Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 4

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is 378159

[ChickenScratch]

Nothing as drastic as killing Joff. We just see that Jamie really is the White Knight, not some dude in cream or off white or leather like on the show. I seriously think they are trying to keep him from wearing the whites for real yet, cuz even when he's in uniform it's still not quite right.

Remember he grew up on the stories of the great knights of the watch before him and he had the luck of being around some of the greatest knights till the king and Ned dies and Dondarion and Selamy are gone.

[mr. peasant]

Except that's what they're doing. :dry: I don't see your point. They're changing and adapting the story as needs-be for the limitations of television. They're still staying true to the overarching plot, because the intricate plot is what makes GOT unique. They'll adapt it to their sensibilities, pay-cable's, and the logistics and budgeting of TV, but they're not going to ditch the story all-together because then it just becomes a pointless endeavour to start

No, they're not. They are doing as you described - which is sticking to the events in the books and only changing minor parts only when absolutely necessary; sometimes to the point of occasionally lifting whole dialogue straight from the source material.

All other successful TV adaptations, meanwhile, take the base premise, characters and setting and run with it to do their own thing - straying completely from the events of the original source material after the initial setup. They sometimes come back somewhere down the road to borrow threads or subplots from the source material but since the character and story progressions are different, things play out differently, etc. By doing it this way, the TV version has the freedom to adjust their ideas and adapt to what works, the chemistry between actors/characters, interesting character reinterpretations, and what the audience responds to - just as how the creator of the original source material did whilst developing his/her own story.

[ChickenScratch]

I still don't see your problem with adapting a literary piece as written. I hate saying it, but if you've not read it you don't know the density of the material or how hard it is to adapt just from the way it is written.

How much should be cut from a War and Peace adaptation? Crime And Punishment? Le Mis? What do you want to change in these huge interconnected pieces of work where one bit changes collapses the whole house.

[Spidey-Bat]

All other successful TV adaptations, meanwhile, take the base premise, characters and setting and run with it to do their own thing - straying completely from the events of the original source material after the initial setup.

What successful TV adaptations are these?

[mr. peasant]

I still don't see your problem with adapting a literary piece as written. I hate saying it, but if you've not read it you don't know the density of the material or how hard it is to adapt just from the way it is written.

How much should be cut from a War and Peace adaptation? Crime And Punishment? Le Mis? What do you want to change in these huge interconnected pieces of work where one bit changes collapses the whole house.

Everything. You've outlined the very reason for this. As has been established through previous argumentation (e.g. can't ensure all actors are willing to stay the entire duration of the series, cost and logistics issues, pacing issues, etc) and from GRRM's own admission (focused on writing to tell stories that couldn't readily be told through the television medium), the creators can't guarantee that A Song of Ice and Fire can be adapted wholly and accurately as written. And since a slight change here or there can 'collapse the whole house' as you say, it would be much safer to have built a different house instead and duplicate only the original foundation since that's fairly solid and doing so far more practical.


What successful TV adaptations are these?

True Blood, Vampire Diaries, Gossip Girl, Smallville, X-Men: Evolution, Batman: TAS, virtually all cartoon adaptations of comics for that matter, all reboots of old TV shows... the list goes on.

[Oberon sexton]

You know, I'm definitely going to get flamed for this but...I dont consider Jaime's Twincest to be an "evil" act, I mean yes incest is wrong but in this case it was between to consenting adults and in Westeros there is president for this sort of thing with the Targaryen's marrying brother to sister for hundreds of years, passing the kids off as Roberts now..that's something to take issue with.

[The Sage]

This show makes me appreciate Tywin Lannister even more than when I read the first two books. I really dig the scenes between him and Arya.

I still need to finish the 3rd book. Hopefully I will before next season.

[FVD]

Regarding Jaime. He used to be one of my most despised characters after what he did to Bran. I was glad when he got captured by Robb. But now with what I've read so far he's really becoming more interesting as the Series goes on. Currently halfway through ASoS2 and man I just love his chapter when he was getting answers out of his fellow Knights including Ser Loras Tyrell with regards to who actually killed Joffrey. Hope he reunites with Tyrion soon.

[ChickenScratch]

Everything. You've outlined the very reason for this. As has been established through previous argumentation (e.g. can't ensure all actors are willing to stay the entire duration of the series, cost and logistics issues, pacing issues, etc) and from GRRM's own admission (focused on writing to tell stories that couldn't readily be told through the television medium), the creators can't guarantee that A Song of Ice and Fire can be adapted wholly and accurately as written. And since a slight change here or there can 'collapse the whole house' as you say, it would be much safer to have built a different house instead and duplicate only the original foundation since that's fairly solid and doing so far more practical.
True Blood, Vampire Diaries, Gossip Girl, Smallville, X-Men: Evolution, Batman: TAS, virtually all cartoon adaptations of comics for that matter, all reboots of old TV shows... the list goes on.

So if it's too complex chuck the whole thing and call it by the same name because the people who have not read the books can feel in on it? Simplify it, streamline, make it more Tv friendly, might as well be Merlin.

Yes, I am aware they have adapted shows before (but thanks for pointing that out). But each and every adaptation is an individual case and cannot be treated or adhered to on the same level.

You cannot change stuff in a story that hangs on not the big battles like most fantasy or action scenes. The game is in the castle intrigue, the boring talking parts You and Matt seem to not like. Except that's the story, every line is important.

[mr. peasant]

So if it's too complex chuck the whole thing and call it by the same name because the people who have not read the books can feel in on it? Simplify it, streamline, make it more Tv friendly, might as well be Merlin.

Yes, I am aware they have adapted shows before (but thanks for pointing that out). But each and every adaptation is an individual case and cannot be treated or adhered to on the same level.

You cannot change stuff in a story that hangs on not the big battles like most fantasy or action scenes. The game is in the castle intrigue, the boring talking parts You and Matt seem to not like. Except that's the story, every line is important.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the 'talking parts' such as the interactions between Arya and Tywin. What I dislike about the situation is that I know nothing can come out of it since it's not in the books.

The strong point about the books is not knowing how things - even the big, major things - will turn out. That can't be the case for the TV series since it is known exactly how things will turn out.

[Spidey-Bat]

True Blood, Vampire Diaries, Gossip Girl, Smallville, X-Men: Evolution, Batman: TAS, virtually all cartoon adaptations of comics for that matter, all reboots of old TV shows... the list goes on.

You can't use comic adaptations to make the argument that a show should bdo its own thing with the source. Comics are getting retconned and rebooted all the time. Trying to keep track of it all would be a waste of time for the writers. But something like a novel series like ASOIAF should stay as close to it as it can. Each book/season is not its own story arc.

[Poeman]

h9Tg2YkbhOg

Just epic stuff when they played that music at the end of the episode...Awesome

[OsGom]

You know, I'm definitely going to get flamed for this but...I dont consider Jaime's Twincest to be an "evil" act, I mean yes incest is wrong but in this case it was between to consenting adults and in Westeros there is president for this sort of thing with the Targaryen's marrying brother to sister for hundreds of years, passing the kids off as Roberts now..that's something to take issue with.

I'm actually going to agree with you. The act itself is not "evil" as I recall their relationship started innocently enough when they were very young. What the twins did to carry-on and hide that realtionship after Cersei was married, that's evil.

[Poeman]

Btw, I actually considered episode 7 one of the best so far...The dialogue and acting was just superb.

[mr. peasant]

You can't use comic adaptations to make the argument that a show should bdo its own thing with the source. Comics are getting retconned and rebooted all the time. Trying to keep track of it all would be a waste of time for the writers. But something like a novel series like ASOIAF should stay as close to it as it can. Each book/season is not its own story arc.

At any one point, there's only one official canon for a given comic franchise.

Even going by your restrictions, all successful, multi-season TV adaptations (as opposed to a one-off miniseries that doesn't have to worry about future planning such as whether an actor will return/be available several years down the line) of books (i.e. True Blood, Vampire Diaries, Gossip Girl, Sherlock (if you're willing to consider it successful this early in its run)) depart significantly from the source material plot-wise; creating their own twists and developments).

[Matt]

Don't forget the most successful show on cable, The Walking Dead. It is following the general structure of the story but creating plots and twists of it's own and developing the characters to fit the medium rather than stubbornly sticking to the source material (no matter how ill fitting).

[DACrowe]

No, they're not. They are doing as you described - which is sticking to the events in the books and only changing minor parts only when absolutely necessary; sometimes to the point of occasionally lifting whole dialogue straight from the source material.

All other successful TV adaptations, meanwhile, take the base premise, characters and setting and run with it to do their own thing - straying completely from the events of the original source material after the initial setup. They sometimes come back somewhere down the road to borrow threads or subplots from the source material but since the character and story progressions are different, things play out differently, etc. By doing it this way, the TV version has the freedom to adjust their ideas and adapt to what works, the chemistry between actors/characters, interesting character reinterpretations, and what the audience responds to - just as how the creator of the original source material did whilst developing his/her own story.

And Game of Thrones should do this....why? Just because "all other successful TV adaptations" do? So what? Benioff and Weiss have said repeatedly they're trying to do something unique on television (Rome tried but failed under its own budget and vision after two seasons), which is create dozens and dozens of hours of cinema-quality television with one long story. The point is doing it differently.

Also, given how complex the stories are, I think it's best for now they stay close to the books. At least through the first four seasons. Look at True Blood. It branched off after its first season and went downhill quick by Season 3. I think B&W are going to be in trouble when it comes to AFFC/ADWD because they are awkwardly structured and kind of boring. There will need to be a lot of reworking those. But, as of right now, the way they're doing it is paying off creatively, critically and commercially. Asking for an arbitrary change is pointless.

[DACrowe]

Don't forget the most successful show on cable, The Walking Dead. It is following the general structure of the story but creating plots and twists of it's own and developing the characters to fit the medium rather than stubbornly sticking to the source material (no matter how ill fitting).

Yeah. And that show is kind of terrible. :oldrazz:

I haven't read TWD, so I can't compare, but the show starts with a strong pilot and follow-up episode. However, by the end of that season it turns into just kind of unfulfilled potential. That's not even getting into Season 2 which for the most part was a bunch of poorly-developed characters (exceptions being Shane and Rick) sitting around a farm complaining about how much life sucks and futilely looking for a little girl.

I see the argument that you don't have to stay close the source material for a show to work. The first two seasons of True Blood were quite good (but the show lost its way and has petered out, IMO), but again just because nobody has tried something as ambitious as GOT doesn't mean it can't work. Thus far, it has, in my opinion.

[Marvolo]

I dont care if i get *****ed at for this but unless someone has read the books they dont have the slightest clue how these books should be adapted.

[Matt]

Yeah. And that show is kind of terrible. :oldrazz:

I haven't read TWD, so I can't compare, but the show starts with a strong pilot and follow-up episode. However, by the end of that season it turns into just kind of unfulfilled potential. That's not even getting into Season 2 which for the most part was a bunch of poorly-developed characters (exceptions being Shane and Rick) sitting around a farm complaining about how much life sucks and futilely looking for a little girl.

I see the argument that you don't have to stay close the source material for a show to work. The first two seasons of True Blood were quite good (but the show lost its way and has petered out, IMO), but again just because nobody has tried something as ambitious as GOT doesn't mean it can't work. Thus far, it has, in my opinion.

I am of the opinion that it is not. In fact, I'd argue it has every one of the same problems that The Walking Dead has (strong first coupe of episodes, strong final two episodes, complete snore-fest in between filled with a bunch of characters I don't particularly like or care about). I'd argue that you are biased as a fan of the books and based on your critique of The Walking Dead you'd say the same thing as me if you weren't a fan of the books as they are essentially the same show plagued by the same pacing problems and general lack of likability among the cast.

I dont care if i get *****ed at for this but unless someone has read the books they dont have the slightest clue how these books should be adapted.

You're right, we can't say how they should be adapted. We can critique what they are being adapted into however and those critiques are just as valid as anything that anyone who has read the books says.

[DACrowe]

I had no problems following or enjoying the first season and I hadn't read a single page of the books when I watched it. Quite frankly, a ton of story progress happens every episode in GOT. Not all of it is in-your-face (though half the time it is), but major events keep happening. It has never had the feel of complete stasis and momentum-free repetitiveness that TWD had.

This season we've seen Arya go from hiding as a boy with no power on the King's Road, to a prisoner, nearly tortured to death, to the personal servant of her brother's worst enemy and holding the power of life and death in her hands. We've seen the rise of five kings, the death of one, the collapse of order in King's Landing, the rise of to power of Tyrion Lannister, Theon Greyjoy choosing to betray Jon for his unloving family, taking Winterfell and possibly murdering Bran and Rickon (at least murdering two children), Jon's whole adventure, etc. etc. I couldn't sum up the first seven episodes of GOT in a sentence. TWD S2's first seven episodes in a sentence? They're sitting around depressed at a farm looking for a missing girl.

So, I don't really think they're comparable. You just don't like the pacing of GOT. But, IMO, it is the best paced show on cable right now not named Homeland. I know you're going to kill me for this, but it has surpassed Boardwalk Empire, in my opinion.

[Matt]

You've just lost all credibility, my friend. :oldrazz:

Little similar character moments can be pointed to on The Walking Dead. Besides, someone who has read The Walking Dead (like myself) can feel out the general plot of where the show is going and argue that you are wrong because everything that happened in season 2 sets up for **** in season 3 and later seasons. But does that really change the fact that season 2 bored you or make it's terrible pace better in your eyes?

I think as a fan of the books you are willing to give it a pass on the exact things that you criticize The Walking Dead for.

[flickchick85]

The Walking Dead loses points in most of the changes it's made from the comics, imo. The only change I've liked was the CDC bit. Everything else has made the story less compelling, imo, and the characters less likable.

That said, even if TWD were a perfect adaptation, I still wouldn't think Game of Thrones should follow its model. That's a story drawn from ongoing serialized comics with no end in sight. The books True Blood are based on are basically the same thing in book form. They're a bunch of little episodic novella adventures that just keep on coming. THIS story is drawn from a singular saga with a very specific journey and destination. It's like if they turned the Harry Potter series into a 7-season TV show instead of movies, they could never have been so freewheeling with the plots as True Blood or TWD have been with theirs. This is exactly like HP in that regard. All the plot points in this series are serving a bigger, complete picture, and for the purposes of this show, they're condensing it as much as they can while still giving the TV characters and scenes room to breathe on their own, imo.

[Matt]

I disagree that the changes of The Walking Dead have been bad. Shane's arc and death were much better on the show. The Darryl character is a welcome edition. And the changes to Rick are all for the better. Kirkman's plot is showing Rick descend into madness to reflect the world that he lives in. The show's writers smartly decided to keep his humanity in tact and make him relatable. They've made all characters more likable (which gives the audience connections....something GOT is sorely lacking).

Also if Kirkman is being honest, he has a very clear path mapped out for TWD. It is Rick's story and he at least claims to know where it goes and how it ends.

[Spidey-Bat]

At any one point, there's only one official canon for a given comic franchise.
Which still changes about every 5 years or more. Then there's absolute stupid **** they throw in the comics to get buzz like having Alfred possibly be Bruce's father.

Even going by your restrictions, all successful, multi-season TV adaptations (as opposed to a one-off miniseries that doesn't have to worry about future planning such as whether an actor will return/be available several years down the line) of books (i.e. True Blood, Vampire Diaries, Gossip Girl, Sherlock (if you're willing to consider it successful this early in its run)) depart significantly from the source material plot-wise; creating their own twists and developments).
Too many parenthesis. Anyway, just because they do it doesn't mean Game of Thrones has to or should.

The series is one big story. Each book is not a self-contained plot. It's building to a major event. We still don't know what since 2 more books are supposed to come out.

[DACrowe]

You've just lost all credibility, my friend. :oldrazz:

Little similar character moments can be pointed to on The Walking Dead. Besides, someone who has read The Walking Dead (like myself) can feel out the general plot of where the show is going and argue that you are wrong because everything that happened in season 2 sets up for **** in season 3 and later seasons. But does that really change the fact that season 2 bored you or make it's terrible pace better in your eyes?

I think as a fan of the books you are willing to give it a pass on the exact things that you criticize The Walking Dead for.

I find it hard to believe that GOT is "boring," but even so I don't think "character moments" are comparable. The only characters with arcs in S2 of TWD were Shane going crazy and Rick going slightly less crazy. Everyone else just kind of stood around *****ing at each other. I really don't think that's comparable to Theon not only betraying his surrogate brother, but invading Winterfell, betraying the people who raised him and killing children. And that's just one plot line. Look at how much Arya has been through, how far Tyrion has climbed, how S2 began with a "status quo" (War of the Five Kings) not there in Season 1 and by Episode 5 had blown that status quo to smithereens and redefined the conflict on the show again.

I just think more happens on GOT than any other show on television, save the expertly paced and highly-addictive Homeland. I mean you can say that you like both shows equally, but at the end of the day, the story of GOT is always in flux while other than a slight shift in the first two episodes of S1 and last two episodes of S2, TWD has been the same situation every week.

[Marvolo]

I am of the opinion that it is not. In fact, I'd argue it has every one of the same problems that The Walking Dead has (strong first coupe of episodes, strong final two episodes, complete snore-fest in between filled with a bunch of characters I don't particularly like or care about). I'd argue that you are biased as a fan of the books and based on your critique of The Walking Dead you'd say the same thing as me if you weren't a fan of the books as they are essentially the same show plagued by the same pacing problems and general lack of likability among the cast.



You're right, we can't say how they should be adapted. We can critique what they are being adapted into however and those critiques are just as valid as anything that anyone who has read the books says.

You know how with television shows that are original creations and not adapted there will be episodes and scenes your not sure why they are included but the writers keep saying trust us we have an ending and that material is necessary to get there. The viewers are like ok and at the end you understand. Until then everypne just has to go along for the ride because the viewers dont know what the end is. Well its like that here but not just the writers know where this is going; the readers also know. We keep telling you and others to trust us and to trust the writers that this stuff is important and you will see the payoff. You may not want to read the books but you need to accept that the readers have a better handle on all this and understand what the writers are doing better than the non readers. I respect your complaints and critiques but as a reader I have a better idea of this material and what is necessary so when I and other readers critique your critiques try to understand us and the writers. All I'm saying is if you've got the patience and can trust we the readers when we tell you that things are the way they need to be and trust the writers then you are in for a killer show.

That's all I'm saying. Hope I don't come across pretentious or *****y.:)

[flickchick85]

I disagree that the changes of The Walking Dead have been bad. Shane's arc and death were much better on the show. The Darryl character is a welcome edition. And the changes to Rick are all for the better. Kirkman's plot is showing Rick descend into madness to reflect the world that he lives in. The show's writers smartly decided to keep his humanity in tact and make him relatable. They've made all characters more likable (which gives the audience connections....something GOT is sorely lacking).

Also if Kirkman is being honest, he has a very clear path mapped out for TWD. It is Rick's story and he at least claims to know where it goes and how it ends.
I forgot about Darryl, you're right, he is a very welcome change. But I disagree on everything else.

And while Kirkman may have an end game in mind for Rick, there's no denying TWD is a pulp serial at heart. The novels in GoT have a beginning-middle-end structure to each, and each are clearly serving one great tapestry of a story with a very specific destination, ala the Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter series.

[Marvolo]

There is a reason GRRM said for years that A Song of Ice and Fire could not be adapted. Its way too big for a movie without absolutely gutting it. I'm not even sure its possible it would come out good at all. And its not really designed to be cut up into satisfactory hour long blocks. They are doing the best adaption they can without entirely changing the story or making it Game of Thrones in name only. If someone wants an adaption that is true to the books this really is about the best you could hope for.

[Jordacar]

Thought this was fun:

15 Things You Didn't Know About "Game of Thrones" (http://www.buzzfeed.com/keenan/15-things-you-didnt-know-about-game-of-thrones)

[Bruce Malone]

Thought this was fun:

15 Things You Didn't Know About "Game of Thrones" (http://www.buzzfeed.com/keenan/15-things-you-didnt-know-about-game-of-thrones)

So this article is pretty much written by someone who bought the dvd and assumed no one else has...

Ehh I just hate these presumptive titles they throw out, cracked is the worst with them though.

[Jordacar]

See, this is why we can't have nice things. :waa:

[mr. peasant]

Too many parenthesis. Anyway, just because they do it doesn't mean Game of Thrones has to or should.

You added the requirement that it had to be books. My only requirements were that the adaptation in question had to be popular with people and have lasted several years.

There is a rationale why others haven't done it, and it's not because it never occurred to them. This rationale has been explained and such issues have already occurred in the show. Thus far, I have not seen any counter-arguments against these very real logistical issues and how they can be managed when they inevitably arise again further down the road.

[ChickenScratch]

I dont care if i get *****ed at for this but unless someone has read the books they dont have the slightest clue how these books should be adapted.

I totally agree with you man. Without knowing the material itself you cannot say how it should or should not be adapted. You may not like the show itself for whatever reason ... but if you've not read the original you just don't know.

I love seeing the posts about how to adapt shows and how they could use the world and do their own thing. Makes me want to say "You know nothing Jon Snow."

No worries man. It's easy to criticize from a standpoint of ignorance. What do you cut really? What do you streamline and eliminate? It's one of the most interconnected stories I've ever read.

[Matt]

I find it hard to believe that GOT is "boring," but even so I don't think "character moments" are comparable. The only characters with arcs in S2 of TWD were Shane going crazy and Rick going slightly less crazy. Everyone else just kind of stood around *****ing at each other. I really don't think that's comparable to Theon not only betraying his surrogate brother, but invading Winterfell, betraying the people who raised him and killing children. And that's just one plot line. Look at how much Arya has been through, how far Tyrion has climbed, how S2 began with a "status quo" (War of the Five Kings) not there in Season 1 and by Episode 5 had blown that status quo to smithereens and redefined the conflict on the show again.

I just think more happens on GOT than any other show on television, save the expertly paced and highly-addictive Homeland. I mean you can say that you like both shows equally, but at the end of the day, the story of GOT is always in flux while other than a slight shift in the first two episodes of S1 and last two episodes of S2, TWD has been the same situation every week.

One day we're going to agree on something Crowe, I promise. ;)

As to your point, your argument seems to be "More is better." I disagree. GOT is far too crowded for it's own good with uninteresting and/or unlikable characters that slow things down. I'd rather see two characters developed very well (Shane and Rick) than 10 characters, all of whom I hate developed to the point of nausea.

You know how with television shows that are original creations and not adapted there will be episodes and scenes your not sure why they are included but the writers keep saying trust us we have an ending and that material is necessary to get there. The viewers are like ok and at the end you understand. Until then everypne just has to go along for the ride because the viewers dont know what the end is. Well its like that here but not just the writers know where this is going; the readers also know. We keep telling you and others to trust us and to trust the writers that this stuff is important and you will see the payoff. You may not want to read the books but you need to accept that the readers have a better handle on all this and understand what the writers are doing better than the non readers. I respect your complaints and critiques but as a reader I have a better idea of this material and what is necessary so when I and other readers critique your critiques try to understand us and the writers. All I'm saying is if you've got the patience and can trust we the readers when we tell you that things are the way they need to be and trust the writers then you are in for a killer show.

That's all I'm saying. Hope I don't come across pretentious or *****y.:)

But your logic is flawed. Just because we don't know the end doesn't mean that the journey there cannot be criticized. Season 6 of 24 for example had a tremendous ending. The rest of the episodes were terrible. The good ending doesn't excuse the bad journey there. The Mentalist recently backed down from a shocking plot twist that ended season 3. Just because I do not know where the writers are heading, doesn't mean that I cannot criticize the cowardice of backing down and restoring the status quo.

I forgot about Darryl, you're right, he is a very welcome change. But I disagree on everything else.

You'd rather see borderline crazy Rick? :funny:


And while Kirkman may have an end game in mind for Rick, there's no denying TWD is a pulp serial at heart. The novels in GoT have a beginning-middle-end structure to each, and each are clearly serving one great tapestry of a story with a very specific destination, ala the Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter series.

And Peter Jackson wisely cut Tom Bombadill and all of the unnecessary exposition on the back story of Middle Earth. It is the adapter's job to decide what is absolutely essential and what is not. Cue a fan of the book saying, "Everything is essential!" To that I say that some things are more essential than others. It is the adapters job to adapt. Not translate.

[smashmode]

This might have already been mentioned, but it appears we should be getting casting info fairly soon:

The TV show. I finished and delivered my script for season three of GAME OF THRONES. It's episode 307, with the working title "Autumn Storms." David and Dan seem to like it. Casting is in full swing for the new season, so I'm watching auditions every night. Froggy may be turning up soon, but don't hold your breath. I'm too busy to devote much time to whipping up obscure clues.

[Dark Sentinel]

I'll be the first to say that I haven't read the books as of yet :csad: I started AGoT, but as I'm busy with my own writing I just don't have the time to sit down and read like I used to. But the show is fantastic thus far, and if they've deviated from the source material at all it's been enormously beneficial to viewers like me who were/are unfamiliar with the books.

[flickchick85]

And Peter Jackson wisely cut Tom Bombadill and all of the unnecessary exposition on the back story of Middle Earth. It is the adapter's job to decide what is absolutely essential and what is not. Cue a fan of the book saying, "Everything is essential!" To that I say that some things are more essential than others. It is the adapters job to adapt. Not translate.
Yes I know, you've said as much. To which I again respond, that is exactly what they are doing. They've cut out and condensed a TON from the books already. The only reason Peter Jackson cut out more was because he was adapting each book into a 3-hour movie, not a 13-hour season. But the GoT writers are doing the exact same kind of adapting he did, just in longer form. They've cut out major characters, combined events and cut out whole stretches all-together.

[Marvolo]

One day we're going to agree on something Crowe, I promise. ;)

As to your point, your argument seems to be "More is better." I disagree. GOT is far too crowded for it's own good with uninteresting and/or unlikable characters that slow things down. I'd rather see two characters developed very well (Shane and Rick) than 10 characters, all of whom I hate developed to the point of nausea.



But your logic is flawed. Just because we don't know the end doesn't mean that the journey there cannot be criticized. Season 6 of 24 for example had a tremendous ending. The rest of the episodes were terrible. The good ending doesn't excuse the bad journey there. The Mentalist recently backed down from a shocking plot twist that ended season 3. Just because I do not know where the writers are heading, doesn't mean that I cannot criticize the cowardice of backing down and restoring the status quo.



You'd rather see borderline crazy Rick? :funny:



And Peter Jackson wisely cut Tom Bombadill and all of the unnecessary exposition on the back story of Middle Earth. It is the adapter's job to decide what is absolutely essential and what is not. Cue a fan of the book saying, "Everything is essential!" To that I say that some things are more essential than others. It is the adapters job to adapt. Not translate.

You can critique all you want but every one of the problems you've expressed would be completely moot if you understood why these scenes you don't like are important. Most viewers just go along with and enjoy the episodes as small pieces of a larger story. It seems you simply don't have the patience this show requires. That's not an insult but an observation. You keep judging these episodes as if they are self contained stories that should have a beginning middle and end with a steady rise to action and climax. Like most episodes of television shows. This shows episodes are not structured like that. They are hour long snapshots of a much larger tapestry. This isn't like 99% of what is on TV. Its a 90 hour movie you have to watch one hour at a time once a week. Is that the best way to structure a television show? Probably not. But it is the best way to serve this story. Its just the nature of the beast and you're going to have to come to terms with that. Some episodes will seem slower or not as thrilling or enthralling as others. But when you watch them back to back you can see how well they work. Some shows are meant to be watched in big chuncks and this show works best when you can watch all 10 episodes of each season in as few settings as possible.

[DACrowe]

You added the requirement that it had to be books. My only requirements were that the adaptation in question had to be popular with people and have lasted several years.

There is a rationale why others haven't done it, and it's not because it never occurred to them. This rationale has been explained and such issues have already occurred in the show. Thus far, I have not seen any counter-arguments against these very real logistical issues and how they can be managed when they inevitably arise again further down the road.

So, you're worried they may have to change things down the road (cough-AFFC-cough), thus they should just ditch the books now? It really doesn't make sense. Obviously, the show as it is now--basing its story in large scope on the books--is doing something right considering it has been nominated for Best Series by the Emmys and Globes, will be again for this year, and has won Best Supporting Actor twice. Not to mention it is a ratings hit and HBO's second biggest show after True Blood and selling like hotcakes on DVD. So, as a more straightforward adaptation, it's had critical and commercial success thus far.

[DACrowe]

One day we're going to agree on something Crowe, I promise. ;)

As to your point, your argument seems to be "More is better." I disagree. GOT is far too crowded for it's own good with uninteresting and/or unlikable characters that slow things down. I'd rather see two characters developed very well (Shane and Rick) than 10 characters, all of whom I hate developed to the point of nausea.

What you mean like Laurie? Rick's son? Andrea? Carol? Dale? T-Dawg? Anyone who lived on that farm not named Hershel or who was banging Glenn? :oldrazz: GOT develops its characters more and they're spread across two continents. What's TWD's "we're on a farm's" excuse?

I personally think GOT is full of great characters (Tyrion, Arya, Ygritte, Tywin, Catelyn, Sansa, Jaime, Littlefinger, Theon, Joffrey etc.). If you find them boring, I just can't help you because I do not understand.

[chaseter]

Tyrion would ***** slap Rick and take his crew as his own. He would ship off Carl and belittle Laurie for being an idiot. Send Shane to the wall as he needs some celibacy and hangout with Hershell in a tavern.

[Spidey-Bat]

Sorry to interrupt the bickering but we have confirmation that Edmure Tully will be in next season!

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/leaked-audition-tape-confirms-edmure-tully-will-be-cast/

Now Matt will have another character to complain about :hehe:

[cyborg ninja 14]

Yeah, this is really cool and all, comparing the walking dead to game of thrones, but Edmure Tully is a significant addition that more or less sets up the defining moment of the series. Oh yes.

[omid17]

Best show on planet Earth!!!


(Cersei: "Aren’t you always so clever with your schemes and your plots!" Tyrion: "Schemes and plots are the same thing.")

haha i love it!

[smashmode]

I am excite about edmure

[FVD]

Sorry to interrupt the bickering but we have confirmation that Edmure Tully will be in next season!

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/leaked-audition-tape-confirms-edmure-tully-will-be-cast/

Now Matt will have another character to complain about :hehe:

Excellent news about Edmure!! He needed to be included from that point on. Now introduce the Blackfish as well please!! I have faith that he wil. And I do wonder whether Hoster Tully will make an appearance, even if it's only for an episode or two.

[Matt]

Sorry to interrupt the bickering but we have confirmation that Edmure Tully will be in next season!

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/leaked-audition-tape-confirms-edmure-tully-will-be-cast/

Now Matt will have another character to complain about :hehe:

:whatever: There is no need to be a jerk.

[Thundercrack85]

I would like to see some more locations. Like the Lannister's hangout. It's funny cause, even though most major characters are Lannisters, we've never actually seen their capital.

Thus far it seems like this war has just been fought in fields. No sieges, or anything.

[omid17]

they did a really sick job with Harrenhall and Qarth, costumes looks awesome as well. Davos and Stannis are bad asses :up: and poor Sansa she is just getting tossed around lol

[Thundercrack85]

I almost forgot about Stannis. They need to give him more screen time.

[omid17]

poor John Snow got back stabbed by killians irish red lol. i think it would be pretty cool if Ghost came to the rescue

[Great1]

Sorry to interrupt the bickering but we have confirmation that Edmure Tully will be in next season!

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/leaked-audition-tape-confirms-edmure-tully-will-be-cast/

Now Matt will have another character to complain about :hehe:

Has the Blackfish been cast yet?

[DACrowe]

Excellent news about Edmure!! He needed to be included from that point on. Now introduce the Blackfish as well please!! I have faith that he wil. And I do wonder whether Hoster Tully will make an appearance, even if it's only for an episode or two.

The Blackfish doesn't really need to be introduced beyond Jaime's dealings with him in AFFC. For television, he's really a minor character for the overall narrative. Hoster has the great funeral on the river but again has very little to do with the actual story. Seeing people struggle with so many characters right now, we don't need to overload on Tullys when the only ones of vital importance are Catelyn, Edmure and Lysa. The rest can be left out.

[Spidey-Bat]

:whatever: There is no need to be a jerk.

It was a joke, hence the :hehe:

Has the Blackfish been cast yet?

No. The actor in the Edmure audition tape is just auditioning, hasn't gotten the part yet.

[mr. peasant]

So, you're worried they may have to change things down the road (cough-AFFC-cough), thus they should just ditch the books now? It really doesn't make sense. Obviously, the show as it is now--basing its story in large scope on the books--is doing something right considering it has been nominated for Best Series by the Emmys and Globes, will be again for this year, and has won Best Supporting Actor twice. Not to mention it is a ratings hit and HBO's second biggest show after True Blood and selling like hotcakes on DVD. So, as a more straightforward adaptation, it's had critical and commercial success thus far.

Essentially, yes for reasons you continually choose not to acknowledge and so not see my line of thinking. There are problems and issues that the show will have to face and that aren't going away. By adhering to the books (especially past season/book 1 which was essentially setup for the show's premise of a bunch of factions vying for rulership of some sort), it sets precedence and expectations amongst fans (particularly fans of the book); in that by remaining faithful to the books, fans will expect the show to always be faithful to the books. The show will be hard pressed to deviate now as seen by the uproar to occurs amongst the book fans whenever even a small change is made. Had the creators played it fast and loose from the get go, there would be less outrage by book fans (certainly less validity to it) as the show would always have been a loose adaptation to begin with.

My arguments have less been that this show isn't of good quality but that it is setting itself up for trouble down the road as in order to be completed it requires to go right things that are far out of the creators' control; from the child actors deciding to continue pursuing an acting career (e.g. the girl playing Sansa will be of university age in a couple years and may decide to further her education instead of staying with the show) to GRRM finishing the remaining books before the show catches up (which conceivably may not happen given his current pace of writing) and the show continuing to be renewed to last 7-8 seasons (which is no easy feat, especially for a story driven, non-formulaic series).

[Kane52630]

I thought I would post this here since it's so amazing.

Game of Thrones Theme - Piano Edition

1kBWtd4lujk

[rayc1971]

are they gonna show ramsey bolton? from what i have been told we should have seen him tel theon to kill those kids.so they changed this from the book

[Spidey-Bat]

He'll be in next season.

[Havok83]

This got lost on the last thread bc of the cutoff but IGN released a GoT app for iOS. Its an AMAZING resource taht Id reccomend to anyone

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ign-guide-for-game-thrones/id518106574?mt=8

[ChickenScratch]

Essentially, yes for reasons you continually choose not to acknowledge and so not see my line of thinking. There are problems and issues that the show will have to face and that aren't going away. By adhering to the books (especially past season/book 1 which was essentially setup for the show's premise of a bunch of factions vying for rulership of some sort), it sets precedence and expectations amongst fans (particularly fans of the book); in that by remaining faithful to the books, fans will expect the show to always be faithful to the books. The show will be hard pressed to deviate now as seen by the uproar to occurs amongst the book fans whenever even a small change is made. Had the creators played it fast and loose from the get go, there would be less outrage by book fans (certainly less validity to it) as the show would always have been a loose adaptation to begin with.

My arguments have less been that this show isn't of good quality but that it is setting itself up for trouble down the road as in order to be completed it requires to go right things that are far out of the creators' control; from the child actors deciding to continue pursuing an acting career (e.g. the girl playing Sansa will be of university age in a couple years and may decide to further her education instead of staying with the show) to GRRM finishing the remaining books before the show catches up (which conceivably may not happen given his current pace of writing) and the show continuing to be renewed to last 7-8 seasons (which is no easy feat, especially for a story driven, non-formulaic series).

Wait, someone who never read the books complaining about possible problems down the road. Based upon what exactly? You don't know the material, you come back to the thread surprised every week. If you could point out one specific in story instance down the road one single change that is "necessary" to the narrative, but you don't because you don't know the material. Problems down the road for you is based purely on speculation because you have never come upon a series like this. Nobody has really, it's not meant to be like any other series ever. It's almost as if you like the sandbox and the characters GRRM created but don't like his story, so yu wished they ditched it from the get go.

GRRM knows the ending, he told the TV producers and writers the ending. Not that he's knocking on death's door anyways. So what if they have to recast roles or if the show is even cancelled. Should they make concessions to this story to wrap it up nice and neat so it can finish? I would rather it end unfinished like Rome, than have some crap, TV trope ending.

It's not meant to be like other fantasy. It's not about wars and dragons and all that high fantasy drivel. A lot of people seem to get tied up in waiting for the next big fight or something of the sort when the show actually plays in the dialog, the castle intrigue. I always thought of GRRM like John LeCarre in the sense that the action is not even closer to the impact of the dialog.

[DACrowe]

Essentially, yes for reasons you continually choose not to acknowledge and so not see my line of thinking. There are problems and issues that the show will have to face and that aren't going away. By adhering to the books (especially past season/book 1 which was essentially setup for the show's premise of a bunch of factions vying for rulership of some sort), it sets precedence and expectations amongst fans (particularly fans of the book); in that by remaining faithful to the books, fans will expect the show to always be faithful to the books. The show will be hard pressed to deviate now as seen by the uproar to occurs amongst the book fans whenever even a small change is made. Had the creators played it fast and loose from the get go, there would be less outrage by book fans (certainly less validity to it) as the show would always have been a loose adaptation to begin with.

My arguments have less been that this show isn't of good quality but that it is setting itself up for trouble down the road as in order to be completed it requires to go right things that are far out of the creators' control; from the child actors deciding to continue pursuing an acting career (e.g. the girl playing Sansa will be of university age in a couple years and may decide to further her education instead of staying with the show) to GRRM finishing the remaining books before the show catches up (which conceivably may not happen given his current pace of writing) and the show continuing to be renewed to last 7-8 seasons (which is no easy feat, especially for a story driven, non-formulaic series).

You're under the assumption that the show is mostly watched by book-readers or that if that demographic is upset that the show will suffer. They have been and its not. They've taken way more liberties for S2 than they have in S1. Jon going camping with Ygritte, no Reek, Theon executing Ser Rodrick himself after taking Winterfell, no Damphair, no siege of Storm's End, no Riverrun, Tyrion making Bronn Commander of the Gold Cloaks, Sansa being almost raped, no Jorgen and Meera, no dead city for Dany, Irri dying, Pyatt stealing the draogns, Xaros killing the other Thirteen and declaring himself King of Qarth, Arya not going exploring in the wartorn riverlands, Arya serving as cupbearer to Tywin and killing Ser Amory Lorch in a non-accidental way, etc. etc. etc.

And I imagine they'll do more in the coming seasons. Particularly Season 4 and onwards, because quite frankly AFFC is kind of boring and I haven't heard high praise for ADWD. That's fine. But why rush it. The creators have shown that when they see a way to bring something out for television (Twyin/Charles Dance's presence, more early development of Ygritte, etc.) they'll take it. And the hardcore book-readers, who you can see on IMDB or any comment section about the show, have already gone ballistic.

But they're a tiny fraction of the show's audience. For HBO to completely discard the books in S1 simply as to not risk pissing off fans when they reach AFFC is ridiculous. The first three books are great stories and make for captivating television. When the time comes, they'll do what they have to do. The creators shouldn't be criticized for staying relatively close to the first two books when the results have been fantastic.

[DACrowe]

Wait, someone who never read the books complaining about possible problems down the road. Based upon what exactly? You don't know the material, you come back to the thread surprised every week. If you could point out one specific in story instance down the road one single change that is "necessary" to the narrative, but you don't because you don't know the material. Problems down the road for you is based purely on speculation because you have never come upon a series like this. Nobody has really, it's not meant to be like any other series ever. It's almost as if you like the sandbox and the characters GRRM created but don't like his story, so yu wished they ditched it from the get go.

GRRM knows the ending, he told the TV producers and writers the ending. Not that he's knocking on death's door anyways. So what if they have to recast roles or if the show is even cancelled. Should they make concessions to this story to wrap it up nice and neat so it can finish? I would rather it end unfinished like Rome, than have some crap, TV trope ending.

It's not meant to be like other fantasy. It's not about wars and dragons and all that high fantasy drivel. A lot of people seem to get tied up in waiting for the next big fight or something of the sort when the show actually plays in the dialog, the castle intrigue. I always thought of GRRM like John LeCarre in the sense that the action is not even closer to the impact of the dialog.

I didn't realize he hadn't read the books. Is he just talking about recasting? BTW on the Sansa thing, the actor who plays Joffrey is entering his third year of university and admits when he's done with GOT (not gonna' tell you non-book readers when that is :oldrazz: ) that he's giving up acting. But until then, he his happy to stay on the show. I think all the actors signed like a 6-8 year contract, so I really am not too worried about that.

As for being canceled early, I'd hate for them to try and "Rome" this series. In Rome S2, the first 6 episodes are essentially what S2 was going to be and they just crammed the story highlights they had in mind for S3 and S4 into the last 4 episodes of the series. I could see viewership declining for GOT, but not until S5 or S6. If they have to wrap it up early, I hope they know in advance to the final season and the show their own way, because I prefer finality to open-ended frustration. Not every show gets a Serenity reprise after all. Just saying.

[Dark Sentinel]

I thought I would post this here since it's so amazing.

Game of Thrones Theme - Piano Edition

1kBWtd4lujk

:awesome: :applaud

[Dark Sentinel]

Wait, someone who never read the books complaining about possible problems down the road. Based upon what exactly? You don't know the material, you come back to the thread surprised every week. If you could point out one specific in story instance down the road one single change that is "necessary" to the narrative, but you don't because you don't know the material. Problems down the road for you is based purely on speculation because you have never come upon a series like this. Nobody has really, it's not meant to be like any other series ever. It's almost as if you like the sandbox and the characters GRRM created but don't like his story, so yu wished they ditched it from the get go.

GRRM knows the ending, he told the TV producers and writers the ending. Not that he's knocking on death's door anyways. So what if they have to recast roles or if the show is even cancelled. Should they make concessions to this story to wrap it up nice and neat so it can finish? I would rather it end unfinished like Rome, than have some crap, TV trope ending.

It's not meant to be like other fantasy. It's not about wars and dragons and all that high fantasy drivel. A lot of people seem to get tied up in waiting for the next big fight or something of the sort when the show actually plays in the dialog, the castle intrigue. I always thought of GRRM like John LeCarre in the sense that the action is not even closer to the impact of the dialog.

This.

I really enjoy the "palace intrigue" aspect of the show over the other elements (the "high fantasy drivel" as you put it). As a fantasy writer I enjoy the depth of the world the story takes place in almost more than the action. There's something to be said for fleshing out the realism of a fantasy story.

But I also like the diversity of the stories themselves. There's such a wide scope to cover, from the Far North to Essos and even Westeros itself, I think that is what will keep viewers watching for the next couple seasons.

By the way has Beric Dondarrion been cast yet?

[Thundercrack85]

Speaking of recasting, the new mountain just doesn't have the screen presence of the old one. Probably doesn't help that his scenes thus far have consisted of Tywin chastising him.

[mr. peasant]

Wait, someone who never read the books complaining about possible problems down the road. Based upon what exactly? You don't know the material, you come back to the thread surprised every week. If you could point out one specific in story instance down the road one single change that is "necessary" to the narrative, but you don't because you don't know the material. Problems down the road for you is based purely on speculation because you have never come upon a series like this. Nobody has really, it's not meant to be like any other series ever. It's almost as if you like the sandbox and the characters GRRM created but don't like his story, so yu wished they ditched it from the get go.

Uhm... what? Think you're confusing me with someone else, mate. Fact, I haven't even been posting here until this week. I find it funny that you assume that I've not read the books. At no point do I even allude to this or even express surprise at the show's turn of events. As a matter of fact, I have read the books. As for citing necessary changes to the narrative, of course I won't be able provide them since I neither work on the show nor have insider knowledge of the goings-ons behind-the-scenes.

What I can point to you are incidents that have forced the writers to sacrifice the TV show's setting's cohesion in order to preserve fidelity to the books - such as there now being two Gregor Cleganes (Conan Stevens in season 1 and Ian Whyte in season 2), owing to the former leaving for another project.

I can also cite incidents things have already deviated from the book - such as Rakharo dying (I believe because his actor also left for another project), Irri dying, the Arya-Tywin interactions and just about the entirety of Qarth's events, not the least of which being the dragon-napping. Whether these were borne out of necessity or creative spark and willingness to deviate, I can only speculate.

Lastly, I can cite potential areas that I feel will present challenges to the adaptation process. Daenerys' sections as per the books continue to be boring and overly convoluted, a number of the show's core characters' continued loss of relevance/involvement in the main plot in favour of newer faces, and the younger actors growing up faster than in the books (how much longer before Isaac Hempstead-Wright/Bran hits a growth spurt and becomes too tall and heavy to be continually carried around by Kristian Nairn/Hodor?).

GRRM knows the ending, he told the TV producers and writers the ending. Not that he's knocking on death's door anyways.

Only broad brushstrokes from what I hear. And even then, GRRM has proven that he is willing to change his mind down the road - as proven by how 'A Dance with Dragons' got rewritten almost from scratch when he was halfway through. And it's not so much a question of the books never being made but that they aren't out in time to be adapted. A Feast for Crows took 5 years and A Dance with Dragons took 6. Following this pattern, it might be another ten years before GRRM releases the last book - which would be too late given the show's pace of adaptation.

Should they make concessions to this story to wrap it up nice and neat so it can finish? I would rather it end unfinished like Rome, than have some crap, TV trope ending.

Yes, and this is why I feel we can't see eye to eye. I personally see the show and the book to be their own separate entities. What happens in the show has no bearing or impact whatsoever to the books. As such, if the show was to end earlier than planned, I would like to see it receive a proper ending rather than not the same way I like all stories to have proper endings.

[mr. peasant]

You're under the assumption that the show is mostly watched by book-readers or that if that demographic is upset that the show will suffer. They have been and its not.

I'm under the assumption that the show's creators do try to pander to the book readers as much as possible since the readers' continued approval does contribute a significant positive buzz online since they are very vocal even if a minority (how much of a minority, I don't know though remember that 49% can still technically count as a minority ;)).

And I imagine they'll do more in the coming seasons. Particularly Season 4 and onwards, because quite frankly AFFC is kind of boring and I haven't heard high praise for ADWD. That's fine. But why rush it. The creators have shown that when they see a way to bring something out for television (Twyin/Charles Dance's presence, more early development of Ygritte, etc.) they'll take it. And the hardcore book-readers, who you can see on IMDB or any comment section about the show, have already gone ballistic.

Perhaps, though for the moment, they've only gone as far as to add to the events rather than any kind of actual independence from the books' chain of events.

I didn't realize he hadn't read the books. Is he just talking about recasting? BTW on the Sansa thing, the actor who plays Joffrey is entering his third year of university and admits when he's done with GOT (not gonna' tell you non-book readers when that is :oldrazz: ) that he's giving up acting. But until then, he his happy to stay on the show. I think all the actors signed like a 6-8 year contract, so I really am not too worried about that.

I might be wrong but the longest contract I've heard is that Peter Dinklage might have a 6-year contract with the show but even then, that's just rumour without confirmation. For the most part, actors don't sign on for long periods at a time (I believe the norm being 3-4 years with the option to renegotiate down the line). While not discussing the show, here's an interesting article highlighting the issue of retaining cast members (http://www.tvtonight.com.au/2012/05/another-rafters-cast-member-to-fly-the-coop.html); or rather the challenge of having to do so for a long-running series.

Regarding the 'Sansa thing', I don't think we can so easily use Jack Gleeson (Joffrey) as an example. With him, I believe he was already a university student when he was acting on the show; meaning, he was on a course that allowed for part-time or disrupted study. Depending on the course she enrolls in should she decide to go to university, Sophie Turner (Sansa) may or may not have that option.

[smashmode]

WiC speculates that the *casting speculation* the reeds might be in based on latest casting calls:

It seems likely they are looking for extras to play the diminutive crannogmen, which would mean the Reeds are in! The prevailing theory is that a group from Greywater Watch will be sent to Winterfell, including Jojen and Meera, and that they will run into Bran and Co. along the way. Either that or David & Dan will pad Bran’s journey even more and have him head to Greywater Watch first, where he will meet Meera and Jojen. Eventually, the latter will tell him they need to go north and their journey will commence from there. But that would mean having to build a new set and possibly having to cast Howland Reed, so that seems much less likely than the other theory. Either way, this whole thing is a good sign for all you Reed fans!

[mr. peasant]

And now, for something completely opposite to my criticisms/reservations about the show's concept. Not sure if anyone's come across this or if it's been posted before. Just thought this was too hilariously cute not to:

Nerdy Nummies - Game of Thrones Pizza (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfM2n2Oa-qU)

Somebody cut me a slice of that pie! :oldrazz:

[CrypticOne]

You're under the assumption that the show is mostly watched by book-readers or that if that demographic is upset that the show will suffer. They have been and its not. They've taken way more liberties for S2 than they have in S1. Jon going camping with Ygritte, no Reek, Theon executing Ser Rodrick himself after taking Winterfell, no Damphair, no siege of Storm's End, no Riverrun, Tyrion making Bronn Commander of the Gold Cloaks, Sansa being almost raped, no Jorgen and Meera, no dead city for Dany, Irri dying, Pyatt stealing the draogns, Xaros killing the other Thirteen and declaring himself King of Qarth, Arya not going exploring in the wartorn riverlands, Arya serving as cupbearer to Tywin and killing Ser Amory Lorch in a non-accidental way, etc. etc. etc.

And I imagine they'll do more in the coming seasons. Particularly Season 4 and onwards, because quite frankly AFFC is kind of boring and I haven't heard high praise for ADWD. That's fine. But why rush it. The creators have shown that when they see a way to bring something out for television (Twyin/Charles Dance's presence, more early development of Ygritte, etc.) they'll take it. And the hardcore book-readers, who you can see on IMDB or any comment section about the show, have already gone ballistic.

But they're a tiny fraction of the show's audience. For HBO to completely discard the books in S1 simply as to not risk pissing off fans when they reach AFFC is ridiculous. The first three books are great stories and make for captivating television. When the time comes, they'll do what they have to do. The creators shouldn't be criticized for staying relatively close to the first two books when the results have been fantastic.

I haven't been watching this on HBO, but they really changed all that?! Reek, Meera, and Jorgen seem like important characters, to me. I'm in the middle of A Storm Of Swords, right now. They really switched some things up, huh?

[Monsieur Xavier]

I have a question about the seasons : do they last a very long time in the other parts of the world too ( Dothraki land / Qarth etc ) ?

[Buford The Sly]

I have a question about the seasons : do they last a very long time in the other parts of the world too ( Dothraki land / Qarth etc ) ?

Not all the areas of the Essos globe are affected by winter. It seems like it's more a Northern hemisphere type of thing however it hasn't been fully explained in the books. For example Dorne does not get a full fledged winter like the rest of Westeros does. Braavos seems to get affected by winter but that is a Northern city on the continent that the Dothraki are located on.

[Thundercrack85]

I assume that the planet has a strange orbit. That would explain the unpredictable, long lasting seasons.

Have we seen a moon in the sky yet?

[Oberon sexton]

Essos is affected by the Winter, perhaps not the same as Westeros but there is an affect.
The Dothraki sea dries up in times of winter, so yeah it's a global thing.

[Poeman]

GRRM will build a encyclopedia to milk more cash when hes in his dying days

[nite-owl]

Speaking of recasting, the new mountain just doesn't have the screen presence of the old one. Probably doesn't help that his scenes thus far have consisted of Tywin chastising him.

I hope to God they can Conan Stevens back for seasons 3 & 4.

[Spidey-Bat]

I assume that the planet has a strange orbit. That would explain the unpredictable, long lasting seasons.

Have we seen a moon in the sky yet?

The seasons are irregular due to magic.

I don't know if we've seen a moon but there is one since the Dothraki talked about it last season.

[ChickenScratch]

I assume that the planet has a strange orbit. That would explain the unpredictable, long lasting seasons.

Have we seen a moon in the sky yet?

One of the planet's moons cracked open, flames and fire leaped out giving birth to the first dragons. Just another little side story moment not covered in the TV show so far.

We can also assume that the loss of one of the planet's 2 moons is what screwed up their orbit and the seasons. But we are also taking this from people who's scientific knowledge is middle ages at best.

[Thundercrack85]

They should have a character who got sent to the Wall for saying the planet revolves around the sun.

[Oberon sexton]

They did mention the Moon breaking open and Dragons coming out, Doreah mentioned it first season.

[Spidey-Bat]

One of the planet's moons cracked open, flames and fire leaped out giving birth to the first dragons. Just another little side story moment not covered in the TV show so far.

We can also assume that the loss of one of the planet's 2 moons is what screwed up their orbit and the seasons. But we are also taking this from people who's scientific knowledge is middle ages at best.

That story was mentioned in the first season. I don't recall it being mentioned in the book, at least nothing more than a legend.

GRRM confirmed that the irregular seasons were due to magic.

[ChickenScratch]

It's mentioned in there, the stories of sailors if I recall correctly.

[cyborg ninja 14]

The seasons are irregular due to magic.

I don't know if we've seen a moon but there is one since the Dothraki talked about it last season.

Showing a moon would cut into their dragon budget:o

[Thundercrack85]

All you have to do is shoot during a full moon and point the camera upwards.

[DACrowe]

I haven't been watching this on HBO, but they really changed all that?! Reek, Meera, and Jorgen seem like important characters, to me. I'm in the middle of A Storm Of Swords, right now. They really switched some things up, huh?

They more have just really condensed things. It makes sense when you watch the show. As it turns out, 10 hours for ACOK is still not really enough. So, events are really crammed together and streamlined. The show is already chalk full of tons of characters that some viewers have trouble keeping up with. TAking out Jojen and Meera makes sense. We may see them in S3, but their attributes in the story were contributed to either Osha or Bran himself (dreams about the sea coming to Winterfell). They also took out the two Walders who picked on Bran and played with Rickon.

As for Reek. There is a character serving his function right now, but he claims he's from the Iron Islands. Theon just revealed the dead children in 2.7, so we'll know soon enough the truth of the matter. Time will tell.

[SWAT]

Kristofer Hivju (The Thing) said he was at an audition yesterday and has made it another round. All thanks to the rumour that he was auditioning for a role.

[DarthSkywalker]

I still can't process much of the last episode. I have seen it five times and still all I can think of is Ygritte.

[Dark Sentinel]

That story was mentioned in the first season. I don't recall it being mentioned in the book, at least nothing more than a legend.

GRRM confirmed that the irregular seasons were due to magic.

I remember reading that as well, though it's fun to think up "scientific" explanations as to why that is. Personally I think it could be a combination of an irregular orbit around the planet's sun and a slow planetary rotation with an erratic wobble.

[rashad]

'Game of Thrones:' First Blackwater battle photo
by James Hibberd (http://www.ew.com/ew/james-hibberd)

Game of Thrones penultimate Battle of the Blackwater episode is only a little over a week away and HBO has just released the first image from the fight. Here’s Bronn (Jerome Flynn) taking aim on a cliff, with — I believe — part of Blackwater Bay and King’s Landing behind him. (And, yes, book readers, Blackwater will take place at night. As executive producer David Benioff told us: “Flaming arrows at night look gorgeous.”)

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/18/game-of-thrones-blackwater-photo/

http://i.imgur.com/gyBGGl.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/gyBGG.jpg)


Synopsis for Season Finale, Episode 20 "Valar Morghulis"
Episode #20: “Valar Morghulis” (season finale)

Debut: SUNDAY, JUNE 3 (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET/PT)

Other HBO playdates: June 3 (11:10 p.m.), 5 (11:00 p.m.), 6 (10:00 p.m.) and 9 (10:45 p.m.)
HBO2 playdates: June 4 (9:00 p.m.), 7 (8:00 p.m.), 8 (11:00 p.m.) and 10 (4:20 p.m.)

As Theon (Alfie Allen) stirs his men to action, Luwin (Donald Sumpter) offers some final advice. Brienne (Gwendolyn Christie) silences Jaime; Arya (Maisie Williams) receives a gift from Jaqen(Tom Wlaschiha); Dany (Emilia Clarke) goes to a strange place; and Jon (KitHarington) proves himself to Qhorin (Simon Armstrong).

Written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss; directed by Alan Taylor.

[Valaquen]

By the way has Beric Dondarrion been cast yet?

He was in season 1. Ned sends him after Clegane whilst handling the King's duties. See him here: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Beric_Dondarrion

[cyborg ninja 14]

[
Synopsis for Season Finale, Episode 20 "Valar Morghulis"
[/B]

Hmm, so Houses of Undying in finale perhaps? I guess, I'd prefer it this upcoming episode.

He was in season 1. Ned sends him after Clegane whilst handling the King's duties. See him here: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Beric_Dondarrion

Curious if that actor is still under contract, I would assume so

[rayc1971]

They more have just really condensed things. It makes sense when you watch the show. As it turns out, 10 hours for ACOK is still not really enough. So, events are really crammed together and streamlined. The show is already chalk full of tons of characters that some viewers have trouble keeping up with. TAking out Jojen and Meera makes sense. We may see them in S3, but their attributes in the story were contributed to either Osha or Bran himself (dreams about the sea coming to Winterfell). They also took out the two Walders who picked on Bran and played with Rickon.

As for Reek. There is a character serving his function right now, but he claims he's from the Iron Islands. Theon just revealed the dead children in 2.7, so we'll know soon enough the truth of the matter. Time will tell.
so you think the guy who is putting ideas in theons head right now is really reek ala ramsay bolton? never thought of that could be.

[Parker Wayne]

Theon's sister owned him. :funny:

[rashad]

Great episode. Next week is going to be insane. :wow: Battle of Blackwater my God!!!

[DACrowe]

I was kind of disappointed with this episode. I thought the last four episodes (2.4-2.7) have been great, but things really slowed down this week. The major twists showed were either revealed at the start and left for a later date (Catelyn let Jaime escape with Brienne) or are only tres important if you read the books (Robb making love with not his betrothed).

The only exciting thing was Arya's escape, but even that was a bit of a letdown. I'm not one to complain about changes in the book but the "Weasel Soup" scene is one of the funniest and most exciting sequences in the first four GRRM books that I've read. For it to be changed to just a bunch of dead guys at the gate was kind of sad. It could've been a great action scene and one of the highlights of the season.

Oh well. Next week should be one of the show's very best. Though they better keep the chain to showcase Tyrion's tactical brilliance! :o

My thoughts.

[Marvolo]

Enjoyed seeing Jeyne's assets but overall it was a slow episode. That being said, I've come to expect this right before a big episode in any series. Next week's episode is going to be insane! May the god of tits and wine bless the wee man. :woot:

[rashad]

"Where are the gods of tits & wine."

[Poeman]

next its the battle of blackwater.

LEGGO

[Marvolo]

"Where are the gods of tits & wine."

I've been asking that question my whole life.

[rayc1971]

Enjoyed seeing Jeyne's assets but overall it was a slow episode. That being said, I've come to expect this right before a big episode in any series. Next week's episode is going to be insane! May the god of tits and wine bless the wee man. :woot:
omg jeyne has a rockin body! bring on blackwater the epic battle we been waiting for.

[Thundercrack85]

Theon's sister owned him. :funny:

Pretty bad when a viking tells you you crossed a line.

Episode was slow, but they did accomplish a lot. Really need more Tyrion Varys scenes. And at least Joffery seems to be growing a backbone. Probably just empty bravado though.

They did make Stannis a bit more likable this episode. Hardly charismatic, but at least he's fair.

[Speedball]

I feel like they needed an episode heavy in exposition before the epicness that will hopefully be in the next episode. I don't expect a lot of sitting around and talking in the next episode.

[Thundercrack85]

I've been asking that question my whole life.

Actually there is one, Dionysus. Also the god of drunken orgies.

[Marvolo]

Actually there is one, Dionysus. Also the god of drunken orgies.

Oh yes, how could I have forgotten about dear ol Dionysus.

[rashad]

Game Of Thrones Season 2: Episode 19 - War Of The Kings Trailer
uwgOzLG5IGo

New trailer shows more snippets of the Blackwater battle! My goodness!

[DarthSkywalker]

Can we get a golf clap going for Robb? The Young Wolf just made it with the finest backside it Westeros and that is saying something.

[rayc1971]

Can we get a golf clap going for Robb? The Young Wolf just made it with the finest backside it Westeros and that is saying something.
you can say that again!she is not that great lookin in the face but that backside is awsome!she has the best body ive seen even better than dany

[Oberon sexton]

It's all those Charlie Chaplin genes, makes for damn fine offspring :awesome:

[DarthSkywalker]

you can say that again!she is not that great lookin in the face but that backside is awsome!she has the best body ive seen even better than dany

Really? I find her face to be quite beautiful.

As to bodies. I say she is right at the top of the list with Ros and Mel. I find it funny that Dany looks in far better physical shape this season and she hasn't got naked once. :o

[rashad]

^She is very beautiful. Face and all.

[Crockett]

I pretty much expected that the weasel soup scene wast going to happen since they've changed so that Arya is confined most of her time as a cup-bearer to Tywin and not around at all in the kitchen and the dining hall but I don't mind it. However at this point TV Arya is less badass than book Arya, but she'll have next season to make up for it.

And that Dany scene wasn't needed at all, The House of the Undying was set up from last week's episode so I'd hoped they finally go there in this episode but nope, I guess it'll be in the next episode and the finale ending with her setting sail to Astapor or perhaps if Blackwater takes a huge focus on the ninth episode, they'll condensed HotU & going out of Qarth in the last episode.

So excited for next week, GRRM & Neil Marshall takes on the Battle of Blackwater. :woot:

[Havok83]

Joffrey is 17? I thought he was like Sansa's age. Boy looks way so young for 17

[nite-owl]

It make sense that Stannis is a dog person.

[Poeman]

Spoilerific image of the Battle of Blackwater

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/images/news/game-of-thrones-photo-blackwater-battle.jpg

[rashad]

Posted on the previous page a few days ago. That shot is in the promo for next weeks episode.

[Crockett]

Joffrey is 17? I thought he was like Sansa's age. Boy looks way so young for 17

To think that the actor portraying Joffrey is actually 20.

[squeekness]

So there are two more episodes? Two weeks in a row during the preview they've said thre were two episodes left. Can these guys not count? :p

[Poeman]

So there are two more episodes? Two weeks in a row during the preview they've said thre were two episodes left. Can these guys not count? :p

Cant wait for the next week promo to say "2 WEEKS REMAIN"

[squeekness]

LOL, they are just stringing us along, jerkfaces! :p

[chaseter]

This ep was the quiet before the storm. Can't wait until next week!

[DarthSkywalker]

I pretty much expected that the weasel soup scene wast going to happen since they've changed so that Arya is confined most of her time as a cup-bearer to Tywin and not around at all in the kitchen and the dining hall but I don't mind it. However at this point TV Arya is less badass than book Arya, but she'll have next season to make up for it.

And that Dany scene wasn't needed at all, The House of the Undying was set up from last week's episode so I'd hoped they finally go there in this episode but nope, I guess it'll be in the next episode and the finale ending with her setting sail to Astapor or perhaps if Blackwater takes a huge focus on the ninth episode, they'll condensed HotU & going out of Qarth in the last episode.

So excited for next week, GRRM & Neil Marshall takes on the Battle of Blackwater. :woot:

There is big talk that everyone who isn't involved with Blackwater is going to be absent next week. So the HotU probably isn't happening until the finale.

[Mr.?]

Cool cameo by Shao Kahn last night.

[chaseter]

There is big talk that everyone who isn't involved with Blackwater is going to be absent next week. So the HotU probably isn't happening until the finale.

They aren't going to show a 50 minute battle. I would guess the first half of the ep is King's Landing preparing for battle and Stannis arriving. They will probably show Arya's current whereabouts, Jaimie Lannister's current whereabouts, John Snow's current whereabouts, and/or Rob's men taking back Winterfell (some or all of those will also be in the final ep). I would guess they end the ep with Dany entering the HotU.

[DarthSkywalker]

They aren't going to show a 50 minute battle. I would guess the first half of the ep is King's Landing preparing for battle and Stannis arriving. They will probably show Arya's current whereabouts, Jaimie Lannister's current whereabouts, John Snow's current whereabouts, and/or Rob's men taking back Winterfell (some or all of those will also be in the final ep). I would guess they end the ep with Dany entering the HotU.

Who is John Snow? :woot:

What has been hinted at by the D&D and even GRRM who wrote the episode, is that Blackwater is indeed all about Blackwater. It isn't simply a battle. There is the pre-battle, the battle, all the stuff going on around King's Landing during the battle (Sansa) and the coda.

We are going to be following Tyrion, Sansa, the Hound, Joffery, Cersei, Davos, Stannis, Varys, and Bronn.

And it makes sense when you read the synopsis for the final two episodes of the season and what the actors have been saying about how the season ends for them.

Most of everyone's arc is done or even has passed up their book equivalent. Only Dany, Theon and Jon have somethings to do and that is all mentioned in the final episode's synopsis. Most of the other things that would occur seems quite difficult considering the holding off of casting those parts until next season.

It is possible, but at this point I think it is unlikely we will see anything outside of King's Landing.

He is the episode's "Previously On".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YieTh_wwIcE&feature=plcp

It screams only Blackwater.

[DACrowe]

Can we get a golf clap going for Robb? The Young Wolf just made it with the finest backside it Westeros and that is saying something.

Good for Robb. But politically, he is behaving stupidly, in my opinion. I guess he really is Ned and Catelyn's son. :oldrazz:

[DACrowe]

They aren't going to show a 50 minute battle. I would guess the first half of the ep is King's Landing preparing for battle and Stannis arriving. They will probably show Arya's current whereabouts, Jaimie Lannister's current whereabouts, John Snow's current whereabouts, and/or Rob's men taking back Winterfell (some or all of those will also be in the final ep). I would guess they end the ep with Dany entering the HotU.

I highly doubt we're going to see Jaime/Brienne, Jon Snow or anything at Winterfell next week. I expect maybe a teaser of Arya on the run at the beginning of the episode and Dany entering the House of the Undying at the end. The rest of the episode will be KL. i do agree that it won't begin with the battle. But I suspect, given how much needs to happen during it, it will probably start by the 15-minute mark of the episode.

[DarthSkywalker]

Considering how Blackwater ends, I don't see why it isn't how the episode itself will end.

Good for Robb. But politically, he is behaving stupidly, in my opinion. I guess he really is Ned and Catelyn's son. :oldrazz:

Forget politics. The doc is far too fine to even consider politics in this situation.

[rashad]

http://i.imgur.com/7qXl2.jpg

Game Of Thrones Season 2: Episode 19 - Battle Tease
9WYMZUuNruA

[Asteroid-Man]

Game Of Thrones Season 2: Episode 19 - Battle Tease
9WYMZUuNruA
This should work now.

[Havok83]

To think that the actor portraying Joffrey is actually 20.
really? Wow and I thought he was like 14/15

[Bruce Malone]

I know the season is not over yet but anyone else get the feeling that the 1st season was the better out of the two?

I still enjoy the show but i had high hopes for season 2 and thought it would really improve over season 1 as most shows do in their second season. I remember some very epic episodes by this point last year. This whole season seems to be mostly just setting things up, which is actually what i thought the 1st season was for.

[Nevincer]

Am I the only one that felt what Catelyn did was really stupid?

[mr. peasant]

I know the season is not over yet but anyone else get the feeling that the 1st season was the better out of the two?

I still enjoy the show but i had high hopes for season 2 and thought it would really improve over season 1 as most shows do in their second season. I remember some very epic episodes by this point last year. This whole season seems to be mostly just setting things up, which is actually what i thought the 1st season was for.

This is likely because Season 1's simpler story/plot allowed for better pacing. One event flowed organically to the next and the various subplots (barring the Dothraki and White Walker storylines) came together towards the final third of the season. As such, it was convergent storytelling rather than divergent; allowing us to appreciate why certain events took place in the story

This isn't the case for Season 2 where supposed main characters are becoming increasingly scattered and become absent for long stretches of a time. All this contributes to a feeling of less build-up and tension - i.e. we don't feel that Robb is winning or that Stannis' fleet is getting near, etc.

In short, you're right - Season 1 was a much more polished story.

[Thundercrack85]

Yeah but what can they do about it? If they rewrite it, it could be inferior, and book fans will complain. If they don't, well, the show suffers.

[Thundercrack85]

Am I the only one that felt what Catelyn did was really stupid?

I'm not even sure I understand her plan. Is she trying to trade him? If so, seems like a lot to trust Brienne with (takes a lot of competency). Because simply sending him to King's Landing, or to Tywin is an even dumber idea.

[Marvolo]

In the book, Catelyn makes an agreement that Brienne will escort Jaime to Kings Landing where upon his honor he is bound to trade himself for Sansa and Arya. Stupid, you say? Why, yes it is. :awesome:

[mr. peasant]

Yeah but what can they do about it? If they rewrite it, it could be inferior, and book fans will complain. If they don't, well, the show suffers.

Hence my belief that the creators never should have remained faithful to the books - especially once past the first season (which primarily served as setup for the show's central conflict over the Iron Throne and which still had a straightforward enough plotline and character distribution to be amenable as a faithful adaptation) - and back themselves into a corner like that.


Yeah but what can they do about it? If they rewrite it, it could be inferior, and book fans will complain. If they don't, well, the show suffers.

It was a decision borne of desperation; which while arguably suitable for the book version of the character due to the time spent explaining the decision and insight to the character's mind, it is less so for the TV version of Catelyn who comes across with a steelier resolve.

[Thundercrack85]

In the book, Catelyn makes an agreement that Brienne will escort Jaime to Kings Landing where upon his honor he is bound to trade himself for Sansa and Arya. Stupid, you say? Why, yes it is. :awesome:

Didn't she just go on a rant about how he has no honor in that very episode. And aren't these the same people who went back on their word, and cut her husband's head off?

Safe to say this will end well.

[FVD]

Who is John Snow? :woot:

What has been hinted at by the D&D and even GRRM who wrote the episode, is that Blackwater is indeed all about Blackwater. It isn't simply a battle. There is the pre-battle, the battle, all the stuff going on around King's Landing during the battle (Sansa) and the coda.

We are going to be following Tyrion, Sansa, the Hound, Joffery, Cersei, Davos, Stannis, Varys, and Bronn.

And it makes sense when you read the synopsis for the final two episodes of the season and what the actors have been saying about how the season ends for them.

Most of everyone's arc is done or even has passed up their book equivalent. Only Dany, Theon and Jon have somethings to do and that is all mentioned in the final episode's synopsis. Most of the other things that would occur seems quite difficult considering the holding off of casting those parts until next season.

It is possible, but at this point I think it is unlikely we will see anything outside of King's Landing.

He is the episode's "Previously On".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YieTh_wwIcE&feature=plcp

It screams only Blackwater.

I for one does hope that the Season Finale would at least show Bran and Rickon being alive and with Maester Luwin being relieved before he dies.

[Oberon sexton]

Didn't she just go on a rant about how he has no honor in that very episode. And aren't these the same people who went back on their word, and cut her husband's head off?

Safe to say this will end well.
Well it's more Tyrion she's putting her faith in, remember he did send her back Ned's bones.

[RaZaTrOn]

I for one does hope that the Season Finale would at least show Bran and Rickon being alive and with Maester Luwin being relieved before he dies.

This happened in the latest episode did it not?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Despite being slow I enjoyed this episode, we at least got to spend some time with Robb and Jon, who are the characters I find the most interesting. Tyrrion is always gold as well.

[FVD]

This happened in the latest episode did it not?

I haven't watched it yet lol!! ;)

[Pink Ranger]

Not having read the books, who are the three men in the known kingdoms that Jamie speculated could actually best him in combat? Is it just a throwaway line or is it covered in the books?

[Crockett]

Not having read the books, who are the three men in the known kingdoms that Jamie speculated could actually best him in combat? Is it just a throwaway line or is it covered in the books?

I don't recall that in the books but Barristan Selmy is definitely one (excellent knight during his prime and considered one of the greatest, not to mention Jaime respects the man), maybe Gregor since he's huge (well not in the TV show he's not :oldrazz:) and the last one, I'm not sure but I'd say Oberyn Martell also known as the Red Viper (he held himself up pretty well against someone in ASOS).

[Spidey-Bat]

I know two are Gregor Clegane (The Mountain) and Sandor Clegane (The Hound), he mentions both are stronger than him. The third is likely Barristan Selmy who is the greatest living knight in Westeros and the last true knight.

[Monsieur Xavier]

Something I don't understand from the previous episode : Theon knew the Stark boys right ? So how does he not realize that he killed the wrong children or he just faked their death to look "badass" ?

[DACrowe]

He faked their deaths, because he thought he'd look too incompetent if he let them get away. Instead, he looks like a vile monster. Which he kind of has become.

[DACrowe]

I know the season is not over yet but anyone else get the feeling that the 1st season was the better out of the two?

I still enjoy the show but i had high hopes for season 2 and thought it would really improve over season 1 as most shows do in their second season. I remember some very epic episodes by this point last year. This whole season seems to be mostly just setting things up, which is actually what i thought the 1st season was for.

Different strokes. I think most people tend to only remember episode 9 and 10 from S1. Ned dies, Drogo dies, and dragons are born. There will be some nice "big events" in S2's final episodes but nothing as major as Ned or dragons (though S3's ending will be even bigger than S1's).

However, the rest of S2--what we've seen thus far--is far more satisfying to me than S1. Yes, there is a bit of an overstuffed quality to S2 that will be helped in future seasons when they quit trying to adapt a whole book, and instead focus on certain stories they want to tell. But S2's stories are far more interesting to me and there's a lot more happening. All of S1 feels like a long drawn out build up to me towards Ned being executed and the inevitable war between the Starks and Lannisters that follows. Other than Dany's storyline, everyone else is just kind of standing around waiting as Ned gets closer to the truth until he discovers it in like episode 7 and then the fall out over the two episodes after that.

In S2, there is a lot less set-up. Instead we see the war that S1 built to over its first 9 episodes. We see the Baratheons fighting, we see Renly die, the Iron Islands invade the North, Theon betray Robb and take Winterfell, etc. INdividual returning characters, for the most part, seem to have more to do. Jon Snow in S1 just stood around the Wall sighing about being a virgin bastard. In S2 he is beyond the Wall, ranging, meeting Ygritte, captured by Wildlings and trying to meet their "king." In S1, Arya had a few great scenes with Syrio Forel, but otherwise chased cats and whined about Sansa until episode 10. In S2, Arya has been traveling under a constantly shifting identity, captured, nearly tortured by the Mountain, matched wits with Tywin Lannister and acquired a master assassin to do her bidding.

I mean it's all personal taste, but I think S2 has been better than S1 in every regard, save that I don't think the final episode is going to leave people breathless like it did last year.

[DACrowe]

I'm not even sure I understand her plan. Is she trying to trade him? If so, seems like a lot to trust Brienne with (takes a lot of competency). Because simply sending him to King's Landing, or to Tywin is an even dumber idea.

In the show, if Jaime stayed a prisoner much longer, Karstark out of vengeance would have murdered him while Robb was gone. A dead Jaime means for certain that Cersei/Joffrey will murder Sansa (and she believes Arya who isn't there). So, instead of letting that happens, she takes up her deal with Tyrion (as presented by Littlefinger), not Cersei or Jaime, to let Jaime go in exchange for her daughter(s). She also makes Jaime swear by the sword and on his own life that he will never raise hand against the Starks or Tullys (Cat's ancestral family) again. That will likely come up in future episodes.

In the book, Catelyn makes an agreement that Brienne will escort Jaime to Kings Landing where upon his honor he is bound to trade himself for Sansa and Arya. Stupid, you say? Why, yes it is. :awesome:

Yes and no. At first glance it's stupid, but Cat's decision saves a lot of lives in Riverrun. Jaime keeps his oath and ends the siege of Riverrun without firing a shot, executing Edmure Tully, or getting her entire family massacred. If it was just the Freys there, you know that would happen. Jaime also attempts to keep the promise by sending Brienne to find Sansa.

Robb made a much bigger mistake this week.

[Monsieur Xavier]

He faked their deaths, because he thought he'd look too incompetent if he let them get away. Instead, he looks like a vile monster. Which he kind of has become.

He stills look incompetent since his men ( his Lieutenant at least ) knows the truth. Well so be it but I don't find that very smart at all.

[Marvolo]

In the show, if Jaime stayed a prisoner much longer, Karstark out of vengeance would have murdered him while Robb was gone. A dead Jaime means for certain that Cersei/Joffrey will murder Sansa (and she believes Arya who isn't there). So, instead of letting that happens, she takes up her deal with Tyrion (as presented by Littlefinger), not Cersei or Jaime, to let Jaime go in exchange for her daughter(s). She also makes Jaime swear by the sword and on his own life that he will never raise hand against the Starks or Tullys (Cat's ancestral family) again. That will likely come up in future episodes.



Yes and no. At first glance it's stupid, but Cat's decision saves a lot of lives in Riverrun. Jaime keeps his oath and ends the siege of Riverrun without firing a shot, executing Edmure Tully, or getting her entire family massacred. If it was just the Freys there, you know that would happen. Jaime also attempts to keep the promise by sending Brienne to find Sansa.

Robb made a much bigger mistake this week.

I just didn't feel like going into all that, but I agree. Lol Rob made a wonderful mistake.

[Spidey-Bat]

He stills look incompetent since his men ( his Lieutenant at least ) knows the truth. Well so be it but I don't find that very smart at all.

Well, Theon isn't smart so him doing something stupid is expected.

[MarvelKnight]

This show is great.

[Thundercrack85]

Jaime talks big. But at least in the show, Ned held his own against him.

He reminds me of the stereotypical jerk jock. Just wait till he sprains his ankle, and becomes completely useless. Surprised it never occurred to them to cut his hands off.

[DACrowe]

Jaime talks big. But at least in the show, Ned held his own against him.

He reminds me of the stereotypical jerk jock. Just wait till he sprains his ankle, and becomes completely useless. Surprised it never occurred to them to cut his hands off.

That'd be barbaric. Something the Starks are not.

However, Jaime's sword hand is at the very least one of the five best in Westeros right now.

[Pink Ranger]

He reminds me of the stereotypical jerk jock. Just wait till he sprains his ankle, and becomes completely useless. Surprised it never occurred to them to cut his hands off.

Cause anything they do to Jaimie gets done to Sansa and (they think) Arya.

[Thundercrack85]

Cause anything they do to Jaimie gets done to Sansa and (they think) Arya.

Considering Joffrey was going to torture her, until Tyrion stepped in, that's not much of an assurance. But I guess that makes sense.

[Bruce Malone]

Different strokes. I think most people tend to only remember episode 9 and 10 from S1. Ned dies, Drogo dies, and dragons are born. There will be some nice "big events" in S2's final episodes but nothing as major as Ned or dragons (though S3's ending will be even bigger than S1's).

However, the rest of S2--what we've seen thus far--is far more satisfying to me than S1. Yes, there is a bit of an overstuffed quality to S2 that will be helped in future seasons when they quit trying to adapt a whole book, and instead focus on certain stories they want to tell. But S2's stories are far more interesting to me and there's a lot more happening. All of S1 feels like a long drawn out build up to me towards Ned being executed and the inevitable war between the Starks and Lannisters that follows. Other than Dany's storyline, everyone else is just kind of standing around waiting as Ned gets closer to the truth until he discovers it in like episode 7 and then the fall out over the two episodes after that.

In S2, there is a lot less set-up. Instead we see the war that S1 built to over its first 9 episodes. We see the Baratheons fighting, we see Renly die, the Iron Islands invade the North, Theon betray Robb and take Winterfell, etc. INdividual returning characters, for the most part, seem to have more to do. Jon Snow in S1 just stood around the Wall sighing about being a virgin bastard. In S2 he is beyond the Wall, ranging, meeting Ygritte, captured by Wildlings and trying to meet their "king." In S1, Arya had a few great scenes with Syrio Forel, but otherwise chased cats and whined about Sansa until episode 10. In S2, Arya has been traveling under a constantly shifting identity, captured, nearly tortured by the Mountain, matched wits with Tywin Lannister and acquired a master assassin to do her bidding.

I mean it's all personal taste, but I think S2 has been better than S1 in every regard, save that I don't think the final episode is going to leave people breathless like it did last year.


Perhaps it's all in perspective. I actually became a much bigger fan of season 1 when i re-watched the episodes again. However i would add episode 6 from season 1 as one of the great memorable episodes with the death of vysaries.
It may be the fact that you had read the books before season 1? As someone who didn't the build up to ned's actual death came as a surprise.

I think most would agree as well that dany's story arc over the 1st season was more enjoyable.

Yeah i agree that future season's will benefit when the whole 1 book 1 season philosophy dan and d.b had early on is replaced by adapting the story as a whole.

[DACrowe]

Viserys's death was great. I think the death of Renly had as much impact on the story, but the execution of the actual scene was disappointing (though I thought Yoren had a great death scene this season and the birth of the shadow baby was very memorable).

I hadn't read the books before S1. I just think the individual stories are more engrossing in S2. But I will agree that the narrative is simpler and easier-to-follow in the first season. I just like the story better in the second season, even if there hasn't been a Ned-scale scene. Different tastes.

[Thundercrack85]

I still think they killed Renly very prematurely. He could have been an interesting (and based on his banter with Stannis, fun) character.

His death was also treated like an afterthought. Nobody really cared, except Brienne. Stannis walked over his corpse, and took control of his army before they body was cold. The people at King's Landing just shrugged, Robb didn't even ask his mother about it (unless I misremember)... and that's it.

[ChickenScratch]

I still think they killed Renly very prematurely. He could have been an interesting (and based on his banter with Stannis, fun) character.

His death was also treated like an afterthought. Nobody really cared, except Brienne. Stannis walked over his corpse, and took control of his army before they body was cold. The people at King's Landing just shrugged, Robb didn't even ask his mother about it (unless I misremember)... and that's it.

The "they" who killed Renly you are refering to Is GRRm, and his death is much more interesting story wise I think. I think Brianne and Jamie as a duo could not come about without Renly's death.

[Thundercrack85]

I'm not saying keep him alive forever, just don't kill him so early. We barely knew the guy. Then just as he gets real characterization... shadow abomination, death, nobody cares.

[ChickenScratch]

Well sorry to tell you, but it's already been published and the story is what it is. We knew the guy lots, there's a whole book and a half (or season and a half if you prefer). His death serves to move the story forward, and he's dead so he's lost the game. That castle intrigue and machinations of everyone wanting power can be tough.

[childeroland]

There's too much story they'd have to change if they kept him alive. Even if they'd let him live for a little longer, there's too much other stuff they'd have to push back.

[Oberon sexton]

What I'm really excited about seeing, (and will be extremely pissed off if they cut out) is the stuff in the House of the Undying.
I'm reay curious who they cast as Rhaegar and Aerys

[DarthSkywalker]

Renly's death, like Ned's, has to happen when it does. There is no changing it.

[DarthSkywalker]

What I'm really excited about seeing, (and will be extremely pissed off if they cut out) is the stuff in the House of the Undying.
I'm reay curious who they cast as Rhaegar and Aerys

I am 95% sure we are not going to get any character specific visions. If Rhaegar and Aerys were cast, we'd know. If anything it will be shadowy figures that Dany will mention recognizing.

The only chance I think we will ever have of seeing Rhaegar is if they make it to the point in the series when Jon learns the truth about his mother and father.

[Oberon sexton]

I am 95% sure we are not going to get any character specific visions. If Rhaegar and Aerys were cast, we'd know. If anything it will be shadowy figures that Dany will mention recognizing.

The only chance I think we will ever have of seeing Rhaegar is if they make it to the point in the series when Jon learns the truth about his mother and father.
:huh:
How would they go about cutting out that scene with Rhaegar talking about the prince who was promised and the song of Ice and Fire

Removing that basically undermines the entire series.

[Pink Ranger]

I'm not saying keep him alive forever, just don't kill him so early. We barely knew the guy. Then just as he gets real characterization... shadow abomination, death, nobody cares.

Speaking as an outsider (someone who's never read the books, and likely won't get around to it any time soon) I believe one of the strengths of this story is that it presents plotlines that are somewhat familiar, but then don't turn out the way you want them to. Ned is the one good man in the kingdoms, yet he is killed in a disgraceful manner. The power of story tells us that his sons should then wreak havoc on his killers, but then that doesn't really happen. The power of story tells us that Khal Drogo and his army should already be marching on Westeros, but that doesn't happen.

[DarthSkywalker]

:huh:
How would they go about cutting out that scene with Rhaegar talking about the prince who was promised and the song of Ice and Fire

Removing that basically undermines the entire series.

Of course it doesn't.

The information has already been made known by Mel and there are plenty of others who talk about the prophecies in their inaccurate ways. The three heads of the dragon can come up many ways.

Also I am sure Dany will hear things and will exposition afterwords.

[cyborg ninja 14]

The only chance I think we will ever have of seeing Rhaegar is if they make it to the point in the series when Jon learns the truth about his mother and father.

The truth that may not be the truth? I personally don't buy the R+J+J because it's too obvious and I doubt GRRM would just let that be the case since most of the fanbase believes its true. I bet he'll throw a curveball at us when and if he finally reveals his true parentage.

[Jordacar]

Of course it doesn't.

The information has already been made known by Mel and there are plenty of others who talk about the prophecies in their inaccurate ways. The three heads of the dragon can come up many ways.

Also I am sure Dany will hear things and will exposition afterwords.I'm hoping Dany goes to the House of the Undying, gets the peyote-induced info, kills everyone with magic, and puts Qarth in her rearview like a boss.

I wonder if there's any chance of a prequel movie, kinda like BSG did with "Razor" or "The Plan". Not that the show really needs it, but it'd be cool to see some of the backstory that everyone's always taking about, the Mad King being nutso, and of course Rhaegar and Robert's final showdown. GRRM could write it himself.

[rayc1971]

I'm hoping Dany goes to the House of the Undying, gets the peyote-induced info, kills everyone with magic, and puts Qarth in her rearview like a boss.

I wonder if there's any chance of a prequel movie, kinda like BSG did with "Razor" or "The Plan". Not that the show really needs it, but it'd be cool to see some of the backstory that everyone's always taking about, the Mad King being nutso, and of course Rhaegar and Robert's final showdown. GRRM could write it himself.
i was thinkin the same thing they could do a 2 hr prequel movie.i wouuld love to see a young robert with his war hammer kicking butt.they could just cover that period we could then see lyanna neds sister who robert loved and the mad king and john arynn.they could show it in between seasons so we dont have to wait a year to get our fill of thrones.

[DACrowe]

I'm not saying keep him alive forever, just don't kill him so early. We barely knew the guy. Then just as he gets real characterization... shadow abomination, death, nobody cares.

I believe that's intentional. The writers of the show wanted you to care about or at least like Renly (though there are many who don't). Then after being built up for the first four episodes, boom he gets whacked in episode 5. The actual scene wasn't done dramatically enough, IMO, but the effect is disappointment that he died. In that sense, it worked, in my opinion.

[Oberon sexton]

Didn't they cast an actor as Aerys last season but not use that particular scene? I remember reading reading that somewhere...

[cyborg ninja 14]

Didn't they cast an actor as Aerys last season but not use that particular scene? I remember reading reading that somewhere...

you spose they'll do the wolf head on a king? it more or less gives away Robb's death if they use a wolf similar to Grey Wind. Who knows how they deal with that particular potential spoiler for non-book readers.

[cyborg ninja 14]

I know two are Gregor Clegane (The Mountain) and Sandor Clegane (The Hound), he mentions both are stronger than him. The third is likely Barristan Selmy who is the greatest living knight in Westeros and the last true knight.

No Arthur Dayne? fabled sword of the morning?

[DarthSkywalker]

The truth that may not be the truth? I personally don't buy the R+J+J because it's too obvious and I doubt GRRM would just let that be the case since most of the fanbase believes its true. I bet he'll throw a curveball at us when and if he finally reveals his true parentage.

GRRM has already said he would not change things just because the fanbase has guessed it. Considering the Tower of Joy and how the show's first season handled the issue, it has to be the truth. What else could Ned have promised to Lyanna? What else would still be relevant to the story? Why hide Jon's true mother for so long? Why does Ned and so many others think fondly of Rhaegar if he kidnapped and raped his sister?

Considering the title of the series and what happened at the end of ADWD, it feels almost a certainty now. Not to mention Bran's vision and Jon's dream. Ned in front of the Weirwood and Jon clad in armor of black ice and holding a flaming red sword? Come on.

Jon at some point will visit the crypts of Winterfell and with a little help from Bloodraven and Bran will learn the truth. That he is the AA reborn, TPTWP, the song of ice and fire and the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[Thundercrack85]

Haven't read the books, but as someone watching the show, I felt that they made it clear that Barristan is the best swordsman. Ned Stark's scared of the guy. And just watch how everyone freaks out when he pulls his sword out in the throne room. They seem to agree that he could carve them all like a cake.

[DarthSkywalker]

No Arthur Dayne? fabled sword of the morning?

He is dead. If he were alive? Well in his prime he was probably second only to Daemon Blackfyre. Ser Barristan is the best living warrior around. He'd slap the Hound and the Mountain around.

Right now it goes something like this.

1. Ser Barristan Selmy
2. The Kingslayer
3. Mance Rayder
4. Loras Tyrell
5. The Clegane bros.

Jaime was probably referring to Selmy and Tyrell. The other was probably the Mountain. If Drogo was still alive, he'd run the top three close.

[Oberon sexton]

Selmy is the man, when he dove in front of Drogon to protect Dany.
that takes some serious bravery, a Knight who remembers his vows.
you spose they'll do the wolf head on a king? it more or less gives away Robb's death if they use a wolf similar to Grey Wind. Who knows how they deal with that particular potential spoiler for non-book readers.
Well assuming they actually do go full on with the visions I would imagine that they could pull it off, I mean they could make it really triply and off the wall so that it's vague enough not to spoil much.

[mr. peasant]

He is dead. If he were alive? Well in his prime he was probably second only to Daemon Blackfyre. Ser Barristan is the best living warrior around. He'd slap the Hound and the Mountain around.

Right now it goes something like this.

1. Ser Barristan Selmy
2. The Kingslayer
3. Mance Rayder
4. Loras Tyrell
5. The Clegane bros.

Jaime was probably referring to Selmy and Tyrell. The other was probably the Mountain. If Drogo was still alive, he'd run the top three close.

When he said there were only three men who could stand a chance in a fair fight, I reckon that the number was used simply because the numbers 'one' and 'three' sound best (the latter due to the rule of three). Two, four, five, etc have supposedly less 'oomph'.

But if I had to guess their identities; one must first understand its implications. As a proud man whose one skill is in fighting with a sword, anyone who he would admit could stand up against him in a fight is someone he respects and view as an equal or superior. With that in mind, I doubt he'd be referring to either of the Clegane brothers (especially Sandor who is pretty much a dog as far as Jaime's concerned). My guess is that he's referring to Selmy, Tywin and his Uncle Kevan.

[DarthSkywalker]

When he said there were only three men who could stand a chance in a fair fight, I reckon that the number was used simply because the numbers 'one' and 'three' sound best (the latter due to the rule of three). Two, four, five, etc have supposedly less 'oomph'.

But if I had to guess their identities; one must first understand its implications. As a proud man whose one skill is in fighting with a sword, anyone who he would admit could stand up against him in a fight is someone he respects and view as an equal or superior. With that in mind, I doubt he'd be referring to either of the Clegane brothers (especially Sandor who is pretty much a dog as far as Jaime's concerned). My guess is that he's referring to Selmy, Tywin and his Uncle Kevan.

Jaime is no longer a proud man and is a realist when it comes to combat. As much as he loves to romanticizes his own status, he appreciates the skills of others. Loras is renowned by the entire realm and the Mountain feared by most. Their status isn't in question. Everyone and their mother in Westeros, including Jaime, wouldn't take Tywin or Kevan in singles combat with either of those two men.

[Oberon sexton]

He mentioned in the books that the Clegane's would give him trouble.
Though I think he didn't count them because they were freakishly big or something like that ?

[DarthSkywalker]

He mentioned in the books that the Clegane's would give him trouble.
Though I think he didn't count them because they were freakishly big or something like that ?

Considering what Gregor can do with one blow, yeah.

[Oberon sexton]

That makes me really wonder how exactly Sandor would fair in a full on battle to the death against his brother. I mean Sandor's tough no doubt about it but as you said Gregor can kill with one punch, and he wields a freaking great sword one handed!

[DarthSkywalker]

Sandor is more skilled then Gregor, no doubt. But he lacks the advantages of say a Oberyn Martell, Mance Rayder or Jaime. He lacks the speed, cunning and elusiveness that it takes to fight his brother.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I know two are Gregor Clegane (The Mountain) and Sandor Clegane (The Hound), he mentions both are stronger than him. The third is likely Barristan Selmy who is the greatest living knight in Westeros and the last true knight.

Has this character been in the show at all yet?

[DarthSkywalker]

Has this character been in the show at all yet?

Yes. He was the LC of Robert's Kingsguard. He had more then a few scenes and was named more then once. His exit was kind of a big deal.

[mr. peasant]

Jaime is no longer a proud man and is a realist when it comes to combat. As much as he loves to romanticizes his own status, he appreciates the skills of others. Loras is renowned by the entire realm and the Mountain feared by most. Their status isn't in question. Everyone and their mother in Westeros, including Jaime, wouldn't take Tywin or Kevan in singles combat with either of those two men.

I'm pretty sure Jaime is a proud man. It's what Tywin chewed him out for when last they met and he hasn't really grown much as a character since. Yes, he's no longer as proud in the books due to certain recent events but in the show, he most definitely is; as seen by his continued behaviour around Robb, Catelyn and now Brienne.

I agree that he's probably a realist but that does not preclude him from pride. Being a realist means that one recognises and not underestimate a threat. However, it doesn't mean one would openly acknowledge it and tell others; least of all a complete stranger.


Has this character been in the show at all yet?
Yes. He was the LC of Robert's Kingsguard. He had more then a few scenes and was named more then once. His exit was kind of a big deal.

For a potentially more detailed description, Barristan Selmy was the old man who was the main Kingsguard shown in Season 1, who was with Robert during the hunting accident and who later Joffrey ordered to have retire. In that last scene, he drew his sword, declaring he could probably still take on the rest of the Kingsguard by himself before chucking his sword at Joffrey's feet and leaving in disgust.

[DarthSkywalker]

Jaime is not proud at this point in the show. He is basically in a state of self-loathing that he is taking out on others like Brienne. His willingness to talk about his incest says as much.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Thanks for your description Darth Skywalker, but the below one made me remember him.






For a potentially more detailed description, Barristan Selmy was the old man who was the main Kingsguard shown in Season 1, who was with Robert during the hunting accident and who later Joffrey ordered to have retire. In that last scene, he drew his sword, declaring he could probably still take on the rest of the Kingsguard by himself before chucking his sword at Joffrey's feet and leaving in disgust.


Yes this makes me remember him now, shame we never got to see him in action, does he come into the story again at all?

[DarthSkywalker]

how did people miss him? His final scene was prominent as hell.

[RockSP]

There are a billion characters. Not everyone is going to remember the names of each one, from season to season...especially if they don't appear for long stretches.

[Buford The Sly]

does he come into the story again at all?
Yes. As a squire to a eunich.

[Pink Ranger]

There are a billion characters. Not everyone is going to remember the names of each one, from season to season...especially if they don't appear for long stretches.

But you know, you would think an old graying British guy would stand out among the cast of this show. :oldrazz:

[ChickenScratch]

Thanks for your description Darth Skywalker, but the below one made me remember him.
Yes this makes me remember him now, shame we never got to see him in action, does he come into the story again at all?

He joins up with Dany.

[DarthSkywalker]

He joins up with Dany.

Why would you write that? Seriously? Come on. All you had to say was he reappears. That is it.

[DarkSovereignty]

I'd imagine that's why he wrapped spoiler tags around it.

[DarthSkywalker]

And when the person looks to see if he returns, everything will be spoiled.

[FCEEVIPER]

Could it be, can it be....we are actually going to get a GOT war scene ON screen??

Can't wait!

[cyborg ninja 14]

There are a billion characters. Not everyone is going to remember the names of each one, from season to season...especially if they don't appear for long stretches.

I feel that way reading the books as well, there are so many references to a million characters that seldom see time in the books it's ridiculous.

[cyborg ninja 14]

http://filmmusicreporter.com/2012/05/23/game-of-thrones-season-2-soundtrack-details/

Season ending cliffhanger confirmed, can't wait.

[Spidey-Bat]

That's gonna be ****ing amazing. So glad they're putting that at the end of this season instead of the beginning of season 3 like it was in the book. Considering ASOS had an epilogue, I think GRRM would probably make the prologue of ASOS the epilogue of ACOK if he wrote it today.

[DACrowe]

The more I think about it, the more I don't think one hour will be enough to cover everything they're leaving for episode 10:

-The burning of Winterfell.
-Robb marrying Talisa and breaking it to his mother.
-Some follow-up on Jaime and Brienne.
-Fall-out in King's Landing.
-Ser Dontos is likely going to appear to Sansa.
-Jon is going to have to fight Quorin to the death and convince the Lord of Bones to take him to Mance Rayder.
-Jaqen meeting up with Arya and giving that storyline closure.
-Three blasts and the Battle for the Fist of the First Men.
-And oh yeah, freaking House of the Undying as well as Dany's escape.

I hope they're allowed to make it a 90 minute episode or something to do all those plot threads justice for the finale.

[Oberon sexton]

http://filmmusicreporter.com/2012/05/23/game-of-thrones-season-2-soundtrack-details/

Season ending cliffhanger confirmed, can't wait.
"Valar Morguhlis" is Jaqen's theme I assume, which was fairly good.
"Warrior of Light" was creepy as all hell.
From what we've heard I think the Greyjoy theme heard during Balon's speech and briefly again when Asha (Yara) tries to convince Theon to come home is probably my personal favorite...I'm guessing that's "What is dead may never die" ?

[Spidey-Bat]

The more I think about it, the more I don't think one hour will be enough to cover everything they're leaving for episode 10:

-The burning of Winterfell.
-Robb marrying Talisa and breaking it to his mother.
-Some follow-up on Jaime and Brienne.
-Fall-out in King's Landing.
-Ser Dontos is likely going to appear to Sansa.
-Jon is going to have to fight Quorin to the death and convince the Lord of Bones to take him to Mance Rayder.
-Jaqen meeting up with Arya and giving that storyline closure.
-Three blasts and the Battle for the Fist of the First Men.
-And oh yeah, freaking House of the Undying as well as Dany's escape.

I hope they're allowed to make it a 90 minute episode or something to do all those plot threads justice for the finale.

I don't know
The two things that will take up the most time are the House of the Undying (which may be a really abridged version) and the sack of Winterfell which could still be next season. Jon has to fight Qhorin, too. The others can be really quick. Couple mins on Jaime and Brienne, Jaqen with Arya, Robb's wedding could just be some small, secret thing and we see it but Robb not mention it to Cat or his men until next season. Next week may include some wrap-up of King's Landing since the whole episode is devoted to it. Ser Dontos doesn't have to appear since they have all next season to introduce him again. I think they can fit it all in.

[rayc1971]

The more I think about it, the more I don't think one hour will be enough to cover everything they're leaving for episode 10:

-The burning of Winterfell.
-Robb marrying Talisa and breaking it to his mother.
-Some follow-up on Jaime and Brienne.
-Fall-out in King's Landing.
-Ser Dontos is likely going to appear to Sansa.
-Jon is going to have to fight Quorin to the death and convince the Lord of Bones to take him to Mance Rayder.
-Jaqen meeting up with Arya and giving that storyline closure.
-Three blasts and the Battle for the Fist of the First Men.
-And oh yeah, freaking House of the Undying as well as Dany's escape.

I hope they're allowed to make it a 90 minute episode or something to do all those plot threads justice for the finale.
we already know its a hour episode they already shot it i thought they should have did 90 minutes for the first episode

[Matt]

The more I think about it, the more I don't think one hour will be enough to cover everything they're leaving for episode 10:

-The burning of Winterfell.
-Robb marrying Talisa and breaking it to his mother.
-Some follow-up on Jaime and Brienne.
-Fall-out in King's Landing.
-Ser Dontos is likely going to appear to Sansa.
-Jon is going to have to fight Quorin to the death and convince the Lord of Bones to take him to Mance Rayder.
-Jaqen meeting up with Arya and giving that storyline closure.
-Three blasts and the Battle for the Fist of the First Men.
-And oh yeah, freaking House of the Undying as well as Dany's escape.

I hope they're allowed to make it a 90 minute episode or something to do all those plot threads justice for the finale.

Wait, you mean that they have too much to cover and not enough time to do it in? If only they wasted less time giving the audience unnecessary/previously known information in the earlier episodes and showing Joffrey torturing hookers. But no one could've seen the repetitive and slow pacing becoming a problem could they? ;)

Anyway....I like the Onion Knight, I think that he is currently my favorite character, sans Tyrion. He is one of the few likable ones left on the show.

[Spidey-Bat]

Most of it was necessary. Most of what DACrowe mentioned wouldn't even take that long anyway.

[Matt]

Only if you're using the book as a reference point. My contention is (and always has been) that they need to cut some of the less necessary "necessary," plots and characters to make the narrative tighter.

[Spidey-Bat]

Which they have done. If you've read the book, not only would you see that but you'd also know what is necessary and what isn't. No sense in arguing this with you since you're stubborn as a mule about it.

[ChickenScratch]

Why would you write that? Seriously? Come on. All you had to say was he reappears. That is it.

Why would you open the spoiler if you didnt want the answer. Don't ask, wait and see, or read the books.

[Matt]

Which they have done. If you've read the book, not only would you see that but you'd also know what is necessary and what isn't. No sense in arguing this with you since you're stubborn as a mule about it.

Not really, I'm just not obsessively snobbish about the source material. I'd rather see a well crafted, well paced story, with likable characters that fits the medium than one that goes 8 weeks with nothing happening aside from unlikable old men sitting in rooms talking that stays "loyal," to the source.

[Spidey-Bat]

It's better than The Walking Dead :o

[Infinity9999x]

Not really, I'm just not obsessively snobbish about the source material. I'd rather see a well crafted, well paced story, with likable characters that fits the medium than one that goes 8 weeks with nothing happening aside from unlikable old men sitting in rooms talking that stays "loyal," to the source.

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is with the pacing. I'm left eager to know what happens after each episode. It's easily one of the best shows on TV right now. And you would really want to cut the scene where Joffrey is torturing the girls? That was a great scene, it really showed his creepiness and how screwed up this kid is. More so then anything else he had done.

I keep seeing people on here complaining about the pacing of GOT or Walking Dead, and while I will conceade that both can be a bit slow (TWD was definitely very slow for the first half of season 2) I would still take slower paced shows with great character development over a show that moves at a fast pace and ends up destroying any semblance of character development for shock value (like what happend to Heroes.)

[Matt]

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is with the pacing. I'm left eager to know what happens after each episode. It's easily one of the best shows on TV right now. And you would really want to cut the scene where Joffrey is torturing the girls? That was a great scene, it really showed his creepiness and how screwed up this kid is. More so then anything else he had done.

I keep seeing people on here complaining about the pacing of GOT or Walking Dead, and while I will conceade that both can be a bit slow (TWD was definitely very slow for the first half of season 2) I would still take slower paced shows with great character development over a show that moves at a fast pace and ends up destroying any semblance of character development for shock value (like what happend to Heroes.)

But shows like Boardwalk Empire, Castle and White Collar show that a happy medium is possible.

[DACrowe]

Wait, you mean that they have too much to cover and not enough time to do it in? If only they wasted less time giving the audience unnecessary/previously known information in the earlier episodes and showing Joffrey torturing hookers. But no one could've seen the repetitive and slow pacing becoming a problem could they? ;)

Anyway....I like the Onion Knight, I think that he is currently my favorite character, sans Tyrion. He is one of the few likable ones left on the show.

You'll like to hear that I'd agree with your criticism for episode 8. I thought it was very weak and should have moved the story along further.

[ChickenScratch]

But shows like Boardwalk Empire, Castle and White Collar show that a happy medium is possible.

Same rules don't apply universally. They can't adapt everything by the same rules to satiate one fanboy with a dislike for detail. The story takes as long as it takes, it's not like those other shows you mentioned are books or people go in knowing the material beforehand.

[FCEEVIPER]

http://i.imgur.com/wbhh1.jpg (http://imgur.com/wbhh1)

[Infinity9999x]

But shows like Boardwalk Empire, Castle and White Collar show that a happy medium is possible.

I haven't seen Boardwalk Empire (but I want to, I've heard it's good.) I do really enjoy Castle and White Collar though. I'm about half a season behind on both and plan to catch up now that the summer's started. However, I think the main difference is that WC and Castle are both fomulaic shows. They're based on a formula that they repeat each week, and each episode has small advancements to a main over-arching plot. These shows have "endgame" plots. There is no endgame in a show like TWD. TWD and GOT focus much more of their time on character development. Heck, in TWD's case, its focus is solely on character development. Castle and White Collar do a great job of mixing in character development with their daily "con of the week" or "mystery of the week" but they have that formula to fall back on.

And don't get me wrong, I love me some good formula shows. (I was an avid House watcher for most of it's run). But TWD and GOT are very different kinds of shows. I don't expect that kind of pace with either of the shows because they aren't the same kind of show.

But I give you props for your tase in television. Caste and White Collar are two of my favorites. :up:

[DarthSkywalker]

Why would you open the spoiler if you didnt want the answer. Don't ask, wait and see, or read the books.

I have read the books. The problem I have is if someone simply wanted to know if the character reappeared, you told them much more then that.

[DarthSkywalker]

You'll like to hear that I'd agree with your criticism for episode 8. I thought it was very weak and should have moved the story along further.

This season hasn't been perfect in terms of its pacing, but unlike other shows, it has to balance like a dozen story climaxes a season.

Episode 8 could not progress the story past Blackwater. Do to the budget Mance, the Reeds, Ramsey Snow and others were not able to be cast this season. Thus you can't progress the story that much without these characters.

The more I think about it, the more I don't think one hour will be enough to cover everything they're leaving for episode 10:

-The burning of Winterfell.
-Robb marrying Talisa and breaking it to his mother.
-Some follow-up on Jaime and Brienne.
-Fall-out in King's Landing.
-Ser Dontos is likely going to appear to Sansa.
-Jon is going to have to fight Quorin to the death and convince the Lord of Bones to take him to Mance Rayder.
-Jaqen meeting up with Arya and giving that storyline closure.
-Three blasts and the Battle for the Fist of the First Men.
-And oh yeah, freaking House of the Undying as well as Dany's escape.

I hope they're allowed to make it a 90 minute episode or something to do all those plot threads justice for the finale.

The episode is 63 minutes and it should be more then enough time, especially when you consider that most of King's Landing pretty much ends this Sunday.

[mr. peasant]

Not really, I'm just not obsessively snobbish about the source material. I'd rather see a well crafted, well paced story, with likable characters that fits the medium than one that goes 8 weeks with nothing happening aside from unlikable old men sitting in rooms talking that stays "loyal," to the source.

Unfortunately, if you're looking for a well-paced story with likable characters, then A Song of Ice and Fire probably isn't a particularly good choice to work with. While it is a good work of literature, this is mainly because it is a fantastic exercise in worldbuilding. While GRRM can be applauded for being able to map out and keep track of the series' convoluted plot, it is - and never was - told in a particularly sleek or efficient way. Especially with how far apart the original and/or 'main' characters are, it's hard to imagine how they will all contribute to a single, unified plot/resolution. Rather, there are likely to be multiple unrelated story threads; i.e. the book series is multiple stories trying to be told as one.


This season hasn't been perfect in terms of its pacing, but unlike other shows, it has to balance like a dozen story climaxes a season.

Episode 8 could not progress the story past Blackwater. Do to the budget Mance, the Reeds, Ramsey Snow and others were not able to be cast this season. Thus you can't progress the story that much without these characters.

At the risk of potentially sounding sacrilegious to avid book fans, I honestly think that the show should have cut the first half of Stannis' side of the story out (e.g. have Catelyn leave for Robb's camp before Stannis arrives) and instead built him up as an unseen character until Blackwater where he makes his first appearance (either at a climactic/dramatic point or during its aftermath). For instance, have Renly's death occur offscreen with the show instead spending more time on the panicked and confused reactions of the other factions (Robb did lose a strong ally!) with them speculating on how he managed to pull it off (which was done a little in the show).

Indeed, this was pretty much that side of the story's single contribution to the season thus far. I think holding back on Stannis and Melisandre's introductions until later would have bought the show a lot more breathing room to better develop other scenes (e.g. actually show a little of Jaime's first escape instead of making it look like he got caught as soon as he killed Karstark's son) and ulimately tightened up and strengthen the show.

[DarthSkywalker]

That sounds terrible and would have forced the show to explain all these characters next season, when they have even less time to do it. Stannis and Mel are two of the most important characters in the series and their early bits set the foundation for who they are.

Also strange to have the battle of the five kings, without the kings.

Also from a budget point, they couldn't do that. What some seem to be missing is that they are trying to avoid paying and locking up actors for seasons for only a few episodes.

Think Jaqen with the hood over his face at the end of the fist season.

[Matt]

I actually don't think it is a terrible idea. It isn't like he would pop up out of no where. It would build mystery around Stannis and make him a force in the viewers mind when he finally appears rather than just some middle age guy who keeps whining about how the throne is his birthright.

[Spidey-Bat]

It's a bad idea. One of the things that made me want to pick up ACOK immediately was finding out about Stannis. He's an immensely important character, there's too much that happens in ASOS to push his introduction back into that.

[Matt]

I've found Stannis to be one of the most underwhelming aspects of the season. I expected a bad ass, stoic warrior. Instead we get a guy who is exactly what Renly described....boring as **** and impossible to like.

[Spidey-Bat]

Well, he's both. He's just like many characters, breaking the more common archetypes. Take Jaime, he is literally a knight in shining armor but he's an immense prick who is screwing his twin sister and attempts to kill a boy.

There are only 3-4 Davos chapters in ACOK and his is the only POV we get of Stannis. There's a lot more of him in ASOS. You may not like him but you will respect him for one thing he does. He's the only king who lives up to the "Protector of the Realm" title

[Matt]

Sometimes the archetypes are archetypes for a reason. Putting so much focus on sadistic and boring characters just for the sake of not being a cliche fantasy story is one of GRRM's biggest flaws as an author, IMO. He is so obsessed with being different that he will let his story suffer to be different.

[DarthSkywalker]

Stannis and Davos's end to the season would not make sense if you held off introducing them.

Hint it involves the return of Mel.

[Marvolo]

Sometimes the archetypes are archetypes for a reason. Putting so much focus on sadistic and boring characters just for the sake of not being a cliche fantasy story is one of GRRM's biggest flaws as an author, IMO. He is so obsessed with being different that he will let his story suffer to be different.

Is that a slight against the books you haven't read?

I can not wait for Blackwater! Its been so long since I read the book that I've forgotten the finer details so I may get some surprises.:awesome:

[mr. peasant]

That sounds terrible and would have forced the show to explain all these characters next season, when they have even less time to do it. Stannis and Mel are two of the most important characters in the series and their early bits set the foundation for who they are.

Also strange to have the battle of the five kings, without the kings.

From what I hear, the creators seem to think that the third book will be adapted into two seasons; in which case, there's plenty of time to introduce them then. In the mean time, the show can simply develop them as unseen characters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unseen_character).

As for it being strange to have the War of the Five Kings without the kings, I seem to recall Robb not really featuring all that much in book 2.

Also from a budget point, they couldn't do that. What some seem to be missing is that they are trying to avoid paying and locking up actors for seasons for only a few episodes.

Think Jaqen with the hood over his face at the end of the fist season.

Not quite the same since Jaqen is a minor character who's only relevant this book/season. By your own admission, Stannis and Melisandre are two of the most important characters in the series; thereby making it 'worth' locking them down. In fact, I don't see how what I'm suggesting makes the costs on the cast any more expensive than what they've currently got. In fact, it's potentially cheaper since they wouldn't have needed to cast or feature Davos until next season.


Well, he's both. He's just like many characters, breaking the more common archetypes. Take Jaime, he is literally a knight in shining armor but he's an immense prick who is screwing his twin sister and attempts to kill a boy.

Basically, he's a Knight in Sour Armour (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightInSourArmor).


Stannis and Davos's end to the season would not make sense if you held off introducing them.

Hint it involves the return of Mel.

Can't remember anything specific about that blacked out word that happens in the next book would be difficult to do by introducing Stannis toward the end of season 2.


And honestly, I'm shocked by how casual, often and explicit some of the book fans are when discussing spoilers in this thread. I can only imagine a good number of people are turned off by this thread or are deliberately avoiding it so as not to risk seeing spoilers.

[Matt]

Is that a slight against the books you haven't read?

I can not wait for Blackwater! Its been so long since I read the book that I've forgotten the finer details so I may get some surprises.:awesome:

I've read AGOT and half of ACOK before being turned off by GRRM's cheap writing style (yep, I said it) and quitting.

[Spidey-Bat]

That's like leaving 20 min into The Avengers because there hasn't been any good action yet. You didn't read some of the most exciting chapters of the series in ACOK and the best book in ASOS. But I wouldn't expect someone who likes The Walking Dead to have good taste anyway :o

[chaseter]

Oh snizzle.

[Matt]

That's like leaving 20 min into The Avengers because there hasn't been any good action yet. You didn't read some of the most exciting chapters of the series in ACOK and the best book in ASOS. But I wouldn't expect someone who likes The Walking Dead to have good taste anyway :o

Actually, I condemn The Walking Dead more than just about anyone else on the board.

Regarding leaving because there hasn't been action, it has nothing to do with that. Martin's writing is cheap and soap opera-esque. It creates artificial drama with easily resolvable (and often repetitive) cliff hangers at the end of chapters, then makes the reader wait 70 pages to resolve them. It isn't good writing, IMO. Factor in that it is heavily convoluted and in desperate need of streamlining and I just had no tolerance for it.

[Spidey-Bat]

As a reader, I'm pretty terrible. It takes me months to read a book that's even 300 pages yet I was able to read the first 3 books in 6 weeks. Some chapters go on and the ones early on are a little tough to figure out what exactly is going on but you get it later. The cliffhangers at the end are a tease, but I have no problem with them. You may finish a chapter with a cliffhanger but there's another one that will answer your questions from earlier in the book. I can get through about 40-60 pages a night which is probably more than what most people's schedules allow.

[Buford The Sly]

Anyone see the confirmation of what this season will end on? Three Blasts!

[mr. peasant]

That's like leaving 20 min into The Avengers because there hasn't been any good action yet. You didn't read some of the most exciting chapters of the series in ACOK and the best book in ASOS. But I wouldn't expect someone who likes The Walking Dead to have good taste anyway :o

Personal attacks... really? Thought we were more mature than that. Then, I remembered that I was on the internet.

Fact is, the main purpose of literature such as novels, TV shows and movies is to provoke thought or to entertain, first and foremost. A Song of Ice and Fire doesn't really do the former. And if you're not getting the latter after the entirety of the first book itself, he or she should very well drop it. Heck, I'd go so far as the first three chapters or fifty pages. Same if you didn't enjoy the first 20 minutes of the Avengers. Anyone who sticks it out despite not liking something is simply a masochist.

[Matt]

As a reader, I'm pretty terrible. It takes me months to read a book that's even 300 pages yet I was able to read the first 3 books in 6 weeks. Some chapters go on and the ones early on are a little tough to figure out what exactly is going on but you get it later. The cliffhangers at the end are a tease, but I have no problem with them. You may finish a chapter with a cliffhanger but there's another one that will answer your questions from earlier in the book. I can get through about 40-60 pages a night which is probably more than what most people's schedules allow.

Whatever floats your boat.

[PWN3R]

Actually, I condemn The Walking Dead more than just about anyone else on the board.

Regarding leaving because there hasn't been action, it has nothing to do with that. Martin's writing is cheap and soap opera-esque. It creates artificial drama with easily resolvable (and often repetitive) cliff hangers at the end of chapters, then makes the reader wait 70 pages to resolve them. It isn't good writing, IMO. Factor in that it is heavily convoluted and in desperate need of streamlining and I just had no tolerance for it.

Can you offer any examples about Martin's style being "heavily convoluted"?

I began reading this series due to the show, and I just finished ACoK. I almost didn't bother because I don't read this genre, and my biggest concern was it being convoluted. However, Martin's writing is clear and interesting. And he loves boiled leather.

You have to credit the man for juggling so many characters and not having cluster**** after cluster****. It's addictive reading from a character standpoint.

I do agree about some chapters just ending on similar notes as before. But he is building a universe, so there's that.

[Spidey-Bat]

Personal attacks... really? Thought we were more mature than that. Then, I remembered that I was on the internet.
It was a joke, that's why I used a :o

Fact is, the main purpose of literature such as novels, TV shows and movies is to provoke thought or to entertain, first and foremost. A Song of Ice and Fire doesn't really do the former. And if you're not getting the latter after the entirety of the first book itself, he or she should very well drop it. Heck, I'd go so far as the first three chapters or fifty pages. Same if you didn't enjoy the first 20 minutes of the Avengers. Anyone who sticks it out despite not liking something is simply a masochist.

Ok, fine. But then why continue watching the show if you complain about it every week for being too similar to the books? Just seems like an immense waste of time. If you're going to stick through the show, at least finish up to ASOS.

[Matt]

Can you offer any examples about Martin's style being "heavily convoluted"?

I began reading this series due to the show, and I just finished ACoK. I almost didn't bother because I don't read this genre, and my biggest concern was it being convoluted. However, Martin's writing is clear and interesting. And he loves boiled leather.

You have to credit the man for juggling so many characters and not having cluster**** after cluster****. It's addictive reading from a character standpoint.

I do agree about some chapters just ending on similar notes as before. But he is building a universe, so there's that.

There are so many characters and ongoing storylines that I almost need a flow chart to keep track of it all. That is what I mean by convoluted. Yes, I guess that they all tie together somehow (though based on what I hear, it has yet to happen). But it has reached the point where I feel like I am reading several short stories rather than one streamlined one.

J.K. Rowling built a world with Harry Potter. Tolkein built a world with The Hobbit and LOTR. But they never sacrificed the story at hand to build a world. Instead they tied it all together in a way that advances the plot of the story being told. I never get this vibe from GRRM's writing. Sometimes it even feels like GRRM realizes he has done this, gotten off track and made unimportant characters/plots in the name of padding the mythology...so he responds by just killing them off for the hell of it. :funny:

It was a joke, that's why I used a :o


You make condescending comments and hide behind the excuse of a 'joke with a smiley face,' a lot. :o

[DACrowe]

I've found Stannis to be one of the most underwhelming aspects of the season. I expected a bad ass, stoic warrior. Instead we get a guy who is exactly what Renly described....boring as **** and impossible to like.

He's exactly what Renly described. However, there should be some sense of honor and decency about him. A sense of tarnished nobility. Either the writers or actor have not brought that out. When I read the book, I pictured a young Patrick Stewart performing his version of MacBeth.

He's the only character--well him and Asha/Yara--whose disappointed me this season. I think if they had done a better job of introducing him, instead of waiting until episode 8 to finally give him some development, audiences may have connected to the character better for the show.

[DACrowe]

Is that a slight against the books you haven't read?

I can not wait for Blackwater! Its been so long since I read the book that I've forgotten the finer details so I may get some surprises.:awesome:

I do enjoy how two posters who haven't read the books are not just going after the show, but dissecting what they view as the numerous problems in GRRM's writing and storytelling. :awesome:

Hey, I haven't read the Harry Potter books, but based off the movies I think Rowling is too exposition heavy and has too many side-characters she leaves undeveloped and kills off unsatisfyingly. All in all she should have rewritten....

It just doesn't work like that, in my opinion.