that's ridiculous, too.

[coderaven24]

There is absolutely no evidence that Talia will be a love interest , so to assume so based on some comics , which by the way she was also a love interest of Bane's is ridiculous.


Could there be ?

Yes , but I find it far more likely to be Hathaway's part as there will be far too mich going for there to be too many romantic subplots .

Just Wow.

This is why I don't like Talia being in this film. Both Her and Selina will be love interest in this film. Yes Talia's relationship can only end badly.

the evidence is comic books, and the casting call and the description of Miranda Tate before discovering she was Talia.

Yes, and she most likely will be Banes girl before going undercover at WE but that is just me speculating with no evidence and using what little I know about the characters from the comic books.

Talia is a character who is torn with loyalty to her Father and Loves Bruce at the same time. Taking that away is like taking Catwoman's ears, it isn't happening.

[antsman41]

Bruce is a pimp, easy as that...

[RedSkull]

Now your jumping to conclusions . She is Talia doesn't mean she will be getting ton of scree time . Liam Neeson didn't exactly have a lot of screen time in Begins .

he had more than what I'd consider a small role. TO properly back up her character with backstory that makes sense than she's going to need to have at least that much screentime.

[Sith Scotti]

But where does the precedent for Selina Kyle to be a love interest come from? The comics. I guess that's ridiculous, too.
You know that more people know who Catwoman is and is far more recognizable as a love interest than Talia to the mainstream public . We have also seen it in movies , tv shows and cartoons . The history between Bruce and Selena is far richer and longer .

[Doc Holliday]

You know that more people know who Catwoman is and is far more recognizable as a love interest than Talia to the mainstream public . We have also seen it in movies , tv shows and cartoons . The history between Bruce and Selena is far richer and longer .

But that doesn't mean having Talia as a love interest is "ridiculous" by any means. In fact, Nolan seems to like to blaze his own trail in a lot of aspects of his Batman movies, so why wouldn't he stray from the norm on the love interest too?

[antsman41]

But, Talia is Bat's baby momma...

lol

[Sith Scotti]

But that doesn't mean having Talia as a love interest is "ridiculous" by any means. In fact, Nolan seems to like to blaze his own trail in a lot of aspects of his Batman movies, so why wouldn't he stray from the norm on the love interest too?

Never said he couldn't just said we shouldn't assume anything .


As far as Damian and Talia, Grant Morrison 's Batman arc was complete fasntastical garbage and Nolan should stay clear of that crapola

[coderaven24]

You know that more people know who Catwoman is and is far more recognizable as a love interest than Talia to the mainstream public . We have also seen it in movies , tv shows and cartoons . The history between Bruce and Selena is far richer and longer .

Richer and longer, but Catwoman is a character that stands on he own without the relationship with Batman. Hell originally she was presented a villain in the Adam West camp.

Talia is just Ras's daughter, there is not much to her character without the tension.

[ThePhantasm]

Why can't there be a love triangle?

[coderaven24]

Why can't there be a love triangle?

I think there will.

[Blue Sugar]

I think there will.

And fanboys will rave about Team Selina and Team Talia! :awesome:

[antsman41]

Who says Bruce can't have both?

[kvz5]

I'm sure Miranda will seduce Bruce and there will be some sort of love triangle. Just not sure if she will really fall for him specially if she will stab him.

[flickchick85]

There is absolutely no evidence that Talia will be a love interest , so to assume so based on some comics , which by the way she was also a love interest of Bane's is ridiculous.
When Cotillard was cast as Miranda Tate, the trades described her character as a "potential love interest." They didn't say that about Anne/Selina when she was cast. So I don't think it's any more ridiculous to expect it from Talia than Selina.

[coderaven24]

I'm sure Miranda will seduce Bruce and there will be some sort of love triangle. Just not sure if she will really fall for him specially if she will stab him.

Or will she stab him because she is torn by commands from her true lover( Bane ) and loyalty of her father.
If Bruce lives, is it because she stabbed in a way that he would because she couldn't go thru with it, or because he resisted. This is all speculation with no proof but without seeing the film none of us really have no idea.

All rumors and spoilers aren't much without context to the story.

[Figs]

Right....

TO THOSE WHO THOUGHT TATE WOULDN'T BE TALIA:

It was never confirmed, and still isn't confirmed, but piecing together the casting, the plot rumors and what we've gleaned from set reports and pics, concluding that Miranda Tate would in fact be Talia was a very reasonable assumption, and a highly educated guess. It may not be CONFIRMED, but you could certainly say by this stage it's "all but CONFIRMED." So go along with that and admit that you were wrong about the direction of Marion Cottilard's character - it's not the end of the world.

TO THOSE WHO THOUGHT TATE WOULD BE TALIA:

Even if it is now looking like you were right, accept the idea that there was always a possibility you could have been wrong. Plenty of times in this series it has seemed like all the arrows have been pointing towards one thing, only for them to then shift into something else entirely. No matter how obvious or inevitable it may have seemed to guess there was more to it, all Marion Cotillard was confirmed to be playing was Miranda Tate, Wayne Enterprises board member. And so accept that you were dealing in the realm of speculation and theory, rather than definite fact.

Can we stop fighting now?

Best post in here for who knows how many ****ing pages. There is another poster I agree with, but not going to name names since I don't want to get involved in this horse **** run around argument.

I can't wait for an official announcement to get the convo moving onto something a bit different.

[Majik1387]

To be fair, prior to the video of Talia with the terrorists, there was nothing more to suggest she was Talia than there was for Anthony Michael Hall or the character of Coleman Reese as the Riddler.

[slimshady247]

he wasn't replying to you.

And that matters because...?

The point still stands. Need I post it again?


I wonder why so many hate the idea of Talia running things? Do you feel like she has emasculated your big ,strong muscle man? Do you fear strong women?

I think it's a perfect fit for the story. You guys knew Nolan was bringing this full circle. You knew Pence had been hired to play a young al Ghul. You saw the India photos. Heard the chants. Knew a Marion lookalike Joey King was cast the same time as Pence. To say you couldn't see it happening is admitting to being in denial.

You really think Nolan cast a best actress Oscar winning person for a simple board member? really? I think a little introspection is due.

:facepalm:

[coderaven24]

To be fair, prior to the video of Talia with the terrorists, there was nothing more to suggest she was Talia than there was for Anthony Michael Hall or the character of Coleman Reese as the Riddler.

If that is the case your throwing out hints of Raz, Casting Calls and League of shadows reports etc, and Jezebel Jet makes more sense.

There have always been some hints, but no solid evidence until now and still not a 100 percent Jezebel Jet does fit without the other items as well.

[Majik1387]

Ra's has had many stories without Talia. Hearing him have a role again did not neccessarily =/= Talia.
Casting Calls? Yeah, check out my past posts when the 6 actress report came out, I said then Talia was a possibility as well as Sofia Falcone and other roles it could be.
I'm drawing a blank to LoS reports though. I mean I'm sure there were, but I don't know which ones you're referring to as all the ones I remember are from after Pence Ra's was rumored/cast/

[Sith Scotti]

When Cotillard was cast as Miranda Tate, the trades described her character as a "potential love interest." They didn't say that about Anne/Selina when she was cast. So I don't think it's any more ridiculous to expect it from Talia than Selina.

There have also been reports that it will be Batman & Catwoman working as allies to stop Bane & Talia. , so lets play the speculation game . The fact that Talia stabs him is plus one for Team Selena.:awesome:

[coderaven24]

Ra's has had many stories without Talia. Hearing him have a role again did not neccessarily =/= Talia.
Casting Calls? Yeah, check out my past posts when the 6 actress report came out, I said then Talia was a possibility as well as Sofia Falcone and other roles it could be.
I'm drawing a blank to LoS reports though. I mean I'm sure there were, but I don't know which ones you're referring to as all the ones I remember are from after Pence Ra's was rumored/cast/

Then we should be in agreement, there have been hints and nothing more.
A lot more hints then say speculating the Riddler or Jack Ryder being in the film.

[coderaven24]

There have also been reports that it will be Batman & Catwoman working as allies to stop Bane & Talia. , so lets play the speculation game . The fact that Talia stabs him is plus one for Team Selena.:awesome:

LOL, true.

I personally don't think Talia and ole Bruce have a happy ending :)

[Majik1387]

No, my Riddler comparison was for his rumored role in TDK, not this film.

[coderaven24]

No, my Riddler comparison was for his rumored role in TDK, not this film.

My fault then, I wasn't around here during TDK so not sure what all leaked and was speculated before it.

[kvz5]

There have also been reports that it will be Batman & Catwoman working as allies to stop Bane & Talia. , so lets play the speculation game . The fact that Talia stabs him is plus one for Team Selena.:awesome:

:awesome:

[Alex Logan]

Dude, you're on the spoiler forum. Not everything has to be spoilered. People expect spoilers here.

Look, I don't really care because it's not true anyway. What really bothers me is the guy comes and creates an account just to ask a stupid question.

[Secret Fawful]

Talia is a much stronger character than you give her credit for.

A. She's not easily and automatically relegated to a sex symbol/object like Catwoman and Poison Ivy tend to be.

B. The conflict in her head between her love for Bruce and her love for her father can still be done with her father dead and killed by Bruce. I'm shocked no one can see this. Add in a conflict between Bruce and Bane in her head, and you've got plenty of tension and conflict in the story.

C. Her agendas and ideals are not exactly the same as Ras, meaning she's not just a carbon copy rehash of him, and her conflict with his ideals adds all the more weight to her character.

[coderaven24]

Talia is a much stronger character than you give her credit for.

A. She's not easily and automatically relegated to a sex symbol/object like Catwoman and Poison Ivy tend to be.

B. The conflict in her head between her love for Bruce and her love for her father can still be done with her father dead and killed by Bruce. I'm shocked no one can see this. Add in a conflict between Bruce and Bane in her head, and you've got plenty of tension and conflict in the story.

C. Her agendas and ideals are not exactly the same as Ras, meaning she's not just a carbon copy rehash of him, and her conflict with his ideals adds all the more weight to her character.

Agreed.

[Frosty81]

Miranda Tate definitely dresses like an average office worker.

[RedSkull]

Miranda Tate definitely dresses like an average office worker.

you're kidding right? You mean the photos in the maroon dress with gold trim? Definitely Ras colors.

[Frosty81]

you're kidding right? You mean the photos in the maroon dress with gold trim? Definitely Ras colors.

That was my dry sarcasm for all the people who said that Talia wasn't in the movie.:cwink:

[KalMart]

Why can't there be a love triangle?

I vote yes on a three-way.

[DaveMoral]

The bickering is definitely stale. The shame of it is that many participants from either side derided each other and set up strawmen to then knock down with ease. Most of those came from the "no Talia" side of the debate. Very few people arguing the Tate could be Talia actually said it was certain. Most presented a series of circumstantial evidence with the caveat that it could easily go the other way. Unfortunately that circumstantial evidence was scoffed at and the attempts to refute it we're full of hyperbole("I could say she was Diana Prince and that's just as valid" or "she could be Batgirl") or strawmen("they think Tate is Talia because she looks like Joey King and a young Ra's is confirmed"). All of that in spite of a slew of puzzle pieces that fit together to show hints of Talia and no one else. Now a huge enough piece of the puzzle is filled in that Talia is all but confirmed and there are those that still refuse to at least admit there were some some ridiculous shenanigans going on on their parts.

I still say there's potential for Tate not to be Talia however unlikely that may be.

[UUBee]

The bickering is definitely stale. The shame of it is that many participants from either side derided each other and set up strawmen to then knock down with ease. Most of those came from the "no Talia" side of the debate. Very few people arguing the Tate could be Talia actually said it was certain. Most presented a series of circumstantial evidence with the caveat that it could easily go the other way. Unfortunately that circumstantial evidence was scoffed at and the attempts to refute it we're full of hyperbole("I could say she was Diana Prince and that's just as valid" or "she could be Batgirl") or strawmen("they think Tate is Talia because she looks like Joey King and a young Ra's is confirmed"). All of that in spite of a slew of puzzle pieces that fit together to show hints of Talia and no one else. Now a huge enough piece of the puzzle is filled in that Talia is all but confirmed and there are those that still refuse to at least admit there were some some ridiculous shenanigans going on on their parts.

I still say there's potential for Tate not to be Talia however unlikely that may be.


How about if someone from the production told you she was? :cwink:

[thedarks0ldier]

I vote yes on a three-way.

I second and triple that.

[DaveMoral]

How about if someone from the production told you she was? :cwink:

You mean someone from the production told some Tate is Talisman? That's one thing. I'm fairly sure she is we just don't have an official statement to that effect.

[Alex Logan]

Has anyone else read Batman RIP by Grant Morrison? Could the portayal of Jezebel Jet in that story possibly inform some of how Miranda Tate is handled in this movie?

Yes, I own all the books in that story. Maybe, but I knew Jezebel Jet was out to get him from the start. It was too easy.

[flickchick85]

To be fair, prior to the video of Talia with the terrorists, there was nothing more to suggest she was Talia than there was for Anthony Michael Hall or the character of Coleman Reese as the Riddler.
Sure there was. The trades never suggested that Hall was the Riddler, or that the character was in TDK at all. They did with Talia. The Hollywood Reporter directly stated that their sources indicated one of the two female leads was Talia, before the other one was identified as Catwoman:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/blogs/heat-vision/shortlist-actresses-vying-batman-film-70529

And unlike the blogs and movie websites, the Hollywood Reporter isn't known for pulling stuff out of their a**. But speaking of those flaky grain-of-salt movie sites, they were the first ones to tell us there were two lead female roles, that one was Catwoman and one was Talia, and linked Cotillard to them. The trades backing them up months later with that same information suggested that that particular report may have had actual merit.

Then there's the fact that this was a recent Oscar-winner we were talking about, and not some unknown or 80's has-been, so that should have been an indicator that this was actually a major player this time, and not just random fan delusions of grandeur.

Add to that all the circumstantial stuff: The fact that we KNEW we were getting Al Ghul flashbacks. The name coincidences. The kid they cast who resembles her right after casting Josh Pence for the flashback, and who just so happened to be the exact age to play daughter to a 30-year-old Pence. All of these COULD have meant other things individually, but when viewed all together, it was a lot of potential arrows pointing to Talia that people were just choosing to ignore because they didn't like the idea. I didn't care for the idea either, but I couldn't ignore that stuff.

That was A LOT more than just a name coincidence with Reese or random hearsay that Hall might be The Riddler.

ETA: Just for the record, I'm not saying Joey King is definitely playing young Talia. I just feel it went from "possibility" to "strong possibility" now.

[sly]

That was A LOT more than just a name coincidence with Reese or random hearsay that Hall might be The Riddler.


Ding. It really didn't take much brain power, but I'm sure everyone in the Tate = Talia camp appreciates being made to look like geniuses.

[UUBee]

You mean someone from the production told some Tate is Talisman? That's one thing. I'm fairly sure she is we just don't have an official statement to that effect.

That's the thing. I just gave you one.

[Ledlunar]

Hey guys its been awhile, Whats all this "stabbing" talk to do with Tate? I seen the pictures did I miss one or something?

[RedSkull]

Hey guys its been awhile, Whats all this "stabbing" talk to do with Tate? I seen the pictures did I miss one or something?

a leaked spoiler is apparently that she stabs bruce/batman

[Ledlunar]

hmm interesting thanks, anyone know how reliable the source is? Sounds like she is gonna be Talia IMO. Stealing her dads old name trick.

[Doc Holliday]

That's the thing. I just gave you one.

You're not involved in the production. You've done nothing but vaguely hint at bogus scoops for several weeks now.

[flickchick85]

hmm interesting thanks, anyone know how reliable the source is?
The source is subaru, the guy who's been getting us all this great footage from the set. But he didn't see the scene in question first-hand (it was supposedly shot inside the "Gotham City Hall" set, where cameras weren't allowed), so it's not necessarily a sure thing. But it does fit with what we've seen so far, and subaru's been a reliable source of everything lately, so if he believes it, I'm inclined to as well.

[The Wizard]

So, it seems like Tate may turn out to be Talia, after all? I saw the photo of Marion with the armed mercs. Any idea what building they were passing? It had very large columns. Anyway, how have those mercs been linked to Bane in photos?

[DaveMoral]

So, it seems like Tate may turn out to be Talia, after all? I saw the photo of Marion with the armed mercs. Any idea what building they were passing? It had very large columns. Anyway, how have those mercs been linked to Bane in photos?

The name of the specific building at Carnegie Mellon escapes me but in the film it's Gotham City Hall.

[batbax]

Yaaaaay some of you got Tate= talia right, great job(most likely). Soo how much longer are we going to have to hear how intelligent and overwhelmingly righteous you are? I figure it's been what, 2 days now? Pretty sure that's long enough for the ego stroking not to continue much longer. But I'm sure some will still be patting themselves in the back until July 2012.

[batbax]

Ding. It really didn't take much brain power, but I'm sure everyone in the Tate = Talia camp appreciates being made to look like geniuses.

Case in point.

[Hurm...]

hmm interesting thanks, anyone know how reliable the source is? Sounds like she is gonna be Talia IMO. Stealing her dads old name trick.
If that's the case...

When it's revealed to Bruce that she is Talia, he NEEDS to say...

"LOL, Oldest trick in the book!":awesome:

Please Nolan!

[Nightrunner]

So Tate is Talia then?

What i dont get though is why so many people in this thread are chastising others just because they believed this rumor. The rumor now seems to be confirmed, so now what?

[Doctor Who]

So Tate is Talia then?

What i dont get though is why so many people in this thread are chastising others just because they believed this rumor. The rumor now seems to be confirmed, so now what?

Because these are nay-saying fan boys who don't want her in the movie and will go the length to say anything that she's not in the movie.

It's a stupid fight, but it's always been and it will always be until half the coop jump the bandwagon. :oldrazz:

[ThePhantasm]

A lot of people are scared that because Talia is in the movie Bane is going to be her Ubu or something. I think they'll have equal authority in the LOS personally - Talia as Ra's daughter, Bane as Ra's chosen successor.

[Doctor Who]

A lot of people are scared that because Talia is in the movie Bane is going to be her Ubu or something. I think they'll have equal authority in the LOS personally - Talia as Ra's daughter, Bane as Ra's chosen successor.

I'm not sure how that part will pan out, but it will be interesting; perhaps something from Bane of the Demon and Legacy, for sure. :word:

[dark_b]

Ubu from BB?he never got a lot of screentime.

Bane is a classic main villain.

[GregComicFan]

A lot of people are scared that because Talia is in the movie Bane is going to be her Ubu or something. I think they'll have equal authority in the LOS personally - Talia as Ra's daughter, Bane as Ra's chosen successor.

I don't know why people are worried. Hasn't it been stated already by Nolan that Bane is the villain of TDKR? Also, when has Nolan ever really given a character the short end of a stick? I don't think he has. Everyone gets appropriate treatment.

[MagnarTheGreat]

I'm excited is all I can say. I didn't make my Wiki for no reason apparently. :yay:

[Sikri06]

One thing that just occurred to me - though it's surely been mentioned a hundred times already - about something that makes Talia the perfect villain to end the trilogy. Batman was created as a response to his parents' death. But now he is in the position where he himself is responsible for the death of someone's father, and they have in turn emerged for their own kind of "justice".

The "revenge of the father"-thing is what I really fear about Talia. It misrepresents Talia if she is an evil mastermind controlling Bane and is solely looking to revenge her father. If she is looking for revenge, then I would like her character to go through a third change after the “Tate is really Talia” one. A change of heart towards Batman, so that she forgives him for killing her father and realize that her father’s ideology was sick to begin with.
Talia is more of an anti-heroine than she is a true villain, and if she is portrayed to be an evil mastermind like her father, it would be a shame. (But if she has to be Talia, I would like her to be pregnant by the end of the movie)

[Sith Scotti]

Talia has never been an anti herorne . Just because she falls for Bruce doesn't make her any less of an agent of evil . Sometimes the good girtls falls for the bad guy in this case its the bad girl falling for the good guy.

Selena is more of anti herorine

[CJ]

Also, when has Nolan ever really given a character the short end of a stick?

Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow in Batman Begins.

I went into that movie expecting him to be the main villain. Seeing him get tasered at the end then forgotten about pissed me off immensely. I wanted him to be the main villain, not the boring and uninteresting Ras.

[ThePhantasm]

Seeing him get tasered at the end then forgotten about pissed me off immensely. I wanted him to be the main villain, not the boring and uninteresting Ras.

I agree. That's the one part of BB that I still hate to this day. His appearance in TDK didn't really make up for it either.

I'd still like to see him on screen one day with a large hat and scythe.

[Marck87]

What if Talia just sees Bruce as worthy of her since he beat her father but Bane has other intentions?

[Godzilla2014]

Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow in Batman Begins.

I went into that movie expecting him to be the main villain. Seeing him get tasered at the end then forgotten about pissed me off immensely. I wanted him to be the main villain, not the boring and uninteresting Ras.

I think that Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow would have been fine if they hadn't shown Rachel Dawes tasing him at the end. Had he not appeared after he was broken out of Arkham Asylum (I think that was his last appearance prior to being tased), then he would have been left a much more menacing loose end to be dealt with in The Dark Knight.
To prove this, I once watched Batman Begins and simply ignored him getting tased, and doing so improved my perception of his treatment in the film immensely.

[coderaven24]

I think that Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow would have been fine if they hadn't shown Rachel Dawes tasing him at the end. Had he not appeared after he was broken out of Arkham Asylum (I think that was his last appearance prior to being tased), then he would have been left a much more menacing loose end to be dealt with in The Dark Knight.
To prove this, I once watched Batman Begins and simply ignored him getting tased, and doing so improved my perception of his treatment in the film immensely.

Nail on the head.

+1

[Godzilla2014]

Nail on the head.

+1

Thank you!

[sly]

Yaaaaay some of you got Tate= talia right, great job(most likely). Soo how much longer are we going to have to hear how intelligent and overwhelmingly righteous you are?


Hm... I was matter-of-factly told I was wrong since like February... so I'd say 6 more months of reminding you will suffice.

[thedarks0ldier]

Hm... I was matter-of-factly told I was wrong since like February... so I'd say 6 more months of reminding you will suffice.

Stick it all of them, this is your time to gloat amigo.

[Sikri06]

thinking about how Ra's seemed clearly estranged from his family in BB, it would be interesting if it was Bane who got into Talia's head and is really who got her onto this revenge kick (if that's what it is) in the first place. Like, he manipulates and f***s with her head to use her, and it backfires on him in the end when she wises up to it.

This is the best way I can see this pan out. It makes Bane the evil mastermind instead of Talia and it makes her realize that she was wrong.

[GregComicFan]

Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow in Batman Begins.

I went into that movie expecting him to be the main villain. Seeing him get tasered at the end then forgotten about pissed me off immensely. I wanted him to be the main villain, not the boring and uninteresting Ras.

Scarecrow went out like a wimp, but I thought he was represented well throughout the rest of the film.

Villains like Scarecrow and Riddler don't present much of a physical threat and never have... therefore I don't mind them being taken out easily.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I'm a little late to the party but it's pretty much confirmed by pictures that Cotillard is not just playing Miranda Tate, right?

[Sikri06]

I'm not so sure Ra's is alive. IF (still a pretty big if) the pits are in the film chances are his body was destroyed beyond even their repair. From the books I've read the pits have their limits.

Now take into consideration this : Ra's was grooming Bruce to be his heir and to marry him off to Talia. (per Denny O'Neal's Batman Begins novel) If Talia wishes to fulfill his dream then she probably will want this to happen. Her other option is Bane and I don't think she particularly cares for him like that.
In her dealings with Bruce as Miranda she falls for him. She wants him to return and rule with her. And have a kid with him that is to her, a genetic masterpiece and suitable for the lineage of Ra's.

So she has a relationship with him. All the while undermining his business covertly. She wants to remove any reason he would have to make him stay in Gotham and continue being Bruce Wayne and Batman.
She may even allow herself to get pregnant. Thinking that that will be enough leverage (he really wants a family) to sway him.
Of course he spurns her offer and that makes her all stabby.

I think your on to something.

[dark_b]

I'm a little late to the party but it's pretty much confirmed by pictures that Cotillard is not just playing Miranda Tate, right?Subaru the guy who shot the video and took pictures said that it looked like she was part of Bane's soldiers when she walks down the stairs . it didnt look like she was kidnapped and forced into the tumbler.

in the same movie that Marion works for Wayne in the same movie Wayne's new tumblers get stolen.plus her clothes look like clothes from LOS in BB. plus all the info from Devin Faraci that some are saying was made up by Devin.

i think she is a villain. :yay:

[I SEE SPIDEY]

^Then why the hell was I b**ched at for suggesting it when she was announced?

[dark_b]

^Then why the hell was I b**ched at for suggesting it when she was announced?well maybe she is not.

some have a theory. Miranda Tale starts as a good girl who works for Wayne. then she reveals that she is Talia so is a villain. but at the end she helps Batman and forgives him for Ras.

yeah i know. you counted that right. 2 times. she changed sides 2 times. .................... :dry:

[I SEE SPIDEY]

We are ruinning the film for ourselves.

Anyway, I'm just saying that when I theorized (I gave up on the theory soon after) that Tate could be Ras's kid who was out for revenge I was told that that was impossible and now it looks like it's going to happen. That just kinda pisses me off.

As for those theories, well I obviously won't rule anything out but that sounds cheesy but then again I dislike the very idea of the long lost never mentioned daughter comming back for revenge so what do I know?

[dark_b]

well i know that she is Talia. but on SHH we have to be open minded and whait for the movie to come out. hehehe ;)

she has LOS clothes and is walking in Bane's tumbler.and this girl on the right was cast for Ras flashbacks. yeah she looks nothing like Marion :awesome:
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/570/cotillardking.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/220/cotillardking.jpg/)

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I wanted the rumors to be untrue. I hope Nolan doesn't step back into Batman Begins land because I disliked alot about that film.

[Sikri06]

Talia has never been an anti herorne . Just because she falls for Bruce doesn't make her any less of an agent of evil . Sometimes the good girtls falls for the bad guy in this case its the bad girl falling for the good guy.

Selena is more of anti herorine

My point was that she is not a true villain in the sense that her father is. She is much more of a grey character. If she just takes her fathers position as the leader of the LOS it wouldn’t fit.

[Cats]

My point was that she is not a true villain in the sense that her father is. She is much more of a gray character. If she just takes her fathers position as the leader of the LOS it wouldn’t fit.

She would do it for her father. We've seen Talia put her father's wishes over her own countless times in the comics, wouldn't she do the same here?

[Alex Logan]

She would do it for her father. We've seen Talia put her father's wishes over her own countless times in the comics, wouldn't she do the same here?

She's also done the opposite in the comics. There's no way to tell what she will do.

[TruerToTheCore]

If that's the case...

When it's revealed to Bruce that she is Talia, he NEEDS to say...

"LOL, Oldest trick in the book!":awesome:

Please Nolan!

Don't forget that the general audience doesn't know jack about Talia, so if played right it might be a good twist for many people.

Some people didn't even make the Sidious = Palpatine connection :woot:

[Sikri06]

She would do it for her father. We've seen Talia put her father's wishes over her own countless times in the comics, wouldn't she do the same here?

But her father isn't present and if he is (Liam Neeson cameo not being a flashback), then why doesn't he take the LOS leadership himself? How can he tell her what to do from beyond the grave?

[Sith Scotti]

But her father isn't present and if he is (Liam Neeson cameo not being a flashback), then why doesn't he take the LOS leader position himself? How can he tell her what to do from beyond the grave?

The fact that he maybe dead may giver her greater resolve to follow his wishes .

[coderaven24]

If she is a member or running the League of Shadows, then they are currently betraying their mandate.

Most of Gotham's criminals have been locked up and out of commission. Gotham is pretty much been cleaned up thanks to the fall of Batman. Just killing Bruce would satisfy their thirst for revenge. The captured pic of Bane tearing up a picture of Dent confuses me and makes me wonder if he in fact is a member of the LOS or just a pawn in Talia's game for revenge for her fathers death.

[Van Petrol]

I reckon there's a good possibility e could see a shift in -----'s loyalties, or at least some conflict there (This all presuming she is -----, of course).

[ThePhantasm]

Who is -----? You mean Talia? :oldrazz:

[Van Petrol]

Who is -----? You mean Talia? :oldrazz:

Yeah, lol. After the debacle we had previously, people were complaining at even the mere mention of her name, and it is since then I decided to just refer to her as '-----' so as to not cause any unrest. :woot: :up:

[Sith Scotti]

If she is a member or running the League of Shadows, then they are currently betraying their mandate.

Most of Gotham's criminals have been locked up and out of commission. Gotham is pretty much been cleaned up thanks to the fall of Batman. Just killing Bruce would satisfy their thirst for revenge. The captured pic of Bane tearing up a picture of Dent confuses me and makes me wonder if he in fact is a member of the LOS or just a pawn in Talia's game for revenge for her fathers death.

What mandate . ? When Ras died new leadership took over? A More extrem version , and maybe they are still absolute that Gotham must go bye bye

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Suppose Talia isn't there to avenge her father's death?

Bane probably joined with the League in order to use their training methods to better himself, then ditched them. Perhaps some word of Harvey Dent's actions draw Bane to Gotham. He learns that Dent was Two-Face, which leads to the prison break and him ripping that picture of Dent apart.

Talia is in Gotham with League members disguised as Mercenaries.She stabs Batman/Bruce Wayne to prove her allegiance to Bane. That way she could have her mercs joined with his forces, then begin their attack.

So it'd turn Gotham into a war zone of Talia and the League versus Bane and his forces. Batman would be caught in the middle of this ****storm.

[coderaven24]

What mandate . ? When Ras died new leadership took over? A More extrem version , and maybe they are still absolute that Gotham must go bye bye

They sacked Rome, stocked rats in plague ships. They have fought Crime and Injustice for thousands of years.

Ras biting the bullet would not change their goals and mandate.

[Sith Scotti]

They sacked Rome, stocked rats in plague ships. They have fought Crime and Injustice for thousands of years.

Ras biting the bullet would not change their goals and mandate.

It takes one extremist to change that view . Plus a bunch of them may fweel Batman is a danger to their cause since he was trained & turned on them Plus that could be Ras justifying his actions . The LOS are nothing but terrorists

[coderaven24]

Plus a bunch of them may fweel Batman is a danger to their cause since he was trained & turned on them

I agree that makes sense, but killing Bruce would resolve that. Destroying a cleaned up Gotham.

This just makes me think Talia might be in league with Bane, and Bane is running his own show and his own men.

[Sith Scotti]

I agree that makes sense, but killing Bruce would resolve that. Destroying a cleaned up Gotham.

This just makes me think Talia might be in league with Bane, and Bane is running his own show and his own men.

I could defintely see a scenario where Bane becomes uncontrollable and does things that even members of LOS would question

[coderaven24]

I could defintely see a sceruio where Bane becomes uncontrollable and does things that even members of LOS would question

I can agree with that.

[Tron5000]

From Daily Mail Online:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f206/harrelson2131/Dark%20Knight%20Returns/marioncotillard8511.jpg

[dark_b]

From Daily Mail Online:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f206/harrelson2131/Dark%20Knight%20Returns/marioncotillard8511.jpg
this picture makes more sense now. yes i think this is Miranda Tale in her winter clothes . :oldrazz::awesome:

[D.P.]

From Daily Mail Online:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f206/harrelson2131/Dark%20Knight%20Returns/marioncotillard8511.jpg

She looks great.

[CapedCrusader14]

She looks great.

Agreed.

[WonderWitch]

hold up! i haven't visited these boards in awhile, but i see its now safe to claim that Miranda Tate=Talia. now what could have possibly prompted this change? is it the pictures of marion in what clearly is not "miranda tate, wayne enterpries board member" gear? well, i thought the high-and-mighty posters who claimed that, for a fact, "talia will not be in this movie" (usually followed by weak insults regarding the intellect of those who would dare suggest such a ludicrous theory), would not give up so easily. heh.

[Majik1387]

Marion looks good as Talia there, but Anne looks better on the Bat-pod right now. :cwink:

[dark_b]

ok i think today its over.

we got info this week that Catwoman will be on a batpod and that she will come out of the city hall. this was from Subaru. and the same week we got that Talia will stab batman in the city hall. Marion is not jut a viilain. she is Talia. to me this it.

like it or not is a different debate. but she is Talia

[insider1970]

Marion looks good as Talia there, but Anne looks better on the Bat-pod right now. :cwink:

Yeah, with a lot of photoshop she does :oldrazz::oldrazz:(Anne's costume in the photo is another discussion :whatever:). While Marion's photo is a candid one, just wait to see her "official photos" (I think sometime later we will have one), and/or in the actual movie with all the proper lighting on, and then you can compare.. I am pretty sure that, even if she doesn't "steal the show" from Anne (which is doubtful IMO because she has the legend of CATWOMAN here to compete with), the two women will "divide" fans.. It would be interesting I think.

[dark phenom]

Never found Hathway attractive, and I doubt her Catwoman costume will change that. If Marion is Talia, well I at least hope she gets a better outfit towards the end of the movie.

[Godzilla2014]

From Daily Mail Online:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f206/harrelson2131/Dark%20Knight%20Returns/marioncotillard8511.jpg

What's with the guy brandishing a Heckler & Koch G36C in the background? I am starting to think that Miranda Tate may indeed be more than just a boardroom executive at this point.

[lililatigresse]

What's with the guy brandishing a Heckler & Koch G36C in the background? I am starting to think that Miranda Tate may indeed be more than just a boardroom executive at this point.

It's not a fact! Where's your evidence ? :woot:

[Godzilla2014]

It's not a fact! Where's your evidence ? :woot:

It's a suspected possibility based on the fact that there's a guy holding an Heckler & Koch G36C in the background. I am not saying she will be Talia, because the man behind her could have a variety of reasons to be armed. For all I know, he might be a bodyguard or maybe a SWAT team member escorting her to safety, since they have brandished H&K G36s in the previous films.

[lililatigresse]

It's a suspected possibility based on the fact that there's a guy holding an Heckler & Koch G36C in the background. I am not saying she will be Talia, because the man behind her could have a variety of reasons to be armed. For all I know, he might be a bodyguard or maybe a SWAT team member escorting her to safety, since they have brandished H&K G36s in the previous films.

Hey, I was joking :woot:

[lililatigresse]

It's a suspected possibility based on the fact that there's a guy holding an Heckler & Koch G36C in the background. I am not saying she will be Talia, because the man behind her could have a variety of reasons to be armed. For all I know, he might be a bodyguard or maybe a SWAT team member escorting her to safety, since they have brandished H&K G36s in the previous films.

Wow, you really know what kind of gun it is ?

[Wedge A.]

What's with the guy brandishing a Heckler & Koch G36C in the background? I am starting to think that Miranda Tate may indeed be more than just a boardroom executive at this point.

:dry:

Ya think? :oldrazz:

[flickchick85]

Btw, to those who thought the outfit was trying to hide her post-pregnancy body, I think you may have been mistaken. From a recent photoshoot:

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/888/006wud.jpg
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/5065/0012zd.jpg

She was back in her regular shape less than two weeks after having the kid, if you recall. The "Talia" garb is just not a form-flattering outfit.

[kvz5]

She was back in her regular shape less than two weeks after having the kid, if you recall. The "Talia" garb is just not a form-flattering outfit.

Yeah, it's not which is a shame. :(

[dark_b]

Btw, to those who thought the outfit was trying to hide her post-pregnancy body, I think you may have been mistaken. From a recent photoshoot:

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/888/006wud.jpg


She was back in her regular shape less than two weeks after having the kid, if you recall. The "Talia" garb is just not a form-flattering outfit.
this is two weeks after having her kid? :huh:
where can i see if this is true?

[American_Idiot]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f206/harrelson2131/Dark%20Knight%20Returns/marioncotillard8511.jpg

Well, if she's Talia (and we all seem pretty confident by now that she is), at least that makes 1 outta 3 new major characters introduced in this film that is recognizable. Whoohoo!

[lililatigresse]

Btw, to those who thought the outfit was trying to hide her post-pregnancy body, I think you may have been mistaken. From a recent photoshoot:

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/888/006wud.jpg
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/5065/0012zd.jpg

Here's the part of the interview about Batman :

E. You started shooting in “The Dark Knight Rises”. How do you cope with the baby?
M. When my agent in USA called me to say Christopher Nolan was writing the scenario and he had a part for me, I was ecstatic. In my opinion, “Batman” is the perfect fantasy. He’s the superhero by excellence, and I love every Batman movie, from Burton to Nolan. To me, “Batman Begins” is a feat. It was delicate to arrive after the universe of Tim Burton, which is so strong. Chris managed to reinvent Batman. But the shooting started in May and I was pregnant. I called him to tell him, and as he was writing at that time, he told me he would try to fix the schedule. He called me again a few months later to tell me it would be a “kids-friendly” shooting (he’s got 3 children himself). I play between two feedings.

I found the translation here : http://jjb.yuku.com/topic/235227/Marion-Cotillard-MEGAPOST?page=312

[MagnarTheGreat]

Gorgeous. :wow: :fhm: :hrt:

[Dragon_316ca]

Non TDKR-related, but the article states Marion been stalked by Queens woman:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/08/06/2011-08-06_marion_cotillard_stalker_is_queens_woman_who_se nt_actress_threatening_emails_vid.html

The woman should be put in jail for a long time, not for a day.

[Excelsior.]

Cotillard is a genuine fan of Batman!!! From Burton to Nolan she says?

To the bathroom....

[helloiamben]

10 bucks says that Talia/Miranda Tate has a french accent.

[Dark Sentinel]

10 bucks says that Talia/Miranda Tate has a french accent.

To be honest I hope so. Marion's particular accent is one of the few non-English-speaking French accents I actually like

[Green Ghost]

Non TDKR-related, but the article states Marion been stalked by Queens woman:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/08/06/2011-08-06_marion_cotillard_stalker_is_queens_woman_who_se nt_actress_threatening_emails_vid.html

The woman should be put in jail for a long time, not for a day.

There are some sick people in the world...this women needs to be locked away!

[madcowre]

Non TDKR-related, but the article states Marion been stalked by Queens woman:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/08/06/2011-08-06_marion_cotillard_stalker_is_queens_woman_who_se nt_actress_threatening_emails_vid.html

The woman should be put in jail for a long time, not for a day.

That horrible woman....I can't imagine how Marion must feel =/

[joker1524]

marion looks great and eventhough i was against talia being in this film, i'm hoping she does a great job at portraying the character as well...shes a very stunning woman if i might say as well

[DaveMoral]

this is two weeks after having her kid? :huh:
where can i see if this is true?

It's her first kid right? You'd be amazed at how fast a woman's body can bounce back from pregnancy and childbirth. Especially after the first.

My wife just had our second child and she doesn't really look like she was pregnant a mere 5 weeks ago.

Also, never underestimate the power of being able to afford a personal trainer...

[TheFuture]

Just reading the new stickied spoilers thread and man, if Tate is indeed Talia and it goes down as the spoilers suggest, then that will be one cold blooded *****.

[MagnarTheGreat]

Just reading the new stickied spoilers thread and man, if Tate is indeed Talia and it goes down as the spoilers suggest, then that will be one cold blooded *****.

http://i.imgur.com/pzrQt.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/tYTGH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3P2yL.jpg

http://eyeprime.net/images/2011/08/marionanne_eyeprime_500.jpg
http://media.**************.com/images/users/uploads/31625/marion-cotillard-tom-hardy-dark-knight-rises-set-03.jpg

:oldrazz:

[Majik1387]

Wow, that does look like her outfit, though not the kind of outfit I'd prefer

[TheFuture]

Hmmmm, the photos from Pittsburgh have been ridiculously spoilerish haven't they? I mean those photos of Cotillard, that's a blowing of what I assume is meant to be a major plot twist right there.

[Keyser Soze]

Hmmmm, the photos from Pittsburgh have been ridiculously spoilerish haven't they? I mean those photos of Cotillard, that's a blowing of what I assume is meant to be a major plot twist right there.

I'm thinking that I may avoid the shooting threads from now on. Got hit by a big spoiler yesterday - my own stupid fault for being too weak-willed to avoid the spoiler tag - so I think the time has come to retreat to the character threads.

[Just_Human]

Ann shouldnt stand next to Marion
Just saying

[Keyser Soze]

It's strange. Out of the three major new characters in the film, Talia al Ghul is easily the one I'm least interested in from her comics appearances. But she's the one I find myself becoming most interested in within the context of this film.

[flickchick85]

this is two weeks after having her kid? :huh:
where can i see if this is true?
No, those pics aren't from two weeks after having the kid, I was just referring to some that were. Sorry for the confusion. These are the pics I was talking about:

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3626/006gvc.jpg

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg864/scaled.php?server=864&filename=cotillardfinallyspotted.jpg&res=medium

Those were taken 12 days after she gave birth, and she was already back in great shape. That photoshoot I posted earlier was more recent than that.

[Schlosser85]

It's strange. Out of the three major new characters in the film, Talia al Ghul is easily the one I'm least interested in from her comics appearances. But she's the one I find myself becoming most interested in within the context of this film.


Same here.

I was really excited for Catwoman, but now I'm not sure.

[Keyser Soze]

It's not so much that my excitement for the other characters has dampened, rather my excitement for Talia has increased.

[flickchick85]

So I just saw Crazy, Stupid, Love. I spent half the movie trying to figure out who Steve Carell's youngest daughter reminded me of, and toward the end, I figured it out - Marion Cotillard. Imagine my surprise when I see in the credits that the kid who played her is none other than Joey King. There's officially zero doubt in my mind now that that girl is playing Young Talia. While she does resemble her in photos, that resemblance is multiplied in motion, with the facial expressions and everything.

[jazzmatik]

No, those pics aren't from two weeks after having the kid, I was just referring to some that were. Sorry for the confusion. These are the pics I was talking about:

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3626/006gvc.jpg

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg864/scaled.php?server=864&filename=cotillardfinallyspotted.jpg&res=medium

Those were taken 12 days after she gave birth, and she was already back in great shape. That photoshoot I posted earlier was more recent than that.

Woah mama.

[batbax]

Perhaps if what everyones saying is true Bout Joey king being young talia in flashbacks.... In my mind that would mean earlier in the film... So perhaps this talia twist isn't a huge twist at all and is something Nolan doesn't really mind being out there? Just a thought. I mean it would seem to make more sense to me that a flashback of lil talia would be 1st-2nd act at latest.

[kvz5]

I think the audience will know that she's Talia pretty early on.

[TheBatman072]

I think the audience will know that she's Talia pretty early on.

They still have to reveal it to Bruce. And if there's no build up to it, no tension and no mystery, there's not really any point to the reveal.

We probably won't know, and it'll probably happen at the end of the second act.

:csad:

[batbax]

Agreed.

[batbax]

Well maybe it's one of those things where the audience will know early on; and Bruce finds our later. That happens quite often in movies.Tension can be quite palpable that way. We know she's evil and out to do harm to Bruce; yet the whole time he thinks she's on his side. Def would create some tension and avoid Nolan pulling the same truck with an al ghul twice in the third act; which I'd hate to see I think

[redfirebird2008]

No, those pics aren't from two weeks after having the kid, I was just referring to some that were. Sorry for the confusion. These are the pics I was talking about:

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3626/006gvc.jpg

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg864/scaled.php?server=864&filename=cotillardfinallyspotted.jpg&res=medium

Those were taken 12 days after she gave birth, and she was already back in great shape. That photoshoot I posted earlier was more recent than that.



Wow, she's in great shape. 12 days after child birth. That's amazing.


Definitely a MILF. :awesome:

[kvz5]

Regardless of how much build up they do, I just hope that they don't drag her reveal (to Bruce) all the way to the 3rd act. I want it to be done and over with by the 2nd act at the latest.

[batbax]

Regardless of how much build up they do, I just hope that they don't drag her reveal (to Bruce) all the way to the 3rd act. I want it to be done and over with by the 2nd act at the latest.

Yeah. Two al ghuls.. Same twist.. Third act... No thanks. After the brilliance of tdk it would be lame.. That's the only thing I'm truly opposed to seeing.

[TheBatman072]

Well maybe it's one of those things where the audience will know early on; and Bruce finds our later. That happens quite often in movies.Tension can be quite palpable that way. We know she's evil and out to do harm to Bruce; yet the whole time he thinks she's on his side. Def would create some tension and avoid Nolan pulling the same truck with an al ghul twice in the third act; which I'd hate to see I think

Regardless of how much build up they do, I just hope that they don't drag her reveal (to Bruce) all the way to the 3rd act. I want it to be done and over with by the 2nd act at the latest.

If she reveals herself and stabs Batman during one of his epic fights with Bane, then that's not going to happen.

Otherwise there's no drama. It'd basically be a "oh, she's that one guy from the first movie's daughter. Cool I guess."

I highly doubt the general audience will know. Just like they didn't know that Liam was actually Ra's in Begins.

Actually, think about it like that. Think about if we all knew ahead of time(regardless of how much Liam looked like Ra's moreso than Watanabe) that Liam was actually the real Ra's. How would that birthday party scene reveal feel? Not very shocking eh? If we knew Liam was Ra's the whole time, and then he revealed himself to Bruce there, there would be absolutely no shock in that moment for the audience. None.

[redfirebird2008]

Yeah. Two al ghuls.. Same twist.. Third act... No thanks. After the brilliance of tdk it would be lame.. That's the only thing I'm truly opposed to seeing.


TDK's third act was awful, not brilliant. As far as the Al Ghul twist thing, it would just be more proof of how unintelligent Nolan's Bruce is.

[kvz5]

The fight with Bane can happen at the 2nd act (with the eventual Talia reveal).

[TheBatman072]

The fight with Bane can happen at the 2nd act (with the eventual Talia reveal).

And what I'm saying is that if the audience knows she's Talia ahead of time, and Bruce doesn't, there's no shock value for the audience.

Just like with Liam's Ra's. If we knew he was Ra's the whole time, there wouldn't be any shock to his reveal to Bruce.

[batbax]

TDK's third act was awful, not brilliant. As far as the Al Ghul twist thing, it would just be more proof of how unintelligent Nolan's Bruce is.

Lol k. Tdk 3rd act was awful.. To you. To me it was brilliant.

[GrimmReaper7]

TDK's third act was awful, not brilliant. As far as the Al Ghul twist thing, it would just be more proof of how unintelligent Nolan's Bruce is.

Yeah I thought Batman was "The World's Greatest Detective"?:o

[kvz5]

And what I'm saying is that if the audience knows she's Talia ahead of time, and Bruce doesn't, there's no shock value for the audience.

Just like with Liam's Ra's. If we knew he was Ra's the whole time, there wouldn't be any shock to his reveal to Bruce.

A shock value for the audience might not even be the goal. The goal might be to let in the audience on this "secret" and feel for Bruce. Whenever she's doing something "nice" and "helping out" Bruce, the audience will feel and worry for Bruce because they know that he's being tricked. It will also make the audience root for Bruce/Selina more specially if a love triangle comes into play.

Also, revealing her to the audience early on will be a slightly different take on what they did with BB.

[batbax]

And what I'm saying is that if the audience knows she's Talia ahead of time, and Bruce doesn't, there's no shock value for the audience.

Just like with Liam's Ra's. If we knew he was Ra's the whole time, there wouldn't be any shock to his reveal to Bruce.

What I was saying too was if there us a little talia flashback, which it appears there might be, chances are solid that the audience at the very minimum will be suspicious of Miranda being talia. if that flashback takes place somewhat early on. Personally I'm shocked talia is in this. Very surprised nolans taking that route.

[TheBatman072]

A shock value for the audience might not even be the goal. The goal might be to let in the audience on this "secret" and feel for Bruce. Whenever she's doing something "nice" and "helping out" Bruce, the audience will feel and worry for Bruce because they know that he's being tricked. It will also make the audience root for Bruce/Selina more specially if a love triangle comes into play.

Also, revealing her to the audience early on will be a slightly different take on what they did with BB.

It'll just make them get tired of that song and dance she's doing to keep her secret.

If they don't know who she is ahead of time, then they can be shocked, which is the whole point of a twist reveal.

[kvz5]

All I'm saying is that it might not even be a big twist to begin with. There's so much happening in this movie. Not everything will be happening in the 3rd act. There might be bigger twists than this reveal.

[batbax]

It'll just make them get tired of that song and dance she's doing to keep her secret.

If they don't know who she is ahead of time, then they can be shocked, which is the whole point of a twist reveal.

Really, I agree with you. However I
can't say for sure it would be bad. How it's presented would be a
huge determining factor. And as I
said with a talia flashback, in the context of the film this may not even be a big twist bur a minor
one. We have no idea. Then again maybe this is the huge twist if the movie and talias running the show..... Lol

[redfirebird2008]

Yeah I thought Batman was "The World's Greatest Detective"?:o


This version isn't. :(

[slimshady247]

It would be hilarious if he saw it coming.

[TheBatman072]

It would be hilarious if he saw it coming.

That would totally ****ing redeem Nolan using Talia at all for me.

If he says, when she reveals herself to him, "I know" then I swear I would scream right there in the theater "TAKE ME NOW GOD MY BODY IS READY"

Oh god that would be so amazing.

[slimshady247]

That would totally ****ing redeem Nolan using Talia at all for me.

If he says, when she reveals herself to him, "I know" then I swear I would scream right there in the theater "TAKE ME NOW GOD MY BODY IS READY"

Oh god that would be so amazing.
Yeah, I have a feeling Nolan would take that direction if Talia really is trying to infiltrate the company. Bruce would have known the entire time. Except for those rumors about the scene where gets stabbed . Those beg the question of if it really is a large twist, which I sincerely hope it isn't.

[redfirebird2008]

It would be hilarious if he saw it coming.


Now THAT would be awesome. Would be like something straight out of B:TAS where the villain thinks they've got him and then he pulls a rabbit out of the hat (err...cowl). :oldrazz:

[flickchick85]

And what I'm saying is that if the audience knows she's Talia ahead of time, and Bruce doesn't, there's no shock value for the audience.
You're right, there's no shock value, but there's tension. Hitchcock often preferred to keep the audience in the know, at the cost of the revelation, because it effectively created suspense. I see no reason that couldn't work here.

But I agree it would be awesome if they twisted that on its head and had him see it coming.

[TheBatman072]

Yeah, I have a feeling Nolan would take that direction if Talia really is trying to infiltrate the company. Bruce would have known the entire time. Except for those rumors about the scene where gets stabbed . Those beg the question of if it really is a large twist, which I sincerely hope it isn't.

Seriously, you've totes ruined this movie for me now. I'll totes be expecting Batman to know fully well that Tate is talia and for him to get the drop on both her and Bane before she gets lucky and stabs him.

I blame yoooooouuuuu!!!

[TheBatman072]

You're right, there's no shock value, but there's tension. Hitchcock often preferred to keep the audience in the know, at the cost of the revelation, because it effectively created suspense. I see no reason that couldn't work here.

It's been a long while since I've seen it and I've only seen it maybe once or twice(I try not to view the GREAT movie too many times at once) but I'm pretty sure we had no idea about Norman Bates' "condition" in PSYCHO.

[GrimmReaper7]

Yeah, I have a feeling Nolan would take that direction if Talia really is trying to infiltrate the company. Bruce would have known the entire time. Except for those rumors about the scene where gets stabbed . Those beg the question of if it really is a large twist, which I sincerely hope it isn't.

Perhaps she reveals her identity to him thinking she has him off guard and tries to stab him only for Batman to block it by grabbing her knife hand and say "I already knew" then knocks her out :oldrazz:

[flickchick85]

It's been a long while since I've seen it and I've only seen it maybe once or twice(I try not to view the GREAT movie too many times at once) but I'm pretty sure we had no idea about Norman Bates' "condition" in PSYCHO.
That was an exception. He was famous for the technique. Vertigo was a good example: He took the big surprise "twist" ending from the book and instead let the audience in on it early, in order to build suspense over Scottie finding out. "Mystery is seldom suspenseful. The whodunit generates the kind of curiosity that is void of emotion, and emotion is an essential ingredient of suspense.""We are now having a very innocent little chat. Let us suppose that there is a bomb underneath this table between us. Nothing happens, and then all of a sudden, "Boom!" There is an explosion. The public is surprised, but prior to this surprise, it has seen an absolutely ordinary scene, of no special consequence. Now, let us take a suspense situation. The bomb is underneath the table and the audience knows it, probably because they have seen the anarchist place it there. The public is aware that the bomb is going to explode at one o'clock and there is a clock in the decor. The public can see that it is a quarter to one. In these conditions this same innocuous conversation becomes fascinating because the public is participating in the scene. The audience is longing to warn the characters on the screen: "You shouldn't be talking about such trivial matters. There's a bomb beneath you and it's about to explode!"

"In the first case we have given the public fifteen seconds of surprise at the moment of the explosion. In the second we have provided them with fifteen minutes of suspense. The conclusion is that whenever possible the public must be informed." -Alfred Hitchock

I think it's safe to say that Psycho had enough suspense already going for it, that the twist just added that extra punch to the gut, lol.

[TheBatman072]

That was an exception. He was famous for the technique. Vertigo was a good example: He took the big surprise "twist" ending from the book and instead let the audience in on it early, in order to build suspense over Scottie finding out. -Alfred Hitchock

And yet Nolan has a track record of doing just the opposite. Not letting the audience in on the secret until the main character finds it out.

Two different filmmakers with two different filmmaking sensibilities.

If he did it one way once, and there's a chance of him doing something similar again, he's probably going to follow that same pattern.

[kvz5]

It would be hilarious if he saw it coming.

That would be glorious! I will do cartwheels in front of the theater if that happens. :awesome:

"I'm Talia"
"I was wondering when you're going to tell me that."

[RadioSha]

I liked how in Begins, Ra's was both Ra's and Henri Ducard.

In this movie, I think Tate will be both Talia AND Lady Shiva. A combination of both characters

[flickchick85]

And yet Nolan has a track record of doing just the opposite. Not letting the audience in on the secret until the main character finds it out.

Two different filmmakers with two different filmmaking sensibilities.

If he did it one way once, and there's a chance of him doing something similar again, he's probably going to follow that same pattern.
I think we're having two different debates. I didn't say anything about this being the most likely path, I was just arguing that it could be a perfectly valid and effective path to take.

That said, I'd say Memento used the Hitchcock technique quite a bit. Even if we learned about every character retro-actively, we still knew a heck of a lot more about them than Leonard did at any given moment, thanks to their future actions we've already witnessed and Lenny's state of being constantly in the dark. TDK also used that technique by introducing us to the Joker's madness/genius from the very beginning, while Batman was still dismissing him as a small-time threat and going after the mob instead. He also used it in the 3rd act of TDK as we watched Harvey Dent go on a killing spree as Two-Face while Batman and Gordon were completely unawares, still trying to "rescue" him from the Joker. Tension was created in the anticipation of them finding out what's happened to him.

[Infinity9999x]

And yet Nolan has a track record of doing just the opposite. Not letting the audience in on the secret until the main character finds it out.

Two different filmmakers with two different filmmaking sensibilities.

If he did it one way once, and there's a chance of him doing something similar again, he's probably going to follow that same pattern.

Maybe Talia is actually the Red-Herring. And maybe the real twist is that Ra's comes back from the "dead."

And he's Bruce's father.

And Bruce has actually been dreaming for the past two movies.

And Bruce has been a ghost the whole time.

You've been M.Knight Shyamaloned/BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMED!

[psylockolussus]

Marion Cotillard is like one of those good actress in the Hollywood that just doesn't have enough appeal with the public.

[Kansiov]

Marion Cotillard is like one of those good actress in the Hollywood that just doesn't have enough appeal with the public.

Her roles are severely limited due to her inability to pull off a non-French accent, which is a shame really.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Maybe Talia is actually the Red-Herring. And maybe the real twist is that Ra's comes back from the "dead."

And he's Bruce's father.

And Bruce has actually been dreaming for the past two movies.

And Bruce has been a ghost the whole time.

You've been M.Knight Shyamaloned/BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMED!

New bat vehicle is a train...and the passengers are all dead Martha, Thomas, Harvey and Rachel?:awesome:

[DocHoliday]

Myabe tDkR takes place 5-10 years after TDK. Miranda works at Wayne Ent. and is in a long term relationship with Wayne who has retired as Batman. She wouldn't be crushing him just by stealing tech ect. but also maybe giving him one more shot to join LoS.

[Sith Scotti]

If Ras's was Bruce's father , that would be the one thing that I would haver my head explode .

[Sikri06]

And yet Nolan has a track record of doing just the opposite. Not letting the audience in on the secret until the main character finds it out.

Two different filmmakers with two different filmmaking sensibilities.

If he did it one way once, and there's a chance of him doing something similar again, he's probably going to follow that same pattern.

But I don't think that he wants to be a director who repeats himself, all though it is beginning to look like he may will. But I really hope he has been able to come up with something different than what he did in BB.

[Stillsberry]

LOOOVE me some Hitchcock

[HighFivingMF]

That would be glorious! I will do cartwheels in front of the theater if that happens. :awesome:

"I'm Talia"
"I was wondering when you're going to tell me that."

*Batman whips out Talia-repellent spray*