Batman Returns fans united

[Kevin Roegele]

http://www.defenderofgotham.net/images/movieimages/batmanreturns/b1.jpg

Batman Returns is a masterpiece. Many, many people misunderstand it. You can't simply look at it as a typical superhero action adventure. Here are some reviews I've found on the web which give some insight:

tedg (tedg@alum.mit.edu)

What Burton brings to the table is a quirky design sensibility. All other elements of his films are conventional Hollywoodisms. But when he hits a sweet spot with that situational and production design, it works. At least it works as a voyage to another planet.

His first Batman film was a disaster in this respect: it visually lacked both imagination and control. He knew he screwed up, and this time he fixes nearly everything that was broken the first time around. He still has that dead melodramatic third act, but everything else is great.

The city bears some similarities to the Gotham of the first, but he lives in this one. It has a perverted life, rather than the carcass of the first. He literally places his camera among architectural elements of the city this time. The batcave is completely reinvented to be more jagged, dark and schizophrenic. The contrasting ice cave really does contrast: it has light and color and movement and life of a twisted sort. The chemical factory and cathedral of the first was just a set of large props.

Someone paid attention: the `world' of the city is blunt industrial, an anti `Metropolis,' largely broken. Michelle's apartment is modeled after the building in Welle's Kafka movie I think. (You can visit that building today.) The cave has organic roughness, a completely different world altogether. This craftily sets the `two-world' theme of Bruce's mind in which we presume this all happens. But the clever introduction of a third design consciousness is what makes this really fly.

The ice cave is part sewer and part 1964 New York World's Fair. The structural elements here are so radically different in conception that I can only think that three different talents created these three architectural notions. (Incidentally, we saw these structural elements revived in the recent interiors of the ice cave in `Die Another Day.') Keaton does change character depending on the forces of the surrounding built space. This is a fantasy that perhaps only an architect could appreciate: a visual drama of dual forces within the mind.

Even Elfman's honking is better. The `girl' in this one participates in the split world dynamics as well. Very clever writing, this. Michelle's architecture is what she wears, which is another element of the genius in the art design. The problem is that something happened -- I do not know what -- and the effect was messed up at the end when they changed the costume all around. This was in the days when Michelle still had something to offer, and because I have hit her hard on some other films, have to note some informed work here. Most of the body acting is by doubles of course, but her face shots in costume use a knowing device: in `real' life, she acts with her eyes and as Catwoman, she acts with her mouth.

That mouth is borrowed from Helena Bonham-Carter. (In fact, when a film actress makes something work, many lessor actresses appropriate it. Its part of the game, and one can have some fun with Michelle's later films guessing who she's imitating.)

DeVito is one of our most intelligent actors. Not as an actor, but in his understanding of reflexive notions in humor: his `Momma' was based on Nabokov! As with the Joker before, he's just a disgusting prop here.

Esther Cobblepot is a redhead.

----------------------------------

Maurice van Turnhout (sirmaurice@hotmail.com)

A more than worthy sequel, that elaborates on the themes and visuals motifs of the first movie. Gotham City is besieged by the Red Triangle Circus Gang, until the hideously deformed, disowned Penguin (Danny DeVito) emerges from the sewers to restore order. Batman (Michael Keaton) discovers that Penguin is actually the leader of the gang, and that he's conspiring with evil tycoon Max Shreck (Christopher Walken) in a bid for regional power. And there's also a sultry, leather-clad lady called Cat Woman (Michelle Pfeiffer), who might be a friend or a deadly foe to Batman.

Batman Returns performs 1920s German Expressionism in the same way German Expressionism used to perform high art: Penguin is a look-a-like of Dr. Caligari, Shreck is named after the lead actor of Nosferatu: Eine Symphonie des Grauens, and the shadows and settings just ooze the atmosphere of Gothic Romanticism. All is captured in a vivid post-classical camera style, with director Tim Burton also liberally employing Surrealist motifs, to create a surprisingly edgy horror fairytale. Beneath the deceptively sugarcoated backdrop of Christmas, 1940s Americana and childhood dreams, lies the palpable lure of the dark side: the fracturing of identities, kinky sexual phantasies and a vision of corrupt corporate power structures. When Penguin mentions that `this is all just a bad dream', we're not entirely sure what he means: is the false safety of the surface the nightmare, or what lies beneath it? The recurring motif of bars and cages is a double-edged knife: they may represent the threats of the netherworld, but they also stand for a society that has consciously locked itself up in a world of make-believe.

Keaton still cuts a sharp figure in the title role, although the complex villains, etched like grotesque gargoyles, again take center spot - Batman is hardly in the first half at all. DeVito's blackly comic Penguin is a literate character, a man perceived as a monster, struggling for respectability while at the same time possessing a weakness for raw fish. He represents the need for respect, for acknowledgment of his humanity: an Elephant Man or Phantom of the Opera let loose in the city zoo of Gotham. It's obvious that not only Batman but also director Burton himself can relate to this outsider; Penguin even has a touching death scene, akin to Edward Scissorhands. Despite him being a revenge-minded super-villain, the ending feels more like a tragic conclusion than a traditional showdown between good and evil. Pfeiffer is mesmerizing as she moves from cute wallflower bullied by men (albeit with a sadistic streak) to a sexually `liberated' creature of the night. In two fun scenes, she demolishes her own pink doll's house, and beheads a window dummy with her SM whip. Walken exudes cool menace as Shreck, who in the end turns out to be using Penguin and emerges as the true manipulator. These four leading characters all mirror each other in some way, meeting in the end at a masked ball - where Shreck, the `respected monster`, ironically is the only one to wear a mask.

Danny Elfman's brilliant musical score uses choirs, circus tunes, and Wagnerian operatics to full melodramatic effect, and Bo Welch's production design gives Anton Furst a run for his money. Welch even gets the smallest details right: the Penguin campaign posters for instance, are obviously inspired by Nazi poster art; `They've lost faith in old symbols,' the Penguin claims, referring to Batman's attempts at upholding the law. Is Burton, like the Expressionists, showing an America ready to embrace Fascism or anarchism, or is he merely trying to entertain? Anyway, Batman Returns is a cinematic spectacle as far removed from the daft 1960s television series as possible.

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Ethan Hunt (missionimpossibe@excite.com)

This film noir has great imagery, psychological depth and funny, sad and outright dark black quotes plus brilliant, gothically deranged visuals. Also, four other characters represent the character 'Batman' in the movie. Max Shreck-the millionaire businessman, Penguin-the orphaned outsider, Catwoman-the costumed vigilante, and Bruce Wayne-the awkward, concealed identity of Batman, though his exact opposite, and the characters are all written to hint at it in the film, but it won't hit you over the head with it.

The characters that are alive at the end of the film speak it's main character's current mental health state. The films plot concerns a character abandoned, literally thrown away in his childhood because of being born with his irregular hands causing him to look like a Penguin. Out of what he sees as vengeful justice, he becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, gradually assuming the role of the horrible monster that he always looked like.

He is reluctantly accepted when he returns to society and is given another chance. He decides somewhere along the way that he does not want to return to this city for some reason (or was it planned all along, while looking at the record list when he was supposedly searching for his human name, did he write down the first born sons of Gotham? Later Catwoman remarks that he already has an 'enemy list' before staying long in Gotham).

He 'forgives' his parents but is secretly blaming the city for his woes. Penguin tries to live there but he cannot fully, he finds his sense of belonging seemed like an illusion (like most Tim Burton films portray), he then, self-destructively gives up, betrays their trust and bitterly attempts to murder the innocent before his mayoral bid can be won. Gotham City represents a lot of evil in this picture, Batman is a brooding, anti-hero and he's one of the only good people in the town -in film noir there are no heroes, this is the essence of Gotham. There's a consistent motif of having the Penguin character see everything he can't have through bars, if you look you'll find him eyeing his parents (as the camera) behind bars and Catwoman (through the bird cage) and later after she rejects him, etc. yet he never enters a jail cell.

Penguin reminds me of an evil man from 'Chitty Chitty Bang Bang', he later wants to drown infants.

When the actress portraying Catwoman/Selina Kyle is making the cat costume, she opens a drawer with about four different colored scissors, on Edward Scissorhands, Burton explained having scissors in his films "is about, trying to touch someone, and not being able to." That was established, as one of Catwoman's many problems, no real love life. We know why she destroys the Shreck building, because he is guilty of crimes and she cannot prove it, she sees this as revenge, like Penguin does. In 'Batman Returns' there are no situations that have a black or white answer, like film noir. Burton also said that dressing up changes every character. I recently saw this on cable today and afterwards there was a special on Batman Returns, which is where I am getting Tim Burton's comments.

As well look at how Burton depicts colorfully clothed overly happy people as stupid, fake and annoying, without really changing much of anything about people we know, this harsh contrast is obvious right before the Penguin agrees to be mayor. Max Shreck is a murderous businessman but in the ballroom scene he shows that even he loves his child, unlike Penguin's parents, proving he does not deserve to die.

The star character hardly gets shown as often as the others do (therefore, so the villains represent Batman?). The song 'Super Freak' is in this movie as an instrumental during the masked ball, I think that must say something about Batman! At the end with when the car stops, a sign reads 'Super Drug'. It all is clothed a very unreal, hazy, dreamlike quality. The image at the cemetery where the Penguin looks down at the ground with a gravestone cross above him and the first time we see Bruce, staring out the window reflecting the bat signal are my favourite parts. In the sewer, close to the finish,

Batman/Bruce admits with Penguin, Shreck, and Catwoman there, that he is Bruce Wayne, and that 'we're the same, split right down the center'. He rips off his mask, and at that moment a thread in Catwoman's mask breaks open to reveal her blond hair. With a sad, though satisfying Christmas-time end to it all, the movie didn't make as much money as I thought it did. Still, I think it's genius and is one of my favorite films.

[Godzilla]

Originally posted by Kevin Roegele

Batman Returns is a masterpiece. Many, many people misunderstand it.

All I understood was that it was pretty much insane from begining to end. And Catwoman wouldn't shutup!:mad:

But to each his own.:)

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally posted by Godzilla
All I understood was that it was pretty much insane from begining to end. And Catwoman wouldn't shutup!:mad:

But to each his own.:)

Hmmm...you're the guy who LIKES Batman & Robin, aren't you? ;)

[aaronw]

I enjoyed Batman Returns as much as I enjoyed the first one. I thought making the Penguin that insane was great,..i mean that entire scene where talks about drowning all those children was messed up....but i liked it like that. Those missle-strapped penguins where crazy too, i liked them.

[aaronw]

I agree also that there brilliant themes and concepts in play, however, as it was noted in one of the commentaries, there was too much placed on the particular villians, they are all good and evil in own respects, as you can pity them and reproach them in different scenes, this really leaves no room for Batman, Batman/Bruce Wayne should be the most intriguing character in the film, but he isnt. This is perhaps the movies central flaw, so instead of calling it batman returns it should have been "monsters of Gothem"

[Godzilla]

Originally posted by Kevin Roegele
Hmmm...you're the guy who LIKES Batman & Robin, aren't you? ;)

I enjoyed it. I never said it was a great movie. And yes it is still a hell of a lot better than Tim Burton's fantasy world where Zoo's let their penguins roam free in the sewers.:p

[The Joker]

it was alright...it would have been much better though if they had let Burton do what he wanted to with it (Harvey Dent instead of Max Shreck, non mutant Penguin, introduction of Robin, etc...)...this was really the WB's first step in destroying the Bat-Franchise

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally posted by The Joker
it was alright...it would have been much better though if they had let Burton do what he wanted to with it (Harvey Dent instead of Max Shreck, non mutant Penguin, introduction of Robin, etc...)...this was really the WB's first step in destroying the Bat-Franchise

Burton wanted to waste Robin by making him a mechanic in a 10-second cameo. I'm glad Warners stopped him. Also, the 'mutant Penguin' idea was all Burton's, it was Warners who forced him to make the character resemble the classic version by having him dress up like a 1930's aristocrat (note on the Batman Returns DVD/video cover, the Penguin looks far more like the classic Penguin than he ever does in the movie).

[Catman]

Batman Returns is awesome! However, Gabby is right, would have been better with Harvey Dent.

[jaydawg]

Batman Returns was a thousands times better than the orginal.

[Mandrill]

My biggest nitpick with this film is that frickin programable batarang :mad:
It's powerful enough to knock the circus freaks out yet the dog just catches it in its mouth.

[Catman]

Originally posted by Mandrill
My biggest nitpick with this film is that frickin programable batarang :mad:
It's powerful enough to knock the circus freaks out yet the dog just catches it in its mouth.

OMG:rolleyes:

It's called comic relief!

[Catman]

I believe that the main reason why Batman Returns is so misunderstood is because a lot of people tend not to "think" when watching a movie. Batman Returns is the most poetic comic book adapted movie of all-times. Sure it's wacky and crazy but that was done for the comic relief and to entertain the child audience. In addition sell toys. Anyhow, a lot of scenes in the movies are symbolic.

1)Christmas
Christmas is the birthday of Christ. It's a day to rejoice and celebrity the birthday of our lord. Instead Bruce Wayne is depressed and has suffered a major loss. It is a time for him to question his life and decide whether or not to continue as Batman. Think of it as the Last Temptation! When Satan started showing Jesus how his life would be if he were a normal person, Jesus had to decide whether he should continue claiming his the son of God or be crusified. In a way Catwoman was an image to Bruce of how a normal life would be for him. Obviously both Jesus and Batman know there true purpose and the lose of Catwoman makes Batman stronger because his knows he HAS to win the battle with crime. Crime has taken away not only his parents but the woman he loves.

2)Penguin's Colorful Umbrella and the Duck
The Penguin is the monster he has become because he was treated differently since the day he was born. The umbrella represents his innocence and his lost childhood. The Duck is a kiddie ride for him. Think of Michael Jackson! He has a big fair in his house because he has never had the chance to be a child. The same with the Penguin.

3)The Penguins
At the end of the movie when the Penguin dies, the penguins throw him into the water as if burying him. In a way the Penguins understood he was a lost child and the things he did were not his fault.

[jaydawg]

Nice observations Catman but when I read things like what you posted it pisses me off. Do you guys remember when someone looking in the mirror ment just that, someone was looking in the mirror, not their soul... anyone catch my drift?

[Catman]

Originally posted by jaydawg
Nice observations Catman but when I read things like what you posted it pisses me off. Do you guys remember when someone looking in the mirror ment just that, someone was looking in the mirror, not their soul... anyone catch my drift?

There is a little thing called being literal or being figurative. Sometimes looking at a mirror means looking at a mirror. Other times it means looking at your soul.

[jaydawg]

Well yea.. i'm just angered about this cuz they're always makin me do it in school. DAMN YOU AP COMP!!!!

[Catman]

Originally posted by jaydawg
Well yea.. i'm just angered about this cuz they're always makin me do it in school. DAMN YOU AP COMP!!!!

Critical thinking is something you should use when watching a movie or reading a novel. And in school critical thinking helps you a lot in performing better in major tests like the SAT.

[zanos]

Why would you need critical thinking for the SAT? All you have to be is a machine and fill in the correct choices.

[Catman]

Originally posted by zanos
Why would you need critical thinking for the SAT? All you have to be is a machine and fill in the correct choices.

:rolleyes:

[Everyman]

Originally posted by aaronw
I enjoyed Batman Returns as much as I enjoyed the first one. I thought making the Penguin that insane was great,..i mean that entire scene where talks about drowning all those children was messed up....but i liked it like that. Those missle-strapped penguins where crazy too, i liked them.

I liked the penguin too. Their presence in the movie was much more intelligent that people think. The penguins are a metaphor for Cobblepot's nature; birds that cannot fly, therefore "misadapted", and living in a cold, empty and unfriendly world like the mental world Cobblepot lvies in, outcast of the society he paradoxically hates and desires to join.

[aaronw]

Originally posted by Everyman
I liked the penguin too. Their presence in the movie was much more intelligent that people think. The penguins are a metaphor for Cobblepot's nature; birds that cannot fly, therefore "misadapted", and living in a cold, empty and unfriendly world like the mental world Cobblepot lvies in, outcast of the society he paradoxically hates and desires to join.

Well, since Cobblepot was the "Penguin" I guess so. I think you might be over-analyzing however, penguins are birds that can't fly but they are not "misadapted". Penguins are very sophistcated swimmers and manage to survive very well, if it was just a bird that couldn't fly than by natural selection it wouldn't have survived, because burds survive by flying. Penguins simply take to the water instead, the reason it is called a bird is because it's organs and structures are all birdlike. But I can see where you are coming from, but unlike Cobblepot, penguins don't hate other birds yet wish to rejoin them in the air.

[Everyman]

Originally posted by aaronw
Well, since Cobblepot was the "Penguin" I guess so. I think you might be over-analyzing however, penguins are birds that can't fly but they are not "misadapted". Penguins are very sophistcated swimmers and manage to survive very well, if it was just a bird that couldn't fly than by natural selection it wouldn't have survived, because burds survive by flying. Penguins simply take to the water instead, the reason it is called a bird is because it's organs and structures are all birdlike. But I can see where you are coming from, but unlike Cobblepot, penguins don't hate other birds yet wish to rejoin them in the air.

Well, they are misadapted for someone who doesn't understand zoology....;-) No seriously the Penguin says himself that "a penguin is a bird that cannot fly", so I used an element from the movie to understand what the penguins symbolised in it. Of course the penguins are very adapted, resourceful creatures (like Cobblepot), but from an outsider, they are just silly birds that cannot get off the ground, and who look pretty goofy. Like Cobblepot again.

The point is, a lot of Batman Returns bashers have complained that the Penguin was not like in the comics, and that it was useless to change him. I actually think that the changes were pretty good, and that they give a rich significance to the movie. Instead of having a guy who likes birds and looks like a penguin, you have an outcast who identifies with "misunderstood" creatures, birds that cannot fly.

[jaydawg]

Yea that bird can not fly thing was cool. Batman Returns is the thinking mans superhero movie. I really loved it, no matter how bizarre things got. DeVito gave one hell of a performance, way better than Nicholson's Joker. Phiffer was great as always, but i didnt sense that much sexual tention till the end of the movie. Still no matter how much people nitpick at it, Returns will always be my second fav Batfilm, but BF will always be my first.

[aaronw]

Originally posted by Everyman
Well, they are misadapted for someone who doesn't understand zoology....;-) No seriously the Penguin says himself that "a penguin is a bird that cannot fly", so I used an element from the movie to understand what the penguins symbolised in it. Of course the penguins are very adapted, resourceful creatures (like Cobblepot), but from an outsider, they are just silly birds that cannot get off the ground, and who look pretty goofy. Like Cobblepot again.

The point is, a lot of Batman Returns bashers have complained that the Penguin was not like in the comics, and that it was useless to change him. I actually think that the changes were pretty good, and that they give a rich significance to the movie. Instead of having a guy who likes birds and looks like a penguin, you have an outcast who identifies with "misunderstood" creatures, birds that cannot fly.

I totally agree with that Everyman, I think Burton's Penguin is much better than the comic book's version. I'm not trying to simplify the character's complexity, but i was just questioning the penguins as being metaphor of something. basically I just understood that he lived among the penguins for most of his life, that is why they were so dear to him. But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[jaydawg]

Like I said, Batman Returns is the thinking man's comic film.

[Catman]

Originally posted by jaydawg
Like I said, Batman Returns is the thinking man's comic film.

Exactamundo!

[aaronw]

Originally posted by jaydawg
Like I said, Batman Returns is the thinking man's comic film.

I want a Superman film thats more intellectual

[jaydawg]

And I wanted a rated R batman, but wudda gonna do?

[aaronw]

Originally posted by jaydawg
And I wanted a rated R batman, but wudda gonna do?

An R rated Batman would be cool

[jaydawg]

Just imagine killer Croc ripping heads, joker using acid and tommy guns on people, laughing fish destroying peoples minds...ahhhhh bliss.

[SunshineButMoreRain]

From UGO:

This is the one Batman film that came close to the tone of the comic book, and Bob Kane's original character creation, for that matter. Understand this, once and for all: Bruce Wayne is a PSYCHOTIC. He witnessed his PARENTS' MURDER. He dresses up as a BAT. He is not a healthy man. The truly well-done Batman stories are dark, gothic, despairing and nihilistic nightmare yarns, in which mentally ill characters, both good and evil, go to vaudevillian extremes to express their psychoses. They become tragic clowns, all of them, and Tim Burton understood this. This is the Batman movie he wanted to make, with little to no studio interference. This is as close as it's going to get, folks. Cherish it, or you can't call yourself a Batman fan. The only reason this unpleasant, ghoulish film had to pull some of its punches to get a friendly rating is because it's the sequel to the inferior (though still solid) original, which made a kazillion dollars.

[Kevin Roegele]

As perfectly expressed in the original film:

"You're not exactly normal, are you?"
"It's not exactly a normal world, is it?"

[Two-Face]

Originally posted by jaydawg
And I wanted a rated R batman, but wudda gonna do?

WB would never make R Batman movie cos WB are thinking of kids here to make money. That's why WB hired Joel Schumacher.

[Assassin32]

Originally posted by jaydawg
Just imagine killer Croc ripping heads, joker using acid and tommy guns on people, laughing fish destroying peoples minds...ahhhhh bliss.

And Batarangs getting stuck in people's eyes! HELL YEAH!

[Ruined Angel]

An R rated Batman movie would rock, but it'll never happened with WB.

[Catman]

We must unite once more.

[TheSpyAssassin]

I love Batman Returns more than any other Batman film ever made. I just loved how character drvien these characters are in the story. I jsut love how there can be a whole psychological study done on Penguin and Catwoman. This movie is what the batman comic books are and really takes the subject matter seriously. Sure the only thing not soo dark was the penguins with rocket launchers, but hey! thats true comic book spirit right there. People who dont read the comic are always getting that Batman stories, etc arent dark or tragic enough but they should realy look at Batman Retunrs and understand what we see in the charcetrs and the comic. Batman Returns is truly the bsaic groundwork of what we read and hope for in a Batman story. I love how dark and artistic this film is.

[Batman]

Batman Returns is a masterpiece? Your trying to be funny right?:D

[Mylord]

I enjoyed it. I never said it was a great movie. And yes it is still a hell of a lot better than Tim Burton's fantasy world where Zoo's let their penguins roam free in the sewers.
Oh man what a stupid idiot write that OMG i don't know that in the world live so stupid and childish ****ers like that one!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[Carmine Falcone]

batman returns is my favorite batman movie. :up: Danny DeVito did a fantastic jo as the penguin, imo the batsuit was better then the one from '89.

:up:

[skruloos]

I basically see Returns as a really great Elseworld's title. As anyone whose ever read my posts will know, I am fully appreciative of a director who puts their own personal stamp on a movie and that it is up to the audience to see if they like it or not. I'm simply not that big of a fan of Tim Burton's work and I think that Returns suffers a bit from his excesses. I don't like the campy freakish nature of the Penguin. And I don't like the fact that Batman/Bruce Wayne once again takes a back seat to the villains. Now, of course, this doesn't make it a bad movie, just not a Batman film that I prefer to see.

That being said, it is a very poetic and artfully produced film that does some very gutsy takes on the characters, most of which I can appreciate in the context of it being Burton's Batworld or simply just as the aforementioned Elseworld's title.

[Catman]

There's been so many versions of Batman in the comics that it's kind of silly calling Burton's film an elseworld. It's simply another version of the character. Just like Chris Nolan film which has a "realistic" approach to the character.

[Catman]

When you have a character around for 60 years you're gonna have to change stuff to keep it fresh. If you look at Batman's 60+ years in the comics there have been several different versions of him. The movies aren't that different. The 1940s serials were the "racist" version of Batman. The Adam West version were the campy version of Batman. The Burton films were the "artistic...regular guy" version of Batman. The Schumacher version of Batman was the gay one and now the Nolan version is the realistic one.

[The Emperor]

In my opinion, the films got worse as they went on...

[ice_018]

I enjoyed this movie VERY much... nuff said
I hope for a special edition dvd in a near future

[Catman]

It's gonna be released anytime soon. Tim Burton already confirmed this. So far the only thing we know is that there's Tim Burton and Danny Elfman commentary track on both Batman movies.

[Kevin Roegele]

I really, really hope there are deleted scenes.

[Bruce_Wayne29]

It's a masterpiece about duality.

[RatWings]

Yes, the main concept was duality. Because most humans have battles with duality about how they really are, not to the extent of Batman and Catwoman but you get the point. Hopefully we too will see a Batman Returns SE dvd!!!

[Catman]

A Batman Returns SE DVD will be released. Tim Burton already confirmed this.

[KenK]

There's been so many versions of Batman in the comics that it's kind of silly calling Burton's film an elseworld. It's simply another version of the character. Just like Chris Nolan film which has a "realistic" approach to the character.

Exactly! I hate it when people talk about Burton's Batman films and act like they're drastic revisions of the character, compared to what Nolan is doing. Both are equally faithful to the comic.

I enjoy Batman Returns immensely. The characters are very well-fleshed out, and I like what Burton did with Catwoman. The relationship between her and Batman is very interesting and true to the comics, in terms of the balancing of antagonism and attraction. It's very poetic. As for Penguin, I don't think it would have been enough for him to just be a fat, squaty guy with a long nose. There had to be more to his character, and I think that's why Burton went for the whole 'mutant' angle. One of my favorite lines is when he says to Batman, 'You're just mad because I'm a genuine freak, and you have to wear a mask'. And Batman replies, 'you might be right.' It speaks volumes about Batman's relationship to the villains he fights, what they represent in their unchangable outward appearance, as opposed to Batman, who has to change his outward appearance every night to be what he feels he truly is.

Imagine if Two-Face had been treated properly and was a primary villain in a film. It would have been the ultimate psycho-drama!

[Spider-Fan]

I thought this was nearly as good as the original. I felt very sorry for Oswald in the movie. I only wish Burton had continued the franchise rather than "he who shall not be named".

[AmazinUncleBen]

I thought this was nearly as good as the original. I felt very sorry for Oswald in the movie. I only wish Burton had continued the franchise rather than "he who shall not be named".


Too True.

[Mylord]

BR rules all the way. It's best movie with comic book hero and one of most interesing and original in today's cinema.

[Catman]

bumping for Bateman.

[BatmanRules33]

BR rules all the way. It's best movie with comic book hero and one of most interesing and original in today's cinema.

all thanks too tim burton. hes a genious, what can ya say. returns is like the first matrix in a way. and thank you (forget who started this thread) for making a thread like this. wow, imlearning new stuff about this film everyday, like its new or something! great read, makes me wish burton made a third movie. and i didnt read half these posts cuz i dont want to read ppls ass negative comments, BR was great so damn, deal with it. i think i read that someone liked B$R over BR............thats scary:confused: :(

[Catman]

read the negative comments as well. Be a little open minded and perhaps debate those folks. Well, debate the ones who are still around.

[Guason]

read the negative comments as well. Be a little open minded and perhaps debate those folks. Well, debate the ones who are still around.
That`s what we should always do, but in the other hand is it really worth reading an opinion like Mister Lennon`s or someone who sees nothing wrong?

[Bat Attack]

all thanks too tim burton. hes a genious, what can ya say. returns is like the first matrix in a way. and thank you (forget who started this thread) for making a thread like this. wow, imlearning new stuff about this film everyday, like its new or something! great read, makes me wish burton made a third movie. and i didnt read half these posts cuz i dont want to read ppls ass negative comments, BR was great so damn, deal with it. i think i read that someone liked B$R over BR............thats scary:confused: :(

I agree!:up:

[Catman]

I don't know why, but I just feel like bumping this thread. :o

[Danny No-Shame]

I watched it last night on TCM. It is a fine piece of work and I believe the best of the original bunch. I think it's definitely the most 'Burton-esque' of the lot and you can really tell everybody had a blast putting it together.
Plus Michelle Pfeiffer in Latex! I was a teenager when it came out so how long do you think that little image stayed with me? In fact, I may just go crack one off right now.

Dear God, please forgive for saying things like 'Burton-esque'.

[Catman]

The movie was on TCM last night?! Cool.

[Joker]

This is still one of my favorite Batman movies, and one of my favorite movies of all time.

Brilliant performances delivered from all, particularly from DeVito and Pfeiffer. They're still my fav on screen Batman villains to date. The emotional impact they delivered along with their villainous menace, is better than anything the other Bat villain actors have given IMO.

The music, Gotham's architecture, the atmosphere, the snow, I just love it all. Great movie.

[Catman]

^ Yeah, I like it more than Batman Begins.

[Kevin Roegele]

This is still one of my favorite Batman movies, and one of my favorite movies of all time.

Brilliant performances delivered from all, particularly from DeVito and Pfeiffer. They're still my fav on screen Batman villains to date. The emotional impact they delivered along with their villainous menace, is better than anything the other Bat villain actors have given IMO.

The music, Gotham's architecture, the atmosphere, the snow, I just love it all. Great movie.

:up: Good call. Wonderful, sublime production design. The character, the visuals and the music fit so well together it's seamless.

To think that some dismiss it simply because they don't think it resembles the comics enough.

[Kevin Roegele]

^ Yeah, I like it more than Batman Begins.

Me too.

[Rockbottom]

http://www.defenderofgotham.net/images/movieimages/batmanreturns/b1.jpg
His first Batman film was a disaster in this respect: it visually lacked both imagination and control. He knew he screwed up, and this time he fixes nearly everything that was broken the first time around. He still has that dead melodramatic third act, but everything else is great.



While i like the film alot, Batman is much better imo. I think returns could of really been great, just there is hardly any Batman in it. Add more scenes with Batman in and take out the kamazai penguins, and you got a kick ass movie.

[Bat Attack]

I wish I would have known it was on TCM! They always show films in widescreen with no commercials, and they aren't cut.

[Bat Attack]

Me too.
Me three. :batman:

[union_jak]

It will always be my favourite film, not just out of the Batman movies, but of every film there is.

[Kevin Roegele]

It will always be my favourite film, not just out of the Batman movies, but of every film there is.

What it someone makes a film you like more?

[Catman]

While i like the film alot, Batman is much better imo.

Yeah, I also prefer B89 for several reasons. 1) I thought it had more of an interesting approach. Batman Returns was an amazing film but it was pretty much a Tim Burton film. B89 combined Kane/Finger, Frank Miller, and Tim Burton. I thought that was an interesting combination. 2) I liked the British feel. Nolan, f--ked up his British feel by shooting in Chicago. In B89 there's just something great about watching Bruce Wayne drive out of his castle. lol. 3) I actually prefer Anton Furst's production design. 4) Batman's costume/suit was WAY better. 5) B89 has flaws and I'll be the first to admit that, but I felt the story was very good. Returns didn't have the strongest story and I was disappointed that Harvey Dent wasn't in the film.

But...Batman Returns is still my 2nd favorite Batman film. It's the deepest and most artistic Batman film EVER made. So far anyway...

[union_jak]

What it someone makes a film you like more?
I don't see that happening.:yay:

Some have tried, but none can compete. Returns has been around for most of my life, I grew up watching it nearly every week as a child. I think I use Returns as a standard now, and nothing has compared to it so far. I doubt that I could ever say of a movie "This is greater than Returns."

[Kevin Roegele]

I don't see that happening.:yay:

Some have tried, but none can compete. Returns has been around for most of my life, I grew up watching it nearly every week as a child. I think I use Returns as a standard now, and nothing has compared to it so far. I doubt that I could ever say of a movie "This is greater than Returns."

What about Edward Scissorhands? That's Burton's masterpiece.

[Nepenthes]

BR is a beautiful movie that manages to be real crap if viewed in the wrong perspective. :heart: :batman:

[Damiean Dark]

Keaton in Batman Returns was the ultimate portrayel of the batman character but i do think B89 just trumps it as a film.

[Bat Attack]

Batman was more of a blockbuster, Batman Returns was more artsy. IMO.

[Catman]

Batman was more of a blockbuster, Batman Returns was more artsy. IMO.

I tend to see it that way as well.

[House_of_El]

:batty: http://daw.dyndns.org/images/movies/posters/batman%20returns.jpg

Kick a$$ movie.

[Kevin Roegele]

Keaton in Batman Returns was the ultimate portrayel of the batman character but i do think B89 just trumps it as a film.

I disagree, I think Keaton's performance was much better, more assured, in Batman. In Returns, he is much more self-aware and adds small elements of comedy. In the first movie, he's so focused and intent, it's scary. He always knows what to do. Take the moment where the first of the Joker's Goons jumps towards him in the cathedral. Batman waits until the last moment, and finally shoots that weird thing out of his glove to take him down.

In Returns, Batman shows signs of panic when the Batmobile is rushing toward the alleyway and he can't figure out which button activates the Batmissile.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Like Keaton had said in the extras to the dvd before starting the second film he had to go back and think how he had played the character, since he never played a character twice up until then, it seemed to be a little hard for him. He asked Burton how to go about it, and he said to just go with whatever, to flow, Keaton had said trying to get back into character was like him playing the character like acting like himself lol. I actually think that his portrayal of Wayne was pretty close to the one he did in the first, but his Batman was definetly different. The first scene where he saves Selina, that was along the lines of the character he played in the first film, but after that he just dosent flow the way he did before, the way he fights...moves, talks to Catwoman, (though when he confronts Penguin in front of Shrecks store, that was pretty close to the no-nonsense we got from him in the end of 89 when he confronts Joker in the Cathedral) just about everything is different, and just to say I did like the suit in Returns but nowhere near as much as the first, though Returns is slicker and more precise it somehow took away from the way he acted in it, and the darkness. I very much hated how Keaton added the small bits of humor while in the suit considering how brutal and "no-nonsense" he was in the first (except for the "you weigh a little more than 108" line), and Burton had told Keaton to go with it, I just wasnt used to it and up to this day still pick that out as one of the "few" things I dont like about Returns. I could keep going, but honestly I do love Batman Returns as a Tim Burton film, but not as a "true" Batman movie.

[Catman]

I disagree, I think Keaton's performance was much better, more assured, in Batman. In Returns, he is much more self-aware and adds small elements of comedy. In the first movie, he's so focused and intent, it's scary. He always knows what to do. Take the moment where the first of the Joker's Goons jumps towards him in the cathedral. Batman waits until the last moment, and finally shoots that weird thing out of his glove to take him down.

In Returns, Batman shows signs of panic when the Batmobile is rushing toward the alleyway and he can't figure out which button activates the Batmissile.

The character simply evolved. In B89 he was just doing his thing. In Returns he started to question himself. Bruce Wayne was tempted to give his crimefighting ways. That's why we get a different performance. This really isn't the same Batman from the first one. In the first one he was the upset little kid seeking revenger. In the second he was an adult questioning the decisions in his life.

Like Keaton had said in the extras to the dvd before starting the second film he had to go back and think how he had played the character, since he never played a character twice up until then, it seemed to be a little hard for him. He asked Burton how to go about it, and he said to just go with whatever, to flow, Keaton had said trying to get back into character was like him playing the character like acting like himself lol. I actually think that his portrayal of Wayne was pretty close to the one he did in the first, but his Batman was definetly different. The first scene where he saves Selina, that was along the lines of the character he played in the first film, but after that he just dosent flow the way he did before, the way he fights...moves, talks to Catwoman, (though when he confronts Penguin in front of Shrecks store, that was pretty close to the no-nonsense we got from him in the end of 89 when he confronts Joker in the Cathedral) just about everything is different, and just to say I did like the suit in Returns but nowhere near as much as the first, though Returns is slicker and more precise it somehow took away from the way he acted in it, and the darkness. I very much hated how Keaton added the small bits of humor while in the suit considering how brutal and "no-nonsense" he was in the first (except for the "you weigh a little more than 108" line), and Burton had told Keaton to go with it, I just wasnt used to it and up to this day still pick that out as one of the "few" things I dont like about Returns. I could keep going, but honestly I do love Batman Returns as a Tim Burton film, but not as a "true" Batman movie.

Keaton struggled because Burton is a bad communicator. Some good direction would have helped the man. But, I think Keaton eventually figured it out. You can just tell by watching the film. As for the fighting, the reason its different is because Keaton actually did his stunts this time unlike the first one.

[Kevin Roegele]

The character simply evolved. In B89 he was just doing his thing. In Returns he started to question himself. Bruce Wayne was tempted to give his crimefighting ways. That's why we get a different performance. This really isn't the same Batman from the first one. In the first one he was the upset little kid seeking revenger. In the second he was an adult questioning the decisions in his life.

Absolutely, but I'm not talking about the character, I'm talking about Keaton's performance.

[Catman]

Absolutely, but I'm not talking about the character, I'm talking about Keaton's performance.

Yeah, but if the character changes than so does the performance. It's like the Lethal Weapon series. In Lethal Weapon, Mel Gibson played Martin Riggs as a depressed and wild cop with a death wish. In Lethal Weapon 4, Gibson played Riggs as a happy-go-lucky cop who's starting to get old so he finally knows how his partner has been feeling for the past 9 years.

[DocLathropBrown]

Exactly, Catman. Keaton, in Batman Returns is a much darker and different Batman. I've always said that after getting revenge on Naiper, he got swollowed by his demons and became so much darker, just like the villains we was fighting.

Batman was not a hero in Returns, he's just the least-evil villain. An anti-hero. He doesn't want to protect Gotham from the Penguin, not subconciously. He just wants to keep control of it for himself, instead of letting the Penguin take control of it. It's a power struggle. Sure, the city is safe under Batman's rule, but his attempt to save the city is more out of selfishness than selflessness.

When he confronts the Penguin, when the Penguin asks him if he thinks he'll win, they're silently acknowledging the fact that it is all just a contest, really. A contest in which the winner gets Gotham City.

It is when Bruce recognizes Selina is Catwoman that he puts the pieces together. He sees himself in her exploits, and for the first time since before Naiper, Bruce asks himself: "What have I become?" He realizes how similar he is to Catwoman, and he realizes he let himself go too far.

So after that happens, notice how he stops being ruthless in the second half of the film? It's because he finally saw how far he'd gone, and then he's out to actually save the city again, NOT to take it back into his power. But when Selina can't come back to the "light" with him, when she falls all the way past redemption, it is at the end that Bruce feels particularly lost, drowning in his scarred psyche. He needed Selina, he needed someone to help him through the process of redemption, but when she leaves, he's stuck between heaven-and-hell, in purgatory.

Then, in Forever, he gets that person to guide, to help guide himself. He finds Dick, who he helps off the wrong path and, in the process, finishes saving himself. That talk about "Revenge becoming your whole life" is Bruce telling Dick what will happen to him, because it happened to Bruce himself when Naiper died.

Did I make any sense? It's easy to see the arc Burton was probably going for. And though it wasn't finished in the perfect circumstances (a third Burton film), it was still finished in Forever.

It's all speculation, but I think it makes a lot of damn sense, wouldn't you say? Especially when you add in the fact that Burton allegedly wrote the outline for Forever, which had the resolution of the Batman character arc, including the "revenge" speech. It is with this revelation that the significence of Batman's ruthlessness in Returns can be seen. He was setting up Batman to be redeemed. And it's funny.... Burton seems like such a scatterbrained guy, you'd never expect something of that caliber out of him.

[Catman]

It's easy to see the arc Burton was probably going for. And though it wasn't finished in the perfect circumstances (a third Burton film), it was still finished in Forever.

That's what I like about Forever. It finished what Burton started. The film's biggest flaw is that it wasn't finished by Burton himself.

[Mr.E.Nygma]

Batman was more of a blockbuster, Batman Returns was more artsy. IMO.Interesting thought. With that in mind, BR should have been called Tim Burton's Batman:o. Every artist signs his creation:cwink:

[dude love]

Batman was not a hero in Returns, he's just the least-evil villain. An anti-hero. He doesn't want to protect Gotham from the Penguin, not subconciously. He just wants to keep control of it for himself, instead of letting the Penguin take control of it. It's a power struggle. Sure, the city is safe under Batman's rule, but his attempt to save the city is more out of selfishness than selflessness.

I love Returns, it's my second favourite film of all time and now matter how far you dig, you still keep going deeper. I'd like to expand on your thesis:

Take the Christ allegory given to Penguin, he was born on Christmas, his parents let him float away a la Moses, he hatches a plan to kill the first born children of Gotham and then he dies at 33 (also I beleive the black bile coming from his mouth is an occurance in hell). All the while he's presented as the polar opposite of Batman. Where Batman's parent where taken away from him, Penguins parent where the ones that abandoned him, Bruce Wayne is a handsome and physically superior man, Penguin is grotesque, short, fat. However there's a flipside, the public embrace Penguin, they love him, but they don't give a hoot about Bruce Wayne or Batman anymore, in fact they where more than willing to turn on him once Penguin/Catwoman set him up. Wherever the Penguin goesthe public follow him, his parents grave, his campaign offices, but everybody forgot Bruce Wayne, look at the scene where he's cruising around in the Batmobile spying on Penguin, nobody cares, he's parked there for a good ten minutes, you'd the public would swarm the Batmobile, but they just don't care. He becomes jealous, ("Must you be on only lonely man beast in town?" Alfred inquires). He denies it at first. But at the end he admits to it. ("You're just jealous because I'm a genuine freak and you have to wear a mask!" Penguin screams "You might be right!" Batman admits). Maybe that's the point where Batman stops his ruthlessness and tries to redeem himself and Selina?

When he confronts the Penguin, when the Penguin asks him if he thinks he'll win, they're silently acknowledging the fact that it is all just a contest, really. A contest in which the winner gets Gotham City.

Bravo. I never would've picked up on that. It goes deeper than I what I've been saying.

I'll watch the Burton films again and come back with more.

[Agentsands77]

I don't misunderstand BATMAN RETURNS at all - I fully understand a lot of the stuff Burton put in there, and the artistry that went into it. But I don't believe it turns out a coherent film, or that it is really a great "Batman" film.

[Kevin Roegele]

I don't misunderstand BATMAN RETURNS at all - I fully understand a lot of the stuff Burton put in there, and the artistry that went into it. But I don't believe it turns out a coherent film, or that it is really a great "Batman" film.

That's always the last resort of the anti-Returns argument: "Alright, so it is good, but it's not proper Batman." ;)

[Kevin Roegele]

I love Returns, it's my second favourite film of all time and now matter how far you dig, you still keep going deeper. I'd like to expand on your thesis:

Take the Christ allegory given to Penguin, he was born on Christmas, his parents let him float away a la Moses, he hatches a plan to kill the first born children of Gotham and then he dies at 33 (also I beleive the black bile coming from his mouth is an occurance in hell). All the while he's presented as the polar opposite of Batman. Where Batman's parent where taken away from him, Penguins parent where the ones that abandoned him, Bruce Wayne is a handsome and physically superior man, Penguin is grotesque, short, fat. However there's a flipside, the public embrace Penguin, they love him, but they don't give a hoot about Bruce Wayne or Batman anymore, in fact they where more than willing to turn on him once Penguin/Catwoman set him up. Wherever the Penguin goesthe public follow him, his parents grave, his campaign offices, but everybody forgot Bruce Wayne, look at the scene where he's cruising around in the Batmobile spying on Penguin, nobody cares, he's parked there for a good ten minutes, you'd the public would swarm the Batmobile, but they just don't care. He becomes jealous, ("Must you be on only lonely man beast in town?" Alfred inquires). He denies it at first. But at the end he admits to it. ("You're just jealous because I'm a genuine freak and you have to wear a mask!" Penguin screams "You might be right!" Batman admits). Maybe that's the point where Batman stops his ruthlessness and tries to redeem himself and Selina?



Bravo. I never would've picked up on that. It goes deeper than I what I've been saying.

I'll watch the Burton films again and come back with more.

The Penguin plotline is extremely similar to that of Jack Skellington's in The Nightmare Before Christmas.

[Agentsands77]

That's always the last resort of the anti-Returns argument: "Alright, so it is good, but it's not proper Batman." ;)
But it *isn't* "proper Batman." :cwink:

But that's a secondary argument. Back to the primary argument, it never comes together as a coherent film. RETURNS is something of a mish-mash. An often delightful, beautiful, and well-acted mish-mash, but it's still a mish-mash. BATMAN RETURNS' script is appallingly bad, and it's a testimony to Tim Burton, Bo Welch, and the cast's talent that they make the film work.

[Kevin Roegele]

But it *isn't* "proper Batman." :cwink:

But that's a secondary argument. Back to the primary argument, it never comes together as a coherent film. RETURNS is something of a mish-mash. An often delightful, beautiful, and well-acted mish-mash, but it's still a mish-mash. BATMAN RETURNS' script is appallingly bad, and it's a testimony to Tim Burton, Bo Welch, and the cast's talent that they make the film work.

I don't agree with you, but I really appreciate that you use proper criticism, and criticise the film as a film. So many arguments seem to consist of, "the Penguin isn't like that in the comics," and so on.

How can you say the script is appalling? In what way does it fail, in your eyes? I'm the first to admit it's weak in terms of adventure-narrative pacing, and contains little actual progressive plotting (it's more constant clashes/interactions between the characters until they're almost all dead), but to concentrate on that would take away from the movie's, abd Burton's. real strengths. Look at Planet of the Apes - Burton tried to tell a straight forward adventure movie, and it didn't work at all.

[Agentsands77]

I don't agree with you, but I really appreciate that you use proper criticism, and criticise the film as a film. So many arguments seem to consist of, "the Penguin isn't like that in the comics," and so on.
Well, thank you. I don't truly mind that BATMAN RETURNS deviates from the source, though I do acknowledge that it's only loosely related to its source material. This is Batman reinterpreted as a dream (or nightmare, depending on how you look at it).

How can you say the script is appalling? In what way does it fail, in your eyes? I'm the first to admit it's weak in terms of adventure-narrative pacing, and contains little actual progressive plotting (it's more constant clashes/interactions between the characters until they're almost all dead), but to concentrate on that would take away from the movie's, abd Burton's. real strengths. Look at Planet of the Apes - Burton tried to tell a straight forward adventure movie, and it didn't work at all.
Well, I'd never demand BATMAN RETURNS be plot-driven. As you say, Burton's never worked well with a plot-driven story.

However, I find the script terrible not because it's not plot driven, but because it's muddled. Just because the film is character-driven rather than plot-driven doesn't mean that the movie can't (or shouldn't) have a clear focus. But BATMAN RETURNS has no focus. In my opinion, the center of BATMAN RETURNS really should be on Batman/Selina, and I think most of us agree that should be the case, especially given that Burton's trying to explore Batman's duality. And, IMO, it doesn't feel like it is.

An oft-cited criticism is that Batman doesn't feel like the focal point of BATMAN RETURNS, and while this argument is often stated by people without any nuance, I think it essentially holds true. Daniel Waters said that when writing BATMAN RETURNS, he and Burton had the hardest time figuring out what to do with him, and that he was far more interested in Catwoman. It shows.

Waters' script also makes terrible jumps without explanation. For example, the Batmobile plans. No explanation whatsoever. And it doesn't previously establish anything about a remote-controlled penguin army, so they suddenly appear without explanation (and, for what it's worth, I think the penguin army is entirely too silly and unnecessary - the film could have survived just fine on the "murder the firstborn of Gotham" storyline).

Furthermore, I don't think Burton's strength is complex storytelling. I have yet to see a film of his that was able to successfully balance multiple story threads. Burton's best films are generally simple stories that he expands upon in highly imaginative ways. EDWARD SCISSORHANDS, ED WOOD, or even BIG FISH - these films all have a clear emotional center and a clear narrative focus, even though they're hardly plot-driven. BATMAN RETURNS offers no such clear story. We have tons of different characters placed on a seemingly equal plane, and it's not clear where our emotional center is.

[House_of_El]

Exactly, Catman. Keaton, in Batman Returns is a much darker and different Batman. I've always said that after getting revenge on Naiper, he got swollowed by his demons and became so much darker, just like the villains we was fighting.

Batman was not a hero in Returns, he's just the least-evil villain. An anti-hero. He doesn't want to protect Gotham from the Penguin, not subconciously. He just wants to keep control of it for himself, instead of letting the Penguin take control of it. It's a power struggle. Sure, the city is safe under Batman's rule, but his attempt to save the city is more out of selfishness than selflessness.

When he confronts the Penguin, when the Penguin asks him if he thinks he'll win, they're silently acknowledging the fact that it is all just a contest, really. A contest in which the winner gets Gotham City.

It is when Bruce recognizes Selina is Catwoman that he puts the pieces together. He sees himself in her exploits, and for the first time since before Naiper, Bruce asks himself: "What have I become?" He realizes how similar he is to Catwoman, and he realizes he let himself go too far.

So after that happens, notice how he stops being ruthless in the second half of the film? It's because he finally saw how far he'd gone, and then he's out to actually save the city again, NOT to take it back into his power. But when Selina can't come back to the "light" with him, when she falls all the way past redemption, it is at the end that Bruce feels particularly lost, drowning in his scarred psyche. He needed Selina, he needed someone to help him through the process of redemption, but when she leaves, he's stuck between heaven-and-hell, in purgatory.

Then, in Forever, he gets that person to guide, to help guide himself. He finds Dick, who he helps off the wrong path and, in the process, finishes saving himself. That talk about "Revenge becoming your whole life" is Bruce telling Dick what will happen to him, because it happened to Bruce himself when Naiper died.

Did I make any sense? It's easy to see the arc Burton was probably going for. And though it wasn't finished in the perfect circumstances (a third Burton film), it was still finished in Forever.

It's all speculation, but I think it makes a lot of damn sense, wouldn't you say? Especially when you add in the fact that Burton allegedly wrote the outline for Forever, which had the resolution of the Batman character arc, including the "revenge" speech. It is with this revelation that the significence of Batman's ruthlessness in Returns can be seen. He was setting up Batman to be redeemed. And it's funny.... Burton seems like such a scatterbrained guy, you'd never expect something of that caliber out of him.

You made a good point. I never really saw it that way.....

[dude love]

The Penguin plotline is extremely similar to that of Jack Skellington's in The Nightmare Before Christmas.

Does that go with, or against, what I said? If I just got pwned without realising it I'm going to cry as I haven't seen Nightmare.

[Bat Attack]

You should watch it. Now. :dry::(

[GREEN =w= DAY]

someone please youtube the scene where Batman first shows up in the film. him coming in the batmobile, takes down a couple of the penguin's goons, and finally saving selina. that's my fav scene in the whole movie. :yay:

[Catman]

^ Not on YouTube, but I did find this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWhFBNL2zYY

[El Payaso]

^ Man, that's youtube.

[Catman]

Yup :)

[WorthyStevens]

Returns is my favorite flick out of all the Batman movies. I love everything about this movie: Keaton, Pfeiffer, DeVito, the look and feel of the movie, and the score.

The SNES game kicked some serious ass too. That was my favorite game as kid, up until Mario Kart.

[Rockbottom]

^ I think the atmousphere was slighty too gloomy to be honest, but i agree on the score and the casting, they were both perfect.

[Damiean Dark]

That sequence between catwoman and penguin is an all time classic

"Penquin theres "some body" here to see you"

"just the pussy ive been waiting for"

BATMAN RETURNS IS AN AMAZING FILM

[Two-Face]

That's excellnt one ^


Penguin: "You'll never invited me so I crashed"

Maybe it isn't good as yours DD.

[Joker]

Penguin had great lines in the movie.

"They wouldn't put me on a pedestal. So, I'm laying them on a slab"

"You're just jealous because I'm a genuine freak, and you have to wear a mask"

"You lousy minx. I ought to have you spayed. You sent out all the signals!!! And I don't think I like you anymore"

[Kevin Roegele]

^ I think the atmousphere was slighty too gloomy to be honest, but i agree on the score and the casting, they were both perfect.

I love the atmosphere, it's dark but fun. It's like Dr Caligari told by Dr Seuss.

[batmaluco]

I love all those german expressionism's nods given by Burton, Max Shreck (the actor who played Nosferatus), Fritz Lang (Dr. Caligari on Penguin's make up and Metropolis on his take on Gotham).

He also used biblical references like Moses and "the baby in the basket" episode.

And even David Lynch's The Elephant Man when the Penguin said that "I'm not a man, I'm an animal", the exact opposite of what John Merrick (The Elephant Man) said.

There are other references but that's what I can remember from the top of my head right now.

All this, and the way how he linked the Bat, the Cat and the Penguin, making a rich, tragic, touchy but however sad film, makes me think this movie as being the best of the whole bunch. I keep oscilating among this one, Batman 89' and BB as my favorite, I can't really decide, because it depends on how I'm feeling on that given moment, depends on the mood, so sometimes BR is my favorite.

Like now. :yay:

[marvelrobbins]

I love Batman Returns.Danny Devito Is a great Penguin.Michelle Pheiffer IS
Just fantastic and sexy as Catwoman(and I love she Is more or less played as a Dominatrix and the overtunes between her and Batman I can't get enough) and Michael Keaton Is even better as Batman the second time(however the weakness of his portal Is he never got to be the public Bruce Wayne) It IS darker than Batman and I have always felt more action packed than Batman as well.I consider Batman,Batman Returns,and Batman Forever as a trilogy.Batman started the story,Batman Returns contuned It(and was the best of the three) and Batman Forever ended It(of course I wish Tim Burton would have been allowed to do the finishing.If you see the Special features on Batman Returns DVD It shows that he wanted to direct another
Batman but Warner Brothers didn't)

[Mylord]

BR is one of my all time favourite movies, I watched it A LOT and yet there are some things that I don't like/understand.
Doesn't it look stupid when Batman defeats an entire gang of deadly circus freaks but then he can't handle Catwoman (who yesterday was just an secretary)?
When Batman fights Penguin who without a problem gets from him remote controller, ignites rockets on pengiun's back and suddently... the bats come from Batboat and attacks him? It looked cool but was really forced and cheap IMO. What do you think about it?

[Catman]

Catwoman is a better fighter than the Circus Gang.

[Joker]

BR is one of my all time favourite movies, I watched it A LOT and yet there are some things that I don't like/understand.
Doesn't it look stupid when Batman defeats an entire gang of deadly circus freaks but then he can't handle Catwoman (who yesterday was just an secretary)?

Catwoman is better fighter than the Circus thugs. When she was revived by the cats, she inherited their traits, including their nimble cat like reflexes, and of course, the nine lives thing.

When Batman fights Penguin who without a problem gets from him remote controller, ignites rockets on pengiun's back and suddently... the bats come from Batboat and attacks him? It looked cool but was really forced and cheap IMO. What do you think about it?

Didn't look forced and cheap to me. It looked really cool. Especially when the rockets start destroying the old zoo. It's sad to think all the little penguins probably died in that destruction.

[Bat Attack]

I agree that the Batman Returns video game was great. I still have my copy for the SNES (which I play often).

[Redwoods Wolf]

I still think B89 is the better of the two, but I've come to appreciate BR a lot more as I've gotten older.
Some personal favorites:
The introduction of Batman: One of the fewer sequels that has a better intro for the hero than the original. You can't beat a huge bat-signal being reflected into the mansion and Keaton standing up and coming to life.
Catwoman: Looked and sounded awesome. Michelle Pfieffer clearly put her all into the role, and good for her. :up:
Batman/Penguin arc: Batman takes down Penguin's thugs but can't prove Penguin's directly responsible. Penguin responds by framing Batman for murder and taking control of the car. Batman then hits him where it hurts the most: right in the self-esteem. Penguin, already clearly struggling with abandonment issues, gets his whole psyche put on display and the people of Gotham chase him back to the sewers. But Batman's not done. He thunders towards the old zoo in his Batboat while his theme music thunders around him. And this time, he crashes the vehicle but he doesn't miss the bad guy. And he gets Penguin in the same way Penguin got the ice princess. Poetic justice, b---h! And he nukes the old zoo with Penguin's very own arsenal. You just don't mess with Bats.
Max Shrek: Christopher Walken = automatic win. Every time. And what a final comeuppance!
True, not every loose end was tied up to my complete satisfaction (Batman never proven innocent, unmasking in front of Shrek), but this was a great movie nevertheless. Props to Burton for having the guts to stick to his vision.

[Super78]

I remember first seeing Returns in the theatre back in the summer of '92 -- and coming away from it somewhat confused at what I just saw.

It surely wasn't the big bang up sequel I was expecting to the blockbutser original.

But as years gone by and the chance to revisit it on DVD (when the special editions came out in '05), I've learned to appreciate it much more.

Its verty gothic and I love how Burton emphasizes each of the characters somewhat not-so-normal tendencies.

Its a great movie.

[Bat Attack]

Did anyone ever notice on the full screen edition of the film that if you look between batman and the penguin right when Catwoman is doing backflips toward them after she blows up shrecks, there is a catwoman double or something between them kneeling there. It's only on the full screen version for some reason.

[El Payaso]

I noticed it was kinda corrected for the special edition.

[KenK]

I don't misunderstand BATMAN RETURNS at all - I fully understand a lot of the stuff Burton put in there, and the artistry that went into it. But I don't believe it turns out a coherent film, or that it is really a great "Batman" film.

I think a lot of people get hung up on Burton's visual style and storytelling approach, and acting like all of that swaps out elements of Batman as a character, instead of seeing it as additions made to the character. Batman is still very much Batman, right down to the first shot of him in the study, and it's not until the Bat Signal shines through his window that he actually feels alive.

As for changing the villains. Catwoman doesn't really have what we'd call a classic origin, and I think the most important aspect of her character is her interaction with Batman, and I think the film understood that. She's always been that character who challenged Batman and the film did a great job illustrating that.

[Redwoods Wolf]

http://www.batmanunmasked.com/albums/userpics/10001/cap420.jpg
I loved this moment, too--it was like somebody cut and pasted from DKR. :up:

[DocLathropBrown]

Did anyone ever notice on the full screen edition of the film that if you look between batman and the penguin right when Catwoman is doing backflips toward them after she blows up shrecks, there is a catwoman double or something between them kneeling there. It's only on the full screen version for some reason.

Burton likes to shoot in 1.85:1 aspect ratio. On most of those, they're filmed in fullscreen and the director adds the black bars in post-production. Hence, the widescreen version just removes the matte bars that Burton put on to get the look he wanted. That's why it can sometimes reveal errors, because those portions of the picture are not meant to be seen. Terminator 2: Judgement Day was also, I believe, shot like this. Fullscreen and framed to 2.35:1 in post.

[dude love]

As was Aliens. Jimbo and Burton both think alike there.

[HalloweenRes]

Hey, I gotta say, I LOVE Batman Returns. It was one of Burton's BEST! It's a fun movie to watch; especially Danny DiVito's Penquin! While I like this movie, it is not by any means a GREAT Batman movie, but it is a GREAT Burton Movie. I can remember going to see this movie in theatres (I would have been 10, almost 11) and I can remember my mother not wanting me to see the movie, because it was suppose to be more violent and she heard Batman killed people (which he did). The movie was visually stunning, and the story line was great.
I read a review for Batman Returns on Jett's Batman on film and someone said that Batman and Max Shreck sort of mirror the opposite of one another. You can see how Bruce Wayne could have become a "Max Schreck" type character, or been an "outcast" like the Penquin, or a vigilante, ala the Catwomen. You have all of those great parrallels and psychology wrapped in a "big bow" for our enjoyment! I just remember everyone in my family was like, "Who is playing the Penquin??" I believe the film was ahead of its time and cudos to Mr. Burton for giving us a sequal, that IMHO was just as good as the original!

[Ibn]

it was alright...it would have been much better though if they had let Burton do what he wanted to with it (Harvey Dent instead of Max Shreck, non mutant Penguin, introduction of Robin, etc...)...this was really the WB's first step in destroying the Bat-Franchise

HE WAS GONNA WHAT?!?!?! **** WB man. Billy Dee would have been friggin excellent. But I like the BR version of penguin so much more than in the comics. Guess I'm just a fan of the tragedy.

[Ibn]

Burton wanted to waste Robin by making him a mechanic in a 10-second cameo. I'm glad Warners stopped him. Also, the 'mutant Penguin' idea was all Burton's, it was Warners who forced him to make the character resemble the classic version by having him dress up like a 1930's aristocrat (note on the Batman Returns DVD/video cover, the Penguin looks far more like the classic Penguin than he ever does in the movie).

Again, DAMN I WISH THEY WOULD HAVE LET HIM HAVE HIS WAY.:woot:

[Ceb-Man]

From UGO:

This is the one Batman film that came close to the tone of the comic book, and Bob Kane's original character creation, for that matter. Understand this, once and for all: Bruce Wayne is a PSYCHOTIC. He witnessed his PARENTS' MURDER. He dresses up as a BAT. He is not a healthy man. The truly well-done Batman stories are dark, gothic, despairing and nihilistic nightmare yarns, in which mentally ill characters, both good and evil, go to vaudevillian extremes to express their psychoses. They become tragic clowns, all of them, and Tim Burton understood this. This is the Batman movie he wanted to make, with little to no studio interference. This is as close as it's going to get, folks. Cherish it, or you can't call yourself a Batman fan. The only reason this unpleasant, ghoulish film had to pull some of its punches to get a friendly rating is because it's the sequel to the inferior (though still solid) original, which made a kazillion dollars.

I agree. If you really look at Bill Finger and Bob Kane's original concept The Batman was dark, even killed. That is why I like Batman 89 and Batman Returns.

[fabman]

I love 'Batman Returns.' Kev is right, it's a masterpiece. I just watched it today and it's hard to describe why I love it so much, I just love it!

[ab38416]

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