JLA vs. The X-men

[Phenomenal]

Well in the admittedly crappy scan I saw he wasn't receiving any help though he did mention that he is not sure how long he can hold on. Superman has escaped many black holes though hasn't he? IIRC he escaped a double black hole before or something like that. Also didn't he hold a bomb that could destroy half the galaxy in his hands?

Dude those scans are classics and they are great.

Supes failed to escape a Black Hole, he didn't escape through speed but needed help to escape by other means, with an alien.

The Maggadeon Warhead never detonated Supes disabled the bomb because it was poorly written by being fueld with red Solar energy. So Supes just abosrbed the negative energy before it could explode.

[The Leaguer]

Magneto loses.

DC wins.

Anyone who matters is okay with that.

[Flash Facts]

How do you know the quality of the scan I saw??

[CaptainClown]

Im waiting for him to say Magneto is immune to green, only teal could hurt him.

[Hush]

Magneto loses.

DC wins.

Anyone who matters is okay with that.

Do I matter Leaguer?

[The Leaguer]

Are you okay with it?

[Hush]

Yes im very ok with it.

[The Leaguer]

Congratulations, you matter.

[King_Mungi]

Magneto loses.

DC wins.


Indeed, and don't take The Phenomenol too serious he was just banned from killermovies and his last thread he made was Imperiex vs. Onslaught. Ho hum.

[The Leaguer]

I take Phenomenol very seriously. His well thought out arguments and biting logical retorts have earned my respect.

That motherf***er is wrong.

[King_Mungi]

I take Phenomenol very seriously. His well thought out arguments and biting logical retorts have earned my respect.

That motherf***er is wrong.

*salutes* God bless you

[CaptainClown]

haha

[TheCorpulent1]

You mean Ion!

Too bad, again.:up:
Nope, Kyle. Even as a Green Lantern, he didn't actually need to be in contact with his ring to use it. Remember, his ring was special.

[MagicPrime]

I never doubted that the JLA would win. So I guess for once - I have always mattered.

Also, if they can have a fully powered Jean Grey/Phoenix. Be equation shouldn't we have a fully powered Kyle Rayner/Ion?

...I'm thinking yes.

Nope, Kyle. Even as a Green Lantern, he didn't actually need to be in contact with his ring to use it. Remember, his ring was special.

Indeed, that was one of the little bonuses he got when he re-ignited the GL Core Battery and left his Ion powers behind the first time. He could use his ring from distance, call it back to him, and he always had enough reserve power to escape/put up a force field when he needed it. However, not long after that I think they retconned all his special ring abilities that he gave himself when he re-ignited the Battery.

[TheCorpulent1]

That'd just take both of them out of the fight entirely. They'd lock horns for eternity. But Kyle would ultimately win because he's more interesting.

[MagicPrime]

That'd just take both of them out of the fight entirely. They'd lock horns for eternity. But Kyle would ultimately win because he's more interesting.

QFT

I can't believe how bad the dialog of those X-Men scans are. They are really really bad.

[TheCorpulent1]

Phoenix is just a ****ty character in general, too. For all the crap people give Superman about not being interesting because he's too powerful, Phoenix is the embodiment of that very concept.

[trustyside-kick]

Yea, especially when Wolvie misses Magneto and gets only his cape. LOL. Like he really had to think "dang! I missed him and only got his cape!".

[Phenomenal]

I take Phenomenol very seriously. His well thought out arguments and biting logical retorts have earned my respect.

That motherf***er is wrong.

You have yet to refute any of my arguments, especially my scans you ignored.:rolleyes:

Magneto would pwn Superman.

Indeed, and don't take The Phenomenol too serious he was just banned from killermovies and his last thread he made was Imperiex vs. Onslaught. Ho hum.

LOL, NO ONE takes members from KMC serious. Nothing but a bunch of fanboyishness and ignorance posting around there.

Hypeboards >>>>>>>>>>>>>> KMC!:up:

[CaptainClown]

so basically you got banned from a site where they don't take things serious? You must have been really bad.

[Phenomenal]

so basically you got banned from a site where they don't take things serious? You must have been really bad.

Nah, I got banned for 7 days for speaking the truth and fanboys couldn't accept it!:o

[CaptainClown]

uh huh.... right...the truth.

[Phenomenal]

Yeah, when people don't believe scans, it shows the bias and fanboyism!

[Nokio]

QFT

I can't believe how bad the dialog of those X-Men scans are. They are really really bad.


Man I was thinking the exact same thing, but of course i didn't want to say it to ignite another debate about who has the crappiest dialogue between Marvel and DC.

[Nokio]

Yeah, when people don't believe scans, it shows the bias and fanboyism!

The problem when trying to use scans to prove a point becomes sort of moot because I as well as others can go and find scans that counter the ones that were just posted. The Xmen as well as the JLA has been written by different writers at different times. In some issues Jean, Magneto or Superman could be shown as being powerful and gaining the uperhand and overcoming their opponent and then you can go back and find a scan where the same chracters are engaged in battle and the foe taking them on gets the uperhand. Also other heroes or villians that are powerful may best Phoenix or Magneto or Superman as example. It's just like Phoenix is fighting magneto and she loses, but Doom has beaten magneto, but she fights Doom at some point and she wins. I'm not saying that has actually happened but I'm just making a point.

[MagicPrime]

The problem when trying to use scans to prove a point becomes sort of moot because I as well as others can go and find scans that counter the ones that were just posted. The Xmen as well as the JLA has been written by different writers at different times. In some issues Jean, Magneto or Superman could be shown as being powerful and gaining the uperhand and overcoming their opponent and then you can go back and find a scan where the same chracters are engaged in battle and the foe taking them on gets the uperhand. Also other heroes or villians that are powerful may best Phoenix or Magneto or Superman as example. It's just like Phoenix is fighting magneto and she loses, but Doom has beaten magneto, but she fights Doom at some point and she wins. I'm not saying that has actually happened but I'm just making a point.


Exactly! Which is why I didn't say I didn't believe the scans. I just said they had really crappy dialog - which was very very true.

[Whirlysplat]

Indeed, and don't take The Phenomenol too serious he was just banned from killermovies and his last thread he made was Imperiex vs. Onslaught. Ho hum.

Everyone who matters has been banned from KMC that forum is only fit for trolling.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

So since the team rosters can include so many characters.

If all characters were included, that were inside cannon. What would the rosters look like?

[Phenomenal]

I'm not saying that has actually happened but I'm just making a point.

And believe me, I understand your point, it happens all the time in comics...

At the rest of you ( especially The Leaguer) you're acting ridiculous. I'm not gonna waste my time because you ignore facts and scans, If you wanna cry and moan and try and downplay that then go ahead.

Polaris stating what he could do to Superman. And making him Blind.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/vancegathing/Dr.jpg

Draining Superman!!!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/vancegathing/fe57fe85.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/vancegathing/c4d0ec35.jpg

Can't wait to see you twist, cry and moan about these.

[Flash Facts]

How can Superman be blinded like that when he has flown into suns out being blinded? Also if he drained the energy out of Superman where did it go? That much energy would surely have some sort of effect on the surrounding area.

[Phenomenal]

It's a comic book, things like that happen! Also, Superman going near the Sun is nothing for him because he get's more power the closer he gets.

[CaptainClown]

well technically he could use his super hearing then pummel polaris.

[Flash Facts]

Well if light is a power source for Superman then shouldn't the beam have just given him a power boost? Also what happened to the energy that was drained from him?

[Ultra-Herald9]

You guys are going about your counter-arguments all wrong. He did provide scans to support a valid argument. lets not go into how physics should work etc.....

[Ultra-Herald9]

And believe me, I understand your point, it happens all the time in comics...

At the rest of you ( especially The Leaguer) you're acting ridiculous. I'm not gonna waste my time because you ignore facts and scans, If you wanna cry and moan and try and downplay that then go ahead.

Polaris stating what he could do to Superman. And making him Blind.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/vancegathing/Dr.jpg

Draining Superman!!!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/vancegathing/fe57fe85.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/vancegathing/c4d0ec35.jpg

Can't wait to see you twist, cry and moan about these.

Yes. You bring up a point that pretty uch everyone already knew. Supes can be drained but not mearly because he is weak! Superman holds back, often times to much. If he wanted he could have had those to dead in nanoseconds. I read the trade of that a short time ago.

[CaptainClown]

But Polaris still has a weakness and that is his fragile mindstate, well I would assume I had to wiki it) His claim is magneto is all powerful so how does he lose?

[Ultra-Herald9]

And thats the whole argument here. Magneto may be able to drain Superman but Superman and Flash can take him out within some immeasurable fraction of a second. Magneto SOMEHOW manages to put his shield up? Lantern just drains the crap out of it and then Flash knocks him out in a femto second. Or Martian Manhunter could just Psi the crap outta him. Martian Manhunter is AT LEAST Charles Xavier level.

[Ultra-Herald9]

But Polaris still has a weakness and that is his fragile mindstate, well I would assume I had to wiki it) His claim is magneto is all powerful so how does he lose?


He has lost before. Pretty bad too if I recall. I just gotta remember.....:dry:

[Nokio]

And its "moot" not "mute" - just a heads up. If you edit it - i'll edit mine and no one will be the wiser -_^

OH DAMN!

[MagicPrime]

OH DAMN!

Shhh... we shalt not speak of this again!

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

And thats the whole argument here. Magneto may be able to drain Superman but Superman and Flash can take him out within some immeasurable fraction of a second. Magneto SOMEHOW manages to put his shield up? Lantern just drains the crap out of it and then Flash knocks him out in a femto second. Or Martian Manhunter could just Psi the crap outta him. Martian Manhunter is AT LEAST Charles Xavier level.

But doesn't Magneto have his helmet to block out Chuck? Why wouldn't it work against J'onn? Unless I am mistaken?

[Ultra-Herald9]

apparently Charles has overpowered the Helmets defenses, at least thats what I heard.

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Ah, well I wouldn't know. But that doesn't mean J'onn could. For one he wouldn't know about it initially, two he doesn't know Magneto like Charles does, so there is a possibility that Charles could figure out how Magneto would have concieved such a thing.

Not saying J'onn couldn't just saying because Chuck did, does not mean J'onn instantly does.

[Phenomenal]

Yes. You bring up a point that pretty uch everyone already knew. Supes can be drained but not mearly because he is weak! Superman holds back, often times to much. If he wanted he could have had those to dead in nanoseconds. I read the trade of that a short time ago.

And Superman has killed someone in nanoseconds where?

[trustyside-kick]

He is talking about the fact that if Supes went all out, he could.

But that being mentioned...I was surprised with the Superman: Doomsday movie that came out like 2 days ago. They showed Superman fight in a way that made me respect him: as he should. He wasn't just blindly throwing punches.

[Phenomenal]

Superman has always fought like a brute. He just throws punches and hit opponents with cars or whatever else he could find.

I am not really into the Doomsday movie.

[trustyside-kick]

Have you seen it yet? It is really different from the comic version. I'm not a Superman fan, and I saw Braniac Attacks and couldn't believe it was allowed to see the light of day, but with Doomsday being worked on by Bruce Timm, I had more faith and decided to buy it.

I was not disappointed (say for two small details, but they are small), and the special features are awesome. Also, I wish the DC Animated films could be longer. I mean, Marvel's movies have sometimes been like 90 minutes, yet DC is always at 70-75 minutes.

And as I was saying, they actually wrote Superman fighting-wise in a way I've been hoping to see: intelligently.

[Ultra-Herald9]

Superman has always fought like a brute. He just throws punches and hit opponents with cars or whatever else he could find.

I am not really into the Doomsday movie.

You pretty much ADMIT that you don't know anything about Superman in your statement. Let me guess, did you watch some episodes of Justice League and suddenly think you knew about Superman?

[Ultra-Herald9]

And Superman has killed someone in nanoseconds where?

Superman doesn't kill. Superman also doesn't blitz people who don't have the durability to withstand it. So I guess Superman flicking Magneto in the back of the head to K.O. him is more accurate.

[Phenomenal]

Have you seen it yet? It is really different from the comic version. I'm not a Superman fan, and I saw Braniac Attacks and couldn't believe it was allowed to see the light of day, but with Doomsday being worked on by Bruce Timm, I had more faith and decided to buy it.

I was not disappointed (say for two small details, but they are small), and the special features are awesome. Also, I wish the DC Animated films could be longer. I mean, Marvel's movies have sometimes been like 90 minutes, yet DC is always at 70-75 minutes.

And as I was saying, they actually wrote Superman fighting-wise in a way I've been hoping to see: intelligently.

No I haven't seen the Superman vs Doomsday movie, only commercial clips.

Braniac attacks SUCKED MAJOR RECTUM BTW.:o


You pretty much ADMIT that you don't know anything about Superman in your statement. Let me guess, did you watch some episodes of Justice League and suddenly think you knew about Superman?


Oh my, please I have read MANY Superman comics and Superman is just a raw slugger. Don't even bring up that bull training from mongul or that so called crap training in v?ahalla for a 1000 days. Despite all of that supes goes to his usal routine and just fights like a madman.:rolleyes:

So I guess Superman flicking Magneto in the back of the head to K.O. him is more accurate.


LOL, Did you miss the scans I posted? Did you forget Maggs shileds? I think not.:o

[Ultra-Herald9]

LOL, Did you miss the scans I posted? Did you forget Maggs shileds? I think not.:o

Did you forget how Superman could rock Magneto's jaw with a couple haymakers before Magneto ever knew what hit him?

[Phenomenal]

Did you forget how Superman could rock Magneto's jaw with a couple haymakers before Magneto ever knew what hit him?

Not with SHIELDS up.

[ShadowBoxing]

Magneto took a punch from Colossus once without his shield, but apparently his powers still take some of the brunt of the injury off of him.

[Ultra-Herald9]

Oh my, please I have read MANY Superman comics and Superman is just a raw slugger. Don't even bring up that bull training from mongul or that so called crap training in v?ahalla for a 1000 days. Despite all of that supes goes to his usal routine and just fights like a madman.:rolleyes:


It was 1000 years IIRC. He seems like a skilled fighter to IMO and its been shown time and time again that he is alot more skilled then people give him credit for which often catches his opponents off guard. You even referred to some of the instances where he has shown it.

Thor fights like a barbarian with a hammer IMO but I know for a fact that he is extremely skilled with it. Same goes for how Superman fights. Dude can hold his own against amazons.

[Ultra-Herald9]

Not with SHIELDS up.

Before he even puts his shields up though.

[trustyside-kick]

Braniac attacks SUCKED MAJOR RECTUM BTW.:o

You talk like I didn't know that. It was a disgrace to all the DC Animated stuff. And the fact that the designs were pretty much slightly edited versions of the Timmverse was even worse, because it was so bad. Lex Luthor probably pissed me off the most. Even the colors used ticked me off. All that together is just a horrible, horrible animated film.

[MagicPrime]

Oh my, please I have read MANY Superman comics and Superman is just a raw slugger. Don't even bring up that bull training from mongul or that so called crap training in v?ahalla for a 1000 days. Despite all of that supes goes to his usal routine and just fights like a madman.:rolleyes:


WildCat taught superman how to box. You need scans on that?

[TheCorpulent1]

Regardless of all his training, Superman generally does tend to just fly in and swing at things in the comics. We never really see any references to his using his training.

[Flash Facts]

Yea, Superman does seem to disregard his training until it becomes clear to him that his opponent is formidable.

[Phenomenal]

It was 1000 years IIRC. He seems like a skilled fighter to IMO and its been shown time and time again that he is alot more skilled then people give him credit for which often catches his opponents off guard. You even referred to some of the instances where he has shown it.

Thor fights like a barbarian with a hammer IMO but I know for a fact that he is extremely skilled with it. Same goes for how Superman fights. Dude can hold his own against amazons.

Noone really in Marvel or DC uses skill unless stated to be a martial artist or a skilled in a trade.:o

Before he even puts his shields up though.

Superman's reflexes are not faster than thought.

WildCat taught superman how to box. You need scans on that?

Wow, boxing, another way to say he throws his punches like a madman, just under control though:rolleyes: .
Wildcat taught Batman haow to box too.

[trustyside-kick]

Superman's reflexes are not faster than thought..

His reflexes may not be faster than thought...but I don't think it would be such a stretch to say he couldn't user his superspeed to get right next to Magneto with a punch before Magneto knew what hit him.

And the fact that Magneto could take a punch from Colossus and not get knocked out is retarded. Last time I checked...while an "Omega" mutant, he is still human in the sense that his body is as fragile as that of the average person. I've been hearing how Colossus is a class 100 nowadays or something. His powers somehow helping brush off the force of Colossus' attack without his shield is just bad writing. Course, I cannot really believe too much since Marvel's strength class is beyond retarded with how inconsistent it can be.

[Flash Facts]

Boxing is a martial art and it is hardly just throwing punches :whatever:

[Phenomenal]

His reflexes may not be faster than thought...but I don't think it would be such a stretch to say he couldn't user his superspeed to get right next to Magneto with a punch before Magneto knew what hit him.

And the fact that Magneto could take a punch from Colossus and not get knocked out is retarded. I've been hearing how Colossus is a class 100 nowadays or something. Course, I cannot really believe too much since Marvel's strength class is beyond retarded with how inconsistent it can be.

1. Superman can't fight at Super speeds to save his life, ask the ShaggyMan!:o

2. I totally agree with you on Marvel.

[trustyside-kick]

Yea, what amazes me is that as an Aquaman fan, people talk about DC trying all of these "gimmicks" to make him seem cooler or powerful, when I see that happening with a ****load of Marvel characters. Suddenly, "big daddy" at Marvel gives them a little upgrade here and there.

By the way, I am in no way lashing out against Marvel, because I do like a lot of their characters while now I only pick up one title, I am just pointing out a fact.

[Phenomenal]

Yea, what amazes me is that as an Aquaman fan, people talk about DC trying all of these "gimmicks" to make him seem cooler or powerful, when I see that happening with a ****load of Marvel characters. Suddenly, "big daddy" at Marvel gives them a little upgrade here and there.

By the way, I am in no way lashing out against Marvel, because I do like a lot of their characters while now I only pick up one title, I am just pointing out a fact.

By all means, state your FACTS, I have no problem with them. Your statements are what you said they are...FACTS.

Please, Marvel does those little "gimmicks" all the time.

I agree.:up:

[Ultra-Herald9]

1. Superman can't fight at Super speeds to save his life, ask the ShaggyMan!:o

2. I totally agree with you on Marvel.

Wow, Supes versus Shaggy is way throwback. Now you are just digging. Especially since in recent times he has shown he is capable of blitzing quite easily.

[Phenomenal]

Wow, Supes versus Shaggy is way throwback. Now you are just digging. Especially since in recent times he has shown he is capable of blitzing quite easily.

Supes gets tagged by any and EVERYONE; Nothings changed.

[Ultra-Herald9]

Supes gets tagged by any and EVERYONE; Nothings changed.

Only people who don't really hurt him. He never really needs to move.

[ShadowBoxing]

His reflexes may not be faster than thought...but I don't think it would be such a stretch to say he couldn't user his superspeed to get right next to Magneto with a punch before Magneto knew what hit him.

And the fact that Magneto could take a punch from Colossus and not get knocked out is retarded. Last time I checked...while an "Omega" mutant, he is still human in the sense that his body is as fragile as that of the average person. I've been hearing how Colossus is a class 100 nowadays or something. His powers somehow helping brush off the force of Colossus' attack without his shield is just bad writing. Course, I cannot really believe too much since Marvel's strength class is beyond retarded with how inconsistent it can be.
Claremont wrote the story where he did it. It's a very famous and well regarded story as well. Happens in the Uncanny X-Men 114-116 arc with Magneto in the Volcanno. When Magneto has magnetoc energy inside of him it renders him durable well past class 100 attacks

While weakened
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/492/magcolagain3pg.jpg
http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/3473/maggoesh2hwithcolossus9xs.jpg
Against Hercules
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/5774/sgrip3pj.jpg
Against Rogue
http://img448.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magphysicallybeatsrogue4vt.jpg

Settling some other debates

Magneto deflects photons
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6231/magcontrolsphotons0ki.jpg
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/4339/tnoticehim9ea.jpg

Affecting matter at the molecular level
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/2610/magtakesonplasticandceramic7lu.jpg

[ShadowBoxing]

Magnetic powers used to take the pain of nuclear attack
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3559/magtakespain1fh.jpg
Physically attacking X-Men
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2320/magsgetsphysical7sp.jpg
he was able to take full power energy assault from Bishop who had absorbed energies of nearly all energy using X-Men and the energy of the said X-Men without shield…and was still able to talk.
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/9531/magtakesallenergyofxmen3gi.jpg
http://img448.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magphysicallybeatsrogue4vt.jpg
Magneto vs Avengers
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/MightilyOats/Magneto87.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/MightilyOats/Magneto88.jpg

[Nokio]

His reflexes may not be faster than thought...but I don't think it would be such a stretch to say he couldn't user his superspeed to get right next to Magneto with a punch before Magneto knew what hit him.

And the fact that Magneto could take a punch from Colossus and not get knocked out is retarded. Last time I checked...while an "Omega" mutant, he is still human in the sense that his body is as fragile as that of the average person. I've been hearing how Colossus is a class 100 nowadays or something. His powers somehow helping brush off the force of Colossus' attack without his shield is just bad writing. Course, I cannot really believe too much since Marvel's strength class is beyond retarded with how inconsistent it can be.


Well magneto's shield should already be up if he's getting ready to enter into a battle with the JLA. Why would mags confront the JLA and not have his shield up? Why would Supes attack him right off the bat unless Mags gives him reason to.

[TheCorpulent1]

There are other scans posted earlier that show Magneto commenting about a personal shield while there's no visible bubble or lines around him. I find it far more likely that he's simply using that same personal shield in the scans ShadowBoxing just posted than the idea that he's somehow superhumanly durable for no apparent reason.

[Nokio]

My god those scans are god awful, well not all but a lot of it is silly and should remain in the past. Magneto isn't invulnerabale, he pretty much has the body of a normal human. Mags can take punches from Collosses but a plastic bullet can pierce his skin? I remember reading an issue where someone pulled a gun on mags and he just knew that he would easily deflect the bullet away, but the bullets were plastic and Mags got shot. A lot of that stuff is bad writting.

[souloffire]

If Magneto is so powerful why isn't every hero in the marvel universe dead and Magneto ruler of the world?

[trustyside-kick]

Magnetic powers used to take the pain of nuclear attack
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3559/magtakespain1fh.jpg


That is just bad writing. I can look at him, and respect the power of his force field to an extant...but that is pushing it.


Physically attacking X-Men
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2320/magsgetsphysical7sp.jpg


That isn't impressive. So he can use his powers to give him a "magnetically-powered fists" kind of deal. Oh, and he was able to toss Wolvie. All of a sudden Wolvie is a high class hero? I know he is definitely a popular hero, but as far as his strength and endurance goes, he isn't high up there. He can lift like two tons the most. All of those heroes matter a fact, are do not have great durability; except for Rogue. But he does so with his little "fist power up" with his abilities. But I wouldn't compare Rogues durability with Superman's, therefore I'm not impressed with this scan.


he was able to take full power energy assault from Bishop who had absorbed energies of nearly all energy using X-Men and the energy of the said X-Men without shield…and was still able to talk.
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/9531/magtakesallenergyofxmen3gi.jpg
http://img448.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magphysicallybeatsrogue4vt.jpg

As TheCorpulent1 said, it appears he has some sort of a non-visible shield protecting him. All this proves is that he can withstand an energy blast and Iceman's blast. Since most of the arguement has been a talk about Supes VS Magneto really, how does their blasts compare to Supes?


Magneto vs Avengers
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/MightilyOats/Magneto87.jpg


All the members he messes with have some kind of metal for him to mess with. That is something we already know. How is this such an amazing feat for Magneto that shows he can pwn everyone?


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/MightilyOats/Magneto88.jpg

I don't recall their being any iron in the air. So I don't understand where Vision is talking about ferrous particles in the air...most of air is nitrogen and oxygen, along with a various amount of other elements that make a very small part of air, but none of those elements that make bearly a percentage of air is iron.

But how he holds back Thor with metal constructs and how he puts down Vision is something that just makes sense. Although, not impressive because it is obvious.

[TheCorpulent1]

Ugh, seeing Thor taken out of the fight by a bunch of metal barriers just reminds me of how pathetic he is in the Avengers' comics as opposed to his own. :(

[trustyside-kick]

Except for the Nuke thing...none of those scans show Magneto being as omnipotent as these guys claim.

[TheCorpulent1]

The nuke thing wasn't even Magneto's own power. He was being boosted by those giant machines you see him channeling his power through. :o

[trustyside-kick]

Also, looks like I skipped the first post of scans ShadowBoxing provided. Lemme go check em out. :ninja:

[trustyside-kick]

Claremont wrote the story where he did it. It's a very famous and well regarded story as well. Happens in the Uncanny X-Men 114-116 arc with Magneto in the Volcanno. When Magneto has magnetoc energy inside of him it renders him durable well past class 100 attacks

While weakened
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/492/magcolagain3pg.jpg
http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/3473/maggoesh2hwithcolossus9xs.jpg


Where at all in those panels does it talk about Magneto being able to take Colossus' punch because he stored magnetic energy within him? Do you have to provide more panels from that issue to support this? I don't see how that shows this occurring.


Against Hercules
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/5774/sgrip3pj.jpg


I'm not sure what you are trying to show us with this picture. Him breaking Hercules' hold on him? What class is Hercules'? As far as I am aware, mythology-based characters in the DCU are more powerful than the MU. So if Wondie is can take Hercules, than Supes can. So that would make Supes more powerful than MU's Hercules. If this is relating to what seems to be a debate over Magneto VS Supes, I don't think Hercules stacks up against Supes. I need more information about this panel before I can understand your argument using it.


Against Rogue
http://img448.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magphysicallybeatsrogue4vt.jpg

If there is a picture, I cannot see it.


Settling some other debates

Magneto deflects photons
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6231/magcontrolsphotons0ki.jpg


This is something we are already aware of. What is the purpose of this picture? We know that because he has power over the electromagnetic spectrum. You say it is in debate or has been, but if he has power over the Electromagnetic Spectrum...it shouldn't be. Course, some people could think it is dumb that he isn't restricted to only magnetism, and can also affect rays of light, and I am one of them. But I do not see the purpose in you posting this for any argument on your behalf.


http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/4339/tnoticehim9ea.jpg


All this shows is that he can bend the light around him to become invisible. Not sure what you are trying to prove when we knew he already could do this.


Affecting matter at the molecular level
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/2610/magtakesonplasticandceramic7lu.jpg

Aside from seeing him throw metal at a ship, and then causing an explosion causing the X-Men to become taken aback by the impact of the explosion, I do not quite understand what he does to the missiles. That doesn't make sense.

All in all, almost none of the panels that have been shown make sense to the argument.

[TheCorpulent1]

He disassembles them while they're coming towards him. That's actually kind of cool.

[trustyside-kick]

I'm just trying to understand why most of those scans were even shown.

[Damiean Dark]

I think hes trying to show Mags power he has probably the most varied use of power in the comic medium.

[trustyside-kick]

I know he can do quite a lot, but I don't see how it helps his argument. For the most part, lately the discussion has been the JLA VS Magneto, or Supes VS Magneto.

Since when does the invisible man automatically triumph over his opponents? Stuff like that, I don't see how it contributes to the argument since he and a few others have been just boasting about how powerful Mags is. I'm not trying to attack or anything, I just don't understand how those scans help.

[Flash Facts]

Also disassembling something does not = affecting it at a molecular level

[Phenomenal]

Except for the Nuke thing...none of those scans show Magneto being as omnipotent as these guys claim.

Nah, never said Magneto was anything great. I just posted scans of how he can dispose of Superman that's all.

Magneto has had his butt handed to him many a time.

[Anubis]

I think hes trying to show Mags power he has probably the most varied use of power in the comic medium.


Actually, that title goes to Telekinesis.

[TheCorpulent1]

Or energy manipulation. The Silver Surfer's done practically everything with his powers.

[Phenomenal]

Surfer could beat Superman as well. 7/10!

[TheCorpulent1]

Um... 10/10. Superman operates on a specific type of energy, so the Surfer could just drain him of it and reduce him to a normal man. Same way he's beaten the Hulk before.

[Phenomenal]

Yep, I know that. I was just saying that if Superman was ever to get into a physical confrontation with the Surfer he would win that.

[TheCorpulent1]

Or the Surfer could just drain him in the middle of their physical confrontation. :confused:

[Hush]

Yep, I know that. I was just saying that if Superman was ever to get into a physical confrontation with the Surfer he would win that.

I think your missing the part where the Surfer just takes the solar power from Supes and then defeats him.

[Phenomenal]

Or the Surfer could just drain him in the middle of their physical confrontation. :confused:

:up:

[Ultra-Herald9]

Yep, I know that. I was just saying that if Superman was ever to get into a physical confrontation with the Surfer he would win that.

Of course. Surfer is tailor made to beat on Superman. Captain Atom or Ion is a much fairer fight.

[TheCorpulent1]

Which Ion?

[Ultra-Herald9]

Which Ion?

The Later one. The first one would just be cheap.

[TheCorpulent1]

'kay, just checking.

[Ultra-Herald9]

Except for the Nuke thing...none of those scans show Magneto being as omnipotent as these guys claim.

Definitely. Colossus actually managed to punch him. These guys were making it sound like he couldn't be touched. If Big C can hit him then Flash definitely can. Except Flash will vibrate through and tickle his brain.

[Phenomenal]

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/492/magcolagain3pg.jpg
http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/3473/maggoesh2hwithcolossus9xs.jpg


Well, Flash could possibly blitz magneto, seeing what these clowns were doing to him.:o

[TheCorpulent1]

I think you meant "easily" instead of "possibly."

[Phenomenal]

yeah....but Flash has some really bad showings as well.

[TheCorpulent1]

Just like Magneto and virtually every other long-lived character. He also has some pretty incredible showings, and I don't think it's even remotely unreasonable to assume that if Nightcrawler and the Beast could catch Magneto off-guard with a fastball special, the Flash couldn't do the same at his own at more than 100,000 times their speed.

[Flash Facts]

The JLA's biggest advantage is their speed. Most of the proposed team is insanely faster then the proposed X-men team. The fight can and most likely would be over in less then a second.

[TheCorpulent1]

Except for the Phoenix's presence, which still means the fight would be over in less than a second, but also means that the X-Men would win.

[Silicon Surfer]

Since the physical body of Phoenix is only a construct anyway no physical attack whether by Flash, Superman, MM or anyone else will have any significant effect other than to possibly make Phoenix mad. Super speed or not physical attacks against a non physical entity are worthless.

[Flash Facts]

Possibly, Does The Phoenix also have super speed? If so how fast? Also didn't someone give her a hart attack or something?

Edit: But doesn't she need to get a new host once her Corporeal form is destroyed?

[Anubis]

If the X-Men get Phoenix then the JLA should get the original ION. It's only fair.

[TheCorpulent1]

That's what I said.

[Anubis]

I mean, when Phoenix was at her absolute most powerful, was she ever really an X-Man at the time? I don't think she should count. She was mostly an enemy when she was sporting the full phoenix deal. Ion, on the other hand, was fully in control of his actions, and was a member of the JLA for the entire time he was Godlike.

[trustyside-kick]

I think neither should have any business in this fight. Powerful characters? Yes, that is to be expected for both teams. Omnipotent/Cosmically powerful characters? Hell no.

Both rosters need adjustments. This versus thread just sucks. I propose someone more in tune with both teams and knowledge of the members should make a new thread with a new roster for both. Then maybe we would have some interesting debates.

[TheCorpulent1]

I mean, when Phoenix was at her absolute most powerful, was she ever really an X-Man at the time? I don't think she should count. She was mostly an enemy when she was sporting the full phoenix deal. Ion, on the other hand, was fully in control of his actions, and was a member of the JLA for the entire time he was Godlike.
Technically, although I think he got the Ion power and ditched it without really doing much with the JLA. I remember a cover of Ion and Superman mean-mugging each other, and he helped John Stewart out, but that was about it.

[Anubis]

He stopped an alien invasion by himself while he was with the JLA at the watchtower having their briefing. Bat's was all like "This is gonna be big, they've got weapons that could take out Superman, and a nearly endless armada. We're gonna have to..."

And Kyle was like "It's okay guys, I took care of them. Supes, go get me a coke or something, I'm kinda parched."

[TheCorpulent1]

Haha, I missed that issue, I guess. I gotta read that sometime.

I think my favorite thing about Kyle as Ion the first time around was that he could literally be in several places at once.

[Anubis]

I know, He kept a virtual planet Israel from committing a single act of violence for like a week.

[TheCorpulent1]

Original Ion was teh hotness. :up:

[Anubis]

But alas, it could never last. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, he needed his humanity back. Think about it: Kyle with a custom-made, super-badass ring, his awesome Jim Lee costume, and his humanity intact; or The Dark Ion Saga. Which would you prefer? :dry:

[Anubis]

.....Bad-ass Jim Lee costume, Humanity Kyle.

[TheCorpulent1]

You know it, son.

[Silicon Surfer]

The most powerful version of Phoenix was the one in the M'Kraan crystal. It was a lot more powerful than Dark Phoenix who is #2 in power. Dark Phoenix was simply the most uninhibited and dramatic version. Jean was an active X-Man in both incarnations.

[Anubis]

It was certainly an awesome week though. Starving Africans got fed. Alien babies didn't get blowed up by alien religious nuts, Superman and Batman got pwned by the awesomeness of Rayner, who did a job that they possibly couldn't have pulled off without even getting up from his seat. Good times.

[Anubis]

The most powerful version of Phoenix was the one in the M'Kraan crystal. It was a lot more powerful than Dark Phoenix who is #2 in power. Dark Phoenix was simply the most uninhibited and dramatic version. Jean was an active X-Man in both incarnations.


I'll have to take your word for it on that M'Kraan crap. But when your own teamates decide it's time to take you out, you're off the team.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that's a pretty standard rule of thumb there. Teammates who are actively trying to kill you really aren't your teammates anymore.

[Flash Facts]

I think my favorite thing about Kyle as Ion the first time around was that he could literally be in several places at once.


If I'm not mistaken Wally has accomplished a similar feat also. While he was a member of the JLE and the JLA he fought on both teams at the same time in different places.

[TheCorpulent1]

No, Wally moved so quickly that it appeared as if he were in two places at once. Kyle as Ion was literally in multiple places thinking, seeing, and comprehending everything at each location simultaneously. His brain operated on higher levels thanks to all of the power in him.

[fifthfiend]

If I'm not mistaken Wally has accomplished a similar feat also. While he was a member of the JLE and the JLA he fought on both teams at the same time in different places.

Yeah, but Wally never saved any alien planets while he was also back on earth ****ing his girlfriend.

[Flash Facts]

No, Wally moved so quickly that it appeared as if he were in two places at once. Kyle as Ion was literally in multiple places thinking, seeing, and comprehending everything at each location simultaneously. His brain operated on higher levels thanks to all of the power in him.

Thats why I said similar not the same.

Yeah, but Wally never saved any alien planets while he was also back on earth ****ing his girlfriend.

Very true and really that tops all other feats doesn't :word:

[Flash Facts]

After looking at the scans again it doesn't seems quite so clear cut

http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlasfo2004dvp16cq8.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlasfo2004dvp17io1.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlasfo2004dvp18aq7.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlasfo2004dvp19uo8.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlasfo2004dvp20yl5.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlasfo2004dvp21ra3.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlasfo2004dvp22io2.jpg
http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlasfo2004dvp23nl3.jpg

Wally also seems to be in multiple places thinking, seeing, and comprehending everything at each location simultaneously. Its debatable I guess.

Edit: The links should work now. Thanks for letting me know and for telling me in such a polite manner ;)

[fifthfiend]

Your links are ****ed up, it looks like the ellipses got transposed into the actual hyperlinks.

[Ultra-Herald9]

Kyle as Ion the first time around was completely omnipresent. He wasn't just several places at once as he later found out that he was everywhere! H could be anywhere in literally no time. He could feel and know everthing and as the Spectre told him he could remake th universe as he saw fit or even wipe it out.

The second time around the Guardians seemed to imply that he was somehow even more powerful. He just wasn't omnipresent anymore which washis main problem with being Ion the first time around. But it was pretty much later comfirmed that he wasn't as powerful.

[Nokio]

Nah, never said Magneto was anything great. I just posted scans of how he can dispose of Superman that's all.

Magneto has had his butt handed to him many a time.


You and others just act like Superman is a push over. Magneto may beat him or Superman may beat mags. Isn't Hyperion similar to Superman in power? Well I'm pretty sure he is and he fought Magneto and killed him in the Exiles books.

[The Leaguer]

God the X-Men suck.

[Kitsune]

God the X-Men suck.

Wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to engage in fellatio with Rogue?

[The Leaguer]

Not if you were an X-Men. Then it would be the sweet release of death.

[Kitsune]

Not if you were an X-Men. Then it would be the sweet release of death.

No, you'd end up in a coma with your mind inside Rogue's body possibly for many years.

[The Leaguer]

Still better than being an X-Man.

[Whirlysplat]

Um... 10/10. Superman operates on a specific type of energy, so the Surfer could just drain him of it and reduce him to a normal man. Same way he's beaten the Hulk before.

You say this but......

In any comic Superman would win! Furthermore when has supes ever worried about powersets. T-vo for the win!

;)

[Whirlysplat]

God the X-Men suck.

I also greatly dislike the Xmen.

[Damiean Dark]

I dislike JLA and DC in general they have no concept of character design and have relied on Batman to prop them up for the last 20+ years WB has absolutly no faith in any of the characters baring supes and bats and they have the worst villains in existence especially in comparison to there supposed nemesisses Flash is incredibly powerful who does he battle? Captain ******* cold, superman is one of the most powerful of all heroes who does he have to test him? Toyman,bizarro,lex luthor all crap villains who you know dont have chance in hell of beating him. Batman is the only hero with any good villains and of them all only joker and twoface (and possibly ras al ghul) have any development beyond the gimmick they are based on its shamefull. DC doesnt realise a goood villain is as important as a good hero

[CaptainClown]

Sinestro Corp? Superboy Prime? Lex Luthor? Braniac? Anti-monitor?

[Damiean Dark]

Boring boring BORING braniac has been done, luthor has been done to death, Darkseid has been beating like a carpet on to many occasions so he isnt a credible threat anymore, prime is a cheap knock off (i have a great idea for a villain a anti superman brilliant!) and sinestro is just an evil green lantern. DC made supes to powerful when he was created you know he will never be beaten by his rogues gallery. WHATS DCs OBSESSION WITH VILLAINS THAT ARE EXACTLY LIKE THE HEROS BUT EVIL?.

[CaptainClown]

uh huh Doomsday? I think I would respect your opinion if the way you presented it didn't seem so angry and just filled to the brim with pro-marvel bias.

[The Question]

I dislike JLA and DC in general they have no concept of character design and have relied on Batman to prop them up for the last 20+ years WB has absolutly no faith in any of the characters baring supes and bats and they have the worst villains in existence especially in comparison to there supposed nemesisses Flash is incredibly powerful who does he battle? Captain ******* cold, superman is one of the most powerful of all heroes who does he have to test him? Toyman,bizarro,lex luthor all crap villains who you know dont have chance in hell of beating him. Batman is the only hero with any good villains and of them all only joker and twoface (and possibly ras al ghul) have any development beyond the gimmick they are based on its shamefull. DC doesnt realise a goood villain is as important as a good hero

1) Superman has great villains. They've been used poorly in recent years, but they've also been used very well. And they can totally stand a chance against him. Especially Parasite, Metallo, and yes, Luthor. He doesn't have powers, but he is much smarter than Superman, which doesn't lend itself to imediate wins, but in the long run is much more dangerous than super strength ever could be.

2) Did you just speak ill of Captain Cold? Get out of my house, sir. :cmad:

[fifthfiend]

God the X-Men suck.

This thread sucks.

[Nokio]

I dislike JLA and DC in general they have no concept of character design and have relied on Batman to prop them up for the last 20+ years WB has absolutly no faith in any of the characters baring supes and bats and they have the worst villains in existence especially in comparison to there supposed nemesisses Flash is incredibly powerful who does he battle? Captain ******* cold, superman is one of the most powerful of all heroes who does he have to test him? Toyman,bizarro,lex luthor all crap villains who you know dont have chance in hell of beating him. Batman is the only hero with any good villains and of them all only joker and twoface (and possibly ras al ghul) have any development beyond the gimmick they are based on its shamefull. DC doesnt realise a goood villain is as important as a good hero

Have to agree with you on the villians. Marvel in general has better charcters. Their villians are actually developed. Dc development over all is mediocre. The best development i saw and where the villians were actually made interesting was on Morrison's run of the JLA. DC is getting better but marvel still beats them by light years. I like DC by the way.

[The Question]

Have to agree with you on the villians. Marvel in general has better charcters. Their villians are actually developed. Dc development over all is mediocre. The best development i saw and where the villians were actually made interesting was on Morrison's run of the JLA. DC is getting better but marvel still beats them by light years. I like DC by the way.

I will bet anyone to read Geoff Johns' run on The Flash and tell me that the character developement for DC's villains is mediocre.

[Flash Facts]

The Flash's Rouges seem pretty developed to me.

[CaptainClown]

any good flash graphic novels to read? I had one i don't know where it is now but it was with all the flashes vs the cobra people wally like becomes lightening or something

[Kitsune]

Still better than being an X-Man.

You'd be part of Rogue who is still an X-Man

[The Leaguer]

Being a part of an X-Man is better than being an X-Man.

[Whirlysplat]

I dislike JLA and DC in general they have no concept of character design and have relied on Batman to prop them up for the last 20+ years WB has absolutly no faith in any of the characters baring supes and bats and they have the worst villains in existence especially in comparison to there supposed nemesisses Flash is incredibly powerful who does he battle? Captain ******* cold, superman is one of the most powerful of all heroes who does he have to test him? Toyman,bizarro,lex luthor all crap villains who you know dont have chance in hell of beating him. Batman is the only hero with any good villains and of them all only joker and twoface (and possibly ras al ghul) have any development beyond the gimmick they are based on its shamefull. DC doesnt realise a goood villain is as important as a good hero

Flame Post!

[Anubis]

You can always tell the crazys by the fact that they never seem to use any punctuation.

[ShadowBoxing]

I will bet anyone to read Geoff Johns' run on The Flash and tell me that the character developement for DC's villains is mediocre.
That's fairly recent, and while everyone keeps telling me Flash is DC's Spider-Man...it's hardly the case. Stan Lee did a much better job grounding all his characters in the beginning, in no small part due to the fact that Stan spent an inordinate amount of time writing about his characters out of costume.

At the end of the day it seems to me DC is still a very story and mythology driven company. Flash is still very much tied to this. Even though Wally is more 'common man' he still has that whole Flash legacy/Speed Force mythology tied to him. And to top it off most of his villains are still monikers.

I agree DC recently has taken some of what Marvel did in the sixties and eighties and synthesized it with their Universe, but it's still a far cry from having a Dr.Doom, Dr.Ocotopus, Green Goblin or Kingpin in their ranks (or that is to say, in that number. DC, of course, will always have the Joker)

I believe Black Adam, Superboy Prime, and Luthor have all been given the potential ability to step in and fill that gap

The other major misstep I think DC keeps making is overlooking their B and C-List characters. Marvel does a great job of promoting their characters and casting a wide net, hence them not having a "Big 7". DC needs to start doing this more often, i.e. stop killing off characters like the Question and replacing them with ethno-friendly characters no one cares about.

[The Question]

That's fairly recent, and while everyone keeps telling me Flash is DC's Spider-Man...it's hardly the case. Stan Lee did a much better job grounding all his characters in the beginning, in no small part due to the fact that Stan spent an inordinate amount of time writing about his characters out of costume.

At the end of the day it seems to me DC is still a very story and mythology driven company. Flash is still very much tied to this. Even though Wally is more 'common man' he still has that whole Flash legacy/Speed Force mythology tied to him. And to top it off most of his villains are still monikers.

I agree DC recently has taken some of what Marvel did in the sixties and eighties and synthesized it with their Universe, but it's still a far cry from having a Dr.Doom, Dr.Ocotopus, Green Goblin or Kingpin in their ranks (or that is to say, in that number. DC, of course, will always have the Joker)

I believe Black Adam, Superboy Prime, and Luthor have all been given the potential ability to step in and fill that gap

I'm much more interested in The Flash's Rogues than wether or not he's "DC's Spider-Man." Captain Cold is a great character. As for Black Adam and Luthor, I think they've both been, at one time or another, just as good characters as Doom, Octavious, or Osborn.

[ShadowBoxing]

I'm much more interested in The Flash's Rogues than wether or not he's "DC's Spider-Man." Captain Cold is a great character. As for Black Adam and Luthor, I think they've both been, at one time or another, just as good characters as Doom, Octavious, or Osborn.As far as I know Black Adam was a virtually ignored and underwritten villain until IC, and my friend, a 'Big Red Cheese' fan says as much.

As for Lex Luthor, I really felt he was incredibly inconsistent until Morrison and Bruce Timm started using him. They married that whole Businessman/mad scientist personality. IMO, John Bryne failed with the character, and I've was never much for Pre-Crisis Lex until they teamed him with Brainiac...but the fact he needed to accomplice kinda took him down a notch.

Now that they've combined his retro self with his reinvented self (the way Timm and Morrison did) I think they've created a great villain. However since Superman's origin has yet to be retold in canon it remains to be seen how he is used...I'm betting though the new origin will make him a Smallville type Lex.

[The Question]

As far as I know Black Adam was a virtually ignored and underwritten villain until IC, and my friend, a 'Big Red Cheese' fan says as much.

Then you should read JSA. He was a pretty big character in that for a while.

As for Lex Luthor, I really felt he was incredibly inconsistent until Morrison and Bruce Timm started using him. They married that whole Businessman/mad scientist personality. IMO, John Bryne failed with the character, and I've was never much for Pre-Crisis Lex until they teamed him with Brainiac...but the fact he needed to accomplice kinda took him down a notch.

Now that they've combined his retro self with his reinvented self (the way Timm and Morrison did) I think they've created a great villain. However since Superman's origin has yet to be retold in canon it remains to be seen how he is used...I'm betting though the new origin will make him a Smallville type Lex.

I thought the new version of Lex was pretty lame. He's just a two dimensional mad man. Read Lex Luthor: Man of Steel. Best Lex Luthor story ever.

[Ultra-Herald9]

That's fairly recent, and while everyone keeps telling me Flash is DC's Spider-Man...it's hardly the case. Stan Lee did a much better job grounding all his characters in the beginning, in no small part due to the fact that Stan spent an inordinate amount of time writing about his characters out of costume.

But look at Spider-Man has changed so much just to appeal to this generation. To me its kinda sad really. He is nearly nothing like he used to be.

At the end of the day it seems to me DC is still a very story and mythology driven company. Flash is still very much tied to this. Even though Wally is more 'common man' he still has that whole Flash legacy/Speed Force mythology tied to him. And to top it off most of his villains are still monikers.

Whats wrong with Mythology and Legacies? I think it makes for a exponentially stronger universe.

I agree DC recently has taken some of what Marvel did in the sixties and eighties and synthesized it with their Universe, but it's still a far cry from having a Dr.Doom, Dr.Ocotopus, Green Goblin or Kingpin in their ranks (or that is to say, in that number. DC, of course, will always have the Joker)

I really don't see what is so majestic about Green Goblin or Doom. This is coming from someone who was a hardcore Marvel Fanboy little more than a year ago.Marvel doesn't even seem to know what to do with their charcters anymore. As for villains who have really started to shine in recent years....

Doctor Light All the Flash rouges
Deathstroke Lex(He is really making a comeback)
Calculator Vandal Savage
Sinestro Despero
Catman Sivana
Egg Fu......

On the Marvel side....

Kingpin kinda isn't up to much. What has Doom done recently?
Green Goblin is on Some knock off Suicide Squad. Loki might be back but he was long gone for a while. Mandarin is dead. blah blah....

From House of M to Civil War to WWh it seems like Marvel is more bent on showing how *****y and grumpy marvel heroes are towards each other then making the villians great again.

Dc just really seems to be churning out the threats to the point where it honestly looks like the DC heroes are gonna be supremely screwed in a few months as the still haven't fully recovered from old wounds. Plus I hear my main man Per Degaton is gonna be kicking some ass soon.
I believe Black Adam, Superboy Prime, and Luthor have all been given the potential ability to step in and fill that gap

The other major misstep I think DC keeps making is overlooking their B and C-List characters. Marvel does a great job of promoting their characters and casting a wide net, hence them not having a "Big 7". DC needs to start doing this more often, i.e. stop killing off characters like the Question and replacing them with ethno-friendly characters no one cares about.

And also I am going to have to disagree on you big time on this one. I believe that DC is not only trying to emphasize the depths of their universe by giving its B and C listers some page-time but they are also bringing back old characters in new roles that are driving the DCU in a pretty cool direction. Look at how the JUSTICE LEAGUE and JUSTICE SOCIETY is filled with B and C listers for example. Booster Gold is now the greatest hero of all!? C'mon give DC somore cred.


I dunno, I still like both but I am leaning a bit towards DC nowadays.

[trustyside-kick]

Green Goblin being such an amazing villain? I can understand that a while back...but now he is just a plot device. I would really like to have these so-called great and developed Marvel villains listed out if you guys find the time. Will I deny there being good ones? No, because both companies have them. I'm just curious how grand and long this list of Marvel villains can actually be.

[Phenomenal]

Who would win, Imperiex or Onslaught (full power)!?

Imperiex would possibly pwn Galactus

[CaptainClown]

Ash Williams rules all

[Flash Facts]

"Good... bad... I'm the guy with the gun."

[Whirlysplat]

You can always tell the crazys by the fact that they never seem to use any punctuation.

Not always, I think some crazy posters use a great deal of punctuation! Well that's "my opinion" anyway!

:)

[Kitsune]

Not always, I think some crazy posters use a great deal of punctuation! Well that's "my opinion" anyway!

:)

THAT!!!! IS !!! NOT!!! TRUE!!!!
:oldrazz:

[fifthfiend]

Seriously why won't this horrible thread just die?

[Kitsune]

Seriously why won't this horrible thread just die?

Because people keep posting to it.

[fifthfiend]

Well they should stop!

[Whirlysplat]

THAT!!!! IS !!! NOT!!! TRUE!!!!
:oldrazz:

lol

[Kitsune]

Well they should stop!

Yes

[ShadowBoxing]

I dunno, I still like both but I am leaning a bit towards DC nowadays.
I still read them, but they're strength simply isn't in their characters. It's in their stories.
But look at Spider-Man has changed so much just to appeal to this generation. To me its kinda sad really. He is nearly nothing like he used to be.

No superhero, not Batman, not Superman, not Flash, not the X-Men are anything like "they used to be". But Parker still very much is a hard luck hero. The scenery may have changed, but that's what characterization is "evolving your character". Quesada may be bad when it comes to "mega events" (although DC is now just one huge mega event called 'Crisis') but at least, like Stan, he moves the characters somewhere. DC, I mean despite the fact that they retcon once every ten years, maybe update powers and origins, rarely move their characters in setting. Clark is still a reporter, Bruce is still a millionaire/billionaire. Hell, part of what made Lex so interesting is all the hoops they've made him jump through. DC far too often just puts a new name behind the mask, or revamps continuity everytime they want something new.

So, in answer to your observation, not I don't think it's "sad". I've held a ton of jobs, had a ton of relationships and done stupid sh** and messed things up...and guess what so have Daredevil, Spider-Man, and the X-Men.
Whats wrong with Mythology and Legacies? I think it makes for a exponentially stronger universe.

Maybe, maybe not. Marvel currently, has more movies than DC, and I think part of the problem is aside from Batman and Superman, most DC characters aren't that strong. That's why they constantly argue over John Stewart versus Hal versus Kyle. Or whether it ought to be Barry or Wally in a movie. Or how this and that should be adapted on film.

I feel like DC is very "retro" and thus it's very immitatiable...but has a harder and harder time appealing to an ever changing audience. And I think largely it's because they don't trust their talent. The Charleton heroes, for example, get far less play than they deserve. As does Aquaman these days, as does several other C and D listers.
I really don't see what is so majestic about Green Goblin or Doom. This is coming from someone who was a hardcore Marvel Fanboy little more than a year ago.Marvel doesn't even seem to know what to do with their charcters anymore. As for villains who have really started to shine in recent years....

Doctor Light All the Flash rouges
Deathstroke Lex(He is really making a comeback)
Calculator Vandal Savage
Sinestro Despero
Catman Sivana
Egg Fu......

On the Marvel side....

Kingpin kinda isn't up to much. What has Doom done recently?
Green Goblin is on Some knock off Suicide Squad. Loki might be back but he was long gone for a while. Mandarin is dead. blah blah....

Loki while be back in a few months, but that's besides the point. Villains don't get used all that often. Most fanboys lose sight of this for some reason. For example, Stan Lee introduced Vulture way back in issue 2 of ASM after a followup appearance, he wasn't seen again until the Romita run during the Blackie Drago storyline...which was something like issue 40 or 50. So years went by before we saw a top tier, in Stan Lee's mind, Spider villain. Villains don't need to appear constantly, in fact, they never have.

On the Marvel side who is "great" as a villain
Doom (active)
Green Goblin (active)
Bullseye (active)
Kingpin (jailed -active)
Mr Fear (IMO)
Elektra and the Hand (anti-heroish - active)
Mr Sinister (active)
Magneto (active - suspected)
Dr Octopus (whereabouts unknown - rumored to be showing up after BND)
Citizen V (around)
Red Skull (active - Brubaker arc)
Fautus is proving interesting
Sentinels (okay - technically not characters, but still cool)
Juggernaut (villain again)
Sabretooth (dead)
I personally like Cassandra Nova...but I'm not defending her to you guys.
Apocalypse (granted his last storyarc sucked)
Kang (pretty kickass in YA - presumed dead)
Galactus (who could forget)
Thanos
Taskmaster (active - IMO a great)
Loki (returning)
Mysterio (dead)
Kraven the Hunter (dead)
....and of course virtually all of Spidey's rogues.

Remember most of the Marvel villains have very personal grudges, whereac DC villains are almost like cosmically opposing forces. (i.e genius versus strength. Criminal versus lawman. Speed versus Cold. Yellow versus Green).
And also I am going to have to disagree on you big time on this one. I believe that DC is not only trying to emphasize the depths of their universe by giving its B and C listers some page-time but they are also bringing back old characters in new roles that are driving the DCU in a pretty cool direction. Look at how the JUSTICE LEAGUE and JUSTICE SOCIETY is filled with B and C listers for example.Booster Gold is now the greatest hero of all!? C'mon give DC somore cred

Booster isn't "the greatest hero of all"...only in his own, small time title is he that. You're trying to define DC by the exceptions not the rule. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, last time I checked are still the trinity and a Big Seven of sorts still exist and define the Justice League ranks more or less. And I gave them "some cred" for SP, BA and a few others. But look at books like the 52 and Countdown...which are pretty much devoted to killing off unused heroes...those are huge mistakes. Bruce Timm so far is the only one with his head on straight, make the less powerful heroes take front and center roles sometimes. Look at who their really pushing. Batman and Superman, and the usual Leaguers. DC may have one Booster book, and one Blue Beetle. But Marvel has Iron Fist, NA, Frontlines, Black Panther, the Order, New Warriors and popular books like X-Men and Avengers which aren't made up of "the best and most powerful"...they produce far more titles with far more characters.[/FONT]

[fifthfiend]

I still read them, but they're strength simply isn't in their characters. It's in their stories.

No superhero, not Batman, not Superman, not Flash, not the X-Men are anything like "they used to be". But Parker still very much is a hard luck hero. The scenery may have changed, but that's what characterization is "evolving your character". Quesada may be bad when it comes to "mega events" (although DC is now just one huge mega event called 'Crisis') but at least, like Stan, he moves the characters somewhere. DC, I mean despite the fact that they retcon once every ten years, maybe update powers and origins, rarely move their characters in setting. Clark is still a reporter, Bruce is still a millionaire/billionaire. Hell, part of what made Lex so interesting is all the hoops they've made him jump through. DC far too often just puts a new name behind the mask, or revamps continuity everytime they want something new.

So, in answer to your observation, not I don't think it's "sad". I've held a ton of jobs, had a ton of relationships and done stupid sh** and messed things up...and guess what so have Daredevil, Spider-Man, and the X-Men.

Maybe, maybe not. Marvel currently, has more movies than DC, and I think part of the problem is aside from Batman and Superman, most DC characters aren't that strong. That's why they constantly argue over John Stewart versus Hal versus Kyle. Or whether it ought to be Barry or Wally in a movie. Or how this and that should be adapted on film.

I feel like DC is very "retro" and thus it's very immitatiable...but has a harder and harder time appealing to an ever changing audience. And I think largely it's because they don't trust their talent. The Charleton heroes, for example, get far less play than they deserve. As does Aquaman these days, as does several other C and D listers.

Loki while be back in a few months, but that's besides the point. Villains don't get used all that often. Most fanboys lose sight of this for some reason. For example, Stan Lee introduced Vulture way back in issue 2 of ASM after a followup appearance, he wasn't seen again until the Romita run during the Blackie Drago storyline...which was something like issue 40 or 50. So years went by before we saw a top tier, in Stan Lee's mind, Spider villain. Villains don't need to appear constantly, in fact, they never have.

On the Marvel side who is "great" as a villain
Doom (active)
Green Goblin (active)
Bullseye (active)
Kingpin (jailed -active)
Mr Fear (IMO)
Elektra and the Hand (anti-heroish - active)
Mr Sinister (active)
Magneto (active - suspected)
Dr Octopus (whereabouts unknown - rumored to be showing up after BND)
Citizen V (around)
Red Skull (active - Brubaker arc)
Fautus is proving interesting
Sentinels (okay - technically not characters, but still cool)
Juggernaut (villain again)
Sabretooth (dead)
I personally like Cassandra Nova...but I'm not defending her to you guys.
Apocalypse (granted his last storyarc sucked)
Kang (pretty kickass in YA - presumed dead)
Galactus (who could forget)
Thanos
Taskmaster (active - IMO a great)
Loki (returning)
Mysterio (dead)
Kraven the Hunter (dead)
....and of course virtually all of Spidey's rogues.

Remember most of the Marvel villains have very personal grudges, whereac DC villains are almost like cosmically opposing forces. (i.e genius versus strength. Criminal versus lawman. Speed versus Cold. Yellow versus Green).

Booster isn't "the greatest hero of all"...only in his own, small time title is he that. You're trying to define DC by the exceptions not the rule. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, last time I checked are still the trinity and a Big Seven of sorts still exist and define the Justice League ranks more or less. And I gave them "some cred" for SP, BA and a few others. But look at books like the 52 and Countdown...which are pretty much devoted to killing off unused heroes...those are huge mistakes. Bruce Timm so far is the only one with his head on straight, make the less powerful heroes take front and center roles sometimes. Look at who their really pushing. Batman and Superman, and the usual Leaguers. DC may have one Booster book, and one Blue Beetle. But Marvel has Iron Fist, NA, Frontlines, Black Panther, the Order, New Warriors and popular books like X-Men and Avengers which aren't made up of "the best and most powerful"...they produce far more titles with far more characters.[/FONT]

STOP IT!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Damiean Dark]

Maybe, maybe not. Marvel currently, has more movies than DC, and I think part of the problem is aside from Batman and Superman, most DC characters aren't that strong. That's why they constantly argue over John Stewart versus Hal versus Kyle. Or whether it ought to be Barry or Wally in a movie. Or how this and that should be adapted on film.

I feel like DC is very "retro" and thus it's very immitatiable...but has a harder and harder time appealing to an ever changing audience. And I think largely it's because they don't trust their talent. The Charleton heroes, for example, get far less play than they deserve. As does Aquaman these days, as does several other C and D listers.

Eaxctly Marvel has a more evenly spread roster of interesting heros/villains you only have to look at the title boards on superherohype to see boards on Xmen,Iron man, hulk, etc. while DC has boards on bats and supes.

[fifthfiend]

STOP MAKING POSTS IN THIS HORRIBLE THREAD! :mad:

[trustyside-kick]

I appreciate you listing out the list of villains you think are so-called great and developed in the MU, ShadowBoxing, even if you weren't directly responding to me...but isn't a huge factor in determining such a thing in tastes and preferences? Now, sure, there are some that you simply cannot deny...but I feel a majority of the list--were anyone to comply one--would be mainly of characters they seemed to be great.

That's why I disagree with the overall argument about one company finding more villains interesting than the other. No matter how hard you try, eventually it comes down to bias thinking.

[Whirlysplat]

I appreciate you listing out the list of villains you think are so-called great and developed in the MU, ShadowBoxing, even if you weren't directly responding to me...but isn't a huge factor in determining such a thing in tastes and preferences? Now, sure, there are some that you simply cannot deny...but I feel a majority of the list--were anyone to comply one--would be mainly of characters they seemed to be great.

That's why I disagree with the overall argument about one company finding more villains interesting than the other. No matter how hard you try, eventually it comes down to bias thinking.

Agreed, Shadow boxings argument is a "straw man".

[Hole Shot]

What makes you think that Batman could beat Wolverine? Please give me an explanation becuase I'm not buying the prep time thing. Wolverine would cut Batman to bits and pieces. He is stronger faster and more of a hunter. I don't want to hear about prep time cuase it doesn't always work. The only reason he beat Superman is becuase of kryptonite.


Bat-Wolverine Repellent. DuH!

[MagicPrime]

Beat is different than Kill.

The punisher beat wolverine by shooting him in the crotch with a shotgun and parking a steamroller ontop of him.

So Batman could just fight and dodge wolverine, place a beacon on him, and have the Batwing crash right into him. Kill him? no - knock him out for a while enough for batman to be considered the victor? I think so.

[Damiean Dark]

I actually think Wolvie would win his over a century of experiance would be too much for bats he wins on every front: agility, strentgh, stamina, has a animal sense of hearing and smell, perfect for hunting and tracking. in a straight battle wolvie wins.

[TheCorpulent1]

He also fights like a barroom brawler nine times out of ten. I know he's supposed to have lots of training, but he rarely ever is portrayed using any of it.

[CaptainClown]

I think Bats best bet of survival for a fight with wolverine would be swinging around wolverine until someone else declaws kitty.

[TheCorpulent1]

Or he could just hit him with a bunch of exploding batarangs, leaving Wolverine to heal off on the sidelines for a few minutes.

[CaptainClown]

oh ya that, there are quite a few ways Batman could beat Wolverine is the overall point though.

[KAD]

He also fights like a barroom brawler nine times out of ten. I know he's supposed to have lots of training, but he rarely ever is portrayed using any of it.

Except when fighting another accomplished fighter

[TheCorpulent1]

Like the Punisher? Or Sabretooth, who soundly kicked his ass numerous times? I'm not saying he's never portrayed as a good fighter, but the instances he's not seem to outweigh the times he is to me. I haven't read Wolverine comics in years, though, so he may be fighting like a world-class martial artist all the time now.

[Anubis]

Nope, still a boozed up slasher.

[trustyside-kick]

I hate when that happens. So and so is supposed to be such a skilled fighter, and then of course he never shows it. I guess it would require the artists for such characters to have to be familiar with certain martial arts to fix this, huh? That would certainly up the criteria the next time an artist wants to tackle one of the proclaimed awesome fighters.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, no, it would require the writers and artists to at least devise a scene where Wolverine doesn't run in front of someone much stronger and more powerful than he is and try to slash them with reckless abandon, only to get tossed away like nothing for his troubles. I don't need to see authentic martial arts moves to consider someone a good fighter. I need to see them not get knocked around with ease by everyone they fight.

[Infinity9999x]

Like the Punisher? Or Sabretooth, who soundly kicked his ass numerous times? I'm not saying he's never portrayed as a good fighter, but the instances he's not seem to outweigh the times he is to me. I haven't read Wolverine comics in years, though, so he may be fighting like a world-class martial artist all the time now.

Nope, they still write him like he has no training. In fact, they write him like a glorified punisher now. He doesn't even try to restrain his berserker rages anymore, and they barley talk about his honor and all that. Add that onto the fact that now he can apparently heal back from just a skeleton...yeah they've pretty much F*ed up his character.

Now, if it's today's Wolverine fighting Batman, then Batman is in trouble because Wolverine basically can't be killed because his healing ability is at ridiculous levels now a days.

If Wolverine is written the way he used to be, then he would definitely not have as much of an edge in regards to the whole healing factor, but he would also fight with much more skill.

Either way in a confrontation where they just meet up and start fighting, then I'd say Wolverine would win because Bats isn't going to be chucking bat-grenades at him because he doesn't know that Wolverine will live. If Batman has his all powerful prep time, then it would be a different story.

[Damiean Dark]

Whats that graphic novel when Wolvie fights spiderman? the one when he is protecting some girl from assasins i remember reading it yonks ago wolvie held his own against someone way out of his leage in terms of speed, strentgh, stamina ect its the way people write that perticular character at a particuler time.

[sandwraith]

Maybe we should try two different teams of JLA and X-Men considering the number of inactive members both groups have.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, if you're gonna include inactive members, the JLA expands to include virtually the entire DC superhero community, while the X-Men expands to include lots of mutants but not much else.

[moraldeficiency]

Whats that graphic novel when Wolvie fights spiderman? the one when he is protecting some girl from assasins i remember reading it yonks ago wolvie held his own against someone way out of his leage in terms of speed, strentgh, stamina ect its the way people write that perticular character at a particuler time.

It was Spider-Man vs. Wolverine. The end fight was pretty good. Pete held back but then was forced to go all out. He had a shot to kill the furball but he couldn't do it, then wolvie had him but let him go. It ended with pete actually killing the girl by mistake. Pretty good read.

[TheCorpulent1]

I've never liked fights like that. The idea of someone like Wolverine even being able to keep up with someone like Spider-Man, let alone give him a good fight, makes no sense to me.

[Silicon Surfer]

Wolverine didn't give Spidey a good fight in that story. All he did was endure the beating Spidey gave him. Spidey beat on him at will and Wolvie couldn't lay a claw on him.

[nimrod]

I've never liked fights like that. The idea of someone like Wolverine even being able to keep up with someone like Spider-Man, let alone give him a good fight, makes no sense to me.

Well said.

[Ultra-Herald9]

I've never liked fights like that. The idea of someone like Wolverine even being able to keep up with someone like Spider-Man, let alone give him a good fight, makes no sense to me.


Yet.... he was made to fight the Hulk. How ironic.:csad:

[Flash Facts]

Yea, I hate it when popularity overrides all logic and the character's actual powers. I remember reading some magazine in which fans voted who would win in a fight between various superhero and thinking wtf! Most of the outcomes made no sense, people with no powers beating metahumans ect. As a matter of fact I think Wolverine beat The Flash in it. :huh:

[TheCorpulent1]

Yet.... he was made to fight the Hulk. How ironic.:csad:
Yeah, he was a terribly conceived character on that basis.

[trustyside-kick]

Just like Wolvie beating Lobo...

[moraldeficiency]

Wolverine didn't give Spidey a good fight in that story. All he did was endure the beating Spidey gave him. Spidey beat on him at will and Wolvie couldn't lay a claw on him.

That's about right.

[Damiean Dark]

Yea, I hate it when popularity overrides all logic and the character's actual powers. I remember reading some magazine in which fans voted who would win in a fight between various superhero and thinking wtf! Most of the outcomes made no sense, people with no powers beating metahumans ect. As a matter of fact I think Wolverine beat The Flash in it. :huh:

So by that logic wolverine would beat Batman because he has a healing factor is far stronger faster and has more endurance?.

[Vanguard07]

So by that logic wolverine would beat Batman because he has a healing factor is far stronger faster and has more endurance?.


I'm not sure what you're argument is supposed to be but yes by all rights Wolverine would beat Batman under most circumstances.

[ShadowBoxing]

Like the Punisher? Or Sabretooth, who soundly kicked his ass numerous times? I'm not saying he's never portrayed as a good fighter, but the instances he's not seem to outweigh the times he is to me. I haven't read Wolverine comics in years, though, so he may be fighting like a world-class martial artist all the time now.Sabretooth is supposed to be expertly trained as well. He does 'fight like an animal', but I wouldn't consider that a drawback in his case...he seems to have taken that to an artform.

[ShadowBoxing]

He also fights like a barroom brawler nine times out of ten. I know he's supposed to have lots of training, but he rarely ever is portrayed using any of it.
I don't know about that. Aside from his initial appearances where Cyclops basically could own him with minimal Judo training, this hasn't been the case in a while. His "barroom brawler" style came from the fact that mostly, left on his own, he got in a ton of barroom brawls. He practically lived out of mandripor there for a while, which isn't exactly a nice, quiet neighborhood. So, when the locals got rough, he got rougher. But, when someone like Silver Samurai, the Hand or Shingen Yashida, he was shown to be an adept fighter.

However, Batman isn't much different. He doesn't usually whip out the fancy smancy ninjuitsu/krav maga/kung fu training unless he is fighting someone like Lady Siva, Deathstroke or 'The League of Assassins'. I mean, by and large, when he swoops down into a crowded bar of hoods he smashes up the place, throws and couple out the windows, kicks a few out the doors, and is left holding that one informant who has what he needs. Or, a more direct example, when Guy Gardener tried to get in his face, all he did was punch him hard in the nose...not really a complex martial arts move.

[Flash Facts]

Yea, but isn't that because he is doing that on purpose? I mean thats Batman's whole shtick to beat everyone up while looking bad ass to intimidate everyone else. Not that I'm saying he would win, I just think Batman seems to always be in control while Wolvie always seems to umm not.

[trustyside-kick]

Basically, the argument here is that Wolverine fights more savage; thus making people think he has no discipline. And fighting styles are all about discipline. He makes himself look like a rabid beast when he fights; what with the roaring and just swinging his claws.

Heck, Wonder Woman is supposed to be an amazing melee fighter, but it always looks like she fights likes Supes instead.

[Rorschach II]

You have to realize to that these guys use the Danger room to train in, something that the JLA doesn't have.

Danger room?

You ever heard of Gotham City?

[The Question]

Danger room?

You ever heard of Gotham City?

Last time I checked, Gotham City doesn't have all that many giant robots.

[trustyside-kick]

Edit.

[CaptainClown]

Last time I checked, Gotham City doesn't have all that many giant robots.

check again ...

nope still not there

[ShadowBoxing]

Basically, the argument here is that Wolverine fights more savage; thus making people think he has no discipline. And fighting styles are all about discipline. He makes himself look like a rabid beast when he fights; what with the roaring and just swinging his claws.

He fights that way because frankly most of the time his opponents are more savage. Sabretooth, Cyber, the roughians of Mandripor and Savage Land Mutates are far different opponents than the Joker, Lady Siva and Ra's Al Ghul. However we've seen that when Wolverine fights a disciplined opponent, like Shingen Yashida, he himself is a very disciplined and adept fighter.

He, much like Batman, can use both savage and disciplined fighting techniques. But unlike Batman, he is in situations where the former is far more effective.

[Kitsune]

Last time I checked, Gotham City doesn't have all that many giant robots.

AW, but chicks dig giant robots.

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't know about that. Aside from his initial appearances where Cyclops basically could own him with minimal Judo training, this hasn't been the case in a while. His "barroom brawler" style came from the fact that mostly, left on his own, he got in a ton of barroom brawls. He practically lived out of mandripor there for a while, which isn't exactly a nice, quiet neighborhood. So, when the locals got rough, he got rougher. But, when someone like Silver Samurai, the Hand or Shingen Yashida, he was shown to be an adept fighter.

However, Batman isn't much different. He doesn't usually whip out the fancy smancy ninjuitsu/krav maga/kung fu training unless he is fighting someone like Lady Siva, Deathstroke or 'The League of Assassins'. I mean, by and large, when he swoops down into a crowded bar of hoods he smashes up the place, throws and couple out the windows, kicks a few out the doors, and is left holding that one informant who has what he needs. Or, a more direct example, when Guy Gardener tried to get in his face, all he did was punch him hard in the nose...not really a complex martial arts move.
Isn't part of the essence of a lot of martial arts only using those motions that are necessary? It lets you conserve your energy while your opponent wastes his trying to show off or flailing around without much technique.

Also, as I recall, Logan mostly beat Shingen Yashida because his healing factor allowed him to take tons of punishment from Yashida until Logan managed to get that one lucky killshot in. And that's really what it comes down to: in a fight, readers generally look at martial arts as a way to defeat your opponent while taking on as little damage to yourself as possible. Logan often fights like **** because he doesn't really need to worry about taking on damage to himself. His healing factor is so absurd now that it coers anything that could happen to him if he leaves himself open--which, given how often we see both him and Batman bleeding and battered, he indisputably does a lot more than Batman. I'm not saying Wolverine has no skill. I'm saying he often fights sloppily because he doesn't have to care what happens to his body in the process, unlike most other skilled martial artists.

[Vanguard07]

Thats basically the same point i was about to bring up.

The fact is Logan has indisputably proven himself capable of fighting with a world class skill level. Right up there on Cap or Batman's level of skill. The difference is he doesnt have to rely on his skill level in most cases.

In a fight like this, guaranteed he wouldnt be a barroom brawler or stupid roaring animal. This is the kinda thing where samurai/soldier/special agent logan would come out to play.

[Kitsune]

However, Batman isn't much different. He doesn't usually whip out the fancy smancy ninjuitsu/krav maga/kung fu training unless he is fighting someone like Lady Siva, Deathstroke or 'The League of Assassins'.
Krav Maga isn't fancy smancy... it's supposed to be the opposite... IE brutally efficient.

[Rorschach II]

The thing about Batman is his unlimited resources. All those..."wonderful toys". Assuming that Marvel and DC were to merge into one Universe again for an intercompany brawl, Batman would have contingency plans for the Marvel heroes just as he does for the DC heroes. If Batman can take down Superman (which he has), he can take down Wolverine.

[Silicon Surfer]

The thing about Batman is his unlimited resources. All those..."wonderful toys". Assuming that Marvel and DC were to merge into one Universe again for an intercompany brawl, Batman would have contingency plans for the Marvel heroes just as he does for the DC heroes. If Batman can take down Superman (which he has), he can take down Wolverine.


The X-Men would have contingency plans for Batman too. Telepaths would be occasionally probing his mind to see what he was up to using technology to neutralize his defenses. All the X-Men would undergo training scenarios to take out Batman under any conceivable situation.

[Harlekin]

The thing about Batman is his unlimited resources. All those..."wonderful toys". Assuming that Marvel and DC were to merge into one Universe again for an intercompany brawl, Batman would have contingency plans for the Marvel heroes just as he does for the DC heroes. If Batman can take down Superman (which he has), he can take down Wolverine.
Batman has never actually taken down Superman.

[Rorschach II]

Well he doesn't kill him, but he has "beaten" him in the sense you beat someone in a boxing match or something.

And this wasn't direct, but in Tower of Babel, it's Batman's contingency plans that are used against Superman.

[Rorschach II]

The X-Men would have contingency plans for Batman too. Telepaths would be occasionally probing his mind to see what he was up to using technology to neutralize his defenses. All the X-Men would undergo training scenarios to take out Batman under any conceivable situation.

Yeah, but he's The Goddamned Batman. =D

[LexCorp]

Batman has never actually taken down Superman.

What about the DARK KNIGHT did he not beat him?

[November Rain]

on the original post, league...on bats vs wolverine, i think bats has the potential to KO wolverine but by the time he realises what type of foe he is up against it may be too late. Wolverine can completely go in without claws or knowledge of healing factor and surprise bats and take him out.

it might take bats a few opportunities to realise what needs to be done to deal with wolverine but after that, i don't see much trouble with bats needing an oppening to crush his windpipe and put him down for a short nap.

however without prior knowledge, it's wolverine's bout.

[Silicon Surfer]

Wolverine is stronger, faster, tougher and has been fighting many decades longer than Batman. Crushing Wolverine's windpipe would probably not put Wolverine down fast enough to keep him from killing Batman and Wolverine would get up again within a few minutes. Wolverine has been hit by three M-16's at point blank range and didn't go down. He's been hit by the Hulk and stayed conscious. Nothing Batman could do would put Wolverine down fast enough and probably not at all.

[TheCorpulent1]

All true, but Batman's fought plenty of people who are stronger, faster, and tougher than he is and won. I still don't believe Wolverine's gonna start out fighting at his top level, either. Decades of comics have shown me that his first tendency is to wade in without a care and get hurt a bit before he starts using any of his skill.

[nimrod]

Still, Wolverine takes this.

[Doc Destruction]

Wolverine would cream Batman, sorry.

[November Rain]

Wolverine is stronger, faster, tougher and has been fighting many decades longer than Batman. Crushing Wolverine's windpipe would probably not put Wolverine down fast enough to keep him from killing Batman and Wolverine would get up again within a few minutes. Wolverine has been hit by three M-16's at point blank range and didn't go down. He's been hit by the Hulk and stayed conscious. Nothing Batman could do would put Wolverine down fast enough and probably not at all.if it worked for daredevil, i don't see why it's not also applicable for batman.

taking damage is somewhat different from having the ability to stay conscience.

[November Rain]

Still, Wolverine takes this.
wolverine's got taken to school by marrow in a fair fight...

marrow of all peeps...

not only that but he got knocked well and truelly out cold by cannonball as well while in beserker mode...all in the same comic

http://wolverine.x-knights.com/fullsize/wolverine60.jpg

[Doc Destruction]

Marrow is not only awesome, but a cold blooded killing beeyotch. Batman is none of these. Well, except awesome.

[Harlekin]

And Wolverine was pretty darn weak during that time.

[Silicon Surfer]

if it worked for daredevil, i don't see why it's not also applicable for batman.

taking damage is somewhat different from having the ability to stay conscience.

Things like that happen but they shouldn't. Daredevil should have had little or no chance to land such a blow and it shouldn't have put Wolvie down before he killed Daredevil. Wolverine has shown consistently the ability to take massive damage and stay conscious and fighting.

[Ultra-Herald9]

I could easily see Batman hitting Wolverine with a whole grip of explodies. Although I definitely see Wolverine taking out Batman.

[The Last Meatbag]

Batman just needs magnets to take out wolvie :huh:

[MagicPrime]

Or a special designed bat grenade that turns any metallic object it touches into a powerful electro magnet.

Or like I said before - hit Wolverine with a beacon and have the Batwing crash into him.

[CaptainClown]

or batman could realize who he is dealing with. Use his grappling hook and fling himself to the highest tower. Call JLA preferably flash, superman or MM say "hey I need your help" then basically wait till reinforcements come.

I really don't see Batman actually physically beating him, but at distance and wit ya probably

[Damiean Dark]

wolverine's got taken to school by marrow in a fair fight...

marrow of all peeps...

not only that but he got knocked well and truelly out cold by cannonball as well while in beserker mode...all in the same comic

http://wolverine.x-knights.com/fullsize/wolverine60.jpg

If your refering to the fight in the above comic Wolverine you should read it again CAREFULLY this time and you will see wolvie was just playing with marrow as she was just new to the team the moment she went to far (by stabbing him through his stomach id like to see batman survive that) wolvie drops all pretents and takes her down.

[Damiean Dark]

And Cannonball gave Gladiator a pretty good fight yeah i know it was one punch BUT it took him down and gladiator is probably more powerful then superman. the plain facts speak volumes, wolverine is too powerful, in terms of strength, speed, and ability and can take the kind of hits that would kill Batman in an instant.

[Flash Facts]

Isn't Wolverine still susceptible to gases, tranquillizers and things like that? I mean Wolverine has been captured a lot how are they doing this if he is supposed to be so hard to knock out?

[November Rain]

Things like that happen but they shouldn't. Daredevil should have had little or no chance to land such a blow and it shouldn't have put Wolvie down before he killed Daredevil. Wolverine has shown consistently the ability to take massive damage and stay conscious and fighting.
it's not the damage that puts wolvie down in that instance, it's the inability for his respitory system to function properly for a moment which causes the knockout.

Same as a nerve hit. He doesn't get knocked out by the damage but the results of his internal system being affected.

sure he'll get up quicker than most but it doesn't mean he's immune to getting knocked out.

daredevil should be just as skilled if not more skilled in combat than wolverine.

[November Rain]

If your refering to the fight in the above comic Wolverine you should read it again CAREFULLY this time and you will see wolvie was just playing with marrow as she was just new to the team the moment she went to far (by stabbing him through his stomach id like to see batman survive that) wolvie drops all pretents and takes her down.
he doesn't take her down, he jumps her and cannonball knocks him out senseless by ramming his head into a wall at about 200 MPH.

she didn't stab him in the stomach, i believe it was in the throat (or high in the chest).

and thus he went feral..after the ownage...

[Silicon Surfer]

it's not the damage that puts wolvie down in that instance, it's the inability for his respitory system to function properly for a moment which causes the knockout.

Same as a nerve hit. He doesn't get knocked out by the damage but the results of his internal system being affected.

sure he'll get up quicker than most but it doesn't mean he's immune to getting knocked out.

daredevil should be just as skilled if not more skilled in combat than wolverine.

Daredevil doesn't have more than a tiny fraction of Wolvie's skill or fighting experiance.

[Damiean Dark]

he doesn't take her down, he jumps her and cannonball knocks him out senseless by ramming his head into a wall at about 200 MPH.

she didn't stab him in the stomach, i believe it was in the throat (or high in the chest).

and thus he went feral..after the ownage...

please read carefully READ and you can see wolvie isnt really trying to hurt marrow at first and AFTER the stab through the throat (again I WOULD LOVE TO SEE BATMAN SURVIVE THAT) he gets angry and takes her down cannonball stops the murder that would have happened.

[Damiean Dark]

Can anybody else who has read this comic set this guy straight.

[moraldeficiency]

Isn't Wolverine still susceptible to gases, tranquillizers and things like that? I mean Wolverine has been captured a lot how are they doing this if he is supposed to be so hard to knock out?

Gases work if it causes enough lack of oxygen. Poisons and tranqs would not work. Hallocinogenics (yeah I'm sure it's misspelled) do work on him. Bats best be would be to freeze him solid though. If bats keeps distance he'd figure logan out and take him down but god help him if the furball closes distance.

[Anubis]

Good thing he kept Mr. Freeze's Cold gun.

[November Rain]

Can anybody else who has read this comic set this guy straight.
the fact remains that such a skilled fighter manages to get a sharp implement shoved down his throat and knocked out cold within 30 seconds of each other.

regardless of whether someone is trying or not, that's a poor show and it both reflect on his durability and his ability to underestimate his opponent and get caught off guard.

[Flash Facts]

If poisons and tranqs don't work how does he get drunk?

[moraldeficiency]

If poisons and tranqs don't work how does he get drunk?

He doesn't actually, he apparently "fakes" it. It's one of those fun inconsistancies you find in comics.

[Ultra-Herald9]

If poisons and tranqs don't work how does he get drunk?

He drinks ALOT.

[TheCorpulent1]

If your refering to the fight in the above comic Wolverine you should read it again CAREFULLY this time and you will see wolvie was just playing with marrow as she was just new to the team the moment she went to far (by stabbing him through his stomach id like to see batman survive that) wolvie drops all pretents and takes her down.
Throat, actually. Marrow stabbed Wolverine in the throat.

Seriously, now that Wolverine's got his adamantium back, all anyone needs to beat him is Antarctic vibranium. Hit him with a block of that a few times and he'd be turned into an immobile blob of metal and flesh.