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06-26-2011, 01:40 PM

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is 351967

Yurka

06-26-2011, 01:40 PM

"Cotillard will appear as Miranda Tate, a Wayne Enterprises board member eager to help a still-grieving Bruce Wayne resume his father's philanthropic endeavors for Gotham."

Discuss.

Majik1387

06-26-2011, 01:40 PM

I love how it's the newbies so adamant that Tate is Talia. :huh:

DaveMoral

06-26-2011, 01:42 PM

I love how it's the newbies so adamant that Tate is Talia. :huh:

As if that's at all a relevant measure of the validity of an idea.

Majik1387

06-26-2011, 01:45 PM

Considering the responses I've seen in the other thread, yes, it does.

MiniBond

06-26-2011, 01:45 PM

"Cotillard will appear as Miranda Tate, a Wayne Enterprises board member eager to help a still-grieving Bruce Wayne resume his father's philanthropic endeavors for Gotham."

Discuss.

sounds like an essay at school !:funny:

Mr. Wooden Alligator

06-26-2011, 02:03 PM

*Whiplash*

06-26-2011, 02:09 PM

I don't think she's the 'Biggest Star In The World' but I do like her.

Nothing wrong with Nolan picking someone who he is familiar with for this role.

After all, he's cast JG-L and Hardy too.

TheBatman072

06-26-2011, 02:10 PM

I'm not too big a fan of Tate being Talia. Its been said by others that it'd make Bruce look stupid (being that Ra's already pulled a similar stunt in BB). How exactly would it make Bruce look stupid? He'd have no reason to suspect her of being Talia.

It doesn't make Bruce look stupid. It makes Bruce look incompetent.

Bruce, or Fox for that matter, doesn't just hire somebody because they've got experience for the job. They look DEEP. VERY deep. And are capable of recognizing inconsistencies and dummy companies and aliases.

Take Lau's meeting at Wayne Ent. and Bruce's and Fox's conversation about Lau's dirty dealings after the meeting.

Bruce had already looked into Lau well before the meeting and had sufficient evidence to Lau being dirty.

Bruce spent months to maybe even years with the LoS. He knows their methods, and it stands to reason he can recognize patterns.

Looking into tate's past, he'd be able to spot little things here and there that would make him suspicious. Digging deeper into those things, the picture would become much clearer.

And besides all that, Tate revealing herself to be Talia would suck because it would be almost exactly like Ducard revealing himself to be Ra's. And in order for Tate being Talia to have any story resonance at all, she'd have to be the mastermind behind Bane and Wayne's current troubles. Which would completely invalidate Bane as a villain and as a character. Relegating him to attack dog status.

sly

06-26-2011, 02:17 PM

I believe it was about a week ago, you and I were exchanging some words in the Marion thread about her being Talia. All what you kept saying was something like "I know she's going to be in the movie and I'll shove it in your face when it's confirmed. I will even run around dressed like Talia in the streets and at super market".

And you obviously missed the light hearted jab because everyone on this board is so nerdishly tightly wound.

I just found it laughable because I haven't seen any of these good arguments.

Repost, but...

Joey King WAS in India for filming...

http://www.openbookcastinglive.com/M...9180210796.pdf (page 43/44)

Location: India
Start Date: Late April

[YOUNG GIRL] 10 year old Caucasian girl. She's a strong, tough kid who also
happens to be very articulate and smart...

And check this out from NolanFans.com:

http://www.nolanfans.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5648&start=470#ixzz1QPOuevip

MagnarTheGreat's post (second on the page) under the spoiler tags. He lists all the proof known that Joey King was in India... and the "so far" evidence Tate = Talia.

I'll post this... but he actually has links to everything:

Part I – The Not-So-Distant Past

Variety reported on February 8th, 2010, that Marion Cotillard was in talks to join the film Contagion (principal photography would be underway by October 27th, 2010, and Cotillard was spotted filming in mid-January 2011.) On May 11th, 2010, Variety reported that Colin Farrell and Cotillard were newly attached to the film Cosmopolis and were cast as the roles of husband and wife and were due to start filming in March 2011 (it would actually later begin principal photography on May 23rd, 2011.)

Less than a month after Deadline broke the news of Tom Hardy's casting in The Dark Knight Rises, on November 11th, 2010, Deadline broke the story of “Chris Nolan To Meet Actresses For Batman 3” and that the writer was told “one of the roles is a love interest for Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne, and the other is a villain.” Farrell dropped out of Cosmopolis before January 5th, 2011, and was replaced by Robert Pattinson in the husband role. Sources told The Hollywood Reporter in an article published on January 11th that one of the two female leads for The Dark Knight Rises was Talia al Ghul. In neither Deadline's report nor The Hollywood Reporter's report was Cotillard's name mentioned as testing for either of the two roles.

Warner Brothers announced Anne Hathaway was cast as Selina Kyle on January 19th and that Tom Hardy was cast as Bane. On January 20th, a day after initial reports, a rep for Cotillard confirmed to Entertainment Weekly that she dropped out of filming Cosmopolis, and claimed it was due to scheduling conflicts and not because of her newly-announced pregnancy (Cotillard would give birth on May 19th, making the likely time of conception in August 2010.)

The February 9th Fox Hills Green (The Dark Knight Rises) casting call was looking for a “10 year old Caucasian girl. She's a strong, tough kid who also happens to be very articulate and smart...” and a young man “20s, Caucasian, tall, lanky and strong with dirty blonde hair and strong features...” for the India shoot. The 2nd largest French newspaper, Le Figaro, reported on February 11th that Cotillard closed a deal to be in The Dark Knight Rises; The Hollywood Reporter reported “discussions” three days later with a proposed start time of mid-June and ending in mid-November, but not a confirmation.

Young actress Joey King received a callback scheduled for March 8th for a film—either The Dark Knight Rises, Oz: The Great And Powerful, or an unknown film. King tweeted about secrets she wanted to tell on April 6th; Josh Pence was revealed to be cast as young Ra's al Ghul for flashback scenes two days later by The Hollywood Reporter. On April 9th, King announced she was heading to London at the end of May. (See “Part III – The Studio's Line” for the rest of this time period.)

Part II – India and the United Kingdom

The Times of India reported that the Nolan production crew would start coming into India on May 1st; no actor but Bale was suspected at the time. King tweeted she was leaving the United States on May 2nd to film an undisclosed project. Mehul Gohil of India, snapped Pence's photo there and later repeatedly claimed he and his cohort(s) saw her on set in India on The Dark KnightRises Community on Facebook. On June 3rd, a Nolan Fans forum member (and author of this post) happened upon information putting King and some of her family in India before London by source(s) that know the matter.

Ignoring the Lazarus Pit stuff or not, according to The Times of India, Pence was reported to have gone to the U.K. with Nolan and Bale after the India shoot on May 9th and his whereabouts since are unknown. A May 19th Warner Brothers' press release stated that principal photography had begun on The Dark Knight Rises. Variety broke the initial King casting story on May 20th and King confirmed it on Twitter. It was then that visual connections of King to Cotillard were made, as well as the noticing of King's haircolor change and style since mid-April.

King and her sister tweeted their departure from Los Angeles on May 21st for London Heathrow Airport in the U.K. The Cardington hangers in Bedforshire were revving up for filming before May 18th and May 21st. King gets asked a question on Twitter about the India filming on May 24th and gives no public response. King tweeted that she left the English countryside and headed into London on May 27th and was taking photos and sight-seeing with her older sister Kelli who is there with her. King said she visited Paris, France, on the weekend. After the 29th is radio silence as it is until June 3rd when she posted what appeared to be an old photo (matching her April 19th hairstyle from before filming began and the same shirt) and publiclyacknowledged for the first time she was filming for The Dark Knight Rises. And then radio silence again after that. On June 7th, she tweeted she would have to remove the decorations on her nails for filming on that day.

Part III – The Studio's Line

And in the other corner as opposing evidence, you have Warner Brothers' press releases which mention a Selina Kyle (January 19th) and a Miranda Tate (April 19th) and no Catwoman or Talia. The April 19th press release states “Cotillard will appear as Miranda Tate, a Wayne Enterprises board member eager to help a still-grieving Bruce Wayne resume his father’s philanthropic endeavors for Gotham.” Nolan commented, “When you collaborate with people as talented as Marion and Joe, it comes as no surprise that you would want to repeat the experience. I immediately thought of them for the roles of Miranda and Blake, and I am looking forward to working with both of them again.” Variety felt burned over their March 19th Alberto Falcone for Joseph Gordon-Levitt casting prediction, and one of their writers declared “We're onto you, Chris” and “something batty going on here” in dubious reaction to the April 19th press release.

Part IV – Cotillard's Quotes

In an interview with the Los Angeles Times' 24 Frames posted May 4th, Cotillard stated, "My role is a secret, as is the whole project." She later commented about her involvement with The Dark Knight Rises in a translated interview posted on May 7th with French Madame Figaro, “...it’s a small role and a very comfortable one for a new mother.”

Part V – The Just Plain Weird and Dubious

On August 22nd, 2010, a professed former Warner Brothers intern made a claim to website **************.com: “was apparently told today by someone they met during that time that the actress has been approached by the studio to play either Selina Kyle or Talia al Ghul” and that Cotillard had to turn down the roles due to prior commitments. The original source for this claim has since been erased. [Oh No They Didn't!]

On February 5th, 2011, website Batman-On-Film.com reported “A little birdie with a red breast tells BOF that a THE DARK KNIGHT RISES casting call has gone out for a "European actress."” It has since been deleted from the website. [**************.com]

On May 15th, a “King fan” Twitter account referenced a phone call about King filming a movie. Soon after, the same account said she got a part in a new movie and was then filming in England. King tweeted her intention to visit England on April 9th; Variety did not break the story of King's casting in The Dark Knight Rises until May 20th; King did not report leaving for England until May 21st; and she didn't confirm the trip was for filming the movie until June 3rd.

Part VI – Future

On May 25th, Variety reported Joey King was cast as China Girl in Oz: The Great And Powerful, due to start production in July. On May 31st, Deadline reported Marion Cotillard was cast in Low Life, due to start production in 2012.

My assessment:
Most of us can agree that Joey King looks like Marion Cotillard. Now we know it's pretty well documented that Joey King was filming in India and London... so she obviously is not just playing some kid on the street. When you add in the fact of Ra's appearance in the movie, Talia's "exotic" look in the comics vs Cotillard's look, Bane's connection to Talia in the comics, and the al Ghul name already establishing their ability to use false identities in Nolan's Batman universe, how can you say we're grasping at straws thinking Miranda Tate has at the very least a good chance to reveal herself as Talia?

TheBatman072

06-26-2011, 02:20 PM

Part IV – Cotillard's Quotes

In an interview with the Los Angeles Times' 24 Frames posted May 4th, Cotillard stated, "My role is a secret, as is the whole project." She later commented about her involvement with The Dark Knight Rises in a translated interview posted on May 7th with French Madame Figaro, “...it’s a small role and a very comfortable one for a new mother.”

This is the biggest smoking gun. Right here.

No way is she Talia if she has a "small role." No way. Her revealed to be Talia at some point probably near the climax of the movie would have no impact AT ALL if her role is small.

And yes, she said her role was secret I think BEFORE her roll was announced. Which amounts to diddley sqaut because EVERYBODY'S role is secret in this film. Doesn't mean they're going to be revealed as a villain at some point in the movie.

sly

06-26-2011, 02:24 PM

All what we're doing is explaining why we believe there's no reason to think she will be in the film....

And all we're saying is there *are* reasons, but you keep saying those reasons are "valid" enough because a press release stated Marion Cotillard was playing Miranda Tate and not Talia al Ghul.

That pretty much covers it.

DaveMoral

06-26-2011, 02:27 PM

This is the biggest smoking gun. Right here.

No way is she Talia if she has a "small role." No way. Her revealed to be Talia at some point probably near the climax of the movie would have no impact AT ALL if her role is small.

And yes, she said her role was secret I think BEFORE her roll was announced. Which amounts to diddley sqaut because EVERYBODY'S role is secret in this film. Doesn't mean they're going to be revealed as a villain at some point in the movie.

Personally, I can't help but wonder what "small" even means in this context. Marion isn't exactly a low profile actress, and frankly the role they have announced Miranda Tate as doesn't sound like it can be all that small anyway. We are likely going to see a lot of her being an assistant to Wayne in his philanthropic enterprises. So if that role were "small" in the sense that she's not an overwhelming presence like a Bane will be, but a consistent presence like Lucius Fox(who I would not consider a huge role) and there were some strange problems going on during this philanthropic projects that end up not reflecting on Wayne very well and in the climax she's revealed to be Talia that would have a huge impact. I don't think "small" really rules anything out. I highly doubt she's a one or two scene role. It may just not require her to be far from her baby or absent for many many hours.

Regardless, it seems people haven't ruled out that Miranda Tate could end up being a romantic interest for Bruce... let alone her character just as Miranda Tate and no one being some kind of big influence on Bruce and his decision making for Batman. As I recall that's one of the objections to the Talia speculation, Tate could be just as important in her own right. How does that factor into the "small role" statement? Either way I can't help but think "small role" doesn't mean what some construe it to mean.

lililatigresse

06-26-2011, 03:06 PM

Whether you believe they're strong facts or not, that's your own opinion. But at least their facts are based on SOMETHING.

By the way, I don't know where this dictators stuff is coming from. All what we're doing is explaining why we believe there's no reason to think she will be in the film.... because some people are going as far as verifying that Miranda Tate IS Talia, which is ridiculous. It sounds like you're trying to say that no one's allowed to disagree with you, which sounds quite hypocritical. This is a message board, right? Don't take things so personal....

What intrigues me is the fact that for the filming in India, they wanted 2 caucasian actors: a young man and a young girl. I had the intuition because of the description they gave of him that the young man was suppose to be a young Liam. But weirdly people did not discuss it.
And then we learned that the young man was indeed a young Ra's. So the first thing that comes to my mind is that the young girl is Talia. And I could be wrong but I know it's not a stupid thought.

In my opinion the fact there's a child with a young Ra's, a girl, is enough to speculate on the fact that this girl could be Talia. Why a young Talia if we don't see her as an adult....And there's the fact that the actress look like Marion and those little things... and people keep saying Marion said that her role was small but Liam had a rather small role too and he was still Ra's. And if people want to be literal, she also said her role was a secret.....

I don't take things personal, so I don't see how I could take things "so personal".
My problem is how I feel like some people here refuse us the right to talk about the possibility of Tate being Talia, how it's not interesting or relevant. Who are they to decide what people should talk about, what is interesting and what's not ?
I found some discussions here boring. But I don't keep telling people they should not talk about it because I think they can do whatever they want even if it bores me. That's where the dictator stuff is coming from.

Nevincer

06-26-2011, 03:16 PM

http://images.contactmusic.com/images/reviews/cnolan.jpg

Hey guys... guys!

Billion dollar idea here!

Get this... a villain in the movie...

You with me so far? A villain in the movie, masquerading as... wait for it...

An ALLY to Bruce Wayne!!!

Brilliant right? No one will see it coming.

But that's not all... remember that guy in the first movie who was played by Liam Neeson?

Well turns out, this villain is his daughter! And she wants to avenge her father's death!

Is that cool or what? It brings it full circle! The perfect trilogy!

GrimmReaper7

06-26-2011, 03:30 PM

DoomsdayApex

06-26-2011, 03:58 PM

Hmmm, it's hard to say if Marion's role in this film will truly be 'small' (especially for an Oscar winner), but stranger things have happened. Cotillard has yet to be spotted on the set whereas Hathaway, Bale, Freeman, Oldman and Caine have. Then again, Hardy has only been seen once on set (according to a few unreliable sources).

Anywho, Nolan didn't necessarily give, us the fans, a twist in TDK either, so would should we expect one?.

Tate could end up being Talia... or maybe not. Personally, I could do without Talia al Ghul in the film -- Bane and Catwoman (along with 'Nixon' and a 'Mad' Scientist) already occupy the film's attention.

Majik1387

06-26-2011, 04:02 PM

Don't even try using the Oscar winner excuse.

DoomsdayApex

06-26-2011, 04:12 PM

What excuse? :nono:

Personally, I don't see the point of doing a couple of scenes after having a baby in a summer blockbuster. That's just my opinion though.

Am I saying she will be Talia? No. BUT I do believe her role will have a much bigger impact than we speculate.

GrimmReaper7

06-26-2011, 04:13 PM

DoomsdayApex

06-26-2011, 04:15 PM

Furthermore, Nolan could have gone with someone else but he waited for Marion's response.

Majik1387

06-26-2011, 04:17 PM

Thank you Grimm.

Also keep in mind, Bale hadn't won an Oscar prior to this year, and Oldman still hasn't won one. I'd say they have the more dramatic and larger roles in the series.

Gianakin_

06-26-2011, 04:19 PM

Personally, I don't see the point of doing a couple of scenes after having a baby in a summer blockbuster. That's just my opinion though.

Why not? I realize she's probably gonna be in a handful of scenes, but the movie's still a paycheck, a chance to be in a big franchise, as well as a way to keep in touch with the business.

DoomsdayApex

06-26-2011, 04:19 PM

[QUOTE=DoomsdayApex;20718061]Hmmm, it's hard to say if Marion's role in this film will truly be 'small' (especially for an Oscar winner)QUOTE]

Caine and Freeman are both Oscar winners and they only had about 20 minutes of screen time combined in TDK. Plus Caine was only in one scene in Inception which was like barely 2 minutes...so thats not really a strong argument

Well, Caine did state in an interview that he wasn't going to be an important part of the film (Inception).

And we certainly knew what to expect when Nolan casted Caine as Alfred and Freeman as Fox. Although to be fair, both Caine and Freeman had bigger roles in BB than in TDK.

DoomsdayApex

06-26-2011, 04:21 PM

Why not? I realize she's probably gonna be in a handful of scenes, but the movie's still a paycheck, a chance to be in a big franchise, as well as a way to keep in touch with the business.

True but I would think she would want this time to be with her newborn. Most actresses take an entire year off.

Gianakin_

06-26-2011, 04:22 PM

True but I would think she would want this time to be with her newborn. Most actresses take an entire year off.

There are many things we don't know. Maybe her scenes demand her presence on set to be limited, so that she won't be away from her baby. The kid has a dad, too, you know.:oldrazz:

Infinity9999x

06-26-2011, 04:23 PM

DoomsdayApex

06-26-2011, 04:28 PM

There are many things we don't know. Maybe her scenes demand her presence on set to be limited, so that she won't be away from her baby. The kid has a dad, too, you know.:oldrazz:

Yes, but that doesn't mean Marion longs to be with her child. Most women can't stand being away from their newborns for more than an hour... when they're not crying, of course :oldrazz:

Majik1387

06-26-2011, 04:29 PM

Well, Caine did state in an interview that he wasn't going to be an important part of the film (Inception).

And we certainly knew what to expect when Nolan casted Caine as Alfred and Freeman as Fox. Although to be fair, both Caine and Freeman had bigger roles in BB than in TDK.
So you can believe Caine when he said his role wasn't important, but not that Marion's role is small? Jesus christ. :dry:

Gianakin_

06-26-2011, 04:33 PM

Yes, but that doesn't mean Marion longs to be with her child. Most women can't stand being away from their newborns for more than an hour... when they're not crying, of course :oldrazz:

You mean "doesn't long to be", right?:cwink:

In any case, only she knows how to be a mother to her child, so we're just speculating here.:woot:

Infinity9999x

06-26-2011, 04:34 PM

So you can believe Caine when he said his role wasn't important, but not that Marion's role is small? Jesus christ. :dry:

As I said on the previous page, a small role does not mean an unimportant one.

Plenty of movies have characters with HUGE impacts on the film, yet only have a handful of actual screen time.

Like I said, I don't really think Tate will be Talia, but I don't think the "small part" confirmation gives any headway against the possibility.

The_Raganork

06-26-2011, 06:34 PM

flickchick85

06-26-2011, 06:39 PM

This whole debate is so tedious. Tate may be Talia, and she may not. Nobody here knows definitively which it is yet, so it's silly for anyone to act as if they do.

The_Raganork

06-26-2011, 06:41 PM

This whole debate is so tedious. Tate may be Talia, and she may not. Nobody here knows definitively which it is yet, so it's silly for anyone to act as if they do.

Except that wasn't what we were arguing.

Infinity9999x

06-26-2011, 07:14 PM

I think the revelation of Talia, her relation to Ra's and what that means would necessitate a large role.

Not necessarily but, it's a lot to go through for a small role. I'm going to take it as face value until I have a good reason not to. she hasn't even filmed yet, there's no inclination at all to suspect Talia Al Ghul

In fact it'd be such a corny move I don't think Chris Nolan would pull it again. BB already had one mysterious Al Ghul reveal, why do it again?

Not necessarily. If she's a small supporting character, someone who's in the film about as much as Lucius was in BB, it would be more then enough to establish her. Have her as someone who seems to be a friend, helping Bruce, not a character we pay all that much attention to.

Then throughout the film we have things happening to Batman and Bruce that keeps him wondering how his enemies are getting so close to him, like there's someone on the inside helping him. Get to the climax, and BANG! It's the nice board member that everyone thought was helping Bruce! WHAT A TWIST!!!!

In all seriousness, I think it could be handled in a way that would be done well. I don't really think it's going to happen. Mostly because I'd rather not see a "you killed my father so now I'm going to kill you" plot. I think it'd be more interesting if Ra's actually was back from the dead and Talia was working under her father's orders.

But in that scenario I'd want enough screen time to add a dilemma in the climax for Talia. Show that she's actually grown to like Bruce so the betrayal is hard for her. You could still do that with a small character, but it would be hard.

So yeah, you could certainly have her still be Talia and be a small role. But that doesn't mean I think it's going to happen. I'm just pointing out it certainly COULD happen. Like I've said, there have been tons of small role characters that greatly effected the films they were in.

The_Raganork

06-26-2011, 07:18 PM

Not necessarily. If she's a small supporting character, someone who's in the film about as much as Lucius was in BB, it would be more then enough to establish her. Have her as someone who seems to be a friend, helping Bruce, not a character we pay all that much attention to.

Then throughout the film we have things happening to Batman and Bruce that keeps him wondering how his enemies are getting so close to him, like there's someone on the inside helping him. Get to the climax, and BANG! It's the nice board member that everyone thought was helping Bruce! WHAT A TWIST!!!!

In all seriousness, I think it could be handled in a way that would be done well. I don't really think it's going to happen. Mostly because I'd rather not see a "you killed my father so now I'm going to kill you" plot. I think it'd be more interesting if Ra's actually was back from the dead and Talia was working under her father's orders.

But in that scenario I'd want enough screen time to add a dilemma in the climax for Talia. Show that she's actually grown to like Bruce so the betrayal is hard for her. You could still do that with a small character, but it would be hard.

So yeah, you could certainly have her still be Talia and be a small role. But that doesn't mean I think it's going to happen. I'm just pointing out it certainly COULD happen. Like I've said, there have been tons of small role characters that greatly effected the films they were in.

lol...even in my original post that you quoted I sad: "not necessarily" :oldrazz:

Infinity9999x

06-26-2011, 07:29 PM

lol...even in my original post that you quoted I sad: "not necessarily" :oldrazz:

Yeah, I mean, I don't really expect it to happen either. If Nolan decided to do it, I'm sure he could execute it in an exciting way though.

Honestly, at this point I think all bets are off when it comes to Nolan though. He's done nothing I expected him to. Heck, he's done nothing that anybody expected.

Had you come on here a year ago and told everyone "Hey guys, the villains for TDKR are going to be Catwoman and Bane. Oh, and there are set pictures that makes it look an awfully lot like he might use a Lazarus Pit. Also, we're going to have a flashback sequence with a young Ra's and possibly Liam as well."

People would have called you crazy and promptly ignored everything you said. So honestly, I'm done trying to guess what Nolan will do.

HelloImBen

06-26-2011, 07:32 PM

Because we don't agree with your baseless assumptions we're attacking you?

Just because I have a treasure trove of facts and further assumptions that invalidate your arguments you shouldn't feel attacked.

It's a shame that when someone is proven wrong by a good degree of fact they quickly jump on the defensive. Admit defeat or come at me with something more plausible.

Is it such a terrible notion that I insist you support your claim with worthy sources and reasons?

You've got to prove your way of thinking is valid man, don't expect people to just discuss any nonsense someone comes up with without some good reason to discuss it.

Mind telling us what facts you have that says Talia will not be in this film.

I don't think shes gonna be in it. Just a hunch. But I don't get why people who say shes obviously going to be in it are getting so much heat while people saying theres no way shes in it are getting a free pass.

Both cases are ridiculous. We know absolutely NOTHING about this movie, other than some info on a few cast members. Arguing that she isn't in the movie is just as stupid as arguing that she is in it.

The_Raganork

06-26-2011, 07:33 PM

Yeah, I mean, I don't really expect it to happen either. If Nolan decided to do it, I'm sure he could execute it in an exciting way though.

Honestly, at this point I think all bets are off when it comes to Nolan though. He's done nothing I expected him to. Heck, he's done nothing that anybody expected.

Had you come on here a year ago and told everyone "Hey guys, the villains for TDKR are going to be Catwoman and Bane. Oh, and there are set pictures that makes it look an awfully lot like he might use a Lazarus Pit. Also, we're going to have a flashback sequence with a young Ra's and possibly Liam as well."

People would have called you crazy and promptly ignored everything you said. So honestly, I'm done trying to guess what Nolan will do.

Indeed that's why I hypothesize possible plot points based on the structures of the other films. I don't think I'm writing but, I'm feeling for patterns and likely places to go.

Whether or not people are or aren't who their cast as doesn't hold any merit to me, unless I'm given specific reasons to think so by, photos, plot information or wardrobe selections

flickchick85

06-26-2011, 07:38 PM

Except that wasn't what we were arguing.
My mistake. There were several comments in previous pages that gave me that impression, including these:

I also think some people here act like dictators telling us how we should not speculate about the possibility of Tate being Talia.
No way is she Talia if she has a "small role." No way.
Because we don't agree with your baseless assumptions we're attacking you?

Just because I have a treasure trove of facts and further assumptions that invalidate your arguments you shouldn't feel attacked.

I think it should be pointed out that there are plenty of "bases" for people to suspect Talia, whether they ultimately pan out or not.

-Late August 2010 (before ANY female characters were confirmed for TDKR) - it was first reported that there were in fact two female characters in TDKR, that they were Catwoman and Talia, and that Chris Nolan had offered Marion Cotillard her pick of either, but that she had to turn them down for the time being due to "possible" scheduling conflicts. Variety also later stated that their sources suspected the two female leads and Talia as well, and Deadline later confirmed the two female leads, stating one was a love interest, and one was a villain.

October 2010 - the trades report that Nolan entered the screen testing phase for, you guessed it, TWO female leads.

-January 2011 - it's revealed that Marion Cotillard is several months pregnant, due in May. Suddenly the "possible scheduling conflicts" report in late August sounds plausible.

-January 2011 - It's announced that Catwoman is a character in TDKR, but that there's still another female lead to be cast. And that's the last we hear of the "two female leads."

-February 2011 - Marion Cotillard joins the cast, claiming a secret "small role," later to be announced as Miranda Tate.

-April 2011 - The Hollywood Reporter claims that Josh Pence will be playing a young Ra's Al Ghul in scenes set 30 years in the past....right around the time Talia would be a little girl (assuming she's the same age as Bale/Cotillard)....

-May 2011 - 10-year-old Joey King is cast in TDKR, and she just happens to bear resemblance to Marion Cotillard.

-Nolan has a history of worldplay with his character a names. Cotillard is French. The French spelling of Tate would be "Téte," which = "Head" = "Ra's" = Talia's alias in the comics.

-When I did a Wiki search for "Miranda Tate" on the day she was announced, I didn't get any direct results, but one of the top results was a DC Comics directory featuring the name "Talia Tate," which I couldn't find any more info on.

Now sure, these could all be coincidences. But string a bunch of coincidences together, and they kinda start to look like evidence. In the eyes of the law, I believe they'd call it "circumstantial evidence," but evidence, nonetheless. I'm not saying Tate is Talia. In fact, I still think there's a VERY strong possibility that she isn't. But those suspicions that she could be are FAR from "baseless."

The_Raganork

06-26-2011, 07:42 PM

I won't argue against those points again, just look back the last incarnation of the thread. They're all nice but, few of them lend to any direction to Tate begin Talia

HOWEVER this new Talia Tate info is interesting and I grant it to that cause.

But again I was never saying that Miranda CAN'T be Talia rather than any such assumption based on news we had were premature and reason would dictate that since they didn't lead to that conclusion people should find new arguments or accept their reasonings as flawed at the very least.

Tate could be Talia but if she is, the reasons given previously will not be validated be that.

DaveMoral

06-26-2011, 07:50 PM

kvz5

06-26-2011, 07:58 PM

The_Raganork

06-26-2011, 07:59 PM

^The problem is you're arguing as if everyone that suggests Talia and Tate are one and the same are saying it's a fact. They aren't, they are speculating based on numerous points that they've found a pattern in. There's ample enough evidence of the al-Ghul's being involved in this film that it does not make such speculation unreasonable.

Your entire argument has essentially been, don't speculate on that unless it's spelled out for you. Which is facetious at best.

No.

My argument is speculating and laying your hand on a side that has no evidence is silly.

If you think Talia is Tate, that's fine. But don't make up excuses why; just say: "it would be cool and I can see it working in the film"

That's totally cool.

But when you start grasping at straws and using rumors as fact and telling me: "Ra's is in it!" it seems silly. That's not even a close reason to think Talia is Tate.

If you plotted out a storyline that is consistent with the films and then included Talia in it, you'd have some good reasons there.

But the reasons like: Joey King looks like Marion so she's possibly playing a younger marion...so a younger marion is Talia...come on.

she could be Tate's daughter...or unrelated.

Give me something with some meat; I can't be expected to understand or even entertain an idea based on such weak premises.

I could write an Essay on how this movie may go and how Talia would propel the current story forward based on accurate proof from the previous films.

And I could write one adversely. but either way I'd be using proof from the films and the news

Not rumors and assumptions from the casting and locations because honestly, those could be anything

Infinity9999x

06-26-2011, 08:02 PM

I would prefer that Miranda Tate is just Miranda because her role actually sounds significant enough without her also being Talia. Yes, the role might be small but it also sounds significant to me. Also, I feel that if she's Talia then it's a "been there, done that" scenario and like what was discussed before, Bruce would look like an idiot if he is fooled with an almost exact same ploy with a father/daughter no less.

However, there's quite a lot of significant evidence/coincidence floating around that supports her character also being Talia. If that does end up being the case then I just hope that they do it with justice and they don't do it just because it's a "twist". I also hate the idea of her being this mastermind that has Bane as her muscleman and lover so i hope that's not the case. Maybe it'll be a Vesper Lynd type of character. Who knows...

I don't necessarily think it makes him an idiot. I mean, let's examine this here. If she is Talia, then that means she's likely been trained by a master in deception most of her life (Ra's). She has the full resources of the LOS behind her to get her perfect forged documents to secure her a position in Wayne Enterprises. And as far as Bruce knows, Ra's daughter is dead. Not to mention he thinks any connection to Ra's is finished, since Ra's is dead, and he'll probably be a little distracted what with the entire GCPD after him and Bane on his tail.

Majik1387

06-26-2011, 08:12 PM

TheBatman072

06-26-2011, 08:13 PM

flickchick85

06-26-2011, 08:21 PM

I would prefer that Miranda Tate is just Miranda because her role actually sounds significant enough without her also being Talia. Yes, the role might be small but it also sounds significant to me....

However, there's quite a lot of significant evidence/coincidence floating around that supports her character also being Talia. If that does end up being the case then I just hope that they do it with justice and they don't do it just because it's a "twist".
I refuse to believe that Bruce, Alfred, Fox, and Gordon are the only Gothamites with a good heart that want a better Gotham.
These are my feelings exactly. My dream scenario here is that Miranda Tate is her own character, and an awesome one at that. It would be refreshing if we got a Dr. Leslie Thompkins type, someone who's not playing any kind of political games or "scheming" (as the Joker put it) to take down the mob, just an altruist trying to look out for those in need.

The_Raganork

06-26-2011, 08:23 PM

Mind telling us what facts you have that says Talia will not be in this film.

I don't think shes gonna be in it. Just a hunch. But I don't get why people who say shes obviously going to be in it are getting so much heat while people saying theres no way shes in it are getting a free pass.

Both cases are ridiculous. We know absolutely NOTHING about this movie, other than some info on a few cast members. Arguing that she isn't in the movie is just as stupid as arguing that she is in it.

Go read what I said again. I never said Talia is not in the film.

Stop trying to make points and pay attention the actual post in this thread

TheBatman072

06-26-2011, 08:35 PM

You know what's interesting about the whole "we know NOTHING about this film" thing? It's absolutely true.

You know what's interesting about it being true? It means that all those trades back a few months ago? Reporting on the whole "one love interest/one villain" thing?

Probably total ********.

Just like JGL being Alberto Falcone was total ******** and THAT, from what I recall, was reported as fact. I remember it because it REALLY bummed me out. Turns out? John Blake. Semi-original character.

DaveMoral

06-27-2011, 07:03 AM

No.

My argument is speculating and laying your hand on a side that has no evidence is silly.

If you think Talia is Tate, that's fine. But don't make up excuses why; just say: "it would be cool and I can see it working in the film"

That's totally cool.

But when you start grasping at straws and using rumors as fact and telling me: "Ra's is in it!" it seems silly. That's not even a close reason to think Talia is Tate.

If you plotted out a storyline that is consistent with the films and then included Talia in it, you'd have some good reasons there.

But the reasons like: Joey King looks like Marion so she's possibly playing a younger marion...so a younger marion is Talia...come on.

she could be Tate's daughter...or unrelated.

Give me something with some meat; I can't be expected to understand or even entertain an idea based on such weak premises.

I could write an Essay on how this movie may go and how Talia would propel the current story forward based on accurate proof from the previous films.

And I could write one adversely. but either way I'd be using proof from the films and the news

Not rumors and assumptions from the casting and locations because honestly, those could be anything

What's silly is that you've misconstrued everything anyone has said.

At this stage the argument that someone believing there's enough circumstantial evidence to warrant speculation on the possibility of Talia being the film, and Miranda Tate being Talia is possible is ludicrous and not based on "accurate proof" is as asinine as damn near anything else you've come up with. And frankly, such speculation is better IMO than just pointlessly posting in a thread with nothing to say because you've got no news from which you can derive any ideas beyond a single confirmation of Cotilliard's casting as Miranda Tate.

And, frankly, grasping at straws is not looking at the entirety of what we do know about the movie and speculating from there. Your choice, thus far, has been to say "we know this about this character" and have tunnel vision with that. When anyone points you to other characters involved, and yes rumors have to count for something at this point if for nothing else than to say it's possible not that it's fact, you simply dismiss it as "that could be anything." Sure, it could be anything and the involvement of all these different characters could just be that, or it could indeed be that Talia is in the mix and a surprise reveal character.

And, frankly, you have been given ideas for how the film could proceed were Talia involved. All taking into account the previous films as well as the source material much of their content has been drawn from. In this case, that includes how Ra's, the League, Bane and Talia have all been connected. What Talia's been known to do for her father and his schemes, and that she has been known to use aliases and infiltrate Batman's circle of trust.

And again I say, if you're so hell bent on stamping out this kind of speculation because you deem it baseless, why aren't you speculating about Miranda Tate based upon what little information you do have about the character and accept as the only thing worthy of use? Seems to me your only involvement in this thread has morphed into just slagging off on people who choose to see a larger picture in which they see signs for a possible Talia involvement rather than doing your own speculating about Miranda Tate.

The_Raganork

06-27-2011, 07:34 AM

What's silly is that you've misconstrued everything anyone has said.

At this stage the argument that someone believing there's enough circumstantial evidence to warrant speculation on the possibility of Talia being the film, and Miranda Tate being Talia is possible is ludicrous and not based on "accurate proof" is as asinine as damn near anything else you've come up with. And frankly, such speculation is better IMO than just pointlessly posting in a thread with nothing to say because you've got no news from which you can derive any ideas beyond a single confirmation of Cotilliard's casting as Miranda Tate.

Ok...

attacking other threads and my way of thinking doesn't prove your point any...

And, frankly, grasping at straws is not looking at the entirety of what we do know about the movie and speculating from there. Your choice, thus far, has been to say "we know this about this character" and have tunnel vision with that. When anyone points you to other characters involved, and yes rumors have to count for something at this point if for nothing else than to say it's possible not that it's fact, you simply dismiss it as "that could be anything." Sure, it could be anything and the involvement of all these different characters could just be that, or it could indeed be that Talia is in the mix and a surprise reveal character.

Again, I never said it wasn't but, for the sake of not debating the, literally, hundreds of options it could be I ask for some reasonable reason to pick Talia over those other options.

If you're going to speculate on what's possible then we ought to go the distance and do that. So let's debate Tate being Vikki, Pamela, Diana, ect,or just narrow down with some good solid why Talia.

And, frankly, you have been given ideas for how the film could proceed were Talia involved. All taking into account the previous films as well as the source material much of their content has been drawn from. In this case, that includes how Ra's, the League, Bane and Talia have all been connected. What Talia's been known to do for her father and his schemes, and that she has been known to use aliases and infiltrate Batman's circle of trust.

No I've been given speculation on speculation.

Ideally I'd like you to use this brain power you have to deliciously string insults and argue the same point over and over again to work out a good story with Talia involved that resembles a Nolan-esque story. We can pick that apart over and over again until we have a practical. smart, creative way to fit in Talia

And then I'll be sold!

This whole confirmation by association is silly, so far none of the films have followed it, why now?

And again I say, if you're so hell bent on stamping out this kind of speculation because you deem it baseless, why aren't you speculating about Miranda Tate based upon what little information you do have about the character and accept as the only thing worthy of use? Seems to me your only involvement in this thread has morphed into just slagging off on people who choose to see a larger picture in which they see signs for a possible Talia involvement rather than doing your own speculating about Miranda Tate.

Well, you should really read things before going into rants about what I do here. Cycle around the threads and you'll see I've given post, albeit long, about how the elements of Bb and TDK will help influence this film and the likely direction a story can go for TDKR; this has both included the inclusion and exclusion of Talia Al Ghul.

Futhermore they've never been based on Ra's being the film but, solely on what's happened in BB, TDK and Tate's character description. What bothers me most is that the majority of Talia lovers are quick to throw out her brief character bio for the singular purpose of wanting a twist in the story. You can't sacrifice story for shock.

If she is Talia, good but, she's still going to have some Miranda Tate involved, include this in your explanation.

Finally, I've never once said anyone shouldn't/couldn't speculate on Talia al Ghul, I just gave you counter points to your theory, as a person who thinks, I think that's a good thing. If I say something that has a counter point that can easily refute it, then I expect to be challenged to come up with a new plan of attack.

This entire time, I've challenged the lot of you to come up with some other argument that baseless speculating to flush out your ideas. Use the comics as a baseline; use the films as a jumping point and be creative with the story you have. Instead of trying to go deeper with you arguments, you've turned around and claim I'm attacking you and am an elitist and all this crap. You've run to the defensive when your opinion is asked to be validated. Why?

You think I give two rat's tails about what you think? I want to know what you know! I want to be sold, I don't take people's words for granted, I've got plenty of time to listen to a well thought out argument that involves the many aspects of these characters, these films and Nolan's way of making them.

Try a little harder; I've already done a huge "why Talia could be tate" post and how that might fit in to the film but, you have to remember if she is in this film she's in it with other people besides Bruce Wayne.

So come up with a likely place she can fit in with the WHOLE story, not just a comfortable segmented piece you've crafted for the argument.

DaveMoral

06-27-2011, 11:19 AM

Ok...

attacking other threads and my way of thinking doesn't prove your point any...

Again, I never said it wasn't but, for the sake of not debating the, literally, hundreds of options it could be I ask for some reasonable reason to pick Talia over those other options.

If you're going to speculate on what's possible then we ought to go the distance and do that. So let's debate Tate being Vikki, Pamela, Diana, ect,or just narrow down with some good solid why Talia.

No I've been given speculation on speculation.

Ideally I'd like you to use this brain power you have to deliciously string insults and argue the same point over and over again to work out a good story with Talia involved that resembles a Nolan-esque story. We can pick that apart over and over again until we have a practical. smart, creative way to fit in Talia

And then I'll be sold!

This whole confirmation by association is silly, so far none of the films have followed it, why now?

Well, you should really read things before going into rants about what I do here. Cycle around the threads and you'll see I've given post, albeit long, about how the elements of Bb and TDK will help influence this film and the likely direction a story can go for TDKR; this has both included the inclusion and exclusion of Talia Al Ghul.

Futhermore they've never been based on Ra's being the film but, solely on what's happened in BB, TDK and Tate's character description. What bothers me most is that the majority of Talia lovers are quick to throw out her brief character bio for the singular purpose of wanting a twist in the story. You can't sacrifice story for shock.

If she is Talia, good but, she's still going to have some Miranda Tate involved, include this in your explanation.

Finally, I've never once said anyone shouldn't/couldn't speculate on Talia al Ghul, I just gave you counter points to your theory, as a person who thinks, I think that's a good thing. If I say something that has a counter point that can easily refute it, then I expect to be challenged to come up with a new plan of attack.

This entire time, I've challenged the lot of you to come up with some other argument that baseless speculating to flush out your ideas. Use the comics as a baseline; use the films as a jumping point and be creative with the story you have. Instead of trying to go deeper with you arguments, you've turned around and claim I'm attacking you and am an elitist and all this crap. You've run to the defensive when your opinion is asked to be validated. Why?

You think I give two rat's tails about what you think? I want to know what you know! I want to be sold, I don't take people's words for granted, I've got plenty of time to listen to a well thought out argument that involves the many aspects of these characters, these films and Nolan's way of making them.

Try a little harder; I've already done a huge "why Talia could be tate" post and how that might fit in to the film but, you have to remember if she is in this film she's in it with other people besides Bruce Wayne.

So come up with a likely place she can fit in with the WHOLE story, not just a comfortable segmented piece you've crafted for the argument.

:whatever:

I think the point of pulling together various aspects of character involvement in order to draw out the possibility that Talia could be involved and that Tate could potentially end up being revealed as her acknowledges inherently that she'd be in it with people besides Bruce Wayne.

You don't even know what my argument is and you're creating a strawman in an attempt to discredit me simply because I'm opposing your, yes, attacks on other posters and your attempt to tell the what not talk about and what is and is not a valid springboard for speculation. It's laughable at best that you've claimed you've offered counterpoints, you haven't. Particularly when you attempt to equivocate the left field suggestions of Vicki Vale, Batgirl, Diana Prince or anyone else besides Talia with the suggestions that Tate could potentially turn out to be Talia. Those are possibilities are ridiculous primarily because they have little to do with whatever story ideas anyone has ever pitched with Talia involved.

I was pitching ideas involving Talia long before Cotilliard was confirmed for a role in this film at all. All of them in connection with the League of Shadows(which was frowned upon by so many, and yet it would appear there's at least some kind of League connection now doesn't it?) and derived from Talia's association with her father's organization and Bane in the comics.

I wouldn't suggest her just for the sake of a twist, and admittedly the only reason I would think there's a potential for Miranda Tate to be revealed as Talia is because Nolan has done that before and it's not out of character for Talia, nor is it a stretch for the League of Shadows, an organization that has allegedly been infiltrating societies for at least 2,000 years, would be thorough enough to come up with such a deep cover for Talia that Wayne and Fox would be very hard pressed to find her suspicious in hiring her. More over, since Tate is in position to help Wayne with his philanthropic efforts she'd also be in a position to sabotage said efforts in order to discredit him. She and Bane, I wouldn't be keen on them being lovers personally, take a two pronged attack on Wayne. They covertly sabotage him public face via Talia's infiltration of his organization and efforts to make Gotham a better place, while Bane is making Batman look worse in the public eye than he does at the conclusion of TDK.

Either Bane acts as a vigilante trying to bust Batman, all the while he's an agent of the LOS or at least a disciple of Ra's. I'm not even banking on Neeson reprising his role as Ra's in the present day story of the film, I see no reason he couldn't just be a flashback to an older Ra's if he is in the film at all(though I do think it would be pretty cool if they did bring Ra's back and had a Lazarus Pit).

Without any mention of the League of Shadows in TDK, I suspect that Bruce is under the mistaken impression that they are done anyway. With the loss of Ra's, and possibly every operative he had in Gotham arrested, he's no longer vigilant about the LOS. Heck, there's precedent for that because he knew that Ra's was planning on taking down Gotham when he blew up their mountain fortress and believed only Ducard to be alive after the fact. It was a total shock to him when they showed up at his birthday party. In both cases he looks stupid, but this Batman is not the uber-prepared super detective of the comics anyway. He's still very much new to the job and a rookie. He hasn't even done much detectiving, for that matter.

No doubt, Miranda Tate could just be Miranda Tate. Wayne Enterprises exec and just working to revive the Wayne family philanthropy. Which is fine. That project is just as important as Bruce's nighttime crusade against crime.

But if Tate were to be Talia infiltrating Wayne's work in order to discredit and destroy him, it's not just about Bruce or "you killed my father." Not if she's depicted as Talia has often been, being a full believer in the cause of Ra's al-Ghul. Her goal is to destroy Wayne and destroy Batman because those are the only things keeping Gotham from imploding on itself and Gotham seems to be such a hub of corruption in the world that the League of Shadows and Ra's had a vested interest in its destruction/cleansing. Without Ra's, I see Talia as the brains behind the operation. With Ra's, I see her as doing what her father has ordered her to do.

They wouldn't even need to make her romantically interested in Bruce if they wanted her to end up expressing her doubts about her father's plan for Gotham either. She could just be won over to his passion for saving Gotham and balking at the prospect of causing so much death and destruction. Because that is the endgame for the League.

I don't think such a role in the film would require anything taxing for Marion, either. There wouldn't be a need for her to do stunts or anything of that sort.

I apologize for not putting Catwoman/Selina Kyle in there, as I'm not sure how she's going to fit into the grand scheme in the first place. Between Bane, references at least to Ra's, some slim chance that Ra's could somehow still be alive, some kind of LOS connection surely... I can't for the life of me figure out how Catwoman would fit in.

The_Raganork

06-27-2011, 11:44 AM

Visceral

06-27-2011, 12:22 PM

Marion is pregnant with damian.

call me christian bale. I get to do the sex scene with her:oldrazz:

DaveMoral

06-27-2011, 01:22 PM

Tada!

this is much better than anything I've seen you post thus far.

It's FAR more plausible than your other examples; I don't agree with it but, this has some merit because you've constructed a story here that's coherent.

Edit: And as well, Everyone knows I'm not a fan of Bane being a LoS agent. In the general discussion thread I quoted my view on Ra's in this film and what it could mean, I'll probably post it here because a lot of people insist Ra's and Talia have to work together in this film one way or another.

Thus far I haven't posted anything other than to defend someone's right to speculate about Talia. You just haven't liked that I've done that.

I don't really see how Bane fits the bill if not connected with the LOS. Wasn't there a photo of a bald kick coming out of that green screened hole in the ground?

I just doubt Bane's origin is going to be completely seperate from the LOS, because I have a hard time seeing the relevance of a young Ra's appearing. Outside of Talia appearing, I'm doubtful that Bane doesn't have some connection with him and the LOS.

I don't think Talia would be in the film at all if she didn't work with Ra's or for his cause. Otherwise, what would be the point? And since I suspect that Bruce is going to finally realize that this Batman thing has to keep going on and on for probably the rest of his life and beyond, having Talia and Bane represent Ra's al-Ghul's contingency plans and legacy in the LOS could spark Bruce's own contemplation of what his legacy is going to be.

The_Raganork

06-27-2011, 01:30 PM

I can't really believe you're going on about this. I've said a million times, I don't care if you think Talia's in it, just give me good reasons so we can have a discussion, not just assumptions based on assumptions

Go to the Ra's thread if you want to speculate on Ra's which I've done A LOT.

Long Story short, Ra's is a Bruce related character in these movies, comics be damned, in BB he was related to Bruce and there's no reason to suspect he won't be related to Bruce again. His impact on Bruce was phenomenal.

there was no confirmation of a kid coming out a well.

Your line of thought confuses me, you can believe that Talia is Tate but, not Bane being separated from the LoS?

I don't think these movies are going to hang on the Al Ghul's really, they haven't yet. We've had one but, not in the context of a legacy, he was Bruce teacher and mentor. (I call Ra's Bruce second father. Thomas gave him virtue, Ra's gave him the means to fight injustice)

To have this be a Batman vs. LoS film again is just doing what they did in BB. It's territory already done.

Here's my Al Ghul thing:

Orginally Posted By Raganork8
Did we not all see BB, Ra's is THE character that defines Bruce in the present time. He made Bruce into the man he is.

I said this before he is like Bruce's second father and I have a great belief this film is going to be about which Father Bruce is going to decide to be the son of.

The Man who gave him virtuosity or

The Man who gave him the means to fight injustice?

So it's no surprise to me that a film that features a character who is going to try to convince Bruce to be more philanthropic like his father (Tate) also would include the character who saw Bruce's father as someone weak and urged Bruce to do everything that was necessary to go the distance that his father didn't.

Because a few comics feature Bane and Ra's in the same storyline doesn't mean there isn't another option to have a character that is (so far) STRICTLY a Bruce character be about Bruce.

I'm not saying that he won't have anything to do with Bane, or that he won't have a lot to do with Bane but, this assumption that it can be nothing else always shocks me as Batman Begins is so STRONG in it's implications of Bruce's parts and then Bruce's training.

The Dark Knight Rises

What does that mean? Bruce has run from his League of Shadows heritage because of the fear toxin disaster and TDK showed us (by not showing us) That his parents murder's have taken a side bar to his having to use Wayne tech to make Batman stronger, faster, smarter.

He has to marry those ideas; he has to bring back his Parent's death to continue with his virtue and confront his issue with Ra's and the league of Shadows to remember why he joined them in the first place, what they taught him directly and what they taught him via his confrontation with them.
Quote:
something I've always explored while watching these films is that at the end of BB Batman says: "I'm not going to kill you...but I don't have to save you"

This is very indicative of the LoS training; it's something I can see Ra's saying; in fact he has a similar line:

You burned my house and left me for dead, consider us even"
What if Ra's was alive during TDK; what would he think of Batman's place in Gotham? Isn't this kind of what he wanted? Batman became gotham's biggest hope and it all comes crashing down, the one person who can protect them is in their crosshairs, if he's destroyed by the people of Gotham then that's it.

"When the Chips are down These Civilized people, will eat each other"
Or eat him? Turning on Batman IS turning on Gotham, surely they don't have a choice given the information they have but:

"sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded"
Shouldn't Bruce/Bat's faith in his city be rewarded? and if it isn't; isn't this Ra's ultimate win?

Now how does that fit in with Young Ra's?

Seeing some of Ra's motives, some of who he was to become the man we know in BB might serve as some insight to who Batman is becoming, a parallel story of sorts.

I don't consider Ra's evil; he's willing to do things for the "greater good" that many people wouldn't; in certain situations, this may make him the hero. He gave Bruce purpose, a new life, turned him from a mourning child to a powerful man.

Exploring briefly what makes Ra's the way he was, what made the man who taught Bruce how to fight crime, might show us more clearly where Batman is failing and what he can do to "Rise"

If we know more about the creator we may learn more about the creation and if Batman can avoid the same falls that turned Ra's Al Ghul into the leader of a group of assassins then maybe he can become something more.

His goal in BB was to become a Symbol, infinite, eternal, incorruptible.

He failed at this, the vision of Batman is tarnished; so maybe its time to look back at the ideals that made Batman in the first place to help him heal those wounds and become the Batman he intended to be.
Quote:
Ra's motives can be clear, how he goes about things still stays mysterious. I agree his mysteriousness should be kept because that's the appeal of the character.

Young Ra's doesn't need to be a huge thing and If I were doing the film I'd fragment it throughout how long the film is.

What we're exploring are ideas from Young Ra's and Ideals he may have held at some point and then watching the mainstory and seeing where they fit in with each other.

It won't be an origins story at all, it'll be a perfectly integrated mirrored story. While the main story is bombastic and action packed, we have these flashbacks that are calmer showing us the creator of Batman, and by watching this in conjunction with our current Batman we can see what Batman is doing right and what he's doing wrong.

since I used the Father Analogy before, think of it as similar to the scenes with Thomas in BB, they were very quick but, they held a lot of meat. As contrast this film can do the same with Ra's.

By watching both we're forced to examine Batman's actions in comparison with Ra's and how Batman is like Ra's Al Ghul ultimately, something he very much wanted to avoid in BB.

In BB Ra's explained he tried to destroy Gotham through despair via the economy

In TDK Batman tried to save Gotham through hope Via politics by LYING about Harvey's involvement.

They may be trying to achieve two different things but, are these not two sides of the same coin?

Yes; in a previous post I mentioned that I think this movie will be the battle of the son.

which Father will Bruce/Bat choose?

The one who gave him virtuosity or the one who gave him the means to fight injustice.

Is Batman Bruce Wayne's alternate Identity? or is Bruce Wayne Batman's Alternate Identity?

Rachel said it perfect in BB

This is your mask
He has to rectify that.

DaveMoral

06-27-2011, 01:47 PM

I can't really believe you're going on about this. I've said a million times, I don't care if you think Talia's in it, just give me good reasons so we can have a discussion, not just assumptions based on assumptions

Go to the Ra's thread if you want to speculate on Ra's which I've done A LOT.

Long Story short, Ra's is a Bruce related character in these movies, comics be damned, in BB he was related to Bruce and there's no reason to suspect he won't be related to Bruce again. His impact on Bruce was phenomenal.

there was no confirmation of a kid coming out a well.

Your line of thought confuses me, you can believe that Talia is Tate but, not Bane being separated from the LoS?

I don't think these movies are going to hang on the Al Ghul's really, they haven't yet. We've had one but, not in the context of a legacy, he was Bruce teacher and mentor. (I call Ra's Bruce second father. Thomas gave him virtue, Ra's gave him the means to fight injustice)

To have this be a Batman vs. LoS film again is just doing what they did in BB. It's territory already done.

Here's my Al Ghul thing:

Orginally Posted By Raganork8
Did we not all see BB, Ra's is THE character that defines Bruce in the present time. He made Bruce into the man he is.

I said this before he is like Bruce's second father and I have a great belief this film is going to be about which Father Bruce is going to decide to be the son of.

The Man who gave him virtuosity or

The Man who gave him the means to fight injustice?

So it's no surprise to me that a film that features a character who is going to try to convince Bruce to be more philanthropic like his father (Tate) also would include the character who saw Bruce's father as someone weak and urged Bruce to do everything that was necessary to go the distance that his father didn't.

Because a few comics feature Bane and Ra's in the same storyline doesn't mean there isn't another option to have a character that is (so far) STRICTLY a Bruce character be about Bruce.

I'm not saying that he won't have anything to do with Bane, or that he won't have a lot to do with Bane but, this assumption that it can be nothing else always shocks me as Batman Begins is so STRONG in it's implications of Bruce's parts and then Bruce's training.

The Dark Knight Rises

What does that mean? Bruce has run from his League of Shadows heritage because of the fear toxin disaster and TDK showed us (by not showing us) That his parents murder's have taken a side bar to his having to use Wayne tech to make Batman stronger, faster, smarter.

He has to marry those ideas; he has to bring back his Parent's death to continue with his virtue and confront his issue with Ra's and the league of Shadows to remember why he joined them in the first place, what they taught him directly and what they taught him via his confrontation with them.
Quote:
something I've always explored while watching these films is that at the end of BB Batman says: "I'm not going to kill you...but I don't have to save you"

This is very indicative of the LoS training; it's something I can see Ra's saying; in fact he has a similar line:

What if Ra's was alive during TDK; what would he think of Batman's place in Gotham? Isn't this kind of what he wanted? Batman became gotham's biggest hope and it all comes crashing down, the one person who can protect them is in their crosshairs, if he's destroyed by the people of Gotham then that's it.

Or eat him? Turning on Batman IS turning on Gotham, surely they don't have a choice given the information they have but:

Shouldn't Bruce/Bat's faith in his city be rewarded? and if it isn't; isn't this Ra's ultimate win?

Now how does that fit in with Young Ra's?

Seeing some of Ra's motives, some of who he was to become the man we know in BB might serve as some insight to who Batman is becoming, a parallel story of sorts.

I don't consider Ra's evil; he's willing to do things for the "greater good" that many people wouldn't; in certain situations, this may make him the hero. He gave Bruce purpose, a new life, turned him from a mourning child to a powerful man.

Exploring briefly what makes Ra's the way he was, what made the man who taught Bruce how to fight crime, might show us more clearly where Batman is failing and what he can do to "Rise"

If we know more about the creator we may learn more about the creation and if Batman can avoid the same falls that turned Ra's Al Ghul into the leader of a group of assassins then maybe he can become something more.

His goal in BB was to become a Symbol, infinite, eternal, incorruptible.

He failed at this, the vision of Batman is tarnished; so maybe its time to look back at the ideals that made Batman in the first place to help him heal those wounds and become the Batman he intended to be.
Quote:
Ra's motives can be clear, how he goes about things still stays mysterious. I agree his mysteriousness should be kept because that's the appeal of the character.

Young Ra's doesn't need to be a huge thing and If I were doing the film I'd fragment it throughout how long the film is.

What we're exploring are ideas from Young Ra's and Ideals he may have held at some point and then watching the mainstory and seeing where they fit in with each other.

It won't be an origins story at all, it'll be a perfectly integrated mirrored story. While the main story is bombastic and action packed, we have these flashbacks that are calmer showing us the creator of Batman, and by watching this in conjunction with our current Batman we can see what Batman is doing right and what he's doing wrong.

since I used the Father Analogy before, think of it as similar to the scenes with Thomas in BB, they were very quick but, they held a lot of meat. As contrast this film can do the same with Ra's.

By watching both we're forced to examine Batman's actions in comparison with Ra's and how Batman is like Ra's Al Ghul ultimately, something he very much wanted to avoid in BB.

In BB Ra's explained he tried to destroy Gotham through despair via the economy

In TDK Batman tried to save Gotham through hope Via politics by LYING about Harvey's involvement.

They may be trying to achieve two different things but, are these not two sides of the same coin?

Yes; in a previous post I mentioned that I think this movie will be the battle of the son.

which Father will Bruce/Bat choose?

The one who gave him virtuosity or the one who gave him the means to fight injustice.

Is Batman Bruce Wayne's alternate Identity? or is Bruce Wayne Batman's Alternate Identity?

Rachel said it perfect in BB

He has to rectify that.

I have a hard time seeing Bane in isolation from the League because of Nolan's desire to bring the circle around. And it strikes me that for him Ra's and the League are sort of Batman's ultimate foes. Which, in terms of the scale of their evil-doings in the comics, they really are. Joker is the more iconic rogue, but no one challenges Batman so completely as Ra's al-Ghul. While Bane's origin is separate in the comics I have a feeling they are tied in the film.

And I also don't see Talia in isolation to that at all. If she was going to be there, it's going to be in a capacity related to the League whether Ra's is present or not. Which begs the question of how flashbacks to a younger Ra's are going to be able to exist at all. Either through Talia or Bane would be my guess. Short of gallivanting all over the world again to hunt down anyone who might know Ra's, those options seem to work the best. Nolan's certainly not immune to showing a parallel story that has only conceptual connections to the main characters, but he hasn't done that yet with Batman.

Also, Miranda Tate as the touchstone for Bruce to Thomas is kind of iffy for me. Primarily because he's got both Alfred and Lucius to provide him that. Lucius worked very closely with Thomas on the monorail project, and Alfred has been on Bruce about keeping his family's legacy alive since the beginning. Is he really going to need an outsider to do that for him?

One last thing, as far as Batman vs the LOS having already been done. It wouldn't be a true trilogy if it didn't really come back to that IMO. I mean, the Star Wars OT is all territory already done. Rebels vs Empire, Jedi vs Sith. Every film. There's no reason Batman vs LOS has to simply be a retread. There are certainly enough signs pointing towards the League playing into the plot to warrant the idea. And it would be out of character for Ra's not to have a whole slew of contingency plans. The idea is that Ra's was not simply a man, but a legend and a symbol. If Bruce is trying to create that in Batman, it's best to show that this is precisely what Ra's has done with his position and the League and that there are contingencies in place so that the League and it's cause goes on with or without Ra's al-Ghul. Which is where Talia comes into the mix, because without Ra's being physically there she's a definite heir to his legacy.

Excelsior.

06-27-2011, 01:50 PM

Why doesn't this thread have Marion pics like the Hathaway thread has Hathaway pics?

The_Raganork

06-27-2011, 02:04 PM

I have a hard time seeing Bane in isolation from the League because of Nolan's desire to bring the circle around. And it strikes me that for him Ra's and the League are sort of Batman's ultimate foes. Which, in terms of the scale of their evil-doings in the comics, they really are. Joker is the more iconic rogue, but no one challenges Batman so completely as Ra's al-Ghul. While Bane's origin is separate in the comics I have a feeling they are tied in the film.

And I also don't see Talia in isolation to that at all. If she was going to be there, it's going to be in a capacity related to the League whether Ra's is present or not. Which begs the question of how flashbacks to a younger Ra's are going to be able to exist at all. Either through Talia or Bane would be my guess. Short of gallivanting all over the world again to hunt down anyone who might know Ra's, those options seem to work the best. Nolan's certainly not immune to showing a parallel story that has only conceptual connections to the main characters, but he hasn't done that yet with Batman.

Also, Miranda Tate as the touchstone for Bruce to Thomas is kind of iffy for me. Primarily because he's got both Alfred and Lucius to provide him that. Lucius worked very closely with Thomas on the monorail project, and Alfred has been on Bruce about keeping his family's legacy alive since the beginning. Is he really going to need an outsider to do that for him?

Bringing things full circle doesn't mean playing the same thing over again.

That's why a lot of trilogies suffer from the third film curse because they don't know what to do new, so they go back to the first film.

This is perfectly evident in Return of the Jedi; the Death Star was the ultimate weapon in Episode IV and returned in episode VI. It wasn't very interesting we've seen it before.

Bane being truly threatening, to me, implies he'll be on his own. No other villain has been a piece of the puzzle before. Ra's, Joker, Two-Face all have their own reasons, not some ideologic group they follow and could be a pawn of.

I'm not saying if Bane is part of the LoS he'll be dumb but, since we've seen what's wrong with the LoS in BB having him follow Ra's al Ghul and/or Talia in this one really cuts into his place as the 'main villain'

If Talia and/or Ra's are going to be pulling the strings then this is a twist movie, not one focused on story, otherwise we would have known this, the movie would have been marketed as:

Batman, Catwoman, Talia Al Ghul

but BANE is the villain so having someone come in and be his keeper is just a little dismissive to his character and frankly I don't see Nolan doing that.

I do think of the LoS are apart of this film and Bane is related to them it won't be in an active role. So it won't be Talia cracking the whip on Bane making him jump, he'll be the boss of his regiment and if Talia is in it it won't be to regulate him.

That way you keep Bane's autonomy. Like Scarecrow in BB; even though technically he was working with/for Ra's he was presented as independent...I don't even think the two share a scene together.

Surely you can understand that concern.

As for your concerns about Miranda Tate being a touchstone for Bruce:

Well unless you think they're LYING to you about what she's going to do (at least in part) in the film, why would you think that? They've said she's going to be helping him with his philanthropic work...sure she can do more...but not doing that at all? That seems very improbable.

And yes Alfred or Lucius could do that but...they didn't. We've had two movies with them and neither of them have brought Bruce closer to Thomas. Who knows why? Nolan wrote it that way, an outside source, someone working in Wayne Enterprises is not outrageous because he has other people he could do it. Maybe he needs them all to do it. In TDK Bruce is suffering with being Bruce Wayne, so much so that he's acting as Batman 95% of the time on screen.

If Talia is in the film, I agree with you, Ra's place in the film will more than likely cross with hers.

But that's a big if, you must know that and it doesn't work backwards, you can't say if Ra's is in this film it will cross with Talia.

Until we know more (if at all) about Ra's place in this film we can't think his place is dealing with a character we don't know is in the film.

Which is why I think speculation on Ra's place with Bruce is a much better served discussion, you know FOR SURE Ra's place is going to have some impact or meaning to Bruce, simply because who he is to Bruce.

Maybe from that we can then see how Talia can fit in that picture.

TheBatman072

06-27-2011, 02:09 PM

The_Raganork

06-27-2011, 02:13 PM

Bringing things full circle.

Involves Bruce. The character whose story this is.

Not the Al Ghuls.

The whole "Bruce following in his father's philanthropic footsteps with the help of Miranda Tate" is where it comes full circle.

Back to his parents.

Right, that's how I see it too, because that way we aren't going over territory we've been at before.

_____ Al Ghul attacks Gotham Batman Fights them.

I know that's an oversimplification but, at the root of it all that's what's being suggested and I don't think Nolan would tell that story again.

He's a great writer and I think he'll move forward while looking back.

TheBatman072

06-27-2011, 02:16 PM

Right, that's how I see it too, because that way we aren't going over territory we've been at before.

_____ Al Ghul attacks Gotham Batman Fights them.

I know that's an oversimplification but, at the root of it all that's what's being suggested and I don't think Nolan would tell that story again.

He's a great writer and I think he'll move forward while looking back.

Yep. And instead of Fear Gas or economics, it'd be Bane, and instead of Ra's leading the charge, it'd be Talia. Basically a same ****, different day.

Yawn.

Bane as a free agent with his own motivations and ideals is the preferred. He has to want to break the Bat, he has to achieve everything he gained on his own. Otherwise, what is he?

DaveMoral

06-27-2011, 02:22 PM

Bringing things full circle doesn't mean playing the same thing over again.

That's why a lot of trilogies suffer from the third film curse because they don't know what to do new, so they go back to the first film.

This is perfectly evident in Return of the Jedi; the Death Star was the ultimate weapon in Episode IV and returned in episode VI. It wasn't very interesting we've seen it before.

Bane being truly threatening, to me, implies he'll be on his own. No other villain has been a piece of the puzzle before. Ra's, Joker, Two-Face all have their own reasons, not some ideologic group they follow and could be a pawn of.

I'm not saying if Bane is part of the LoS he'll be dumb but, since we've seen what's wrong with the LoS in BB having him follow Ra's al Ghul and/or Talia in this one really cuts into his place as the 'main villain'

If Talia and/or Ra's are going to be pulling the strings then this is a twist movie, not one focused on story, otherwise we would have known this, the movie would have been marketed as:

Batman, Catwoman, Talia Al Ghul

but BANE is the villain so having someone come in and be his keeper is just a little dismissive to his character and frankly I don't see Nolan doing that.

I do think of the LoS are apart of this film and Bane is related to them it won't be in an active role. So it won't be Talia cracking the whip on Bane making him jump, he'll be the boss of his regiment and if Talia is in it it won't be to regulate him.

That way you keep Bane's autonomy. Like Scarecrow in BB; even though technically he was working with/for Ra's he was presented as independent...I don't even think the two share a scene together.

Surely you can understand that concern.

As for your concerns about Miranda Tate being a touchstone for Bruce:

Well unless you think they're LYING to you about what she's going to do (at least in part) in the film, why would you think that? They've said she's going to be helping him with his philanthropic work...sure she can do more...but not doing that at all? That seems very improbable.

And yes Alfred or Lucius could do that but...they didn't. We've had two movies with them and neither of them have brought Bruce closer to Thomas. Who knows why? Nolan wrote it that way, an outside source, someone working in Wayne Enterprises is not outrageous because he has other people he could do it. Maybe he needs them all to do it. In TDK Bruce is suffering with being Bruce Wayne, so much so that he's acting as Batman 95% of the time on screen.

If Talia is in the film, I agree with you, Ra's place in the film will more than likely cross with hers.

But that's a big if, you must know that and it doesn't work backwards, you can't say if Ra's is in this film it will cross with Talia.

Until we know more (if at all) about Ra's place in this film we can't think his place is dealing with a character we don't know is in the film.

Which is why I think speculation on Ra's place with Bruce is a much better served discussion, you know FOR SURE Ra's place is going to have some impact or meaning to Bruce, simply because who he is to Bruce.

Maybe from that we can then see how Talia can fit in that picture.

Bane was always a wild card in relation to Ra's and the League anyway. So I'm not really thinking he'd be leashed if you will. Heck, he could deviate from the plan were that the case. There's that double angle of attack, but this time it becomes more personal for Bruce. Particularly if we've got the movie starting with him moving on the philanthropic endeavor... "Wayne" becomes the shining beacon that the city looks to for salvation, while they are hunting down Batman.

In order to bring the story full circle and complete the story of Bruce Wayne/Batman there obviously has to be involvement of Ra's al-Ghul, possibly/probably the League of Shadows, and at least potentially Talia in her capacity as Ra's daughter and heir, because of their involvement in the genesis of Batman. And, personally, I think he'll truly settle into Batman as the true identity. Bruce Wayne is still the cover, but he's going to realize that Thomas Wayne's values are the true motivator behind Batman, thus Batman's crusade has to continue beyond the night into the day via the Wayne Foundation. Bruce Wayne will become less the playboy dope that he's been, and more what his father was and Thomas Wayne is intimately tied up with the Batman. More so than Ra's. Ra's gave Batman the tools, but he did not give Batman his drive. That's Thomas Wayne through and through.

Majik1387

06-27-2011, 02:25 PM

So anyone think that Miranda may be a love interest to Bruce in some sort of way?(unrelated to Talia conversation please)

TheBatman072

06-27-2011, 02:28 PM

The_Raganork

06-27-2011, 02:32 PM

The_Raganork

06-27-2011, 02:33 PM

So anyone think that Miranda may be a love interest to Bruce in some sort of way?(unrelated to Talia conversation please)

Nah. I see her as strictly business oriented.

And if we're at all going to get a relationship between Bruce/Selina and Batman/Catwoman like in the comics(before they really get to know each other), then there's not room for Miranda on the romantic front.

Love triangles are dumb.

We've already done one too.

Rachel/Bruce/Harvey

Miranda/Bruce/Selena

I'm not sure we want to go down that line again.

Bruce/Batman/Selena/Catwoman is already a complicated love square as it is.

Majik1387

06-27-2011, 02:38 PM

I guess. I wouldn't expect anything over dramatic or big between the two, more like Miranda showing some interest but Bruce being distracted by Selina/Catwoman instead.

TheBatman072

06-27-2011, 02:40 PM

I guess. I wouldn't expect anything over dramatic or big between the two, more like Miranda showing some interest but Bruce being distracted by Selina/Catwoman instead.

It's possible. But I'd much rather see way more Bruce/Selina Batman/Catwoman than sacrifice any of that time for flirting between Bruce/Miranda.

flickchick85

06-27-2011, 03:47 PM

When she was cast, didn't the trades mention that Tate had a romantic interest in Bruce? It wouldn't surprise me in the least, tbh.

DaveMoral

06-27-2011, 07:12 PM

I agree with a lot of this last post but, disagree with a lot.

I think ideally we want Thomas wayne to be the thing that gave Batman his drive, and I think THATS going to be the message of TDKR but, I don't think we're there yet.

Thomas died and then? Bruce Ran.

I believe Thomas' DEATH gave Bruce drive but, not his father, who he was, what he stood for...I don't think Bruce has come to that revelation yet and there's nothing in the movies to suggest that he has. BB is really the only movie that deals with Bruce and every revelation moment, every thing he reveals about himself is a quote from Ra's....

Which is why I think our current Bruce/Batman is doomed.

Sure Bane has always been a wild card in relation to the LoS but, remember Nolan isn't trying to recreate comic books; he's telling his own story and up until this point he hasn't really stuck to the comics very much.

TDK was inspired by the long Halloween but, really doesn't resemble it much other than Harvey becoming Two-Face and it being a tragic story.

So I don't really expect him to start pulling off copies of the comics' stories now. He's more than capable of writing his own story and from what he's done in the past, it doesn't suggest that Bane will be a LoS attack dog.

Or that he's going to bring Ra's to open up pandora's Box of Al Ghuls; this is his last film, he's said it's going to have a definitive ending.

I think we know who all the players are; I don't think he's playing the angle of "who will effect the story"

I think we know the players now it's figuring out what the story is going to be and frankly Miranda Tate as given thus far is a huge part of Bruce wayne, even from this few lines.

Her role just as that could be monumental

I have a feeling any way you slice it, whether Miranda Tate is simply Miranda Tate or Talia al-Ghul in deep cover, she's going to be a big player story-wise if not screen time and lines-wise. But I agree with others, Miranda Tate as a love interest for Bruce is going to make that far to crowded since we are likely to get some romantic stuff between Bruce and Selina and of course Batman and Catwoman. And with the track record on romance as it stands, I really can't see adding yet another player to that mix being a good thing. And if Tate were to end up Talia I wouldn't want to see that happen either. I don't think there needs to be romance to have Talia question the goals of Ra's and the League.

As to Bane, I really don't see him as an attack dog. If he's related to the League, and I can fully see that happening especially as a counterpoint to something spawned by the League and Ra's(I mean, Bane having been taken in and trained by Ra's and turning out to be the absolute polar opposite to Batman and worse than Ra's would ever be would be pretty big IMO). The thing about Ra's al-Ghul on film, animation and comics is he's actually a fairly sympathetic character. I can fully see where he's coming from, especially the B:TAS and comic incarnations... from an environmental POV, humanity has been a disaster. And he wants that population shrunk. In BB, his methods are abhorrent but his entire ideology and goal is related to rooting out corruption and making the world a better place than what he sees. If Bane were spawned from that, but the mastermind that he is in comics... and he's just vicious and sadistic with no real motivating ideology other than him wanting to be the top dog(and that's been his motivation at least through where I was interested in him) that could be insane.

The_Raganork

06-27-2011, 07:16 PM

It could be insane but that's a Ra's story, not a Bruce Story.

I can see how Bruce Fits in but, that's the kind of thing for a spin-off film.

Him being Ra's failed student doesn't really have any weight on Bruce, except that he's getting his ass kicked by this guy.

DaveMoral

06-27-2011, 07:23 PM

I disagree, Bane could easily represent the kind of monster that Bruce could become. I guess I left out the part where I say that Bruce is becoming more and more consumed by Batman, or rather the rage that is part of Batman. I still think Batman is the true man and Bruce is the disguise. Him being on the outs with the GCPD is going to free him to really throw himself into the Batman and what he's after. Bane comes on the scene and puts Batman through the wringer and becomes the emblem of what Batman could become if he doesn't keep his anger in check(we've seen his anger get the better of him on a few occasions and there's definitely the possibility of him being consumed by the Bat). Then Bane really kicks his ass. Not broken, but at least out of commission for a while ass kicked.

There's a Ra's story in there, definitely. But obviously I'm just tossing out ideas that could be within the Bruce story. The focus is on Bruce, but the parallels are related to Ra's and Bane.

That's all for another thread probably, how Miranda Tate fits in there is from my POV through a couple different avenues. Either she's just Miranda Tate and no one else, and Bruce ends up spending more time with her while he's out of commission as Batman and it makes him realize something that's been missing from Batman or unacknowledged about Batman, and that's the drive for social justice that Thomas Wayne instilled in him. Or she's secretly Talia and those revelations about Batman and Thomas Wayne still come in, but she's also sabotaging what Bruce is doing.

Would Nolan go for Bruce questioning whether he's still going to be Batman forever(no pun intended) again? Even in the conclusion to TDK he doesn't seem to have acknowledged that. Which makes me wonder if the definitive end to the story/trilogy is actually in that resignation or acceptance that Batman is a lifelong mission, as much as because Batman is who he is on the inside and because there will always be wicked people to stand up against in Gotham or the world, for that matter. I doubt he'll close the trilogy with the end of Batman, and the film title doesn't lend itself to that IMO, but rather the end of this growth time where Bruce is not entirely sure that Batman is who he is. He still labors under the illusion that Batman is the disguise through BB and TDK.

The_Raganork

06-27-2011, 07:28 PM

I don't know if Batman needs to see that to know this. His selfish thoughtless choices Got Rachel and Harvey killed.

I think his eyes are opened to becoming a monster but, not a monster like Bane, just a shell of a human.

I don't think the fear in these movies is that Batman will become something Bane or something of that nature. He can handle his anger...that's not his mismanaging. His mismanaging is of Bruce.

I wrote a whole thing about Bruce being absent in TDK; there is almost no Bruce Wayne in TDK. Getting lost inside that monster of his is what we saw of Harvey. He had this anger, it controlled him it turned a man looking for justice into a criminal.

THAT'S the parallel to Batman.

I see Bane as something else...a challenge.

If anything I think Catwoman will be the image he'll compare himself too about being consumed by Batman. No matter what Batman won't become a villain like Bane

But a shady person like Catwoman...totally possible and I think that'll be explored in the same way you suggested Bane will be explored.

GrimmReaper7

06-27-2011, 07:34 PM

(Watching Raganork and Dave debate to the death)

http://ct.iscute.com/i20/2/8/31/f_e6763e66ea0a.gif

DaveMoral

06-27-2011, 07:36 PM

That .gif is the shiz.

Steyin

06-27-2011, 10:46 PM

http://i.imgur.com/tCp90.gif

bittersweet

06-28-2011, 01:00 AM

Here is short clip of Christian Bale and Marion Cotillard in Public Enemies.... I think they will have great chemistry even though she wont be the main female lead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trgDVhZHIrc

Starts at the 1:20 mark
http://www.accesshollywood.com/content/images/96/0x600/96091_christian-bale-and-marion-cotillard-are-all-smiles-at-the-premiere-of-public-enemies-on-june-18-2009.jpg
http://celebritywonder.ugo.com/picture/Christian_Bale/MarionCotill_Cohen_16850359.jpg

Majik1387

06-28-2011, 01:36 AM

I'd rather not watch Bale in Public Enemies anymore than I already did. One sit through was enough for the whole movie, especially him. Cotilliard had amazing chemistry with Depp though.

BatFan88

07-02-2011, 12:07 PM

i'am sure now that the leaked set clip is with Marion and not anne.

i mistaken.

The_Raganork

07-02-2011, 12:36 PM

i'am sure now that the leaked set clip is with Marion and not anne.

i mistaken.

Why?

BatFan88

07-02-2011, 01:56 PM

Because of the walk....At the near end of the clip
compare it with this.

UlQ5d9bEYH8

TheBatman072

07-02-2011, 01:58 PM

...

Well I'm glad you're here to settle that for us.

BatFan88

07-02-2011, 02:00 PM

...

Well I'm glad you're here to settle that for us.

:whatever:

I dont no if i can take this reaction serious.

TheBatman072

07-02-2011, 02:04 PM

:whatever:

I dont no if i can take this reaction serious.

Me neither.

kvz5

07-02-2011, 04:20 PM

ScottJRamsey

07-02-2011, 10:59 PM

I'm honestly surprised there's even a doubt that Miranda Tate is Talia. I'm kind of glad there is, though, because then even some Bat-fans will be surprised by the twist, I suppose.

Godzilla2014

07-02-2011, 11:02 PM

I'm honestly surprised there's even a doubt that Miranda Tate is Talia. I'm kind of glad there is, though, because then even some Bat-fans will be surprised by the twist, I suppose.

Really? What evidence compels you to this conclusion, beyond pure speculation?

TheBatman072

07-02-2011, 11:07 PM

ScottJRamsey

07-02-2011, 11:10 PM

Kynergy

07-02-2011, 11:16 PM

TheBatman072

07-02-2011, 11:18 PM

I have no evidence. Really, the only bases for my claim are Nolan's past work, the League of Shadows' being included, and a gut feeling.

Nolan's past work? What?

We have not heard a PEEP about the LoS being in this movie.

But definitely no hard evidence.

That's for sure.

ScottJRamsey

07-02-2011, 11:19 PM

We have no proof that the LoS is in this movie. And Liam Neeson being on set does not count as proof.

Hmmm...intriguing.

Young Ra's, Bane's previous association with LOS in some graphic novels, and constant rumors of their inclusion from various sources I guess made me jump to conclusions. But you're right...there is no definitive proof.

ScottJRamsey

07-02-2011, 11:20 PM

That's for sure.

:yay:

Do we know anything about this film, really?

Godzilla2014

07-02-2011, 11:36 PM

I have no evidence. Really, the only bases for my claim are Nolan's past work, the League of Shadows' being included, and a gut feeling. But definitely no hard evidence.

I really would like to revisit these posts in a year, though.

On a side note, the chemistry between Bale and Cotillard in Public Enemies was enthralling. Also, she's stunning in those pics above. I'm definitely happy she's in it, Talia or not.

Ok. If you have no evidence, only a gut feeling, then you can't say, in your own choice of words, "I'm honestly surprised there's even a doubt that Miranda Tate is Talia. I'm kind of glad there is, though, because then even some Bat-fans will be surprised by the twist, I suppose."
Your gut can really only tell you one thing without a doubt: If you're hungry.

ScottJRamsey

07-02-2011, 11:38 PM

Ok. If you have no evidence, only a gut feeling, then you can't say, in your own choice of words, "I'm honestly surprised there's even a doubt that Miranda Tate is Talia. I'm kind of glad there is, though, because then even some Bat-fans will be surprised by the twist, I suppose."
Your gut can really only tell you one thing without a doubt: If you're hungry.

Why can't I, if my reasoning for saying it is a gut feeling? Perhaps for someone else it would be a stupid way to draw a conclusion, but for me, it's a rather obvious conclusion to draw. I could be completely wrong - she could end up just being Miranda Tate. But, despite very little evidence telling me otherwise, that would absolutely, flat-out shock me.

I do like the last part of your post though, hah.

BatFan88

07-03-2011, 01:55 AM

We have no proof that the LoS is in this movie. And Liam Neeson being on set does not count as proof.

It's confirmed.

TheBatman072

07-03-2011, 02:05 AM

It's confirmed.

Which part? the LoS or Liam Neeson?

Because from what I know, nothing at all has confirmed the LoS being in this movie, which would leave Liam Neeson being on set for ONE day.

Majik1387

07-03-2011, 02:07 AM

No it isn't. Try again.

The_Raganork

07-03-2011, 07:24 AM

:doh:

Go back two pages, we had this discussion. None of those things count as proof.

hatebox

07-03-2011, 08:02 AM

I'd rather not watch Bale in Public Enemies anymore than I already did. One sit through was enough for the whole movie, especially him. Cotilliard had amazing chemistry with Depp though.

The movie was a total bore, but I thought Bale came off as the most interesting such as he was. I don't think Depp's capbable of playing straight characters anymore.

Gianakin_

07-03-2011, 08:06 AM

He was decent, considering his part was totally thankless. I didn't see any chemistry between him and Marion, though. Didn't they just share a scene or 2 in the entire movie?

hatebox

07-03-2011, 08:07 AM

Just 1 scene as I recall. Certainly not enough to make any kind of informed opinion on potential chemistry.

Gianakin_

07-03-2011, 08:09 AM

Yeah, thought so. What a terrible movie.

Godzilla2014

07-03-2011, 02:56 PM

Why can't I, if my reasoning for saying it is a gut feeling? Perhaps for someone else it would be a stupid way to draw a conclusion, but for me, it's a rather obvious conclusion to draw. I could be completely wrong - she could end up just being Miranda Tate. But, despite very little evidence telling me otherwise, that would absolutely, flat-out shock me.

The problem I have with the statement is not that you believe that Miranda Tate will be Talia in the film, rather, it is the absolute disbelief that anyone could doubt that. Had you said, "I am certain that Miranda Tate is Talia in the movie.", then I wouldn't have had a problem with it on that level. However when you said, "I'm honestly surprised there's even a doubt", then you said you were surprised that anyone could doubt a conclusion for which there is no evidence.

I do like the last part of your post though, hah.

Thanks!

BatFan88

07-03-2011, 03:15 PM

Me neither.

Then i know enough....

Pagan

07-03-2011, 07:10 PM

I hope she's Talia but we have nothing but rumor to base it on. The one thing that mostly makes me think she isn't is that she just had a baby in May. So her part in this will probably be small.

TheBatman072

07-03-2011, 09:04 PM

I hope she's Talia but we have nothing but rumor to base it on. The one thing that mostly makes me think she isn't is that she just had a baby in May. So her part in this will probably be small.

And the fact that she SAID her role was small.

ChrisB

07-03-2011, 09:11 PM

flickchick85

07-03-2011, 09:18 PM

That was actually less than two weeks after giving birth, as I recall.

kvz5

07-03-2011, 09:20 PM

That was actually less than two weeks after giving birth, as I recall.

Correct. I remember reading that as well.

ChrisB

07-03-2011, 09:29 PM

That was actually less than two weeks after giving birth, as I recall.

Amazing! Doesn't it usually take a couple months for a woman to get her body back to normal? I can't wait to see Cotillard in this, she was great in Inception!

IamtheBatman

07-03-2011, 09:30 PM

Amazing! Doesn't it usually take a couple months for a woman to get her body back to normal? I can't wait to see Cotillard in this, she was great in Inception!

You can't forget her in Public Enemies as well.

Rodrigo90

07-03-2011, 09:34 PM

If you want to see Marion looking really good, then I suggest you go on Google video and type "Marion Cotillard Sex Scenes" As my mothrr always said, "You little perv" :awesome:

kvz5

07-03-2011, 09:35 PM

:D

http://i.imgur.com/Ixz3H.jpg

ChrisB

07-03-2011, 10:02 PM

You can't forget her in Public Enemies as well.
Haven't seen it yet.

Doc Holliday

07-03-2011, 10:05 PM

And the fact that she SAID her role was small.

Will fanboys pay attention to that fact, though?

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7231/alfred.gif

TheBatman072

07-03-2011, 10:14 PM

Will fanboys pay attention to that fact, though?

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7231/alfred.gif

The look on Michael Caine's face: Priceless.

Kynergy

07-03-2011, 10:16 PM

Will fanboys pay attention to that fact, though?

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7231/alfred.gif

I'll see your Caine picture and raise you this,

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae234/Kynergy/alfrednevah.gif

Doc Holliday

07-03-2011, 10:20 PM

I'll see your Caine picture and raise you this,

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae234/Kynergy/alfrednevah.gif

I bow to the superior gif :applaud

flickchick85

07-03-2011, 10:24 PM

Amazing! Doesn't it usually take a couple months for a woman to get her body back to normal?
It varies - for some women it can take ages to get their body back (or never happen, lol), but for some, especially if they kept in shape before, the weight can almost instantly disappear. But yeah, being back in perfect shape and ready to work in less than two weeks is pretty impressive regardless.

Also, I still believe Cotillard's best performance in an American film to date by far was in Nine, regardless of the hate the rest of the film gets. She OWNED her scenes with Daniel Day Lewis, and that was Daniel Day f*****g Lewis for crying out loud.

Majik1387

07-03-2011, 10:57 PM

For realz. It's where I learned to love her. :atp:
And that film's hate is unwarranted. :o

kvz5

07-03-2011, 10:59 PM

I didn't realize until recently that Marion was the female lead in A Good Year. :doh:

Crockett

07-03-2011, 11:04 PM

I didn't realize until recently that Marion was the female lead in A Good Year. :doh:

I didn't realize it either until I saw the dvd and looked at the cover, and I have watched the movie. :o

TheBatman072

07-03-2011, 11:06 PM

I didn't realize until recently that Marion was the female lead in A Good Year. :doh:

She's also in a new Owen Wilson movie.

Although you wouldn't know it from the previews.

kvz5

07-03-2011, 11:08 PM

She's also in a new Owen Wilson movie.

Although you wouldn't know it from the previews.

Midnight in Paris? Just saw it and she was awesome in that. :woot:

ChrisB

07-03-2011, 11:08 PM

She's also in a new Owen Wilson movie.

Although you wouldn't know it from the previews.
Here's short clip with Cotillard:
http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi195795993/

Happy Jack

07-03-2011, 11:31 PM

I didn't realize until recently that she was in Big Fish, a movie I've seen several times.

ChrisB

07-03-2011, 11:34 PM

I didn't realize until recently that she was in Big Fish, a movie I've seen several times.
I've seen that, didn't know she was in it either.

flickchick85

07-05-2011, 12:33 AM

For realz. It's where I learned to love her. :atp:
And that film's hate is unwarranted. :o
Agreed. There were things about it that really disappointed me (as a fan of the Broadway version), but it was well-acted and well-shot...hardly the mess it's been made out to be. Penelope Cruz and especially Cotillard were fantastic.

I mean, seriously...

1QOitnhWEE8
The woman really knows how to "act a song," as they say.

Majik1387

07-05-2011, 01:03 AM

Agreed. There were things about it that really disappointed me (as a fan of the Broadway version), but it was well-acted and well-shot...hardly the mess it's been made out to be. Penelope Cruz and especially Cotillard were fantastic.

I mean, seriously...

1QOitnhWEE8
The woman really knows how to "act a song," as they say.
Re: Cruz & the show Nine; Nine was definitely the movie that made me love her. :atp:
As for Nine, it was a flop on Broadway, badly. The only good reviewed one was the revival with Antonio Banderas. And while I love the revival as well, the movie has it's place for me too.

Cotillard has just never disappointed me with any of her performances which is why I'm happy she has a role in TDKR, albeit a small one. Can't wait to see Tate; I have a feeling her role will be similar to Julie Madison in B&R but sized a bit bigger and written a hell of a lot better.

flickchick85

07-05-2011, 01:23 AM

Re: Cruz & the show Nine; Nine was definitely the movie that made me love her. :atp:
As for Nine, it was a flop on Broadway, badly. The only good reviewed one was the revival with Antonio Banderas. And while I love the revival as well, the movie has it's place for me too.
I wasn't born when it first hit Broadway, but the original starring Raul Julia was nominated for a ****load of Drama Desks and Tonys, and won several including Best Musical, so do you just mean a financial flop? In that case, yeah, that's not all that surprising.

Anyhoo, I misspoke - the version I'm actually a fan of (at least aurally, as I haven't actually seen a video of it), is the London Concert version starring Jonathan Pryce.

Cotillard has just never disappointed me with any of her performances which is why I'm happy she has a role in TDKR, albeit a small one. My thoughts exactly. I just hope it's a worthwhile role and not a glorified cameo like Caine had in Inception.

Can't wait to see Tate; I have a feeling her role will be similar to Julie Madison in B&R but sized a bit bigger and written a hell of a lot better.Well let's hope so. :woot:

kvz5

07-05-2011, 07:29 AM

Marion from the Senate House shoot:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/entropy...n/photostream/

The_Raganork

07-05-2011, 07:31 AM

:argh:

link not working!

kvz5

07-05-2011, 07:34 AM

Try this (her pics are at the bottom - I don't think the woman she's with is Anne though. Might be her assistant.):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/entropy1138/

The_Raganork

07-05-2011, 07:36 AM

Very awesome, thank you.

This is new info...but gives me no indication of anything :(

insider1970

07-05-2011, 12:08 PM

Try this (her pics are at the bottom - I don't think the woman she's with is Anne though. Might be her assistant.):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/entropy1138/

Yes, I think the shorter one maybe is Marion too. We know she is at Senate House actually filming according to a fellow in these forums http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=19501624

"They've been filming at Senate House in Bloomsbury (I work in that building - saw Christian Bale, Anne Hathaway, Marion Cotillard and someone who looked very like Morgan Freeman but wasn't actually him - so a stand-in or something!) They're back there filming at the beginning of this coming week".

And more confirmation according to this tweet: http://twitter.com/#!/LauraMCornelius/s ... 7080169472 (http://twitter.com/#!/LauraMCornelius/status/88192807080169472)

"Feel abit lost today watching Jeremy Kyle after hangin on set with Bale, Freeman, Hathaway, Cotillard and the awesome Christopher Nolan yest" (maybe she meant "vest"?)

To tell you the truth, with all this mention of Hathaway, I am now more curious as to what her role as Selina Kyle would be more than Marion's!! She seems to be everywhere..:whatever:

elgato

07-05-2011, 01:06 PM

This girl's my favorite actress, her inclussion in the movie's got me so damn excited.

flickchick85

07-05-2011, 03:13 PM

Try this (her pics are at the bottom - I don't think the woman she's with is Anne though. Might be her assistant.):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/entropy1138/
Yeah, there's no doubt in my mind that's Marion (she has a kind of distinctive personal style, lol), but that's definitely NOT Anne next to her.

kvz5

07-05-2011, 03:15 PM

Maybe it's Marcel's nanny. It would be cute if she brings her son to the set. :D

flickchick85

07-05-2011, 03:19 PM

It would be cuter (for my own selfish purposes) if she brought her man. :atp:

kvz5

07-05-2011, 03:23 PM

It would be cuter (for my own selfish purposes) if she brought her man. ;)

Ah, yes. True that. :hrt:

Alixyveth

07-05-2011, 05:28 PM

And more confirmation according to this tweet: http://twitter.com/#!/LauraMCornelius/s ... 7080169472 (http://twitter.com/#%21/LauraMCornelius/status/88192807080169472)

"Feel abit lost today watching Jeremy Kyle after hangin on set with Bale, Freeman, Hathaway, Cotillard and the awesome Christopher Nolan yest" (maybe she meant "vest"?)

I would think s/he meant "yesterday" and got cut off or shortened the word.

Sikri06

07-06-2011, 04:13 PM

I would feel cheated if Miranda Tate turned out to be Talia. I really hate that idea. Especially because I think that Nolan at least should have been open about using the same plot device twice and call her Talia Head. Or maybe with a different last name. "Head" sounds kinda silly. On the other hand we must keep in mind that the original casting call was for one female villain and one female love interest.

Excelsior.

07-06-2011, 05:04 PM

On the other hand we must keep in mind that the original casting call was for one female villain and one female love interest Which means nothing.

TheBatman072

07-06-2011, 05:13 PM

Which means nothing.

Yeah, that could very well have been a complete misunderstanding(somebody overheard somebody talking about Catwoman's character, who can be described as both love interest and villain and took it that that's what they're looking for, two different types of characters) or it could be total ********. Completely made up out of thin air.

Van Petrol

07-06-2011, 05:57 PM

^ Or it could be right? :huh:

Keep all options for now would be wise, IMO. Nothing has been officially confirmed nor debunked at this point in time.

The_Raganork

07-06-2011, 06:00 PM

Not again.... :doh:

Van Petrol

07-06-2011, 06:03 PM

There's nothing wrong with keeping an open mind, I can't understand why it is so hard for some of you to accept. For the record, I don't think she is Talia, nor do I really want her to be. But I don't see the problem in allowing those to speculate the possibility to be allowed to do so without coming under fire?

For what it's worth, the discussion has been moved to the Miranda Tate thread, like it was asked to do so by some a few days ago and you're still not happy. Sheesh...

The_Raganork

07-06-2011, 06:07 PM

:oldrazz:

I was only teasing you.

I think your line of reasoning its perfect.

sly

07-06-2011, 08:14 PM

I would feel cheated if Miranda Tate turned out to be Talia. I really hate that idea.

You might hate the idea, but I have a feeling it's going to be a pretty satisfying reveal to most people. Not like if the writers wanted to put Talia in the movie they rolled dice to figure out the best way to do it. Have faith if Tate is Talia, it'll be the right plot device for this movie. Don't use your worst case plot scenarios as a way to brush off a character's inclusion.

Majik1387

07-06-2011, 08:21 PM

She's. Not. Talia.

kvz5

07-06-2011, 08:23 PM

I don't care why but I hope Marion cries in the movie. She's such a good cryer. You just want to punch whoever made her cry and then hug her.

Visceral

07-06-2011, 08:36 PM

She's. Not. Talia.

I don't know that she is anymore than you know she isn't. But i can see why people would want her to be. She is a great femme fatale in Inception. The first scene screams talia to me. I'm open either way.

Mac_Hine

07-06-2011, 10:33 PM

I loves me some Marion, crying or not!

The Batman

07-06-2011, 10:37 PM

Yurka

07-06-2011, 11:08 PM

She's. Not. Talia.

You.Don't.Know.That.

I wish the assumptions would stop on both sides, who knows whether she is or isn't. It's all speculation.

Doc Holliday

07-07-2011, 01:50 AM

You might hate the idea, but I have a feeling it's going to be a pretty satisfying reveal to most people. Not like if the writers wanted to put Talia in the movie they rolled dice to figure out the best way to do it. Have faith if Tate is Talia, it'll be the right plot device for this movie. Don't use your worst case plot scenarios as a way to brush off a character's inclusion.

No it won't. It will be a cheap recycling of the twist from BB. I will be sorely disappointed if Nolan has "Talia" pull the same stunt her father did, and Batman, the world's GREATEST detective, has no idea of it. It's a weak ending.

Doctor Who

07-07-2011, 02:06 AM

You.Don't.Know.That.

I wish the assumptions would stop on both sides, who knows whether she is or isn't. It's all speculation.

110% in full agreement.

flickchick85

07-07-2011, 02:40 AM

Van Petrol

07-07-2011, 08:30 AM

I dont want her to be Talia simply because from 2005 or so, everyone who's touched the character has royally screwed her up. She's no longer the complex character who had as much chance of being "the one" for Bruce as Selina does. Now, she's just the psycho ex who dosent have Bruces love like Selina does. Ugh.

I'm actually more interested in a wayne/tate romance, just because I can see Bale and Cotillard having better chemistry than Bale and Hathaway. Not saying that'll be the case, though.

That’s a fair enough point. But that doesn’t necessarily mean Nolan would royally screw the character up too, if he were to incorporate the character at all. Nolan does seem to have a knack for implementing his own interpretation on a character to help suit the story he is trying to tell.

Van Petrol

07-07-2011, 08:32 AM

FFS, I wish we knew something more about the character just so we'd have something, anything else to talk about that's not the same damn She Is/Isn't Talia debate that's been going on since she was cast. :csad:

Lol, we can't have that. That would defeat the purpose of Nolan's cloak and dagger way of working. :cwink:

Sith Scotti

07-07-2011, 08:49 AM

Its pretty obvious she is Talia .

Kynergy

07-07-2011, 08:51 AM

Its pretty obvious she is Talia .

:doh: There is nothing obvious about it. It is pretty obvious that she is Miranda, though.

The_Raganork

07-07-2011, 08:54 AM

Its pretty obvious she is Talia .

Why?

Sith Scotti

07-07-2011, 08:57 AM

From my persepective it looks LOs will somehow be incorporated w into this film giving the Ras flashbacks , we already Selina as the romantic lead for Bruce ,connecting the dots , I am pretty sure LOS will try and hurt Bruce from the inside ala Wayne industries . Now it is possible Miranda Tate is a villian and not Talia but I am not buying that

Doctor Jones

07-07-2011, 08:58 AM

As far as the press release goes, she is Miranda Tate. Nobody else. If she's Talia it's speculation.

This is just reminds me of the AMH thing. I really don't think they're going to include yet another huge character into this. I mean Talia is for a whole other movie. If you inserted her what could you exactly capture with their true relationship as Talia only when she's pretending to be somebody else entirely? Where would the pay off be? I mean they would develop this relationship as Tate and Wayne and then she's suddenly Talia? I doubt Bruce would join her in the end. Using the twist yet again is stupid. It would seem to contrived if they tried to fit her in. Like a last minute thing. We have Bane and Catwoman to develop.

I mean think about this. No matter how they reveal she's Talia, it's still the same exact twist in BB. Not only is that unpredictable (I don't know why people would honestly want this to happen, if she's really Talia, there has to be a reveal, and it's the same thing. Why are people so adament they want to see the same thing again?) but it's stupid.

Sure we don't know if she's just Tate, but right now she just is that. But I'm using reasoning here and my reasoning comes to the conclusion that making her really Talia with a reveal of her being who she is, is dumb, and I don't see why Nolan would do such a stupid thing. That would kill the film.

The_Raganork

07-07-2011, 09:01 AM

From my persepective it looks LOs will somehow be incorporated w into this film giving the Ras flashbacks ,

ok; that's not a far leap...I can accept it. But Ra's could be a flashback on his own, he was more important to Bruce, than the entire whole of the LoS

we already Selina as the romantic lead for Bruce

We do?

,connecting the dots , I am pretty sure LOS will try and hurt Bruce from the inside ala Wayne industries

Why?

. Now it is possible Miranda Tate is a villian and not Talia but I am not buying that

Why?

What about her being...Miranda Tate?

Kynergy

07-07-2011, 09:02 AM

I don't think I can take another Talia speculation, my frail news deprived body just can't handle it. :o There is no evidence pointing to Talia. You may like the idea, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing that can happen.

batboy99

07-07-2011, 09:04 AM

No one knows if she is or isn't Talia forsure. Let's leave it at that. If people want to speculate on the idea that she is, let them. Same goes for people who think she isn't.

Doctor Jones

07-07-2011, 09:06 AM

I just don't get why they would. It seems they want her to be Talia. I don't see why they want to see the same twist again with the same kind of build up from her being someone else. Where the hell is the sense in that?

The_Raganork

07-07-2011, 09:07 AM

No one knows if she is or isn't Talia forsure. Let's leave it at that. If people want to speculate on the idea that she is, let them. Same goes for people who think she isn't.

Why do you say this?

Who is stopping anyone?

Nevincer

07-07-2011, 09:10 AM

Hey guys, Talia Al Ghul :awesome:

The_Raganork

07-07-2011, 09:13 AM

Hey guys, Talia Al Ghul :awesome:

:funny:

SHH Batboard key reaction words:

Lazarus

Pit

Realism

Purple

Blue

Talia

Al

Ghul

Soon

Bilal

Jett

Kynergy

07-07-2011, 09:15 AM

Hey guys, Talia Al Ghul :awesome:

:dry::cmad::wall::woot:

Nevincer

07-07-2011, 09:16 AM

:funny:

SHH Batboard key reaction words:

Lazarus

Pit

Realism

Purple

Blue

Talia

Al

Ghul

Soon

Bilal

Jett

So true. :applaud Would you mind if I sigged this? :awesome:

The_Raganork

07-07-2011, 09:16 AM

So true. :applaud Would you mind if I sigged this? :awesome:

Of course not

Kynergy

07-07-2011, 09:18 AM

:funny:

SHH Batboard key reaction words:

Lazarus

Pit

Realism

Purple

Blue

Talia

Al

Ghul

Soon

Bilal

Jett

I think something about Hardy's size needs to be added in there. :awesome:

The_Raganork

07-07-2011, 09:20 AM

yeah, "practical effects, cleavage, trunks, fabric, armor, Robin" are also on the list

Van Petrol

07-07-2011, 09:21 AM

Don't forget to add 'Perma-white'.

The_Raganork

07-07-2011, 09:25 AM

oh boy if we're working retroactively this list will be massive!

Van Petrol

07-07-2011, 09:34 AM

If you're going to do something, you may as well do it right... :cwink:

The_Raganork

07-07-2011, 09:36 AM

:funny:

batboy99

07-07-2011, 11:48 AM

Why do you say this?

Who is stopping anyone?

I just see so many people saying she's not like it's a fact. No one knows forsure.

The_Raganork

07-07-2011, 11:51 AM

I see people saying she is like it's a fact.

That's not stopping me from telling them, the reasons behind their beliefs are erroneous and insufficient.

QueenChaos

07-07-2011, 06:15 PM

I find myself reading the title of this thread as if it's suggesting there is a "Miranda Tate II".

The_Raganork

07-07-2011, 06:21 PM

I find myself reading the title of this thread as if it's suggesting there is a "Miranda Tate II".

According to some people there is and her name is Talia

Doc Holliday

07-07-2011, 06:24 PM

Don't forget to add 'Perma-white'.

That makes me tired just thinking about the debates...:ikyn

The Guard

07-07-2011, 06:57 PM

Personally I'd rather see her end up being Talia than see her not be. I don't really care if it's a potentially obvious twist if it's a relatively satisfying one. So was the casting of Liam Neeson as Ra's Al Ghul, and that story twist wasn't exactly brilliant. This could be a daughter using her father's methods, but with more subtlety and cunning.

I don't really give a fig about Miranda Tate, just like I didn't give a fig about Rachel Dawes. I care about Talia Al Ghul. Talia Al Ghul belongs in a franchise that Ra's Al Ghul was involved in.

TheBatman072

07-07-2011, 07:28 PM

Majik1387

07-07-2011, 07:35 PM

I've cracked her role. Miranda Tate is actually Crazy Quilt's daughter.

TheBatman072

07-07-2011, 07:36 PM

Aunt Agatha too.

If Alfred is in both movies, then it's time for Aunt Agatha to get her due.

sly

07-08-2011, 08:14 AM

Robin and Batgirl belong in a franchise that Batman and Commissioner Gordon were involved in.

Talia makes much more sense at this point in the trilogy than Robin or Batgirl... especially considering it's Batman's "early" years.

If Alfred is in both movies, then it's time for Aunt Agatha to get her due.

I realize you're trying to be funny, but I still don't understand why you guys think Talia is THAT big a stretch? Regardless of whether Tate = Talia, why would you compare her inclusion with Aunt Agatha or Crazy Quilt's daughter? This is the major issue we seem to have when anyone wants to discuss Talia being in the movie.... they're met with those types of comments. Her inclusion is not at all out of left field, like say the discussions about Mike Engel/Coleman Reese being Riddler. The only reason I've heard so far why she won't be in the movie is that Liam Neeson didn't mention having a daughter in Batman Begins. No way you can use the "it's not in a press release" excuse either. Two Face wasn't... hell, neither was Catwoman.

MagnarTheGreat

07-08-2011, 09:22 AM

I realize you're trying to be funny, but I still don't understand why you guys think Talia is THAT big a stretch? Regardless of whether Tate = Talia, why would you compare her inclusion with Aunt Agatha or Crazy Quilt's daughter? This is the major issue we seem to have when anyone wants to discuss Talia being in the movie.... they're met with those types of comments. Her inclusion is not at all out of left field, like say the discussions about Mike Engel/Coleman Reese being Riddler. The only reason I've heard so far why she won't be in the movie is that Liam Neeson didn't mention having a daughter in Batman Begins. No way you can use the "it's not in a press release" excuse either. Two Face wasn't... hell, neither was Catwoman.

I don't think it's a stretch (http://tdkrtimeline.wikispaces.com/Miranda+Tate). :yay:

But keep on, keepin' on.

The_Raganork

07-08-2011, 09:51 AM

I don't think it's a stretch (http://tdkrtimeline.wikispaces.com/Miranda+Tate). :yay:

But keep on, keepin' on.

It's funny someone could chronicle all that information and mostly all of it is just taking large reaches to prove a point

MagnarTheGreat

07-08-2011, 10:00 AM

It's funny someone could chronicle all that information and mostly all of it is just taking large reaches to prove a point

People should have the tools from which to argue "Tate is Tate" or "Tate is Talia" without resorting to "oh yes she is!" or "oh no she's not" or "there's no information!" or "yes there is...um somewhere...where was that link, I forgot?" on forums and elsewhere. I supply them.

The_Raganork

07-08-2011, 10:05 AM

People should have the tools from which to argue "Tate is Tate" or "Tate is Talia" without resorting to "oh yes she is!" or "oh no she's not" or "there's no information!" or "yes there is...um somewhere...where was that link, I forgot?" on forums and elsewhere. I supply them.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Reasonable arguments rooted in some kind of fact is EXACTLY what this board needs more of. Thamks for bringing some information to this thread

That link has a couple of good points to argue for Talia (which is a lot more than anyone has given here)

But a lot of them are still speculation based on speculation.

"Liam Neeson was hidden as Ra's Al Ghul"

It's a terrible argument, that was two movies ago and because it happened before doesn't necessitate that'll happen again.

Now I'm not saying Tate isn't Talia but, I'm saying until we know more (if we ever do) there's not a strong basis to argue that point. We don't know anything about the character that would lead us to believe she's Talia.

Even Ducard could have been figured out from his role, the man who leads him into the league of Shadows.

If she is Talia, then we'll see something. Her in costume, make-up, something!

But as of right now, we don't have enough information to come to a reasonable conclusion that Tate is Talia.

For this much I could say Blake is Riddler.

Majik1387

07-08-2011, 12:13 PM

Tate is the new Engel and Reese.

Doc Holliday

07-08-2011, 12:38 PM

Tate is the new Engel and Reese.

This.

kvz5

07-08-2011, 02:21 PM

First look at Marion's new Dior campaign (this was the shoot that she did just last June):

http://i.imgur.com/q0NEm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3e0mr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bt3g1.jpg

MiniBond

07-08-2011, 02:23 PM

catwoman would have been nice for her !:woot::hrt: so weird to have her in a movie but not as Cat's and with someone else playing the part !

KRIM

07-08-2011, 02:57 PM

Seeing those pics makes me hope they do wonders for Anne, because Catwoman should absolutely be the best-looking woman in the film.

Blue Sugar

07-08-2011, 03:08 PM

Well in the end good looks is mostly individual. For example personally I find Maggie Gyllenhall to be overall more attractive and interesting than Megan Fox.

But yeah I still think the casting of Marion in this movie is cool a big FY to the shallow fans that claims Nolan can't cast attractive women.

sly

07-08-2011, 04:43 PM

But yeah I still think the casting of Marion in this movie is cool a big FY to the shallow fans that claims Nolan can't cast attractive women.

Um... who says that? Off the top of my head:

Carrie-Anne Moss - "Memento"
Katie Holmes (pre-Cruise) - "Batman Begins"
Scarlett Johansson - "The Prestige"
Marion Cotillard - "Inception"
Anne Hathaway - "The Dark Knight Rises"
Marion Cotillard - "The Dark Knight Rises"

batboy99

07-08-2011, 05:19 PM

Yeah, as much as I like Anne, Marion is still my Selina.

Godzilla2014

07-08-2011, 09:14 PM

Yeah, as much as I like Anne, Marion is still my Selina.

Why? She has never played the character, so how could she be?

flickchick85

07-08-2011, 10:36 PM

Why? She has never played the character, so how could she be?
She was the top choice for some people here, myself included. I'm fully supportive of Anne, and I think she'll be great... but I have to admit, it'll probably take a while for me to be able to watch this movie without the phrase, "what if..." crossing my mind once or twice. Especially with Marion actually IN the film to remind me, lol. Currently, the live-action Selina Kyle in my head still looks and sounds like Marion Cotillard - I can't even help it. I'm expecting (hoping for) that to start changing as soon as I see Anne in action.

batboy99

07-08-2011, 11:13 PM

She was the top choice for some people here, myself included. I'm fully supportive of Anne, and I think she'll be great... but I have to admit, it'll probably take a while for me to be able to watch this movie without the phrase, "what if..." crossing my mind once or twice. Especially with Marion actually IN the film to remind me, lol. Currently, the live-action Selina Kyle in my head still looks and sounds like Marion Cotillard - I can't even help it. I'm expecting (hoping for) that to start changing as soon as I see Anne in action.Same. And she doesn't have to had already played the role for her to be who I see in the role :s

Humphrey Bogart

07-10-2011, 10:15 PM

Timstuff

07-12-2011, 02:15 AM

I think "Miranda Tate" is just a ruse by the production crew to hide her character's real identity.

My guess? She's playing Talia. ;)

Doctor Who

07-13-2011, 02:58 AM

First look at Marion's new Dior campaign (this was the shoot that she did just last June):

http://i.imgur.com/q0NEm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3e0mr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bt3g1.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll287/RobStill926/Gordon.jpg

*Whiplash*

07-13-2011, 03:19 AM

:pal:

Awesome!

a cupcake mess

07-13-2011, 05:48 AM

I think "Miranda Tate" is just a ruse by the production crew to hide her character's real identity.

My guess? She's playing Talia. ;)

i pray. i want to see her as a villian.

july

07-13-2011, 09:15 AM

Marion is so damn beautiful- its absolute madness that she is not Catwoman. As much as I like Hathaway, she just doesn't have that mysterious, intriguing quality that Cotillard has in spades. I hope Marion Cotillard is Talia because I just don't think Hathaway will make a memorable Catwoman and this opinion is based on her work thus far.

coderaven24

07-13-2011, 01:05 PM

Miranda if not presented as Talia will be the reason or pulling force that causes Bruce not to want to return to Batman.

Even if her roll will not be much, it will have to played by someone who make the audience feel that. Colliard's talent won;t be wasted if she is not Talia.

TheBatman072

07-13-2011, 01:12 PM

i pray. i want to see her as a villian.

Then watch Inception.

Marion is so damn beautiful- its absolute madness that she is not Catwoman. As much as I like Hathaway, she just doesn't have that mysterious, intriguing quality that Cotillard has in spades. I hope Marion Cotillard is Talia because I just don't think Hathaway will make a memorable Catwoman and this opinion is based on her work thus far.

Does that work include Princess Diaries?

If so, back to the drawing board you go.

DIRECTOR

07-13-2011, 01:17 PM

i think we all know that Miranda is a Ducard type of girl

Majik1387

07-13-2011, 01:45 PM

i pray. i want to see her as a villian.

Then watch Inception.
I was literally about to post the same thing.

ModestMr.Green

07-13-2011, 02:20 PM

Oh hell. Just when my excitement for Batman was reignited by the new teaser poster, this thread gets bumped back up and reminds me that this woman is in the film.

floreairfoot

07-13-2011, 02:25 PM

After seeing the little girl that was cast along with the younger version of Ras, how could anyone still have doubt that Talia is going to be in it?

She looks just like Marion lol.

Majik1387

07-13-2011, 02:29 PM

She could just as easily be Tate's daughter. Or Gordon's niece. Or anyone else.

Sith Scotti

07-13-2011, 02:37 PM

I'm really hoping that Miranda Tate is just an avatar for someone more interesting. What we've been told about the character doesn't seem anywhere near intriguing enough for someone of Cotillard's talent and gravity onscreen. We'll see soon enough...
She is Talia. I don't get those wamting her gor Selena. Selena don't have an accent. Talia does , and I will be shocked if she ain't Talia

Majik1387

07-13-2011, 02:40 PM

How do we know Talia has an accent? :huh:
Or are we just going with cliches here?

coderaven24

07-13-2011, 02:42 PM

I personally dread her being Talia.

I enjoy the character but feel she won't be given the justice she deserves if Catwoman is in this film.

Sith Scotti

07-13-2011, 02:42 PM

How do we know Talia has an accent? :huh:
Or are we just going with cliches here?
We know Marion does , and how is it a cliche ? She has an accent . You either do or you don't.:awesome:

Majik1387

07-13-2011, 02:47 PM

Marion has an accent. Talia is debatable. Miranda is unknown. Marion is not Talia. Miranda is not Talia. Marion is Miranda.

Sith Scotti

07-13-2011, 02:50 PM

Marion has an accent. Talia is debatable. Miranda is unknown. Marion is not Talia. Miranda is not Talia. Marion is Miranda.

Marion has an accent .and she has yet to pull off a role where the accent wasn't there. So I will assume Miranda will have an accent

Miran is Miranda in the same wat as Liam Neeson was not Ras , but was Henri Ducard.:awesome:

Majik1387

07-13-2011, 03:23 PM

Marion hasn't had a role that's called for her to lose her accent, so of course she doesn't have a role without it.

And no.

Godzilla2014

07-13-2011, 03:41 PM

I personally dread her being Talia.

I enjoy the character but feel she won't be given the justice she deserves if Catwoman is in this film.

I do as well. Putting both Talia and Catwoman in a Batman film would be like putting both Lana Lang and Lois Lane in a Superman film: More likely than not, someone is going to get the shaft.

Oh hell. Just when my excitement for Batman was reignited by the new teaser poster, this thread gets bumped back up and reminds me that this woman is in the film.

Why? Do you hate Marion Cotillard?

Sith Scotti

07-13-2011, 04:09 PM

Marion hasn't had a role that's called for her to lose her accent, so of course she doesn't have a role without it.

And no.
Her characters in Public Enemy & Inception , accents were not needed for . Not saying they hurt her performance but until she can pull of a english speaking role without an accent her range is limited to me

The Guard

07-13-2011, 06:23 PM

After viewing the trailer, with what looks like it may be Bruce in prison, anyone think maybe he's framed for Miranda's murder, MURDERER/FUGITIVE style? And then she turns back up again as Talia? It's a long shot, I know...

Majik1387

07-13-2011, 06:33 PM

Her characters in Public Enemy & Inception , accents were not needed for.
Don't misinterpret what I said. I said she hasn't had a role where she needed to lose her accent, not that her roles needed an accent.
Not saying they hurt her performance but until she can pull of a english speaking role without an accent her range is limited to me
That's a naive way of thinking.

flickchick85

07-13-2011, 07:15 PM

Her characters in Public Enemy & Inception , accents were not needed for . Not saying they hurt her performance but until she can pull of a english speaking role without an accent her range is limited to me
Until Meryl Streep can pull of a French-speaking role without an American accent, her range is limited to me.

RedSkull

07-13-2011, 07:16 PM

when is bruce in PRISON in the trailer? not at all

Sith Scotti

07-13-2011, 07:30 PM

Until Meryl Streep can pull of a French-speaking role without an American accent, her range is limited to me.

Im not questioning her acting abilties . Just certain roles she couldn't pass off on . Such as Selena growing in Gotham with a French accent:awesome:

And Streep as good as actress as she is is not right for every part . Its not meant as an insult ./ Marion is a good actress . Her accent is sexy

Pagan

07-14-2011, 11:20 AM

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/570/cotillardking.jpg

I would bet money that Marion is Talia and King is her younger self in the flashbacks.

RedSkull

07-14-2011, 12:03 PM

I'm fairly certain this movie will have flash backs sadly but I dont think that will be one of them

coderaven24

07-14-2011, 12:07 PM

I don't think anyone can honestly say she is not Talia at this point or that she is.
Those pics you selected are pretty impressive.

I still stand by thought that if she is, I prefer her interaction with Bruce than catwoman as she presents a lot more closure in his character.

One the characters will surfer from the other one being in it.

DrCosmic

07-15-2011, 03:51 PM

Okay, here's my best shot at "She's playing Talia." Ready?

The Batman Begins franchise has been very good at great supporting characters. Even with little screen time, Batman's team of sidekicks (Alfred, Fox, Gordon) have been pretty great. I think that this woman who is attempting to right the wrongs that Ra's has done in the past may connect with the girl in the flashbacks. I think that this reveal can indeed be very gripping even with just 15-20 minutes of screen time for Miranda Tate. Ra's Al Ghul's dream has come true, Batman is indeed the head of the league.

Or it's possible that Nolan is just extremely selective on who he works with, and only wants to give speaking roles to people he trusts. But I really do think that Nolan plans to put Marion's talents to work.

flickchick85

07-15-2011, 04:06 PM

Im not questioning her acting abilties . Just certain roles she couldn't pass off on . Such as Selena growing in Gotham with a French accent:awesome:
To be fair, though, we don't know what Selena's backstory will be. It's certainly varied enough in the comics to be open to interpretation. If she's a fake socialite, she may have left Gotham for a period of time to build her new identity. Or honed her skills overseas or something. Kinda like Bruce. An accent could play into that. Not saying I expect them to do that (I don't at all), but ya never know.

And Streep as good as actress as she is is not right for every part . Its not meant as an insult.Apologies, I misunderstood. "Limited range" is usually meant as an insult. NO actor/actress is right for every part. That doesn't necessarily mean they have limited range.

Humphrey Bogart

07-15-2011, 06:44 PM

How do we know Talia has an accent? :huh:
Or are we just going with cliches here?

What exactly would you point to in order to discredit this "cliche"?

DC Batman

07-15-2011, 07:49 PM

Ok now I'm starting to believe that she can be Talia...What's interesting is that if you click on the character on IMDb...it would direct you to Talia's profile. Also after seeing the actress on Inception, I can definitely see her as the character.

Doc Holliday

07-15-2011, 08:00 PM

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/570/cotillardking.jpg

I would bet money that Marion is Talia and King is her younger self in the flashbacks.

I'll be waiting to collect next July, then.

Nevincer

07-15-2011, 08:11 PM

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/570/cotillardking.jpg

I would bet money that Marion is Talia and King is her younger self in the flashbacks.
Eh... could be Miranda Tate's daughter.

The Dark Guybrush

07-15-2011, 10:25 PM

^ They look almost exactly alike!

The Wizard

07-15-2011, 10:25 PM

Is she Talia or is she not. That is the question.

UUBee

07-15-2011, 11:47 PM

Joey King is playing young Selina.

Ra's al Ghul hasn't existed in a really long time, so Talia (whether she ever lived or not) doesnt exist

flickchick85

07-16-2011, 12:17 AM

Joey King is playing young Selina.

What makes you think that? The kid has big blue eyes, and Anne has big brown ones. You'd think if they were casting a young Selina they would have at least been looking for a kid with similar features.

UUBee

07-16-2011, 12:25 AM

What makes you think that? The kid has big blue eyes, and Anne has big brown ones. You'd think if they were casting a young Selina they would have at least been looking for a kid with similar features.

they do have similar features. Don't be mislead by people posting pictures where incidentally, Marion and King look alike. People say JGL and Heath look alike, too, yet they dont....anybody who has met them both in real life could attest to that.