The Official Batman Forever Thread - Part 2

[BatmanRules33]

I'm not sure what everyones final opinion on Forever is, but i would like to know. so far, ive been hearing mixed reviews, some hate it, some love it, and some are luke warm about it. my question for this thread is: Is batman forever a "decent" batman movie, even if its close to being the disaster B&R was? for me, im lukewarm about it, i felt that kilmer, even though not the best bruce wayne/Batman, did try to be a good batman, but under the direction of schumacher, he wound up not being the best Bman he could be. clooney however.....dont get me started, horrible. but kilmer i felt was a bit better. plus, i felt like forever still had a darkness to it (though a heck of a lot more colorful then burtons), and infinitly more darker then horrible B&R, so anyways im just curious what you all think of Forever, your 'final' opinons??

[Riven]

Decent may just be the word. It's not bad... but it definitely isn't good either.

I wrote an opinion piece about it for Batman-On-Film.com:

Click here to read it (http://www.batman-on-film.com/opinion_petervg_batmanforever_jan252005.html) ;)





:batman:

[Two-Face]

Batman Forever was decent cos Tim Burton helped Schumacher when Schumacher did B&R without Burton it fallan into pieces.

[DAN1987]

All in all a decent film. Although what annoys me is the nipples on the bat-suit and the "i'll get drive through". I belive Kilmer did a great job though. Was'nt faithful to the comics..which drags it down a great deal.

[Pksoze]

It's a mediocre movie.

I think it looks better in the Theatres than on dvd or video in the stunts department.

If you're a big Two Face fan though you may hate it.

[bones1971]

Batman Forever was decent cos Tim Burton helped Schumacher when Schumacher did B&R without Burton it fallan into pieces.

Burton did NOT help Schumacher. He was made an "honorary" executive producer. As was a tip to the cap when they used Dr. Burton in Arkham. Tim Burton himself admitted to not even being on set at any time nor having any imput what so ever. All he got was a simple phone call from Schumacher asking him what he thought about him directing Batman 3. Burton gave his blessing. Thats where it ended.

[Dark Angel]

1st of all i want to tell you that Batman Forever is my favourite movie! and in my opinion i think Bf is: Excellent, Wonderful, Decent, Super-Puper, Great, Dark movie!!!!:)
http://img62.exs.cx/img62/8236/batman296uf.jpg

[Chomp]

None of you disliked Two Face? Two Face in BF was everything that Two Face in the comics wasn't. Two Face lives and dies by his coin...in BF he goes against what the coin says and flips it again...WTF!?!?

Plus The Riddler's riddles were TOO DAMN EASY.

For that BF sucks as a Batman film AND is an atrocious attempt at a theatrical film.

[bones1971]

Dark Movie? Two face jumping around like Jack Nicholson's Joker with a goofy smile on his face. I think Jones and Schumacher did zero character study in the two-face character. It was the most unfaithful potrayal of any of the villians in the movies.

[Chomp]

Dark Movie? Two face jumping around like Jack Nicholson's Joker with a goofy smile on his face. I think Jones and Schumacher did zero character study in the two-face character. It was the most unfaithful potrayal of any of the villians in the movies.

What I find hysterical is that Schumacher "claims" to this day, that he is a huge fan of the comics...LoL.

I wonder how excellent the 2 Bat films would have been if he had never read a comic in his life?

[The Guard]

Plus The Riddler's riddles were TOO DAMN EASY.

Right. I'm sure you figured them out right away.

[Chomp]

Right. I'm sure you figured them out right away.

Some of them I did...but I was speaking about in the movie. They were way too easiliy figured out by Batman. The riddles are usually truely thought provoking, complicated, perplexing riddles that the police cannot solve. In BF, Batman solves each riddle in a matter of minutes of recieving them.

Understand now smartass?

[Swordmaster]

actually, it showed what a keen mind Wayne had. I enjoy Batman Forvevr, and I hope the directors cut gets released

[Chomp]

What good is the character of THE RIDDLER when his riddles are solved within minutes? Tell me that.

The Riddler's riddles should take a while to figure out...they should be bizarre, trapezoidal verbal conundrums...lateral thinking puzzles that defy rational thought, then make perfect sense once solved. In the movie, this was certainly not the case. Edward Nigma is a genius who is obsessed with riddles...why then, couldn't he think up any good ones?

[Riven]

The "numbers on my face" one and the one about the match are actually riddles that I knew as a kid (6-7 years old?)


The others are not much harder to figure out, if you take a minute. It shows Bruce has a keen mind. The keen mind of a primary schooler.

The TRUE riddle is how that BULLS#!t explanation towards the Riddler's identity ever made it into the movie...

"each riddle has a number. 12, 1, 8, 5. Letters of the alphabet? M A H E? what if 1 and 8 are 18? M R E. Mister E. Mystery! Enigma! Mister E Nigma! Edward Nigma!"

That is both so easy and so illogical.

[GL-Corps#28]

It has enormous flaws, and is in no way a great movie, but Forever is my favorite non-animated Batman film.:up:

[LastSunrise1981]

Dark Movie? Two face jumping around like Jack Nicholson's Joker with a goofy smile on his face. I think Jones and Schumacher did zero character study in the two-face character. It was the most unfaithful potrayal of any of the villians in the movies.

That's not true at all. It's been reported that Tommy Lee Jones knew about Two-Face and wanted to do an accurate comic depiction of him; however, Joel wanted him to act like he did in the movie and that's what ultimately led to them not getting along on the set.

It's also reported that Val and Joel didn't get along either. Both Val and Tommy wanted a darker Batman film, but it was obviously too late once the filming started.

It's left a real bitter taste in Val's mouth; because still he refuses to talk about BF in interviews or articles. Tommy never seems to mention it either, but I'd love to hear his opinion on the upcoming BB.

[GuestStar2004]

What I find hysterical is that Schumacher "claims" to this day, that he is a huge fan of the comics...LoL.

I wonder how excellent the 2 Bat films would have been if he had never read a comic in his life?

just because batman forever wasn't burton material, doesn't mean he isn't a fan of the comics

its just the way he chose to do the film that bothers you, and i think he tried to please people who remember the 60's tv series, fans of the animated series and burton batman films fans.... and maybe it just doesn't mix well

burton didn't do the penguins charactor right in br, but you can't accuse him of not reading a comic

[Two-Face]

Tommy Lee Jones is great actor and I like all his films, Jones would have made darker Two-Face if he didn't been told by Schumacher to play Two-Face like Nicholson's Joker. Val Kilmer did try to be dark and serious at times as Bruce Wayne and in a Batsuit, Kilmer had nice voice as Batman unlike George Clooney.

[GL-Corps#28]

Kilmer, Clooney, Thurman, Carrry, Jones, and possibly Schwarzenegger and O'Donnell all could have done been fantastic in their respective roles, if they had been given proper direction and better scripts. Some of them did do good jobs, IMO, they just weren't really anything like their comic book counterparts.

[etrigan69]

For my money they have never, and probably will never create a faithful to the comic movie. Sometimes you get a glimpse though. The part in BF when Kilmer took on Two Face's goons was the closest for me. Batman swinging in to meet with Gordon and Chase. The look on Kilmer's face when he survived being flamed by using his cape. Glimpses. But never the entire movie.

[etrigan69]

P.S. Two-Face was awful. I don't know if he was like that in the script. The performance for me really had more in common with Cesar Romero's Joker than Two-Face from the comics.

[Chomp]

just because batman forever wasn't burton material, doesn't mean he isn't a fan of the comics

This thread isn't about either of the Burton films...its about Batman Forever. No where in any of my posts did I compare Burton and Schumacher.


its just the way he chose to do the film that bothers you, and i think he tried to please people who remember the 60's tv series, fans of the animated series and burton batman films fans.... and maybe it just doesn't mix well

No, I said what I dislike about the film...Batman Forever wasn't a take off of the 60's TV Series...it was a continuation of the last 2 Batman films. The setting and cinematography I could care less about...What I hated was the way the two villains of Two Face and The Riddler were played out as. They both were worthless, laughable villains. In the comics, Two Face and The Riddler are two of Batman's greatest pathological, sadistic villains.

burton didn't do the penguins charactor right in br, but you can't accuse him of not reading a comic

Burton didn't read the comics.

Again, Burton's films have its flaws, but this thread is not about them. This thread is about whether or not Batman Forever was a decent Batman film. And in my opinion, I feel it wasn't.

[Comic Book Boy]

I am willing to admit that BF is a decent bat-film....I still don't think it was good (too sci-fi) But I still enjoy some of it....Kilmer was good.

[GuestStar2004]

This thread isn't about either of the Burton films...its about Batman Forever. No where in any of my posts did I compare Burton and Schumacher.



No, I said what I dislike about the film...Batman Forever wasn't a take off of the 60's TV Series...it was a continuation of the last 2 Batman films. The setting and cinematography I could care less about...What I hated was the way the two villains of Two Face and The Riddler were played out as. They both were worthless, laughable villains. In the comics, Two Face and The Riddler are two of Batman's greatest pathological, sadistic villains.



Again, Burton's films have its flaws, but this thread is not about them. This thread is about whether or not Batman Forever was a decent Batman film. And in my opinion, I feel it wasn't.


you said you doubt he read a comic in his life, and i just felt i should say something to that..

and i know forever was not a take of the 60s version, but there were some mild hints as such

[Chomp]

you said you doubt he read a comic in his life, and i just felt i should say something to that..


Where did I say that I doubted if Schumacher read the comics?

I was the first one in this thread to state Schumacher is a big fan of Batman comics....http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

[GuestStar2004]

i thought that was why you found it funny, as you doubted it was true!

sorry but i thought that was what you was getting at! :S

[Proximo]

....

[BatmanRules33]

i think the "flaws" that burton made are forgiveable, but in BF and B&R, they are just too "out there" to be forgiveable, IMO.

[GL-Corps#28]

I've gotta say, I just recently got around to watching all of the batfilms. I'd seen them all before, but not since I'd become a hopeless fanboy. And I have to say, none of them really impress me at all. They all have lements that I enjoy, and I would put maybe two of them in the "Movies I like" category, but all around I was just really disappointed.:(

[I_believe_you]

I've gotta say, I just recently got around to watching all of the batfilms. I'd seen them all before, but not since I'd become a hopeless fanboy. And I have to say, none of them really impress me at all. They all have lements that I enjoy, and I would put maybe two of them in the "Movies I like" category, but all around I was just really disappointed.:(

Couldnt have said it better myself.

[hammerhedd11]

Dark movie!!!!:)


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHANEVER SAY THAT AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!




*coughs*:p

[Whack Arnolds]

BF was enjoyeable on its first viewing, add to the fact I was like 9 when I saw it. But repeat viewings it severly blows cow nuts.

[TheZoomZoomKid]

It's the best out of the four movies.

[Whack Arnolds]

It's the best out of the four movies.Hahaha, Good joke, I get it. :) :up:

[GL-Corps#28]

I agree with him.:confused:

[BatmanRules33]

B89 and BR were, for me, the most enjoyable, everything after that was mediocre and/or horrid.

[_achilles_]

B89 and BR were, for me, the most enjoyable, everything after that was mediocre and/or horrid.

i agree with that

[GLREBORN]

:) Yes It Was A Decent Movie. Not Great But Decent.:)

[Whack Arnolds]

The best part of Batman Forever is Seal's "Kiss from a Rose".... :)

[graveyardtramp]

A little bit off the topic, but when BF came out in Australia I was doing film and video reviews on a Melbourne radio show, and the main host of the show got to interview Tommy Lee Jones via telephone. Jones was in Queensland to promote the movie and also the opening of Warner Brothers Movie World, and during the interview Jones had some VERY terse things to say about the movie, the director and Jim Carey (among which were his claims that Carey - at the height of his fame - got his way in every scene regardless of how the other actors felt, and that while filming the climax of the film none of the actors had any idea what the hell was going on). Anyway a Warner Brothers rep was obviously in the room with Jones during the interview, and after it was over she called up the host of the radio show I was part of and told him that if the interview went to air the show would never get any help from Warner in the future....

The interview never did air, and I wish I had obtained a tape of it, now that I am no longer part of the show (although it is still airing). But it was obvious that the film was not a good experience for Jones, probably one of the reasons he doesn't discuss it much these days.

Of course I have no way to back this up, but it certainly did happen.....

Anyway just thought you might find it interesting.....

I also remember there was a one-hour Australian BF television special hosted by Ray Martin (popular Aus TV host), and he interviewed Kilmer via satellite and Kilmer for the most part just stared at the screen and said very little...I remember Ray Martin saying something to the effect that Kilmer may be the best Batman we have seen to date, but as an interview subject he was entirely unhelpful and uncooperative....

[Two-Face]

It's not just Jones had problem with Schumacher it's so Val Kilmer and others played in Batman Forever. I think Kilmer would had been good Batman if Forever was darker lke Tim Burton's Batman and Batman Returns next to Michael Keaton.

[Tobiaswins]

I friggin hated that movie! Man where do I start?

Well the first thing that comes to mind is how Batman makes himself known to the general public. Now I'm no comic book reader and I could be wrong on this, but to me, Batman has always been a mystery to the general public, and not someone who shows up to a public court hearing in full costume.
I also agree that two face was way way way way off. The Riddler was messed up also, again I could be wrong on this, but to me the Riddler was always kind of a behind the scenes villian, not someone who robs banks and acts crazy. To me the Riddler should be calm and cool, like a person who thinks they have all the answers. Robin seemed to old to me, and what is up with the Batcave being seperated from Wayne Manor by a simple wooden door. And did anyone else notice that when the alarm was sounded in the cave, you know "intruder allert", that instead of everything being locked down, it becomes exposed, the car and everything. The whole two girlfriends thing for two face was a novel idea, but I thought it sucked on screen.

There are more, but I'll give it a rest for now.

peace. :cool:

[R3M3D1]

The best part of Batman Forever is Seal's "Kiss from a Rose".... :)

The U2 track was betterhttp://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

It was a good action flick, nothing special.

There were some good action/stunt scenes in it though.

'Kilmer' Batman was a better fighter than 'Keaton' Batman IMO.

[Antinicolae]

I friggin hated that movie! Man where do I start?

Well the first thing that comes to mind is how Batman makes himself known to the general public. Now I'm no comic book reader and I could be wrong on this, but to me, Batman has always been a mystery to the general public, and not someone who shows up to a public court hearing in full costume.
I also agree that two face was way way way way off. The Riddler was messed up also, again I could be wrong on this, but to me the Riddler was always kind of a behind the scenes villian, not someone who robs banks and acts crazy. To me the Riddler should be calm and cool, like a person who thinks they have all the answers. Robin seemed to old to me, and what is up with the Batcave being seperated from Wayne Manor by a simple wooden door. And did anyone else notice that when the alarm was sounded in the cave, you know "intruder allert", that instead of everything being locked down, it becomes exposed, the car and everything. The whole two girlfriends thing for two face was a novel idea, but I thought it sucked on screen.

There are more, but I'll give it a rest for now.

peace. :cool:

I had never given the courtroom scene a second thought until now, but it does seem pretty comical that batman showed up in court. And when the film first came out, I didn't think about the entrance to the cave. However, when I watched it a few weeks ago, it really didn't make much sense. Also, words cannot describe the improbability of the bank vault swinging back into its original position.

[WhiteRat]

Batman Forever was the ONLY Batman movie that was halfway decent.The other three were all just plain dog doo.

[Flame on!]

It's not the best Batman film ever made, but it's a damn enjoyable ride.

[Batty for Bats!]

Hmm... Good Question!..
I believe it is decent for an average..
The first viewing in theaters IMO kicked ass except the ever present architecture of goofy-land instead of the more gothic architecture that i came to love in Burton's films.
The second viewing was at my home whenever it came out on vhs. It was okay at best, i started to pick up on all the weird and out of place things.
The third viewing was 2 years later after i saw it last. That sucked. The only good thing about it was Kilmer's portrayal of both Bruce and Bats.. Not to mention Kidman's... never mind. Everything stupid stuck out like a sore thumb. Alot was mentioned by Tobiaswins. Observation and perception picks up alot from whenever you are 9to 16ish.

[Guason]

Why would Two Face die for his coin if he did what he pleased, anyways?
I don´t get it.

[Kevin Roegele]

I'm one of the biggest supporters of Forever on the Hype. Apart from the admittedly bad lapses into camp, and Tommy Lee-Jones, it's a fantastic movie. Here is my five-point defence of the movie.

1. There's so much packed into it! Two-Face's revenge, Edward Nygma becoming the Riddler. Dick Grayson becoming Robin, Chase and Bruce, Bruce giving up Batman, Bruce's forgotten memories resurfacing, Batcave being destroyed, the Batboat and the new Batwing.....somehow all the elements are tied together perfectly. Proberbaly the best script for any superhero movie - and if you read the original drafts or the novel, it was even before.



2. Tommy Lee-Jones' Two-Face is no more silly or campy than Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin. Jim Carrey is not at fault here, his crazy lunatic is hilarious and at times creepy. It's the fact that Two-Face isn't nasty and serious enough that unbalances the bad guys.

3. Visually awesome. Despite two much neon at times, cinematography is superb. The Batcave looks fantastic. Best costumes in any superhero movie, Robin has never looked better (except for you know what). It looks like the world comicbooks imagine, rather than trying to make a comic come to life ala Dick Tracy.


4. Casting. Val Kilmer. Bob Kane said he was the closest to the character he created. Nicole Kidman is great, taking it seriously but playing slightly larger than for a normal film. She looks literally twice as good here as she ever has done anywhere else. Chris O'Donnell does proberbaly his best ever work as Dick, and his anger and sadness and youthful naivety really come thru in his scenes with Bruce.

http://www.batmans.de/Galerie/bm95/004.jpg

5. It's really guilty by association with Batman Forever. Few people actually realise they are quite different movies, despite the similarities. Simply but, Batman Forever is a serious movie with silly elements. Batman & Robin is the same movie with those elements reversed.

[Vile]

I hated the movie almost as much as I did Batman and Robin - For many reasons, mind you, many that have been stated already.

The biggest is two words - ROCK. CLIMBING.

Bruce, in an effort to get laid tells Chase he's going rock climbing this weekend and would like her to come along...All the while Two-Face, supposed crazed killer and all, is on the loose.

Nice to know Batman, despite having INSANE SERIAL KILLERS WANDERING ABOUT, takes his weekends off.

That movie was NOT the Batman we know who, oh I dont know, made a vow that what happened to his parents would never happen to anyone else...but that comes second to a weekend get-away!

[Supermaniac]

for just your average everyday guy i'd say its a descent movie for a hardcore Bat fan it is not.

[P. Cushing]

That's not true at all. It's been reported that Tommy Lee Jones knew about Two-Face and wanted to do an accurate comic depiction of him; however, Joel wanted him to act like he did in the movie and that's what ultimately led to them not getting along on the set.
Wrong. The tension between Jones and Schumacher was because Schumacher was pissed at Jones for his relentless muggin and trying to outdo Carrey.

[P. Cushing]

Batman has always been a mystery to the general public, and not someone who shows up to a public court hearing in full costume.
He was doing that kind of thing all the time from 1940-1970.

[P. Cushing]

Bob Kane said he was the closest to the character he created.
I didn't see Kilmer running around in a domino mask and red tights! Besides, he also said that about Clooney.

[P. Cushing]

There's a number of things I like about BF:
1. Kilmer. He made an effort to continue Keaton's portrayal of Batman and was more of a 70s Comics type Bruce Wayne.
2. Recurring duality. Batman and Robin are a duo. So are Riddler and Two-Face. Batman has two identities. Riddler is after one and Two-Face is after the other. Batman has to choose between Chase (Bruce Wayne) and Robin (The Batman). Two-Face has a split personality, Riddler uses his Nigma identity as a front.
3. The scene between Bruce and Dick after Dick takes the mobile for a ride. Kilmer, O'Donnell and Gough all do a great job and the scripting is excellent.
4. Dick and Bruce's character arcs are both excellently done.
5. Nicole Kidman never looked so good.
6. The opening scenes are classic Batman. He suits up, swings in, confrences with Gordon and takes on the villain and his henchmen.
7. Michael Gough.
8. The Diary subplot. Even though most of it was edited out of the final cut by the bastards at WB.
8. The panther suit is excellent (except for the nipples).
9. The fight sequences are very well done.
10. Cinematography is great.
11. Two-Face's opening monologue is great, and Jones's best performance in the whole film.
12. They came up with a good reason for him changing his suit, not just doing it for the sake of it.
13. Robin's suit was very good.

[The Guard]

Some of them I did...but I was speaking about in the movie. They were way too easiliy figured out by Batman. The riddles are usually truely thought provoking, complicated, perplexing riddles that the police cannot solve. In BF, Batman solves each riddle in a matter of minutes of recieving them.

Understand now smartass?

Yes, but apparently you don't.

The Riddler's riddles have never been extremely brilliant or difficult in the comics. They are not difficult if you have the right mindset and can get into it quickly and see things the way The Riddler does, and Batman has always been able to solve them fairly quickly. For one thing, The Riddler has a compulsion in leaving riddles: He, on some level, wants to be discovered, and he wants to be pursued. He wants Batman to know how smart he is, how much planning went into each caper, and that he's not just the average criminal (even though, though his actions, he is). BATMAN FOREVER nailed this aspect of the character. BATMAN FOREVER nailed a lot. Definitely a decent Batman film, if not a perfect one. More later.

[Infinity9999x]

Wrong. The tension between Jones and Schumacher was because Schumacher was pissed at Jones for his relentless muggin and trying to outdo Carrey.

How exactaly do EITHER of you know what was going on between Jones and Shumacher? Neither of you were there so you can't really comment on it until you ask them both.

[Infinity9999x]

Definitely a decent Batman film, if not a perfect one. More later.[/QUOTE]

A perfect film? Batman had bat-nipples and neon, that alone brings it down from perfect, granted it still is a decent film, but it still wasnt as good as 89 in my own personal opinion.

[Guason]

I thought the BR´s suit was the best.

[The Guard]

A perfect film? Batman had bat-nipples and neon, that alone brings it down from perfect, granted it still is a decent film, but it still wasnt as good as 89 in my own personal opinion.

Ah, the English language...

I meant exactly the opposite of what you thought I meant. I accept that BATMAN FOREVER had it's flaws. I still think it was a very decent Batman film, and a good film overall.

[Infinity9999x]

Ohhh ok I understand now I had to read the sentence again to get the meaning. lol and yes the english language does have a tendancy to confuse easily.

[Vile]

I agree that the riddles left to Batman were too easily solved...True, in the comics Bats always seemed to get them right on but we as the reader usually didnt. Horrible lines in that scene as well..."

"How about...Mr. E?" "Mystery!" "Another name for a mystery?" "An enigma!" *We watch as the wheels turn, though it's painfully obvious* "Mr E. Nigma...EDWARD NIGMA!"

Yeah okay..and the huge brainsucking blender demonic island being built in the middle of the bay wasnt the first clue...

[Riven]

Yeah okay..and the huge brainsucking blender demonic island being built in the middle of the bay wasnt the first clue...
Never mock the huge brainsucking blender demonic island! It is wise and terrible! :p

http://www.kesigndesign.com/medium/batman3a.jpg

[Chomp]

The Riddler's riddles have never been extremely brilliant or difficult in the comics. They are not difficult if you have the right mindset and can get into it quickly and see things the way The Riddler does, and Batman has always been able to solve them fairly quickly. For one thing, The Riddler has a compulsion in leaving riddles: He, on some level, wants to be discovered, and he wants to be pursued. He wants Batman to know how smart he is, how much planning went into each caper, and that he's not just the average criminal (even though, though his actions, he is).

Does he have a compulsion to leave stupid and lame riddles as well? The Riddler character in the comics has a manic exterior personality that hides his calculating arrogant interior personality; Carrey puts no dimension to the role and plays the Riddler like Ace Ventura on crack. But that is not Carrey's fault. Jim was given such horrible material to work with to become the Riddler, that he had to adopt his own flair into the character, which ultimately overpowered any minimal elemets of The Riddler that Carrey was given. Jim did this to ensure his character could be recognized throughout the film...because his riddles certainly left nothing of a mark.

The riddler in BF makes me appreciate Frank Gorshin.

Definitely a decent Batman film, if not a perfect one.

Yea definately a perfect Bat-film, especially with the likes of these great aspects:

-A mockery of what Batman really is
-The portrayal of Burce Wayne as a spoiled brat that didn't get his way rather than a vengeful person with motive to stop evil.
-Batman being transformed into a commercial shill for the WB to sell merchandise
-A Robin in his MID-TWENTIES
-A physically goofy and loud Two-Face
-Riddles that the Riddler conceives are stupid and predictable
-A love interest that felt like a cardboard cut out
-The moronic action (a grappling hook swinging a bank vault into a skyscraper)
-Camp, comedy, and over the top stunts
-CGI city...Gotham felt like it was built in a studio behind a blue screen. It was Las Vegas, not Gotham

What?!?!?!...That is Batman to a T!
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Give me a f@#$ing break...

[Furious Styles]

I'm of the mind that it was a decent "Batman" film in general. It had it's good points, as well as its bad points. I think the original Director's Cut had the ability to help the film moreso than anything. It had a pretty decent cast, but I just think it was style over substance. Some of the characters were misplayed somewhat or didn't come across as well as the characters could have.

I think it was a throwback to the Batman television series. All in all though, because I don't want to get into specifics, I thought it was watchable. It wasn't particularly as good as B'89, but it wasn't as bad as B&R. I think it is in the buffer zone. Some people like it because it isn't Keaton/Burton, some people hate it because of Schumacher and some people are in the middle.

[P. Cushing]

Yea definately a perfect Bat-film, especially with the likes of these great aspects:


Are you ****ing blind? The Guard stated that it was NOT a perfect Batman film, as he explicitly explained to a previous poster who made the mistake of thinking as you did. Next time, read the whole thread.

[The Guard]

Why BATMAN FOREVER is decent?

Good acting from Val Kilmer, Nicole Kidman and Michael Gough

Great scenes like:

Like someone else said, the opening, Suiting up, which has become a stable of comic book films now, driving to Gotham, Batman swinging down to confront Chase and Commissioner Gordon, and giving his take on the situation, then going inside, kicking ass, saving the guard's life and going for a ride on the copter. And yes, Two-Face's opening monologue was good, too.

Batman rescuing Dick to be attacked and having to explain his actions. "If Bruce Wayne could have given his life for your parents...he would have."

The death of Dick Grayson's parents and the entire circus scene leading up to it.

The joining of Batman and Robin, and the stuff that comes before it, like Bruce's speech about the nature of vengeance. Dick Grayson's character, period, was fantastic. He was a laughing young daredevil without being over the top or campy. He was also pretty darn capable as a fighter/acrobat.

Anything involving Bruce's psychology about his parents, and how he remembers pieces about how he came to be The Batman. And yes, the duality/split personalities thing was all throughout the story.

Chase Meridian. A love interest that was neither dumb or weak, but still managed to make a good damsel in distress. Her role in Bruce's life was fantastic, her performance sizzled and hit all the right emotional notes. The rooftop scene was fantastic, as was the bedroom scene. Shades of Silver. St. Cloud.

Cinematography was indeed wonderful.

The suits, including both the Batsuit and the Robin suit, were fantastic. The Riddler also had some great costumes, and Two-Face's, while over the top, came right out of the comics and was well done.

I agree that the riddles left to Batman were too easily solved...True, in the comics Bats always seemed to get them right on but we as the reader usually didnt. Horrible lines in that scene as well..."

"How about...Mr. E?" "Mystery!" "Another name for a mystery?" "An enigma!" *We watch as the wheels turn, though it's painfully obvious* "Mr E. Nigma...EDWARD NIGMA!"

Why are those horrible lines? That's what The Riddler wanted. To be discovered.

Yeah okay..and the huge brainsucking blender demonic island being built in the middle of the bay wasnt the first clue...

No one said that didn't suck. But if The Riddler's going to be a threat...

Does he have a compulsion to leave stupid and lame riddles as well?

Stupid and lame riddles would be "What has four legs, and ticks?" The riddles that Riddler left were not simple to solve (despite what our resident geniuses pretend to have done), nor was the manner in which they came together to point out the Riddler's identity simple.

The Riddler character in the comics has a manic exterior personality that hides his calculating arrogant interior personality; Carrey puts no dimension to the role and plays the Riddler like Ace Ventura on crack.

Except for when he was reserved, for instance when he was playing Nygma, not The Riddler, or wanted to get a point across. Maybe you should read some comics that featured The Riddler before Jeph Loeb got ahold of him. He went around giggling, screaming things and ranting and raving quite a bit. Yes, there was a lot of Jim Carrey in his performance, and it worked pretty well.

But that is not Carrey's fault. Jim was given such horrible material to work with to become the Riddler, that he had to adopt his own flair into the character, which ultimately overpowered any minimal elemets of The Riddler that Carrey was given. Jim did this to ensure his character could be recognized throughout the film...because his riddles certainly left nothing of a mark.

Which elements of The Riddler weren't shown?

-A mockery of what Batman really is

How so?

-The portrayal of Burce Wayne as a spoiled brat that didn't get his way rather than a vengeful person with motive to stop evil.

You didn't watch this movie, did you?

"I would use its image to strike fear into the hearts of those that would do evil. I would have my revenge."

-Batman being transformed into a commercial shill for the WB to sell merchandise

Like he's not in every other version he's ever been?

-A Robin in his MID-TWENTIES

Actually he was supposed to be 18. I've seen a lot of 18 year olds that look like that. Especially athletes.

-A physically goofy and loud Two-Face

Are you referring to his outfit or just his personality?

-Riddles that the Riddler conceives are stupid and predictable

Because you figured out exactly what he was doing right off the bat, right?

-A love interest that felt like a cardboard cut out

Hardly. She was anything but a Bond girl type.

-The moronic action (a grappling hook swinging a bank vault into a skyscraper)

Let's talk about cars that leaps across rooftops. Was it realistic? Not really. Did it obey the laws of physics? Not really. Neither do half the things you see in the comics. That scene was cool.

-Camp, comedy, and over the top stunts

God forbid a Batman film have a little camp and a little humor. You know, since the comics are completely devoid of it. Over the top stunts such as...

-CGI city...Gotham felt like it was built in a studio behind a blue screen. It was Las Vegas, not Gotham

Looked like Gotham to me.

[hulkamania85]

I thought Batman Forever was not nearly as good as the first two but still all right. Some problems:

-Bat nipples. A hint of things to come
-"I'll get drive through". Another hint of things to come.
-Gotham not as gothic. Not too big a deal because it was still dark enough, but the old look for Gotham was better.
-Two-Face was more like Joker 2 than his own character.

I thought Jim Carrey was a great Riddler even though he'd be a better Joker. I liked having Robin in a Batman movie even though it would have made a little more sense to have Robin be younger.

[Chomp]

Good acting from Val Kilmer, Nicole Kidman and Michael Gough

Val Kilmer will NEVER be considered Batman to me. The guy was a stiff...literally, he was stiff. Two Face could have thrown his coin at Val and it would have bounced about 10 feet in the other direction. Also, Val had no facial expressions whatsoever. He looked like he had the glazed over look of just being hit over the head with a hammer. If you are going to be an actor, its a little hard to get into the mind of the acting, when you have no physical mannerisms. Keaton had faical expressions. Everytime he gave a squint or a frown, or the movement of his lips, you knew EXACTLY what he was thinking. He had a readable face...Kilmer does not.

Nicole Kidman's part as Chase is just a recycled rehash of several other psychologists. It was a cardboard cut-out with no entertaining aspects at all. But by far she was the best actor in the film.


Stupid and lame riddles would be "What has four legs, and ticks?" The riddles that Riddler left were not simple to solve (despite what our resident geniuses pretend to have done), nor was the manner in which they came together to point out the Riddler's identity simple.

Give me a break. That sounds like a riddle a teacher would give her third grade students. You show me ONE riddle from the comics that is as lame as any of those from BF...show me. And it has to be from a comic that is from well respectible source material. Even riddles from BTAS are far superior than anything from BF, and its a kid's show!: "Shall we play the Riddler's game; with meaning changed but word the same? Then find the founder who found fame before he founders in his name." This is probably my favorite from the TV series.

I maybe influenced by Jeph, but let's face it, he put The Riddler on the map as being one of Batman's greatest villains. The Riddler was pretty much a small villain before that.


You didn't watch this movie, did you?


I wish I hadn't.


Like he's not in every other version he's ever been?

Not to BF's extent.


Actually he was supposed to be 18. I've seen a lot of 18 year olds that look like that. Especially athletes.[/quotes]

He didn't look 18 to me...unless you see a lot of maturely developed 18 year olds. Face it, he looked old...too old to play Robin.


[QUOTE=The Guard]
Are you referring to his outfit or just his personality?

His personality...he played exactly like Joker before him. It seemed as if he only had one side in the movie...lame.



Because you figured out exactly what he was doing right off the bat, right?

Have you forgotten my posts already?



Hardly. She was anything but a Bond girl type.

Yea, she was a cardboard cut...nothing new, just a rehash of other characters from other movies. It actually felt as if Chase was a character from another film...like she was digitally manipulated into the screen from another film. Boring.



Let's talk about cars that leaps across rooftops. Was it realistic? Not really. Did it obey the laws of physics? Not really. Neither do half the things you see in the comics. That scene was cool.

How old are you 12? What's cool is Batman gliding through the air with bats, breaking in from an above window, that Batmobile looking sleak yet different...BF's Batmobiles was just different...and hideous if you ask me. It also seemed totally impractical.


God forbid a Batman film have a little camp and a little humor. You know, since the comics are completely devoid of it. Over the top stunts such as...

A little? The whole goddamn script was developed by camp and humor.


Looked like Gotham to me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Chomp_on_this/GC.jpg

Of course it did.http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Gotham City is suppose to be Gothic...The 3 D's: Dark, depressing, decaying. BF's Gotham City was full of colorful buildings that lit up the night sky as if you were taking a stroll through the strip.

The animators didn't draw over black paper for nothing, while constructing Gotham for BTAS.

Look, I am glad you like the film...at least someone does. But for me, it wasn't Batman. It wasn't Batman and it wasn't a good film. We can argue this case Forever, but you nor will anybody change my mind on this atrocity of a Batman film, let alone a theatrical film.

Are you ****ing blind? The Guard stated that it was NOT a perfect Batman film, as he explicitly explained to a previous poster who made the mistake of thinking as you did. Next time, read the whole thread.

Next time, STFU.

[Vile]

Why are those horrible lines? That's what The Riddler wanted. To be discovered.


Really? Well instead of leaving crappy Riddles (which anyone with an IQ over that of what I keep my THERMOSTAT at could solve) he should have just left a big ol' sign that said EDWARD NIGMA = RIDDLER - oh thats right, HE DID (AGAIN) with the huge ass claw base in the middle of the bay...not to mention chatting with Two-Face openly when the Joker-wannabe 'crashed' his party.

Then again, you can't blame Batman for all this...he was supposed to be rock climbing that weekend.

[The Batman]

I like Batman Forever more than i like Batman Returns

Val gave a good performance as Batman. Sometimes, i feel its even better than Keatons. His whole look as Bruce/Batman was great. The suit, besides the nipples, was probably the best Bat-outfit. The Bruce/Dick drama was great, and they did a better job of looking into Bruce's psyche better than in the first two flicks. Hell, did we even really get into Bruce's head in Returns? The action was definetely better, especially the first fight scene.

Tommy Lee Jones couldve done a better job as Two-Face. And I dont know why everyone comes in and says Riddler's such as psycho in the comics, cause i dont remember it like that. In fact, besides the 60's TV show, I always thought Riddler was kind of a lameass.

[Chomp]

Then again, you can't blame Batman for all this...he was supposed to be rock climbing that weekend.

LMAO...too true. http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/icon14.gif

And I dont know why everyone comes in and says Riddler's such as psycho in the comics, cause i dont remember it like that. In fact, besides the 60's TV show, I always thought Riddler was kind of a lameass.

It's true, The Riddler has often been disreguarded as a main villain, until in recent years where he was actually brought to a form that quite possibly could be a larger than life villain. The Riddler could have his own film if it was to ever happen.

I recommend reading Hush or TLH. The Riddler, undoubtedly has the highest IQ of all Batman's foes. Cold, aloof, and possessed of a steely wit. The Riddler, unlike many of the other members of Batman's rogues gallery, is more of a cerebral than physical villain. Although he is quite suited for physical combat and often has weapons ready for use, he has probably always been among the least homicidal of the major Bat nemises; indeed, one story showed him lamenting the rise of murderous villains.

Edward's transformation allows him to lose all sense of reality. He becomes completely wrapped up in the evil and criminal behavior which is warping his mind. He needs to be the Riddler to truly express the real Edward Nygma, in turn completely separating himself from any normalcy he once had.

You honestly don't see the psychosis involved with The Riddler?

[The Batman]

Hush and TLH were produced before BF, so they didnt really focus on his psychosis.

I mean, even the BTAS crew admitted they didnt use him much....

[Chomp]

They may not have used much in BTAS, but they hit The Riddler dead on as far as I am concerned.

[Two-Face]

Hush and TLH were produced before BF, so they didnt really focus on his psychosis.


You're wrong Hush was pubilshed in (2004) and LTH was published in (1999) after Batman Forever (1995)

[neobido9999]

Two-Face's opening monologue is great

I 100% agree. It belongs in a different (awesome) movie. The rest is neon coated crap, but that first 3 minutes, ending at "let's start this party with a bang!" were great.

"One man is born a hero, his brother a coward, Babies starve, politicians grow fat. Holy men are martyred, and junkies grow legion. Why? Why, why, why, why, why? Luck!"

[The Batman]

i did mean after. sorry...

[neobido9999]

To me the Riddler should be calm and cool, like a person who thinks they have all the answers

agreed, i imagine him a cross between Kaiser Soze and Half Life's G Man, appearing in the distance, on the fringes of mayhem he's caused

[Two-Face]

You when Two Face cames to Edward's party and Bruce goes to car to put on the suit but how can he wearing rubber suit in the car? I would understand if suit was leather.

[The Guard]

The biggest is two words - ROCK. CLIMBING.

Bruce, in an effort to get laid tells Chase he's going rock climbing this weekend and would like her to come along...All the while Two-Face, supposed crazed killer and all, is on the loose.

Nice to know Batman, despite having INSANE SERIAL KILLERS WANDERING ABOUT, takes his weekends off.

First, Bruce Wayne, in the old days, used to actually date women he liked. WAIT...he STILL DOES in the comics! Second, they were not insane serial killers, they were just insane (And The Riddler didn't exist yet, I don't think). Third, did you think he was going rock climbing at night? Bruce Wayne does tend to fill his daytimes with playboy/diversionary activities.

That movie was NOT the Batman we know who, oh I dont know, made a vow that what happened to his parents would never happen to anyone else...but that comes second to a weekend get-away!

Why wasn't it the Batman we know again? Some more examples, please.

Two-Face was more like Joker 2 than his own character.

Once again...even Nicholson's Joker in BATMAN didn't have this explosive and violent a personality. Tommy Lee Jones played his character as a classic, insane supervillain, within the boundaries of what Two-Face was and always has been, and what the script allowed him to do. He was not channelling The Joker. Laughing as a supervillain does not make one a ripoff of The Joker.

I thought Jim Carrey was a great Riddler even though he'd be a better Joker. I liked having Robin in a Batman movie even though it would have made a little more sense to have Robin be younger.

Why would it have made more sense to have Robin be younger? If anything, it made sense to have him be 18.

Val Kilmer will NEVER be considered Batman to me. The guy was a stiff...literally, he was stiff.

Two Face could have thrown his coin at Val and it would have bounced about 10 feet in the other direction. Also, Val had no facial expressions whatsoever. He looked like he had the glazed over look of just being hit over the head with a hammer. If you are going to be an actor, its a little hard to get into the mind of the acting, when you have no physical mannerisms. Keaton had faical expressions. Everytime he gave a squint or a frown, or the movement of his lips, you knew EXACTLY what he was thinking. He had a readable face...Kilmer does not.

Hello...Bruce Wayne...Batman...

Nicole Kidman's part as Chase is just a recycled rehash of several other psychologists. It was a cardboard cut-out with no entertaining aspects at all. But by far she was the best actor in the film.

Nevermind that everything has been done and that there's nothing wrong with borrowing elements that work, but I'll call your bluff. Tell me about another film where a psychologist helps a brooding superhero with his dark past and his parents. Or anything even close. And if you name something post-1994, I'm going to laugh.

Give me a break. That sounds like a riddle a teacher would give her third grade students. You show me ONE riddle from the comics that is as lame as any of those from BF...show me.

"What you call twins both named William?"

"What's the laziest mountain in the world."

"Where do cows go on a date?"

"How do you keep an idiot waiting?"

"How does a boat show it's affection?"

These are all riddles The Riddler has used before, in just one issue, actually.

[quote]And it has to be from a comic that is from well respectible source material.

Oh. Ok...

"When does a killer not kill?"

Even riddles from BTAS are far superior than anything from BF, and its a kid's show!: "Shall we play the Riddler's game; with meaning changed but word the same? Then find the founder who found fame before he founders in his name." This is probably my favorite from the TV series.

That's all well and good. But it has nothing to do with putting together several riddles to create the name "Mr. E". Which was the point of the riddles in BATMAN FOREVER. Obviously you forgot that to do that, there had to be some thinking involved.

I maybe influenced by Jeph, but let's face it, he put The Riddler on the map as being one of Batman's greatest villains. The Riddler was pretty much a small villain before that.

What's your point?

Not to BF's extent.

Let's talk about BATMAN BEGINS merchandising, shall we?

His personality...he played exactly like Joker before him. It seemed as if he only had one side in the movie...lame.

I'm not going to go over this again. See above for my points on Joker/Two-Face comparisons. And he clearly didn't have just one side, but one side was firmly in control most of the time. You know, the way Two-Face was for years in the comics after he became Two-Face?

Have you forgotten my posts already?

No I haven't. Nor do I believe for a second that you solved those riddles as quickly as you claim to have. How old are you, btw? Because if it's anything under 18, I'm gonna have to not believe your amazing riddle-solving abilities.

Yea, she was a cardboard cut...nothing new, just a rehash of other characters from other movies. It actually felt as if Chase was a character from another film...like she was digitally manipulated into the screen from another film. Boring.[;/quote]

Which other movies are these now? Quick now, specific examples.

[quote]How old are you 12?

Old enough to know when to use a comma.

What's cool is Batman gliding through the air with bats, breaking in from an above window, that Batmobile looking sleak yet different...BF's Batmobiles was just different...and hideous if you ask me. It also seemed totally impractical.

When did I say anything about The Batmobile?

A little? The whole goddamn script was developed by camp and humor.

No, the whole goddam script wasn't.

"Then, it will happen like this. You find Two-Face, and you kill him..."

...cue scene where family falls to their deaths.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v..._on_this/GC.jpg

That's one shot. You forgot the daytime shots. And the parts of Gotham that weren't all neon.

Look, I am glad you like the film...at least someone does. But for me, it wasn't Batman.

Why? All you've come with so far is your ridiculous rock climbing argument.

[P. Cushing]

You show me ONE riddle from the comics that is as lame as any of those from BF...show me.

What letter is 9 inches long?
Y becayse it's one fourth of a yard.

Why is the letter A like a honeysuckle?
Because it's always followed by a "B".

Why is a room full of married couples like an empty room?
Because there isn't a single person in it.

[P. Cushing]

They may not have used much in BTAS, but they hit The Riddler dead on as far as I am concerned.
They decided early on that they wouldn't rely on dodgy riddles, instead focusing on his psyche.

[Vile]

First, Bruce Wayne, in the old days, used to actually date women he liked. WAIT...he STILL DOES in the comics! Second, they were not insane serial killers, they were just insane (And The Riddler didn't exist yet, I don't think). Third, did you think he was going rock climbing at night? Bruce Wayne does tend to fill his daytimes with playboy/diversionary activities.


First off, I've no qualms with Wayne playing the playboy route and dating - My point is, do it IN TOWN.

Second, okay, maybe they arnt serial killers (Though I would question this further, but for the sake of time..) Them 'just being insane' doesnt really make them less than a threat. After all, Two-face had no problem with gunning down Robin's family and almost boiling a man to death with acid...so, what do we got? Insane? Check. Killer? Check. Then again, Two-Face come off about as threatening and frightening as a pair of wet boxers. Between his stupid maniacal laughter and his dancing around it's a wonder he had time to show the Riddler how to PUNCH A GUY.

The quote is, "Look, I'm going rock climbing this weekend", and it sounds to me like a weekend getaway. Now, I could be wrong - in the horrible version of Las Veg-er, Gotham City perhaps it's surrounded by a mountain range...or perhaps he scales the Statue of Liberty thats magically in the harbor...but I doubt it. Now then, since they are leaving town for the weekend are you trying to convince me he's going to fly back to Gotham every night? God, I could only imagine his excuse! "Oh Bruce, how romantic!" "...I gatta go! It's almost dusk! And...well, I have a meeting. A business meeting. With business people. That lasts....all night. I'll be back in the morning! But only for the day! Then I have..another meeting. Did I mention its quite impossible that I'm Batman?"

As to the Riddles used, come ON. "The Riddles all have numbers..and they correspond to...THE ALPHABET!" "Perhaps he's spelling out his name, sir?" "...He's a crafty one, this Riddler."

That whole scene was just tormenting to watch - I would have prefered if when Bruce figured out the numbers would correspond to letters that Alfred would remind him, "But sir! You dont KNOW the alphabet!" Because then Bruce would have to go to the Library and FINALLY WE'D GET SOME DAMN DETECTIVE WORK.

Come on! numbers coresponding to the alphabet?!?! Gimme a break!

"Mr. E Nigma!" *The whindup...and the pitch...* "Edward Nigma!" *And the crowd goes WILD!*

[Chomp]

I'm not going to go over this again. See above for my points on Joker/Two-Face comparisons. And he clearly didn't have just one side, but one side was firmly in control most of the time. You know, the way Two-Face was for years in the comics after he became Two-Face?

Because we all know, when Two-Face doesn't like the results of his coin, he flips it a second time...http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif


No, the whole goddam script wasn't.

"Then, it will happen like this. You find Two-Face, and you kill him..."

...cue scene where family falls to their deaths

Awwwwwww....LAME.

That's all well and good. But it has nothing to do with putting together several riddles to create the name "Mr. E". Which was the point of the riddles in BATMAN FOREVER. Obviously you forgot that to do that, there had to be some thinking involved.

The way Bruce solved them was rediculous.


Let's talk about BATMAN BEGINS merchandising, shall we?


Go ahead...no skin off my back.



Old enough to know when to use a comma.

You should be one to talk...LoL.


That's one shot. You forgot the daytime shots. And the parts of Gotham that weren't all neon.

Most of the scenes took place at night.


Why? All you've come with so far is your ridiculous rock climbing argument.

That wasn't mine, try again.

[The Kid]

I'd put it right up there with Spider-man 2.

I know that angers some of you spiderboys, but really, watch both films back to back, kiss your pet, and tell me you don't think they share something.

SM franchise gets unlimited praise while everyone takes a dump on shoemaker's films, and rightfully so, because certain things are just plain stupid. Bat nipples. Organic webshooters. Your Cliche mustache twirling villians. Parts are great, parts are crap... etc. etc...

If a better spiderman flick had been made before SM1 and 2, everyone would excrete nice big creamy piles on Raimi's light action flicks too. LOL.

Batman forever is a pretty darn good action flick, but not a good enough batman film to many. Just like spiderman's a pretty darn good action flick, but just not a good enough Spiderman film.

my thoughts...

[Captain_Obvious]

I remember wanting to look like Dr. Chase Merdian and realized it would be cool to be a psychologist...

Thanks Batman Forever!

[Infinity9999x]

SM franchise gets unlimited praise while everyone takes a dump on shoemaker's films, and rightfully so, because certain things are just plain stupid. Bat nipples. Organic webshooters.

I think Bat nipples are a bit more stupid then organic webshooters. I see what you're saying about the movies but really the organic webshooters make sence, why did they make then non organic in the 1st place? I mean who's idea was it to go, okay, we'll give the kid spider powers but NOT the big trademark of a spider, it's web, those he'll have to make by himself. It just seems kinda stupid, if they had wanted to show peter's scientific smarts, they could have him make web shooter like appendages that mix chemicals into his web that perhaps make the web do diffrent things. So really they were probably just giving him organic webshooters because non comic people would wonder why he didn't get that power from the spider, it's a little more reasonable then Bat-nipples, which was just weird. Still though I agree with your analogy, because Rami's films were light hearted action flicks.

[Two-Face]

Because we all know, when Two-Face doesn't like the results of his coin, he flips it a second time...


No, you're wrong, in comics he flips his coin once he wouldn't do it again but in Batman Forever he does it so many times he shoots Bruce in the near head. in comics if coin says not to shoot it won't shoot Bruce.


read this from imdb:

"In the movie, there is a scene where Two Face keeps flipping his coin until he gets a result he wants. In the comics, a key element of his split personality is that he unquestioningly accepts the result of a single coin toss concerning any decision he makes."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112462/trivia

[Captain_Obvious]

No, you're wrong, in comics he flips his coin once he wouldn't do it again but in Batman Forever he does it so many times he shoots Bruce in the near head. in comics if coin says not to shoot it won't shoot Bruce.


read this from imdb:

"In the movie, there is a scene where Two Face keeps flipping his coin until he gets a result he wants. In the comics, a key element of his split personality is that he unquestioningly accepts the result of a single coin toss concerning any decision he makes."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112462/trivia

if you noticed his ":rolleyes:" smiley, you'd understand he was being sarcastic :up:

jesus.

[The Batman]

Jeph loeb made the riddler a serious villain?

Someone never watched the 60's Tv show...

[Mack]

I used to really hate this movie, I felt the film was goofy, the vilains were way over the top and Kilmer lacked the intensity or charisma needed for Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not to mention I thought he looked ridiculous under the cowl with his big lips. I watched it again on TBS a few days ago, and I actually liked it more. Jim Carrey's Riddler was a lot like Gorshin's, and if everyone else in the film was serious, he would of been more effective. The best scenes of the movie involved Chris O'Donnell as Dick Grauson, he made a pretty good older Robin, but his character was written as a non-factor and just another person for Batman to rescue at the end of the movie. Kilmer's Batman voice was pretty good, and his fight scenes were better than Keaton's. He was still dull as a board though. The worst acting in the movie was by far Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face, who did a horrific job as what was Two-Face in name only. Overall, I would rate this movie 6/10, it was a fun mindless action film, but the first two Batman films easily blow it out of the water.

[The Caped Knight]

BATMAN FOREVER is not the best BATMAN movie, but it is not BS like batman & robin is. BATMAN FOREVER overall was a good movie compared to b&r.

[The Guard]

I used to really hate this movie, I felt the film was goofy, the vilains were way over the top and Kilmer lacked the intensity or charisma needed for Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not to mention I thought he looked ridiculous under the cowl with his big lips. I watched it again on TBS a few days ago, and I actually liked it more. Jim Carrey's Riddler was a lot like Gorshin's, and if everyone else in the film was serious, he would of been more effective.

Here's the thing. People bash the FOREVER Riddler for not being serious. When was The Riddler ever that serious? He was about the game, always has been, always will be on some level. He was comical about how he operated in BATMAN FOREVER (it was part of his personality), but he was also deadly serious, within the parameters of the world he inhabited. A world of over-the-top costumed heroes and villains, a fictional city, etc. The Riddler was pretty sinister when you really stop and think about it. He was a genius who killed his boss, stole people's most private information, used people to get what he wanted, and he was a freaking stalker to boot. Was he the darkest villain? No. But The Riddler never really was.

The best scenes of the movie involved Chris O'Donnell as Dick Grauson, he made a pretty good older Robin, but his character was written as a non-factor and just another person for Batman to rescue at the end of the movie.

He wasn't a non-factor at all. The themes of vengeance and his parallells with Bruce, as well as his curious, sometimes dark, but driven nature, were done well, and so was the death of his parents. He was a non-factor because he had to be rescued from a supervillain, after making a pretty good choice not to kill another one of them? That makes every Robin story where that happened in the comics obsolete, I guess. And that would tend to exclude some of the best Robin stories there are.

The worst acting in the movie was by far Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face, who did a horrific job as what was Two-Face in name only.

I consider it one of the best performances of the film. Best PERFORMANCES, not PORTRAYALS. For the most part, I hated how Two-Face was portrayed in this film, but Tommy Lee Jones did it very, very well. He gave a LOT to this role. He easily did the most with, arguably, the least to work with out of anyone of the cast (Well, maybe Pat Hingle had less to work with). Read a comic book from that era, or anything before it. Two-Face looked like that. He was/is over the top. He is prone to spontaneous, violent outbursts. The problem is, Tommy Lee Jones' chracter was so over-the-top and so obsessed with the number two that it became ridiculous and campy. He didnt deliver hardly any of his lines badly or with little energy, though. He crafted two very distinct characters for Two-Face. The problem was, he had nothing to work with to begin with.

[Mack]

Here's the thing. People bash the FOREVER Riddler for not being serious. When was The Riddler ever that serious? He was about the game, always has been, always will be on some level. He was comical about how he operated in BATMAN FOREVER (it was part of his personality), but he was also deadly serious, within the parameters of the world he inhabited. A world of over-the-top costumed heroes and villains, a fictional city, etc. The Riddler was pretty sinister when you really stop and think about it. He was a genius who killed his boss, stole people's most private information, used people to get what he wanted, and he was a freaking stalker to boot. Was he the darkest villain? No. But The Riddler never really was.

I'm not bashing Forever's Riddler for not being serious, I'm saying he would of been more effective if the movie were more serious.


He wasn't a non-factor at all. The themes of vengeance and his parallells with Bruce, as well as his curious, sometimes dark, but driven nature, were done well, and so was the death of his parents. He was a non-factor because he had to be rescued from a supervillain, after making a pretty good choice not to kill another one of them? That makes every Robin story where that happened in the comics obsolete, I guess. And that would tend to exclude some of the best Robin stories there are.

Like I said, I thought he was portrayed well, but he hardly helped to save the day or stop any bad guys. The theme of vengeance against Two-Face was unfulfilled because he never got his vengeance against him. I would of been a lot more satisfied if he, not Batman, were the one to stop him at the end.

[The Guard]

I'm not bashing Forever's Riddler for not being serious, I'm saying he would of been more effective if the movie were more serious.

True. And this dual nature of the film is why so many seem to hate it. Parts of it were deadly serious. Parts of it were a circus.

Like I said, I thought he was portrayed well, but he hardly helped to save the day or stop any bad guys.

Except when he saved that girl from God knows how many glo-stick gang glo-sticks. And I guess he did look kinda cool in the Bat-boat. It was his first time out. A trial by fire, so to speak.

The theme of vengeance against Two-Face was unfulfilled because he never got his vengeance against him.

That was the point. Batman wanted better for Dick, and because of his influence, or his support, Dick chose not to kill Two-Face, but to pursue justice. Eventually, while he did not get vengeance, he did find closure when Two-Face died.

I would of been a lot more satisfied if he, not Batman, were the one to stop him at the end.

Stopped Two-Face? Perhaps, but they needed a way to get them out of that situation that didn't involve Robin killing.

[batmaluco]

It think BF was a half-decent Batman Film that can improve with the inclusion of the deleted scenes. We need a directors cut damnit!

[ab38416]

ab38416

[dude love]

Will you ever stop doing that?

[El Payaso]

It think BF was a half-decent Batman Film that can improve with the inclusion of the deleted scenes.

More or less, yes.

[Kevin Roegele]

I'd put it right up there with Spider-man 2.

Batman forever is a pretty darn good action flick, but not a good enough batman film to many. Just like spiderman's a pretty darn good action flick, but just not a good enough Spiderman film.

my thoughts...

And good ones they are.

One of the main reasons Forever gets so much criticism on these boards is because many fans don't think it's serious enough, and serious means quality in their eyes. Such a lowbrow conceit, but there you have it.

[Parker]

I would have found the film more tolerable if it weren't for the batnipples.

[captain_jimbo]

It's an okay film, but not a great Batman film. I recently watched it again, and it actually surprised me because it's all so campy and over the top, especially from the villains.

...And then came Batman & Robin. F**k me! :eek:

[Proximo]

....

[Bat Attack]

Batman Forever has been growing on me recentley. I've been enjoying it much more than I used to. Probably because I'm not such a tight ass about Batman being dark or anything anymore. It's just a fun and enjoyable movie that I can watch all the way through. :up::up:

[CConn]

I think it's "decent". And sorta necessary in showing that lighter side of Batman. Obviously, B&R went way, way too far with it, but BF was sort of a happy medium between the campy, over-the-top comics, and the darker, more enjoyable version of Batman.

[Kevin Roegele]

Batman Forever is only superficially colourful. The themes and characters are all dark, they're a bunch of tortured obsessives. I almost feel Schumacher is trying to disguise the darkness of the screenplay with lights on the surface, knowing most people will only take notice of that.

Look at the ending - Nygma wanted to be Bruce Wayne the whole time, and by the end he gets his wish (he believes he is Bruce after sucking his brain waves) - and everything that comes with it, i.e. Batman. Thus he completely loses any sanity and ends up in a shadowy cell in a straight jacket. That's as dark as anything has been in the Batman movies.

[Gossip Gerty]

Batman Forever is only superficially colourful. The themes and characters are all dark, they're a bunch of tortured obsessives. I almost feel Schumacher is trying to disguise the darkness of the screenplay with lights on the surface, knowing most people will only take notice of that.

Look at the ending - Nygma wanted to be Bruce Wayne the whole time, and by the end he gets his wish (he believes he is Bruce after sucking his brain waves) - and everything that comes with it, i.e. Batman. Thus he completely loses any sanity and ends up in a shadowy cell in a straight jacket. That's as dark as anything has been in the Batman movies.

I totally agree with you, 100%!

[Anita18]

I thought it was decently fun. It was the first Batman movie I enjoyed - both of Burton's movies scared me to death as a kid. It was like an easy appetizer to Batman fandom.

But yeah, it doesn't hold a candle to BB or even the Burton movies now that I'm older and I don't get scared of them. (As much...)

[The Chairman]

BF shows potential in a lot of scenes, and the basic plot elements and themes dealt within the film are really great, but the way they're executed is extremely poor. If they kept the themes and plot of the film the same but darkened the overall tone of it, it would've been awesome.

[Thot]

Batman Forever was great for the most part, very much a "comic book" movie. It had some over the top campiness that hurt it a bit, but overall very enjoyable. I believe there is room for the gritty, dark world of Begins and the more colorful, lighter world of Forever. When Nolan is finished, I wouldn't mind seeing another installment along the same lines, sans the camp and nipples of course!

[DCW]

I actually love Batman Forever. IMO, I can't stress that enough, I like it much more than Batman Returns. Sure I appreciate some parts in Returns but overall I just enjoy Forever much more. Returns is too dark and strange for me. The only thing that I really hate in Forever is the scene when Dick Grayson is doing the laundry with Alfred. That move where he drys his socks with his toes or whatever always drives me nuts. Other things do bother me a little: neon, nipples on the suits, and "I'll Get Drive Through". but not enough to detour me from enjoying the film. I love this movie and enjoy it everytime I watch it.

Oh, and Elliot Goldenthal is no Danny Elfman when it comes to Batman, but I love the score for this movie as well.

[Kevin Roegele]

I love Forever. I've seen it more times than any other movie (not that it's my it's not my favourite).

[Eastwood]

Batman forever was a good film it was still kind of dark it was defintley better than batman and robin and val kilmer was a pertty good batman i liked it

[cryptic name]

Jeph loeb made the riddler a serious villain?

Someone never watched the 60's Tv show...

none of the villains were serious in the 60's TV show :huh:

[Damiean Dark]

I still think if you take BF and B&R as a big budget version of the 60s camp batman it goes down a whole lot better and they are quite enjoyable.

[Vile]

Or you can take them for what they are and simply accept that fact that they are horrible movies!

=)

[Kevin Roegele]

none of the villains were serious in the 60's TV show :huh:

Frank Gorshin's Riddler was serious enough to be in a serious movie, if that makes sense. He's on the same level as Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin.

[The Caped Knight]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0e/Batmanforeverdvd.jpg
Unlike Looney Clooney, Kilmer looked and was overall a much better BATMAN

[Damiean Dark]

That suit looks better then the Batman Begins suit and much more flexible.

[Agentsands77]

There was a good film inside BATMAN FOREVER (the basic concepts are pretty decent), but it's buried beneath a lot of crud. Not the least of which is the absolutely dreadful visual style.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

The beginning action sequence with the bank vault is fantastic, though not something I'd attribute Two-Face with committing (The only Two-Face I'm familiar with is the TLH and Dark Victory incarnations though).

The Red Book subplot held a ton of potential and could have been fleshed out more.

Even though I find it subpar story-wise to Burton's flicks, I still enjoy watching it here and there. B&R is a different story though.

[GREEN =w= DAY]

only good thing about BF is Val Kilmer. i honestly believe that he was a much better Batman/Bruce than Keaton (don't get me wrong, i LOVE Keaton). Kilmer is my second fav Batman right after Bale.

[Kevin Roegele]

Even though I find it subpar story-wise to Burton's flicks, I still enjoy watching it here and there. B&R is a different story though.

I have to disagree, story-wise Forever is superior to Burton's movies. THink about it; what is the story of Batman? Or Batman Returns? Not very much at all. Both simply introduce their characters into the arean of Gotham and then let them interact until the climax. I love both films, but storyline has never been Burton's strong point (as Daniel Waters, who wrote Returns says, Burton was not interested in anything to do with the plot).

Forever has a fantastic plot. Batman confronts his duality. He finds out exactly why he has two personalities, and finally makes a distinction between them. Everything in the movie ties into this. You have Dick Grayson, who Bruce must decide whether to allow to follow his path. You have Chase Meridian (whose name means 'persue a dividing line'), who helps Bruce unlock the secrets of his identity. You have Two-Face, which is self-explanatory.
And finally the Riddler....and I love this part of the movie....finally achieves his goal of becoming his idol, Bruce Wayne, at the end - and everything that comes with it. Thus he ends up in Arkham Asylum.

All this in a screenplay which doesn't waste a single scene and expertly juggles five characters, and leads to a perfect, logical and symbollic climax.

Look beyond the neon lights and the silly antics of Jones and Carrey and Forever is a great story. Better yet, read the novelisation.

[Bat Attack]

I love the shot in Forever when the Batmobile is roaring down the street when Batman is going to meet Chase on the GCPD rooftop. That seemed like it was right out of the comic. :up:

[Two-Face]

It's shame that Commish Gordon was acting stupid "what's going on? I saw the signal" Batman replies "false alarm" Chase: "Are you sure?" Yep that's out from the comics!

[Bat Attack]

I didn't mean to make it sound like I was referring to the dialouge. I meant the cinematography was comic-like. Sorry.

[Mr. Socko]

Overall, I liked Forever.

[Redwoods Wolf]

I thought Forever was good when I was younger. Then I re-watched it recently and was really disappointed. (The change of theme music was a big minus factor) Kilmer tries, but he never pulls off a violent darkness. The Batmobile looked awful...and Robin was completely unnecessary.
I like the first sequence with Batman trying to capture Two-Face. But that's about it.

[Bat Attack]

Even though it might not have fit, I think if they'd used the elfman score the movie would have been a bit better. It made the movie look better in the trailer atleast.

[Redwoods Wolf]

Batman Forever is only superficially colourful. The themes and characters are all dark, they're a bunch of tortured obsessives. I almost feel Schumacher is trying to disguise the darkness of the screenplay with lights on the surface, knowing most people will only take notice of that.

Look at the ending - Nygma wanted to be Bruce Wayne the whole time, and by the end he gets his wish (he believes he is Bruce after sucking his brain waves) - and everything that comes with it, i.e. Batman. Thus he completely loses any sanity and ends up in a shadowy cell in a straight jacket. That's as dark as anything has been in the Batman movies.

These are some points I hadn't considered. VERY good points, too...
I like being made to think. :up:

[Redwoods Wolf]

Even though it might not have fit, I think if they'd used the elfman score the movie would have been a bit better. It made the movie look better in the trailer atleast.
I think it would have, at least the more "actiony" part of the score, especially when Batman's driving. It's a perfect compliment, IMO.

[Mr. Socko]

I guess I'm the only one that liked Schumacher's Batman march.

[Nepenthes]

It's not an decent movie at all. From both a fan and a non-fan perspective...it's complete rubbish.

[Bat Attack]

I didn't care for the Batman Forever or Batman & Robin score at all. The "Bwaaaaaa bwa bwa bwaaaa bwa bwa bwa!" just sounds annoying to me. It almost sounds sarcastic.

[Cyrusbales]

whilst the film does have some good moments and potential, it's generally poor, especially in comparison to burton's work. I have seen this film a lot due to it being the only video that worked when I was ill a few times, (and her alibi) but would rather sit down and watch batman or batman return :)

[I Am The Knight]

I like it, it's one of those films I saw a lot as a kid.

[Travis K]

it sucked

[Nepenthes]

anal fluid

[Rockbottom]

I actually like Forever, i never noticed the nipples untill someone pointed it out, or the drive threw line (which is strange considering when i was growing up i used to watch BF once or twice everyday without fail almost for like 3 years). I know it has some real big flaws but i still thinks its entertaining and maybe it isnt 100% faithful, but the way i see it, you dont have to be faithful to make a great movie (im not saying BF is great here because it isnt).

Overall I loved it as a kid, and like it now.

[El Payaso]

I liked it back in 1995 in a 'it's ok' kind of way. Now I watch it and it's not that good but I don't hate it. I still can enjoy it.

[batmaluco]

BF was a descent movie.
I mean, it's still enjoyable, but in comparison with Burton's films it is a huge step down, imo.

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is 276498

[DieSmiling]

I hadn't watched the movie in awhile, but when I watched it last night, I started thinking...

It's really a very good Batman movie. It has alot of flaws, sure, but at the end of the day it's a very entertaining movie that captures the spirit of Batman very well. Outisde of Batman Begins, its the best characterization of Batman/Bruce Wayne by far, I really like the psychology of the character and his interaction with Chase is better than his interaction with any other Batman love interest. The Robin storyline is handled pretty well. And whether you hate his overacting or not, Jim Carrey does the Riddler great justice.

The only real lowlight of the movie to be is Tommy Lee Jones getting two face all wrong, and the stupid neon light Gotham. And that ridiculous chase scene where Batman drives up a wall. Other than that, it's really quite good... It's a shame that it often gets coupled up with Batman and Robin as Schumaker's horrible Bat-movies, because it's really LIGHTYEARS better than B&R.

Anyone else think Batman Forever is underrated?

[The Caped Knight]

I still love Elliot Goldenthal Batman's march in Batman Forever

Pexxk6tMKLQ
7U-e-nw-BxI
WhTSz_cT2pY
kherbTcwIkU

ycOLPF5m2Cg

[LuisTX85]

I hadn't watched the movie in awhile, but when I watched it last night, I started thinking...

It's really a very good Batman movie. It has alot of flaws, sure, but at the end of the day it's a very entertaining movie that captures the spirit of Batman very well. Outisde of Batman Begins, its the best characterization of Batman/Bruce Wayne by far, I really like the psychology of the character and his interaction with Chase is better than his interaction with any other Batman love interest. The Robin storyline is handled pretty well. And whether you hate his overacting or not, Jim Carrey does the Riddler great justice.

The only real lowlight of the movie to be is Tommy Lee Jones getting two face all wrong, and the stupid neon light Gotham. And that ridiculous chase scene where Batman drives up a wall. Other than that, it's really quite good... It's a shame that it often gets coupled up with Batman and Robin as Schumaker's horrible Bat-movies, because it's really LIGHTYEARS better than B&R.

Anyone else think Batman Forever is underrated?

Agreed 99%(I liked the chase-scene including the wall drive-up.....kinda),I always thought/I do and will always think BF is underrated!!

Although I prefer B'89/Returns/BB&TDK,I sure think it's great for the most part and prefer it over B:TM(60's)and B&R(which I actually like some of it cause it's like a weird comic-issue or animated episode come to life.....But indeed the weakest since the 60's show&movie)!!

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I don't think it's under rated... so much as now simply over shadowed.

It did GREAT business at the box office and got pretty moderate reviews at the time. Nowadays fans generally recognise it as a decent film that got a lot right and alot wrong.

Its Batman circa 1995... It has it's place in bat-history but unfortunately is tainted by its sequel.

[LuisTX85]

True,sad but true!!

[Ponyboy]

I enjoy Batman Forever to a certain degree, yes. Tommy lee Jones was a huuuuuuuge let down. I just get the feeling that he wasnt really interested in figuring out the character after what he repeatedly said in interviews about just doing it "for his kid." Not that the script really delved into Harvey that much. I just wish he hadn't been thrown away by the end of the film is all. Anyway... I don't take it very seriously as an actual Batman film (like B&R) but there are times when I enjoy watching bits of it. Mostly for nostalgia, I think.

PS... I should add that it's one of the very few films I've seen at the cinema... TWICE.

[The Caped Knight]

Batman Forever will always have special place in my heart. I still greatly enjoy the film despite Tommy lee Jones outrageous portrayal as Two-Face. The film is still an enjoyable film with a great score soundtrack IMO, Val looked great as Batman/Bruce Wayne much more than Keaton did, Chris was much better as Robin/Dick Grayson in this film than B&R, I loved the re-designed Batcave, Batmobile, Batwing and Batboat. Jim Carey was great as The Riddler and you could tell he was attempting to pay homage to Frank Gorshin in his portrayal of the character .

Nicole Kidman was super hot and sexy as Dr. Chase Meridian. The film itself is still darker than B&R, but it also more kid friendly due to the over the top dark atmosphere and grossness that was in Batman Returns particularly Tim burton's gothic version of The Penguin among other things . Still Batman Forever was a much more faithful version than B&R, Furthermore I noticed that because the lighting was darker in scenes featuring Batman (the accursed Bat-nipples on the batsuit in the first costume is not as noticeable as it is in B&R) The themes dealt in Batman Forever were Destiny, Duality, Revenge, Obsession , Partners etc..

[Elevator Man]

I used to be able to enjoy this for the popcorn movie that it is. It's kind of hard now. Especially with the movie not aging well at all. And some Comic book movies have done better with being popcorn movies than BF have. But I still love Goldenthal's score and can't wait fo La La Land to release it in October. Definitely the highlight of BF, imo.

[Mister Meddle]

Too bad that they deleted these two scenes. I guess Schumacher was afraid that it would give some children nightmares.

The Arkham Asylum opener.

RiJJra56NKQ

Bruce confronts his worst nightmare.

I3HwRnU4ryM

[Two-Face]

Batman Forever will always have special place in my heart. I still greatly enjoy the film despite Tommy lee Jones outrageous portrayal as Two-Face. The film is still an enjoyable film with a great score soundtrack IMO, Val looked great as Batman/Bruce Wayne much more than Keaton did, Chris was much better as Robin/Dick Grayson in this film than B&R, I loved the re-designed Batcave, Batmobile, Batwing and Batboat. Jim Carey was great as The Riddler and you could tell he was attempting to pay homage to Frank Gorshin in his portrayal of the character .

Nicole Kidman was super hot and sexy as Dr. Chase Meridian. The film itself is still darker than B&R, but it also more kid friendly due to the over the top dark atmosphere and grossness that was in Batman Returns particularly Tim burton's gothic version of The Penguin among other things . Still Batman Forever was a much more faithful version than B&R, Furthermore I noticed that because the lighting was darker in scenes featuring Batman (the accursed Bat-nipples on the batsuit in the first costume is not as noticeable as it is in B&R) The themes dealt in Batman Forever were Destiny, Duality, Revenge, Obsession , Partners etc..




I didn't mind the nipples much as seeing Batman's ass on the screen. I actually like Forever for what it is I prefer Kidman over Michelle P. Kidman was way hotter in the movie. Even thiough They had adult Robin I liked his origin and making Two-Face responsible for Dick's parents. Chris O'Donnell should ben Nightwing yoiu can't do that without explaining his past. Two-Face was forgotten and he was terrible Two-Face but that's TLJ's fault.

[Mister Meddle]

I didn't mind the nipples much as seeing Batman's ass on the screen. I actually like Forever for what it is I prefer Kidman over Michelle P. Kidman was way hotter in the movie. Even thiough They had adult Robin I liked his origin and making Two-Face responsible for Dick's parents. Chris O'Donnell should ben Nightwing yoiu can't do that without explaining his past. Two-Face was forgotten and he was terrible Two-Face but that's TLJ's fault.

That's not true. I still believe Tommy Lee Jones was a great choice but it's not his fault that the character sucked. All what Jones did was play the type of character that Schumacher wanted for his film.

[Two-Face]

That's not true. I still believe Tommy Lee Jones was a great choice but it's not his fault that the character sucked. All what Jones did was play the type of character that Schumacher wanted for his film.

Oh no I forgotten to add "not". I blame the writer & the director here. TLJ is a great actor he's one of my favourite actor.

[Mister Meddle]

Oh no I forgotten to add "not". I blame the writer & the director here. TLJ is a great actor he's one of my favourite actor.
Ah okay lol. No worries.

[Marx]

Jim Carrey's Riddler was THE saving grace of this movie. :up:

[The Caped Knight]

TLJ is a great actor and I don't blame him one bit for his portrayal as Two-Face, he did the best he could with the material given too him . I blame the writers . If Two-Face was written similar to how he was in BTAS I believe TLJ would've done true justice to the role.

[Mister Meddle]

TLJ is a great actor and I don't blame him one bit for his portrayal as Two-Face, he did the best he could with the material given too him . I blame the writers . If Two-Face was written similar to how he was in BTAS I believe TLJ would've done true justice to the role.

This.

[The Caped Knight]

IMO Batman Forever gave us one of the most memorable pop music video soundtracks U2's Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me
n8FAO2-cHaE

[Mister Meddle]

Smash It Up by the Offspring is another great song. Grayson looked like a badass driving the Batmobile with that song playing in the background.

The song picks up at about the 50 second mark.

cByeCBj74Sg

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I mean... I was 5 when this movie came out and it was the first Batman movie/fever I got to really experience.

I still remember standing in line to see it. Nostalgia will never allow me to hate or dismiss it.

[Chris Wallace]

I don't think it's under rated... so much as now simply over shadowed.

It did GREAT business at the box office and got pretty moderate reviews at the time. Nowadays fans generally recognise it as a decent film that got a lot right and alot wrong.

Its Batman circa 1995... It has it's place in bat-history but unfortunately is tainted by its sequel.

I think it's the only movie to ever be punished by fans for its follow-up.

[thebatandthecat]

This was the first Batman movie that I saw at the theater! I will always remember that & I still have all four of the "glass" mugs from McDonalds and I love those. There are parts of this movie that I think are really great and parts that are terrible...however the worst part of this movie isn't as bad as the best part of B&R! I think if they toned down the florescent Gotham & glow-in-the-dark gangs & revamped Two-Face then it could have been a really great movie! I don't think I even noticed the Bat-Niples as a kid. I think they did a great job with Bruce being haunted by the memories of his past, Riddler was a great character & I always enjoyed him using his computer to develop his alter ego! Plus I love the "How's my mole?" line! I also thought Chris O'Donnell was a great Robin...he could have been a bit younger but still I think his age made more sense in a real life senario. Over all its a fun movie but not an edge of your seat Burton/Nolan Batman.

[ALP]

I really like this movie. Even the neon statue filled Gotham was decent, some of the shots of Schumacher's Gotham I love. The problem is that Schumacher amplified all the bad parts when he made the sequel. But Kilmer was great and I really liked the suit. Joel was also the first to give us Wayne Enterprise and what is still the best screen portrayal of Arkham asylum. I also liked(but not loved) the batmobile and Chase Meridian was decent. And Jim Carrey was terrific even if his riddles matched up to very little meaning... just telling us his name, meh. While I love Robin, I thought Chris O'Donnell was too old. Bruce Wayne did not need to adopt a grown man. But Tommy Lee Jones was definitely the worst part of this movie which is so strange because he is arguably the best actor featured in this movie. He plays it serious in every single film I can think of except this one. Even in a comedy like Men In Black he plays the straight man who refuses to even crack a smile. But here he acts like a bumbling buffoon. Had he played it serious it would have made for an overall better film and he would have been a great foil to the goofy Riddler.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

I think that if you took away the neon, his Gothan wouldn't look too bad. But, wouldn't you expect a city rife with corruption to look more glitzy than somber?

[thebatandthecat]

But Tommy Lee Jones was definitely the worst part of this movie which is so strange because he is arguably the best actor featured in this movie. He plays it serious in every single film I can think of except this one. Even in a comedy like Men In Black he plays the straight man who refuses to even crack a smile. But here he acts like a bumbling buffoon. Had he played it serious it would have made for an overall better film and he would have been a great foil to the goofy Riddler.

He is much better once we get to the climax of the film...I thought his scenes with Robin on the "holy rusted metal" flying rock were great and his last few scenes with Batman were pretty good too....otherwise he was a waste! However he probably would have made a great Joker! haha

[El Payaso]

That's not true. I still believe Tommy Lee Jones was a great choice but it's not his fault that the character sucked. All what Jones did was play the type of character that Schumacher wanted for his film.

And that is exactly why he is to blame.

He had won an Oscar, he could - and should - have said, excuse me but if you're making me act like a unfunny clown, then I'll have to quit. I mean, Keaton didn't have Jones status and he walked before doing something unworthy.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

O'Donnel looked amazing in the Robin suit, the shot of him on the rocks with his cape billowing in the wind is fricking priceless, one of my favorite shots and images from the whole film.

[thebatandthecat]

O'Donnel looked amazing in the Robin suit, the shot of him on the rocks with his cape billowing in the wind is fricking priceless, one of my favorite shots and images from the whole film.

Agreed!

[ALP]

I think that if you took away the neon, his Gothan wouldn't look too bad. But, wouldn't you expect a city rife with corruption to look more glitzy than somber?

Yep, it was like a souped up Vegas.

I kinda like the Gotham in BF, or at least parts of it. It was just too much in B&R, Schumacher amplified all the bad things about it.

[Mister Meddle]

And that is exactly why he is to blame.

He had won an Oscar, he could - and should - have said, excuse me but if you're making me act like a unfunny clown, then I'll have to quit. I mean, Keaton didn't have Jones status and he walked before doing something unworthy.

Do you think Two Face could've been a great villain if Schumacher had someone else play the role?

[El Payaso]

Do you think Two Face could've been a great villain if Schumacher had someone else play the role?

Ruining Two-Face was a team effort. I said Jones was to blame but not only Jones.

Now, I've heard of actors - Edward Norton comes to mind - that refuse to do things unless there's some improvement over the script. I think Jonmes was in position of having asked more than pure cackling. When he's with the Riddler the situation for Jones as an actor is embarassing. I'm sure Riddler on paper was also destined to be another cackling clown, but Jim Carrey brought some other elements.

[Marx]

Chris O' Donnell did look good in the suit. I just wish the script would have been better.

As far as Two-Face goes, he was a disgrace.

[Mister Meddle]

I don't know about that. Usually I blame the person that's in charge rather than the one that's taking orders. Even if someone else played the role, Two Face would've been just as bad not because of the actor but because of Schumacher's approach. Either way I'm sure we both can agree that the character was lousy in this movie.

[GothamAlleys]

Jones is a terrific actor, its not his fault. He had his line, he was instructed to cackle and act like a goofy hyperenergetic clown. Still, I found his take interesting and fun. Its riddler, Batman and almost everything else that I have a problem with

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TTvecFYIhZI/AAAAAAAAA8I/pEi4kkNUQi4/s1600/tfblow.png

[El Payaso]

Jones is a terrific actor, its not his fault. He had his line, he was instructed to cackle and act like a goofy hyperenergetic clown.

I work for someone. He tells me to do something humilliating. That's where I say no. If I don't then it's my fault too.

[ALP]

I can't think of a single other series where the lead character changes its actor three films in a row. BR, BF, B&R. The Bond films at least do several films with the same actor before getting a new one. It's a recipe for failure. Does anyone know why Kilmer did not return for B&R? Was he just being smart? Granted, he still would not have made the film anymore tolerable.

[akfj]

Schumacher and Kilmer did not get along while filming Batman Forever. I think that had a lot to do with it.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Ya I read a few placed that Val and Joel had many arguments on the set as well as the rumor that Kilmer couldn't stand Jim Carrey. Val tried to clear up that rumor on the BF dvd extras but I'm not sure if I buy it.

[El Payaso]

Ya I read a few placed that Val and Joel had many arguments on the set as well as the rumor that Kilmer couldn't stand Jim Carrey. Val tried to clear up that rumor on the BF dvd extras but I'm not sure if I buy it.

In fact Val said so in "Inside of the Actors Studio." I mean, that him and Jim Carrey got along.

[GothamAlleys]

Does anyone know why Kilmer did not return for B&R?

Scroll down to B&R - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2011/01/batman-in-movies-part-ii-val-kilmer.html

I work for someone. He tells me to do something humilliating. That's where I say no. If I don't then it's my fault too.

But its not humiliating. Jones wasnt a comic book fan, he wasnt familiar with Two Face. All he knew is that hes gonna be playing a clownish villain in a juvenile comic book movie. He read the script, he was friends wityh Schumacher, he took the part and agreed to play what was in the script and what Joel wanted

[El Payaso]

But its not humiliating. Jones wasnt a comic book fan, he wasnt familiar with Two Face. All he knew is that hes gonna be playing a clownish villain in a juvenile comic book movie. He read the script, he was friends wityh Schumacher, he took the part and agreed to play what was in the script and what Joel wanted

When you're in a long scene with your villiain-partner and all you do for 5 minuites is growling, grunting, mumbling and cackling while the other one does all the talking, that is humilliating for any actor. Unless your character is a mute, which is not the case. That happened - I mean, that's what he allowed to happen - to Jones in every scene (except the first one), including the climax, where all he did was jumping "and me... AaaaaaAAAaaand ME!" and cackle cackle cackle while Carrey ate the whole scene up.

Now, Jones not being a comic book fan doesn't exclude him from the responsibility of researching about what you're going to do. If you don't - and you should with that salary - then it is - once again - your fault. Actors who act in a book-based movie must read the book, right? Once at least.

Nothing justifies that level of poor acting. Specially if you've been an Oscar winner recently. There are lots of directors who could want you to do something just for the laughs or just to have your famous name on the marquee. But it's you, first and foremost, are the one who should safeguard your own career. And Jones didn't. His fault.

[GothamAlleys]

But again, I think Jones did very well with acting because he sold me that hes an insane clown right away, its just that the character was written and designed this way for the movie. He was merely acting out the version of the character that has been envisioned by the filmmakers. he delivered what they want.

At the same time I dont see much difference between Jones' Two-Face and Jones' character in Undersiege

[El Payaso]

But again, I think Jones did very well with acting because he sold me that hes an insane clown right away, its just that the character was written and designed this way for the movie. He was merely acting out the version of the character that has been envisioned by the filmmakers. he delivered what they want.

That's being effective, or obedient. Not good.

And what he did was not very well, not even as insane clown. Even as insane clown that was cheap and forgettable. And we have to consider the true nature pof the character. Because is he was offered Two-Face and he didn't know who he was and he didn't even research a little about it, then it is hios fault.

And, as I said before, if he's told to make the fool oput of himself, and he obeys, well... that's not only Schumacher's fault.

At the same time I dont see much difference between Jones' Two-Face and Jones' character in Undersiege

I haven't seen Undersiege but it's very possible that Jones has delivered two terrible acting pieces in his career.

[Thebumwhowalks]

That happened - I mean, that's what he allowed to happen - to Jones in every scene (except the first one), including the climax, where all he did was jumping "and me... AaaaaaAAAaaand ME!" and cackle cackle cackle while Carrey ate the whole scene up.



This is an exageration, he has scenes throughout the movie where he has Two-Face style dialogue(in a similar style to the opening scene).
He's good in the scene where Carrey appears at his HQ.
He plays the robbery at Nygma Tech pretty straight when the scene opens, it's only when Batman appears that he gets excited and goes into clown mode.
He has the mix of dialogue and clowning again in the circus sequence, and is not too bad.
and plays it dead straight when he gets the drop on Robin.

I agree that he was pretty useless in the grand finale, but that was more Carrey's moment, he does get his own finale afterwards though.

In the scenes where he is ott cackling though, aye, it can be a bit too much, the scene where he is watching the secret id reveal for instance he goes into mugging overdrive, but the 'Say it..' 'You're a genius.' exchange at the end between him and Carrey was funny.

For the kind of Batman movie it is, a mix of serious and ott fun done in the colourful style of the 50s comics(which was intentional according to Schumacher on the dvd extras), he was not as bad a Two-Face as folk make out.

[Two-Face]

Jones isn't terrible actor his Two-Face shouldn't be blamed on him only it's the writer & director's fault. If Jones was in TDK he would been great as TF.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Jones isn't terrible actor his Two-Face shouldn't be blamed on him only it's the writer & director's fault. If Jones was in TDK he would been great as TF.

I felt he was pretty good in the beginning when he was giving his "waiting on the bat to save you" speech to the security guard. The shot of the coin flipping with the Bat Signal in the background was great too. Then we got to ZIPPITY DOO-DAH!

wat. Mood whiplash tiem.

[El Payaso]

This is an exageration, he has scenes throughout the movie where he has Two-Face style dialogue(in a similar style to the opening scene).
He's good in the scene where Carrey appears at his HQ.
He plays the robbery at Nygma Tech pretty straight when the scene opens, it's only when Batman appears that he gets excited and goes into clown mode.
He has the mix of dialogue and clowning again in the circus sequence, and is not too bad.
and plays it dead straight when he gets the drop on Robin.

I agree that he was pretty useless in the grand finale, but that was more Carrey's moment, he does get his own finale afterwards though.

In the scenes where he is ott cackling though, aye, it can be a bit too much, the scene where he is watching the secret id reveal for instance he goes into mugging overdrive, but the 'Say it..' 'You're a genius.' exchange at the end between him and Carrey was funny.

For the kind of Batman movie it is, a mix of serious and ott fun done in the colourful style of the 50s comics(which was intentional according to Schumacher on the dvd extras), he was not as bad a Two-Face as folk make out.

Okay. Let's say what you say is truie: Jones did very well as Two-Face.

If he did well, then both the director and the actor are to be congratulated. If he did bad, then it's the same.

That said, oh boy how much he sucked as Two-Face!



Jones isn't terrible actor his Two-Face shouldn't be blamed on him only it's the writer & director's fault. If Jones was in TDK he would been great as TF.

I agree. I'm saying exactly that: Neither Schumacher nor Jones alone should be blamed for Two-Face. Both are responsible.

[Thebumwhowalks]

Okay. Let's say what you say is truie: Jones did very well as Two-Face.

If he did well, then both the director and the actor are to be congratulated. If he did bad, then it's the same.

That said, oh boy how much he sucked as Two-Face!



Where did I say he did very well as Two-Face?

All I said was that he was not as bad as folk make out, especially considering that Schumacher was aiming for the more colourful era of the 50s comics.

[El Payaso]

Where did I say he did very well as Two-Face?

All I said was that he was not as bad as folk make out, especially considering that Schumacher was aiming for the more colourful era of the 50s comics.

And I'm saying that in both cases, Schumacher shares part of the credit/blame.

[RolandDaggett]

I've always liked Batman Forever. The only major gripes I have with it are:

1. Bat nipples
2. Two-Face acting like the Joker
3. No Elfman Batman theme
4. Neon Gotham
5. Butt shot

[El Payaso]

I've always liked Batman Forever. The only major gripes I have with it are:

1. Bat nipples
2. Two-Face acting like the Joker
3. No Elfman Batman theme
4. Neon Gotham
5. Butt shot

I swear, that alone can destroy a movie.

[Two-Face]

Yeah Totally why Schumacher didn't cut that butt shot out. :doh:

[GothamAlleys]

Its not as bad as the metal phallus on Bane's chest

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eFFTF2MlZ-0/TVS5BrTjjdI/AAAAAAAABRA/BtNw_Mui51c/s1600/B-2.png

[El Payaso]

Yeah Totally why Schumacher didn't cut that butt shot out. :doh:

Real question is: why shooting that in the very first place???

[Rockbottom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn5ftuJOTew

This Ad for the game is really weird, but strangely good and interesting actually.

[ALP]

I swear, that alone can destroy a movie.

Yeah I just don't understand why.:doh:

A shot of Batman's rubber ass. Moments like those definitely destroy the movie. :dry:

Its not as bad as the metal phallus on Bane's chest

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eFFTF2MlZ-0/TVS5BrTjjdI/AAAAAAAABRA/BtNw_Mui51c/s1600/B-2.png

When I thought it could get no worse. Did you really have to point that out? I had to look up a high res pic to know that my eyes weren't playing tricks on me. But alas, it's true:(

[Batman4ever]

I thought Jim Carrey was a comic Riddler. He should have had a little more backbone.

[The Batkilt]

In fact Val said so in "Inside of the Actors Studio." I mean, that him and Jim Carrey got along.

Yeah, it seemed to be Joel Schumacher not getting on with Val Kilmer and Tommy Lee Jones from comments Joel made at the time.

I'm still gutted that the director's cut was never released on DVD/Blu-Ray. I've got the Alien/Aliens boxset, which has director's cuts as extras for some films. I'd have liked to have seen Joel's original vision for the film.

[BrollySupersj]

Batman Forever is my third favorite after 89 and Returns. I like the fantasy element it has, definitely has a comic book feeling. I also loved Tommy Lee Jones as Two Face.

[Chris Wallace]

Yeah Totally why Schumacher didn't cut that butt shot out. :doh:

He obviously wanted it. BF only had one. B & R had 3.

[BrollySupersj]

He obviously wanted it. BF only had one. B & R had 3.

Hey at least one of them was a hot female ass.:awesome:

[Chris Wallace]

I like the costume designs-nipples aside. Especially Robin's.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/Robin_-_Chris_ODonnell.jpgKilmer couldhave benefitted from a wraparound cape and perhaps a less glossy finish, but overall not bad.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/val-kilmer.jpghttp://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss335/soophelia/Other%20TV%20and%20Movie%20Pictures/Batman_Forever.jpg
I like what Riddler's wearing when we first meet him but it just kinda goes downhill from there.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/the6cow6god6/fun%20pix/theriddlerakajimcarrey.jpg
Two-Face; good concept, execution came up short. I get that they didn't want him looking too scary in the wake of Burton's Penguin. But they went too far the other way. But it often happens in the comics as well; he looks more mutated than scarred. A little less flambuoyant and it would've been fine.
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w273/Grindhouse300/twoface3.jpghttp://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv195/havok5/p-two-face.jpg

[Doctor Jones]

Yeah, I like Batman and Robin's suits in this film. Especially Robin's.

[ALP]

Robin's cod piece is ridiculously large. Add that to the fact that Schumacher had Chris O'Donnell pierce his ears and wear earrings for this movie I think we come to a certain conclusion lol

But speaking seriously, I didn't like the musculature, there was just way too much. I did overall like Kilmer's first suit though.

[Chris Wallace]

Hey at least one of them was a hot female ass.:awesome:

Female? Yes. Hot? Debatable.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Killers suit wasn't bad at all but the musculature of the chest and abs was a little too much

[GothamAlleys]

I thought without the yellow belt the yellow oval didnt fit in aesthetically. It was a good color balance with yellow belt. I also didnt like the placement of the cape and what they did with the emblem

[BrollySupersj]

Ya know, thinking of Batman Forever got me to remembering all the different toys that the movie had. But I can't remember if there was ever a toy that was just the regular batsuit. Was there? It seems like every single one was different colors and had different gimmicks.

[Chris Wallace]

I saw toys in the Sonar Batsuit but not the regular one. Not even in the WB store.

[Chris Wallace]

Robin's cod piece is ridiculously large. Add that to the fact that Schumacher had Chris O'Donnell pierce his ears and wear earrings for this movie I think we come to a certain conclusion lol



I wasn't aware of the codpiece at al luntil it was pointed out to me. Somehow my eyes just aren't instantly drawn to another man's crotch area.

[BrollySupersj]

I saw toys in the Sonar Batsuit but not the regular one. Not even in the WB store.

This is the only one of the toyline that looked even remotely close to the first suit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SONAR-SENSOR-BATMAN-BATMAN-FOREVER-/370444884465?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56403c59f1

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Ya know, thinking of Batman Forever got me to remembering all the different toys that the movie had. But I can't remember if there was ever a toy that was just the regular batsuit. Was there? It seems like every single one was different colors and had different gimmicks.

Not one figure had the original bf suit in regular black, as a kid I looked for that thing til the end of time with no luck. The sonar suit figure was the closest thing to film accurate they made with any of the figures.

[ALP]

Ya know, thinking of Batman Forever got me to remembering all the different toys that the movie had. But I can't remember if there was ever a toy that was just the regular batsuit. Was there? It seems like every single one was different colors and had different gimmicks.

Unfortunately, we still hardly ever see nice collectibles out there from BF. There's ton of new figures being created all the time for Burton's work but BF is much more rare.

I wasn't aware of the codpiece at al luntil it was pointed out to me. Somehow my eyes just aren't instantly drawn to another man's crotch area.

Lol, lucky you. Are your eyes instantly drawn to the rubber nipples though? Maybe not but I bet you still notice them. I didn't notice that large penis on Bane's suit until GothamAlley pointed it out to me and now I can't unsee it:o

And while we're on the topic Robin's junk looks bigger than Batman's. No wonder Kilmer didn't return:o:o:wow::oldrazz::oldrazz:

[The Joker]

The Bruce Wayne stuff in this movie is actually pretty decent. The nightmares he's having and how he tries to cope with it. The scenes he had with Chase were great, as were the ones where he tries to counsel Dick.

The Alfred/Dick scenes were great, too, except for that retarded ninja laundry scene.

[GothamAlleys]

Yeah, the Bruce/Chase scenes were pretty good (as oppose to the cringe worthy Batman/Chase one liner exchanges). As for that laundry scene...2 washers and no dryer?

[Chris Wallace]

There was a dryer; he was just showing off.
I loved Two-Face's "counting on the winged avenger" line-right up until he lost me with the "blind, stupid, simple, doo-da, clueless luck!"

[imposserus]

it went something like
"i'm going after twoface, and you cant stop me"
and the batman says
"i can stop you"
and robins like ... oh yeah, he's batman, i should watch what i say...

and me, sitting on the hood of a car at a drive-in movie
i crack up laughing


don't back talk the batman

[Two-Face]

There was a dryer; he was just showing off.
I loved Two-Face's "counting on the winged avenger" line-right up until he lost me with the "blind, stupid, simple, doo-da, clueless luck!"

Yeah I didn't like that. TF laughing pain to hear.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I have to admit some of TF's lines weren't terrible but most of his dialogue was written pretty poorly.

[Chris Wallace]

I felt like BF overall had more of a comic book feel than the previous films; even if it sometimes seemed to go for the wrong aspects of that atmosphere. I liked the climax although it had more of a SPider-Man vibe to it than a Batman vibe; villain's learned the hero's identity, threatens the hero's loved ones, hero pulls a daring rescue involving wrist-mounted grapple launchers.
Anyways, I read the novel and something in the movie wasn't clear to me until I read it; there was no floor between Batman and the hostages. The lenses in his mask were to help him see through the Riddler's illusions. WHen he destroyed the Box receiver he also disabled the hologram. It seemed so obvious afterwards.

[Fudgie]

The movie gets unfairly lumped with B&F when it's not close to being as bad as it. I liked it better than Burton's movies.

[El Payaso]

The movie gets unfairly lumped with B&F when it's not close to being as bad as it. I liked it better than Burton's movies.

I assume B&F = B&R.

B&R was simply the same structure and tone, but without the goodies BF had (Jim Carrey, Batman's troubled mind). And add to that Batgirl.

BF was better than that. Now we're talking about the absolute worst superhero movie, so I'm not sure if that's much of an achievement.

But even Forever can't touch what Burton did. The Riddler and that cackling Two-Face travesty we got can't touch Nicholson's Joker, the magnificent Catwoman or the improvement over the original character DeVito's Penguin was. There you have evil and tortured sould, not just egomaniac cackling humages of the 1966 TV series.

[The Joker]

I hadn't watched the movie in awhile, but when I watched it last night, I started thinking...

It's really a very good Batman movie. It has alot of flaws, sure, but at the end of the day it's a very entertaining movie that captures the spirit of Batman very well. Outisde of Batman Begins, its the best characterization of Batman/Bruce Wayne by far, I really like the psychology of the character and his interaction with Chase is better than his interaction with any other Batman love interest. The Robin storyline is handled pretty well.

I actually agree with most of this. Although I think TDK also did better than Forever for the simple fact that Batman had a better story and stronger interaction with his villains as well as his supporting characters like Gordon and Lucius. But Bruce in this has some great scenes with Alfred, Dick and Chase.

Anyone else think Batman Forever is underrated?

In some areas. Mainly the Bruce Wayne stuff and to a lesser extent the Dick Grayson storyline.

The neon Gotham, nipples, butt shots and overly camp Riddler and Two Face are still as terrible as ever.

[Spoonman]

I assume B&F = B&R.

B&R was simply the same structure and tone, but without the goodies BF had (Jim Carrey, Batman's troubled mind). And add to that Batgirl.

BF was better than that. Now we're talking about the absolute worst superhero movie, so I'm not sure if that's much of an achievement.

But even Forever can't touch what Burton did. The Riddler and that cackling Two-Face travesty we got can't touch Nicholson's Joker, the magnificent Catwoman or the improvement over the original character DeVito's Penguin was. There you have evil and tortured sould, not just egomaniac cackling humages of the 1966 TV series.

I agree with all of this except the bolded. I think B&R was even campier than BF. B&R wasn't only lacking the good things of BF, it also amplified the mistakes of the latter, so the tone wasn't the exact same, at least in my eyes.

[El Payaso]

I agree with all of this except the bolded. I think B&R was even campier than BF. B&R wasn't only lacking the good things of BF, it also amplified the mistakes of the latter, so the tone wasn't the exact same, at least in my eyes.

I rephrase. The tone pretended to be the same. It also had Bruce facing his past - this time with Alfred - and the campy villiains. But the execution went so wrong that the resulting tone was even campier.

[Spoonman]

^ Yeah I undestand better now, definetely agree with your points, and about the Penguin thing I must confess I always prefered Burton's too, in the sense than when the name Penguin was mention it was DeVito's image that came to my mind, I must confess I've never been a big comic book reader so that may be factoring in such perception, I guess.

[christpunchers]

As cheesy as Tommy Lee's Two Face was, I thought the actor had the chops to play the real Dent/Two Face, at least in much greater capacity than Eckhart, who is as a wooden as a door nail.

The problem with Nolan's Two Face is that he's either happy, worried, or angry. There's no subtlties. He's just an actor, just there to deliever his lines and have Nolan tell him "go, be angry!".

When he was Dent, to me, he was just yet ANOTHER dude in a nice looking suit. I wasn't given anything to think that this guy was all that special. When he turned into Two-Face, he was just angry, ready to kill at a moment's notice. More could have been done with his character, at least when it comes to why he believes in luck and the random toss, or becoming at least torn with the idea that he should take revenge, to kill or not to kill.

So looking back, BF's Two Face was too cheesy but it's not like Nolan got the right tone either. I believe in a future reboot after Nolan, we ought to get Two-Face the way he appears in the comic, a rogue who's out for justice without becoming another Batman, yet can be embraced by the public but still devious enough to get the job done, no matter what.

[The Joker]

As cheesy as Tommy Lee's Two Face was, I thought the actor had the chops to play the real Dent/Two Face, at least in much greater capacity than Eckhart, who is as a wooden as a door nail.

Door nails are not wooden :cwink:

Jones is a great actor and maybe with a better script he could have done Dent justice, but Eckhart knocked it out of the park. In many ways he gave the most real performance of the movie. It's a shame he's often over shadowed by Heath.

The problem with Nolan's Two Face is that he's either happy, worried, or angry. There's no subtlties. He's just an actor, just there to deliever his lines and have Nolan tell him "go, be angry!".

What "subtleties"? How many range of emotions did you want to see from the character beyond happy, worried, or angry? Not that they were the only emotions he showed. You can throw in grief, too.

When he was Dent, to me, he was just yet ANOTHER dude in a nice looking suit. I wasn't given anything to think that this guy was all that special.

Right, so his zeal to bring Gotham back from the criminals, his passionate belief in Batman, his unpredictable nature in instances like abducting and terrorizing a Joker accomplice or turning himself in as Batman etc only showed you a regular guy in a nice looking suit?

I'm really anxious to hear what your vision of Harvey Dent is.

When he turned into Two-Face, he was just angry, ready to kill at a moment's notice. More could have been done with his character, at least when it comes to why he believes in luck and the random toss, or becoming at least torn with the idea that he should take revenge, to kill or not to kill.

All of that was addressed. He initially believed he could make his own luck hence why his coin was a two headed coin. The fact the coin got scarred by the explosion that killed Rachel was damning proof that he cannot make his own luck and it is based on chance. 50/50. Same odds he and Rachel had.

So looking back, BF's Two Face was too cheesy but it's not like Nolan got the right tone either. I believe in a future reboot after Nolan, we ought to get Two-Face the way he appears in the comic, a rogue who's out for justice without becoming another Batman, yet can be embraced by the public but still devious enough to get the job done, no matter what.

Dent was never out to become another Batman in TDK. In fact in case you missed the obvious, the whole point was that he was seen as the total opposite of Batman. A hero with a face who doesn't hide behind a mask. The symbol of hope Gotham can never be.

Who ever decides to take a stab at Dent in the reboot has some big shoes to fill.

[christpunchers]

Door nails are not wooden :cwink:

Jones is a great actor and maybe with a better script he could have done Dent justice, but Eckhart knocked it out of the park. In many ways he gave the most real performance of the movie. It's a shame he's often over shadowed by Heath.



How did he knock it out of the park? To me, he's got this wide eye hollow look on his face. Granted, he's got a good jawline and all, he looks like Dent if we only had a photo, but there's not a hint of darkness to him. Again, I've mentioned this in the past, but the guy looked like he walked from the set of "Thank You For Smoking" and over to TDK's set. The only difference is that he's reading off two different scripts. He never transformed into Harvey.



What "subtleties"? How many range of emotions did you want to see from the character beyond happy, worried, or angry? Not that they were the only emotions he showed. You can throw in grief, too.



Yeah, but all it felt mechanical. I believe someone else with more range would have done a better job than Eckhart (a gritty Jon Hamm maybe?). When people think about BR, they think of Michelle and Danny. When they think of TDK, Heath's Joker comes to mind a mile before Eckhart. I bet in the hive mind of the public, most people probably don't recall the details of Eckhart's performance. They'd say "Eckhart, who? Oh? That's the guy who played Two-Face right?" Eckhart is not in the same league as Heath, or perhaps a few other choice actors, but that's just my own opinion. While Eckhart is not a total mis-cast, I personally felt it was a missed opportunity. He's there to fill a position. And that's that.



Right, so his zeal to bring Gotham back from the criminals, his passionate belief in Batman, his unpredictable nature in instances like abducting and terrorizing a Joker accomplice or turning himself in as Batman etc only showed you a regular guy in a nice looking suit?

I'm really anxious to hear what your vision of Harvey Dent is.



I just don't buy that the goody two-shoe Dent we saw up until the "abduction" was actually a man who tosses a coin. There's no hint of Dent's dark side prior to that scene. He suddenly turned from good to half-bad in a moment's notice. That's not very convincing. Maybe it's the script, maybe it's Nolan, maybe it's Eckhart, but the guy is as dry as they come in terms of putting on a multi-layered performance. He's got little charisma. He never looks like he's got something less-than-noble to hide behinds his eyes. Again, perhaps it's just a matter of taste.



All of that was addressed. He initially believed he could make his own luck hence why his coin was a two headed coin. The fact the coin got scarred by the explosion that killed Rachel was damning proof that he cannot make his own luck and it is based on chance. 50/50. Same odds he and Rachel had.



That's another problem that I had: we're SUPPOSED to care for Nolan's Dent when he and his girl were in danger. But I really didn't give two bits about this whole "suspense". Rachel Dawes V1 from Begins and V2 from TDK is nothing more than a token romantic interest that's always been written for Bat-films; they're hollow to the core and unrealistic. Can the audience genuinely care for such a character? If "decisions" is the name of the game, then perhaps I'd have prefer Rachel to be alive. This way we would of had a scene where she must confront the new Dent (Rachel seeing Two-Face would have more gravity than Gordon seeing Two-Face).

It is also difficult to convince normal people, as complex as we become with time, that such a "white knight" like Dent actually exists. We have little to no background story on him, he's dropped into this film like soap in a bucket. A few short court scenes with laughable secondary actors are supposed to weren't enough to show what made him the greatest DA of Gotham.

My "vision": To really amp up Dent's story a bit more, you'd need more interaction between him and Bruce Wayne (not as Batman). Not just Bruce praising Harvey but perhaps some dialogue that reflect more conflicts of morality and hints of their double-life, split minds and differing ideologies. You know, more than just a dinner scene with a lifeless Rachel Dawes, a Russian dancer and reliance on Zimmer music.

Maybe a subplot of Dent planting evidence against the crooks would make him a truly tragic hero, some sort of false prophet. Rather than just pointing a gun at a mental patient and flipping a coin (cops in pop culture use force in interrogation all the time), why not have him flip a coin so he picks whether or not to play dirty?

Have Harvey do the dirty deed then have him hint to Rachel in a bed scene about what he has done, to gauge her reactions, to see if she understands or sympathizes. Maybe this way we could really see Dent as a moral man who eventually bends the rules to win an un-winnable battle. The end justifies the means sort of Harvey who is not sure about his choices.

If Rachel is dead by the time Harvey becomes Two-face, then have him grieve about his lies.

Or turn it around, keep Rachel alive and have Two-Face violently come clean with the truth so Rachel sees that her lover is not that simple.

So if you're still reading this, it's hard to "feel" for Nolan's Dent when he finally becomes Two-Face. Yes he lost Rachel, but I'm always wondering why are the two in love. The film does little display explain their affections. But then again, I must believe that they are in love simply because the film will not work otherwise. In other word, Eckhart and Maggie have almost no chemistry. I'm forced to believe that they have some type of bond even when I'm not seeing any. Since I cannot genuinely believe that they're in love, everything else about Two-Face just falls apart as Nolan's Two-Face was more or less out to avenge his girlfriend.



So Dent was never out to become another Batman in TDK. In fact in case you missed the obvious, the whole point was that he was seen as the total opposite of Batman. A hero with a face who doesn't hide behind a mask. The symbol of hope Gotham can never be.

Who ever decides to take a stab at Dent in the reboot has some big shoes to fill.



The best take on Harvey has yet to come. Nolan did what he needed to weave a Harvey Dent/Two-Face arc into TDK. But Two-Face deserves a more careful and intricate treatment, at least to the degree that they had put into Heath's Joker.

[Doctor Jones]

Whoa, they showed the Seal "Kiss From a Rose" BF music video this morning on VH1. Great song and I liked the video. Partly because of the 90's nostalgia.

And Bruce's scene talking to Dick about revenge is a great one. Also, O'Donnel's Grayson was one of the strongest aspects of the film. And "I'm both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not because I have to be. Because I choose to be." And I liked how they explored Bruce's past this time. It's a shame. Had Burton taken some of these ideas and made his own film, it could have been the best Burton one. I would kill to see a third Burton Batman film.

But in the meantime, I want to watch the Red Book edition. I found a cool trailer for it. Gives me chills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DFannlWa74

[The Joker]

How did he knock it out of the park?

By capturing the spirit of Harvey Dent and Two Face perfectly in his performance. The transition is near flawless. His Harvey is someone who believes in the law.

This article sums it up better than I can:

“You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”

These words, spoken by Harvey Dent in the film and its trailers, portend the inevitable corruptibility of heroes in the Batman universe. At the beginning of the film, Dent represents absolute good, a goodness that’s so pure, that has so much potential to change Gotham, that even Batman is thinking of hanging up his spurs.

Dent is referred to frequently as Gotham’s “White Knight,” a term used throughout the course of the film. I was speaking with a friend about this movie today and he pointed out that when he went to see the movie he did not anticipate “The Dark Knight” could actually also refer to Dent, a clever yet profound subtext to the film (and that’s not even mentioning the night/knight pun, which I will choose never mention again after this sentence). Indeed, Dent’s journey from light to darkness is handled plausibly and adeptly in the film, which makes his story arc monstrously tragic.

Many people have remarked on how depressing the film is and I would say that I mostly agree: The Joker’s ability to destroy that which Dent loves and turn him to the evil that he becomes is sad in a way that can only be experienced by seeing the film. But the apparent relative ease with which Joker does this is what makes the Dent storyline strike so close to home: The film makes us realize that we, as humans are limited, and that our capacity to be good is subject to the vagaries of fate and whatever the hell else decides to destroy what we love. Dent is not just a proxy for hope, he’s a proxy for us as well, reminding us of the duality that lies within each of us.

http://www.slashfilm.com/assessing-the-themes-of-the-dark-knight/

To me, he's got this wide eye hollow look on his face. Granted, he's got a good jawline and all, he looks like Dent if we only had a photo, but there's not a hint of darkness to him. Again, I've mentioned this in the past, but the guy looked like he walked from the set of "Thank You For Smoking" and over to TDK's set. The only difference is that he's reading off two different scripts. He never transformed into Harvey.

Wide eyed hollow look?

http://screenmusings.org/TheDarkKnight/pages/tdk_0267.htm
http://screenmusings.org/TheDarkKnight/pages/tdk_0409.htm
http://screenmusings.org/TheDarkKnight/pages/tdk_0827.htm
http://screenmusings.org/TheDarkKnight/pages/tdk_0940.htm
http://screenmusings.org/TheDarkKnight/pages/tdk_1360.htm

No offense, but you're talking nonsense, man.

Yeah, but all it felt mechanical. I believe someone else with more range would have done a better job than Eckhart (a gritty Jon Hamm maybe?).

It felt organic and very natural to me. I don't know what kind of standard you expect from actors if you felt his performance was mechanical. It's one of the best performances in a comic book movie.

He's got so many greats scenes but my favorite is the final one with Gordon and Batman where Eckhart raises the roof. His pain and anger at Batman and Gordon felt so real and genuine. You could see he was a man pushed over the edge.

When people think about BR, they think of Michelle and Danny. When they think of TDK, Heath's Joker comes to mind a mile before Eckhart. I bet in the hive mind of the public, most people probably don't recall the details of Eckhart's performance. They'd say "Eckhart, who? Oh? That's the guy who played Two-Face right?" Eckhart is not in the same league as Heath, or perhaps a few other choice actors, but that's just my own opinion.

When people think of The Silence of the Lambs they think of Hannibal Lecter, despite the fact that he only has about 18 minutes screen time and Jodie Foster is the leading character who also won an Oscar.

The fact that Heath comes to mind before anyone else doesn't diminish the effectiveness of Eckhart's performance at all.

I just don't buy that the goody two-shoe Dent we saw up until the "abduction" was actually a man who tosses a coin. There's no hint of Dent's dark side prior to that scene.

So what? That scene was all you needed to see he DID have a dark side. He did that just when Rachel was threatened. Imagine what he'd do if she was murdered.

What preludes to Selina Kyle's dark side did you see prior to her going loopy and deciding to sew herself a skin tight cat suit? What about her before that fall made you think this is a woman who would be involved in blowing up buildings, abductions and murder frame ups?

He suddenly turned from good to half-bad in a moment's notice. That's not very convincing.

No, he didn't. There was several preludes to it. First and foremost is the aforementioned scene involving abducting and terrorizing the Joker accomplice.

Second is the scene with Gordon after the scarring. Before the Joker even visits him and adds fuel to the fire. Dent expresses extreme anger and hate at Gordon for the betrayal he sees at Gordon's men being involved in what happened to him and Rachel.

Gordon: "I'm sorry, Harvey"
Dent: "No. No you're not. Not yet"

Again, perhaps it's just a matter of taste.

It clearly is in your case.

That's another problem that I had: we're SUPPOSED to care for Nolan's Dent when he and his girl were in danger. But I really didn't give two bits about this whole "suspense". Rachel Dawes V1 from Begins and V2 from TDK is nothing more than a token romantic interest that's always been written for Bat-films; they're hollow to the core and unrealistic.

That's your own preference. I can't tell you that you're right or wrong for not caring any more than you can tell me I'm wrong for not caring about Selina Kyle prior to her being turned into Catwoman.

But there is nothing hollow or unrealistic about a guy who is driven mad with grief over the loss of a loved one. It's the foundation for so many characters. Batman being one of them.

Did you give a flying fudge about the Waynes? I sure as heck didn't, yet Batman's whole foundation is based on him losing them.

It is also difficult to convince normal people, as complex as we become with time, that such a "white knight" like Dent actually exists. We have little to no background story on him, he's dropped into this film like soap in a bucket. A few short court scenes with laughable secondary actors are supposed to weren't enough to show what made him the greatest DA of Gotham.

You're really being silly now, man. Dent locked up half of the city's criminals. He wasn't dirty. He believed in Batman. He believed in saving Gotham.

In a City like Gotham, that is the best thing they've seen since sliced bread. You try and convince me that in a city as hopeless as Gotham, people would not put a great guy like that on a pedestal as a beacon of hope and virtue.

I can certainly buy it more than a city believing a bird man freak who's lived in the sewers all his life is the best candidate to run their city as Mayor :cwink:

My "vision": To really amp up Dent's story a bit more, you'd need more interaction between him and Bruce Wayne (not as Batman). Not just Bruce praising Harvey but perhaps some dialogue that reflect more conflicts of morality and hints of their double-life, split minds and differing ideologies. You know, more than just a dinner scene with a lifeless Rachel Dawes, a Russian dancer and reliance on Zimmer music.

Maybe a subplot of Dent planting evidence against the crooks would make him a truly tragic hero, some sort of false prophet. Rather than just pointing a gun at a mental patient and flipping a coin (cops in pop culture use force in interrogation all the time), why not have him flip a coin so he picks whether or not to play dirty?

Have Harvey do the dirty deed then have him hint to Rachel in a bed scene about what he has done, to gauge her reactions, to see if she understands or sympathizes. Maybe this way we could really see Dent as a moral man who eventually bends the rules to win an un-winnable battle. The end justifies the means sort of Harvey who is not sure about his choices.

If Rachel is dead by the time Harvey becomes Two-face, then have him grieve about his lies.

Or turn it around, keep Rachel alive and have Two-Face violently come clean with the truth so Rachel sees that her lover is not that simple.

That would completely diminish the effectiveness and tragedy of the character by portraying him like that. The brilliance in the tragedy of Harvey Dent becoming Two Face is that he wasn't a false prophet or a guy who relied on breaking or cheating the law in any way. The law failed him. Not the other way around. In the comics as well as in TDK, it is ultimately the corruption in the law that leads to Harvey's downfall.

He was a good guy who tried to play by the rules and do the right thing and he lost everything because of it. The power of that line he says in the final showdown "You thought we could be decent men in an indecent time. We were wrong. The only morality in a cruel world is chance. Unbiased. Unprejudiced. Fair".

So with all due respect, I hope your version of Dent is never used. I prefer noble and honest Harvey who loses everything.

The best take on Harvey has yet to come. Nolan did what he needed to weave a Harvey Dent/Two-Face arc into TDK. But Two-Face deserves a more careful and intricate treatment, at least to the degree that they had put into Heath's Joker.

He got a careful and intricate treatment. It is the best take on Dent we've had so far. It's probably the best villain Nolan has done because he's so fleshed out and well rounded.

Joker was great, but he was a total mystery regarding his background, which is the way Joker should be. But he was not given the level of attention Dent was, which is as it should be. Joker is an absolute. He is what he is and knows what he wants to do.

Dent has to be shown to go from a rise and fall from grace, which Nolan captured brilliantly.

[GothamAlleys]

Just want to chimm in on the Two Face issue. We DID see a hint of Dent's temper in TDK when he abducted one of Joker's thugs and wanted to blow his brains out before Batman intervened

I also think that he did have range of emotions. He was just a calm person, and maybe that make some believe that Aaron was just phoninh in his lines. He was this calm guy who believed in justice, than at the end he was this angry A hole that you just loved to hate

People remember Heath more cause everyone who knows Batman knows Joker. General audience doesnt know Two Face, and he wasnt in the TV show. Yeah, he was in Forever but I doubt the general audience remember him. Everything was either red, pink or green in Forever and all he was in Forever was just a cackling guy who was half pink like the background who laughed like a mentally challenged person and made silly faces whenever Riddler said soemthing

[El Payaso]

As cheesy as Tommy Lee's Two Face was, I thought the actor had the chops to play the real Dent/Two Face, at least in much greater capacity than Eckhart, who is as a wooden as a door nail.

The problem with Nolan's Two Face is that he's either happy, worried, or angry. There's no subtlties. He's just an actor, just there to deliever his lines and have Nolan tell him "go, be angry!".

When he was Dent, to me, he was just yet ANOTHER dude in a nice looking suit. I wasn't given anything to think that this guy was all that special. When he turned into Two-Face, he was just angry, ready to kill at a moment's notice. More could have been done with his character, at least when it comes to why he believes in luck and the random toss, or becoming at least torn with the idea that he should take revenge, to kill or not to kill.

So looking back, BF's Two Face was too cheesy but it's not like Nolan got the right tone either. I believe in a future reboot after Nolan, we ought to get Two-Face the way he appears in the comic, a rogue who's out for justice without becoming another Batman, yet can be embraced by the public but still devious enough to get the job done, no matter what.

Mh. Personally I liked Eckhardt's Harvey Dent/Two-Face more than Ledger's Joker. And that's saying nothing bad about Ledger's. But with a misterious Joker you need a good characerization, and tons of a messy make up will make you unrecognizable anyways. Now Harvey Dent's story needs subtleties and if you're in the same movie with the Joker you have a bad battle to fight.

Now it's okay if you didn't like it. But this post feels like you're comparing him to Tommy Lee Jones's performance. There's a point where the coulda-shoulda-woulda thing doesn't matter. It is when things are done. Nothing in this world can save the horrid portrayal Jones did of Two-Face. Not even those 20 good seconds in the first scene. Could have been better? Sure. But it was not.

[Doctor Jones]

Shame about his first few lines. They had something there.

"One man is born a hero, his brother a coward, babies starve, politicians grow fat, holy men are martyred, and junkies grow legion."

[Thebumwhowalks]

You know how fans were complaining of Two-Face re-flipping his coin until he got the result he wanted in BF?
Well, I just realized that they did that in TDK as well, when Harvey is holding Thomas Schiff at gunpoint, he is re-flipping the coin for another go when Batman interrupts him.
Ok, it's Harvey, he hasn't burnt his face off yet, but still, he's in his dark side Two-Face mode there.

[Godzilla2014]

Door nails are not wooden :cwink:

Jones is a great actor and maybe with a better script he could have done Dent justice, but Eckhart knocked it out of the park. In many ways he gave the most real performance of the movie. It's a shame he's often over shadowed by Heath.



What "subtleties"? How many range of emotions did you want to see from the character beyond happy, worried, or angry? Not that they were the only emotions he showed. You can throw in grief, too.



Right, so his zeal to bring Gotham back from the criminals, his passionate belief in Batman, his unpredictable nature in instances like abducting and terrorizing a Joker accomplice or turning himself in as Batman etc only showed you a regular guy in a nice looking suit?

I'm really anxious to hear what your vision of Harvey Dent is.



All of that was addressed. He initially believed he could make his own luck hence why his coin was a two headed coin. The fact the coin got scarred by the explosion that killed Rachel was damning proof that he cannot make his own luck and it is based on chance. 50/50. Same odds he and Rachel had.



Dent was never out to become another Batman in TDK. In fact in case you missed the obvious, the whole point was that he was seen as the total opposite of Batman. A hero with a face who doesn't hide behind a mask. The symbol of hope Gotham can never be.

Who ever decides to take a stab at Dent in the reboot has some big shoes to fill.

Agreed.

[Marx]

You know how fans were complaining of Two-Face re-flipping his coin until he got the result he wanted in BF?
Well, I just realized that they did that in TDK as well, when Harvey is holding Thomas Schiff at gunpoint, he is re-flipping the coin for another go when Batman interrupts him.
Ok, it's Harvey, he hasn't burnt his face off yet, but still, he's in his dark side Two-Face mode there.

I think the difference there is that TDK Harvey was re-flipping on Schiff to scare the hell out of him. He never had any intention of killing him.

[Godzilla2014]

I think the difference there is that TDK Harvey was re-flipping on Schiff to scare the hell out of him. He never had any intention of killing him.

Exactly.

[Doctor Jones]

And you know, it's a same sided coin.

[Anno_Domini]

Well, I just realized that they did that in TDK as well, when Harvey is holding Thomas Schiff at gunpoint, he is re-flipping the coin for another go when Batman interrupts him.

Double sided coin.

[Thebumwhowalks]

Ah, I forgot the coin had not been scarred yet, ah fug it, lol.

edit: and aye, you're right, he was not intending to murder by coin flip either, so if it had been scarred, it would not have mattered as he was bluffing.

Wow, I actually did not think through a superhero movie scene properly and got something wrong about it, this will be a day long remembered! haha

the scene in Bf is pretty dumb though, needlessly dumb as well, they could easily just have had Two-Face flip the coin once to determine whether or not to shoot Bruce.

another thing that has always bothered me about that ending...ok, Two-Face is dead, apparently(although we see his jacket in Arkham in B&R), the Riddler is in the loony bin with no memory of Bruce's secert Id, but what about all the henchmen thugs? Surely they all know Bruce's secret ID as well?

[Batman jr.]

I WILL be killed for this but:

I like BF much more than BR (which I HATE with a passion, I can't be the only one!)

In fact, some deleted scenes should've stayed in, like the giant Bat and the little dialogue before it between Bruce & Alfred.

Too bad they wasted Two Face and gave Gotham the "circus" look.

[Batman jr.]

I assume B&F = B&R.

B&R was simply the same structure and tone, but without the goodies BF had (Jim Carrey, Batman's troubled mind). And add to that Batgirl.

BF was better than that. Now we're talking about the absolute worst superhero movie, so I'm not sure if that's much of an achievement.

But even Forever can't touch what Burton did. The Riddler and that cackling Two-Face travesty we got can't touch Nicholson's Joker, the magnificent Catwoman or the improvement over the original character DeVito's Penguin was. There you have evil and tortured sould, not just egomaniac cackling humages of the 1966 TV series.

?

Devito's Penguin that coughs black blood is not an update, it's just Burton's "vision". And evil? Sorry, my grandmother was more evil and she got to 99.

Catwoman was good, but Michelle is and will always be ubermilf.

[Mister Meddle]

?

And evil? Sorry, my grandmother was more evil and she got to 99.

So your grandmother tried to murder all of the children in her hometown? Interesting....

[Batman jr.]

So your grandmother tried to murder all of the children in her hometown? Interesting....

Lol no, but in the final two years of her life she didn't do much besides sitting there & staring.

That made me a bit scared at times.

[El Payaso]

?

Devito's Penguin that coughs black blood is not an update, it's just Burton's "vision".

I never said it was an update, and never denied it was Burton's vision. I said it was an improvement over the original character.


And evil? Sorry, my grandmother was more evil and she got to 99.

So your grandmother tried to murder all of the children in her hometown? Interesting....

(I know it's Meddle's reply but there's not much to say about that statement of yours).



Lol no, but in the final two years of her life she didn't do much besides sitting there & staring.

So, Penguin was thousands of times more evil. I kinda knew it.

[Batman jr.]

Then we're cool. :awesome:

It must've been the hot weather here. :awesome:

[Batman jr.]

1) Two Face (mentioned above): He could've been much better, proof? His "serious" lines, like when he starts rambling to the captive guard.
2) Gotham City (mentioned above): too disco-like, but nowhere near as bad as in B&R of course.
3) Cut scenes (one mentioned above): Bruce confronting the giant bat & of course the awesome opening with TF escaping.
4) Nipples

But here are the things I DO like:

1) Bruce's car & bike collection :awesome:
2) Nicole Kidman: before her botox-period... :wow:
3) Jim Carrey as Riddler: made me an instant fan!
4) The scenes with TF & Robin on the rocks of Claw Island
5) Val Kilmer, downplayed and with a stylish darkness
6) Alfred & Bruce's relationship