Whedonisms in TA

[jaymes_e06]

The ones that come to my mind first that

Dialogue-everything every character says lol

Hawkeye "staking" on of the Chitauri with one of his bolts

Fight choreography reminded me of Buffy a lot in general

Feminism:
Black Widow being such a badass

Previously worked with people:
Alexis Denisof as The Other, he's obviously an Angel Alum,
Ashley Johnson waitress who gives TA the at the end
Enver Gjookaj known from Dollhouse is a cop in the film
Chris Hemsworth obviously

Anything else I'm missing?

[Mr. Immortal]

You got all the big ones. I think Tony says ''Earth's Mightiest Heroes type thing''. That's one, yes?

[jaymes_e06]

Wonder what he'll put in for TA2 maybe a intire scooby gang reuniun. lol

[marvelrobbins]

The ones that come to my mind first that

Dialogue-everything every character says lol

Hawkeye "staking" on of the Chitauri with one of his bolts

Fight choreography reminded me of Buffy a lot in general

Feminism:
Black Widow being such a badass

Previously worked with people:
Alexis Denisof as The Other, he's obviously an Angel Alum,
Ashley Johnson waitress who gives TA the at the end
Enver Gjookaj known from Dollhouse is a cop in the film
Chris Hemsworth obviously

Anything else I'm missing?

Jeremy Renner was on episode of Angel

Alexis Denisof was on Buffy,Angel,and Dollhouse

[bonzob2000]

-- The opening cratering of the Shield facility reminded me of the cratering of Sunnydale in Buffy's finale.

-- Hero shots, like the spin around the heroes one, and the shot with Hawkeye in the front of all the team around Loki, are a Whedon specialty. He did tons of cool ones in Buffy, Angel, and Serenity.

-- When Loki was imprisoned and driving the team against each other, it reminded me when the imprisoned Angelus did much the same thing on Angel.

-- Whedon loves big monsters attacking cities. He's used them in Fray, Buffy, Angel, and Astonishing X-Men. In Fray, the main character is swallowed by the monster and then bursts through his eyeball to kill him... this reminded me of Stark's "Jonah and the Whale" routine.

The dialogue is very Whedon-y throughout, which is to be expected. Though he didn't do the Whedon thing of adding -y's to the end of words.

Lines of dialogue that struck me as particularly Whedonesque that aren't mentioned too often:

"Finally, someone who speaks English!"
"Is that what that was?"

"I watched you sleeping... I mean... I was present while you were unconscious."

"We are hopelessly, hilariously, outgunned."

[bonzob2000]

You got all the big ones. I think Tony says ''Earth's Mightiest Heroes type thing''. That's one, yes?

Oh yes. Super Whedon-y.

[The Question]

Coulson's death. Abruptly killing off beloved supporting characters right in the middle of a scene where them dying seems the least likely is something he does a lot.

[DACrowe]

I'll be honest, many of Tony's lines in this film, as well as a few of Nick Fury's, I could imagine Captain Mal Reynolds (Nathan Fillion in Firefly and Serenity) delivering with that more Whedon-y style.

A few:

"Tell me if real power wants a magazine or something."

When Tony stabs Banner and stares at him expectantly. "Nothin'?!" I can literally see Nathan Fillion making that exact expression.

"That man is playing galaca. He thought no one would notice, but we did."

"Um, Shakespeare in the park? Doesth mother know thou is wearing her drapes."

"[Nick Fury] is a spy. He is the spy. His secrets have secrets."

Broader Whedonisms that I don't just see being from that particular character:

"So that's what it does."

"He's adopted."

"There's a great schwarmma place two blocks away. I don't know what schwarmma is but I really want to try it....And then schwarmma after?"

The whole "18 percent" thing between Pepper and Tony.

"Ant, meet boot."

"I'm listening," Loki says mockingly after Thor gets knocked away.

Hulk destroying Loki in five seconds.

Coulson trying to get Cap to sign his vintage trading cards.

And on serious notes, Agent Coulson dying.

Nick Fury throwing Coulson's playing cards at Cap on the table. "I guess he never did get you to sign these." Also the lighting in that scene is very similar to a scene in Serenity, right down to the lighting.

Cap giving Nick Fury $10 dollars after the hellicarrier takes off.

The post-credits scene where they're all finally eating schwarmma in tired, awkward silence.

[jaymes_e06]

Another, the collaps of the millitary base looked like the colapse of Sunnydale.

[Drizzle]

Coulson's death. Abruptly killing off beloved supporting characters right in the middle of a scene where them dying seems the least likely is something he does a lot.
He said Marvel forced him to do that.

[pyromaniac]

Coulson's death. Abruptly killing off beloved supporting characters right in the middle of a scene where them dying seems the least likely is something he does a lot.

Well, yes, but interestingly enough, it was actually Marvel's idea. He just ran with it, and made it much more poignant naturally...

[Nokio]

The ones that come to my mind first that

Dialogue-everything every character says lol

Hawkeye "staking" on of the Chitauri with one of his bolts

Fight choreography reminded me of Buffy a lot in general

Feminism:
Black Widow being such a badass

Previously worked with people:
Alexis Denisof as The Other, he's obviously an Angel Alum,
Ashley Johnson waitress who gives TA the at the end
Enver Gjookaj known from Dollhouse is a cop in the film
Chris Hemsworth obviously

Anything else I'm missing?

you're reading too much into this. Isn't BW a badass in the comics or is she more a damsel in distress??

[Drummerdude7]

Can't believe no one mentioned the scene where Loki tries to take control of Tony and fails.

*confused face* "Usually this works..."

Tony's reply and just the sudden humour between the bad guy and good guy had me howling and totally screamed "Whedon". Reminded me of Buffy.

[jaymes_e06]

you're reading too much into this. Isn't BW a badass in the comics or is she more a damsel in distress??
It didn't have to be so well executed as it was. My point was she was a poignant member of the team and not a throw away character like most female are in action movies. This is Joss' specialty. :oldrazz:

[danoyse]

Another Whedon-esque line:

"I'm bringing the party to you."
"I don't really see how that's a party??"

[DrCosmic]

^Yes, BW was so Buffy 2.0

There was a line early in the movie that screamed Firefly to me. Fury saying something about "Has the world ended yet? Then we'll act as though it intends to spin on."

The world intending to do something, mixed with the archaic 'on' just sounded right out of Firefly, and no where else, to me.

And yeah, Marvel might have told him to kill Coulson, but Whedon did it in the most Whedonesque way possible.

[bonzob2000]

Yeah, many of Fury's lines sounded very Firefly-esque. Loki's, too. Joss really gave them a lot of the more poetic dialogue.

I believe the exact wording of that Fury line you mentioned is:

"Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on."

Such a beautiful way to phrase expository dialogue. One of many reasons why I don't get the criticisms of the opening scene.

I also liked:
"He means to bury you."
"Like the Pharaohs of old."

ETA: Fury's speech to Loki that ends in "you have made me very desperate," is very Whedon as well. He loves to undercut grand, old fashioned, poetic speeches with a more casual modern expression or two... in this case "you kill cause it's fun." Can't think of another specific example from Whedon's other work, but he does it a lot.

Lastly, I think Fury refers to the helicarrier as a "boat" at some point... very Firefly as well.

[Pink Ranger]

I felt that a lot of Bruce Banner's dialogue was written in the style of Xander Harris, if that makes any sense.

If there was a "Buffy" character is was most likely Captain America; somebody who's still getting used to his role as a hero and leader, and whose powers are still fairly new to him in many ways.

Of course, Tony Stark was a thematic combination of seasons 1-3 Cordelia, Anya, Jayne Cobb and Lorne rolled into one! :woot:

Hawkeye kind of has traits of both Mal Reynolds and Charles Gunn. And Hulk is basically Serenity River.

[Donnie Darko]

Coulson's death. Abruptly killing off beloved supporting characters right in the middle of a scene where them dying seems the least likely is something he does a lot.

When that happened, I leaned over to my friend and whispered "I am a leaf in the wind."

[Quasimod0]

So basically every single funny line was whedony? lol

[mclay18]

This Hawkeye/BW exchange stood out:

"This is like Budapest all over again!"
"You and I remember Budapest very differently."

Totally an exchange between Mal and Zoe in Firefly. :D

Also, that post-fight scene in the infirmary, where BW tells Hawkeye about how she broke him out of his spell, sounds like something Buffy would say.

[bonzob2000]

This Hawkeye/BW exchange stood out:

"This is like Budapest all over again!"
"You and I remember Budapest very differently."

Totally an exchange between Mal and Zoe in Firefly. :D

Also, that post-fight scene in the infirmary, where BW tells Hawkeye about how she broke him out of his spell, sounds like something Buffy would say.

All of this is spot on. I wish I could remember the exact line BW says, because it's hilarious and super Whedon-y.

[Vartha]

He said Marvel forced him to do that.
I'm still betting that was

an LMD and not the real deal

[The Question]

So basically every single funny line was whedony? lol

He has a distinctive sense of humor.

[Tony Stark]

I actually think RDJ's stuff was perhaps a combination of the two or Downey doing some adlib. The "what's your secret? yoga? self help tapes? a big bag of weed?" That had to have been RDJ. If you listen to RDJ talk, that sounds totally like something he would say.

I'm torn on if the galaga thing was RDJ adlibing or if Whedon threw it in.

[Rowsdower!]

Nothing in this movie reminded me of Firefly or Buffy.



Hence the reason I liked it.

[DACrowe]

^Yes, BW was so Buffy 2.0

There was a line early in the movie that screamed Firefly to me. Fury saying something about "Has the world ended yet? Then we'll act as though it intends to spin on."

The world intending to do something, mixed with the archaic 'on' just sounded right out of Firefly, and no where else, to me.

And yeah, Marvel might have told him to kill Coulson, but Whedon did it in the most Whedonesque way possible.

Oh another one of those was when Fury asked Thor, "Then, why do I feel like Loki's the only one who wants to be on this boat?"

That's very Firefly/Serenity for Fury to refer to the hellicarrier/moving aircraft as a boat.

I don't really see though how BW is "Buffy 2.0" though other than they're both women who kick ass. That's like saying River Tam is exactly like Buffy when their personalities and characters are worlds apart. BW is a strong woman character, but it's not like Whedon has a patent on that archetype. I would hope not.

[DACrowe]

Nothing in this movie reminded me of Firefly or Buffy.



Hence the reason I liked it.

See my post on page 1 and you'll realize it's a lot like his earlier stuff, at least Serenity in some ways. The only big difference (besides the superhero garb) is the story is less thematically heavy/dark and that there is only one major female role in the whole film. ;)

Also, a difference is some fanboys still complain that there is a woman in the boy's club in the movie.

[flickchick85]

There was A LOT in this that reminded me of Buffy/Angel. Only a couple lines reminded me of Firefly, though (that Budapest line was one, and Fury's dialogue with Hill in the beginning was another).

Some of Thor's dialogue reminded me of Illyria from Angel (another God on Earth). That Bildshnipe(sp?) bit could just as easily have been an exchange between Illyria and Wesley. It seems Joss has a thing about describing imaginary funny-looking creatures as having huge antlers. As I recall, that's how Spike described the chaos demon that Druisilla left him for, lol.

[Rowsdower!]

See my post on page 1 and you'll realize it's a lot like his earlier stuff, at least Serenity in some ways. The only big difference (besides the superhero garb) is the story is less thematically heavy/dark and that there is only one major female role in the whole film. ;)

Also, a difference is some fanboys still complain that there is a woman in the boy's club in the movie.

LOL, I was only being half-serious with that comment. Yeah, there are some similarities for sure, but his other stuff never clicked with me the way that this did. Maybe that's just because I've loved most of these characters for years, but regardless... Avengers was awesome.

[Joeyjojo72]

Fury, to Hill: “Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on”

Classic Whedonspeak

[DACrowe]

Also, that post-fight scene in the infirmary, where BW tells Hawkeye about how she broke him out of his spell, sounds like something Buffy would say.

A moment there of understated sentimentality felt very Whedon. It goes something like:

Hawkeye: You're acting different, Nat. Since when have you been a soldier? What did Loki do to you?
Black Widow:....I've been compromised.

It hints that there is some emotional (possibly romantic, but not necessarily) bond she has with him, but it won't go further than that. No, teasing, no shipper dialogue and nothing on the nose. Just the character underplaying it perfectly and leaving it there for the audience to see.

[bonzob2000]

LOL, I was only being half-serious with that comment. Yeah, there are some similarities for sure, but his other stuff never clicked with me the way that this did. Maybe that's just because I've loved most of these characters for years, but regardless... Avengers was awesome.

Yeah, I think you are both right. As a Joss obsessive, Avengers felt like Joss with almost every frame, and especially every line of dialogue. But I think there was something about it that made it more accessible to people who've never liked his style before.

My girlfriend can't stand Buffy, Angel, or Firefly, for instance, and tends to hate Whedon's stylized dialogue (she was more positive, but still very mixed, on Serenity, Dollhouse, Dr. Horrible, and Cabin).

And yet, she LOVED the Avengers. Like, probably more than I did even. She really wants to go see it again.

It's weird though, because she keeps saying stuff like "I love how strong Black Widow was! I love how you thought Loki was going to break her down but she was just tricking him! That was so cool!" And I want to be like "Joss does that stuff ALL THE TIME. Why do you like this but not Buffy?"

[Joeyjojo72]

To those who didnt watch Buffy/Angel/Firefly: The dialogue in the movie is completely consistent with Joss Whedon's writing style. Anyone who has watch even half a season of any of those shows can recognize his dialogue.

The fact is, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a defacto Marvel superhero show (her origin story is right out of a comic book for example). With periodic teamups with OTHER superheroes (other slayers, scientists, friendly vamps/demons, super soldiers) to boot. Between Buffy and Angel, Joss had a decade to work out the kinks. Especially the use of violence/tragedy/ and humor. Oh, and of course the dialogue.

[The Question]

I don't think the Buffy/BW comparisons are fare. Black Widow IS a badass, it's in her character. Nothing Joss brought to the table.

[Joeyjojo72]

I don't think the Buffy/BW comparisons are fare. Black Widow IS a badass, it's in her character. Nothing Joss brought to the table.

He brought every word that came out of ScarJo's mouth to the table. He brought fight scenes that are reminiscent of Buffy/Angel to the table. A lot of other people brougth their **** to the table too, but this is the JOSS WHEDON version of the character. At least as written/filmed.

BW's backstory, at least the broad strokes, are pretty cliched. Typical cold war boilerplate, with some super-science thrown in. Marvel has updated/retconned her character in the last 15 years or so, but none of that is really dealt with in the movie.

[The Question]

He brought every word that came out of ScarJo's mouth to the table. He brought fight scenes that are reminiscent of Buffy/Angel to the table. A lot of other people brougth their **** to the table too, but this is the JOSS WHEDON version of the character. At least as written/filmed.

BW's backstory, at least the broad strokes, are pretty cliched. Typical cold war boilerplate, with some super-science thrown in. Marvel has updated/retconned her character in the last 15 years or so, but none of that is really dealt with in the movie.

The fact that she used to be a spy who murdered and manipulated a lot of people before going straight is intact.

[bonoferox]

Joss' attractive girl foot fetish continued by making Natasha barefoot in her interrogation fight scene and I'm pretty sure Pepper was barefoot in her scenes.

Also *spoiler*

The scene where the Avengers are arguing and Bruce backs up only to be revealed to be holding the spear was very much what happened to River in "Objects in Space" where she picks up a stick and is then told to put down the gun. I thought it was quite brilliant.

[Joeyjojo72]

The fact that she used to be a spy who murdered and manipulated a lot of people before going straight is intact.

the definition of "broad strokes", and its the same story as every other cold war spy story. Read like ANY John LeCarre book for clarity on this point.

[Joeyjojo72]

Joss' attractive girl foot fetish continued by making Natasha barefoot in her interrogation fight scene and I'm pretty sure Pepper was barefoot in her scenes.

Also *spoiler*

The scene where the Avengers are arguing and Bruce backs up only to be revealed to be holding the spear was very much what happened to River in "Objects in Space" where she picks up a stick and is then told to put down the gun. I thought it was quite brilliant.

I think Hitchcock did this a lot. Whats that saying about great minds?

[redhawk23]

I wonder though how much influence RDJ had on some of Stark's lines. Obviously the scenes were a lot more scripted than the Iron Man films, but we all know how RDJ likes to come up with stuff and try it out.

[Suzanne78]

A very, very small line of dialogue from Tony Stark, but it's so very, very Whedon...

When they're confronting Fury in the lab, and Tony shows the weapon plans he hacked into: "Excuse me, what were you lying?"

I have to agree with the Whedonizing of BW. Sure, she's completely ass kicking in the comics, but Whedon gave her touches of humor admist the darker moments with Loki and her action scenes reminded me of Buffy's battles with Faith in season 3 and 4. Seriously, those were some fabulously choreographed moments, especially knowing the history between the two slayers.

Agreed with the Thor/Illyria parallels.

[bonzob2000]

A very, very small line of dialogue from Tony Stark, but it's so very, very Whedon...

When they're confronting Fury in the lab, and Tony shows the weapon plans he hacked into: "Excuse me, what were you lying?"

I have to agree with the Whedonizing of BW. Sure, she's completely ass kicking in the comics, but Whedon gave her touches of humor admist the darker moments with Loki and her action scenes reminded me of Buffy's battles with Faith in season 3 and 4. Seriously, those were some fabulously choreographed moments, especially knowing the history between the two slayers.

Agreed with the Thor/Illyria parallels.

Yeah, I agree with Black Widow. He didn't create the character, or the idea of "strong female characters," but the way he wrote that character was very much reminiscent of his past work. Plus, I doubt many other writers would have given her as much attention and screentime (if I'm remembering correctly, she has more screentime than Banner/Hulk, Hawkeye, and Thor).

And I didn't even catch that "what were you lying?" but it's very Whedon. I love his little linguistic twists like that. Reminds me of a line from Astonishing X-Men, where someone says the weapons they've found are "state of the art of war."

[Tony Stark]

I wonder though how much influence RDJ had on some of Stark's lines. Obviously the scenes were a lot more scripted than the Iron Man films, but we all know how RDJ likes to come up with stuff and try it out.

Yeah I very much thought RDJ was improvising on some of that. The "big bag of weed" thing had to have been RDJ.

[flickchick85]

A very, very small line of dialogue from Tony Stark, but it's so very, very Whedon...

When they're confronting Fury in the lab, and Tony shows the weapon plans he hacked into: "Excuse me, what were you lying?"

Oh yeah, I forgot about that, but I remember when I first saw it I thought the same thing. An extremely Whedon-y line.

[Saitou Hajime]

Cap vs Loki is like your standard Whedon fight where the hero fights someone stronger and gets thrown around a lot

The powerwalk (Cap, Black Widow, and Hawkeye)

Foot fetish (Black Widow)

Monster stalking the girl (Black Widow and Hawkeye)

Big Damn Heroes moments

Mood Whiplash

[Spider-X]

Nothing in this movie reminded me of Firefly or Buffy.



Hence the reason I liked it.

http://i48.tinypic.com/j79c0o.jpg

The scene where Hulk thrashes the living [golden apples] out of Loki reminds me of the scene in Firefly where Malcolm Reynolds has a guy tied up and tells him to deliver something back to his boss...the guy threatens Reynolds, so Mal just straight up kicks the guy into a jet engine. From the 2nd episode "Shindig." Freaking hilarious and amazing.

[Avenger]

http://i48.tinypic.com/j79c0o.jpg

The scene where Hulk thrashes the living [golden apples] out of Loki reminds me of the scene in Firefly where Malcolm Reynolds has a guy tied up and tells him to deliver something back to his boss...the guy threatens Reynolds, so Mal just straight up kicks the guy into a jet engine. From the 2nd episode "Shindig." Freaking hilarious and amazing.It was actually from "The Train Job," the hastily-written replacement episode for the two-hour pilot. But I agree, that was a great moment, and probably the one that sold most of us on the series. :woot:

[bonzob2000]

It was actually from "The Train Job," the hastily-written replacement episode for the two-hour pilot. But I agree, that was a great moment, and probably the one that sold most of us on the series. :woot:

Yep, it also reminded me of the Buffy season 5 finale where they set up the character of Doc (played by Cabaret's Joel Grey!) as this scary superstrong badass... he's standing in front of Buffy on a tower, the only thing between her and her sister who is about to be killed. He approaches and gives the evil villain line "well... this should be interesting" preparing to finally fight Buffy -- and she grabs him and throws him off the tower in about two seconds flat. Brilliant moment.

[Avenger]

Yep, it also reminded me of the Buffy season 5 finale where they set up the character of Doc (played by Cabaret's Joel Grey!) as this scary superstrong badass... he's standing in front of Buffy on a tower, the only thing between her and her sister who is about to be killed. He approaches and gives the evil villain line "well... this should be interesting" preparing to finally fight Buffy -- and she grabs him and throws him off the tower in about two seconds flat. Brilliant moment.Ha! Yeah, or the moment from Season Two where they've been setting up this evil child vampire as some sort of messiah for the apocalypse or something, and then Spike shows up, throws the kid in a cage, and lifts the cage up into the sunlight, turning the kid to dust. :funny:

[Spider-X]

It was actually from "The Train Job," the hastily-written replacement episode for the two-hour pilot. But I agree, that was a great moment, and probably the one that sold most of us on the series. :woot:

Son of a! I haven't watched the series in too long, and i think that was the push in needed...

also:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b359/Spider-X/badmovedude.gif

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b359/Spider-X/badmovedude-1.gif

[DACrowe]

I wonder though how much influence RDJ had on some of Stark's lines. Obviously the scenes were a lot more scripted than the Iron Man films, but we all know how RDJ likes to come up with stuff and try it out.

I imagine there was a bit of improv. But certain scenes felt so much like Whedon (like when he comes onto the bridge and makes fun of the guy playing video games, his literally poking and prodding Bruce Banner and his showdown of egos with Cap all felt very Whedon-esque). I think it may have been more collaborative than on other films.

Example: I read, I think in EW, that the scene at the end where Tony wakes up, he originally said something along the lines of "Did we win?" Downey thought there could be more there and told Joss that. Joss agreed and went and wrote like three pages of dialogue that included the "schwarmma" joke (very Whedon) and the thing about being kissed. But they shot it multiple times and had a lot of takes where Downey would riff on being pretend-excited they won.

So, there was a give-and-take. Probably much more so than on Iron Man 2, I suspect.

[DACrowe]

Son of a! I haven't watched the series in too long, and i think that was the push in needed...

also:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b359/Spider-X/badmovedude.gif

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b359/Spider-X/badmovedude-1.gif

That's missing the awesome follow-up when he interrogates bad guy #2.

Here is the full 70-second scene:

NPRlHwwVIug

For those who have never watched Firefly/Serenity (my favorite Whedon show) watch that clips. It's very amusing.

[buttercup]

Black Widow doesn't remind me of Buffy so much as Zoe from Firefly. Both are terse, tough and completely loyal soldier-types who will take zero guff from anyone. Also: when you see how scared Zoe is of the Reavers, it brings home how truly terrifying they are. Ditto Hulk; seeing Black Widow (who so casually fought three men while tired to a chair) authentically scared of Bruce Banner in India underlines how truly scary he is, even in his rumpled professor guise.

Loki vs. Hulk has echoes of Buffy taking on Glory. When Buffy in season five is fighting Glory, going to town on her with this awesome hammer, Glory's all: "you can't defeat me! I am a god!" and Buffy responds by beating her down. Heh, puny god!

Loki trying to mind-whammy Stark and failing: same thing happens in Serenity. We see an early scene of the Operative paralyzing a victim by pinching a nerve in his back. He tries the same move on Mal in their end fight, only it doesn't work because Mal had suffered a war injury that killed all sensation in that area... "This usually works."

And the Black Widow interrogation scene with Loki: pretty much every scene in the Whedonverse where a powerful male figure underestimates a woman, assuming she's weak, and she neatly flips the power dynamic around.

[Spider-X]

That's missing the awesome follow-up when he interrogates bad guy #2.

Here is the full 70-second scene:

NPRlHwwVIug

For those who have never watched Firefly/Serenity (my favorite Whedon show) watch that clips. It's very amusing.

:up:

[TheHawkeye]

All of this is spot on. I wish I could remember the exact line BW says, because it's hilarious and super Whedon-y.

After the cognitive recalibration comment, she elaborates "I hit you on the head really hard"

The pop references, Clench up Legolas, Reindeer Games, etc etc.

The whole Thor/IronMan and Cap fight in the forest was typical Whedon. "shakespeare in the park?" then at the end when everything is leveled "are we done here?"

Camera work - mirror shots, through glass shots, etc. classic Whedon style. he went as far as putting a camera into a car, have the car flip over and get the shot of what it looked like from the driver's PoV.

[Drizzle]

The pop references, Clench up Legolas, Reindeer Games, etc etc.
I'm actually hoping that was just a reference to the Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer song and not that god-awful Ben Affleck movie.

[TheHawkeye]

Oh, the "Glowstick of Destiny" was a definite Whedonism.

I'm actually hoping that was just a reference to the Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer song and not that god-awful Ben Affleck movie.

No idea, can work both ways I suppose. Unless we ask Whedon.

[Joeyjojo72]

Loki has antlers. sort of.

[Superwhat]

All of this is spot on. I wish I could remember the exact line BW says, because it's hilarious and super Whedon-y.

I believe it was:

Hawkeye: How you get me back. (Something like that)

BW: Recognitive calibration, I hit you on the head really hard.

[Superwhat]

Son of a! I haven't watched the series in too long, and i think that was the push in needed...

also:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b359/Spider-X/badmovedude.gif

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b359/Spider-X/badmovedude-1.gif

Who's that actor? He looks spot on for Ant Man.

[jaymes_e06]

Nathan Fillion he's on one of my fave shows Castle now.

[Superwhat]

Nathan Fillion he's on one of my fave shows Castle now.

I need to catch that show, I've seen it advertised but never paid attention to it.

[Avenger25]

It was kind of weired seeing a whedon production that didn't have a Grr argh at the end of the credits.

[jaymes_e06]

I need to catch that show, I've seen it advertised but never paid attention to it.
Do. It's one of those unsung treasures.

[Pink Ranger]

It was kind of weired seeing a whedon production that didn't have a Grr argh at the end of the credits.

The Hulk was in this movie, so all the Grr argh's were actually in the show. :)

[bonzob2000]

It was kind of weired seeing a whedon production that didn't have a Grr argh at the end of the credits.

It's kind of weird seeing a Whedon production that people are actually lining up to see (I say that as a fan).

[Spider-X]

It's kind of weird seeing a Whedon production that people are actually lining up to see (I say that as a fan).

I can has Serenity sequel now? :csad:


:waa:

[jaymes_e06]

It's kind of weird seeing a Whedon production that people are actually lining up to see (I say that as a fan).
I know what you mean. Whedon even wrote a "thank you" note to all his die hard fans on his website, Whedonesque.com, that stuck with him even when it wasn't the "in thing" to do like it is now.

I must say though I'm happy he's getting all this due praise and acclaimation I do miss it when it was just between me and the elite who knew how awesome he truely was. :o

[Spider-X]

jaymes e06...to your signature, I say:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b359/Spider-X/spiderhyphenman.jpg

[jaymes_e06]

Just for you SpiderX.

See what I did there? :awesome: :P

[Spider-X]

ha-ha! it's beautiful! well done :D :up:

[DACrowe]

I can has Serenity sequel now? :csad:


:waa:

If he had this hit in 2007, I'd dare to hope. But the cast is so much older and it's been so long. My silly wish is that Whedon does something middle-of-the-road in production value (kind of like Nolan and The Prestige) after his Internet movie this summer. He could write, direct and shoot it 2013 and have it released in 2014 while he's busy writing and beginning production on TA2. This said movie could be kind of like CAITW, but with mainstream appeal. Abrams had Super 8 fit this spot. Just something that helps establish his brand. Then afterThe Avengers 2 makes a bajillion dollars and is better than the first, he can use his next "down time" to have his brand push Serenity 2 into production....over ten years after Serenity came out. :(

Then, I realize that is just a ridiculous hope from a fan. Oh well.

[Doctor Jones]

Pretty much the banter, the Gallaca reference, Tony calling Thor Point Break, the early Banner scenes when he fake freaks out on BW, the scene between Loki and BW (which reminded me a lot of Silence of the Lambs) BW's characterization entirely.

[Pink Ranger]

I can has Serenity sequel now? :csad:


:waa:

Considering the skilled construction of the banter and the interdependency between characters, The Avengers was, at least spiritually, the sequel to Serenity.

[Dark Raven]

I wonder though how much influence RDJ had on some of Stark's lines. Obviously the scenes were a lot more scripted than the Iron Man films, but we all know how RDJ likes to come up with stuff and try it out.

I was wondering myself. There seems to be a bit of a blurred line between Downeyisms and Whedonisms in this movie. A lot of the lines sound like something RDJ could've come up with himself. Yet, it's almost as if the two balance each other out. Nothing is too Whedonish or Downeyish in this movie.

[mclay18]

I was wondering myself. There seems to be a bit of a blurred line between Downeyisms and Whedonisms in this movie. A lot of the lines sound like something RDJ could've come up with himself.

Whedon talked to all the previous directors (Favreau, Johnston, Branagh) about working with the different actors before filming started. So I'm sure he was aware of RDJ wanting to do ad-libs, and I think RDJ understood Whedon's approach of mostly sticking to the script.

But that line "Please tell me no one kissed me" was ad-libbed by RDJ, and that was kept in the film. But Whedon also wrote like a dozen alternate lines for RDJ to do during that scene. So they were collaborative on that end.

I think ScarJo's comments in an interview she did shows that Whedon ran a tight ship during production, script-wise. She and Renner confirmed that the script was pretty much done and polished, unlike IM-2 where they got new pages and rewrites during shooting.

[DACrowe]

Considering the skilled construction of the banter and the interdependency between characters, The Avengers was, at least spiritually, the sequel to Serenity.

I like the the crew of the Serenity better. :(

I like Avengers and am glad Joss made it, but I'd still love to see those characters one more time.

[Tony Stark]

I like the the crew of the Serenity better. :(

I like Avengers and am glad Joss made it, but I'd still love to see those characters one more time.

Won't happen. Serenity was Joss' thank you to the fans and a way to close the story on probably the most popular cult driven TV series of all time.

I can't think of another example where a show cancelled in it's first season gathered that much fan support.

[DACrowe]

If Serenity had been a hit, we would have seen a Serenity 2. Alas, it's been too long by now.

[Dark Raven]

Joss' attractive girl foot fetish continued by making Natasha barefoot in her interrogation fight scene and I'm pretty sure Pepper was barefoot in her scenes.



Is that really one of Whedon's typical traits? I thought that was Quentin Tarantino's thing. When have there been other instances of this with Whedon? I thought this was just mainly for the purpose of having Gwyneth appear shorter than RDJ, and I thought Scarlett was wearing shoes in her interrogation scene. :huh: It's not like Tarantino who usually films closeups of this.

[DACrowe]

River Tam (Summer Glau) throughout the series Firefly and the movie Serenity is barefoot. When Whedon directed episodes and the movie itself, he'd often have a close-up of her feet. Even when she was kicking ass, she'd wear intentionally oversized boots without socks and kept on her sun dresses. She's supposed to be a very "innocent" character despite all the terrible things she's done and have ben done to her.

***

Another Whedonism:

BANNER: Where are his flying monkeys?
THOR: What are these monkeys?
CAP: I got that...flying monkeys....I understood that.

Or something like that.

[jaymes_e06]

Another Whedonism:

BANNER: Where are his flying monkeys?
THOR: What are these monkeys?
CAP: I got that...flying monkeys....I understood that.

Or something like that.
Agreed. Great moment.:woot:

[flickchick85]

Is that really one of Whedon's typical traits? I thought that was Quentin Tarantino's thing. When have there been other instances of this with Whedon? I thought this was just mainly for the purpose of having Gwyneth appear shorter than RDJ, and I thought Scarlett was wearing shoes in her interrogation scene. :huh: It's not like Tarantino who usually films closeups of this.
Scarlett wasn't wearing shoes in that scene. She picked up her shoes at the end of it. Like DA pointed out, there was a lot of River Tam barefooted-ness in Firefly. And in one of the more famous Buffy episodes Joss directed, Restless, there was a conspicuously long close-up of SMG's bare feet as well. I've never heard about Joss having that particular fetish in his work, but now that it's been brought up, I think there's a fairly solid argument to be made for it.

[Dark Raven]

Scarlett wasn't wearing shoes in that scene. She picked up her shoes at the end of it. Like DA pointed out, there was a lot of River Tam barefooted-ness in Firefly. And in one of the more famous Buffy episodes Joss directed, Restless, there was a conspicuously long close-up of SMG's bare feet as well. I've never heard about Joss having that particular fetish in his work, but now that it's been brought up, I think there's a fairly solid argument to be made for it.

I saw she picked up her shoes at the end, but I thought that maybe she got out of them somehow when she began fighting her interrogators.

I have honestly never noticed this particular fetish of Whedon's before in his work. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, or rather maybe I didn't think anything of it, and it's only if someone points it out that one might start interpreting it that way.

[DACrowe]

Speaking of Whedon-esque twists. For people who liked the Hulk beating Loki, here is another twist on a cliché from Firefly. It's only 37 seconds.

S0xL6UhKxhw

And it is hilarious. In my opinion.

[Avenger]

Such a great scene. :funny:

Man, I miss that show so much. :csad:

[Pink Ranger]

Speaking of Whedon-esque twists. For people who liked the Hulk beating Loki, here is another twist on a cliché from Firefly. It's only 37 seconds.

S0xL6UhKxhw

And it is hilarious. In my opinion.

Since not a lot of people watched Firefly, they should re-do that scene in a future Avengers movie with Hawkeye for Mal and Widow for Zoey.

[TheWiseGuy487]

I saw The Avengers yesterday for the second time, and Thor saying "YOU WANT ME TO PUT THE HAMMER DOWN?!?" and leaping into the air to smash Captain America with the hammer seems so much like something Whedon would do.

[PyroChamber]

During the final battle there were a few of those far/zoom shots that were in Firefly and Senerity.

With everyone that was put in this movie, I'm surprised Summer Glau didn't have a cameo.

[Angry Sentinel]

My girlfriend can't stand Buffy, Angel, or Firefly, for instance, and tends to hate Whedon's stylized dialogue (she was more positive, but still very mixed, on Serenity, Dollhouse, Dr. Horrible, and Cabin).

And yet, she LOVED the Avengers. Like, probably more than I did even. She really wants to go see it again.

It's weird though, because she keeps saying stuff like "I love how strong Black Widow was! I love how you thought Loki was going to break her down but she was just tricking him! That was so cool!" And I want to be like "Joss does that stuff ALL THE TIME. Why do you like this but not Buffy?"Maybe, your GF has a mad-on for you-know-who and doesnt want you to know about her "LES" side, lol... just joking. With women, its always impossible to know what's really going on in that big bag of crazy cats they call their heads.

[Angry Sentinel]

I saw she picked up her shoes at the end, but I thought that maybe she got out of them somehow when she began fighting her interrogators.

I have honestly never noticed this particular fetish of Whedon's before in his work. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, or rather maybe I didn't think anything of it, and it's only if someone points it out that one might start interpreting it that way.

I think there is something real there. Whedon did an interview one time or back monologue or something I saw, and he was talking about River Tam being barfoot. He loved the "natural" feel it added to her character. Which is an very peculiar thing since most women would hate the idea because it may remind some of the "Barefoot and Pregnant" stereotypes of older times. Whedon often uses things that most people have derived as negative connotations and shows them as STRONG or STRENGTHS.. This is actually one of my favorite Whedonisms.

Sorry for the double post, didn't realize I did that

[pyromaniac]

'You can smell crazy on him' sounds like a Whedonism too. Funnily enough, I don't think Bruce Banner normally would say that, but Whedon makes it sound so natural coming from Banner. That's what I like about his dialogue: stylised yet always unique and cleverly spoken.

[jaymes_e06]

^Exactly. If he was directing Halle during her infamous "do you know what happens to a toad when it's struck by lightning" quip it would have turned out very different.

[The Question]

Maybe, your GF has a mad-on for you-know-who and doesnt want you to know about her "LES" side, lol... just joking. With women, its always impossible to know what's really going on in that big bag of crazy cats they call their heads.

That's oddly sexist for a thread about Joss Whedon's writing style. :dry:

[eddy]

Is that really one of Whedon's typical traits? I thought that was Quentin Tarantino's thing. When have there been other instances of this with Whedon? I thought this was just mainly for the purpose of having Gwyneth appear shorter than RDJ, and I thought Scarlett was wearing shoes in her interrogation scene. :huh: It's not like Tarantino who usually films closeups of this.

I was wondering where they got this idea myself but then I remembered River is always barefoot and on Dollhouse the girls are barefoot alot too and in the Angel season 5 premiere where they take over Wolfram and Hart was written and directed by Whedon and featured 2 cheesecake shots of Fred's bare feet.

http://buffyworld.com/angel/screencaps/A089/index.php?id=631

http://buffyworld.com/angel/screencaps/A089/index.php?id=653

For the record, foot fetishers creep me out so I'm hoping this is just a coincidence cause I've never noticed or seen anyone point this out about Whedon before. If anything, his love for waifish powerful girls is alot more talked about.

[Raiden]

^Exactly. If he was directing Halle during her infamous "do you know what happens to a toad when it's struck by lightning" quip it would have turned out very different.

Yeah, Bryan Singer really dropped the ball directing that scene. Even though Singer wasn't the one who wrote the script or that particular scene, the fact that he'd let Halle spoke those lines without irony while everyone saw how awkward it was shown me that at times Singer didn't get a feel for the script before he shoots the scene.

[Dark Raven]

I think there is something real there. Whedon did an interview one time or back monologue or something I saw, and he was talking about River Tam being barfoot. He loved the "natural" feel it added to her character. Which is an very peculiar thing since most women would hate the idea because it may remind some of the "Barefoot and Pregnant" stereotypes of older times. Whedon often uses things that most people have derived as negative connotations and shows them as STRONG or STRENGTHS.. This is actually one of my favorite Whedonisms.

Sorry for the double post, didn't realize I did that

Whedon ought to write a She-Hulk movie then. Not only will he always be able to have her barefoot (and it will be perfectly natural for her) but he would actually be able to give her the witty dialogue she needs. Plus she is a strong female, so it would be right up his street. Given how well he wrote Hulk, imagine what he could do with She-Hulk!

[Dark Raven]

Double post! :dry:

[Angry Sentinel]

That's oddly sexist for a thread about Joss Whedon's writing style. :dry:

First
If you take time to notice, the post you are referencing is supposed to be the first part of a 2-part post. In which, the 2-part (which is posted directly under this one also by me the Angry Sentinel) I specifically spoke about a Whedonism that not only had not been mentioned in this thread, but is often not talked about at all.

Second
I also noted, that I was joking about my inferences to the poster's girlfriend's sexual preferences.

Third
And although there is no way for you to know this, I have had MULTIPLE conversations about "Why more women did not like Buffy, or other strong female shows ala Joss Whedon" on multiple Browncoat boards. Ironically, it was the FEMALE posters who initially made the comment about women's heads being a big bag of crazy cats....to which I have chosen to agree and now share... which is my right

[Angry Sentinel]

Whedon ought to write a She-Hulk movie then. Not only will he always be able to have her barefoot (and it will be perfectly natural for her) but he would actually be able to give her the witty dialogue she needs. Plus she is a strong female, so it would be right up his street. Given how well he wrote Hulk, imagine what he could do with She-Hulk!


Actually... I have
The stories would be fantastic!! they would have real continuity. They would be grounded in the comics. She hulk would be funny, but not corny, more true to the character. She would have "heart" and practically come to life, which is why EVERYONE loves Joss writing. And I haven't even mentioned how much fun he would have with the stuff you were just talking about.

Also, I guarantee he would make another stereotypically weak character trait, her strongest one... It IS his thing!

[DACrowe]

So, because of The Avengers, I finally checked out Dollhouse. I avoided the show when it was on because the marketing made it look like a step down for Whedon, just a generic weekly procedural about Eliza Dushku kicking ass. Plus, the whole human trafficking thing with brainwashed "dolls" made me feel dirty. But after loving TA and CAITW, I decided to finally give this Whedon show a chance.

Holy ****! :eek:

I've been watching this show very slowly for three or four weeks. The first five episodes were what I thought the ads made it look like and I was kind of bored with the show. But by episode 6 of S1? The show just kicked it into overdrive. I watched Episode 8 of S1 all the way to the series finale (19 episodes) in a week. The show literally got better and better with every episode. It freaking blew my mind the way it used Alan Tudyk and Amy Acker. The moral implications of all the characters and the questions about identity and self-image/creation got wonderfully tricky and messed up. I have to give extra praise for Topher (Fran Kranz) being played as an almost childlike Dr. Frankenstein who only starts realizing the horror of his genius until it's way too late. Olivia Williams also as the "cold *****" Adelle was amazing.

The show did have its problems. I thought some of the acting, strange for a Whedon production, was a bit spotty (guy who played Paul, I'm looking at you). Also, there were quite a few plot holes. Especially in the second season where they had to rush Adelle's character arc as they knew that it'd be the last season and they crammed about 2-3 years worth of story into that final season. There is also that twist in those final episodes of who the big bad mastermind is. The twist felt more like a gimmick to me, because they needed a mastermind whom the audience would have an immediate reaction to. But it doesn't really hold up that well with S2 and not at all with S1. Also, that character's motivations for getting everyone to Tucson felt very forced.

Still, an amazing series with a breathtaking ending. Besides that complaint I had above, there were more twists that did work and had me stunned like Dr. Saunders putting a bullet in Summer Glau's brain! :eek: My jaw hit the floor and I nearly fell out of my chair! Also, the real final episode wrapped up everything so nicely. It brought real closure to Echo/Caroline's arc, Topher's self-realization and everything else.

This was an outstanding show that was about far more than ass-kicking girls and seedy sexual fantasy. It imagines a technology that is scary and world-shattering and the countless applications for it. It also explores what it means to be an individual and have an identity. Choice and free will, etc. It was a great show and I wish I watched when it was on the air, because it's one of the best shows I'd seen. And unlike Firefly, I'm completely fine with its ending. There was closure. I think another season or two could have made Adelle and Boyd's arcs breathe as well as given us more great use of Alpha. However, as a whole it worked. Just a fantastic show.

[Angry Sentinel]

no-one ever talks about Dollhouse.. I thought it was because no-one ever watched it. Guess i was right, lol. Yeah, that show really had purpose. It was WAY better than I thought it would be. I agree with you about some of the issues Season 2 faced, but again, they knew they were cancelled so Whedon (once again) had to turn the 5 year plan into 5 episodes and that just aint right (looking at you FOX).

[Raiden]

I might check out Dollhouse one of these days, just of the glowing reviews you guys gave it, and also because I'm a fan of Eliza Dushku (I love her ever since she played Faith in Buffy). Hopefully after the success of TA, Whedon will be given more creative freedom and leeway in the shows that he develops for TV.

[DACrowe]

no-one ever talks about Dollhouse.. I thought it was because no-one ever watched it. Guess i was right, lol. Yeah, that show really had purpose. It was WAY better than I thought it would be. I agree with you about some of the issues Season 2 faced, but again, they knew they were cancelled so Whedon (once again) had to turn the 5 year plan into 5 episodes and that just aint right (looking at you FOX).

Yeah. I think the premise was honestly the most challenging one Whedon has taken on to date--a story about protagonists who (mostly) don't remember who they are from week-to-week and are basically pawns in a sex trafficking operation. And the protagonists who are not victims of this are either pimps, madams or boy-geinus Frankensteins who make it possible. It's that kindo f shady premise (and the cheesy promos that made it look like "see Eliza Dushku kick ass between shower scenes!") that kept me away. But it's interest is much larger in the question of identity and self-image, the question of free-will and also the idea of a technology being able to manipulate that and the weaponized escalation that could create. I actually enjoyed it more than Buffy, despite its flaws.

I might check out Dollhouse one of these days, just of the glowing reviews you guys gave it, and also because I'm a fan of Eliza Dushku (I love her ever since she played Faith in Buffy). Hopefully after the success of TA, Whedon will be given more creative freedom and leeway in the shows that he develops for TV.

I recommend it. But the first five episodes are slow and kitschy. Just stick with it. By episode 8 you should be hooked and if you don't love the show by the end of the first season...well don't watch the second season. :oldrazz:

But seriously, I don't think that will be a problem with this show.

[Dark Raven]

I was wondering where they got this idea myself but then I remembered River is always barefoot and on Dollhouse the girls are barefoot alot too and in the Angel season 5 premiere where they take over Wolfram and Hart was written and directed by Whedon and featured 2 cheesecake shots of Fred's bare feet.

http://buffyworld.com/angel/screencaps/A089/index.php?id=631 (http://buffyworld.com/angel/screencaps/A089/index.php?id=631)

http://buffyworld.com/angel/screencaps/A089/index.php?id=653 (http://buffyworld.com/angel/screencaps/A089/index.php?id=653)

For the record, foot fetishers creep me out so I'm hoping this is just a coincidence cause I've never noticed or seen anyone point this out about Whedon before. If anything, his love for waifish powerful girls is alot more talked about.

Eh, I honestly don't think those are "cheesecake shots of Fred's bare feet" IMO. Yes, they feature her in bare feet, but I think that's coincidental, because I think that it's more a cheesecake shot of Fred in general than of a specific bodypart. The fact that she is in bare feet is more for the aesthetic look that it gives her long legs. Imagine sticking a pair of socks on the end of that. It would break up that aesthetic, and as Whedon himself has said in one of those posts quoted above, it does give a more natural feel.


And yes, the girls in Dollhouse were often in barefeet at the end when they went to sleep but again, isn't that natural? It just would look odd for them to go to sleep in their pods in socks when it's meant to show them returning to a natural, innocent state. And yes, River Tam was always in barefeet in Firefly, but again I think that's meant to hint at her character (she was an innocent character who might've been naked in that pod at the start in the pilot - I can't remember if she was though).


I honestly don't think it's a Whedonism in the same way as Tarantino's gratuitous closeup shots of women's bare feet are Tarantino-isms (or is that Tarantisms?). It just seems to serve more of a purpose than for nothing more than pure titilation.

[flickchick85]

I might check out Dollhouse one of these days, just of the glowing reviews you guys gave it, and also because I'm a fan of Eliza Dushku (I love her ever since she played Faith in Buffy). Hopefully after the success of TA, Whedon will be given more creative freedom and leeway in the shows that he develops for TV.
Despite it being my least-favorite Whedon show, I still completely love Dollhouse, and it's DEFINITELY worth checking out. As I said in the Dollhouse thread, I agree with DA's review, flaws and all (though it doesn't top Buffy for me like it does for him).

The show didn't really get going 'til episode 6, which, as all the Whedonites knew before the show even started airing, was the moment when Fox stepped back and let them do their thing. I will say though, if you're a Dushku fan, you may be a bit disappointed. She was MUCH better in Buffy. In Dollhouse, she's kinda the weak link, but that's ok because the rest of the ensemble (minus Tamoh Penikett/Paul) is so damn awesome. There was some real chameleon-like acting going on in that show, particularly from Enver Gjokaj, who may have been the best actor Whedon's ever had in one of his shows, so it was nice to see him get a nice little cameo in Avengers.

[jaymes_e06]

So, because of The Avengers, I finally checked out Dollhouse. I avoided the show when it was on because the marketing made it look like a step down for Whedon, just a generic weekly procedural about Eliza Dushku kicking ass. Plus, the whole human trafficking thing with brainwashed "dolls" made me feel dirty. But after loving TA and CAITW, I decided to finally give this Whedon show a chance.

Holy ****! :eek:

I've been watching this show very slowly for three or four weeks. The first five episodes were what I thought the ads made it look like and I was kind of bored with the show. But by episode 6 of S1? The show just kicked it into overdrive. I watched Episode 8 of S1 all the way to the series finale (19 episodes) in a week. The show literally got better and better with every episode. It freaking blew my mind the way it used Alan Tudyk and Amy Acker. The moral implications of all the characters and the questions about identity and self-image/creation got wonderfully tricky and messed up. I have to give extra praise for Topher (Fran Kranz) being played as an almost childlike Dr. Frankenstein who only starts realizing the horror of his genius until it's way too late. Olivia Williams also as the "cold *****" Adelle was amazing.

The show did have its problems. I thought some of the acting, strange for a Whedon production, was a bit spotty (guy who played Paul, I'm looking at you). Also, there were quite a few plot holes. Especially in the second season where they had to rush Adelle's character arc as they knew that it'd be the last season and they crammed about 2-3 years worth of story into that final season. There is also that twist in those final episodes of who the big bad mastermind is. The twist felt more like a gimmick to me, because they needed a mastermind whom the audience would have an immediate reaction to. But it doesn't really hold up that well with S2 and not at all with S1. Also, that character's motivations for getting everyone to Tucson felt very forced.

Still, an amazing series with a breathtaking ending. Besides that complaint I had above, there were more twists that did work and had me stunned like Dr. Saunders putting a bullet in Summer Glau's brain! :eek: My jaw hit the floor and I nearly fell out of my chair! Also, the real final episode wrapped up everything so nicely. It brought real closure to Echo/Caroline's arc, Topher's self-realization and everything else.

This was an outstanding show that was about far more than ass-kicking girls and seedy sexual fantasy. It imagines a technology that is scary and world-shattering and the countless applications for it. It also explores what it means to be an individual and have an identity. Choice and free will, etc. It was a great show and I wish I watched when it was on the air, because it's one of the best shows I'd seen. And unlike Firefly, I'm completely fine with its ending. There was closure. I think another season or two could have made Adelle and Boyd's arcs breathe as well as given us more great use of Alpha. However, as a whole it worked. Just a fantastic show.
Dollhouse was amazing! Eliza Dushku gives a tor de force proformance as Echo. Not only her but everyone in the cast sparkles. The atmosphere It was, on the contrary one of Joss' better ideas.

The part about Dollhouse that sucks is the fact that it started out kind of slow but when it kicked in the later part of the first season it hit it's stride and never let up. I like that show just as much as all his other creations. It's definately not a throwaway show.

[Sawyer]

The team verbally going at it with one another felt perfectly Whedon.

[Son of Coul]

The way Pepper was like "Hi, Phil" was SO Whedony! Only Joss!

:oldrazz:

[jaymes_e06]

Another: The "Take that all away what do you got" line Cap says to IM is very simular to what Angelus says to Buffy in BTVS.

[Joeyjojo72]

My ex still bugs me about watching Dollhouse. I love Whedon, huge fan, but he shouldve been savvy enough by now to know he needed to blow people away right off the bat.

Slow was not an option and he shouldve known that. That said, I'm gonna watch the entire run of Dollhouse over the next few weeks.

[Avenger]

My ex still bugs me about watching Dollhouse. I love Whedon, huge fan, but he shouldve been savvy enough by now to know he needed to blow people away right off the bat.

Slow was not an option and he shouldve known that. That said, I'm gonna watch the entire run of Dollhouse over the next few weeks.The series started off slow because of Fox. The original pilot that Whedon filmed covered just about all of the territory they ended up covering in the first five episodes (which are generally regarded as the weakest), but Fox made Whedon slow things down to make it "easier" for the audience to follow.

[Drummerdude7]

Great shows always end up on the wrong networks, and suffer because of it.

(RIP Awake.) Damn NBC.

[flickchick85]

My ex still bugs me about watching Dollhouse. I love Whedon, huge fan, but he shouldve been savvy enough by now to know he needed to blow people away right off the bat.

Slow was not an option and he shouldve known that. That said, I'm gonna watch the entire run of Dollhouse over the next few weeks.
Like Avenger said, that was totally Fox's doing. Whedon had to completely throw out his original pilot because Fox thought it was too "dense" (which is Fox code for "complex." See: Ron Moore's excellent Virtuality pilot), had too much information and too much happening for mainstream viewers to follow. So they asked him to simplify it and spread all that stuff across the first few episodes and make them otherwise more stand-alone/newbie-friendly. That's why he warned his fans way before the series started airing that Episode 6 is where they were allowed to get on with it. From what I understand, that episode is basically where the original pilot would have ended.

[Joeyjojo72]

thanks for the info guys. i think i remember hearing somehting similar at the time, but i didnt take it as gospel. lol hopefully he now realizes that Whedon and Fox do not mix.

of course this means my ex was probably right. sigh.

[flickchick85]

thanks for the info guys. i think i remember hearing somehting similar at the time, but i didnt take it as gospel. lol hopefully he now realizes that Whedon and Fox do not mix.
Haha, I think he knew that before Dollhouse, tbh. It was Eliza Dushku who had a development contract w/ Fox and went to Joss, asking him to create a show for her. I have a feeling that if it were his baby that he was taking around and pitching to the networks, Fox would have been his last choice to take it to, lol.

[DACrowe]

Dollhouse was amazing! Eliza Dushku gives a tor de force proformance as Echo. Not only her but everyone in the cast sparkles. The atmosphere It was, on the contrary one of Joss' better ideas.

The part about Dollhouse that sucks is the fact that it started out kind of slow but when it kicked in the later part of the first season it hit it's stride and never let up. I like that show just as much as all his other creations. It's definately not a throwaway show.

Yep. Dushku gets a lot of criticism for that show, but despite having a limited range (not as much as the actors who played Victor and Sierra), she did a very good job of carrying the show as its charismatic lead and had episodes where she could surprise you. One of my favorites was a S1 episode that Joss wrote (the "Our Mrs. Reynolds" of Dollhouse) where she is imprinted with the brain of a late-50-something Northeast blue blood. Her interactions with "her" son and not-so-mourning family was hilarious.

I do think that the strongest performances in the series were Victor, Topher, Adelle and Sierra, but Dushku/Echo anchored the story very well. Just my opinion.

[DACrowe]

My ex still bugs me about watching Dollhouse. I love Whedon, huge fan, but he shouldve been savvy enough by now to know he needed to blow people away right off the bat.

Slow was not an option and he shouldve known that. That said, I'm gonna watch the entire run of Dollhouse over the next few weeks.

Hope you love it. Firefly is still my favorite Whedon show, but this became a good second. And, unlike the 'Verse, the story is given closure in its second season. You get all the beats the story was going to hit, it's just 2 seasons instead of something like 6.

Also, the first five episodes are slow. I almost quit, but then episode 6 hooked me in. And by episode 8 I was addicted. Let us know if you like the show after you get far into it.

[Joeyjojo72]

Okay thanks. Ill post a brief, technically off-topic review once ive seen the whole run.

[jaymes_e06]

Yep. Dushku gets a lot of criticism for that show, but despite having a limited range (not as much as the actors who played Victor and Sierra), she did a very good job of carrying the show as its charismatic lead and had episodes where she could surprise you. One of my favorites was a S1 episode that Joss wrote (the "Our Mrs. Reynolds" of Dollhouse) where she is imprinted with the brain of a late-50-something Northeast blue blood. Her interactions with "her" son and not-so-mourning family was hilarious.

I do think that the strongest performances in the series were Victor, Topher, Adelle and Sierra, but Dushku/Echo anchored the story very well. Just my opinion.
Agreed.:yay:

[shieldmaiden]

I'm a big fan of Whedon's work...

I hope Captain America (my fave) never loses his idealism... because that's Malcolm Reynolds to a T. Broken, but still honorable. The perfect tragic hero. I <3 Mal. But I <3 Cap too... and don't want to see him broken. In a way, I'm glad that it's not too likely these writers/directors would ever do anything too radical to any of these beloved "old school" characters... because if Cap ever had a really GOOD look at what "his country" has become, it'd be like that scene in the Firefly pilot when Mal calls for reinforcements, believes God will save him and avenge his destroyed planet... and they never come. He's just standing there, wrecked, while his whole world comes down around him.

(As an aside, I'm glad he and Tony called out Fury on his lies and how dirty S.H.I.E.L.D. is.)

Also, Black Widow had a line that really reminded me of Inara. When she was going to jump up onto one of the flyers, she said "Yeah, sure. It'll be fun." She sounded just like her, with delivery and pitch... so tired, and a little vulnerable. It made me smile.

I loved Buffy, too... I didn't get around to watching any of those until after I'd seen Firefly. I thought that if it was THAT popular, it was probably gonna suck. :) Anyway, I wasn't disappointed, and ended up being a big damn fan.

I wish all life's little problems were easily solved by jamming a stake through 'em... ;)

[Pink Ranger]

Banner kind of reminds me of Xander/Wash. Their self-depracating sense of humour, and the fact that they're all characters of seemingly little power or combat ability at first, but often end up saving the entire team at the end.

[shieldmaiden]

Banner kind of reminds me of Xander/Wash. Their self-depracating sense of humour, and the fact that they're all characters of seemingly little power or combat ability at first, but often end up saving the entire team at the end.

Oh... good call on that one! :woot:

[pyromaniac]

I loved Buffy, too... I didn't get around to watching any of those until after I'd seen Firefly. I thought that if it was THAT popular, it was probably gonna suck. :) Anyway, I wasn't disappointed, and ended up being a big damn fan.

I wish all life's little problems were easily solved by jamming a stake through 'em... ;)

But Buffy was only popular in the cult status circuit. It wasn't so far to the point that it became 'overrated' and 'over-hyped' and a 'commercial blockbuster'. :p Its impact is more layered, subtle but much more rewarding in the process. There is always something to discuss, to think about, to debate for years and years to come. It isn't like Avatar or Titanic, when the story was basic, and only characters' interactions, motive, circumstances etc drive it to a fairly neatly wrapped up conclusion.

That said, 'Into every generation a slayer is born...'

[shieldmaiden]

But Buffy was only popular in the cult status circuit. It wasn't so far to the point that it became 'overrated' and 'over-hyped' and a 'commercial blockbuster'. :p Its impact is more layered, subtle but much more rewarding in the process. There is always something to discuss, to think about, to debate for years and years to come. It isn't like Avatar or Titanic, when the story was basic, and only characters' interactions, motive, circumstances etc drive it to a fairly neatly wrapped up conclusion.

That said, 'Into every generation a slayer is born...'

Yeah, once I dug into it, I really loved it. So nuanced.

Frankly, Whedon's an inspiration. I hope that some day I can have just a shred of that man's storytelling ability. I'm working on 2 novels and have an idea for a screenplay... and it's scary. I always worry about doing my characters justice.

[pyromaniac]

We're cut from the same cloth! Me too! Not so much as a screenplay (I figure I'll come to that down the track, but I do have some film background) but am trying to work on the novels. Emphasis on the trying. :p

We definitely should compare notes. :D

By the way, have you seen Angel? My favourite is its last season. It's on par with the best seasons of Buffy. I LOVE it. Sooo consistently amazing, and you really feel for their incredible character arcs and growth.

[shieldmaiden]

We're cut from the same cloth! Me too! Not so much as a screenplay (I figure I'll come to that down the track, but I do have some film background) but am trying to work on the novels. Emphasis on the trying. :p

We definitely should compare notes. :D

By the way, have you seen Angel? My favourite is its last season. It's on par with the best seasons of Buffy. I LOVE it. Sooo consistently amazing, and you really feel for their incredible character arcs and growth.

Yeah, I sure did! Since I came to the series after they were already out on DVD, I was able to see them in the order they aired. It was kind of a cool way to do it, and I liked how the stories compared.

As for comparing notes... my contact info's in a PM. :)

[yads]

By the way, have you seen Angel? My favourite is its last season. It's on par with the best seasons of Buffy. I LOVE it. Sooo consistently amazing, and you really feel for their incredible character arcs and growth.

I love Angel season 5 so very, very much. For me, the run of episodes from 'You're Welcome' to 'Not Fade Away' is genuinely the best run of TV episodes I've ever seen. Incredibly dramatic, tragic (A Hole in the World), hilarious (Smile Time), with the greatest scene in TV history in the middle (Wes and Illyria's chat at the end of Shells), plus a contender for best finale ever (although Six Feet Under's finale was also mind-blowing).

Over 5 seasons Angel is a little hit and miss, not always great but always worth the effort - but it goes out with an unbelievable bang.

[TomPiltoff]

in the Angel season 5 premiere where they take over Wolfram and Hart was written and directed by Whedon and featured 2 cheesecake shots of Fred's bare feet.

http://buffyworld.com/angel/screencaps/A089/index.php?id=631

http://buffyworld.com/angel/screencaps/A089/index.php?id=653
Eh, I honestly don't think those are "cheesecake shots of Fred's bare feet" IMO.

:funny: For real, how anybody could think that based on those screen caps is beyond me. There's no more a focus on her feet than her legs, arms, head, hair, those two lights in the background, the files on the floor...

[Silvermoon]

since this post is kind of about Whedon's past projects and how bits of them may have ended up in Avengers, I figured this was the best place for it. My apologies if this has been mentioned before, but this past weekend I decided to start rewatching Buffy from the beginning and there was a small word said in an episode that I couldn't help but laugh at when I heard it (after having seen Avengers). In the episode "Teacher's Pet", Xander is rambling to Miss French in his nervousness and he mentions shawarma. So Avengers is not the first time that Whedon has thrown a shawarma joke in *lol*

Like I said, just thought I would mention it :woot:

[jaymes_e06]

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/7684/20120508theavengersshaw.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/20120508theavengersshaw.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
;)

[Pink Ranger]

since this post is kind of about Whedon's past projects and how bits of them may have ended up in Avengers, I figured this was the best place for it. My apologies if this has been mentioned before, but this past weekend I decided to start rewatching Buffy from the beginning and there was a small word said in an episode that I couldn't help but laugh at when I heard it (after having seen Avengers). In the episode "Teacher's Pet", Xander is rambling to Miss French in his nervousness and he mentions shawarma. So Avengers is not the first time that Whedon has thrown a shawarma joke in *lol*

Like I said, just thought I would mention it :woot:

Hmmm, shawarma ... Miss French ... giant insect in disguise ... OMG, the shawarma shop is run by The Brood! Get out of there, Tony!! :eek:

[Joeyjojo72]

Just wanted to report in on my Dollhouse viewing. Ive watched all but the finale of Season 1 (including the pilot), and Im definitely hooked. The first 5 eps were a bit rough, and the unaired pilot caused some confusion, but so far so good.

I think the biggest limitation of the show is the acting. Whedons dialogue can be challenging, and the actors dont always pull it off. Given the story though, it actually works most of the time because the characters are "acting".

Now SMG isnt exactly oscar caliber herself, but the show still worked because of the character she was playing, and because of the built in irony of the show's premise. Ms. Dushku has a lot more heavy lifting than SMG, and at times her skills arent quite up to the task. That said, the show still works because every show is about a performance within a performance.

Ill check in after ive watched season 2.

Silvermoon, great catch! Forgot that one.

[flickchick85]

Glad to hear you're enjoying the show, Joeyjojo!

And I agree about Dushku. Like I said when Dollhouse was first brought up in this thread, Dushku was easily the weak link in an otherwise great show. Tamoh Penikett also sucked just much as he did on BSG. However, I do think the show otherwise contains some of the best acting ever in a Whedon show - particularly from Enver Gjokaj (Victor) and Franz Kranz (Topher). I think they'll really impress you in the 2nd season. Olivia Williams, Dichen Lachman and Alan Tudyk were also really good.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on S2!

[Avenger]

Enver Gjokaj was ridiculously good in Dollhouse. It's a shame that he hasn't seemed to have landed any regular roles since then, just small parts in movies and a few guest spots on TV. But with his skills and talent, I'm sure he'll do fine.

I agree that Dushku and Penikett were the weak links in the cast, but I think Dushku still did decently overall. Penikett, though...meh. I liked him (most of the time) in BSG, but he just felt really out of place in Dollhouse.

[Dark Raven]

Enver Gjokaj should be in a superhero movie (and Avengers doesn't count). He needs to be in one where he's an actual super powered guy. Not sure who.

[jaymes_e06]

Glad to hear you're enjoying the show, Joeyjojo!

And I agree about Dushku. Like I said when Dollhouse was first brought up in this thread, Dushku was easily the weak link in an otherwise great show. Tamoh Penikett also sucked just much as he did on BSG. However, I do think the show otherwise contains some of the best acting ever in a Whedon show - particularly from Enver Gjokaj (Victor) and Franz Kranz (Topher). I think they'll really impress you in the 2nd season. Olivia Williams, Dichen Lachman and Alan Tudyk were also really good.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on S2!
Agreed to all. The thing of it is she does the best job in acting she's ever done that's why it interesting to watch. Victor was by far the best performance of all though.

[Joeyjojo72]

Enver (Victor) is definitely the best so far. A real talent. Hope he gets bigger roles in the future. The actress who plays Sierra is very good with accents, but shes not very good with facial expressions imo. Tudyk was fantastic in the finale (totally didnt see it coming), funny and scary.

And I agree that whatshisface from BSG doesnt have much range, but thats not a killer. And after Season 1 I still have no idea what Boyd's motivation is. Also, Im having some trouble understanding why Ballard would agree to work for The Dollhouse. I get it, but just barely.

I dont want to poop on Dushku completely. Shes certainly game (and nice to look at btw), and she can be good as certain "characters". Frankly, I have to lay some of the blame on the writers including Whedon. Its his job to know his actors' strengths and weaknesses and to tailor the scripts accordingly.

All that said, Dollhouse is such an interesting experiment, and theres always something fresh and interesting about each episode, that I find it rewarding and worth my time. Thanks for the push.

Side not: I found ED to be almost painfully thin in the first season, and I was glad that she seemed "healthier" in the 2nd season (so far). I guess that makes me superficial,but its something i noticed and it bothered me a bit.