Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

[Lorus]

Obviously a rotating roster has been one of the trademark features of the Avengers in the comics, as well as any other team. I'm told that Kevin Feige has already said that fans should expect a rotating roster of sorts but I thought I'd sound off about my opinions on the issue.

As much as I appreciate that people want to see their favourite Avengers on the screen and there is the precedent to have characters come and go; I would prefer that the core team remain the same going into the next film. As much as the Avengers sequel is going to be a continuation of whatever happens in other films such as Iron Man 3, Thor 2 etc, it's also got to be recognisably a follow up to The Avengers and as such it should build on the dynamics already established by that film.

I think it would be a mistake to shake up the roster between films and really think that the Avengers should be seen as an origin film in its own right. The sequels can then expand on everything already present, without retreading 'origin territory' by introducing new members and ditching old ones.

What does everyone else think? I accept that there will probably at least one additional member to the roster although I'd prefer there to be none. Are many people in favour of big shake ups?

[Chewy]

Keep the team the same but add a new character that adds a new dynamic to the team.

Think Lando in ESB, Nightcrawler in X2, etc

[marcvader]

If you said screw cannon then I'd love to add Vision.

[cherokeesam]

Keep the team the same but add a new character that adds a new dynamic to the team.

Think Lando in ESB, Nightcrawler in X2, etc

More to the point: ESB successfully added Lando AND Yoda as two major heroes (as well as two prominent new villains, The Emperor and Boba Fett), and X2 added *three* new heroes (Nightcrawler, Iceman and Pyro).

If those sagas successfully added 2-3 major characters to the existing core group, it's safe to say that Avengers can do the same without alienating audiences.

[Chewy]

Well Yoda didn't really join the group, he just mentored the lead for a bit. And neither the Emperor or Fett was prominent. Fett just looked cool for a couple scenes and I think had two or three lines of dialogue, while the Emperor was just in one scene. He had about as much of a "presence" as he did in Star Wars.

And I hate to use the whole X-Men ensemble as an example, as some of those characters really got screen time at the expense of Cyclops.

But yes, it's possible to add a few more supporting characters :oldrazz:

[R_Hythlodeus]

I would think Avengers 2 is too early to change the roaster, maybe add a few characters instead *cough* the Pyms *cough*... You can rotate the roaster as much as you want in the next sequels though

[marcvader]

What are you rotating in the roaster?

[Chewy]

If you said screw cannon then I'd love to add Vision.
To be honest if Wright is sticking with the "Pyms in the 60s" thing, it could work

Have it be a robot he's been perfecting most of his life, and he tries to turn it into his surrogate for himself on the big shiny superhero team, since he's so old

Maybe mocapped/voiced by whoever plays Pym in Ant-Man. With the voice modified to be robotic

[Lord]

Hulk can leave the team, maybe Hawkeye and Black Widow can leave the team too.
Add Ant-Man, Falcon and maybe War Machine and Black Panther

[TacomaTruck90]

What is there to rotate out for two? It's has to be assumed everyone who is getting a sequel is going to be in the avengers I don't think a rotating roster makes sense until there are way more characters and if they are to switch swop people take out widow and hawkeye most logical... No Thor Cap or Ironman Hulk makes no sense for me in the second film if it ain't broke don't fix it

[Blackman]

I dont think Iron Man, Cap, Thor, and Hulk should not be in an Avengers film.

BW, Hawkeye, Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, and BP I can do without

[I'm Venom]

My dream Avengers team is Hulk, Iron Man, Spider-Man, & Thor.

[TheSpartanX54]

Hulk can leave the team, maybe Hawkeye and Black Widow can leave the team too.


Considering that Hulk stole the show in [I]The Avengers[I/], I honestly dont see that happening. Hawkeye and Black Widow could leave too. But with Scarlett getting paid tons for Avengers 2, I think its obvious that she's sticking around. I would still want Hawkeye around just because I think he needs more development.

Here's my dream team for Avengers 2:

Captain America-Iron Man-Thor-Hulk-Black Widow-Ms. Marvel/Hawkeye-Ant-Man

Hawkeye sticks around if Thanos isnt the villian for Avengers 2. If he is I would replace him with Ms. Marvel (Plus the Team really needs another female).

[Chewy]

None of them should or will leave the team. You don't want an X-Men 3 where Nightcrawler is never mentioned and Cyclops is shat on in the opening moments.

The problem with Black Panther or Ms Marvel or Dr Strange showing up is they really do need their respective origin movie(s) first to be done justice. And it doesn't look like Marvel will be working on any of them before Avengers 2.

[Blackman]

None of them should or will leave the team. You don't want an X-Men 3 where Nightcrawler is never mentioned and Cyclops is shat on in the opening moments.

The problem with Black Panther or Ms Marvel or Dr Strange showing up is they really do need their respective origin movie(s) first to be done justice. And it doesn't look like Marvel will be working on any of them before Avengers 2.

This.

[spideymouse]

None of them should or will leave the team. You don't want an X-Men 3 where Nightcrawler is never mentioned and Cyclops is shat on in the opening moments.

The problem with Black Panther or Ms Marvel or Dr Strange showing up is they really do need their respective origin movie(s) first to be done justice. And it doesn't look like Marvel will be working on any of them before Avengers 2.
I think that's why making the Ant-Man movie before Avengers 2 (I hope the LR rumor is true) is so important--it's the best chance MS has at properly introducing one or two worthy additions to the team without improperly shoehorning people into the solo sequels (like Dr. Strange in Thor 2 or Black Panther in Cap 2).

[TheHeatKitchen]

This isn't a comic book or graphic novel series. it's a film series. Those are two completely different things. You have to keep the core group together. You can add a couple in, but you can't take away from the originals or their impact to the series.

Your Core Group:
Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Hulk

Secondary SHIELD Agents:
Hawkeye
Black Widow
Falcon (most likely because of CA:TWS)

Tertiary Support Characters as "Part of the Team":
Hank Pym (Primarily as a SHIELD scientist/researcher, NOT always as Ant Man/Giant Man/Yellow Jacket)
Janet Pym (Primarily as a SHIELD scientist/researcher, NOT always as Wasp)
Black Panther (Only in a story line that involves Wakanda, NOT a "member" of the team)

[pr0xyt0xin]

Where does Doc Strange fit into this established portrait you've painted?

[TheHeatKitchen]

Nowhere.

[pr0xyt0xin]

That's good. I didn't want to take it seriously anyway. :)

[marcvader]

I wouldn't want Strange to be more than a cameo in an Avengers flick. MS needs to make movies unrelated to Avengers at some point, its not the Avengers Cinematic Universe.

[pr0xyt0xin]

but if I understand you correctly, you do want a Doctor Strange film that fits within the MCU continuity? Just not as an Avenger? I guess I could live with that.

[TheHeatKitchen]

I like Dr. Strange, but when you already have the deep personalities of Stark, Rodgers, Thor and Banner, and you talk about throwing in the Pyms, Thanos, possibly Ultron, and maybe even Black Panther, you dont need to add the complexity of Dr. Strange too. Just my opinion.

[pr0xyt0xin]

Blehh... Doctor Strange over Black Panther any day. Over any mention of Ultron too.

Strange isn't around for his complexity. He's there because he is mysterious. More powerful than most everyone you just listed. If he exists in this universe, they can't afford to challenge these threats without him.

[Chewy]

Yet the Avengers managed to challenge these threats without him for 50 years

[marcvader]

But he's not really an Avenger anyways. He's been an honorary member and has always allied himself with them but he's got a rich world to explore and prefer he battles his own demons. Pun intended.

[pr0xyt0xin]

Yet the Avengers managed to challenge these threats without him for 50 years

No need to get sassy. Do you not agree that even what you just said seems a bit off? If Doc is around (in the Marvel Universe) and willing to fight evil, why did they never give him a ring? I know I'd feel a lot safer if he had my back.

[pr0xyt0xin]

and if we are talking time frames here, no mention of Thanos was made until 10 years after the formation of the og Avengers. Quite a bit later do they fight him as a team.

So should we logically assume that the first Avengers film is the essence of the first 10 years of Avengers comics? Fair assessment. Then by the time we see Strange join up it'll likely be 30-50 years in. Sound good?

[I'm Venom]

Considering that Hulk stole the show in The Avengers, I honestly don't see that happening. Hawkeye and Black Widow could leave too. But with Scarlett getting paid tons for Avengers 2, I think it's obvious that she's sticking around. I would still want Hawkeye around just because I think he needs more development.

The other thing you could do is just make a Black Widow and Hawkeye film and make it a spy movie. SHIELD would have to to be a factor in the film though. They'd need some type of handler for gadgets, and it can't be the other Avengers because they'd steal the show.

[cherokeesam]

No need to get sassy. Do you not agree that even what you just said seems a bit off? If Doc is around (in the Marvel Universe) and willing to fight evil, why did they never give him a ring? I know I'd feel a lot safer if he had my back.

Doc Strange never became an official Avenger until the Bendis era mainly because he was linked to a different team: i.e., The Defenders. Hulk, Dr. Strange, Namor and Silver Surfer teamed up there, a "non-team" of loners who basically hated each other, and that's what kept them from joining the "all-stars" in Avengers or X-Men.

[The Spidey-Man]

Captain America, IronMan, Thor, AntMan, Wasp, Hawkeye, Black Phanter/Ms.Marvel

[I'm Venom]

Returning: Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man, Thor
Leaving: Black Widow, Hawkeye
Entering: Spider-Man

They're going to stick with characters that are known for the movies and throw a lot of cannon out the window because it just gets too out there. They'll stick with the formula that proved successful with The Avengers.

I'd also love to see a movie focusing on Black Widow and Hawkeye in the style of a thriller. It has a lot of potential and would be cool to see. Even if they don't appear in Avengers 2, we need to see them again sometime.

[marvelrobbins]

We don't know If Iron Man will be back.Robert downey JR's contract Is up after Iron Man 3.So Disney will have to pay up for him to return.It's unclear If Jeremy Renner has contract for more films.I never heard any talk of that.

Capt,Thor,Banner/Hulk,and Black widow should all return.With The Falcon being Introduced In Captain America:The winter Soldier he could he added to Lineup.

The only way for spider-Man to appear if for DIsney and sony to reach deal.

Nick fury and Maria Hill should appear as Shield's pesence In film.

I personally would give Downey the money to return,drop Hawkeye,and only new avenger possibly appear Is Ant-Man Is his film comes out before The Avengers 2.

[marcvader]

Downey will return for the sequel to the top grossing cbm of all time. MS didn't just get stupid.

[marvelrobbins]

Disney will have to turn over 20-25 Million Dollors to Downey.Joss Whedon will probally push for Downey to return.But,It's like Joss doing the Avengers 2 I will feel better when
It Is announced.

[Chewy]

Downey made 50 million dollars off Avengers

[marvelrobbins]

Well they will have to pay him 50 Million+ for sequel.Seriously he could ask for small fortune to return.

[terry78]

Probably get someone like Mockingbird or whatever on there.

[Donnie Darko]

I wouldn't want Strange to be more than a cameo in an Avengers flick. MS needs to make movies unrelated to Avengers at some point, its not the Avengers Cinematic Universe.

This.

Not every Marvel movie needs to feed into Avengers. I would like Marvel to get Daredevil back and have him exist in their world, but I don't want him as an Avenger. Same with Dr Strange.

I would, however, like to see a Luke Cage film where his is on his own, and maybe joins the Avengers later on. He is the one Bendis Avenger that I think would work well getting thrown in with the movie team.

[spideymouse]

This.

Not every Marvel movie needs to feed into Avengers. I would like Marvel to get Daredevil back and have him exist in their world, but I don't want him as an Avenger. Same with Dr Strange.Agreed. But I do want all MCU films to feed into an Infinity Gauntlet movie. The story is too far-reaching and epic to be limited to an Avengers movie starring six heroes. It's crazy ambitious, but I believe they can pull it off. Just make it 3+ hours long. =D

I would, however, like to see a Luke Cage film where his is on his own, and maybe joins the Avengers later on. He is the one Bendis Avenger that I think would work well getting thrown in with the movie team.Well, I'd want to see a Luke Cage story either as a solo movie leading up to or within a Heroes for Hire movie.

[marcvader]

I would love the whole Marvel U in a giant crossover extravaganza whether it be Infinity Gauntlet, Galactus, or Secret Wars.

[spideymouse]

I would love the whole Marvel U in a giant crossover extravaganza whether it be Infinity Gauntlet, Galactus, or Secret Wars.Juuuust as long as the giant crossover extravanganza isn't Civil War. Gotta make sure you put up the qualifiers, friend. =D

[Chewy]

I actually think a giant crossover extravaganza is a terrible idea, and would inevitably be awful. Plus all of the actors would hate making it

:ducks:

[marcvader]

Damn it, I missed. Good reflexes there Chewy.

[spideymouse]

I actually think a giant crossover extravaganza is a terrible idea, and would inevitably be awful. Plus all of the actors would hate making it

:ducks:Hmm, I understand the sentiment, but I still disagree. Would you make it a two hour, smaller scoped Thanos/Infinity Gauntlet-centric movie, then?

[Chewy]

Yeah, the Avengers plus a handful of Guardians versus Thanos. And even that is stretching it a tad, but could work

Not smaller scoped, though. I don't necessarily think more characters = bigger scope, anyway

[Joeyjojo72]

If (a big if) the various tv and film projects are successful, its sort of inevitable that there will be a big cross-over project. But that's pretty far down the road, post-TA3.

[spideymouse]

Yeah, the Avengers plus a handful of Guardians versus Thanos. And even that is stretching it a tad, but could work

Not smaller scoped, though. I don't necessarily think more characters = bigger scope, anywayI guess giant crossover extravaganza doesn't necessarily mean giving like 50 different heroes 10 minutes of screen time--but I do think you need to show every aspect of the MCU up to that point being affected by Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet. That means showing characters/settings outside of the Avengers and GOTG, too.

[marcvader]

Agree^^^

[Chewy]

I guess giant crossover extravaganza doesn't necessarily mean giving like 50 different heroes 10 minutes of screen time--but I do think you need to show every aspect of the MCU up to that point being affected by Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet. That means showing characters/settings outside of the Avengers and GOTG, too.
I'd be cool with cameos from all the characters. Like a scene with Black Panther walking out of his throne room in Wakanda and looking up at the sun being blotted out, just as an example. I think that's the best way to make the film feel huge and all-encompassing without bloat.

But you gotta pick, say, 10 heroes and stick with them as the "heroes" of the piece.

[AvengeME]

Well they will have to pay him 50 Million+ for sequel.Seriously he could ask for small fortune to return.

Downey should ask for nothing less than 100 million for Avengers 2-3. Maybe 150 since these are sequels and the second (renegotiated) contract typically means a bump in pay. Anything less would be unacceptable if I represented him.

[marcvader]

Wasn't his salary determined by the BO take, like a percentage getting it to $50 mil?

[Chewy]

Downey should ask for nothing less than 100 million for Avengers 2-3. Maybe 150 since these are sequels and the second (renegotiated) contract typically means a bump in pay. Anything less would be unacceptable if I represented him.
http://i.imgur.com/w04Uc.gif

I guess there's a reason you're not a Hollywood agent :oldrazz:

[gzilla46]

I'd add Spiderman, Wolverine, War Machine, and Batman (I know, he's DC, but still, that would be kind of cool. It'd show DC and Marvel putting aside their differences).

[spideymouse]

I'd add Spiderman, Wolverine, War Machine, and Batman (I know, he's DC, but still, that would be kind of cool. It'd show DC and Marvel putting aside their differences).Haha, mos def. Get Sherlock Holmes in there too. That would earn RDJ that 100 million. And Captain James T. Kirk.

[BatsDC]

The amount Avengers made, Dinsey should be willing to dish out more cash to sign up Downey for a new contract. Depending on how Iron Man 3's recieved, have it span 3 films - A2, IM4 and A3, so his contract ends the same time Chris H and Chris E's contracts are up.

[AvengeME]

Wasn't his salary determined by the BO take, like a percentage getting it to $50 mil?

Correct... a box office commission that raises the salary up to 100-150 million or paid outright of 100 million regardless of performance. For two sequels of a franchise of this caliber that seems fair to me.

[marcvader]

I say just up the base salary and continue the percentage bonus. Nothing should be guaranteed, that's just good business.

[AvengeME]

I say just up the base salary and continue the percentage bonus. Nothing should be guaranteed, that's just good business.

Well you are right about a pay raise. Avengers over performed and his salary should be adjusted as such. That means more upfront and certainly equal if not greater percentage commission. Factoring those two, I don't see how his final salary could be less than 100 million total. That would be the minimum wage if anything.

[steintym]

That is some serious **** you money. I think I could probably manage to make ends meet with that kind of coin.

[cherokeesam]

If (a big if) the various tv and film projects are successful, its sort of inevitable that there will be a big cross-over project. But that's pretty far down the road, post-TA3.

Why?
When you're in movies and television, you learn to strike when the iron is hot. Something that's a hot property now is *not* guaranteed to still be hot five years from now, or even two or three. In fact, it's highly likely that your hot property will be yesterday's news within a year or so.

Besides, if the MCU expands into television, as seems to be the case, I say why not do an actual crossover in the vein of the comic books? If it's a Thanos story arc, for instance, you could have episodes of the Hulk TV show that feature bits of that, and episodes of the Joss Whedon-produced TV show that do the same, as well as referential cameos in various solo MCU films, culminating in a TA2 that answers lots of mysteries that were teased in each of the previously mentioned.

Not, mind you, to the point that general audiences would need to keep up with ALL of that; just items that us ravenous diehard fanboys would know about or care about.

[catintheengine]

I wouldn't want Strange to be more than a cameo in an Avengers flick. MS needs to make movies unrelated to Avengers at some point, its not the Avengers Cinematic Universe.

I like Dr. Strange, but when you already have the deep personalities of Stark, Rodgers, Thor and Banner, and you talk about throwing in the Pyms, Thanos, possibly Ultron, and maybe even Black Panther, you dont need to add the complexity of Dr. Strange too. Just my opinion.

I think you guys really hit the nail on the head. In a way, The Avengers served as a double-edged sword. Yes, we got a fantastic movie out of the deal, but in a way fans now expect all their favorite characters to be in the next Avengers picture.

It's not only unrealistic, but it would be detrimental to the film as a whole to cram that many characters into one movie.

Dr. Strange IS a complex character that certainly deserves his own movie. I've said it before: I really think GotG is going to be Marvel's way of testing the waters on a non-Avengers flick. They may have a connection through Thanos, but I wouldn't want both teams appearing in the same movie. It's just too much and no character would be done justice in a movie like that unless the running time was somewhere around five to seven hours.

I'd much rather have a fantastic set of movies than have a sub-par movie that manages to get all my favorite characters in. If you want a bunch of half-developed characters running around and blowing stuff up go rent G.I. Joe.

Yes, the MCU should be interconnected, but that doesn't/shouldn't mean that all those characters should be in the same battle or even the same movie.

To give an example from a completely different genre and medium: In the early 90's there were three sit-coms on NBC that took place in the same universe: Mad About You, Seinfeld, and Friends. They established this by interconnecting Friends and Mad About You through a minor character who happened to appear in both shows. They connected Seinfeld and Mad About You through having a main character from one meet a main character from the other in one episode. That was it.

There's really no reason for Dr. Strange to be in The Avengers at all beyond, maybe, a mention or a cameo. Save that spot on the roster for characters that were integral to The Avengers and vice versa, i.e. Ant-Man and Wasp.

[Chewy]

Thankfully Marvel gets that, and they're willing to keep certain corners separate. Keep War Machine, Winter Soldier, most of the Guardians, Thor's merry friends, and eventually people like Dr Strange out of it. It helps make the universe feel bigger, anyway.

I'm fine with people like Pym, Panther, or Carol being added to the roster. And I definitely want Warlock in whichever Avengers movie features Thanos. But start stuffing everyone in there and they're not really "Avengers" movies anymore

[TheHeatKitchen]

Thankfully Marvel gets that, and they're willing to keep certain corners separate. Keep War Machine, Winter Soldier, most of the Guardians, Thor's merry friends, and eventually people like Dr Strange out of it. It helps make the universe feel bigger, anyway.

I'm fine with people like Pym, Panther, or Carol being added to the roster. And I definitely want Warlock in whichever Avengers movie features Thanos. But start stuffing everyone in there and they're not really "Avengers" movies anymore

That was exactly my thought. Just because the Avengers team has had almost EVERYONE as a member at some point doesn't mean you need to make the universe so convoluted by adding them all. Keep it a small, personal team that the general audience can relate to throughout the series.

[Silver Surfer]

Add another female, Ms Marvel, Wanda or Spider-Woman.

[BigThor]

I think you guys really hit the nail on the head. In a way, The Avengers served as a double-edged sword. Yes, we got a fantastic movie out of the deal, but in a way fans now expect all their favorite characters to be in the next Avengers picture.

It's not only unrealistic, but it would be detrimental to the film as a whole to cram that many characters into one movie.

Dr. Strange IS a complex character that certainly deserves his own movie. I've said it before: I really think GotG is going to be Marvel's way of testing the waters on a non-Avengers flick. They may have a connection through Thanos, but I wouldn't want both teams appearing in the same movie. It's just too much and no character would be done justice in a movie like that unless the running time was somewhere around five to seven hours.

I'd much rather have a fantastic set of movies than have a sub-par movie that manages to get all my favorite characters in. If you want a bunch of half-developed characters running around and blowing stuff up go rent G.I. Joe.

Yes, the MCU should be interconnected, but that doesn't/shouldn't mean that all those characters should be in the same battle or even the same movie.

To give an example from a completely different genre and medium: In the early 90's there were three sit-coms on NBC that took place in the same universe: Mad About You, Seinfeld, and Friends. They established this by interconnecting Friends and Mad About You through a minor character who happened to appear in both shows. They connected Seinfeld and Mad About You through having a main character from one meet a main character from the other in one episode. That was it.

There's really no reason for Dr. Strange to be in The Avengers at all beyond, maybe, a mention or a cameo. Save that spot on the roster for characters that were integral to The Avengers and vice versa, i.e. Ant-Man and Wasp.

Thankfully Marvel gets that, and they're willing to keep certain corners separate. Keep War Machine, Winter Soldier, most of the Guardians, Thor's merry friends, and eventually people like Dr Strange out of it. It helps make the universe feel bigger, anyway.

I'm fine with people like Pym, Panther, or Carol being added to the roster. And I definitely want Warlock in whichever Avengers movie features Thanos. But start stuffing everyone in there and they're not really "Avengers" movies anymore

Both of you hit it right on the money, I agree with your points 100%.

[cherokeesam]

I think you guys really hit the nail on the head. In a way, The Avengers served as a double-edged sword. Yes, we got a fantastic movie out of the deal, but in a way fans now expect all their favorite characters to be in the next Avengers picture.

It's not only unrealistic, but it would be detrimental to the film as a whole to cram that many characters into one movie.

Dr. Strange IS a complex character that certainly deserves his own movie. I've said it before: I really think GotG is going to be Marvel's way of testing the waters on a non-Avengers flick. They may have a connection through Thanos, but I wouldn't want both teams appearing in the same movie. It's just too much and no character would be done justice in a movie like that unless the running time was somewhere around five to seven hours.

I'd much rather have a fantastic set of movies than have a sub-par movie that manages to get all my favorite characters in. If you want a bunch of half-developed characters running around and blowing stuff up go rent G.I. Joe.

Yes, the MCU should be interconnected, but that doesn't/shouldn't mean that all those characters should be in the same battle or even the same movie.

To give an example from a completely different genre and medium: In the early 90's there were three sit-coms on NBC that took place in the same universe: Mad About You, Seinfeld, and Friends. They established this by interconnecting Friends and Mad About You through a minor character who happened to appear in both shows. They connected Seinfeld and Mad About You through having a main character from one meet a main character from the other in one episode. That was it.

There's really no reason for Dr. Strange to be in The Avengers at all beyond, maybe, a mention or a cameo. Save that spot on the roster for characters that were integral to The Avengers and vice versa, i.e. Ant-Man and Wasp.

And yet there's plenty of examples from TV of hit shows spawning off entire subcultures successfully....All in the Family spinning off The Jeffersons, Good Times and Maude; The Mary Tyler Moore Show spinning off Rhoda, Phyllis, Lou Grant; CSI and Law and Order and their offspring; Dynasty spawning The Colbys, Dallas spawning Knots Landing, 90210 spawning Melrose; Happy Days spawning Laverne & Shirley, Mork & Mindy, Joanie Loves Chachi; Andy Griffith and Mayberry RFD and Gomer Pyle;
of course, TONS of cartoons have spun off their own shared universes; and then there's the most obvious example of a successful shared universe in Star Trek, particularly in the 80s and 90s.

That's one reason why I continue to say that Marvel *really* needs to branch out to television (and they are, with Joss, thank god), while maintaining a continuity between the films and the TV shows that emerge. That way, characters (especially those with complicated backstories) can develop properly over the course of multiple episodes or even whole seasons on television, and then make the transition to appearances in the Marvel movies, in much the same way that Trek characters have moved from small screen to large.

This really can, and *should*, feel like a vast shared universe like that of Star Trek and Star Wars. It's always been that in the comics, of course, but Marvel is only just now realizing that potential for sharing its world(s) in the visual medium of film and television.

[I'm Venom]

I'd add Spiderman, Wolverine, War Machine, and Batman (I know, he's DC, but still, that would be kind of cool. It'd show DC and Marvel putting aside their differences).

Spider-Man and The Avengers both have different owners, so they won't combine them for some time, if ever.

[Jake Cassidy]

Good. Spider-Man is much better on his own.

[BigThor]

Good. Spider-Man is much better on his own.

Agreed :up:

Good grief, why can't more people understand this?

[cherokeesam]

Good. Spider-Man is much better on his own.


So is Wolverine. So is Hulk. So is Punisher.

People need to understand that some of these heroes do *not* play well with others, and don't fit in with teams like Avengers or X-Men at all.

[marcvader]

Yeah, it's mostly the kiddies that have gotten in to comics during the Bendis era.

[BigThor]

Yeah, it's mostly the kiddies that have gotten in to comics during the Bendis era.

Trueeeee :word:

[catintheengine]

I would argue that Hulk works pretty well in Avengers, but I agree that there are certainly some characters who are better off on their own.

cherokeesam, I actually agree - I just don't know that Doctor Strange needs to be a major part of the Avengers franchise.

Come to think of it, considering we now know that Whedon is helping to develop a TV series based on a Marvel property, I think Doctor Strange is a prime candidate. Shows like Supernatural and Grimm have proven extremely popular in recent years and Strange certainly would lend himself well to that sort of format with just a bit of tweaking.

Heroes for Hire would make another interesting television show.

[Baneis8feettall]

Hulk stole the show in Avengers. He fits well enough. Spiderman & Wolverine would do but different companies.

More Maria Hill would be fine :woot:

[MovieMaster]

If you want to keep the number of heroes in an Infinity Gauntlet movie down, or explain the absence of Spider-Man, FF etc, say that they disappeared when Thanos wipes out half the ****ing universe. The latter part is for what you tell your friends when they bug you about it.

[cherokeesam]

If you want to keep the number of heroes in an Infinity Gauntlet movie down, or explain the absence of Spider-Man, FF etc, say that they disappeared when Thanos wipes out half the ****ing universe. The latter part is for what you tell your friends when they bug you about it.

Comic-Book Guy as devil's advocate: Yeah, but how come Thanos didn't just wipe out ALL of Earth, huh? How did he just pick and choose which heroes he wanted to kill, and leave the rest alone? :oldrazz:

[MovieMaster]

Subconsciously, Thanos wants a challenge. That was displayed in Infinity Gauntlet when he loses the Gauntlet because he left his body, leaving it for the taking. Thanos wants these heroes to put up a fight, and then realise that they really can do nothing to stop him.

[Joeyjojo72]

"Subconscious" motivations dont really work cinematically. No "thought bubbles".

[MovieMaster]

Thanos himself doesn't realise he's done it. Adam Warlock tells him.

[the great thor]

i just hope they dont bring in too many team members, i think no more than two should be enough. to many can take away from the story which should be what drives the movie.

[BigThor]

i just hope they dont bring in too many team members, i think no more than two should be enough. to many can take away from the story which should be what drives the movie.

Right on, I agree 100% :up:

[Superhero 101]

Well maybe they can add daredevil

[cherokeesam]

Well maybe they can add daredevil

Not until he gets a proper MCU reboot to introduce him to his new home. Preferably on TV, rather than in the movies.

TA2 should add Ant-Man and Wasp, for sure. Ideally, it should be Hank Pym in his GIANT-Man guise, though, and Wasp should handle the miniature action/missions.

Then, there should be *at least* cameos from Falcon and War Machine. If Scott Lang is playing Ant-Man, as seems to be the case, he can have a cameo, too. Even with ALL those put together, you've got an Avengers team of only eleven characters. Eleven....as in: "Ocean's Eleven." One short of "The Dirty Dozen," and two short of "Ocean's Thirteen."

It'll all work out just fine. Relax. :word:

[I'm Venom]

I'd settle for a scene where Hugh Jackman has the line "Do you want to lose the other eye?"

[jaqua99]

"Subconscious" motivations dont really work cinematically. No "thought bubbles".

Subconscious

No thought bubbles. It works completely fine. As a psych major, I totally get it, you can't think subconsciously. So it works.

Thanos himself doesn't realise he's done it. Adam Warlock tells him.
Yup

[psylockolussus]

I'm hoping they add Ant-Man in the roster.

The main characters of Guardians of the Galaxy will be in this movie but I hope they aren't gonna be members of the Avengers. Its just going to be a team-up for GOTG and The Avengers.

[cleverusername8]

Well they should keep in Iron Man and Hulk because let's face it, those two are the money makers for the GA. Then Cap and Thor were a big part of things especially for the connectedness of the MCU so it'd be wise to keep them on board as well.

However Black Widow and Hawkeye either need to step up their games or fade to background characters. It won't be hard for ScarJo to play eye candy even if she isn't physically on the team. And I know Jeremy Renner wants a bigger role but I doubt most people will really miss him if he isn't front and center in the action for Avengers 2.

So what I'm trying to say is keep the big 4 but make Widow and Hawkeye just SHIELD agents who work in the background with Fury and Hill.

It's probably safe to say Falcon will be on the the team due to his involvement in Cap 2 so we have him. Ant Man is a maybe and Wasp is a weaker maybe. Then a good possibility for Guardians making an appearance as well so I think that'll flesh out the team plenty.

If they choose to go on to make Avengers 3, there'll be more wiggle room for "rotation", a bigger roster and things like that.

[terry78]

Hawkeye needs more screen time so he ain't going nowhere. One of the only ones on the team with no superhuman abilities, you need to see how he deals with that.

[Chewy]

Hawkeye and Black Widow are as much a part of the team as the big four

[BatsDC]

Add Ant-Man and Wasp for A2, if they save Thanos for A3 bring together a slightly bigger group (Ms. Marvel, Black Panther etc.)

[Kiltman]

I don't think they will majorly shake things up. But I'd like to see a reimagining of Planet Hulk as the next Hulk movie. And for that to happen I could see Thanos land some punches on him then use the infinity gauntlet to send him across the galaxy when the hulk stupidly tries to "Loki Smash" him in their first encounter. That would be a big moment for the rest of the team to really understand what they are going up against compared to Loki.

So that would kinda be a shake-up of the roster, because hulk wouldn't be in half the film. Until the end that is..where the mid-credit scene shows where he is. Then at some point he could be found by the GOTG. I know some would hate this idea, but anyway to not have the Hulk get mad and destroy a city while being hunted down by Ross in the next movie is the way to go to me. Plus they can use Beta Ray-Bill (like they did in the animated film and because they dont own silver surfer) and maybe some other alien characters.

[Incredible Hans]

So is Wolverine. So is Hulk. So is Punisher.

People need to understand that some of these heroes do *not* play well with others, and don't fit in with teams like Avengers or X-Men at all.

I agree on Hulk and Punisher... but do you really think that Wolverine doesn't fit in with the X-Men? :eek:

[Baneis8feettall]

GA think Hulk was the best thing in Avengers (with Loki) so he must be in it.

[MrAnonymous]

Avengers 2 roster
Captain America
Iron Man
Hulk
Thor
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Ant-Man/Giant Man
Wasp

Villain: Ultron with Vision (who becomes a hero at the end)

Avengers 3 roster
Avengers 2 roster
Captain America
Iron Man
Hulk
Thor
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Yellowjacket
Wasp
Vision
Black Panther
Ms. Marvel

Villain: Thanos

[I'm Venom]

I'd love Spider-Man to join, unfortunately that's never going to happen. It would be cool to have Nick Fury show up after the credits of the next movie, with Mark Ruffalo reprising his role as Banner. No Hulk, though.

[BigThor]

GA think Hulk was the best thing in Avengers (with Loki) so he must be in it.

Most people who think are talking about his character though (which was great), they just like to see him smash stuff.

[jaqua99]

Thor
Captain America
Hulk
Ironman
The movie will once again center around them. All other new avengers will be supporting characters, in the sense that Fury was or black widow was
Given that, the next characters are are going to get
Ant-man
Vision
I am not feeling wasp becoming an avenger. Not sure why, just don't see it happening.

Avengers 3
We will have the addition of Ms Marvel, if the Kree are introduced, and Black Panther

That is my analysis

Avengers 2:
Captain America
Thor
Hulk
Ironman
Ant-man


Avengers 3:
Captain America
Thor
Hulk
Ironman
Ant-man
Vision (he may become one after defeating Ultron)
Black Panther
Ms Marvel

[Chewy]

Iron Man
Captain America
Hulk
Thor
Black Widow
Hawkeye

+ Falcon?
+ Ant-Man? (only if Ultron is the baddie)
+ Ms Captain Marvel? (only if they introduce her somewhere else first)

[marvelrobbins]

Anyone thinking Joss whedon won't bring back Black Widow while Scarlett Johansson still has contact for more marvel films don't understand him and his work.Even when he does projects focusing on men butt kicking women have tendacy to show up.

As for new characters joining the lineup the question Is will they Introduce any In sequel.
If Not the only poential new ones are The Falcon and Ant-Man,assuming Ant-Man Is out
before the Avengers sequel.

[cherokeesam]

Anyone thinking Joss whedon won't bring back Black Widow while Scarlett Johansson still has contact for more marvel films don't understand him and his work.Even when he does projects focusing on men butt kicking women have tendacy to show up.

As for new characters joining the lineup the question Is will they Introduce any In sequel.
If Not the only poential new ones are The Falcon and Ant-Man,assuming Ant-Man Is out
before the Avengers sequel.


In the recent Joss interview in some Japanese media outlet, which was very loosely Google-translated, he confirmed that the original six Avengers will be back in TA2. Didn't say much about who else he'd add to the roster.

[BatsDC]

But he did say atleast one new character would be introduced to the team.

[Asteroid-Man]

Out of curiosity, if they had a picture or video of Andrew Garfield walking and he's only credited as "Unknown Superhuman #2" or something, can Sony still sue? I mean if Garfield agreed to doing the cameo?

[Hawkingbird]

Out of curiosity, if they had a picture or video of Andrew Garfield walking and he's only credited as "Unknown Superhuman #2" or something, can Sony still sue? I mean if Garfield agreed to doing the cameo?

Yes. Although for the first time, it might be that the two studios can sort something out. I mean, the fanbases on Tumblr will go crazy :o


....so many fan bases have Tony x Steve together and Peter as their baby...

[marvelrobbins]

In the recent Joss interview in some Japanese media outlet, which was very loosely Google-translated, he confirmed that the original six Avengers will be back in TA2. Didn't say much about who else he'd add to the roster.

Chris Evans,Chris Hemsworth,Mark Ruffalo,and Scarlett's contracts means they will be back.

Big question Is will disney pay the small fortune required to get Robert Downey JR back

I never heard anything on what kind of contract Jeremy Renner signed but
I have little doudt Joss would bring him back If It Is up to him.

[Lorus]

Anyone thinking Joss whedon won't bring back Black Widow while Scarlett Johansson still has contact for more marvel films don't understand him and his work.Even when he does projects focusing on men butt kicking women have tendacy to show up.

I'm curious about this, is there an interview or something where this comes up? It seems an odd conclusion to come to, she's been very complimentary towards his work in interviews I've seen.

But yeah, I think we can safely say that all six Avengers are confirmed for the sequel with likely one additional member.

[Hawkingbird]

But he did say atleast one new character would be introduced to the team.

It'll be Falcon :o

[DrCosmic]

It'll be *at least* Falcon.

[Chewy]

I'm cool with it being Falcon. More Anthony Mackie is never a bad thing

[cherokeesam]

It'll be *at least* Falcon.

Yeah, I think the Ant-Man movie will potentially add anywhere from one to three other Avengers to the mix as well....it's just that Joss and Feige are still having to play coy about it until they can get something concrete from Wright on the film.

But once it's in the can, there's no way in hell they're making Ant-Man a one-shot that has no connection to the Avengers. Pym, Lang, and/or Janet will definitely be recruited.

[jaqua99]

Yeah, I think the Ant-Man movie will potentially add anywhere from one to three other Avengers to the mix as well....it's just that Joss and Feige are still having to play coy about it until they can get something concrete from Wright on the film.

But once it's in the can, there's no way in hell they're making Ant-Man a one-shot that has no connection to the Avengers. Pym, Lang, and/or Janet will definitely be recruited.

and Ultron will happen

[DrCosmic]

Yeah, I think the Ant-Man movie will potentially add anywhere from one to three other Avengers to the mix as well....it's just that Joss and Feige are still having to play coy about it until they can get something concrete from Wright on the film.

But once it's in the can, there's no way in hell they're making Ant-Man a one-shot that has no connection to the Avengers. Pym, Lang, and/or Janet will definitely be recruited.

I used to argue against this before, but I kinda agree now. They'll connect them if at all possible, and there must be some way. Even if it's set in the 60s and a present day Lang dies or something, they'll bring in the older Pym as a consultant, or have the Ultron program become a full fledged villain... something. I doubt they're going to bring over 3 full Avengers though... they didn't bring over Rhodey, for instance.

Edit: but I still think it will be even more autonomous from the MCU than the other solo films, since it wasn't originally planned to be in the MCU, and as far as we know, no changes have pushed to make it fit within the MCU.

[BatsDC]

I'd imagine the 60s story has changed too, as that was said a long time ago

[DrCosmic]

That thinking is so funny to me. Like words have an expiration date.

[BatsDC]

They wouldn't have just been sitting on the same script for this long. It would have gone through changes, been rewritten, had plot lines chnaged up a little. It's likley what Edgar said will have changed, even if only a little.

[DrCosmic]

They wouldn't have just been sitting on the same script for this long. It would have gone through changes, been rewritten, had plot lines chnaged up a little. It's likley what Edgar said will have changed, even if only a little.

Changing plot lines a little is not at all changing the setting: the time and place the story takes place in. Unless the director changes, he's going to keep the basic idea he had that made him want to do the movie in the first place.

[Lorus]

I don't know if we'll see Ant Man in Avengers 2. I'm assuming that by taking this 'godfather' type role in the MCU, Whedon has already planned the sequel to a large extent. The fact that they haven't offered any release date for Ant Man suggests to me that they're not confident that they can actually make it before Avengers 2 comes out and I doubt Whedon can really plan or write the sequel if he isn't sure which characters are going to be in it. Add that to the notion that Wright's film will take place in the past of the MCU and I think it's unlikely we'll see Ant Man in the sequel.

[psylockolussus]

As long as they add one character (Ant-Man or Falcon), I'll be happy!

[Chewy]

Don't want to read too much into this, but aside from the movie characters, the ones who are up front and center are Wolvy, Spidey, and some of the New Mutants (not relevant stuff out of the way first) and Falcon, Captain Marvel, and Spider-Woman

http://i.newsarama.com/images/avengerscombined_02.jpg

[Doomed_hero]

i would not mind the Pyms showing up cause for one there needs to be another female on the team and jan would be great and two. Hank kicks ass.

[marcvader]

i would not mind the Pyms showing up cause for one there needs to be another female on the team and jan would be great and two. Hank kicks ass.
:up:

[ericadawn16]

*fingers crossed for Janet, Carol and/or Wanda*

[jaqua99]

there is no reason for Carol to be in it yet unfortunately :/

[Chewy]

there is no reason for Carol to be in it yet unfortunately :/
Other than the first movie being a total sausagefest, of course

[marcvader]

Other than the first movie being a total sausagefest, of course

Yeah, and the way moviegoers voiced their disgust over that.

[Chewy]

Yeah, and the way moviegoers voiced their disgust over that.
Yep. I know at least 2 people who wouldn't go see it a 5th time, purely to protest the sausagey nature of the whole thing.

Anecdotal evidence, doesn't get more reliable than that.

[marcvader]

Lol

[Chewy]

On another note they're putting Falcon everywhere: front and center in the NOW Avengers comics, starring in the new Avengers cartoon, etc. I don't think it's a coincidence

[jaqua99]

Other than the first movie being a total sausagefest, of course


Sorry. Let me rephrase that, there is no way to really introduce her as Ms Marvel yet

[spideymouse]

Sorry. Let me rephrase that, there is no way to really introduce her as Ms Marvel yetYeah, I think there's plenty of opportunity to introduce Carol Danvers in Phase II. Set her up as an agent/head of SWORD in Thor. Have her be associated with Peter Quill. Have her pilot Cap somewhere in an F-22. Something.

[jaqua99]

Yeah, I think there's plenty of opportunity to introduce Carol Danvers in Phase II. Set her up as an agent/head of SWORD in Thor. Have her be associated with Peter Quill. Have her pilot Cap somewhere in an F-22. Something.

Well there is. But if I am not mistaken, doesn't she have a lot to do with the Kree? If that is the case, I feel like she wouldn't be able to be introduced until the kree are.

[spideymouse]

Well there is. But if I am not mistaken, doesn't she have a lot to do with the Kree? If that is the case, I feel like she wouldn't be able to be introduced until the kree are.Yeah, this is where we agree about her not being able to show up as Ms. Marvel until later. I would say that she can't get her powers until around the time that the Kree stuff would be happening. But the character as Carol Danvers can still play a role/make cameo appearances in events before then. The trick is to find an actress willing to do that, as well as for Marvel to have sufficient foresight/planning capabilities--both of which may be difficult things to ask for.

[Chewy]

Deal with some of the Kree stuff in the SHIELD show :up:

[Hawkingbird]

Hopefully SWORD will come into that show.

[Silvermoth]

Yep. I know at least 2 people who wouldn't go see it a 5th time, purely to protest the sausagey nature of the whole thing.

Anecdotal evidence, doesn't get more reliable than that.

There's no reason to be rude. Some people did criticize the lack of good female characters/Avengers. That's a good way to start improving things in the sequel.

[Dylan.G]

I think Hawkeye should turn into Ronin at some point, but still be part of the avengers, its c change, but same person..

[KangConquers]

Nah. Barton's not even really hawkeye now anyway. He's a SHIELD Agent with a bow.

Assuming we only get 6 more characters in Avengers 2-3 to add to the 6 we have, who would be your "second six?"

Mine:

1. Ant-Man (Pym)
2. Wasp
3. Vision
4. Black Panther
5. Scarlet Witch
6. Quicksilver

[marcvader]

If they actually added 6 more to the franchise, I'd say add:

1. Pym
2. Wasp
3. Vision
4. Ms. Marvel
5. Black Panther
6. Scarlett Witch

[Chewy]

1. Ms Captain Marvel
2. Scarlet Witch
3. Vision
4. Black Panther
5. Falcon
6. Pym (Only if they go Ultron)

Not that I think they'll add more than 2-3 in the next two movies

[KangConquers]

1. Ms Captain Marvel
2. Scarlet Witch
3. Vision
4. Black Panther
5. Falcon
6. Pym (Only if they go Ultron)

Not that I think they'll add more than 2-3 in the next two movies

If I was going to guess which six we'll get, it would probably be.

Phase 2:

1. Falcon (Captain America: The Winter Soldier)
2. Hank Pym (Ant-Man)
3. Wasp (Ant-Man)


Phase 3:

1. Black Panther (Black Panther Solo film)
2. Doctor Strange (Doctor Strange solo film)
3. Ms. Marvel (Cameo in a phase 3 movie or spun out of the SHIELD series)

I'm just a total pirate hooker for 60s Avengers.

[xeno000]

Yep. I know at least 2 people who wouldn't go see it a 5th time, purely to protest the sausagey nature of the whole thing.

Anecdotal evidence, doesn't get more reliable than that.


The fact that The Avengers was a sausagefest was a total plus for me. Sure, I want to see Jan and Wanda (and Monica and Tigra*) on the big screen, but I was okay with having a bunch of hot guys in spandex and metal to enjoy in the first movie. Also, I loved Scarlett's kickass portrayal of the Black Widow, so I feel the female side was well-represented. For now.


They need to add superheroines in the sequels, however. What could be overlooked or excused in the first movie won't fly as time goes by. I'm still pissed as hell that the Wasp was not included; as a founding member she deserved to be there. The Scarlet Witch joined the team in issue #16, which is close to the beginning, and she remained an integral part of the team for many years. Wanda was one of the second wave of Avengers after the founders quit, which is further justification for bringing her onboard. Marvel has Wanda's rights, so it should not be a problem to include her now, unless they're dedicated to remaining a sausage factory forever.


* All the guys who thought I was a prude for wanting Ms. Marvel's costume changed will be shocked -- shocked! -- to hear that I'd be fine with Ms. Tigra appearing in all her bikini-clad glory. Nobody in their right mind puts clothes on a cat. :word:

[Chewy]

If I was going to guess which six we'll get, it would probably be.

Phase 2:

1. Falcon (Captain America: The Winter Soldier)
2. Hank Pym (Ant-Man)
3. Wasp (Ant-Man)


Phase 3:

1. Black Panther (Black Panther Solo film)
2. Doctor Strange (Doctor Strange solo film)
3. Ms. Marvel (Cameo in a phase 3 movie or spun out of the SHIELD series)

I'm just a total pirate hooker for 60s Avengers.
I mean 2-3 total, not per flick

And I think one of them will be Warlock, in a Death of Warlock sort-of-adaptation

[Marathon]

Since Ant-Man & Wasp are going to take two places, that leaves very little room to shoehorn any more characters in. After those two I would be fine with any one of these:

Scarlet Witch (although probably only going to appear when/if Coulson "returns" as the Vision)
She-Hulk (possible interesting quarrels/talks with Bruce?)
Ms Marvel (as has been said before, probably requires some sort of Kree portion inserted into the plot; Danvers of course can/should appear before that)
Black Panther (although I don't know much about him)

Things will be quite different for TA3 because many of the now established stars might want to do something else by then (RDJ & Gwyneth for example).

[KangConquers]

I mean 2-3 total, not per flick

And I think one of them will be Warlock, in a Death of Warlock sort-of-adaptation

True. I can't see Whedon not doing an adaptation of Avengers Annual #7.

I think Falcon is a lock for Avengers 2. The forthcoming cartoon indicates it.

[Human Torch]

My top 6 would be:

1.Wasp
2.Pym
3.Ms Marvel
5.Vision
6.Scarlet Witch

I doubt we'd get Vision & Scarlet Witch since Fox has the rights,and I rather not have a watered down version.

[spideymouse]

My top 6 would be:

1.Wasp
2.Pym
3.Ms Marvel
5.Vision
6.Scarlet Witch

I doubt we'd get Vision & Scarlet Witch since Fox has the rights,and I rather not have a watered down version.Who's your fourth? YOUR FOURTH?! haha.

[Human Torch]

Invisible Woman.:woot:

[marcvader]

:rimshot:

[Human Torch]

:hehe:

[Silvermoth]

Invisible Woman.:woot:
I can't see that :hehe:

[xeno000]

My top 6 would be:

1.Wasp
2.Pym
3.Ms Marvel
5.Vision
6.Scarlet Witch

I doubt we'd get Vision & Scarlet Witch since Fox has the rights,and I rather not have a watered down version.


Marvel has the rights to the Vision free and clear. They share the rights to the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver with Fox. If Marvel uses the twins they can't refer to Magneto as their father or call them mutants; Fox can't mention the Avengers or any characters that Marvel owns.


It would be ideal if Marvel used Wanda (with or without Pietro) in an Avengers sequel before Fox decides to **** them over in one of its wretched X franchise films. The way Fox operates, I wouldn't put it past them to tell Vaughn to use the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver solely to ruin Marvel's chances of ever including them in The Avengers. (And based on the way Vaughn's last film treated female characters, Wanda would probably be a stripper with Pietro as her manager.)

[DrCosmic]

My Top 6

1. Black Panther
2. Ms. Marvel
3. Vision (by hook or crook, the personality is more important than who builds him)
4. Giant Man (Whoever, even Barton)
5. Luke Cage
6. War Machine

I know Falcon is a given, it'll be alright to see him, but he's never been my favorite.

[Chewy]

Marvel has the rights to the Vision free and clear. They share the rights to the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver with Fox. If Marvel uses the twins they can't refer to Magneto as their father or call them mutants; Fox can't mention the Avengers or any characters that Marvel owns.


It would be ideal if Marvel used Wanda (with or without Pietro) in an Avengers sequel before Fox decides to **** them over in one of its wretched X franchise films. The way Fox operates, I wouldn't put it past them to tell Vaughn to use the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver solely to ruin Marvel's chances of ever including them in The Avengers. (And based on the way Vaughn's last film treated female characters, Wanda would probably be a stripper with Pietro as her manager.)
But then the question becomes... if Scarlet Witch really breaks out in an Avengers sequel, wouldn't Fox just immediately turn around and put their own version of Scarlet Witch in their movies anyway?

[Silvermoth]

Not really. Marvel needs to give permission before they use their characters in a movie right? That's what cockblocked the Daredevil remake. I don't think Marvel would agree to something if it went against themselves.

The only way they could do it is if Fox suddenly turns around and does something random like making Galactus a cloud.

[Chewy]

What cockblocked the Daredevil remake is that their 7 year window to make a Daredevil movie was closing.

Fox keeps making the X-Men movies, and they will keep making the X-Men movies.

[DrCosmic]

But then the question becomes... if Scarlet Witch really breaks out in an Avengers sequel, wouldn't Fox just immediately turn around and put their own version of Scarlet Witch in their movies anyway?

That's a good point, Fox would probably try to capitalize on that.

[AcidMage]

In terms of the properties still in the possession of other studios, we can already see the attempts at creating their own "Universe" films with the announcement of a Venom film. I seem to remember the X-franchise was supposed to be much more fleshed out, too, with more "Origins" movies. The problem was they didn't have the right people working on those movies, but now? I kinda feel they do.

A massive cross-over film would be difficult to wrangle, and would teeter dangerously towards pointless fan-service, like The Last Stand including Multiple Man for no goddamn reason, and Phoenix - arguably the greatest character in X-Men comics - becoming little more than a foot-note pretending to be a catalyst.

Additionally, these films aren't made entirely for the hardcore comic book fans, they are also heavily marketed to people who have never read a comic book in their lives, so too many nods to characters (such as the - albeit cool - Black Panther cameo someone mentioned earlier) might leave them scratching their heads.

But hey, I'm not saying it couldn't be done - focus on a key group of five or six heroes, with others providing supporting roles. A lot of characterisation would need to be handled through action sequences, I think.

[Scar Predator]

I think they'll just add instead of rotate. Cap, IM, and Thor will stay. The only way I see the Hulk leaving is if he turns on the Avengers, which I highly doubt after the end of the first film.

Panther, Ant Man, and Wasp are locks. Vision and Ms. Marvel are probables.

[cherokeesam]

I think they'll just add instead of rotate. Cap, IM, and Thor will stay. The only way I see the Hulk leaving is if he turns on the Avengers, which I highly doubt after the end of the first film.

Panther, Ant Man, and Wasp are locks. Vision and Ms. Marvel are probables.

I can only see one of those being a *possible* lock: Ant-Man. So far, Wasp still hasn't even been *mentioned* by Edgar Wright, so we can't expect her to be in the Ant-Man film at all, until further notice.

There's only one "lock" I see so far: Falcon, in CATWS, is being groomed for Avengers 2. Ant-Man --- and any auxiliary characters, like Scott Lang and/or Hank Pym, and Wasp --- will make the team *if* Wright gets his film in on time. So that's a very big "if." As for Vision and Ms. Marvel, they've never been mentioned in any rumors or interviews, just fanboy wishlisting on the forums. (Including a fanboy wishTweet from Vin Diesel himself to play Vision.)

[spideymouse]

I can only see one of those being a *possible* lock: Ant-Man. So far, Wasp still hasn't even been *mentioned* by Edgar Wright, so we can't expect her to be in the Ant-Man film at all, until further notice.

There's only one "lock" I see so far: Falcon, in CATWS, is being groomed for Avengers 2. Ant-Man --- and any auxiliary characters, like Scott Lang and/or Hank Pym, and Wasp --- will make the team *if* Wright gets his film in on time. So that's a very big "if." As for Vision and Ms. Marvel, they've never been mentioned in any rumors or interviews, just fanboy wishlisting on the forums. (Including a fanboy wishTweet from Vin Diesel himself to play Vision.)What's a "possible lock"?

And, isn't fanboy wishlisting on forums pretty much what this thread has turned into?

[Marathon]

I'm not too enthusiastic about Falcon, to be honest... the character is not a "heavy hitter" nor particularly quirky personality- or power-wise... kind of hard to get excited about a character like that, especially in the context of Avengers.

[Havok83]

The only character I feel NEEDS to be added is Ms. Marvel. My second choice would be Black Panther. Im okay with ditching Hawkeye and Black Widow (although I loved her here)

[GoldGoblin]

Why not have The Civil War story?That's a way to change the roster,it's a way to make Captain America a leader for a team.We could see some heroes thrown into special made prisons so they don't get any more screen time for the movie,and we can see new heroes pop up for some screen time.

[Havok83]

Ugh no. For one theres not enough heroes in the MU to do CW justice and besides, the team JUST formed. They dont need to be fighting and splitting this early

[natey2k4]

How could anyone want Hawkeye to leave before 1) you get any character development and 2) you get to see some awesome trick arrows?

Marvel has done a lot to push Hawkeye lately. He's also being included in the new Avengers TV show, he's not going anywhere.

The roster will be;
The same + Falcon (unless he dies in the Captain America movie at the hands of Winter Soldier).

Depending on Ant-Man, they may include Pym, but I'm not sure.

I expect Thanos to defeat the Guardians of the Galaxy as well, so I don't see them joining the fight.

[cherokeesam]

How could anyone want Hawkeye to leave before 1) you get any character development and 2) you get to see some awesome trick arrows?

Marvel has done a lot to push Hawkeye lately. He's also being included in the new Avengers TV show, he's not going anywhere.

The roster will be;
The same + Falcon (unless he dies in the Captain America movie at the hands of Winter Soldier).

Depending on Ant-Man, they may include Pym, but I'm not sure.

I expect Thanos to defeat the Guardians of the Galaxy as well, so I don't see them joining the fight.

Where are you getting Falcon and Hawkeye appearing in the SHIELD TV show? (Note that it *is* a SHIELD TV show, and Joss Whedon has made it abundantly clear that it doesn't have a thing to do with the Avengers.) The only characters that have been confirmed for the show are a bunch of SHIELD agents who were invented specifically for TV, and who have no comic-book counterparts.

[That Guy]

I believe he was talking about the new avengers assemble animated show.

[I'm Venom]

I don't get this sense that movies like this are obligated to have a certain level of diversity. It's just weird to me that this is a problem for people. Same thing for women, I don't see the big deal.

[Chewy]

Thanks for sharing.

[Silvermoth]

A lack of diversity in an Avengers cast makes as much sense as not including Iron man, Thor or Captain America or a representative of them.

[I'm Venom]

The Chitauri lack diversity.

[cherokeesam]

The Chitauri lack diversity.

what is this i don't even


Let me know when the Chitauri get their own popular comic book team that franchises out for 50+ years. Then your comparison might not be moot.

The Avengers don't lack diversity. Never have, never will.

[terry78]

If Hulk/Banner leaves, it'll be temporary like it always is in the books. Something may happen where trust is broken amongst them, he gets angry at them, says he quits, then comes back later in the movie or leaves at the end of the flick, possibly leaving it open for a new Hulk film then his return in the third.

[I'm Venom]

what is this i don't even

Let me know when the Chitauri get their own popular comic book team that franchises out for 50+ years. Then your comparison might not be moot.

The Avengers don't lack diversity. Never have, never will.

You missed the point totally. Ideally, it would be nice to see more diversity, but that kind of diversity can't exist for its own sake.

[Chewy]

It was a stupid point. It's for the sake of better reflecting our society. Superheroes are escapist fare meant to represent the human ideal, fighting off the "bad guys" and striving to do what's right. A really bizarre metaphor for our system of ethics, characters for our kids to look up to identify with.

It's hard to pretend it's truly all-inclusive entertainment when it's a bunch of straight white dudes hanging out and saving the day.

"lol all the CGI alien bad guys look the same lol." Sigh.

[spideymouse]

It was a stupid point. It's for the sake of better reflecting our society. Superheroes are escapist fare meant to represent the human ideal, fighting off the "bad guys" and striving to do what's right. A really bizarre metaphor for our system of ethics, characters for our kids to look up to identify with.

It's hard to pretend it's truly all-inclusive entertainment when it's a bunch of straight white dudes hanging out and saving the day.

"lol all the CGI alien bad guys look the same lol." Sigh.Exactly. Well said. It's the idea that when a team has members each bringing something different and unique to the table, it can become greater than the sum of its parts because of those differences. The same kind of imagery depicts a diverse band of rebels vs. the uniform, sterile Empire in Star Wars.

[DrCosmic]

Excellent metaphor. Diverse backgrounds help color the universe, allowing for richer, broader, deeper story. Diversity is a part of life, and more of it can be captured if that diversity is used in storytelling, unless exclusion/racism/sexism/etc is part of the story you're telling, like in a period film or something.

I could almost understand if the comics team wasn't about inclusiveness and teamwork, and filled with real-life diverse team members.

[Chewy]

It's a major reason the X-Men really broke out in the 90s, both as a comic and a cartoon

http://i.imgur.com/aeVUj.jpg

[cherokeesam]

It's a major reason the X-Men really broke out in the 90s, both as a comic and a cartoon

http://i.imgur.com/aeVUj.jpg

...And then Singer missed the point entirely and made them all wear matching black leather "school uniforms." :oldrazz:

[I'm Venom]

It was a stupid point. It's for the sake of better reflecting our society. Superheroes are escapist fare meant to represent the human ideal, fighting off the "bad guys" and striving to do what's right. A really bizarre metaphor for our system of ethics, characters for our kids to look up to identify with.

It's hard to pretend it's truly all-inclusive entertainment when it's a bunch of straight white dudes hanging out and saving the day.

"lol all the CGI alien bad guys look the same lol." Sigh.

Shoehorning minorities into a film which doesn't call for any wouldn't improve things one bit, and the fact is two roles were shoehorned into the movies to expressly replace white characters (Fury, Heimdall) with black actors. Let's make them female just to get that diversity train going, eh?

[Chewy]

The notion that there are properties that "don't call for" minority characters is expressly the problem. One that Marvel doesn't appear to agree with, thankfully.

These stories are products of the 60's. Entertainment was certainly less diverse and inclusive at the time; if a minority character appeared they were either a token or a caricature, usually both. Part of adapting these stories for the screen is adapting them for a modern audience - none of these comics, if written for the first time today, would feature all-white casts, and rarely do you see a piece of media that doesn't prominently feature characters of both genders.

Let's make them female just to get that diversity train going, eh?
Sure, why not?

[I'm Venom]

Sure, why not?

That would be stupid. They made Nick Fury black, isn't that enough?

I think maybe he was making a joke there, cherokeesam.

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

[cherokeesam]

Shoehorning minorities into a film which doesn't call for any wouldn't improve things one bit, and the fact is two roles were shoehorned into the movies to expressly replace white characters (Fury, Heimdall) with black actors. Let's make them female just to get that diversity train going, eh?

How would adding blacks, women and other minorities be shoehorning them into the Avengers? The Avengers have ALWAYS had a diverse "affirmative action" lineup, even from the days when it was considered groundbreaking and risky to do so. Adding Black Panther or War Machine or Falcon to the lineup wouldn't be just adding blacks for affirmative action's sake, any more than it could be considered catering to feminists to add Wasp or Ms. Marvel or Scarlet Witch. These are PART of the Avengers, and always were.

Avengers have always been on that "diversity train." The current MCU lineup is just the locomotive driving that train --- there's a ton of cars pulling behind it.

[xeno000]

Where is this argument in favor of an all-white, all-male, non-diverse Marvel Universe even coming from? The comics themselves feature people of color and women and have for decades. The Avengers specifically have had heroes from different backgrounds since the '60s. The team has never been an all-male bastion of lily whiteness. The Wasp was a founding member -- and a female! -- while Black Panther joined in the mid-'60s. Fans who would like to see more diversity are simply asking that the movies reflect the source material.

[I'm Venom]

How would adding blacks, women and other minorities be shoehorning them into the Avengers? The Avengers have ALWAYS had a diverse "affirmative action" lineup, even from the days when it was considered groundbreaking and risky to do so. Adding Black Panther or War Machine or Falcon to the lineup wouldn't be just adding blacks for affirmative action's sake, any more than it could be considered catering to feminists to add Wasp or Ms. Marvel or Scarlet Witch. These are PART of the Avengers, and always were.

Avengers have always been on that "diversity train." The current MCU lineup is just the locomotive driving that train --- there's a ton of cars pulling behind it.

It's a cheap and easy way to add diversity to your lineup.

[Chewy]

That would be stupid. They made Nick Fury black, isn't that enough?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mat706VEsN1re1154o1_400.gif

Henrietta Pym for the Avengers sequel!

[I'm Venom]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mat706VEsN1re1154o1_400.gif

Henrietta Pym for the Avengers sequel!

I wouldn't hold my breath, and for anyone thinking that Pym is essential, they could always introduce Ultron through Stark. He does robotics too.

[pr0xyt0xin]

I wouldn't hold my breath, and for anyone thinking that Pym is essential, they could always introduce Ultron through Stark. He does robotics too.

bleh

[xeno000]

It's a cheap and easy way to add diversity to your lineup.


You keep saying this but you aren't making sense. The fact remains that the team in the comic books has always had women and minorities. Diversity has been part of the Avengers since their inception. Adding minority characters who have a long and storied comic book history to the movie franchise is simply a natural progression. Or are you going to argue that the Wasp, the Black Panther, the Scarlet Witch, the Falcon, Photon, Ms./Captain Marvel, etc., are just tokens "shoehorned" in to the comics despite the fact that all of them have been associated with The Avengers for decades?

[cherokeesam]

You keep saying this but you aren't making sense. The fact remains that the team in the comic books has always had women and minorities. Diversity has been part of the Avengers since their inception. Adding minority characters who have a long and storied comic book history to the movie franchise is simply a natural progression. Or are you going to argue that the Wasp, the Black Panther, the Scarlet Witch, the Falcon, Photon, Ms./Captain Marvel, etc., are just tokens "shoehorned" in to the comics despite the fact that all of them have been associated with The Avengers for decades?

Exactly.

I'm thinking that I'm Venom has never read or even seen the cover of an Avengers comic book in his life. "They shouldn't add women & minorities to an Avengers movie; just because the Avengers comic book had lots of women & minorities doesn't count" :huh::huh::huh:1/2 "WTFs" there

[Lorus]

I don't necessarily think that anyone is saying that adding characters that are minorities/women to the Avengers roster counts as shoehorning if they were chosen by Whedon for reasons that serve his story directly. However, if he was told he had to include, say Falcon, just to bump up the number of minorities and then had to work out what to do with him after the fact, then I would agree it's unnecessary. Let the storytellers use whatever characters they feel they need to without hampering them with other concerns.

[Chewy]

No major Hollywood film is ever just a story told by a storyteller. There are always secondary concerns that weigh on those involved, and I would argue diversity/audience representation is one of the more valid concerns. One that Whedon himself most likely agrees with and will work toward, given his past work.

[cherokeesam]

I don't necessarily think that anyone is saying that adding characters that are minorities/women to the Avengers roster counts as shoehorning if they were chosen by Whedon for reasons that serve his story directly. However, if he was told he had to include, say Falcon, just to bump up the number of minorities and then had to work out what to do with him after the fact, then I would agree it's unnecessary. Let the storytellers use whatever characters they feel they need to without hampering them with other concerns.

Whedon knows the Avengers. A lot better than some of *you* do. He knows damn well what role Falcon and other minority/female characters play in the team, and I have no doubt in my mind that not only is he *open* to increasing the diversity of the team in Avengers 2, he's counting on it.

[I'm Venom]

You keep saying this but you aren't making sense. The fact remains that the team in the comic books has always had women and minorities. Diversity has been part of the Avengers since their inception. Adding minority characters who have a long and storied comic book history to the movie franchise is simply a natural progression. Or are you going to argue that the Wasp, the Black Panther, the Scarlet Witch, the Falcon, Photon, Ms./Captain Marvel, etc., are just tokens "shoehorned" in to the comics despite the fact that all of them have been associated with The Avengers for decades?

I'm not convinced it could be pulled off well enough.

I think Marvel had or has a plan for their minority characters, but Avengers kinda got in the way, so it looks like Phase II is going to be big with sequels to all of the movies (except Hulk) and Guardians of the Galaxy.

[DrCosmic]

Why is adding white characters easier to pull off than adding minority characters, Venom?

It's a major reason the X-Men really broke out in the 90s, both as a comic and a cartoon

And before that in the 70s, when they added people of different nationalities, including a black girl. "Diversity: It's not just for black people any more." When X-Men was all white it flopped. Fantastic Four - love 'em, I do, I do - lost their importance and relevance and commercial appeal a while ago. Same, to a lesser degree, with the Justice League. Meanwhile Avengers, X-Men and other ardently diverse properties have continued to flourish and continued to capture the masses just by showing up and looking like the modern world.

[Chewy]

I'm not convinced it could be pulled off well enough.
Because it's so challenging to write a character who's not a white American dude... :huh:

[I'm Venom]

Because it's so challenging to write a character who's not a white American dude... :huh:

:whatever:

Why is adding white characters easier to pull off than adding minority characters, Venom?

How many black readers do you honestly think make up the industry? Black people may unite to see Diary of a Mad Black Woman, but try getting them to unite for heroes. Especially one they don't know about. It isn't that the movie would turn out bad. It just won't have the appeal.

[Chewy]

How many black readers do you honestly think make up the industry? Black people may unite to see Diary of a Mad Black Woman, but try getting them to unite for heroes. Especially one they don't know about. It isn't that the movie would turn out bad. It just won't have the appeal.
Ugh.

[pr0xyt0xin]

my pet peeve:

racists that don't know they are racist.

[ThePhantasm]

The big four are a must: Hulk, Cap, Iron Man, Thor. Black Widow adds a female presence. Hawkeye is unnecessary and could drop from the roster at any point.

[Chewy]

Yep but it would be nice to see him get some solid character development first and exit in style instead of being dumped unceremoniously ala Nightcrawler

[DrCosmic]

How many black readers do you honestly think make up the industry? Black people may unite to see Diary of a Mad Black Woman, but try getting them to unite for heroes. Especially one they don't know about. It isn't that the movie would turn out bad. It just won't have the appeal.

Dude, black people go to see superhero movies already. Only about 60% of U.S. tickets are purchased by whites.

Also, white people like black superheroes too, especially in team situations. X-Men exploded when they figured that out. So did Avengers, come to think of it. In fact, the only way DC could compete with Marvel's explosion was by putting together a diverse version of the Teen Titans. Like I said before, diversity isn't primarily for black people. I think you're drawing some really hard racial lines and you're not noticing there's plenty of black and white people on both sides.

[Lorus]

Whedon knows the Avengers. A lot better than some of *you* do. He knows damn well what role Falcon and other minority/female characters play in the team, and I have no doubt in my mind that not only is he *open* to increasing the diversity of the team in Avengers 2, he's counting on it.

You seem to be assuming that characters always play the same role in every story they're in and can easily be slipped into place providing you've read enough comics. Most of the characters in Marvel's stable could contribute something great or invaluable to a film given the right circumstances but if the particular Avengers story being told doesn't obviously lend itself to a particular character then I wouldn't want them used just for diversity's sake. I'm not talking about how powers sets are used or any of that background noise, just pointing out that some characters are more appropriately used to explore some themes than others. Nobody isn't open to including a more diverse group, that would be ridiculous, but I maintain it should not be an initial concern. A good story will connect with everybody regardless of ethnicity or gender.

[TheHeatKitchen]

Hey, I have an idea.... let's make every topic on the board about race somehow!

I'm pretty sure changing the roster means different characters, not changing features of the existing characters.

[DrCosmic]

^But it does include changing existing characters at times: ie Nick Fury.

You seem to be assuming that characters always play the same role in every story they're in and can easily be slipped into place providing you've read enough comics. Most of the characters in Marvel's stable could contribute something great or invaluable to a film given the right circumstances but if the particular Avengers story being told doesn't obviously lend itself to a particular character then I wouldn't want them used just for diversity's sake. I'm not talking about how powers sets are used or any of that background noise, just pointing out that some characters are more appropriately used to explore some themes than others. Nobody isn't open to including a more diverse group, that would be ridiculous, but I maintain it should not be an initial concern. A good story will connect with everybody regardless of ethnicity or gender.

Hmmm... a good story involves diversity, and it works. Stories where all the characters have the same: job/personality/clothes/etc are less appealing that stories with diversity in them, because a story is powered by its contrasts which come exclusively from its diversity. A good story without diversity is like a good painting with only one color. This naturally extends to ethnic diversity - unless your theme is about people being the same in a given way like in a period movie. Again, compare the mainstream popularity of X-Men and Avengers vs Fantastic Four and Justice League. Compare how many events revolve around the former vs the latter. Diversity is awesome, and should always be a concern for an audience that lives in diversity.

Is there any theme that a minority character is not appropriate to explore?

[Lorus]

Hmmm... a good story involves diversity, and it works. Stories where all the characters have the same: job/personality/clothes/etc are less appealing that stories with diversity in them, because a story is powered by its contrasts which come exclusively from its diversity.

Agreed. That's a given for all stories but you're referring to diversity in things far more complex and nuanced than skin colour or gender. If I want to tell an Iron Man story with redemption at its heart then I'm going to put Tony in the suit and not Rhodey. That has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the individual aspects of the character, Rhodey was never a naive arms dealer.

A good story without diversity is like a good painting with only one color. This naturally extends to ethnic diversity - unless your theme is about people being the same in a given way like in a period movie. Again, compare the mainstream popularity of X-Men and Avengers vs Fantastic Four and Justice League. Compare how many events revolve around the former vs the latter. Diversity is awesome, and should always be a concern for an audience that lives in diversity.

Is there any theme that a minority character is not appropriate to explore?

I don't think this extends nearly as naturally as you claim here, jumping from all white men with identical characteristics, jobs etc to a racially diverse group as if there is no medium. Ethnicity and gender can be very important in providing a story with diversity in opinion or perspective, but usually that will be in stories more specifically about cultural differences, inequality etc. More often though, I'd say that characters contribute more based on their characterisation and actions. Fury didn't contribute to the Avengers by being black but rather by proving a parallel to Loki and demonstrating the equivalent problems with uniting under one organisation. Here, white Fury would be equally applicable but, say Sharon Carter, wouldn't as she would not operate in the same way Fury would.

[DrCosmic]

Wait, if racially diverse is the extreme... what's the medium? :funny:

The only reason I think it extends naturally is because that's what I see time and time again. Look at the X-Men or Avengers. Or any big popular bit of entertainment set in the modern day. Lots of diversity, but the Matrix isn't *about* cultural differences, any more than a story where people from different jobs work together is about their differences, but *all* differences make the story deeper and better.

Now what you're saying is true for the opposite, stories that are about cultural differences and inequality are often nearly all white or all black (or all whatever ethnicity it's about), because that fits the story, which is about exclusion. Mad Men. Roots. Inclusion story -> Inclusion characters. Exclusion story -> Exclusion characters.

On your example, we're not talking about starring roles, we're talking about inclusion as heroes. Rhodey being included, as an equal superhero no less is an example of diversity enhancing a story. You have two guys, good friends, different as night and day - on top of that, one of them is black and one is white, making them even more different. See how subtle that is? Then they both end up being armored heroes fighting back to back in different colored suits with different weapons. Its a simple little touch that adds a thousand nuances to the story, which is not about race. Black Fury does this same thing to an even higher level with even more nuances.

Now, what is your basis for thinking differences in ethnicity and gender are less nuanced or complex than differences in jobs and clothing?

[I'm Venom]

Dude, black people go to see superhero movies already. Only about 60% of U.S. tickets are purchased by whites.

Also, white people like black superheroes too, especially in team situations. X-Men exploded when they figured that out. So did Avengers, come to think of it. In fact, the only way DC could compete with Marvel's explosion was by putting together a diverse version of the Teen Titans. Like I said before, diversity isn't primarily for black people. I think you're drawing some really hard racial lines and you're not noticing there's plenty of black and white people on both sides.

I really don't care to see Luke Cage. Black Panther could be good, but he has no powers for us to be like "wow." Not much thought is put into creating black heroes. They're there more so for the diversity than actually having something to do.

[Spider-Vader]

The big four are a must: Hulk, Cap, Iron Man, Thor. Black Widow adds a female presence. Hawkeye is unnecessary and could drop from the roster at any point.

Watch yo' mouth boy! :oldrazz:

Hawkeye's been a big Avenger in the comics for most of its run, he deserves to be one in the movies too!

[cherokeesam]

Dr. Cosmic is on a roll tonight --- I'm 110% behind everything he's posted here today about diversity, especially in Avengers.

And I'm Venom, you keep digging that hole for yourself deeper and deeper. Best just to drop out of this altogether before you make it any worse. You're getting pretty damn close to burning crosses in this thread and you don't even realize it.

[I'm Venom]

Care to elaborate?

[cherokeesam]

Care to elaborate?

No.
And neither should you.

[M-2]

No.
And neither should you.

Being a person of colour, I wanted to add my 2c in this, but then again I'll just take your advice, and end it here...

[xeno000]

Being a person of colour, I wanted to add my 2c in this, but then again I'll just take your advice, and end it here...

Well, we've already been told that we only go see Tyler Perry movies, that heroes of color (and women) are only shoehorned into movies and comics in an unnecessary attempt to make them more diverse (whatever that is), and that Black heroes in particular don't have interesting powers and won't draw an audience. What more is there to say?

[Tony Stark]

Based on what we've heard so far, here's what I'm hoping we get:

Iron Man
Captain America
Thor
Hulk
AntMan
Wasp
Dr. Strange

Others I'd like to see added:

Luke Cage
Vision

The big problem is you don't want to lose the balance of the characters that they had in the first film. I'm guessing Joss will want to bring back Black Widow, as he really established her character, and might have fun with two female characters in the cast.

To me Tony, Steve, Thor and Bruce all have to be there. They are the Kirk, Spock, Bones and Scotty of this series.

[cherokeesam]

To me Tony, Steve, Thor and Bruce all have to be there. They are the Kirk, Spock, Bones and Scotty of this series.

Agreed.
In the comics, the Avengers featured "The Big Three": Thor, Cap and Iron Man. Hulk was never officially a member and left the group after just 1.5 issues, although he always retained an honorary Avenger status.

In the MCU, it seems pretty clear that they've bumped that up to "The Big Four," so I still expect to see Hulk as part of the team for many episodes to come.

[terry78]

Hulk is there when he wants to be, basically.

[Lorus]

Wait, if racially diverse is the extreme... what's the medium? :funny:

You're initial post decried a lack of diversity for being people with identical characteristics/jobs etc providing no conflict or variation. Something which nobody was suggesting and indeed isn't seen in the not particularly diverse Avengers film consisting of five white men and a white woman. Then you immediately stepped to ethnic diversity as being a solution without regarding the situation in which a non culturally diverse cast can provide suitable variation in terms of storytelling. Surely you can see how I consider that disingenuous when presenting my argument?

The only reason I think it extends naturally is because that's what I see time and time again. Look at the X-Men or Avengers. Or any big popular bit of entertainment set in the modern day. Lots of diversity, but the Matrix isn't *about* cultural differences, any more than a story where people from different jobs work together is about their differences, but *all* differences make the story deeper and better.

I haven't seen the Matrix in a while so I can't comment too much on the specifics of it but does Morpheus being black play into the story or theme in any way? Would the film suffer had a white actor played him? See, if you're basic premise is that the Avengers' story is 'deeper and better' because Samuel L Jackson played Fury rather than a white man , I'm afraid I cannot see the argument. Can you explain why in another way perhaps?

Now what you're saying is true for the opposite, stories that are about cultural differences and inequality are often nearly all white or all black (or all whatever ethnicity it's about), because that fits the story, which is about exclusion. Mad Men. Roots. Inclusion story -> Inclusion characters. Exclusion story -> Exclusion characters.

You've misinterpreted what I've written. I didn't say that stories about cultural differences or inequality are more ethnically diverse, but that race and gender contribute more heavily to the story. In Mad Men, Don Draper being a white man is a very important to the story and couldn't being changed without altering the story in a significant way. Walter White could well be changed to a black man though, without manipulating the story or themes of Breaking Bad at all.

On your example, we're not talking about starring roles, we're talking about inclusion as heroes. Rhodey being included, as an equal superhero no less is an example of diversity enhancing a story. You have two guys, good friends, different as night and day - on top of that, one of them is black and one is white, making them even more different. See how subtle that is? Then they both end up being armored heroes fighting back to back in different colored suits with different weapons. Its a simple little touch that adds a thousand nuances to the story, which is not about race. Black Fury does this same thing to an even higher level with even more nuances.

You've manipulated my example to the point where it's not been addressed to the degree I would have intended. I'll rephrase. I'm writing an Avengers story, an important parallel subplot is based on redemption and I need to include an Iron Man. I could use Rhodey, but Tony fits better for the story being told. If I were told to use both then now I'd have to find a way to make Rhodey's role fit whatever structure I've planned whether he's the best fit or not. My argument is entirely based around having the option to choose the best character for the job based on whatever story is being told. Race/gender often won't come into that unless, as aforementioned the story is directly considering these topics. To swing back to my initial statement, I want Whedon to be able to choose the character that naturally fits into the puzzle, rather than be forced to build the puzzle around a mandated need for whatever is arbitrarily considered 'acceptable' diversity.

Now, what is your basis for thinking differences in ethnicity and gender are less nuanced or complex than differences in jobs and clothing?

In a nutshell, they are genetically pre-determined characteristics that are shared identically between millions of people and aren't subject to change. It's entirely cosmetic. In real life, perhaps a person is defined more tangibly by their race/gender but in the context of fictional characters designed to turn together as gears in a larger machine, it's not as frequently relevant because the purpose they serve is twinned to whatever characteristic has suited them to the story. I refer back to Fury in the Avengers because I can make him white, hispanic, gay, a woman, whatever and not alter the character's role in the story. I couldn't change his personality or characterisation without re-writing the script, hence those things are more important.

[Chewy]

In the MCU, it seems pretty clear that they've bumped that up to "The Big Four," so I still expect to see Hulk as part of the team for many episodes to come.
They're making it so in the comics now, too

The RuffaHulk "accepted his curse, tries to aim it" persona is actually a pretty great fit for the Avengers, imo.

[DrCosmic]

You're initial post decried a lack of diversity for being people with identical characteristics/jobs etc providing no conflict or variation. Something which nobody was suggesting and indeed isn't seen in the not particularly diverse Avengers film consisting of five white men and a white woman. Then you immediately stepped to ethnic diversity as being a solution without regarding the situation in which a non culturally diverse cast can provide suitable variation in terms of storytelling. Surely you can see how I consider that disingenuous when presenting my argument?

I can't understand your POV on my statement. I was repetitively explicit that all diversity serves the same purpose, as opposed to proposing ethnic diversity is a solution that other diversity is not.

I haven't seen the Matrix in a while so I can't comment too much on the specifics of it but does Morpheus being black play into the story or theme in any way? Would the film suffer had a white actor played him? See, if you're basic premise is that the Avengers' story is 'deeper and better' because Samuel L Jackson played Fury rather than a white man , I'm afraid I cannot see the argument. Can you explain why in another way perhaps?Morpheus and Fury, interestingly enough, are the same archetype, the mysterious man in black, an authority who knows more than he's telling, who does bad things for good reasons, and tells the hero(es) what to do but will not allow himself to be questioned. These masters of mystery are often literally dressed in black as well. In a simple chromatic way, a darker skinned person lends to that mystique.

Going further, the perceived differences between blacks and whites can make a black character seem even more inscrutible. Then going further, with the association of black people with criminality, from news and sketch comedies and the like, which drives home the man in black archetype even further, as they are doing bad things. Here, race enhances the story. And then going further, the differences between he and Captain America, and he and Stark are even more dramatic because of their skin color difference, further adding to the contrast, as much as their wardrobe differences.

You've misinterpreted what I've written. I didn't say that stories about cultural differences or inequality are more ethnically diverse, but that race and gender contribute more heavily to the story. In Mad Men, Don Draper being a white man is a very important to the story and couldn't being changed without altering the story in a significant way. Walter White could well be changed to a black man though, without manipulating the story or themes of Breaking Bad at all.You said it usually happens in stories about inequality, but *every* story is about inequality of some sort, and different types of inequality can help tell the story about the type of inequality that is being talked about.

You've manipulated my example to the point where it's not been addressed to the degree I would have intended. I'll rephrase. I'm writing an Avengers story, an important parallel subplot is based on redemption and I need to include an Iron Man. I could use Rhodey, but Tony fits better for the story being told. If I were told to use both then now I'd have to find a way to make Rhodey's role fit whatever structure I've planned whether he's the best fit or not. My argument is entirely based around having the option to choose the best character for the job based on whatever story is being told. Race/gender often won't come into that unless, as aforementioned the story is directly considering these topics. To swing back to my initial statement, I want Whedon to be able to choose the character that naturally fits into the puzzle, rather than be forced to build the puzzle around a mandated need for whatever is arbitrarily considered 'acceptable' diversity.I'm not sure how to decode this one, so the best I can say is: If you're writing an Avengers story picking one character at a time, you're not writing an Avengers story, you're writing a bunch of solo movies and hoping they happen to come together into something awesome.

In a nutshell, they are genetically pre-determined characteristics that are shared identically between millions of people and aren't subject to change. It's entirely cosmetic. In real life, perhaps a person is defined more tangibly by their race/gender but in the context of fictional characters designed to turn together as gears in a larger machine, it's not as frequently relevant because the purpose they serve is twinned to whatever characteristic has suited them to the story. I refer back to Fury in the Avengers because I can make him white, hispanic, gay, a woman, whatever and not alter the character's role in the story. I couldn't change his personality or characterisation without re-writing the script, hence those things are more important.Ah, but race and gender are more than that because they come with so many perceptions and expectations - so much emotional and social baggage and commentary. By playing with these stereotypes you can say more than you're saying and actually connect with people's real lives.

I really don't care to see Luke Cage. Black Panther could be good, but he has no powers for us to be like "wow." Not much thought is put into creating black heroes. They're there more so for the diversity than actually having something to do.

Um... BP has no powers in the same way that Tony Stark has no powers. Sometimes in the exact same way. Of the comics I've read, a lot of thought has been put into BP, and his role on the team. What comics have you read where he felt like a token?

I think LC has plenty to do regardless of his race, from having a kid with Bendis' fave to leading the New Avengers. Not my fave character either, but it's not like in the 70s when he was just a blaxploitation character. Nowadays he's doing more than most heroes.

[I'm Venom]

Um... BP has no powers in the same way that Tony Stark has no powers. Sometimes in the exact same way. Of the comics I've read, a lot of thought has been put into BP, and his role on the team. What comics have you read where he felt like a token?

I think LC has plenty to do regardless of his race, from having a kid with Bendis' fave to leading the New Avengers. Not my fave character either, but it's not like in the 70s when he was just a blaxploitation character. Nowadays he's doing more than most heroes.

I've never cared for Black Panther and can't really see the point of the character being in an Avengers film, as I can't think of any story he could be a part of that I'd care to see. I just don't feel he'd work alongside the others on the big screen without having to take Captain America out of the story. Why would you need Captain America on your team when you have someone who's more athletic, but also comes with genius?

[Spider-Vader]

You obviously don't understand Cap's character then. He's THE leader, no one could even imagine to rally the troops like Cap can. Cap also has a spirit unlike any other, there's a reason why he was the last one standing against Thanos.

[cherokeesam]

You obviously don't understand Cap's character then. He's THE leader, no one could even imagine to rally the troops like Cap can. Cap also has a spirit unlike any other, there's a reason why he was the last one standing against Thanos.

Cap also carries a big honkin' Frisbee. :oldrazz:

And yeah, in addition to Cap being (most often, by a large margin) the de facto leader of the Avengers, his skill set and fighting style are very different from BP's. Cap is a rugged two-fisted pulp hero whose basic strategy usually boils down to: bash in the front door and come in throwing punches. T'challa, conversely, is a Batman-type who relies more on stealth and strategy.

[I'm Venom]

You obviously don't understand Cap's character then. He's THE leader, no one could even imagine to rally the troops like Cap can. Cap also has a spirit unlike any other, there's a reason why he was the last one standing against Thanos.

You obviously didn't read my post.

[Hawkingbird]

. Black Widow adds a female presence. Hawkeye is unnecessary and could drop from the roster at any point.


:yay:
:yay:
:yay:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_meh4n7qPmY1rg0a2ro1_500.gif


1. Black Widow is amazing. "Female presence" my butt. She was the one that ultimately defeated Loki.
2.Hawkeye shot the arrow to defeat him. And he is amazing. Because he is Hawkeye.

[DrCosmic]

I've never cared for Black Panther and can't really see the point of the character being in an Avengers film, as I can't think of any story he could be a part of that I'd care to see. I just don't feel he'd work alongside the others on the big screen without having to take Captain America out of the story. Why would you need Captain America on your team when you have someone who's more athletic, but also comes with genius?

I understand you don't like the character and you feel a certain way, and can't think of any way that any black characters can be awesome, but the reality is that Cap's abilities are equally redundant with BW and Hawkeye, and BP is no closer to replacing him than they are.

You don't care for black characters. That's how you feel, okay. Trying to justify it with remarkably uninformed and somewhat silly objections serves no purpose.

[I'm Venom]

I understand you don't like the character and you feel a certain way, and can't think of any way that any black characters can be awesome, but the reality is that Cap's abilities are equally redundant with BW and Hawkeye, and BP is no closer to replacing him than they are.

You don't care for black characters. That's how you feel, okay. Trying to justify it with remarkably uninformed and somewhat silly objections serves no purpose.

Nothing about what Black Panther does is particularly visually interesting. To me, a power is more exciting than Batman on speed. T'Challa has two things: brains and hand to hand. Neither of which are lacking in the cast, he can't do anything that anyone else on the team couldn't do as well but speed up. Once characters get replaced, sure, bring him in for all I care (a brilliant candidate for a replacement for Black Widow), but a guy whose powers are moving fast and running up walls doesn't quite bring that factor that audiences will expect from a sequel.

[Chewy]

I think we can all agree that D-Man would be the best addition to the Avengers 2 roster

[DrCosmic]

Nothing about what Black Panther does is particularly visually interesting. To me, a power is more exciting than Batman on speed. T'Challa has two things: brains and hand to hand. Neither of which are lacking in the cast, he can't do anything that anyone else on the team couldn't do as well but speed up. Once characters get replaced, sure, bring him in for all I care (a brilliant candidate for a replacement for Black Widow), but a guy whose powers are moving fast and running up walls doesn't quite bring that factor that audiences will expect from a sequel.

It doesn't sound like you actually know what BP does. That's understandable, I'm not familiar with characters I don't care for either. Regardless, none of the Avengers do anything someone else on the team can't do as well.

I think we can all agree that D-Man would be the best addition to the Avengers 2 roster

As long as Sentry's in there, they can add whoever else they like. :o

[cherokeesam]

Nothing about what Black Panther does is particularly visually interesting. To me, a power is more exciting than Batman on speed. T'Challa has two things: brains and hand to hand. Neither of which are lacking in the cast, he can't do anything that anyone else on the team couldn't do as well but speed up. Once characters get replaced, sure, bring him in for all I care (a brilliant candidate for a replacement for Black Widow), but a guy whose powers are moving fast and running up walls doesn't quite bring that factor that audiences will expect from a sequel.

....do you actually read comic books, sir? :huh:

Or at least take a quick glance through Wikipedia or something. Your lack of knowledge of the Avengers is becoming increasingly astounding.

[jaqua99]

....do you actually read comic books, sir? :huh:

Or at least take a quick glance through Wikipedia or something. Your lack of knowledge of the Avengers is becoming increasingly astounding.

lol this guy.

[Joeyjojo72]

Yeah just wow to that post.

[I'm Venom]

....do you actually read comic books, sir? :huh:

Or at least take a quick glance through Wikipedia or something. Your lack of knowledge of the Avengers is becoming increasingly astounding.

No offense, but I think you're daft. Did you go to school at all? I seriously doubt it.

It doesn't sound like you actually know what BP does. That's understandable, I'm not familiar with characters I don't care for either. Regardless, none of the Avengers do anything someone else on the team can't do as well.

Bottom line is Black Panther would do nothing to help the team, but whatever.

[cherokeesam]

No offense, but I think you're daft. Did you go to school at all? I seriously doubt it.

Graduated magna from USC in '87 with degrees in English Lit and European History, thanks for asking.

Bottom line is Black Panther would do nothing to help the team, but whatever.

Hey, look what Wiki can teach you about Black Panther! :)


The title "Black Panther" is a rank of office, chieftain of the Wakandan Panther Clan. As chieftain, the Panther is entitled to eat a special heart-shaped herb which, in addition to his mystical connection with the Wakandan Panther god, grants him superhumanly acute senses and increases his strength, speed, stamina, and agility to the peak of human development. He has since lost this connection and forged a new one with another unknown Panther deity, granting him augmented physical attributes as well as a resistance to magic. His senses are so powerful that he can pick up a prey's scent and memorize tens of thousands of individual ones. Following his war with Doom, T'challa loses his enhanced abilities only to once again establish a connection with the Panther God.

As king of Wakanda, the Panther has access to a vast collection of magical artifacts, advanced Wakandan technological and military hardware, as well as the support of his nation's wide array of scientists, warriors, and mystics. The Wakandan military has been described as one of the most powerful on Earth. His attire is the sacred vibranium costume of the Wakandan Panther Cult.

He is a skilled hunter, tracker, strategist, politician, inventor, and scientist —he has a Ph.D. degree in physics from Oxford University. Considered one of the eight smartest people on the planet, he is a genius in physics and advanced technology, and is a brilliant inventor. He also has been granted the knowledge of every past Black Panther.

T'Challa is a rigorously trained gymnast and acrobat, showing mastery in various African martial arts as well as contemporary ones and fighting styles that belong to no known disciplines.
In Volume 3, writer Christopher Priest expanded the Panther's day-to-day arsenal to include equipment such as an "energy dagger", a vibranium-weave suit, and a portable supercomputer, the "Kimoyo card." In Volume 4, writer Reginald Hudlin introduced such specialized equipment as "thrice-blessed armor" and "light armor" for specific tasks, and for a short while outfitted him with the Ebony Blade of the Black Knight.


Now, don't you feel better learning that Black Panther's powers aren't "moving fast and running up walls?"

[xeno000]

Has anyone ever been voted out of a thread here for lack of knowledge of the subject matter? Because if not we have our first candidate.

[I'm Venom]

Graduated magna from USC in '87 with degrees in English Lit and European History, thanks for asking.

Hey, look what Wiki can teach you about Black Panther! :)

Now, don't you feel better learning that Black Panther's powers aren't "moving fast and running up walls?"

I don't understand the point of this post.

[CoolCadaver49]

1. Black Widow is amazing. "Female presence" my butt. She was the one that ultimately defeated Loki.

Why are those two things mutually exclusive to you? Black Widow was 7 kinds of awesome in The Avengers. Maybe even my favorite. She also added a female presence to the team. Don't see how you can say that she was the one to ultimately defeat Loki though. It seems like everyone on the team had a hand in that.


2.Hawkeye shot the arrow to defeat him. And he is amazing. Because he is Hawkeye.

Boo. Hawkeye sux... :o

Seriously, there was no room to give him anything in The Avengers. So I'm kinda worried if they add new members for Avengers 2. Will Hawkeye get the short straw again in favor of the new hero(es)? Will they cut him from the team completely? The only reason that even remotely care if they mishandle Hawkeye is because Jeremy Renner is playing him.

Ah, well. As long as Scarlett stays on as Black Widow, I'm all set.

[cherokeesam]

I don't understand the point of this post.

You clearly don't understand a lot of things about this thread.

Anyhow........
so yeah: is the train back on track yet? :huh:

[Chewy]

Has anyone ever been voted out of a thread here for lack of knowledge of the subject matter? Because if not we have our first candidate.
A certain poster was voted out of the Avengers News thread a few times but he kept coming back :hehe:

[xeno000]

A certain poster was voted out of the Avengers News thread a few times but he kept coming back :hehe:


Yeah, I kinda remember that guy. Unfortunately, I think we've found his successor. :doh:

[Hawkingbird]

I think if Black Panther were there in the first one, it would have been a much shorter film :o he would have quietly sussed and bested Loki.

[I'm Venom]

You clearly don't understand a lot of things about this thread.

Anyhow........
so yeah: is the train back on track yet? :huh:

So, what part of my post indicated that I don't understand a lot of things? My point was more about you not having any idea what you're talking about.

[Hawkingbird]

Let's keep the peace here people, Venom is entitled to his opinion. It's an opinion, there's no right or wrong :o

[xeno000]

Let's keep the peace here people, Venom is entitled to his opinion. It's an opinion, there's no right or wrong :o


Except Venom claimed that the Black Panther's powers are "moving fast and running up walls," which everyone but him knows is wrong. Then when cherokeesam kindly tried to enlighten him he responded with nonsensical insults.

[DrCosmic]

I think if Black Panther were there in the first one, it would have been a much shorter film :o he would have quietly sussed and bested Loki.

Man I love that guy. That's kinda how they did him on EMH. I'd love to see tons of him, but he kinda only needs twelve minutes of screen time to shine.

"Alright, that's done, so how do we find Lok-"
"I found him seven minutes ago. I did not want to interrupt your... bonding."

I'm Venom, for all his shenanigans, does bring up a good point, time does need to be taken to give Black Panther something to do. Most notably, I think his sensory abilities are far beyond what anyone else is working with, compounded with the spiritual aspect, he really is the ideal guy to find the problem, and indeed, that's how they used him in AvX in the comics... it turned out the problem was Tony. :)

I also think that a three way science conversation could be really interesting, especially if there's a lot of disagreement involved. It'd make all three look incredibly intelligent if they were winning each other to each other's side back and forth, developing a brilliant idea in the course of 45 seconds.

Also, he's *the* stealth character. Widow can be stealthy in comics, but in the movies she's a disguise character. BP would basically come off like he has a shadow teleport. Could be awesome.

But alas, not in Avengers 2. It looks like we'll have Falcon and some female heroine.

Can anyone give me any reason Falcon is awesome?

[Chewy]

Can anyone give me any reason Falcon is awesome?
He's being played by Anthony Mackie :oldrazz:

[DrCosmic]

Argh! See... that. They're going to make him badarse, he'll be flying and zipping around, spinning, cutting up people with razor sharp wings and all this stuff and he'll land and pose and stuff'll be all mangled behind him as he looks over his shoulder like "And what?"

And I'll be like "... yeah... but he's still The Falcon though." :/

[Chewy]

Every character starts somewhere. If it takes Anthony Mackie to finally make Falcon cool, so be it

[Hawkingbird]

Argh! See... that. They're going to make him badarse, he'll be flying and zipping around, spinning, cutting up people with razor sharp wings and all this stuff and he'll land and pose and stuff'll be all mangled behind him as he looks over his shoulder like "And what?"

And I'll be like "... yeah... but he's still The Falcon though." :/

I love Falcon, always thought he was underated. Meaning I was a very happy person when I heard he's going to be in CA2.

[xeno000]

Argh! See... that. They're going to make him badarse, he'll be flying and zipping around, spinning, cutting up people with razor sharp wings and all this stuff and he'll land and pose and stuff'll be all mangled behind him as he looks over his shoulder like "And what?"

And I'll be like "... yeah... but he's still The Falcon though." :/


Bet you'd think Falcon is a badass if he ordered every bird within 20 miles to crap on your car. Can any other Avenger do that? No, they can't. :funny: