I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.

[Kurt Wagner]

Three years later, I STILL believe in Harvey Dent...

But I'm a little curious on what people on the whole "Harvey Dent dies but Two-Face lives" theories. I personally think he's alive. The death in the film is only symbolic and not a physical death.

In the words of Harvey Dent/Two-Face himself, "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." It's very clear that's EXACTLY what happened... The person in the body, essentially, did not die. He became a villain. Harvey Dent lived long enough to see himself become Two-Face. At the death at the end, if you notice, Harvey's face was facing up and the burnt side was on the ground. His arms were out to the side and his legs straight in a symbolic Jesus/martyr fashion. The death that we witnessed wasn't the death of the person, but the symbolic martyr death of Harvey - "The White Knight" of Gotham City.

In addition, at the memorial service for Harvey, there was no casket to be seen. Thus, no body to prove the death of Harvey/Two-Face. As the movie was coming to a close, he was no longer that "White Knight," but a villain fueled by revenge--Two-Face, the disfigured, mourning killer. The death that we saw was the symbolic death of Harvey, and the birth of Two-Face.

Plus, Batman was the only one that could have killed him, and remember Batman's only rule?

Harvey Dent is dead.
Two-Face lives on.

People who support the idea that Harvey/Two-Face is dead do so mainly on the idea that 1. He's laying motionless on the ground and 2. It's written in the shooting script "Dent lies at the bottom of the hole, his neck broken. DEAD." BUT... People fail to realize that 1. The script is only a blueprint for a film, not a bible. Just because it's written, doesn't mean it will be scene. The film is intentionally ambiguous about Harvey's/Two-Face's death both because the duality of his death makes sense for the character and the story, and also leaves the possibility for seeing the character in future films. In addition, it's quite possible that the filmmakers left it ambiguous since Heath Ledger's death during filming made The Joker's return less of a possibility. 2. The very next line in the script says, "The coin stops spinning, GOOD SIDE UP." This suggests that Harvey/Two-Face is alive because the coin says so. It's ambiguous in the script also.

Let's not also forget that Two-Face says so himself in a hospital scene...
Detective Wuertz: Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.
Two-Face: Half

[Mister Meddle]

No offense but I think you're over speculating. Not trying to ruin the fun but if Christopher Nolan said he's dead then he's dead. He's the only person that can tell us whether or not the characters in his story are still alive. There's nothing more to it.

[Bathead]

I voted for the second as i believe it is possible, but I really don't know. At ths point it doesn't look like he's gonna be in TDKR.

[Kurt Wagner]

When did Nolan himself ever say that Harvey Dent/Two-Face is dead? Only Aaron Eckhart said that Nolan said that... and for all we know, that could be misinformation. Nolan is super secretive about his films... So anything is possible.

[Kurt Wagner]

Lets also not forget that Batman knew the fall that Marconi took when Batman dropped him would not kill him. He even says so. When Batman takes Harvey down, he's counting on the same thing... not having the fall kill Harvey. It's no accident that during the fall, Nolan chooses to focus the shot on the coin that Harvey flipped just before Batman took him down... The coin appearing on it's good side, suggesting that he lives... The good part of Harvey... the White Knight... Lives.

[IndyJokerJones]

Lets also not forget that Batman knew the fall that Marconi took when Batman dropped him would not kill him.

Except Maroni landed on his feet, breaking his leg(s). Harvey landed in a way that would break his back and shatter his skull. He's dead, give it up.

[Blue Sugar]

In the eyes of the public Dent died a hero. It was Batman who saw himself become the villain. Love that twist.

[Kurt Wagner]

In the eyes of the public Dent died a hero. It was Batman who saw himself become the villain. Love that twist.

That's not the twist... You obviously don't know Nolan films. Ever see the Prestige?

Every great magic trick consists of three parts or acts. The first part is called "The Pledge". The magician shows you something ordinary: a deck of cards, a bird or a man. He shows you this object. Perhaps he asks you to inspect it to see if it is indeed real, unaltered, normal. But of course... it probably isn't. The second act is called "The Turn". The magician takes the ordinary something and makes it do something extraordinary. Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it, because of course you're not really looking. You don't really want to know. You want to be fooled. But you wouldn't clap yet. Because making something disappear isn't enough; you have to bring it back. That's why every magic trick has a third act, the hardest part, the part we call "The Prestige"."

[Caekzor]

2. The very next line in the script says, "The coin stops spinning, GOOD SIDE UP." This suggests that Harvey/Two-Face is alive because the coin says so. It's ambiguous in the script also.

The coin was flipped for Gordon's son. ;)

In the eyes of the public Dent died a hero. It was Batman who saw himself become the villain.

Exactly.

Also, do you really think that they (Gordon AND the police) stuffed Harvey Dent in a room in the basement of Arkham Asylum and somehow kept that quiet? Which means that a lot more people would need to be in on 'the secret'.

Or maybe Gordon dragged Dent off and hid him until he could come back later (Harvey stayed unconscious for a long time) and take him home... maybe Harvey is locked in Gordon's basement! :wow:

[flyinghamster]

for everybody insisting that the fall killed the charecter , why wasn't he dead when he was riding the car with Marconi and driver, the crash that killed the other two in the car why didn't it kill harvey then and there.

[HisMagicTrick]

for everybody insisting that the fall killed the charecter , why wasn't he dead when he was riding the car with Marconi and driver, the crash that killed the other two in the car why didn't it kill harvey then and there.

Why is everyone so sure that the crash killed Maroni? Has anyone who works on these movies actually said so?

[Liam_H]

@Kurt Wagner
I don't know why you would bring the premise of the Prestige into the Batman movies, its not like Nolan only makes movies that have a twist at the end.

[*Whiplash*]

Considering they had the service for Harvey and I'm pretty sure Gordon would have called for paramedics at the end. It's not like he would have just left the body lying there!

He's dead.

[Cobblepot]

Harvey is a tough guy, he survided after being severely burned. I'm sure he survived the fall.

But Harvey's dead, there's only Two-Face...

[The Joker]

As much as I'd love more of Eckhart's Two Face, I think he's dead.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Nolan and Eckhart have already said he's dead. There is no discussion.

[Kurt Wagner]

Nolan and Eckhart have already said he's dead. There is no discussion.

Like i asked before... When did Nolan ever say this?

And when Eckhart answered it, he was ambiguous...
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7359200n

[Kurt Wagner]

Nolan and Eckhart have already said he's dead. There is no discussion.

Okaaaaay, so I ask again... When did Nolan say this???

[Snare]

Lets also not forget that Batman knew the fall that Marconi took when Batman dropped him would not kill him. He even says so. When Batman takes Harvey down, he's counting on the same thing... not having the fall kill Harvey. It's no accident that during the fall, Nolan chooses to focus the shot on the coin that Harvey flipped just before Batman took him down... The coin appearing on it's good side, suggesting that he lives... The good part of Harvey... the White Knight... Lives.

If you look closely enough at the coin you can see Venom's reflection in it.

:o

[I'm Not a Hero]

I strongly believe he is dead.

[TheBat812]

Jonathan Nolan semi-confirmed it. http://incontention.com/2008/07/21/jonathan-nolan-kind-of-confirms-the-unthinkable/

But anyways, he's dead imo, and no reason to bring him back. We see him dead for a reason. When would Harvey's body in Two-face form have time to run away, and why would they never mention that during the tribute scene?

[Kurt Wagner]

Jonathan Nolan semi-confirmed it. http://incontention.com/2008/07/21/jonathan-nolan-kind-of-confirms-the-unthinkable/

But anyways, he's dead imo, and no reason to bring him back. We see him dead for a reason. When would Harvey's body in Two-face form have time to run away, and why would they never mention that during the tribute scene?

The reason to bring him back is because he is one of the most interesting villians in the Batman universe... second to only the Joker. There is a reason why Dent's death is ambiguous. And also why they never fully confirmed it... all answers on the question of Dent's death have been semi-confirmed as you put it. Why wouldn't they mention it in the tribute scene? Because of the element of surprise.

[darkjedi4z]

It would've been awesome if he had a cameo, like locked up in Arkham or something, where they put him to hide him. But yeah, I think he died.... I don't know if it was photoshopped or anything, but I saw something (which I won't say) that made it look like he was dead.

[Indy1Jones]

Dead Maybe.

[Ultra Lantern]

Harvey Dent is dead,but Two-Face lives.

[fakescorpion]

I don't think he's alive.
For many average movie-goers (such as myself, who don't know all that much about Batman related characters), the ending of The Dark Knight is powerful because Harvey's dead. It'll cause us a lot of confusion if he's brought "back" in the third movie.

[Team Andino]

Harvey Dent is dead, but Two Face's actions will live on.

[Godzilla2000]

I'm inclined to just not make any assumptions one way or the other on the subject in that in comic books everyone has come back from the dead when things looked very final. Why should it be any different for comic book movies.

[HisMagicTrick]

Harvey Dent is dead, but Two Face's actions will live on.

This.

[Bathead]

I'm inclined to just not make any assumptions one way or the other on the subject in that in comic books everyone has come back from the dead when things looked very final. Why should it be any different for comic book movies.

I agree with this, but at this point, it looks like Two-face is done as far as Nolan's films are concerned. that's a shame, as I think Two-face would have made a teriffic main villain for the third film, and quite frankly, I was a little disappointed how Nolan killed him off so quickly. I do hope that some future director will use Two-Face, to me, he is almost as much of an arch-enemy as the Joker.

[El Payaso]

Hahahaha. It was discussed to death back in the day but no, I don't remember any thread specifically opened for this issue.

It goes really simple: Dent is dead and so is everything Dent: his demons, problems, Two Face (who was never in the movie a separate entity as some pretend to make it look), etc. He died.


The reason to bring him back is because he is one of the most interesting villians in the Batman universe... second to only the Joker.

Then they should bring back the Joker, shouldn't they?

There is a reason why Dent's death is ambiguous.

Dent's was most likely the least ambiguous death ever in a superhero movie.

And also why they never fully confirmed it... all answers on the question of Dent's death have been semi-confirmed as you put it.

It's kinda pointless to confirm something that is so very clear. You confirm things that leave room for doubts. Here, Dent died, his head was manipulated as you manipulate a dead corpse and you could see his eulogy.

Why wouldn't they mention it in the tribute scene? Because of the element of surprise.

What tribute scene would this be?

[Kurt Wagner]

Then they should bring back the Joker, shouldn't they?



Absolutely! The Joker didn't die in the movie, right? :doh:

[El Payaso]

Absolutely! The Joker didn't die in the movie, right? :doh:

No, he did not. Right.

[Kurt Wagner]

bumping this thread up :D

[elgaz]

Look, it doesn't really get any more crystal clear or obvious than this. If you think he's still alive, you're clutching at straws and ignoring what is right in front of you.

No more speculation, no more talk of ret-con and false funerals -- Harvey Dent is officially 100% dead. It comes straight from the mouth of Aaron Eckhart (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001173/), who revealed his character's fate in no uncertain terms to ComingSoon.net (http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=48470) "He is dead as a door nail. He ain't coming back baby!"

And lest you doubt that he knows the mind of Christopher Nolan, well, Eckhart asked him whether Two-Face would ever be coming back. "I asked Chris [Nolan] that question and he goes, "You're dead" before I could even get the question out of my mouth. 'Hey Chris, am I?' 'You're dead!' 'Alright, cool.'" There's no chance it will be rewritten or retconned, as he was never even contracted for a third film. "No, I'm not coming back. I think unfortunately, Heath [Ledger] was supposed to go on and that didn't work out. I'm nobody. I'm a cog. I have no say over this sort of stuff. I'm sure that there's so many other characters that they could whip together. I heard Angelina Jolie was going to be Catwoman or something like that. I thought that was a great idea. I'd like to be in that one."

Having Harvey Dent still be alive would totally take away from the impact of his death at the end of The Dark Knight and it would serve no other purpose at this stage than to satisfay the Dent fanboys who won't accept the character died.

Bane and Catwoman are the focus in this film, Dent/Two-Face is dead, get over it.

[Ryan]

Anyone know where to find the pics they used of Dent at the funeral?

[Holiday]

I wonder if many out there are still holding on to the "Two-Face is still alive theory" since the info about the story line for Rises taking place 8 years later came out...

[*Whiplash*]

Anyone know where to find the pics they used of Dent at the funeral?

http://imstars.aufeminin.com/stars/fan/tommy-lee-jones/tommy-lee-jones-20040428-1355.jpg

:awesome:

[Damianwayne]

Harvey Dent is dead . People are looking way to much into things. And people who say dent/two-face was killed of to early and sisnt impact enough was not watching the same movie as me. His charecter was the whole base of the story . He was the jokers biggest joke. He took the white knight of gotham and turned him into a madman hell bent on revenge. I dont think dents story is finishrd but dent is . He is the focus of the whole god damn film. The struggle between good and evil is played out by one charecter. I for one hope he is dead bit they will be using dent as a major part in the next film in as bane will use him as a focus in his war on batman and gotham and im pretty sure i've seen pics of bane holding up one of the i believe in harvy dent posters.. In short anyone who thinks dent/two-face was undervalued by Nolan really has to re-watch the film and see that nolan has build his whole ethos of the story around him imo.

[uniqueweasel]

Harvey Dent is dead . People are looking way to much into things. And people who say dent/two-face was killed of to early and sisnt impact enough was not watching the same movie as me. His charecter was the whole base of the story . He was the jokers biggest joke. He took the white knight of gotham and turned him into a madman hell bent on revenge. I dont think dents story is finishrd but dent is . He is the focus of the whole god damn film. The struggle between good and evil is played out by one charecter. I for one hope he is dead bit they will be using dent as a major part in the next film in as bane will use him as a focus in his war on batman and gotham and im pretty sure i've seen pics of bane holding up one of the i believe in harvy dent posters.. In short anyone who thinks dent/two-face was undervalued by Nolan really has to re-watch the film and see that nolan has build his whole ethos of the story around him imo.

Agreed

[Two-Face]

I wonder if many out there are still holding on to the "Two-Face is still alive theory" since the info about the story line for Rises taking place 8 years later came out...

What? He is a DEAD man.:oldrazz:

[BatmanMoviesFan]

harvey dent cant die... even though nolan killed him off, 2face plays such a big role in the batman mythos. He is prolly one of my favorit villains.

[elgaz]

harvey dent cant die... even though nolan killed him off, 2face plays such a big role in the batman mythos. He is prolly one of my favorit villains.

He's dead in Nolan's trilogy, that's all. He still exists in the other Batman universes/stories.

I mean, Joker died in Burton's 1989 Batman film but that didn't mean they couldn't use him in Nolan's versions.

[Silent_Guardian]

He's dead. I really don't think Gotham would live in peace for 8 years until DKR if he were still alive. Just going off the end of DK and all the trailers for DKR. You can put a spin on anything that exists, to come up with one theory or another that you are convinced of, if you want it badly enough. It can't hurt your chances. :P

[Octavias]

Whether he is dead or alive and locked up outside of the public view in Arkam is irrelivent at this point. He wont be in TDKR and that is the last Nolan film ever so it simply doesnt matter.

[ZeroDegrees]

He's dead. Yeah, it was hard to determine and we've had some very cryptic hints from the actors but I believe he's dead. It won't matter though, the main things are the repercussions of his actions and how they will play into TDKR.

Here's why I think he's dead:
-He can't survive that fall (Batman can though). And if he could, he would also break his neck.


-We saw a memorial with Gordon giving a speech at the end and in the prologue.

-DO NOT READ! SPOILERS! Blackgate Prison in TDKR is dedicated to Harvey Dent.

I believed in Harvey Dent.

[X-Maniac]

Christopher Nolan confirms in Empire magazine that Harvey Dent / Two-Face is dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. As in: not alive, no longer living, dead.

Nolan said: "There are tricks that are fair and tricks that aren't fair. You DO see him dead. It was quite an expensive visual effect to stop his chest moving."

Link to article quoting Empire on Two-Face, Joker, Catwoman and Riddler (http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/thegeekfiles/2012/06/dark-knight-rises-nolan-says-batman-comics-irrelevant-was-nervous-about-catwoman-resisted-studio-cal.html)