Wait, Wait, Wait, how did...

[zclark1994]

How did Norman Osborn forget that Peter Parker was Spider-Man after One More Day. I mean if the only major continuity change was that MJ and Peter didn't get married, then Osborn's knowledge of Peter's secret shouldn't have been changed. I mean it's not like GG didn't kill Gwen anymore, that happened way before the wedding? I realize this might have been asked before but I couldn't seem to find it. Could someone please explain the logic behind this for me?

[DACrowe]

Wait now even Norman doesn't know he's Spidey?! As in they ruined the most interesting villain/hero dynamic at Marvel?!

:facepalm:

Yet another reason why BND sucks, it would seem.

[:eek:]

Norman forgot because everyone else forgot after the magical mindwipe Peter did with some help from Dr. Strange, Reed Richards and Tony Stark.

[zclark1994]

I believe that's correct, unless I'm extremely mistaken. But I'm pretty sure that in New Ways to Die Norman takes the thunderbolts to Peter's apartment seeing if Peter can lead him to Spider-Man or something like that. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure Norman doesn't know who Peter is, but there shouldn't be a reason for that right?

[zclark1994]

Norman forgot because everyone else forgot after the magical mindwipe Peter did with some help from Dr. Strange, Reed Richards and Tony Stark.

So that's it, I haven't really had a problem with anything else in brand new day, but that just rubs me the wrong way.

[Spider-Gnome]

Norman knows who Spider-Man is. He's the thorn in his (alter ego Green Goblin) side. Norman knows who Peter Parker is. He's the friend of his son Harry Osborn.

It's just now, Norman doesn't know Peter is Spider-Man thanks to the mentioned magical mindwipe created by Dr. Strange, Reed Richards and Tony Stark

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Norman knows who Spider-Man is. He's the thorn in his (alter ego Green Goblin) side. Norman knows who Peter Parker is. He's the friend of his son Harry Osborn.

It's just now, Norman doesn't Peter is Spider-Man thanks to the mentioned magical mindwipe created by Dr. Strange, Reed Richards and Tony Stark

Sorry, but it still sounds dumb. :dry:

[Spider-Gnome]

Sorry, but it still sounds dumb. :dry:

Most everything associated with OMD is.

[zclark1994]

Most everything associated with OMD is.

Agreed

[Themanofbat]

If you take away the "OMD/OMIT/marriage vs Quesada" part out of the equation, how is the magical mindwipe created by Dr. Strange, Reed Richards and Tony Stark any different than when any of the other heroes of the MU or the DCU have used a similar tactic to make everybody's memories disappear?

In a 5 year period prior to his death in 1973, Norman Osborn kept getting amnesia 3 times whenever the Green Goblin showed up in his books, so he had to go... when they brought him back, then the fact that GG knew his identity and held such massive power over PP was brought up ad nauseum... same with Venom... the whole "he knows my identity and he can get to the ones I love" schtick was overused in my opinion, and them not knowing PPs identity brings bac a fresh look to Spider-Man that had gotten prosaic and old.

The Peter Parker/Norman Osborn interaction is far better NOW than it has been since Norm's ressurection.

:yay:

[Spider-Aziz]

Sorry, but it still sounds dumb. :dry:
Same goes with a guy getting proportionate strength, speed, and agility of a radioactive creature it bit

At least not as stupid as penguins in the sewers of a city teaching a baby how to behave like a human

[Spider-Gnome]

If you take away the "OMD/OMIT/marriage vs Quesada" part out of the equation, how is the magical mindwipe created by Dr. Strange, Reed Richards and Tony Stark any different than when any of the other heroes of the MU or the DCU have used a similar tactic to make everybody's memories disappear?

The method makes "comic book sense," but the whole writing Spidey into a corner in the first place is annoying. Let Pete unmask? Sure, fine! It was all leading to the erasing of Pete & MJ's marriage. The mindwipe was quick way of cleaning up the mess once the deed was done. But, of course, that's the "OMD/OMIT/marriage vs Quesada part out of the equation."

In a 5 year period prior to his death in 1973, Norman Osborn kept getting amnesia 3 times whenever the Green Goblin showed up in his books, so he had to go... when they brought him back, then the fact that GG knew his identity and held such massive power over PP was brought up ad nauseum... same with Venom... the whole "he knows my identity and he can get to the ones I love" schtick was overused in my opinion, and them not knowing PPs identity brings bac a fresh look to Spider-Man that had gotten prosaic and old.

The Peter Parker/Norman Osborn interaction is far better NOW than it has been since Norm's ressurection.

:yay:

While I don't necessarily agree with your last statement, the whole amnesia bit over the years made me more accepting of Osborn currently not knowing Pete is Spider-Man.

At least not as stupid as penguins in the sewers of a city teaching a baby how to behave like a human

Ha! That made me laugh! :woot:

[Spider-ManHero12]

The method makes "comic book sense," but the whole writing Spidey into a corner in the first place is annoying. Let Pete unmask? Sure, fine! It was all leading to the erasing of Pete & MJ's marriage. The mindwipe was quick way of cleaning up the mess once the deed was done. But, of course, that's the "OMD/OMIT/marriage vs Quesada part out of the equation."


While I originally thoguht the idea of the mindwipe was really bad (OMD was), BND brought back a feeling of Spider-Man that I haven't felt in a long time. It was refreshing to see familiar things again and when part 1 of BND happened, it was the most fun I'd had with a Spidey comic since the end of the JMS/JRJR run.

[Spider-Aziz]

Ha! That made me laugh! :woot:Happy I made a funny

[Fanged-Hunter]

It's just now, Norman doesn't know Peter is Spider-Man thanks to the mentioned magical mindwipe created by Dr. Strange, Reed Richards and Tony Stark

I'm not entirely convinced that even happened, to be honest...

We just can't honestly and truthfully know what did and didn't happen. Why?

"Hey, Mephisto, I know you're basically the devil, Satan the deceiver, the betrayer, the liar, but listen..." And that sums it up.

The deal with Mephisto included that nobody would remember who Peter was. There's really nothing to suggest that Norman wouldn't be included in that. For all we know the whole Dr. Strange story is just a fabrication to make it seem believable without Pete remembering the devil was involved.

/shrug

I still don't like BND because of the boxes of comics I own being pointlessly invalidated.

The most irritating thing about it for me was OMD kind of showed the readers "Hey, look, we can write a marriage properly if we try to" right before destroying it. Pfsh.

Also, and I'll get flamed for this one, I have noticed an interesting thing here. Since OMD...

We've had Peter get drunk.

He then engaged in a one night stand with his room mate.

He then suddenly hooked up with Black Cat as a friend with benefits, and now he's sleeping with his girlfriend.

We've seen him step a little closer to the edge when he was saving Harry's baby. He's been enraged when he decided "nobody dies when I'm around."

There's all these things that haven't really felt in character to me, some of which could be linked to traditionally "sinful behavior" (Wrath, Lust, etc)

All after making a deal with the devil. A deal, might I point out, that explicitly stated neither he nor MJ would find happiness from that point on. He's dating a new girl, he's sleeping with her...he'll never really love her because Mephisto intentionally made a point that a tiny part of his soul, and MJ's, will know something is missing.

Do I give Marvel credit for this all being part of a long stretching plot? Hell no.

Do I wish they would have manned up and kicked the writers' arses for doing a piss poor job depicting the marriage and fix it instead of letting it meander aimlessly until squashing it? Hell yes.

I just don't see anything in BND that couldn't have been equally done prior to OMD with the marriage in tact if they weren't so dead set on writing the relationship badly.

Now I'll say that aside from the Peter cheating on his wife that isn't his wife but on a cosmic level should still be his wife side of the story, I'm enjoying the Spider-adventures, JJJ as mayor, the May story (though she should be dead since the Clone saga. BEST. WRITTEN. DEATH. EVER.), the supporting cast, and Pete's new job.

And I'll get off my soap box. I welcome anyone to ignore my ranting. It happens once in a while when I just get an itch to be irritated with something from four years ago. :p

[Themanofbat]

The deal with Mephisto included that nobody would remember who Peter was. There's really nothing to suggest that Norman wouldn't be included in that. For all we know the whole Dr. Strange story is just a fabrication to make it seem believable without Pete remembering the devil was involved.

The irony in the OMD deal, is that once Mephisto goes back in time (as the red pigeon) and gets that guy out of the police car, even though everything still happens as we read them (with the exception that they didn't get married), the road that leads to OMIT makes it so that the "deal" never happened.

Think about it.

I still don't like BND because of the boxes of comics I own being pointlessly invalidated.

Those stories still happened as you read them. It's your own stubborness that makes you think they are pointless.

Clone Saga = still happened.
Kraven's Last Stand = still happened.
Gwenbeing killed by the Green Goblin - still happened.
JMS' run = still happened.

Fanged-Hunter being stubborn about a 4 year old story = still happening. :oldrazz:

Also, and I'll get flamed for this one, I have noticed an interesting thing here. Since OMD...

We've had Peter get drunk.

Nope. Just bad nerves. He only had one drink. The rest was ginger ale.

Also, and I'll get flamed for this one, I have noticed an interesting thing here. Since OMD...

He then engaged in a one night stand with his room mate.

Nope. They shared a kiss, and they passed out. Try again.

Also, and I'll get flamed for this one, I have noticed an interesting thing here. Since OMD...

He then suddenly hooked up with Black Cat as a friend with benefits, and now he's sleeping with his girlfriend.

Peter had history sleeping with the Black Cat... why is this a big deal?
He's not sleeping with her now, because he's in a committed relationship with Carlie... and guess what grown-ups in committed relationships do? They sleep with each other. I don't understand why this would be such a terrible thing for you. :huh:

Do I give Marvel credit for this all being part of a long stretching plot? Hell no.

Do I wish they would have manned up and kicked the writers' arses for doing a piss poor job depicting the marriage and fix it instead of letting it meander aimlessly until squashing it? Hell yes.

I just don't see anything in BND that couldn't have been equally done prior to OMD with the marriage in tact if they weren't so dead set on writing the relationship badly.

The bottom line is that Spider-Man has ALWAYS worked better as a siungle man struggling to make his personl life work while always having things interfere by his being Spider-Man. I'm sure they could have written a better Spider-Marriage, but at the end of the day, the owners of the character Spider-Man, Marvel Comics Inc., WANTED a single Spider-Man... and for whatever reason, they thought the story called OMD was their best option without creating a reboot where all those old comics you own would be pointlessly invalidated.

Whether you like this creative decision will be yours and yours to make.

Now I'll say that aside from the Peter cheating on his wife that isn't his wife but on a cosmic level should still be his wife side of the story, I'm enjoying the Spider-adventures, JJJ as mayor, the May story (though she should be dead since the Clone saga. BEST. WRITTEN. DEATH. EVER.), the supporting cast, and Pete's new job.

And I'll get off my soap box. I welcome anyone to ignore my ranting. It happens once in a while when I just get an itch to be irritated with something from four years ago. :oldrazz:

When he's in these new relationships, he's not cheating with MJ, because they are no longer a couple. That may be a bitter pill for some fans to swallow, but that's the new reality inthe book. They were a common-law couple for about five years, and then they broke up because MJ had had enough after the ruccus of Civil War, and she was mad at Peter for making her remember it all, when she just wanted to forget. While we see MJ as a strong woman, she still is a normal person and had her breaking point. Most of us would have cracked much sooner thanshe did, in my opinion.

It's good to get a rant going, but always know that someone like me will always be there to make sure your comments are commented on.

Cheers...

:yay:

[USMC]

While we see MJ as a strong woman, she still is a normal person and had her breaking point.

A simple divorce would have been easier and more real and, imo, keeping in line perfectly with keeping Peter "as a single man struggling to make his personal life work while always having things interfere by his being Spider-Man."

Just my opinion. :o

Anyway, at least the majority of OMD/BND is OVER and Spidey stories are actually good again. This we can all agree on... i think? :)

[November Rain]

have any major superheroes had a divorce so far?

[Spider-Aziz]

have any major superheroes had a divorce so far?
Johnny Storm

[Spider-Gnome]

I'm not entirely convinced that even happened, to be honest...

We just can't honestly and truthfully know what did and didn't happen. Why?

"Hey, Mephisto, I know you're basically the devil, Satan the deceiver, the betrayer, the liar, but listen..." And that sums it up.

The deal with Mephisto included that nobody would remember who Peter was. There's really nothing to suggest that Norman wouldn't be included in that. For all we know the whole Dr. Strange story is just a fabrication to make it seem believable without Pete remembering the devil was involved.

/shrug

Again, don't confuse me with someone who approves of OMD, but yes, no one remembers Pete is Spidey is part of the Mephisto deal. Dr. Strange, Richards, & Stark's solution is the mechanism to make this happen just as the red pigeon (? :wow: :whatever: ?) was the mechanism so the marriage never takes place.


I still don't like BND because of the boxes of comics I own being pointlessly invalidated.

AS TMOB said, it does not. Technically, it doesn't even invalidate the wedding issue because, if you think of it like Back to the Future, the first time through the loop, it happens.


Also, and I'll get flamed for this one, I have noticed an interesting thing here. Since OMD...

We've had Peter get drunk.

He then engaged in a one night stand with his room mate.

He then suddenly hooked up with Black Cat as a friend with benefits, and now he's sleeping with his girlfriend.

There's all these things that haven't really felt in character to me, some of which could be linked to traditionally "sinful behavior" (Wrath, Lust, etc)

All after making a deal with the devil. A deal, might I point out, that explicitly stated neither he nor MJ would find happiness from that point on. He's dating a new girl, he's sleeping with her...he'll never really love her because Mephisto intentionally made a point that a tiny part of his soul, and MJ's, will know something is missing.

Do I give Marvel credit for this all being part of a long stretching plot? Hell no.

Those are actually interesting when you look at it that way. But, no, you're right. That was not Marvel's clever writing. That was just badly writing Pete out of character to be "hip & today." Go back to those issues in the 60's, 70's, & 80's. Pete was not what you call "hip & today" back then either.


Do I wish they would have manned up and kicked the writers' arses for doing a piss poor job depicting the marriage and fix it instead of letting it meander aimlessly until squashing it? Hell yes.

I just don't see anything in BND that couldn't have been equally done prior to OMD with the marriage in tact if they weren't so dead set on writing the relationship badly.

Agree. The marriage was not the problem. It was the writing that was the problem.


And I'll get off my soap box.

Yes, because there is no room for anyone on a soapbox on the internet. :oldrazz:

[Spider-Gnome]

OK, TMOB's turn!

The irony in the OMD deal, is that once Mephisto goes back in time (as the red pigeon) and gets that guy out of the police car, even though everything still happens as we read them (with the exception that they didn't get married), the road that leads to OMIT makes it so that the "deal" never happened.

Think about it.

He's a crafty one that Mephisto! Thing is, my BTTF analogy, the deal, like the marriage, still happened, the first time through the time continuum.


Nope. Just bad nerves. He only had one drink. The rest was ginger ale.

And that little piece of retcon only made it worse! Now, you don't even have the alcohol to blame!


Nope. They shared a kiss, and they passed out. Try again.

No, I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that they did in fact hook-up (I know because I thought they were going to tease it and go with what you said, but nooooo). Strike two?


Peter had history sleeping with the Black Cat... why is this a big deal?
He's not sleeping with her now, because he's in a committed relationship with Carlie... and guess what grown-ups in committed relationships do? They sleep with each other. I don't understand why this would be such a terrible thing for you. :huh:

Thing is, in the 80's, Pete (at least in his mind) was in a relationship with Black Cat. He did not treat it like "friends with benefits."

And honestly, the Carlie thing STILL bugs the crap out of me and is a blemish in my enjoyment of Big Time. So, I really prefer to not throw that kind of stuff in my face. They never really did in the past (aside during the marriage).


The bottom line is that Spider-Man has ALWAYS worked better as a siungle man struggling to make his personl life work while always having things interfere by his being Spider-Man.

That is a matter of opinion, NOT fact.


I'm sure they could have written a better Spider-Marriage, but at the end of the day, the owners of the character Spider-Man, Marvel Comics Inc., WANTED a single Spider-Man... and for whatever reason,

They should have thought of that BEFORE he got married then.


they thought the story called OMD was their best option

Boy, were they off!


Whether you like this creative decision will be yours and yours to make.

Well, you know how I stand. :cwink:

The thing of it was, they were married. Marvel didn't want him married. It's like Marvel saying, oh we don't want Pete to be white anymore. We don't want Pete to be a male anymore. We want Aunt May to be killed by the burglar and not Uncle Ben. All because we think it works better.

That's what annoys me about all this.


It's good to get a rant going, but always know that someone like me will always be there to make sure your comments are commented on.

Cheers...

:yay:

Right back at ya, 'bats! :yay:


And we were getting along so well there for a while...


:yay:

[Themanofbat]

:yay:

[Spider-Aziz]

Edit, too corny

[bugman]

Agree. The marriage was not the problem. It was the writing that was the problem.
i'm glad you make mention of this, as i completely agree. i get so sick of reboots and retcons and renumbering and all that crap in lieu of good writing. jms run is excellent proof of this, especially while he was working with romita, jr., and prior to civil war. jm dematteis also wrote their marriage very well. it was writers who didn't really know what to do with it, who didn't know how to mine the tension and drama and love from their relationship, that led us towards this place where we are now. i've grudgingly come to except omd and whatever else they put down the pike, partly cus i have to, but also because, for better or for worse, that's what spidey is these days. amazing spider-man, to me, is the absolute primary "reality" of our beloved hero. it just sucks when it isn't totally awesome. slott is growing on me, though.

peter and mary jane should be together. i still live in the belief that at some point, spidey will, in his inimitable fashion, heroically rise and reclaim his relationship with her, despite mephisto and others.

i'm also still waiting for a real continuity addressing of peter and mary jane's child, who was clearly taken from them in spider-man #75. i wait and i wait. i mean, little may is out there, somewhere...and i want spider-man's spider sense to return. and i want the relationship jms showed us, where spidey and the global "web" of spider energy are connected, and...

well, i could go on and on. the bottom line is this: good writers write good stories. the best of them--jms, jm dematteis, roger stern, roy thomas, gerry conway, stan lee--really give us something to enjoy and feel. i really want to feel consistently when it comes to my favorite character, and part of what made me feel is that i can relate to his relationship with mj, their ups and downs, all that they're struggled through. i love betty, gwen, felicia, deb whitman, but it's always--ALWAYS--been about mary jane. it's time for her to be front and center again.

[Spider-ManHero12]

Edit, too corny lol, what was it?

[Themanofbat]

i really want to feel consistently when it comes to my favorite character, and part of what made me feel is that i can relate to his relationship with mj, their ups and downs, all that they're struggled through. i love betty, gwen, felicia, deb whitman, but it's always--ALWAYS--been about mary jane. it's time for her to be front and center again.

MJ plays a pivotal role inthe books now as his best friend and confidante.

However, it's not always been about MJ... during the Gwen years, she was HANDS DOWN Peter's girl... to the point he still thinks about her very fondly... recently, House of M put Peter in a reality that would suit his dreams, and he was loved by the public, and had a married relationship with Gwen... that speaks volumes... That's not to say that MJ is a two-bit character... I love Mary Jane, but she has always played "second-fiddle" to Gwen...

Just my opinion.

[Spider-Gnome]

MJ plays a pivotal role inthe books now as his best friend and confidante.

While I agree, I'd like to see more of it. And honestly, I wish they would get rid of Carlie. I haven't disliked a girlfriend of Pete's this much since Deb. It still bugs me (the whole OMD/BND). I really wish they would get Pete & MJ back together.


... recently, House of M put Peter in a reality that would suit his dreams, and he was loved by the public, and had a married relationship with Gwen... that speaks volumes...

...about the writer of House of M.


That's not to say that MJ is a two-bit character... I love Mary Jane, but she has always played "second-fiddle" to Gwen...

That's just your opinion!


Just my opinion.


Oh.

:O

:yay:

But you're wrong. :oldrazz:


:yay:

[Themanofbat]

:cmad: :cmad: :cmad:

:yay:

[bugman]

mary jane's current role is not enough for me, i'm afraid. further, i want them to be married again. i like the way their partnership works.

i dig where your coming from with gwen, and i have great affection for her. but to me, she's no mary jane.

[SpideyInATree]

Same goes with a guy getting proportionate strength, speed, and agility of a radioactive creature it bit

At least not as stupid as penguins in the sewers of a city teaching a baby how to behave like a human

Exactly. Same goes with a guy getting radioactive material splashed into his face. Chances are he'd go blind and then eventually die of radiation poisoning. Same with the guy who turns into a hulking beast after being in a Gamma bomb explosion. He'd probably just blow up to bits or just immediately have died from all the radiation.

Or the guy who got struck by lightning and splashed with chemicals and magically can run fast. Normally when people get struck by lightning they either die or are seriously messed up for the rest of their lives. Anybody read Flashpoint? A nice little hilarious touch thrown in by Johns in, I think, issue # 2 where Barry is trying to get his powers back. :woot:

[USMC]

have any major superheroes had a divorce so far?

Who cares? Spidey used to be the trend-setting hero to read. :oldrazz:

[Vid Electricz]

I actually find that comment interesting. No, no major superheroes file for divorce, because, you know, it doesn't promote values and all that. Instead, the writers make up silly, half-hearted reasons why the characters can't be together.

I don't know anything about the whole brand new day, one more day thing aside from Peter making a pact with Mephisto (wtf). It's just another lame event in a long line of lame events from weak writers who can't figure out what to do with their characters. Pure garbage. And superhero fans wonder why no one takes them seriously.

I don't care how corny or hokey people consider the Ditko/Lee/Romita stories to be, at least they were earnest and had heart. This new stuff is soulless trash.

[Spider-Gnome]

No, no major superheroes file for divorce, because, you know, it doesn't promote values and all that.

Because making deals with the devil is any better...


I don't care how corny or hokey people consider the Ditko/Lee/Romita stories to be, at least they were earnest and had heart.

:up:


This new stuff is soulless trash.

Actually, the new Slott stuff in Amazing is very good.

[SpideyInATree]

I actually find that comment interesting. No, no major superheroes file for divorce, because, you know, it doesn't promote values and all that. Instead, the writers make up silly, half-hearted reasons why the characters can't be together.

I don't know anything about the whole brand new day, one more day thing aside from Peter making a pact with Mephisto (wtf). It's just another lame event in a long line of lame events from weak writers who can't figure out what to do with their characters. Pure garbage. And superhero fans wonder why no one takes them seriously.

I don't care how corny or hokey people consider the Ditko/Lee/Romita stories to be, at least they were earnest and had heart. This new stuff is soulless trash.

Well, you can't necessarily blame the writers. The decision to get rid of the Peter Parker/MJ marriage was an editorial decision. JMS was just put into a bad decision...one of the reasons he doesn't work at Marvel anymore.

[Vid Electricz]

Well, you can't necessarily blame the writers. The decision to get rid of the Peter Parker/MJ marriage was an editorial decision. JMS was just put into a bad decision...one of the reasons he doesn't work at Marvel anymore.


Yeah, you're right. I shouldn't have blamed the writers per se. It's a shame though, that there are good writers that are shoe-horned into stupid, ridiculous positions and story lines they must abide by- all by the money grubbing editorial staff.

[moraldeficiency]

MJ plays a pivotal role inthe books now as his best friend and confidante.

However, it's not always been about MJ... during the Gwen years, she was HANDS DOWN Peter's girl... to the point he still thinks about her very fondly... recently, House of M put Peter in a reality that would suit his dreams, and he was loved by the public, and had a married relationship with Gwen... that speaks volumes... That's not to say that MJ is a two-bit character... I love Mary Jane, but she has always played "second-fiddle" to Gwen...

Just my opinion.

Well be fair that was written by "Peter parker and Gwen stacy are the bestest evah!" Mark Waid. When you're doing an alt. universe story that gets unmade you can do all sorts of wacky stuff because it doesn't really count. I would use HoM as any gospel for peter especially since in HoM peter was also the green goblin, then fakes his death and runs away. Apparently that was his "dream reality" at least according to waid. If that's a version of Spider-Man you think is accurate then good for you, but I think we both know that's just so far off it's sad.

Gwen's good for people that like their girlfriends without personalities and in constant need of saving (there is a fantasy market for this in comics), MJ was kind of the girl that had her own opinion which often put her at odds with peter and about half the time she would rescue herself (and even sometimes peter) when put in a trouble spot.

Fiddle this, fiddle that, it comes down to do you want your woman to be independent and strong or just filling a hole (see what I did there?).

Bottom line peter's been married to MJ longer than he's been with any five other girlfriends put together. They've been married, they've committed to something big (big enough that even according to Joey Q who just looooves marriage) that satan found their love to be better and a bigger win over god then taking one of their immortal souls. So bottom line old people can say what they will, according to what's happened in this reality MJ and Peter are the cat's pajamas, Gwen's just that first love that never got resolution so it lingers.

[USMC]

according to what's happened in this reality MJ and Peter are the cat's pajamas, Gwen's just that first love that never got resolution so it lingers.

Bingo. :up:

[Themanofbat]

Those tragic early loves do indeed linger...

I know people that are still hanging on... 20 years later...

[SpideyInATree]

Yeah, you're right. I shouldn't have blamed the writers per se. It's a shame though, that there are good writers that are shoe-horned into stupid, ridiculous positions and story lines they must abide by- all by the money grubbing editorial staff.

I know especially a writer like JMS. It happened twice on the Spider-Man book and then they did it to him again on Thor. I really am not a fan of Thor and was picking that book up because I like JMS' writing and Coipel's artwork was AMAZING. However, they made him take the story into a direction he wasn't planning for because it worked with where the "Marvel Universe was going...".

Some writers find a way to take an editorial mandate and turn it into something good and other times writers are pushed against the wall and have the do the best they can with a sticky situation.

[Infidel]

I don't know why people expect explanations out of Marvel. They don't care. They actually put this garbage out on stands as their way to end Spider-man's marriage. They put out the worst comic book material ever. They even told fans they had new stories involving no secret-identity Spider-man and his magical ressurection that was really bizarre. That's when they stopped caring.

I tried reading it and everything about Amazing is bad. The writing. The art is changing and doesn't match each other. Doc Ock looks terrible.

It's just an awful book and it's about editorial decisions. The editor's edict is 'you have to like this. This is Spider-man now.' No I don't. No it's not.

[Themanofbat]

If you believe this, then stop crying and move to another book.

:yay:

[moraldeficiency]

If you believe this, then stop crying and move to another book.

:yay:

That's a horrible attitude and if applied is more childish then what you're talking about. If you don't like what you're gov. is doing renounce your citizenship and move to another country. If you don't like your family run away. If you like your child give them up to an adoption agency.

If you really care about something and you don't like what's happening the responsible thing is to stand up and talk it out. To try and change things. To do what you think needs to be done or at least SOMETHING that may make things better. Abandoning things just because you don't like it is like picking your toys up to go play by yourself. It's childish and doesn't fix anything. I mean when black people we're being treated fairly (still are, but I mean seperate but equal times) would you have said stop crying and move to another country or do you think the civil rights movement was a good thing? You want change you make your voice heard in every way you can assuming what you want changed is something you care about enough to devote your time and energy to things.

[Themanofbat]

That's a horrible attitude and if applied is more childish then what you're talking about. If you don't like what you're gov. is doing renounce your citizenship and move to another country. If you don't like your family run away. If you like your child give them up to an adoption agency.

If you really care about something and you don't like what's happening the responsible thing is to stand up and talk it out. To try and change things. To do what you think needs to be done or at least SOMETHING that may make things better. Abandoning things just because you don't like it is like picking your toys up to go play by yourself. It's childish and doesn't fix anything. I mean when black people we're being treated fairly (still are, but I mean seperate but equal times) would you have said stop crying and move to another country or do you think the civil rights movement was a good thing? You want change you make your voice heard in every way you can assuming what you want changed is something you care about enough to devote your time and energy to things.

Seriously?

I think it's far more "childish" on your part to compare disliking a book to disliking your government, your family and child... or to civil rights equality.

Actually, I'd say it's more "drama-queen-ish" to make such comparisons...

However, I do agree with you about voicing your opinions when you disagree with something far more valid, like government, work and/or school policies, lack of equal opportunity, bad choices/decision by family members, etc... but go back and read what he (she?) said... the art was bad... the writing was bad... everything about the book was bad...dock ock's new look is terrible... etc... are those not "subjective" opinions?

While this person may think that those things are bad, there are people who feel the opposite... some people like dock ock's new look, some people like the art, some people like the writing... you're not going to invoke change based on personl dislikes, at least not in a comic book format, so it would make more sense to tell someone who doesn't like the "current" direction/art/writing/character changes of ANY book to simply try something else, and maybe come back when "new" direction/art/writing/character changes are more to their liking...

I used to think that you might have been above lame "trolling 101" theatrics, but I guess I was wrong.

Nice try though...

:yay:

[Spider-Gnome]

Those tragic early loves do indeed linger...

I know people that are still hanging on... 20 years later...


Wait, are you talking about anyone specifically...?

[glancing at my (now larger) avatar]


:cwink:


:yay:

[moraldeficiency]

Seriously?

I think it's far more "childish" on your part to compare disliking a book to disliking your government, your family and child... or to civil rights equality.

Actually, I'd say it's more "drama-queen-ish" to make such comparisons...

However, I do agree with you about voicing your opinions when you disagree with something far more valid, like government, work and/or school policies, lack of equal opportunity, bad choices/decision by family members, etc... but go back and read what he (she?) said... the art was bad... the writing was bad... everything about the book was bad...dock ock's new look is terrible... etc... are those not "subjective" opinions?

While this person may think that those things are bad, there are people who feel the opposite... some people like dock ock's new look, some people like the art, some people like the writing... you're not going to invoke change based on personl dislikes, at least not in a comic book format, so it would make more sense to tell someone who doesn't like the "current" direction/art/writing/character changes of ANY book to simply try something else, and maybe come back when "new" direction/art/writing/character changes are more to their liking...

I used to think that you might have been above lame "trolling 101" theatrics, but I guess I was wrong.

Nice try though...

:yay:

You clearly missed what I was saying, let me clarify. If you CARE about something no matter what it is, then just giving up on it is childish. Whether it be your gov., your child or some fictional character that you may attribute role model characteristics. Is that more clear?

I mean you go out of your way to whine about whining so obviously something about all this matters enough to you to ***** about.

But it's very easy to attribute anything to being drama queenish. Although your logic fails in that you're actually promoting the "drama" by adding to it.

Saying art or looks are bad is in fact subjective. Art has no relative ground for good or bad. You either like something or you don't. Everything he spoke about is something that can only be judged subjectively.

I may agree that you cannot evoke change based on this if ben reilly was still starring in ASM but since he isn't then I can say it is possible that if enough people complain about something and it tanks for long enough then change does in fact happen. In fact it is the ONLY way for fans to bring about change in comics.

If you think this is trolling or dramaqueenish or whatever, you're just labeling because your argument is weak. I get this, it's a desperate tactic that reeks of failure. It's also beneath you. I used to think you could actually argue a point without having to resort to bottom feeding namecalling logic tactics that haven't changed since kindergarden but I guess I was wrong as well (see I can do that too, it doesn't really do anything though, it's just a cheap shot and only shows you can't make a valid argument on it's face). Or to put it another way since there are going to be people on the internet that don't agree with you perhaps you shouldn't come on here and read any opinions since they mostly won't be to your tastes. Try your own solution.

[JJJ's Ulcer]

You guys are both embarrassing yourselves. Just agree to disagree and move on.

[moraldeficiency]

Well thanks for that JJJJr. I'm ok with being embarrassed over them internets. Arguing anything on a comic book forum is in a way embarrassing yourself. For example you right now claiming to like be the voice of authority in a subspecific topic about a fictional character is kinda embarrassing.

[Themanofbat]

You clearly missed what I was saying, let me clarify. If you CARE about something no matter what it is, then just giving up on it is childish. Whether it be your gov., your child or some fictional character that you may attribute role model characteristics. Is that more clear?

I mean you go out of your way to whine about whining so obviously something about all this matters enough to you to ***** about.

But it's very easy to attribute anything to being drama queenish. Although your logic fails in that you're actually promoting the "drama" by adding to it.

Saying art or looks are bad is in fact subjective. Art has no relative ground for good or bad. You either like something or you don't. Everything he spoke about is something that can only be judged subjectively.

I may agree that you cannot evoke change based on this if ben reilly was still starring in ASM but since he isn't then I can say it is possible that if enough people complain about something and it tanks for long enough then change does in fact happen. In fact it is the ONLY way for fans to bring about change in comics.

If you think this is trolling or dramaqueenish or whatever, you're just labeling because your argument is weak. I get this, it's a desperate tactic that reeks of failure. It's also beneath you. I used to think you could actually argue a point without having to resort to bottom feeding namecalling logic tactics that haven't changed since kindergarden but I guess I was wrong as well (see I can do that too, it doesn't really do anything though, it's just a cheap shot and only shows you can't make a valid argument on it's face). Or to put it another way since there are going to be people on the internet that don't agree with you perhaps you shouldn't come on here and read any opinions since they mostly won't be to your tastes. Try your own solution.

Clear as mud, bud... but thanks for repeating yourself... it's always a pleasure.

And you're whining about me whining over other people whining... I think we should just pass the cheese and move onto something else.

Of course it's easy... because some people just make it so... thanks. :up:

We seem to agree with the fact that comic art/writing is subjective, so we can wrap this up.

I'm just calling a spade a spade.

Thanks for coming out... :up:

:yay:

Well thanks for that JJJJr. I'm ok with being embarrassed over them internets. Arguing anything on a comic book forum is in a way embarrassing yourself. For example you right now claiming to like be the voice of authority in a subspecific topic about a fictional character is kinda embarrassing.

Hahaha... seconded... :woot: :up:

:yay:

[moraldeficiency]

Clear as mud, bud... but thanks for repeating yourself... it's always a pleasure.

And you're whining about me whining over other people whining... I think we should just pass the cheese and move onto something else.

Of course it's easy... because some people just make it so... thanks. :up:

We seem to agree with the fact that comic art/writing is subjective, so we can wrap this up.

I'm just calling a spade a spade.

Thanks for coming out... :up:

:yay:



Hahaha... seconded... :woot: :up:

:yay:

I'm actually defending someone's right to whine as the only way to actually affect change as a comic fan that's ever worked. If you have another method that's worked in the past I'd be all for it.

[Will Nolte]

I'm actually defending someone's right to whine as the only way to actually affect change as a comic fan that's ever worked. If you have another method that's worked in the past I'd be all for it.
Speaking with your wallet. Don't like it, don't buy it.

[moraldeficiency]

I do, or don't, but I also speak with my mouth and writing. I'm multilinguistic that way.