Optimus Prime's characterization (Spoilers)

[terry78]

And here we are again as we were back in 2009 with some discussing how Prime was a little out of character this time around. In ROTF some said he was a little too brutal and out for blood(Energon, whatever). I was having a discussion with some people on another board that was talking about it, and some had an issue with Optimus and the Autobots ploy in letting everyone think they had been destroyed, because it more or less caused the devastation in Chicago. They also took issue with him killing Megatron and Sentinel when neither was a threat. Basically this version of Optimus is a much more pragmatic leader, but compared to other iterations, is it that varied?

[Dr Lee]

Someone put it to me that he'd reached his limit... He'd seen his planet ripped apart through war... his friends all dying around him.

And then his long lost mentor turns around and brutally kills one of his few remaining friends and reveals himself to be in league with the Cons....

Prime had just had enough....

The plot to show Earth what would happen if they were gone was a bit...left field... but i wonder if they expected the hell to happen that did happen when they came up with the plot

[dark_b]

it would take them 2 minutes and lets say 5.000 dollars extra to explain why OP killed Sentinel and Megatron at the END. IRONHIDE
he died and OP had enough so he destroyed everything in hes way to end it. but they didnt do that.

some are saying that he shouldtn kill Megatron since he saved him. he didnt save him. he would kill OP.

[PROLIFIK1]

^ Pretty much well said. After seeing all the chaos that had gone down, I think any good man or autobot for that matter would totally lose it after seeing his fellow friends get hurt and even lose their life.

I actually enjoy seeing Optimus get all heroic into the killing machine he was in ROTF and the Chicago seen in DOTM. Yeah unlike his usual character we're familiar with but makes you want to cheer him when he does that in the live action movies.

[webhead731]

When he came back and just said "we will kill them all" I about peed myself. He was just a badass in this.

[MOS]

Haven't seen DOTM yet, but Prime(and the other Autobots) were too brutal in the first two movies. I don't remember them having killed even one con in G1(except for Unicron, and when Optimus Prime tries to kill Megatron, but since he failed, it doesn't count). I always saw the Autobots as robotic versions of the Justice League, and Optimus Prime as Superman. Since Superman never kills, I expected Prime not to either.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Haven't seen DOTM yet, but Prime(and the other Autobots) were too brutal in the first two movies. I don't remember them having killed even one con in G1(except for Unicron, and when Optimus Prime tries to kill Megatron, but since he failed, it doesn't count). I always saw the Autobots as robotic versions of the Justice League, and Optimus Prime as Superman. Since Superman never kills, I expected Prime not to either.
You don't? My God, between the comics, the TFTM86 and the UK stuff they killed a whole lot of those f***ers. The only reason you never saw them do it in the Cartoon was because it was G-rated. The Decepticons never killed anyone in the 'toon save for the movie. Optimus killed a ton of red shirt Decepticons in War Dawn in season 2 though.

[TheWiseGuy487]

For those questioning Optimus being too brutal in these movies, just watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUAG6Gy-to
bBUAG6Gy-to

[Optimus_Prime_]

edit

[Colossal Spoons]

The only time I felt OP was being brutal(not too brutal, I think OP's actions have been appropriate in all 3 movies. It's his dialogue that sounded like the Terminator lol) was when he fought Megatron, Blackout, and Starscream in RotF right before he died.

[Nathan]

Optimus does what needs to be done, but I agree that his dialogue made him seem more brutal than he was. He isn't the kind of guy that says "Kill them all." Or rips someone's face off unnecessarily.

When he says "Megatron has to be stopped, no matter the cost.", to me it implies that Prime is ready to sacrifice himself, in order to protect everyone. But "Kill them all.", that's just too bloodthirsty.

I would have loved if they portrayed him as someone who doesn't like conflict, but can open a can of whoopass on you if he has to.

6ezHnli1_y8

[HerbLazer]

For those questioning Optimus being too brutal in these movies, just watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUAG6Gy-to
bBUAG6Gy-to


You've got the touch, you've got the power

[TAK The Voyager]

Even though Megatron saved his butt against Sentinel, he did kill him in the previous movie, he had it coming for awhile now. I do wish he wasn't killed off and they had some kind of momentary truce, though.

As for Sentinel, eff that guy, I would've done the same, too.

[Spade]

They also took issue with him killing Megatron and Sentinel when neither was a threat.

Megatron had it coming; he destroyed their world, nearly enslaved another, killed Optimus, and murdered many of his friends. His last words were just another bid for power. Sentinel...? If this was the cartoon, then yes, it'd be out of character. Cartoon Prime wouldn't stoop to his enemy's level. But it's not.

Basically this version of Optimus is a much more pragmatic leader, but compared to other iterations, is it that varied?

Movie Optimus is bizarre. One moment, he's Cartoon Optimus, talking about "great compassion." The next, he's a slasher flick killer that takes faces. So yes, he's very different. Only Bay knows why that is.

[bell110]

Haven't seen DOTM yet, but Prime(and the other Autobots) were too brutal in the first two movies. I don't remember them having killed even one con in G1(except for Unicron, and when Optimus Prime tries to kill Megatron, but since he failed, it doesn't count). I always saw the Autobots as robotic versions of the Justice League, and Optimus Prime as Superman. Since Superman never kills, I expected Prime not to either.

No one ever dies in the cartoons. But remember, these guys are in a war. Optimus' appeal for diplomacy can only last so long.

Optimus does what needs to be done, but I agree that his dialogue made him seem more brutal than he was. He isn't the kind of guy that says "Kill them all." Or rips someone's face off unnecessarily.

When he says "Megatron has to be stopped, no matter the cost.", to me it implies that Prime is ready to sacrifice himself, in order to protect everyone. But "Kill them all.", that's just too bloodthirsty.

I would have loved if they portrayed him as someone who doesn't like conflict, but can open a can of whoopass on you if he has to.

6ezHnli1_y8

God damn, I hate anime.

[Nathan]

I bet you've watched more anime than you actually realized.

[dark_b]

i think the reason he says kill them all is because in the last 3 movies we saw that if you dont kill a decepticon that he can still repair himself and come back. so the only way to stop them is to kill them all.

[bell110]

Only Voltron.

[Nathan]

i think the reason he says kill them all is because in the last 3 movies we saw that if you dont kill a decepticon that he can still repair himself and come back. so the only way to stop them is to kill them all.

I think every time they actually went into combat in the past movies, their opponent's head was turned to scrap. They know they have only one choice during war. We know it too. We don't need Prime telling them "Kill them all."

[Drizzle]

Someone put it to me that he'd reached his limit... He'd seen his planet ripped apart through war... his friends all dying around him.

And then his long lost mentor turns around and brutally kills one of his few remaining friends and reveals himself to be in league with the Cons....

Prime had just had enough....

This. It's like what John Rambo said..."When you're pushed, killing's as easy as breathing." Optimus wanted to end this war once and for all, and why shouldn't he? Optimus killing Megatron was justified because it really was Megatron's plan all along. Thousands of innocent lives were lost because of Megatron throughout the three films. There was no reason for him to live. Sentinel just joined his cause to preserve Cybertron, even though he had no plans of becoming Megatron's inferior. Still, Optimus needed to destroy him as well, if only to avenge Ironhide.

[Timstuff]

People often jokingly refer to Optimus Prime as "robot Jesus," but they often forget that in the Bible, it says in Revelation that Jesus will unleash his wrath on those who align themselves with the Antichrist.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/581/returnny.jpg

For years, Optimus Prime had tried to be peaceful in his resolution of conflict. He knew that Sentinel Prime was beyond saving, because he had already made his choice, and Optimus knew he had to bring down the hammer of righteous indignation on him.

[Spade]

And the bootheel of righteous indignation. And the shotgun shells of righteous indignation.

I have no problem with the allusions. It's still weird, though, that Prime goes from pleading for peace to stone cold killer mode in less than 2 minutes.

[Optimus_Prime_]

God damn, I hate anime.

I bet you've watched more anime than you actually realized.
Anime? Transformers The Movie 1986 is not anime? Didn't even premiere in Japan until a year after it came out in the states. In fact the Japanese were so unaware of the plot of TFTM that their anime (the actual anime Transformers) contained characters that died in the movie, and therefore would've precluded their inclusion in Headmasters. Yeah, that scene was American.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Optimus Prime carries a giant shotgun, of course he kills Decepticons, he's not Batman, don't be effing ridiculous.

[DoomsdayApex]

People often jokingly refer to Optimus Prime as "robot Jesus," but they often forget that in the Bible, it says in Revelation that Jesus will unleash his wrath on those who align themselves with the Antichrist.

For years, Optimus Prime had tried to be peaceful in his resolution of conflict. He knew that Sentinel Prime was beyond saving, because he had already made his choice, and Optimus knew he had to bring down the hammer of righteous indignation on him.


I disagree. Not with him killing a Decepticon in a combat scenario, that is understandable -- and not much can be done to prevent killing a man or bot in a situation where the opposing side is convinced to strip life.

BUT what I really found disgusting was how Optimus took out Sentinel.

[DoomsdayApex]

Keep in mind, Megatron (along with Starscream and Sentinel Prime) weren't exactly diabolical. Each one had their own agenda for their race and planet. Up until the final film, humans were never targets.

[Timstuff]

Keep in mind, Megatron (along with Starscream and Sentinel Prime) weren't exactly diabolical. Each one had their own agenda for their race and planet. Up until the final film, humans were never targets.

Exactly. Sentinel Prime saw himself as a god over humans, and believed he had the right to enslave them. He was the one who taught Optimus that freedom is the right of all sentient beings, and Optimus knew that he was not the same Sentinel that he once knew and respected. He was a Decepticon now, and it was Optimus Prime's responsibility as the leader of the Autobots to destroy him. As long as Sentinel lived, humans would never be safe.

[Spade]

Optimus Prime carries a giant shotgun

That was Megatron's giant shotgun.

[DoomsdayApex]

Exactly. Sentinel Prime saw himself as a god over humans, and believed he had the right to enslave them. He was the one who taught Optimus that freedom is the right of all sentient beings, and Optimus knew that he was not the same Sentinel that he once knew and respected. He was a Decepticon now, and it was Optimus Prime's responsibility as the leader of the Autobots to destroy him. As long as Sentinel lived, humans would never be safe.


With the final Decepticon threat eliminated (Megatron, Starscream, Shockwave, Barricade, Soundwave, etc all K.I.A.) and Cybertron ceasing to exist, what could Sentinel Prime be capable of?

Optimus (along with the Autobots) and humanity could have powered down Sentinel, and imprisoned him for eternality for his crimes.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Optimus killed a ton of red shirt Decepticons in War Dawn in season 2 though.

Thats actually debatable, thou I tend to look at it the way you do, fact is its possible those guys survived, its also possible they were drones.

For those questioning Optimus being too brutal in these movies, just watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUAG6Gy-to
bBUAG6Gy-to

Funny thing is none of those guys were killed

[Optimus_Prime_]

That was Megatron's giant shotgun.
I'm talking about the original toy.
Thats actually debatable, thou I tend to look at it the way you do, fact is its possible those guys survived, its also possible they were drones.
I don't think it's ever implied they survived, although Transformers frequently have the "I'm a robot get out of jail free card" they can pull when they are "killed". They probably were drones to be sure, but it's about as far as the cartoon could go on killing in a children's show.
Funny thing is none of those guys were killed
After watching the movie a billion times I've always taken these as "implied non-committal deaths". The Autobots outnumber the Decepticons toy line wise, so when Optimus needed to "kill" some Decepticons they simply showed "deaths" and then didn't commit to them for the sake of the toyline...if that makes sense. Considering Hasbro wasn't discontinuing those Decepticons they couldn't be killed in great number, so they showed a few Decepticons getting shot just to balance the battle a bit.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I don't think it's ever implied they survived, although Transformers frequently have the "I'm a robot get out of jail free card" they can pull when they are "killed".

thats kind of what I'm pointing to.

We have seen a few TF's taken apart, blown apart, decapetated and so much more and still live.

After watching the movie a billion times I've always taken these as "implied non-committal deaths". The Autobots outnumber the Decepticons toy line wise, so when Optimus needed to "kill" some Decepticons they simply showed "deaths" and then didn't commit to them for the sake of the toyline...if that makes sense. Considering Hasbro wasn't discontinuing those Decepticons they couldn't be killed in great number, so they showed a few Decepticons getting shot just to balance the battle a bit.I cant completely agree with you there.

Just about all the Decepticons Prime shot when looking for Megatron were seen running into Astrotrain under their own power.I'm sure Hasbro intended to kill most of those characters.....but the way I see it, its obvious they didnt want their "hero" being the one that killed them.

[Saitou Hajime]

I think I covered this on the review thread. Once Optimus had the chance to take the kid gloves off in TFTM, he was once ruthless SOB. Ordering the Dinobots to destroy Devastator, mowing down every Decepticon that got in his way, and confronting Megatron with the intent to kill him. And had he not blown his chance by wasting time mocking a pleading Megatron, he would've done to him what Bay's Optimus did to Megatron and Sentinel. It seems Bay's Optimus just watched TFTM on the break and got a little genre savvy with traitorous scum.

Like the 10th Doctor would put it: "No second chances. I'm that nice of a man."

[Bren]

I don't mind Optimus killing Decepticons in battle. It's Optimus being an executioner that gets me.

Optimus talking to Megatron and Sentinal Prime at the end: "You will not stop until you rule in tyranny and humans are enslaved. I have read the humans' comics; you are the Jokers, but I am no Batman to let you have yet another chance" - BANG BANG.

Hehehe.

[Saitou Hajime]

I don't mind Optimus killing Decepticons in battle. It's Optimus being an executioner that gets me.


He was going to execute Megatron in TFTM.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

He was going to execute Megatron in TFTM.
Thats actually debatable.

[Saitou Hajime]

Based on what? All the dialogue in the scene pointed to killing intent for Optimus.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Based on what? All the dialogue in the scene pointed to killing intent for Optimus.

Based on the fact that when he had the chance he didnt take it.
\
Based on the fact that he didnt lkill a single Decepticon on his run to Megatron.

Based on all the times he had the same chance and still didnt follow trew.

[Saitou Hajime]

Based on the fact that when he had the chance he didnt take it.


Because someone got in the way.


Based on the fact that he didnt lkill a single Decepticon on his run to Megatron.
Which tells us that Decepticons are tough bastards (Joker Immunity's a *****), not that Optimus wasn't trying to kill them. Putting aside the fact that even the softest lovetap amounted to a lethat hit in TFTM for some reason, those weren't exactly Kira Yamato-shots Prime was taking (except for the ones he ran over in truck form). Are you saying that he can order his men to kill, but can't have the conviction to carry through himself?


Based on all the times he had the same chance and still didnt follow trew.
Optimus pretty much said that time it was for real, and TFTM was as final a stage to do it.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Because someone got in the way.

I suggest you rewatch the film.

Prime had close to 1/2 a minute [23 seconds to be exact] from the time he grabed his gun to the time Hotrod interfered.


Which tells us that Decepticons are tough bastards

What itb tells us is that Hasbro didnt want their heros killing anyone.

Are you saying that he can order his men to kill, but can't have the conviction to carry through himself?

Trew out the whole film, not a single Decepticon was killed by asn Autobot.

Optimus pretty much said that time it was for real, and TFTM was as final a stage to do it.

His dialog contradicts his actions.

[Saitou Hajime]

I suggest you rewatch the film.

Prime had close to 1/2 a minute [23 seconds to be exact] from the time he grabed his gun to the time Hotrod interfered.


He picked an inappropriate time to chastize Megatron for prostrating himself. How does that change what his intent was, what his men were practically goading him to do?

If somebody interfered when Optimus was going to execute Sentinel, does that mean he wasn't going to kill him?


What itb tells us is that Hasbro didnt want their heros killing anyone.
Trew out the whole film, not a single Decepticon was killed by asn Autobot.

Villains living in spite of the heroes' attempts to kill them doesn't change the fact that the heroes WERE going to kill them.


His dialog contradicts his actions.
No, it doesn't.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

He picked an inappropriate time to chastize Megatron for prostrating himself. How does that change what his intent was, what his men were practically goading him to do?

As I already said, its not the first time Optimus had Meg's in that potion, its not the first time his men were "practically goading him to do it".

The fact that he hesitated is more in line with g1 Primes character, and its likely he would have granted mercy, like he had done before.

If somebody interfered when Optimus was going to execute Sentinel, does that mean he wasn't going to kill him?

Irrelevant.

They are 2 different characters.

Villains living in spite of the heroes' attempts to kill them doesn't change the fact that the heroes WERE going to kill them.

Theres no realy evidence they even tried to kill any cons.

No, it doesn't.
He didnt fire when he had the chance, his actions do contradict his dialog.They indicate he had doubts.

[warhorse78]

Wow, people are arguing about Optimus being too brutal all across the WWW. It was harsh in the final battle in Chicago, but he had to do this. Megatron showed no signs that he was going to offer a truce, and he was very weak, and still could kick ass. Optimus couldn't take the chance. The same with Sentinel. He was too powerful, too knowledgeable, but warped in a psychotic mind set that would have been unsafe. Optimus had enough of the treachery, time to end it. If he was really as brutal as you all say he is, he would have killed Wheelie for simply being a Decepticon, but he doesn't.

[Nathan]

Wow, people are arguing about Optimus being too brutal all across the WWW. It was harsh in the final battle in Chicago, but he had to do this. Megatron showed no signs that he was going to offer a truce

Except for the fact that he said. "We need a truce." >_>

The guy even lowered his gun.

[warhorse78]

Except for the fact that he said. "We need a truce." >_>

The guy even lowered his gun.

No he didn't, he was mocking Optimus, or did you miss that in the film when he says "What would you do without me!" He was mocking and making fun of Optimus at how his own mentor has abandoned him, Optimus had enough.

[Nathan]

Are you saying he didn't suggest the truce, or that he didn't intend to actually uphold it? Because if you mean the former, you need to watch the Movie again.

[DTH]

You guys have a serious problem with Prime being a soldier, don't you? He's the leader of a military that is earth's only (and pretty much last) line of defense against something that they could never take out themselves.

Prime was PISSED. He had seen the war from his planet spill onto an innocent planet's land, granted, the humans in charge of the space exploration lied to the Autobots, but Megatron crashed landed a long, LONG time before NASA existed.

Sentinel also killed one of his best friends, in THE MOST cold blood of actions, point blank with a extremely high powered shotgun, and let him die there...I'd say he was really fed up with the fact that he kept reiterating "I won't stand by and let you take the boy, or his fellow man ______ (insert any decepticon's name"

Also, Prime capturing and basically handcuffing decepticons? Are you effing kidding me? No offense, but either you're seriously hopelessly in love with a flawed justice system and promoting a over idealized, hopeless romantic "cops n robbers" or you're just really put off by doing what NEEDS to be done.

As I recall it was the decepticons who were mercilessly leading the autobots to horrific execution, not the other way around. Prime was tired of having the last of his kind mutilated, maimed and torn apart for some stupid idealogy the decepticons chased after and did what he needed to do.

Haters gonna hate, and Optimus Prime is gonna be Prime.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I havent seen the movie yet but I do have serious issue with people thinking Prime is too brutal in these movies, he gets pretty brutal at times in the comics as well you know? In some of the more recent comics, he killed Thunderwing and Glavatron (although he has since come back) and in All Hail Megatron, WOULD have killed Megatron if it was not for Starscreams intervention.

Also in another recent comic, when the Autobots were fighting Sixshot, he told them all to remove all safety protocols from their weapons to put him down. It has always been that when Prime needs too, he gets his hands dirty and puts people down who need to be.

[Dotten]

As an ex-soldier and long time Prime-fan, I must say I did'nt like how Optimus commited war-crimes. Excecuting unarmed and defeated soldier like that is way out of character. Did not like it, like killing a prisoner of war. Although understandable (the impact a war has on a man makes them do awfull acts), I always expect Optimus to be a leader who does'nt lose his freakin' mind like that. Then again, he's alien with different ethics than a human-soldier.

That is not the hero Optimus I played with 20 years ago. So I like the more "pacifist forced to pick up a gun" G1-version over this. Still had a great time with the movie.

[Marvin]

As an ex-soldier and long time Prime-fan, I must say I did'nt like how Optimus commited war-crimes. Excecuting unarmed and defeated soldier like that is way out of character. Did not like it, like killing a prisoner of war. Although understandable (the impact a war has on a man makes them do awfull acts), I always expect Optimus to be a leader who does'nt lose his freakin' mind like that. Then again, he's alien with different ethics than a human-soldier.

That is not the hero Optimus I played with 20 years ago. So I like the more "pacifist forced to pick up a gun" G1-version over this. Still had a great time with the movie.

he's changed
two movies ago he was one way, years later he's this way.
who'd have thunk.

[Raiden]

Only Voltron.

Thundercats was anime too, since its animation was done by Japanese artists. There are other series like Robotech (Macross), and older series like Astro Boy and Speed Racer that you probably didn't realize were anime to begin with, and if you watched Cartoon Network's Adult Swim then you probably saw other anime shows like Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Gundam MS08.

Anyway, as for the topic at hand, I think Optimus Prime had to right to kill Decepticons since technically it was for self-defense (after Decepticons were in a position to destroy the humanity), but the lines that he uttered like "We will kill them all" and to pretty much execute Sentinel Prime when he was essentially begging for his life and in a non-threatening position does made him seemed a bit...out of character. I just don't like to see the Autobots being rather helpless without Prime's presence, though; I thought they made Optimus Prime too powerful and others not enough.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Thundercats was anime too, since its animation was done by Japanese artists.

Sorry but your wrong about that.

Thundercats, like the origanal Transformers cartoon, is an American produced cartoon.

Being animated by Japanese artist is not the way to mesure if a show is "anime".

Its who is producing and writting.

[Raiden]

Sorry but your wrong about that.

Thundercats, like the origanal Transformers cartoon, is an American produced cartoon.

Being animated by Japanese artist is not the way to mesure if a show is "anime".

Its who is producing and writting.

Thundercats has that anime style found in other Japanimation series, just like the recent Marvel Anime series that are to be released on G4. It shouldn't matter if it was written by American writers or not. By your token, if He-Man was written by Japanese writers, it should be considered an anime series?

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Thundercats has that anime style found in other Japanimation series, just like the recent Marvel Anime series that are to be released on G4.

Having a style and being the actual thing are 2 different things.

And the Marvel Anime is being written and produced for the Japanese market.The characters and stories are being re-invented and introduced for a Japanese audience first.

It shouldn't matter if it was written by American writers or not.It certainly does.The show was wrtitten and produced by an American company with the American masrket in mind, it took its cues from American culture in how it was presented.

By your token, if He-Man was written by Japanese writers, it should be considered an anime series?

If it was written and produced by a Japanese company, with a Japasnese market in mind then it would be anime.

DBZ, Pokeymon, Death note fit that bill, even Marvel anime fits that bill because Marvel is leaving all the creative aspects of the shows to Japanese writers and producers so they can " re-imagine" the marvel characters.

The original Transformers and Thundercats dont fit the "anime" lable because they were written and produced by an American company with an American market in mind and took its cultral cues from American cuture.

The fact that they out sourced the animation to a Japanese animation studio does not make them "anime".

[Thundercrack85]

If it's animated in Japan, why would it not be considered anime? Where do you draw the line? What if half the writing staff was Japanese? How many writers have to be Japanese for it to be considered anime? Seems like an arbitrary definition.

[Marvin]

If it's animated in Japan, why would it not be considered anime? Where do you draw the line? What if half the writing staff was Japanese? How many writers have to be Japanese for it to be considered anime? Seems like an arbitrary definition.

80% of US animation is outsourced to Asian companies.
It's only CG and crappy flash that's done around these parts.

[Raiden]

Having a style and being the actual thing are 2 different things.

And the Marvel Anime is being written and produced for the Japanese market.The characters and stories are being re-invented and introduced for a Japanese audience first.
It certainly does.The show was wrtitten and produced by an American company with the American masrket in mind, it took its cues from American culture in how it was presented.



If it was written and produced by a Japanese company, with a Japasnese market in mind then it would be anime.

DBZ, Pokeymon, Death note fit that bill, even Marvel anime fits that bill because Marvel is leaving all the creative aspects of the shows to Japanese writers and producers so they can " re-imagine" the marvel characters.

The original Transformers and Thundercats dont fit the "anime" lable because they were written and produced by an American company with an American market in mind and took its cultral cues from American cuture.

The fact that they out sourced the animation to a Japanese animation studio does not make them "anime".

Yes it does, because anime should be considered as an art style and not based on who wrote or produced the said animation. Here's what I found from Wikipedia re: anime that echos how I felt:

English-language dictionaries define anime as "a Japanese style of motion-picture animation" or as "a style of animation developed in Japan"

[Marvin]

Justice League isn't anime by any stretch of the imagination.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Yes it does, because anime should be considered as an art style and not based on who wrote or produced the said animation

No it shouldnt because art styles can be copied and are open to viewer intepertation.

There are many people that can paint in the style of Leonardo da Vinci....but the works of those people wouldnt be considered the work of the man himself.

Here's what I found from Wikipedia re: anime that echos how I felt:

funny that you only post what you think helps your argument.

From the first sentence on Wikipedia's page on Anime
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime

Anime is commonly defined as animation originating in Japan.

[Raiden]

No it shouldnt because art styles can be copied and are open to viewer intepertation.

There are many people that can paint in the style of Leonardo da Vinci....but the works of those people wouldnt be considered the work of the man himself.

Yes, anime style can be copied, which would also be considered anime in terms of influence. Japanimation has many different styles, but whether if it's from Dragonball or City Hunter they all have distinctive style you found in Japan. Thundercats do have that style, from the look of the characters to the signature kinetic action sequences you usually found in other Japanimation shows, that's why I think they can be qualified as anime. It's like Disney has their own styles, and we can usually trace the look of modern cartoons or shows back to the old Disney if they were influenced by it. I shouldn't have to look up to see who the writer and the producer of an anime before deciding if they can be "qualified" as anime or not.

As for the da Vinci thing...I think modern artists can certainly copy his artwork and styles, just like they can with Monte, Van Gough, and other legendary artists. If we see an artwork that copies da Vinci's signature style, we would give credit where credit is due, and that is da Vinci, not the artist who copies his style, won't we?

funny that you only post what you think helps your argument.

From the first sentence on Wikipedia's page on Anime
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime

Going back to the Thundercats argument, I believe its art style can be traced back to Japan, where the style was originated from. That means it should be considered as anime. I don't see how this line contradicts my statement. You think that line means the animation must be made in Japan only, but only applies to the writer and producer, but not the artists.

And one more thing: If writer and producer alone determine whether an animation can be called an anime or not, then Marvel shouldn't have called their upcoming animated series as "X-Men Anime", "Iron Man Anime", etc., since they may have hired Japanese artists who drawn Marvel superheroes in anime style, but the rest belong to Marvel.

Anyway, I think in the end, we can agree to disagree re: this topic.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Yes, anime style can be copied, which would also be considered anime in terms of influence.

It can be considered "anime like" but not true anime.

Thundercats do have that style, from the look of the characters to the signature kinetic action sequences you usually found in other Japanimation shows, that's why I think they can be qualified as anime.

Again qulified as "anime like" not true anime.Besides, some of what you just cited as influanced by anime I wouldnt.

Thats why its a perception argument.

It's like Disney has their own styles, and we can usually trace the look of modern cartoons or shows back to the old Disney if they were influenced by it.

Influenced maybe, but you wouldnt call those works the work of Disney studios.

As for the da Vinci thing...I think modern artists can certainly copy his artwork and styles, just like they can with Monte, Van Gough, and other legendary artists. If we see an artwork that copies da Vinci's signature style, we would give credit where credit is due, and that is da Vinci, not the artist who copies his style, won't we?

And that credit would be addressed by saying da Vinci [who ever] inspired/influanced the artist.

But we wouldnt say da Vinci [who ever] was the artist.

In saying Thundercats is anime you are saying the copycat is an originasl.

It is nmot, Thundercats may have been indpired by anime, but it is not anime.

I don't see how this line contradicts my statement. You think that line means the animation must be made in Japan only, but only applies to the writer and producer, but not the artists.

It contradict your statement because it applies to the product as a whole.

Anime is not just the artist, writer or producer but the product itself as a whole.

And one more thing: If writer and producer alone determine whether an animation can be called an anime or not, then Marvel shouldn't have called their upcoming animated series as "X-Men Anime", "Iron Man Anime", etc., since they may have hired Japanese artists who drawn Marvel superheroes in anime style, but the rest belong to Marvel.

Actully the rest does not belong to Marvel.

Marvel has given these studios all rights to rre-create these characters to fit their Market.

Marvel has no creative control.Yes, they own the characters....but they arent involved in the creative process


Anyway, I think in the end, we can agree to disagree re: this topic.
thats kool

[Bumblebeee]

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[LostSon88]

Watching it again for the first time in months I realized something...

By the end of the movie, Optimus seems to have gone completely bat**** crazy.

I mean, he's completely lost it.

It's actually pretty funny.