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-   -   Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight? (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=462079)

Supermouse 07-29-2013 06:21 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Here is how I hope the fight goes down:

Batman ambushes Superman in some fashion, drawing him to a secluded location. Probably a smelting location with tons of ambient lead. Batman unleashes a variety of different attacks against Superman, which are all effective to varying degrees (IE: Claymore = Distracting, Blinding lights = Annoying, Etc) and finally gets Clark into his final trap, probably a ton of molten steel poured on his head or something. Clark makes it through that just fine and is now really upset with this human weirdo. He finds Bruce, pins him down, and his eyes glow red as he is prepared to use Heat Vision.

"Explain why I shouldn't melt you down, like you tried to do to me!"

Batman produces a mirror.

Batman - "What do you see?"

Superman sees his own face with an angry expression and eyes glowing like Zods did.

Batman - "What does the world see?"

And after exchanging some dialogue (which I am by no means talented enough to write) Superman realizes it's not enough to mean well, he is in a position where he has to let the world know he means well or they will turn on him out of fear. Fear is something Batman knows a little about. After that they decide to trust each other on a provisional basis.

Or something.

robot 07-29-2013 06:25 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x (Post 26492253)
Honestly, I've never, even in the JLA cartoon (which I loved) bought Batman being a physical match in any fight with people of Superman's caliber.

It's just ridiculous, unless he's in an Iron Man type suit, the guy would get crushed in a moment. The only reason I've enjoyed a few of the Supes vs. Batman fights in select comics (TDKR, Hush) is because you know that Superman is holding back, and that's the only reason that Batman is alive.



See, even in the WF movie I thought that was incredibly stupid. It doesn't matter how good of a martial artist you are, you're dealing with a being that can move faster than you can think, and is so strong he could get hit with a tank missile and barely flinch. Batman being able to flip Superman was foolish. Even if Superman wasn't taking him seriously.

Exactly... it takes total 'suspension of disbelief or suspension of any kind of logic' to even believe Batman can even fight superman physically... :doh:

Shikamaru 07-29-2013 06:49 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x (Post 26492253)
Honestly, I've never, even in the JLA cartoon (which I loved) bought Batman being a physical match in any fight with people of Superman's caliber.

It's just ridiculous, unless he's in an Iron Man type suit, the guy would get crushed in a moment. The only reason I've enjoyed a few of the Supes vs. Batman fights in select comics (TDKR, Hush) is because you know that Superman is holding back, and that's the only reason that Batman is alive.



See, even in the WF movie I thought that was incredibly stupid. It doesn't matter how good of a martial artist you are, you're dealing with a being that can move faster than you can think, and is so strong he could get hit with a tank missile and barely flinch. Batman being able to flip Superman was foolish. Even if Superman wasn't taking him seriously.

Batman barely physically approaches opponents from less than two meters in JL fights. He usually keeps his distance. Most of his JL fights compose of him throwing batarangs, smoke bombs, and other weapons + using the dark to his advantage to create distractions for the villain(s) to create a quick opening to then strike. Only in that split second does he approach supervillains with powers up close to take them out. That or he already has a weapon prepared for a particular villain prior to the start of the fight.

Project862006 07-29-2013 07:03 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
yup should mold some kryptonite batarangs lol

Tequilla 07-29-2013 09:49 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
EDIT

baaaaaaah. Those are some strict rules !

Tks Deserana.

:funny::funny::funny:

It's never fair for Clark.

Deserana 07-29-2013 10:00 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
You may want to delete that due to language but still. That's amazing.

Tequilla 07-29-2013 10:32 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
It's safe now :woot:

http://i.imgur.com/EXUhED9.jpg

The bat symbol in the sun :funny:

FlawlessVictory 07-29-2013 10:34 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
:lmao:

TheFlamingCoco 07-29-2013 10:39 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deserana (Post 26496565)
You may want to delete that due to language but still. That's amazing.

And yet, Superman desintegrating is okay :oldrazz:

But yes, that's a great satire on how Batman's written in comics.

As for the movie, I'd want Superman to basically swat Batman (like parents who corporeally punish their children), but try to avoid punching as much as possible, until Batman gets soo aggresive in his robot suit that Superman is forced to do so, but the impact causes him to SLAM into the ground hard, cracking his suit. Then have Superman check for organ damage with his X-ray vision, and find that he's only minorly bruised.

Embarrased, Batman stops fighting. Or something.

robot 07-29-2013 11:02 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tequilla (Post 26496757)
It's safe now :woot:

http://i.imgur.com/EXUhED9.jpg

The bat symbol in the sun :funny:

This is EXACTLY the type of writing that is needed to get batman to win... it's completely ridiculous..

You can probably throw a a billion tons of kryptonite into the sun, and it'll dis-integrate, without turning the sun into one giant radiating kryptonite machine...

Tequilla 07-29-2013 11:38 AM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
The thing is...everything in these comics has a degree of ridiculousness. And the moment you crossover them , it grows exponentially.

There's absolutely no reason for these characters to coexist. But if they do , then yeah , they need an extreme version of Batman to cohabit and be relevant in that universe.

Hence...prep-time , the world's strongest weapon.

JeetKuneDo 07-30-2013 12:28 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crunchwrap (Post 26429615)
Considering the Man of Steel sequel will officially have a physical fight between Superman and Batman..

Ugh...really? :whatever:

This is for Batfans, isn't it? They need to make up their minds.

Batfan on why they don't like Superman: "He an unbeatable god!"
Batfan on Batman: "He's an unbeatable god!"

Batman should never be in the same universe with super powered heroes. There would be no logical need for him in the world and ridiculous scenarios like this are going to pop up because of Batman's popularity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikamaru (Post 26459381)
I find the whole "Superman can easily rip Batman's head off because Batman has no powers" argument to be a bit odd. That is not how a fight between them would work out. Batman is not an idiot. He would not walk up to Superman and just start throwing fists at him, even with Kryptonite. A legitimate fight between them with no PIS involved would not be handled that way.

The question is: "Why does Superman have to be an idiot?"

Somehow Batman knows everything and never makes an error while Supes never uses his genius intellect or his powers. It's PIS every time.

Supes can move faster than Bats can think...game over. There is no "plan" for that. That's a Supes who doesn't even bother to think too. There is no way for a normal human to beat someone with super speed even if the speedster is a moron. Add in the fact that Supes has repeated demonstrated he is able to overcome incredible odds to win and Batman has zero chance.

Yet...writers somehow write ridiculous scenarios where Supes loses when he has an overwhelming advantage?

....Or do they? (More below)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan (Post 26474857)
I'm gonna add Black Panther VS Silver Surfer to this.

http://i.imgur.com/MchAILh.jpg

Oh come on...that's absurd as well. Not quite as absurd as "Batman beats Superman", but it's getting there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Project862006 (Post 26478063)
you know the difference right?

batman knows how to fight

superman doesn't

not saying he'd win but people forget bruce is a trained fighter while superman has the fight experience of a 10 year old and didn't have his first fight till he was 33

So are we going with the versions from MoS and TDK here? Because Superman knows how to fight in the comics. And the "Batman" in Nolan's trilogy makes a lot of mistakes and is a cripple at the end of TDKR.

Or are we going to use the MoS Supes and the comic version of Bats?
Quote:

Originally Posted by robot (Post 26479477)
Except that he does.. when it comes to batman, he's constantly trying to fight him.. but always loses... dang!!!

Let's check on that....first the claim from Batfan:
Quote:

Originally Posted by D.P. (Post 26479505)
Well, it doesn't matter whether or not you or anyone else agrees with how it happened, what matters is it happened.

These moments exist and some are canonical, some aren't. They were printed on ink and paper and can never be changed because they are part of history.

Batman has bested Superman several times - fact.

Writers have always written Superman as showing restraint towards 99% percent of his opponents and Batman has always been written as one of the smartest minds in the entire DC universe on top of being a master strategist. Your beef is with the writers then if you have a problem with that.

You can't argue source material though, mainline universe or not.

Let's see if this claim holds up:

Batman has never, and I do mean never, beaten Superman in canon content. Even with prep, his chances of beating Superman are not exactly ideal. To that end, I've compiled a list of all their encounters in both canon and non canon material. I'm pretty sure this is every fight they've ever had, but there might be one or two that I missed. This is mainly so people can shut up about Batgod beating Superman or Superman being a loser because Batman has supposedly beaten him based on one or two out of context scans they've seen floating around on the internet.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/cit...-batman/79268/

I'll keep this one handy for the next time a Batfan posts a panel from one of those issues.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan (Post 26479599)
Yes I can. If it's not properly written, and doesn't follow any sort of internal logic, I'm not gonna acknowledge squat. Like when Marvel had Black Panther put Silver Surfer into an armlock. Or the cross over comics, where Batman successfully managed to kick Hulk into the stomach hard enough, so he was forced to breath in the knock out gas. You know, instead of just breaking every single bone in his foot. I see pages like that, I automatically retcon that stuff.

Same here. A badly written illogical story is not something I have to accept. If a writer comes up with a story where Jarvis the butler eats the Sun, I'm not going to buy into it and "accept it because it was written in a comic".

Quote:

Originally Posted by StraightSix (Post 26487349)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L8q7dY2MnU

Zack Snyder doesn't seem to think so

Thank god.

Snyder came up with the best answer possible to this question by the way. "Really?" ...But Goyer is in this mix too...and he made Supes pretty dumb in MoS. :doh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by robot (Post 26497019)
This is EXACTLY the type of writing that is needed to get batman to win... it's completely ridiculous..

You can probably throw a a billion tons of kryptonite into the sun, and it'll dis-integrate, without turning the sun into one giant radiating kryptonite machine...

Not to mention....Batman injected a ton of kryptonite into his bones? Really? And he somehow knew Supes would kick him into the sun? Just one illogical thing on top of another.

We can laugh, but Goyer might just be a bad enough writer to pull this off.

There are so many problems with this whole thing.

First, Nolan/Goyer's Batman is not prepared for everything. (Catwoman is actually working for him and he doesn't know it) So now he's suddenly going to transform into this perfect being who never makes mistakes and knows everything?

Ok...so Batman is going to know all of Supes' weaknesses in this movie so he can "beat him". This means that Batman will know everything about Superman....but not figure out that Supes is a good guy who isn't a threat. Yeah...that makes sense. Batman will somehow not bother to look into the most important thing there is to know about Supes which would effect all decisions Batman made about him... Batman will be perfect and never make mistakes....except for that very important one about Supes' character. Huh? Anything to get them to "fight", right? PIS indeed.

Which brings up another problem. This "Superman will hold back" stuff is missing an important thing. There is no reason for them to fight unless Supes has gone rogue. And guess who won't be "holding back" if he goes rogue? Let me guess....Batman will make his only mistake again and only think Supes went rogue, right? :word:

I hear that Supes gave Batman a kryptonite ring in case he went rogue. If Batman was really as smart as Batfans claim, Batman would have refused that offer. "No thanks dude!" Guess who will be dead 0000.01 seconds after Superman goes rogue? Yep...the guy with the kyptonite ring. "Plan" that!

After the writer ignores all logic to get to the point where they are doing battle, then he gets to turn Supes into a blithering idiot so Batman can best him. This is going to be epic bad writing that could be mocked for generations. Goyer might just become immortal for this...he could become the anti-Shakespeare. Teachers in the future may be holding him up as an example of what to avoid.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tequilla
There's absolutely no reason for these characters to coexist. But if they do , then yeah , they need an extreme version of Batman to cohabit and be relevant in that universe.

Hence...prep-time , the world's strongest weapon.

Actually, the strongest weapon in comics is popularity. Spider-Man and Wolverine have that power in Marvel comics when they have to go against characters like the Hulk.

PacificBoy 07-30-2013 12:43 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
C'mon, everyone knows the fight will be an unfair one...


Crunchwrap 07-31-2013 03:22 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
To sum up why Batman doesn't stand a chance, and how this movie is going to go down...

Superman: I could wipe you out like a meteor to some dinosaurs.

Batman:
Oh please, I survived an atom bomb.

Superman:
You mean you tricked everyone into thinking you were in the atom bomb explosion. Dude, you got stabbed by your lady friend, when she was right next to you. You punched the joker over and over again, and all he did was laugh. Bane
broke your back, and you didn't even defeat him - that was Catwoman technically... and Alfred even saved you from your own burning house one time!

Batman:
Yep. I went through all of that, and I'm still standing.

TheFlamingCoco 07-31-2013 04:41 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ElDuderino (Post 26442585)
A few points people try to use in this debate that are ridiculous.

1. "Batman is, like, wicked smart." I'm not sure why the son of two genetically engineered scientists from an advanced alien race would be dumb. His intelligence almost certainly would be well past "genius" by any human standard.

2. "Batman can do anything with enough prep time." Give them both weeks to prepare some scheme. Superman could go on vacation the whole time, then need mere seconds to replicate or assemble something more advanced given his super speed.

3. "Duh, kryptonite!" Oh, Batman is 20 feet away with kryptonite? Superman blasts him with heat vision.

There really is no conceivable way for Batman to beat him. The reality is, Superman makes the conscious decision every day to ALLOW Batman to exist and do what he does. Batman is an ant compared to him.

Which is why a prepared Batman should "sneak attack him" with Supes holding back the whole time. When he finally wrestles Batman away, it should be clear that this wasn't really a fight as much as it is Batman being a jerk to someone not intending to fihgt.

It's like a little kind beating the big guy on the playground. You wouldn't call that a fight, because there's no real retaliation.

Superman should throw Batman like a rag doll and catch him in midair, just to silence the "Batman can beat him easily" crowd.

Kevin Smith 07-31-2013 04:51 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Superman's faces a billionaire genius inventor philanthropist "playboy" on an almost daily basis....except this guy doesn't have a no kill policy and genuinely wants to kill and humiliate him. That's who his archenemy is in case you haven't guessed.

Now put him against a guy who is all that but has a bat motif with everything.

Batman = Lex Luthor.

Enriquespy 07-31-2013 05:21 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
That is an exelent.point. If lex can be a menace to Supes, why not batman?

TheFlamingCoco 07-31-2013 05:49 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Enriquespy (Post 26521201)
That is an exelent.point. If lex can be a menace to Supes, why not batman?


Because Lex is more ruthless than Batman is. Also, the power suit is bigger.

Kevin Smith 07-31-2013 07:03 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Enriquespy (Post 26521201)
That is an exelent.point. If lex can be a menace to Supes, why not batman?

I more so meant that as that as Batman in all realistic likeliness would be a piece of cake to Superman.

But that is a good way of looking at it as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco (Post 26521529)
Because Lex is more ruthless than Batman is. Also, the power suit is bigger.

Exactly.

Regardless of who, kryptonite is always going to be the ultimate physical trump for whichever human opponent Superman faces physically, but Luthor could torment Superman in all sorts of ways that will make the audience hate him so much that they WISH Superman would just kill him. If I were the writer I'd be approaching Luthor from that angle (also, slightly off topic, but I'd find a way to get that great John Byrne story in which Luthor humiliates a waitress by propositioning her to come away with him for a month for a million bucks with no intentions of following through with his promise just to torment her to illustrate what a despicable person Luthor is, lol).

I am interested to see how Batman VS Superman will pan out especially if Luthor is the real "bad guy", because you will essentially have Superman against two "Lex Luthors" if you think about it, really (Or "Batmans", whichever you prefer :o ).

A&W 07-31-2013 08:33 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
What if Batman is the one who creates kryptonite? He could gather some intelligence and learn how Superman was harmed by the terraforming effects of the world engine during the events of the first movie. Then he experiments using elements and alloys found at the site where the terraforming first started to occur.

TheFlamingCoco 07-31-2013 09:27 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
^ I don't like the idea of Batman intentionally putting Superman in danger, though. I'd want Batman to try to subdue and capture Superman, only to realize that Superman is more powerful than he can imagine, and the only reason he's alive is because Supes is letting him attack.

Kevin Smith 07-31-2013 10:26 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by A&W (Post 26522819)
What if Batman is the one who creates kryptonite? He could gather some intelligence and learn how Superman was harmed by the terraforming effects of the world engine during the events of the first movie. Then he experiments using elements and alloys found at the site where the terraforming first started to occur.

Hate that idea. Batman creating kryptonite would suck.

Kevin Smith 07-31-2013 10:27 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco (Post 26523183)
^ I don't like the idea of Batman intentionally putting Superman in danger, though. I'd want Batman to try to subdue and capture Superman, only to realize that Superman is more powerful than he can imagine, and the only reason he's alive is because Supes is letting him attack.

Now this I can dig. I like that a lot, actually, only...would Batman do something like that? Capture a "live specimen" for study?

EssayM 08-01-2013 12:02 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Just throwing a couple things in...

After what happened in Metropolis, it's fair assume that every perceivable detail about the battle has been broadcast all over the planet. So someone like Bruce Wayne, with a ton of observational training and scientific know-how built up over the years, would have plenty of opportunities to note Supes's different abilities, how he fights, everything one would need to know to challenge him. Plus, while Superman has become world-famous, Batman by this point is a relative unknown by comparison. Supes would have no reason to even know he exists, let alone go looking for him. So "prep time" would be completely believable here.

Also, consider their individual fighting experience. Superman, with all his powers, is not the god that everyone seems to think he is. He may be tougher than most, but he still has human physiology and he still grew up on a farm with no more combat training than anyone else....both disadvantages when facing a world-class martial artist and master strategist. (I should probably mention that the Silver Surfer and Hulk examples above totally make sense to me.) Not to mention that, after what happened with Zod, Supes is probably not eager to have another death on his hands and would probably be holding back to avoid killing him. Batman, on the other, knows that his opponent is nigh-invulnerable and would be able to throw everything he has at the guy without worrying about breaking his rule. With all of these established conditions, there are plenty of ways to even the playing field and make it a fair fight.

Now with that said....who says they have to fight?

I mean, it would make sense that their would be some tension between them, given their many extreme differences, but why would they necessarily have to physically engage each other? Bruce Wayne could just as easily watch the footage of Superman fighting in Metropolis and decide that the two of them have the same goal, even complement each other. This would be especially strong if there ends up being a common enemy (Lex Luthor, Joker, both, doesn't matter) and they both are forced to team up, despite their differences. Then you could have some good character interaction that doesn't involve them both being a$$holes to each other, while still getting the awesome team-up that we came to see. I personally would much rather see that than Batman and Superman knocking each other around for an hour, plus five minutes of plot and character development.

TheFlamingCoco 08-01-2013 12:19 PM

Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith (Post 26523629)
Now this I can dig. I like that a lot, actually, only...would Batman do something like that? Capture a "live specimen" for study?

No, for the containment of a perceived threat. He just wants to keep Superman prisoner so that he won't harm anyone else.

I don't like the idea of Batman creating Kryptonite, either. If anything Lex should create it, but I like the idea of it being meteor samples that are used to form an alternative battery source, like with Metallo. I like the idea of Lex learning Superman's weakness from pure coincidence.


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