Marv Wolfman explains why people hate Marvel.

[masteryoda]

Comments about Marvel from a former EIC.
Week One
Welcome back for another What Th--? go-around. We’ve gotten a few, a very few, letters with questions, so I’m once again asking that everyone send in something you’d like to see discussed here. I probably won’t have any answers, but we may be able to spark some sort of debate here, which is great.

Secondly, two weeks from now we will feature our continuing series of interviews, this time with Mark Millar. Look for it.

From Dirk J. Abraham - dirkja@rconnect.com comes a letter with a question so fascinating it will take two weeks to answer it.

Marv, here's a question for you to ponder.

I collect comics - mostly Marvel super heroes. I also use the Internet to check out comic-related web sites. But, I often find on-line comic sites, message boards and columnists have a very negative attitude toward super hero comics in general, and Marvel in particular. Reading some of these sites, I get the impression that anyone who reads super-hero comics is a buffoon, and the "cool" people are all apparently reading some obscure black-and-white comic.

In your opinion, why do so many Internet participants have this apparent bias against Marvel and super-hero comics? By the way, I'm 47 years old, I have a B.A. in communications from a good liberal arts college, and I don't live in my mother's basement.
Concerning super-hero bashing: it basically comes down to tastes changing but not realizing it, so you want something you used to like to still be as meaningful to you as it was when it, frankly, was more important in your life. Given that loss, you attack what you once loved, instead of just saying your tastes have changed. Sometimes, Super-heroes no longer do it for you. That’s all right. I no longer read Richie Rich – and don’t say that’s because it’s no longer being published, okay? Of course, with some folk, it’s not enough to no longer like what you once loved, you have to attack it so people who still like it are made out to be morons. Ignore those people. They don’t know how to have fun.

Marvel bashing is a phenomenon that has been going on since the early 90s and doesn’t seem to be letting up. What is so bizarre is that readers still buy more Marvel Comics than any other brand, which means they love the books yet hate the company. It’s truly amazing and I had been wondering about it ever since I first noticed the trend beginning a decade ago.

There was a time, back in the 60s and throughout the 70s that “Make Mine Marvel!” was a rallying cry for all Marvelmaniacs. As a fan back then, we truly loved the stories, art and characters that Marvel was producing month in and month out. It was as if they almost couldn’t fail. Thousands joined the MMMS, the Mighty Marvel Marching Society – I still have my kit somewhere in the garage – and we couldn’t wait to see what book our names would appear in under the “Here’s 25 more MMMS members” banner.

What made Marvel back then, beyond the stories, which were so much better than what anyone else was doing, and the art, which was exciting instead of dull, and the characters, who were unlike anything we’d seen before, were the editorials and letter columns written by Stan Lee.

Say what you will about Stan. Every fan in comics has his or her own view over who and what he is, but as someone who worked side-by-side with Stan under trying conditions on a daily basis, I can tell you that beyond his obvious talent, which was undisputed back when he revitalized comics in the 60s, Stan is the gregarious, fun, friendly and straight forward guy everyone is trying to put down today. Perhaps his endless enthusiasm turns off people in this age of irony, but I can tell you it’s no act. He is enthusiastic. He has a boundless love for what he does. And yes, he is corny, but it’s not manipulated corn. That is his personality. I’ve seen it when the two of us were alone, walking down the street to a restaurant. If it ever was an act, it had long ago become assimilated into his personality, but people who knew him back in the 40s say he was like that even then. Yeah, his penchant for alliteration was always silly, but, tell the truth, if you were reading comics in the 60s, you probably loved it. I did.

He made us feel like he cared about us. We liked believing there was an actual Marvel bullpen when, in fact, all the freelancers worked at home. We loved believing everyone at Marvel was friends with everyone else. We believed we were part of a family. And knowing Stan, he was doing it because he thought it was fun.

Back in the 1950s, EC Comics did pretty much the same thing in their letter columns. They made their readers believe they were part of an exclusive club. The letter answerers at EC didn’t have the effusive charm that Stan has, so they handled their letter columns differently, but essentially, they were selling an exclusive EC club, and Stan was selling Marvel. And Comics – remember, Stan would always say “Read us, read our competition. Just read.” Whether he believed that or not, he was never putting down the competition, except with his silly “Brand Ecch” routine. Everyone back then knew it was fun and we took it as such. We didn’t think Stan hated the guys at the other companies. h#&%, any time a DC artist was available he’d grab them up. No, it was all part of creating a family atmosphere and nobody, I repeat, nobody was better at it than Stan, because that is who he is.

So, what happened? How did we go from loving Marvel to wanting to string up their executives from their toes?

I believe the good will engendered by Marvel lasted through most of the 1970s. The people who followed Stan, namely Roy Thomas, Len Wein, myself, Archie Goodwin and a few others, believed in Stan’s basic approach to things. We always treated Marvel’s letter columns and the Bullpen Pages as if you were writing to your friends and family. Like Stan, we always signed our first names to the Bullpen Page. It was Stan the Man, Rascally Roy, Lively Len, Marvelous Marv, Affable Archie, and so on. Not only is that the way all of us preferred being addressed – Mr. Wolfman was my father. I’m Marv – but using first names is always friendlier.

Also, we loved comics and, strange as it may sound, we loved the fans. h#&%, we’d all been fans. Roy, Len and I all published fan magazines. I write this column and update my own website several times a week. Roy still is doing Alter Ego, and Len is struggling to put up his website, which should be done soon. We went to all the early conventions. h#&%, Len helped put on the very first comicon – and gave it the name comicon – back in the 60s. So, like Stan, we weren’t so much catering to the fans, we were doing comics because we loved them.

But things changed when one of fandom’s favorite whipping boys, Jim Shooter, took control of Marvel. I’m not here to discuss whether he was right or wrong with what he did – I had quit Marvel and went to DC very early on in his rein – but Jim was the first person to sign the bullpen pages with only his last name – Shooter. Not Shining Shooter or Six-Gun Shooter. Just Shooter.

First names bring you in as a friend. Last names distance you.

During this period many professionals started talking directly to the fans and, for the first time, actively complained about Marvel. No one had ever done that before. We all have had problems with the companies we’ve worked for, but our complaints were always made in-house, not to the fans. Why not? 1: It’s not their business. 2: It’s not their business. Sorry, but it’s not.

Professionals left Marvel in droves, and many of them took the time to complain loudly and vociferously. Whether their complaints were justified or not isn’t the problem. What is is that the family atmosphere that Stan had spent so long creating was being shattered.

What? You mean every writer and artist at Marvel didn’t work in the Bullpen? You mean the people up there might not like each other? You mean they may actively hate the person they’re working with? You mean the people in charge are ruining creator X’s book by insisting on changing this or that or whatever? How dare he. This isn’t the Marvel of Stan Lee. This isn’t the Marvel of Roy Thomas and Len Wein and Marv Wolfman. Nobody disliked any of them!

Garbage!

We know now, through the parting layers of time, that Stan and the brilliant artist, co-creator and plotter of Spider-Man and Dr. Strange, Steve Ditko, didn’t speak to each other for a very long time before Steve quit, even as they worked together on Spidey. We’ve learned that Jack Kirby, whose style literally formed the whole of Marvel, had severe differences with Stan. I’m not taking sides here. I’m not saying Steve was right and Stan was wrong, or Stan was right and Jack was wrong. I’m saying there were differences. Major differences. Differences that forced both creators to leave Marvel. But because the times were different, they didn’t go to the fan press and talk about it in public.

They both left because of “disagreements” but we went on believing in the wholeness of the Marvel Bullpen because they kept their differences pretty much to themselves. But, when a dozen or so creators exited Marvel between 1978-1981, and so many of them said the Ed-in-Chief was the reason they were leaving, well, the fracture was beginning.

Then Shooter, right or wrong, had his public battle with Chris Claremont on Dark Phoenix. Now, I’m more likely to believe that though this was real, it was also a great PR stunt, because the effects of killing Dark Phoenix took what was only a decent selling Marvel title and catapulted it into the stratosphere. People wanted to see what the Marvel empire was censoring. Chris, a top writer, took this windfall and ran with it for years, turning out more and more intriguing and controversial stories until the X-Men became unbeatable. Good for him.

But the seeds of discontent, the truth that the Mighty Marvel Machine wasn’t one big happy family, we’re definitely sprouting and the fan’s love for what they thought Marvel was, was slowly winding down.

Marvel started its popularity decline in the 80s and sank lower in the 90s, only to have a startling resurgence in the current decade, whatever you want to call it.

I will continue next week with both an analysis of what went wrong in the 90s, what is right and wrong today, and then offer some suggestions for improvement.

See you in seven,
Marv Wolfman
marv@silverbulletcomicbooks.com

[masteryoda]

Week Two
This was originally going to be a two-part column, but my answer this week got to be so long I am making it three columns instead.

Marvel began a creative slump in the 1990s that took more than a decade to extricate itself from. Unfortunately, because they had lost a lot of the good will engendered by Stan, Jack and Steve in the 60s, and a number of other editors throughout most of the 70s, the fans began to attack the company for some real problems that existed.

The decline was subtle at first, and a lot of it can be placed at the doorstep of the New Universe titles, which most fans thought of as a slap at old Marvel. Stan wouldn’t do that, they said. Of course, had the books been good instead of disposable, nobody would have complained. And, further, of course Stan and company would have created a New Universe if he thought that would help Marvel’s sales. He’d just have done it better.

The problem with creating a New Universe was that the original Marvel Universe was developed over a long period of time, through trial and error and a lot of success and failure. The Marvel Universe didn’t just spring forth from the brow of Zeus. First there was one title. The Fantastic Four. Then months later there was a second. Spider-Man. Then, some time later a third was added, and so on. Nobody was creating a universe, they created a single comic, saw how people responded to it, then created not a handful of titles, but just one more. There was no Marvel Universe per se. There were two comics. Then three. Then four, and more. But they were added to the line up slowly. Very slowly. And even then not everything succeeded.

Remember, the Hulk didn’t make it at first. It was cancelled after six issues. Spider-Man was shoved into a dying comic. The FF began without costumes. Stan and company played with each character and title until they figured out what they were doing and the books became successful. But even then some characters were never successful enough to warrant their own titles: Ant-Man, for example, or the Human Torch, who appeared in Strange Tales as well as the FF.

Even though the excitement started early on, The Marvel Comics – before they were named Marvel - were not immediate successes. Most Marvel comics hit their stride in their third year.

To think you could create a half dozen or more titles from scratch, let alone a cohesive universe that took far greater talents years to guide into some of the best comics ever done, was an act of hubris that nobody should have tried. Books can’t be stamped out like car parts. There needs to be inspiration.

The fans rebelled and stayed away from the New Universe in droves. They felt the original Marvel was being put down for the ego of a very few.

But the New Universe died quickly. The people in charge were soon gone, and new folk took over.

And here is where the real rift between company and fans began.

First off, the Xerox of a Xerox of a Xerox was now hard to make out and care about. The quality level dropped precipitously. A thousand new books seemed to be added to the mix every month, and only a very, very few were readable.

Further, the fans felt the Marvel staff was mocking their love for the characters, and, in fact, they were. I looked in on a few Marvel panels at various conventions and saw the editors treating the fans with such disdain it made me ill. They thought they were having fun, but I would hear the fans as they left the panels. They weren’t all that happy. It got so bad that Marvel mockingly called itself “The Evil Empire” in public to make fun of the fan’s views that they were, indeed, evil. Rather than addressing why the fans thought that, they simply mocked them. Wrong! At the very least, you need to pay attention to the customer.

But the fans were hurt. They were hurt that their characters were being screwed with so badly. They were hurt that it looked like all the company wanted was to take as much money from them as possible while giving back as little as possible. Marvel was always profit driven – business needs to be – but Stan made it feel like he cared about how he was making the money. He made it feel like he wanted to do the best books in the world which is why you would spend your money on Marvel and only Marvel. Fans were hurt that the legacy of Stan and Jack and Steve was being crushed in order to churn out more and more garbage.

Sales dropped. But when your sales are exponentially higher than the competition, you may lose a third of your sales and stay top banana, but in truth you are smaller. Closer to a plantain.

And that’s where things stood for a decade. Fans hated the stories, hated the arrogance and hated what was being done to characters they loved. They fled the books. Sales dropped for a half million to fifty-sixty thousand copies. That means not only the evil speculators but a goodly number of the people who were there before the explosion.

That’s not to say there weren’t some excellent, often brilliant books being done, but for the vast majority of titles, nobody cared.

Now, what about today?

First off, let me begin by saying I don’t know any of the current people working at Marvel. As far as I remember, I met Joe Quesada one time, for less than five minutes after I was on a convention panel talking about the old days writing the FF. Joe came up to me and thanked me. We spoke for a few seconds, and hurried off to some other panel we had to do. I’ve emailed Joe a few times in the past few years and he has always taken care of whatever little problem I had (usually getting copies of books reprinting my old stories, or making sure I got a reprint check). In short, Joe has always dealt with me honestly and with respect.

I do not know Bill Jemas at all. Again, as far as I know, I’ve never met him or talked to him, or even know what he looks like, so the only thing I know about him is what I read on line.

I say this up front because I have no personal knowledge of or problems with either of these men. This is not to say that now I’m going to put them down. Quite the contrary. I just want you to know where I stand. There ain’t nothing personal going on here.

When I first heard that Joe was handling the “Marvel Knights” line for Marvel I, along with most people, probably felt – but he’s just an artist. He was a really great artist. I loved the issues of The Ray he had done for DC, but he didn’t write them. Because I and Len Wein had been asked to work up an animated treatment based on Ash, the comic he did back in the 90s, I read those books and again, thought the art was fantastic but the stories were, well, not really stories.

But then I started to read Marvel Knights, and Whoa! This was different. This was good.

And when he took over Marvel itself, I saw an incredible change in their editorial. I hated, capital H.A.T.E.D. what had been done to Spider-Man and the FF, and now, my God, they were starting to be good again. We could all see an immediate change in the Marvel Comics. They were growing up. They were acknowledging that they were no longer in 1963 but in the 21st Century and they were updating their characters to meet this new world.

The fact is, all of you were looking at Marvel again. You were caring again. The characters were interesting again. The new writers were doing new things and yet not desecrating the old.

So why do fans still hate Marvel?

For all the wrong, and some of the right reasons, and they are the same reasons.

Fans get caught up in internal politics instead of the books. Yes, I know if you care about something so much you do get caught up in it. When I heard Mark Waid had been fired off the FF I went through the roof because his run was pretty much the first time since Stan stopped writing the book that I thought it was truly good again. And that includes my own run which I never thought much of.

I’m sorry to break here, but this column does conclude next week. See you after San Diego with a con report as well as my belated interview with Mark Millar.

See you in seven,
Marv Wolfman
marv@silverbulletcomicbooks.com

[masteryoda]

Week Three
With Goes Marvel Comics - Part Three

By Marv Wolfman
Print This Item

I don’t know what’s going on at Marvel. I don’t work there. h#&%, I’m not even allowed to work there since I sued them a few years back and my name is verboten to top management, but I do know the fans are having a problem with Marvel today that has little to do with the books themselves because, even without me (or maybe because I’m not there!) the books are better than they’ve been in a quarter of a century.

Marvel’s problem comes from two sources. From what I see on the net, Joe Quesada’s matter of fact, unvarnished words, irritate the fans. They feel he’s arrogant and is explaining away bad decisions. As I say, I don’t know Joe, but from the letters he’s posted on the net I can tell he doesn’t have the ability to shmooze away stuff through the charm Stan showed. h#&%, none of us could even come close to having Stan’s charm which effused its way onto the written page.

Let me digress: I used to joke (emphasis on “joke”) that you could be brought into Stan’s office and he could say the following to you: “You are a disgusting, no talented hack who should be shot, stuffed, then used as a piñata by angry baby seals with large clubs who should beat you until your bloody entrails are scattered across the planet.” Because of Stan’s personality, you would shake his hand and thank him as you left his office. Then you’d walk into, say, a different editor-in-chief’s office, and he would look down on you with his furrowed brow and say, “Umm, urrr, we’re giving you a million dollars, tax free,” and you’d be wondering what’s up with this guy. Stan’s a charmer and could make the worst news in the world sound like you’ve won the lottery. No one else can.

So, on the occasions where I’m looking for some gossip to read, because I love gossip, I read a letter to the fans by Joe and I simply wonder why he even bothers. From Stan to Roy to everyone, including me, when you’re editor-in-chief you have to do spin control. It comes with the job. But there are many decisions made that cannot be spun unless you have Stan’s ability to charm the pants off you. Sometimes it’s best simply not to answer, because, the internet being the way it is, if someone doesn’t like your decision, whether it be right or wrong, they’re going to have the last word and shout you down.

I wouldn’t spend the time trying to justify what may be a business decision I either do or don’t agree with, or an editorial change that is made simply because you’re in charge and want to do it this way and not that way. I wouldn’t give a long, complicated reason why I fired this person or that. I would simply say it was differences of opinion. Period. And, if I didn’t agree with the decisions made by those above me, I wouldn’t give some treknobabble explanation why it’s right.

As an editor, whenever I had to tell a writer or artist about a decision that was handed down to me, I always said “Look, I may not completely agree with this, but that’s the way it is. Now, can we make the best out of it?” The talent knows the decision made, which could very well be wrong, but even if it was my idea, it is not up to debate. It’s the way it is.

My advice to Joe: Having been editor-in-chief of Marvel, I know you have to defend, or at least implement, unpopular decisions, some of which you may agree with, some you may not. Some decisions could be 100% right and nobody will still approve, and some could be 100% wrong, but you have no choice in the matter. And then there’s that whole gray area between.

I don’t believe you are obligated to explain everything to everybody. If you don’t have Stan’s effusive personality, a simple “No comment” or “We regret this decision, but—“ can suffice. People are still going to argue over it, but they will no matter what is said. It’s hard to defend stupid decisions or even smart but unpopular ones, because people won’t listen and if you try, you look like you’re an apologist rather than an editor-in-chief and it undermines your credibility.

Trying to explain in detail why, say, Mark Waid is no longer writing the Fantastic Four is, simply, impossible. I don’t know if the decision was made in advance, or if it happened through accident, or if there’s something sinister involved, or if it’s just a matter of “he said, she said,” but no answer is going to make anyone happy, especially when they are conflicting.

A simple, “We regret that Mark won’t be writing the Fantastic Four, but we’re looking forward to the great ideas that new writer Irving Forbush has planned,” is all that needs to be said. And, by the way, that is the truth. I’m sure everyone at Marvel regrets losing Mark, for whatever the reason is, and you are looking forward to the new material.

Whether Mark was let go because there was a decision to change the direction of the book, or if, as some fan gossip columnists insist, because Marvel wants to cut down on high paying writers, frankly it doesn’t matter. Mark could have been fired because Marvel has pictures of him having group sex with Osama, Saddam and Mother Theresa – the way she is today. I know this is a great difference between me and the fans, and as much of a lover of gossip as I am, I don’t believe, when it comes to certain decisions, that you have to explain everything to everyone. You just need to be honest if you do. Fans have a way of seeing right through the B.S.

Frankly, I think the majority of fans have great respect for Joe. He editorially turned Marvel around. I know of no other industry where it’s expected to explain every unpopular decision. When John Wells, exec producer of West Wing had to announce Aaron Sorkin’s departure, he didn’t go into all the gruesome details (Where there any? Tell me! Tell me! I have to know!) He said he thought Aaron was a brilliant talent and that he hated to see him go. Period.

I would use the net only to tell about all the great things Marvel is doing and trying to do. I would use the net to disseminate information that you want everyone to know, not gossip. And, when bad things happen, or mistakes are made, acknowledge them, learn from them, and move on. Fast. Don’t offer excuses. Don’t insult the readers. Say your piece and leave.

To Bill Jemas. Bill’s a different problem altogether. Based on what I’ve read on the internet, Bill seems to enjoy baiting the fans. It may be fun. He may think it’s humorous. It may be a deliberate attempt to create a “bad boy” image, but it’s ultimately not only wrong, and unfunny, but foolishly wrong for someone in his position to be doing it.

As I said, I don’t know Bill, but I do know there’s no reason to attack the very people who are buying your product.

I don’t know if my figures are completely right – perhaps someone out there does - but here goes: In 1990, we had something like 7,500 comic book shops spread across the country. At the end of the 90s, we had something like 3,500 shops. Rumor has it we now have fewer than 2,000 shops. It has been said that every time a shop closes, only 25% of its customers search out new shops. The others give up the hobby.

We are losing enough fans by still producing material they don’t want to buy, so we certainly can’t afford to lose more readers through the constant barrage of attacks and bad press.

My advice to Bill: Let Joe do all the talking. I honestly don’t believe people are finding the bad boy stuff funny, whether it’s real or a put on. I think there are so few readers to begin with these days, and they are more in touch with all the gossip, true and false – and the net is filled with both - that a wrong word can effect percentages. In the old days when we sold a quarter million copies, if you angered a hundred readers, it didn’t matter. Today, that could be the difference between profit and loss. Why hurt someone with a mean word anyway? And certainly, why do it deliberately?

Marv’s theory which is Marv’s: In the old days, comics were the only place where you could get heroic fiction. Today, it’s all over the movies (Marvel has had 7 number one films in a row, beginning with, he said modestly, my own character, Blade). What we do is now all over the movie screens, TV, video games, commercials, toys, in fact, everywhere. Since super-hero material can be found in so many other places, these days, super-hero comics are, I think, somewhat redundant and can be easily given up by readers. For this reason alone we need to include people, not send them packing in anger.

You have made a ton of great decisions for Marvel. The new look, the new concepts, the new approaches, according to Joe come from you. Obviously, you not only know what you’re doing, you’re defying odds by making people care about the characters again. So, why p!$$ them off by needlessly being flip?

Like I said, let Joe do the talking.

Finally, to the fans and professionals: Some of the problems comics is suffering from is an explosion of bad press that is exacerbated by the internet press who realize the fastest way to make their name is to attack! Attack! Attack! People love to read such stuff, and Marvel, like every company in the world, has enough disgruntled employees, current and former, to feed the minute by minute need for news updates and gossip.

A comic book writer gets their story tossed out at nine in the morning, by noon he’s written a 30 page diatribe that’s appearing on 50 websites.

We canned stories way back in the 70s and 80s but nobody said boo. A book gets pulped, for the wrong reasons or right, execs get slammed, even though it’s their right to make such decisions. And, by the way, those decisions have always been made. Just not reported on. I’m not saying the fans are wrong and Marvel is right. Frankly, with the exception of the gossip columnists out there who love to stir up trouble, the fans ARE right and Marvel is wrong for one and one reason only. The basic truth (or lie) of American business: “the customer is always right.”

If enough fans believe they are being crapped on, well, someone should pause to wonder if they are indeed being crapped on. Or spat on. Or someone accidentally stepped on their toes. The fans are the people, the ONLY people, buying comics today.

We don’t have “readers” the way we used to. Almost nobody today casually buys a comic. Because we effectively dismantled the newsstand market and limited their purchase to a thousand or so out of the way tiny hole-in-the-wall shops, we have destroyed the concept of comic book readers and created the uber fan.

Today, we only have true fans because only a true fan would go out of their way to get into their car, drive across town, go into the shop and pick up what they had already ordered. Maybe, and only maybe, will they then look at the rack and pick up one or two other titles because the cover catches their eye.

If you owe your life to people with one red eye, then it’s best not to p!$$ off people who have one red eye.

So, the fans who complain are right. Something is wrong and needs to be dealt with, if only for self preservation.

On the other hand, Marvel’s job, and, for that matter, DC’s, Dark Horse and the rest, are to give you, the reader, good stories worth reading.

There’s a maxim in writing comics, TV, animation, movies, books, etc. It’s “Show, don’t tell.” It means show us what’s going on, don’t have someone’s talking head gabbing about it. In the case of Marvel, I believe you need to follow that example. Don’t tell us what we don’t need to know. Do your job and show us great comics.

See you in seven,
Marv Wolfman
marv@silverbulletcomicbooks.com
Part Three

[Len N. Wallace]

Jesus, that was long... but still, not bad...

[the defenders]

I'm amazized i actually read it
He's right in so many ways
:)

[Ray-Man]

Pretty cool...I'll continue to buy the comics that I like with a disregard to the politics that goes on. Can never run away from the politics...as much as i hate them...

[Jugsy]

The only problem was him giving attention to Bill Jemas, a simple "And with the last sentance avalable, Bill Jemas is an head-wanking, anal-fisting, *****-ass-punk!!!"

but I digress (I always wanted to use that word:o :D :cool: :o :D ), that was a good read;)

[the defenders]

I wish we had Stan back :(
He knew how to run a company

[Jugsy]

yes he did:(

I can't figure out why Marvel isn't trying beyond humaly possible to get new readers, and I don't mean by swaping writters, coz if you don't know a writter or even about comics, then you don't care. All this new writters stuff is just to get back old readers.

And before someone asks, boyond doing sponsers or ads, I have no clue how to get new readers, but I'm not running a multi-million $ company.

[Unthinkable]

Well hey Bill Jemas is a complete dumass and look where he is today! :)

[TheCorpulent1]

Wow, I have new respect for Marv Wolfman. He makes a lot of sense.

I don't wish Stan Lee would come back. He had his time and he's not going to be around forever. I agree with Wolfman on that point: as long as there's someone doing the job right and giving me good comics, I'm happy. Except for the fact that the guy doing that job now is an a**hole. But I can get over that if the comics are still good.

[Jugsy]

Originally posted by TheCorpulent1
Except for the fact that the guy doing that job now is an a**hole. But I can get over that if the comics are still good.

But there's the problem, the comics aren't okay. And the few that are, are either given to the would-be Austen or cancelled!

And to put the cream on the cake, he takes one of the first marvel characters created, a homage to bad-ass heroes everywhere, and turns him into a love struck punk with gills!
Seriously, it's takenn four issues for Namor to go bad ass ONCE!!! and for the plot to finally be revealed. And that is if you keep a free mind, and know Namors past.

[CaptainStacy]

Wolfman always was a class act. Always loved his stories, Lots of respect for the guy...

[RenaudMan]

In other words people hate Marvel because of the management bashing towards fans

and so much crappy none sense stuff made over there these days too

Captain America is unreadable...is that why they shift him to Marvel Knights

Not enough collected of the good stuff

no golden age MARVEL masterworks

too little of the good stuff like ORIGIN hardcover

and so much crap

turning a cool character like the Rawhide Kid into a joke

People love the Marvel characters but hate some of the morons working with them in the wrong way

http://groups.msn.com/HEROESCOMICS/collectedcomicswishlist.msnw

[TheCorpulent1]

Originally posted by Jugsy
But there's the problem, the comics aren't okay. And the few that are, are either given to the would-be Austen or cancelled!

And to put the cream on the cake, he takes one of the first marvel characters created, a homage to bad-ass heroes everywhere, and turns him into a love struck punk with gills!
Seriously, it's takenn four issues for Namor to go bad ass ONCE!!! and for the plot to finally be revealed. And that is if you keep a free mind, and know Namors past.
I don't read Namor. The way I figure the comics are ok is that I read Amazing Spider-Man, which is better than it's been in almost a decade. I read New X-Men, which took the X-Men back to basics in a refreshing new way and got me reading X-books again after I gave up on them during the Twelve arc. The Ultimate line rules and Jemas is one of the people responsible. Sure Austen's screwing up Uncanny and Captain America right now, but nothing's perfect, and it'll eventually get better because, frankly, the characters aren't going anywhere.

Jemas has done more good than harm as far as I can tell. If he's slowly picking Marvel apart, as a lot of people suggest and as I was beginning to believe myself, he's doing it in a very peculiar way that's leaving a lot of Marvel's properties in better shape than they were before he got there.

So my question for you, Jugsy, is what do you specifically dislike about Jemas' decisions (other than firing Waid, which everyone is upset about)? Are you just getting caught up in the anti-Jemas wave like I did?

[Themanofbat]

Originally posted by CaptainStacy
Wolfman always was a class act. Always loved his stories, Lots of respect for the guy...

Yep, his early run on the 1980 revamp of the Teen Titans was phenominal, and his short stint on Amazing Spider-Man was one of the best runs in that book's history. :cool:

[Jugsy]

Originally posted by TheCorpulent1
So my question for you, Jugsy, is what do you specifically dislike about Jemas' decisions (other than firing Waid, which everyone is upset about)? Are you just getting caught up in the anti-Jemas wave like I did?


I don't like him taking one of my favourte heroes and turning him into a dick!

sure he's done some good stuff, but he also ****s up beyond repair. So what, he created the ultimate line? that doesn't mean he can't make mestakes.

It's nothing big , just those little nagging worries that build up, and you just can't take anymore;) :(

Well short of assassinating him, there's nothing I can do, unless......:D :rolleyes:

[the defenders]

:O

[amazingfantasy15]

Amazing Spidey, New X-Men, Daredevil and FF (with Waid, sucks he's leaving) are all titles that were pretty damn crappy 3 years ago and have now been getting large amounts of praise. The Ultimate line is kicking all kinds of @$$, Alias is an amaing comics, some of the Tsumani titles are damn good (I've been getting Runaways, Mystique and New Mutants). Marvel's books are better than they were throughout the entire 90s. Sure there's some books that still haven't really got on board yet or some titles where the change started off well, but has since f'ed up, but overall good things are happening.

[TheCorpulent1]

Don't forget about X-Statix, Origin/Truth/Born, Inhumans, and Avengers. Those are great, too.

[the defenders]

Never forget X-STATIC

Is it me, or is Doop














GOD

[Sundry]

Rather than the critiques of the current administration, what I took away from that article was the realization of just how much the industry as a whole has changed over the past 10 years. In addition to the comments concerning the Bullpen, statements like this...

In 1990, we had something like 7,500 comic book shops spread across the country. At the end of the 90s, we had something like 3,500 shops. Rumor has it we now have fewer than 2,000 shops. It has been said that every time a shop closes, only 25% of its customers search out new shops. The others give up the hobby.

In the old days, comics were the only place where you could get heroic fiction. Today, it’s all over the movies (Marvel has had 7 number one films in a row, beginning with, he said modestly, my own character, Blade). What we do is now all over the movie screens, TV, video games, commercials, toys, in fact, everywhere. Since super-hero material can be found in so many other places, these days, super-hero comics are, I think, somewhat redundant and can be easily given up by readers.

We don’t have “readers” the way we used to. Almost nobody today casually buys a comic. Because we effectively dismantled the newsstand market and limited their purchase to a thousand or so out of the way tiny hole-in-the-wall shops, we have destroyed the concept of comic book readers and created the uber fan.

...make me wonder if we would still have these problems regardless of the administration's attitudes or not. In the 1990s Marvel's biggest cancer was bad writing. Now it's become the market itself. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

Good point, Sundry. How many of us see a comic shop today that doesn't need to boost its business by selling Pokemon cards and other stuff to bring more people in? Both the comic shops I go to (at home and at college) are rife with so many other things, comics seem like a secondary concern for them.

[Elijya]

Bump

that was a great read

[iloveclones]

That WAS a great read. I liked hearing his views on when things started to change under (Jim) Shooter, and it was ironic that one of their first big "public" disagreements (Dark Phoenix) catapulted the title into the monster it is today.

Personally, I feel the Stan role of schmoozing is much harder today, because of the internet. Either you post on boards or maintain your own site, in which case fans (who aren't kids anymore) will pick apart everything that you say. Or you don't, and fans will say your aloof and out of touch (and the requisite crapping all over the character)


I just look at the balance sheet: I'm enjoying comics MUCH, MUCH more today then I did 5 years ago

[iloveclones]

Originally posted by Jugsy
But there's the problem, the comics aren't okay. And the few that are, are either given to the would-be Austen or cancelled!

And to put the cream on the cake, he takes one of the first marvel characters created, a homage to bad-ass heroes everywhere, and turns him into a love struck punk with gills!
Seriously, it's takenn four issues for Namor to go bad ass ONCE!!! and for the plot to finally be revealed. And that is if you keep a free mind, and know Namors past.

Which may be true to all old fans, but the bottom line for me is that for the first time ever, I got my sister-in-law and 11yr old niece reading Marvel comics. The coveted "new" fans of the industry. Rather than spend time complaining about it (I mean, it's cancelled. You won), why not just pass it off to a someone who might enjoy it. Hell, I was buying it, primarily to hand it off to them.

[topdog1]

Originally posted by Sundry
...make me wonder if we would still have these problems regardless of the administration's attitudes or not. In the 1990s Marvel's biggest cancer was bad writing. Now it's become the market itself. :(

We have to get the kids to start reading and away from the video games.

Still.... “Make Mine Marvel!”

[CobraCommander]

It's not just video games. Kids are reading. They're just not reading American comics. They're reading Manga. They're reading Harry Potter.

Marvel needs to get the word out. I've been saying it for a few years now, TELEVISION ADVERTISING. It's so simple, why can't they figure this out?

[masteryoda]

I doubt Marvel could really afford T.V advertising. Not the kind of advertising that would me needed to make a difference. How much did an add during Seinfeld or Friends cost? A few hundred thousand I'm sure. Plus I think they reach alot more new readers with the interent.

[iloveclones]

Here's another thing they need to figure out (and I think they may be): affordable comics. I feel like I have a drug habit with what I spend on a weekly basis. I have no idea how kids could wrangle this kind of money out of their parents on a weekly basis. I saw Marvel is publishing their Marvel Age line in the small "manga" paperback format. I think that's a really good way to go. Another good idea is to make their TPB's really affordable to libraries thru heavy discounts (or donations). This is where I started reading Powers and Authority, 2 examples of titles that I really like and NEVER would have picked up and tried. Here's another idea: at movie premieres, give away CD-ROM's with comics on them. Like with the upcoming FF movie. Give away a CD with the first 10 issues of Ultimate FF and the best, recent 10 issues of MU FF; make the movie adaptation into a 3 or 4 part mini-series and put the first issue on the CD. Include on the CD a database of comic shops and other stores that carry Marvel comics with a link to Mapquest . These are relatively inexpensive things that would draw in new fans.

Sorry if I'm sidetracking the thread...

[The Batman]

i dont hate marvel. I do hate the management and the way they act towards the fans or other companies, and their obsessed legion of ignorant zombies...

[venom892]

Great read and very good points.:up:

[Darthphere]

Originally posted by The Batman
i dont hate marvel. I do hate the management and the way they act towards the fans or other companies, and their obsessed legion of ignorant zombies...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/darthphere/Zombie.jpg

[Unthinkable]

hah!

[CobraCommander]

Like DC doesn't have the same devoted fans. :rolleyes:

[CantThinkOfAName]

Awesome read:up:

[CantThinkOfAName]

Originally posted by CobraCommander
Like DC doesn't have the same devoted fans. :rolleyes: The DC fans are the bitter ones that get happy anytime one of their books makes it in the top ten. Then they like to rub it in everyone's face, despite the fact that marvel has the other 9 slots;)

[The Batman]

:rolleyes:

Sales dont equal quality....I'm not trying to play sides, but, you probably say the same thing when a Britney Spears record outsells your favorite Rock band.....

[Darthphere]

But Britney Spears is good. :(

[CantThinkOfAName]

Originally posted by The Batman
:rolleyes:

Sales dont equal quality....I'm not trying to play sides, but, you probably say the same thing when a Britney Spears record outsells your favorite Rock band..... i dont like rock, so i don't get you comparison:confused::(

[CantThinkOfAName]

Originally posted by darthphere
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/darthphere/Zombie.jpg Hehe:up:

I remember back in the day, SIG and I used to get pics of zombies and add stuff like "marvel rules" on to them.:up:


that's where that Fib You pic came from:)

[CobraCommander]

I'm just saying, because I'm not a biased reader. But I feel that fans on both sides are equally devoted and rabid.

Yet Marvel gets stuck with the "zombie" label.

[CantThinkOfAName]

because 'DC zombie' doesnt role off your tongue like 'marvel zombie' does.:)

[Kunstpark_Ost]

Originally posted by the defenders
I'm amazized i actually read it
He's right in so many ways
:)

Awesome Morrissey avatar!! I'M JEALOUS!

[Lackey]

Originally posted by CobraCommander
I'm just saying, because I'm not a biased reader. But I feel that fans on both sides are equally devoted and rabid.

Yet Marvel gets stuck with the "zombie" label.


well, as evident by the sales figures, most rabid DC fans read Marvel too

[CobraCommander]

Eh... I'll just go with Bat-Sheep or something that rolls off the tongue easier.

[Jugsy]

Originally posted by iloveclones
Which may be true to all old fans, but the bottom line for me is that for the first time ever, I got my sister-in-law and 11yr old niece reading Marvel comics. The coveted "new" fans of the industry. Rather than spend time complaining about it (I mean, it's cancelled. You won), why not just pass it off to a someone who might enjoy it. Hell, I was buying it, primarily to hand it off to them.

yeah, sorry about that, it was hyped up anger, with no place to vent it other than at marvel.:o


Originally posted by CobraCommander
Eh... I'll just go with Bat-Sheep or something that rolls off the tongue easier.

Boy-scout feels right;)

[Gambit8370]

Originally posted by the defenders
Never forget X-STATIC

Is it me, or is Doop














GOD


It's definately just you.

[iloveclones]

Originally posted by Jugsy
yeah, sorry about that, it was hyped up anger, with no place to vent it other than at marvel.:o


Seriously, rather than venting, pass it off to a girlfriend or little sister or something. I guarantee that they'll have a better response (and you might just turn them into a ....dare I say it.... MARVEL ZOMBIE!!!!

[Darthphere]

Originally posted by iloveclones
Seriously, rather than venting, pass it off to a girlfriend or little sister or something. I guarantee that they'll have a better response (and you might just turn them into a ....dare I say it.... MARVEL ZOMBIE!!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/darthphere/Zombie.jpg

[iloveclones]

Originally posted by darthphere
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/darthphere/Zombie.jpg


And PROUD of it!!!!

[The Batman]

Originally posted by CobraCommander
I'm just saying, because I'm not a biased reader. But I feel that fans on both sides are equally devoted and rabid.

Yet Marvel gets stuck with the "zombie" label.


Marvel "Zombies" act like idiots all the time, and are usually more vocal than DC Zombies.

On these boards alone, the DC boards always get hit with a "DC sucks" thread at least once a month.

The only DC- Zombie i know of on these boards is Highlander. And even he knows better than to go on a marvel board saying "Marvel sucks"

Not to mention, most DC fans read Marvel, or are former Marvel Zombies who realized that Marvel is not the end all, be all, and that there are other books out there

[The Batman]

and by the way, DC has three books in the top ten, not one

[Darthphere]

Originally posted by The Batman
Marvel "Zombies" act like idiots all the time, and are usually more vocal than DC Zombies.

On these boards alone, the DC boards always get hit with a "DC sucks" thread at least once a month.

The only DC- Zombie i know of on these boards is Highlander. And even he knows better than to go on a marvel board saying "Marvel sucks"

Not to mention, most DC fans read Marvel, or are former Marvel Zombies who realized that Marvel is not the end all, be all, and that there are other books out there

I agree Mavel zombies are more vocal but if you go to the Batman boards and disagree with something there theyll eat you alive. DC zombies exist but are less vocal. Im just glad Im bi-partisan and love both companies.

[Gambit8370]

I like DC better because they don't "Ultimize" their characters. :D

[The Batman]

I have a Love/hate relationship with the Ultimate line.

[Darthphere]

Originally posted by The Batman
I have a Love/hate relationship with the Ultimate line.

So do I. I love some titles and hate others. And the titles i love are bad sometimes. You undersatnd.:confused:

[CantThinkOfAName]

Originally posted by Gambit8370
I like DC better because they don't "Ultimize" their characters. :D Instead, they just have a Crisis for their regular universe characters and **** them up:)

[Zev]

Originally posted by CantThinkOfAName
Instead, they just have a Crisis for their regular universe characters and **** them up:)

No, you're completely wrong! Lex Luthor was always a bald corporate raider! In fact, long before the Kingpin!

[Dread]

Very informative article. Definately food for thought.

[GoldenAgeHero]

wow never saw this coming. but sundry cited a few things i think are good for the comic industry. the movies based on the characters, im sure the movies have peeks some interests in the comics again.

[kiuju2k]

So thats why I don't read much of marvel?

[THANOSRULES]

wow this post is 2 years old...but still pretty dead on.

Marv Wolfman is the Man..he Wanted the Rights for his (and my main man)NOVA and he left marvel forever as a result...

What I find weird though is marv doesnt attack the mature content of comics these days, but seems to lament that comics dont have "casual fans"...

I can remember the day you could pick up a Spiderman comic and didnt have to worry about a story about somebody getting raped or gutted.

[deemar325]

I just read it also, that's very insightful.

[iloveclones]

Just saw this in another thread and thought I'd bump it. Go to the first page and read the original interview. Good Stuff.

[roach]

I hate Marvel. I fully admit it. I hate what they are doing to the characters and I hate that there seems to be no rhyme or reason in the characters chosen for series. I hate Marvel because they could be doing so much more with the characters yet seem to want to destroy them. I hate Marvel because instead of writing and planning their characters for the future they seem to want to dwell on the past. No one seems to realize the problem with Spider-man isnt that he is married but that the writing is really crappy.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Yeah, ya know, I'd have no problem dedicatin' my $50 a week to quality Marvel backissues. Or, at least whatever's leftover after I buy quality distinguished competition books.

[roach]

it's like when my high school guidance counselor said I need to apply myself and I could be a grade A student and it pissed my mom off.

[iloveclones]

I feel bad about that, roach, because I really feel the opposite. I haven't had this much fun reading their comics, really, since I was a kid. I wish I could convince you otherwise, but I doubt I could. Hope springs Eternal, though....

[roach]

I havent bought a Marvel comic in a long time....
Blade: if you have Blade fighting supervillains then you dont know the character. There is a lack of supernatural in the MU and this could have reintroduced it.
Heroes 4 Hire: When you dont have Luke Cage and Iron Fist in this book and fill the book with c-listers you've pretty much put a time limit on the book.

[iloveclones]

Heroes 4 Hire: When you dont have Luke Cage and Iron Fist in this book and fill the book with c-listers you've pretty much put a time limit on the book.

That's probably 100% entirely accurate. But it has nothing to do with how good the book is, or whether or not I enjoy it (which I do.)

[LadyMoira]

Marvel’s problem comes from two sources. From what I see on the net, Joe Quesada’s matter of fact, unvarnished words, irritate the fans. They feel he’s arrogant and is explaining away bad decisions. As I say, I don’t know Joe, but from the letters he’s posted on the net I can tell he doesn’t have the ability to shmooze away stuff through the charm Stan showed. h#&%, none of us could even come close to having Stan’s charm which effused its way onto the written page.


Great interview that really sums up what's been wrong with Marvel lately...the new editors hold both the characters they're writing for and the fans that love them in contempt and it shows. They have no respect at all anymore...hell movie versions from the first two X-Men movies, to Sam Raimi' Spiderman trilogy, and even the animated Ultimate Avengers movies are more respectful to the original feel and mythos of the characters, (even if they take certain liberties in the need to translate to screen,) than Marvel has been in their latest storylines.

[Darthphere]

Im loving Marvel a lot more than I did in 03-04. So im happy.

[hippie_hunter]

That's probably 100% entirely accurate. But it has nothing to do with how good the book is, or whether or not I enjoy it (which I do.)

I'm hoping that once Gray and Palmiotti are off the book (which should be soon considering that they are now exclusive to DC), that Bendis will take the reigns of this book (take him off an Avengers title PLEASE), and add Luke Cage and Iron Fist.

I think that Bendis would be perfect for books such as Daredevil, the Punisher, and Heroes for Hire.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Uh, Bendis already DID Daredevil...he left it. And I want LESS Bendis, not more. No more titles fer that grade-A hack.

[SurfDUI]

I like DC better because they don't "Ultimize" their characters. :D

Maybe not Better, BUT RIGHT THE FREAK ON!!!!:cmad:

All these damn creators have there 'take' on the continuity and history of these characters, HOW BOUT CREATING SOME NEW DAMN COSTUMES!!:cmad:

[Phaedrus45]

I think one of the biggest reasons people complain about comics and hate what Marvel is doing today is one of the first reasons that he mentions in this thread: People grow up and their likes and dislikes change. Face it, Marvel cannot help us recapture the glory of what it was like to read these comics when we were kids.

There is still a part of me that can almost touch what it was like to rush out to the local 7-11, run home, and instantly read all my new comics. And, when I get that feeling nudging me at the back of my mind, it's when I see an old cover to a comic I used to own. Like this issue:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/78657649650.27.BRITISH.GIF

Like I said, I can almost feel what it was like when I read that comic many, many years ago. But, when I open it's pages, the magic is lost. I think, "hmmm, not quite what I remembered."

The same thing happened with me when I had all my Star Wars figures in the 70's to very early 80's. I used to play with those all the time. I could spend hours in my Star Wars make-believe world, with Star Wars figures interacting with Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, and Micronauts figures and playsets. Me and my best friend at the time would meet up, bring out figures together, and then hold a draft to who gets which characters. (Nobody wanted Princess Leia first...but, she was essential if you wanted any romance in your story.) Then, one day I thought, "I haven't played with those figures forever," and the magic was lost. I can still remember sitting in my room, thinking, "where did all the fun go?" One day you have it, then the next day it's gone.

Simpy put, for people like Roach...the comics haven't changed as much as we've changed. Seriously, comics are probably better now. And, if you sat down a group of adults, told them they were required to read comics from the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, and today, I really believe the vast majority would say comics are more interesting now than ever before. (But, I do believe that same majority would say the comics were better for kids in the past.)

For me, I have a lot more comics I love now than ever before. Lots of Marvel, like Annihilation, Heroes For Hire, and Runaways. Quite a few DC books, like Checkmate, Jonah Hex, and Detective Comics. Plus, some independant books, like Girls, Walking Dead, and Strangers In Paradise. Sure, the magic of yesterday isn't in me anymore....but, my appreciation for what's being put out on a weekly basis is more than ever.

[roach]

It could be that I have changed but I know the biggest part of the problem seems to be the boneheaded decisions that Marvel is making.

[SurfDUI]

I think one of the biggest reasons people complain about comics and hate what Marvel is doing today is one of the first reasons that he mentions in this thread: People grow up and their likes and dislikes change. Face it, Marvel cannot help us recapture the glory of what it was like to read these comics when we were kids.

Well written, but I feel any real fan of comics (that extends PRE '90's X-Men animated series) surley has more apreciation for the stories from the '70's or '80's. Were not talkin Spidey super stories. We do have a glut of creators who either are frequently late on there books (YOU ALL KNOW THIS WAS UNHEARD OF 10-20 YEARS AGO) put more language and more 'supposed' real situations, bang w/ the incessant and redundant snappy patter, repeatedly give us there take on the same characters...etc. What happened to the new characters? Now we have a bunch of hardcore heroe's and Wolverine is spread so damn thin it's rediculous (sp).

The same thing happened with me when I had all my Star Wars figures in the 70's to very early 80's. I used to play with those all the time. I could spend hours in my Star Wars make-believe world, with Star Wars figures interacting with Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, and Micronauts figures and playsets. Then, one day I thought, the magic was lost. "where did all the fun go?" One day you have it, then the next day it's gone.
:woot:

People just think that now we live in the future, everything before is invalid. :huh: I'ts just not true-adults have been reading comics for a while hence the Direct Market.

[Phaedrus45]

Well written, but I feel any real fan of comics (that extends PRE '90's X-Men animated series) surley has more apreciation for the stories from the '70's or '80's. Were not talkin Spidey super stories. We do have a glut of creators who either are frequently late on there books (YOU ALL KNOW THIS WAS UNHEARD OF 10-20 YEARS AGO) put more language and more 'supposed' real situations, bang w/ the incessant and redundant snappy patter, repeatedly give us there take on the same characters...etc. What happened to the new characters? Now we have a bunch of hardcore heroe's and Wolverine is spread so damn thin it's rediculous (sp).


But, in the past, if a comic was late, all they'd do is fill it in with a reprint. I remember having an issue of Fantastic Four that ended in a cliff-hanger. I had that issue for probably 5 years, reading it over and over, wishing I could find out what happened next. Well, 5 years later, I went to my first comic shop. Like the proverbial "kid in a candy store," I dug through all those back issue, buying up comics I'd been dying to get my hands on, including that following issue of FF. Guess what? REPRINT. I found out when I got home. (Back then, I had to drive an hour to get to that store, the closest comic shop near me.)

Anyway, looking back, that happened frequently enough. (And, let's not forget all the "reprint years" of those early X-Men books. Think if that happened today.) Plus, I noticed that many comics also had "filler stories," which meant that the writer couldn't get the next issue out; so, they filled it in with something else lying around. (I believe I remember enough of the group books, like FF, having some solo story to fill in some time.)

Now, aside from the regular books, Marvel was all about reprints. They had numerous issues set aside just to tell reprint stories. Heck, Giant-Sized usually meant 3 old stories from a comic character's past.

[roach]

i would rather have a well written filler story than a late book

[SurfDUI]

i would rather have a well written filler story than a late book

True enough, and the've done this in the past-but this current trend of creator teams for 6 months and then on to the next. Has the 'great' Jim Lee ever worked on a book for more than a year. Those Image guys tried-I'll give them that, and largely there upstarts were forgettable, but then too it was the nineties and flash was in big time.

I just feel left out, w/ all the "all star" titles and, Ultimate 'line' and gimmicky things. they are well presented, just a little cold.

[Phaedrus45]

i would rather have a well written filler story than a late book

...ah, but that's the catch. They weren't well-written. Usually, it pissed you off more that you were dying to find out what happened next, get the issue, then get home and realize they screwed you over.

Man, the more I think about it, the more this happened. Sometimes you don't even realize that you were getting filler. This month, Marvel put out Legion of Monsters from Marvel Premeire #28, I believe. It was neat to see they had this idea, but the story was just so terrible. Anyway, I noticed on the last page of that story, it said what the next issue was going to be called. Just at that same time, I had downloaded the entire Marvel Premeire collection, and I looked at issue #27. On the last page, it had the same "next issue" title as issue #28. So, this Legion of Monsters was just a filler.

Even the classic story from What If? involving Conan took a lot longer than they initially stated. If you read the letter page from What If? #4, Vol. 1, Roy Thomas states that due to delays they weren't able to present "Conan in the present" for that issue. In fact, it was delayed a second time, when in the letter page for Issue #9, they said they wished to present "Conan in the 20th Century" for that issue; but, were still unable to. Then, FINALLY, it stated at the end of Issue #11, "Next Issue: AT LAST! What if...Conan Walked The Earth Today??" Guess what happened? Yep, delayed AGAIN! Then, issue #12, it states, "Next: What if Conan Walked The Earth Today? This time for sure!"...and, after 20 months, that story finally came out. (Why 20 months? Because, What If? Vol. 1 was Bi-Monthly.) So, just imagine the stink over that fiasco if the internet was alive back then!

[iloveclones]

Another thing he said that struck me is that maxim that we've all heard many times before, "The customer is always right." I absolutely agree with that. I think any company that doesn't realize that is doomed to failure or mediocrity.

But anyone who has ever worked retail can tell you all about the customers that demanded satisfaction as though that saying was written right into the constitution. It's obnoxious. I feel like comic fans can be like that. If every single pet peeve of theirs isn't catered to, if writers/artists/EICs don't shower the fans with enthusiam (like Stan did), they throw a hissy fit.

So, if fans are put off, I put it on Marvel first. Because it costs them nothing to either say something nice, or nothing at all. That doesn't mean the fans aren't acting childish, though. (I'm not directing this at you guys.)

[Galact-Gal]

Phaedrus, the Conan What If? is really not a good example. In the first place, they didn't just stop the entire series until it came out. In the second place, I wouldn't consider all those stories that appeared before it as fillers.
Yes, I gnashed my teeth when Uncanny X-Men 106 came out--a filler that came just before the climax of the Introduction of the Shi'ar/M'Kraan Crystal Threatens the Universe storyline. But UXM was bi-monthly, & I would much rather have had a fill-in than wait 4 months for the next issue!
Nowadays I'm even less patient. If a regular issue is going to be a month or more late, give me a fill-in!

[SurfDUI]

But we have example after example of say Invincible Iron Man I have almost 200 straight issues, Amazing Spider-man ran straight for well over a decade, Detectice Comics, all concruant for years, all very popular titles. And these are not the Dreamwave type co. that just are upstarts.

Take Superman/Batman, what number are they on, surley not the number they should be since it's been out for like 3 years now and I rather like that title/pairing, these jokers just arn't punctual, and it's not even about Marvel-this is a current creator issue, and just one.

[Phaedrus45]

But, in the end, who's at fault? It's probably all divided equally. Here are just some thoughts that come to mind:

1) About Conan, yes those weren't fillers. But, that was used as an example in conjunction with the internet. If you were told 20 months ago a certain issue was coming out, there would be buzz about how long it took for the particular parties to deliver it.

2) The fans putting certain comic writers and artists on a pedistal (sp?) and buying whatever they put out, whether late or not, contributes to the companies letting deadlines go by. (Heck, many writers get more printed with their complaining about the comic industry than what they put out. If Steve Gerber is as great as he claims, he should be making the Foolkiller and Omega the Unknown style comics today. But, in the end, he's living off yesterday and comes across as a bitter, old man.)

3) I blame Image. To me, they really started this whole ball of wax. They left, were very vocal about it, and many of their letter pages were devoted to slamming the very companies that made them a star. But, in the end, they not only insulted a company that knew how to run a business (for, that's what this is, in the end), but they also created so many dividing lines between fans, artists, and companies. And, just like poetic justice, they all ended up doing the same to one another. It's amazing, but those people who complain and ***** about a company very vocally tend to do the same thing elsewhere. The common factor is generally not the companies for there disfavor, but themselves.

4) With the above statement, I can see people saying that Marvel doesn't know how to run the business. But, I disagree. Change takes time. Clearly, Marvel couldn't make the same books they made in the 60's - 80's. The 90's were so bad, because many of the top artists and writers felt they could just start things on their own and be successful. So, you are going to have to adjust to these changes.

Look at the timing. People point to how many comic shops were around in the glory days. But, many products have real sharp sales for a while, with a dipping off followed shortly. That's how this entertainment field works.

Look at tv. Every few years, something new is hot. Sitcoms are definitely out right now. The years of "Friends" style shows is gone. Slowly, the CSI-style shows are becoming less and less, with now the fad being shows that have a theme running throughout the year, like Jericho, Lost, Veronica Mars, or Desperate Housewives. Most reality shows peak, then viewers drop off drastically.

Look at wrestling. Vince McMahon was at the top, then along came WCW and Ted Turner. Vince, like Marvel, almost lost his company. But, then came the wrestling boom. It was big business, everyone watched the rating soar...but, now, they are desperate to capture their previous audience. It isn't that it's going to come back, it's that it was the fad for a while, now that audience has pretty much moved on.

Look at the internet. While many people still use it, just remember how many people have lost tons of money because they thought the internet was such a wave of the future, that you could have a dotcom name and be a success. Remember the Superbowl many years back and their commercials? They had, it seemed, half the commercials devoted to a dotcom type company. Everyone jumped on, and in the end, more people lost money than gained.

That's how I look at the comic industy. It will always be around, and it will have times of high growth; but, for the most part, that high growth won't be something that will ever stick. It will be a fad. All the figures about half a million comics selling for one issue in the past should never be considered the norm of what someone should compare comic sales on.

5) Comics just aren't as popular because kids today expect to have their desires given to them immediately. A movie in the theater only lasts a few weeks now. Then, in about 3-4 months, it's out on DVD. "Get it while it's hot" is the attitude. New tv shows cannot wait out their audience, like in the past. "Cheers" would never have lasted the first season. For that matter, "Seinfeld" wouldn't have lasted, either. They both tanked the first year. Today, the experts would just have said, "The sitcom is out. Lets go for a Lost-style program." Face it, you have to be patient if you are a comic reader. The current X-Men storyline is 12 issues long; Annihilation is taking 11 months to finish. Kids today don't have that kind of patience.

[Arkady Rossovich]

Marv Wolfman did make a good point.People bash Marvel,yet still buy.So if you dont like it,then dont buy it.There is change,some might not like it.

[Fading]

Good read, and I think he hit a lot of things on the head.

Marvel really doesn't have the feel of a community it used to, instead of it feeling closer to a group or club of ppl liking similar thing now it's replaced with ppl arguing over what writer did what in real life mixing the in comics world with real life anger over the one who draws it or writes it.

Not to count I have noticed the ones who seem the most vocal against marvel seem to be ones who admit to reading it in the past.

To me I know Marvel's produced tremendous books in the past, I never got into DC characters tho I have picked up a book from time to time from them, but Marvel's just been a good source of entertainment for me. Some years they go dry, and some would call me a Marvel Zombie, but I just prefer Marvel as I know I can find a book from them I like even if another of theirs is letting me down. I also don't think the 'Marvel hatred' goes too far past internet sites like these. I was flipping thru channels, and saw on a kids station (think it was nicolodian) they had a Marvel vs DC poll, Marvel won it with the kids 70% to DC's 30%. I look on sites less hardcore and it's about the same. You get to the hardcore comic sites where ppl know their characters a bit better and it gets more even or more on the anti-Marvel side of things, and not surprisingly u find plenty of posts hating on the writers, or those in charge.


One thing I will say tho is that I think the lack of means to buy the comics hurts the buisness a ton as he said. When I was a kid I could simply go to a local grocery store and there would be comics on the magazine rack, and I'd pick one up. Closer to early teens that stopped, and about mid teens a local comic shop opened up, and closed a few years later. Now if I want a comic I have to drive 30 miles to a slightly bigger city to one of their two comic stores, or order online. I think if comics were more accessible to everyone more would likely get picked up. If a kid or adult could see some on the mag rack at a local Walmart and not bend over backwards to find a place to buy them then sales might improve.

[BrianWilly]

Wow, I've never read that from Wolfman before. It's eerie how much something said years ago still applies so much to Marvel today.

[chamber-music]

I havent bought a Marvel comic in a long time....
Blade: if you have Blade fighting supervillains then you dont know the character. There is a lack of supernatural in the MU and this could have reintroduced it.
Heroes 4 Hire: When you dont have Luke Cage and Iron Fist in this book and fill the book with c-listers you've pretty much put a time limit on the book.

I totally agree with you here. I want to see a Blade comic where he fights vampires. Against villians like Deacon Frost. Even comic versions of Nomak and Danica from the movies as thats what renewd peoples intrest in the character. If you write good stories you don't need Spiderman or Wolverine to turn up in the book for no reason other than to get people to by it.

[roach]

Exactly Blade has a niche in a section of the Marvel U seldom seen....The supernatural. Vampires are tiresome...you still have all sorts of supernatural monsters form him to hunt down. I dont need to see Blade fight Paste Pot Pete to secure him in the Marvel Universe

[Doc Destruction]

Wow, I've never read that from Wolfman before. It's eerie how much something said years ago still applies so much to Marvel today.

They really just don't get it. It reminds me of how Sony used to treat EQ players like *****es. Where is EQ now? Exactly.

GREAT read. I could read that again and again.

[CaptainCanada]

One thing I will say tho is that I think the lack of means to buy the comics hurts the buisness a ton as he said. When I was a kid I could simply go to a local grocery store and there would be comics on the magazine rack, and I'd pick one up. Closer to early teens that stopped, and about mid teens a local comic shop opened up, and closed a few years later. Now if I want a comic I have to drive 30 miles to a slightly bigger city to one of their two comic stores, or order online. I think if comics were more accessible to everyone more would likely get picked up. If a kid or adult could see some on the mag rack at a local Walmart and not bend over backwards to find a place to buy them then sales might improve.
I agree. I strongly believe that the problems comics have in drawing in new readers are not related to the comics themselves, but to the delivery. Last year, my parents took in my mother's sister's son for a number of months; my cousin was in junior high, but with next to no reading skills or interest in reading; I gave him my Astonishing X-Men comics, and he loved them, and then started reading The Ultimates and a bunch of others. He's now moved back with his father, and is a regular reader of comics titles. Kids love Marvel's (and DC's) superheroes, and even if (as someone said in this thread) they don't have the patience to wait for monthly titles, there's 40 years of stories that can be found. Comics are just too remote for kids these days.

[Phaedrus45]

I agree. I strongly believe that the problems comics have in drawing in new readers are not related to the comics themselves, but to the delivery. Last year, my parents took in my mother's sister's son for a number of months; my cousin was in junior high, but with next to no reading skills or interest in reading; I gave him my Astonishing X-Men comics, and he loved them, and then started reading The Ultimates and a bunch of others. He's now moved back with his father, and is a regular reader of comics titles. Kids love Marvel's (and DC's) superheroes, and even if (as someone said in this thread) they don't have the patience to wait for monthly titles, there's 40 years of stories that can be found. Comics are just too remote for kids these days.

If I owned a shop, I would not bring comics into my store. First, all magazine sales have dropped significantly. Look at TV Guide. That used to be the most popular selling magazine at the super market. Now, they have tried to keep themselves alive by ditching the actual "tv guide" section and just focus on entertainment articles. Plus, the amount of money you make with a magazine rack is very little of a store's income.

When I worked for Long's Drug, I was in charge of half the store. My store manager was really cool, and let us take chances. Well, since I had the front end of the store, I was in charge of books and magazines. I tried to shake it up, bring in more popular stuff...but, it didn't matter. The amount of sales never changed, and in the end it was a failed experiment. In fact, I noticed that magazines geared towards kids lost me money. It was a high theft item. And, those who did like the magazines just sat around the store and read them there to pass the time.

Plain and simple, you don't want your store to bring in a certain clientel. Teenagers, in particular, don't spend much money, besides maybe a candy bar and a pop. (And, with the soda's, you generally find them trying to find the "free pop" caps, anyway.) Teens tend to loiter, and frankly, an older clientel doesn't want to come into a retail store with a bunch of teenagers and kids.

[ShadowBoxing]

The article is crap...sorry.

It assumes Marvel exists in some vaccum. The fact is, the real truth is the world changes and therefore comics must change. Art, writing style, editorial staffs cannot do the same thing forever and ever.

Stan Lee corny over the top nature and his exposition filled stories, as much as we like them, would never work today. If they re-leased Spider-Man #1 (or Amazing Fantasy #15) as it was in the 1960s today you'd never hear the name Spider-Man again. The adult readership would mock the origin, think the art was atrocious, they may even pick apart the plot and costume design.

Readers grow old, the change, a new generation comes in demanding something different. I have friends who look at Born Again, no I am not kidding, and hate the art. Hate it, because it's not crisp and computer enhanced like todays. I love it, but then again that is what I grew up reading.

Since my first issue, since my days of collecting every issue of Transformers and X-Men I could buy, things have changed. Image came out. Action movies got darker and more realistic. The gore, nudity and langauge content went up in movies. Comics and cartoons started catering to adults and late teenagers. South Park, the Simpsons and Family Guy now dominate the cartoon market when once Looney Tunes was king. The internet openned up increasing the number of spoilers and complaints that can be heard and exchanged.

I like some of Marv's points but he misses the big picture.

I think what he misses is key. I'd collect every issue up until about 1992-1994. Why, because that is what I am used to. I know guys who swear by the ninties though and think the Infinite Guantlet and Heroes Return are awesome. I am not that guy.

Look at comics today, higher production value, better and more highly paid writing staffs, spinoff movies and TV series. But they aren't 80s issues, or 70s, or 60s, but those aren't necessarily better...just what some are used to.