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-   -   "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=468629)

walltron 11-06-2014 10:18 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gildedmuse (Post 30058915)
This gif right here.

Ultron has just crashed the Avengers party were moments earlier we see a more relaxed, fun loving Hawkeye almost completely absent from the first movie and then suddenly Ultron comes in and starts on his little puppet speech.

Does this particular shot remind anyone from a scene from the original Avengers? Like the framing even looks similar. And Hawkeye looks pissed as hell, like he's been a puppet before but now he's his own man and he doesn't take kindly to Ultron's little spiel.

While everyone in the party scene seems generally shocked, Tony and Barton seem to be having markedly different reactions and to me this whole scene just screams out as a reminder that Barton has been a puppet but not anymore.

while thats a "2deep4me" way to look at it, im almost positive that he is zoomed in on solely and simply because he looks to be going for a weapon in the next scene. he is the only one sneaking off to the side while the others gaze at ultron. which is something he would do since he is was a trained agent and all.

gildedmuse 11-06-2014 11:24 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
It's not just the close up shot, though, it's the look on his face and everything. It just seems that during Ultron's speech two reactions really stand out: his and Tony's. Tony's is weird right from the beginning, since when that screeching noise makes everyone in the room wince except Tony who seems to immediately look worried, like part of him knows what is coming.

Barton's stands out not just because of how quickly he goes from easy going to tense or how, while the rest of the Avengers are standing there listening, he seems to be taking action, but the particular shot they choose to show just feels very reminiscent of one from the first film where he was, essentially, a puppet, and that's something I'm sure left an impression. Knowing that wouldn't it make sense that he is one of the people that Ultron's speech would immediately hit the hardest? Barton probably thinks of himself as a free man now, knowing what it is like to be controlled by someone else, and now this monstrosity drags itself into his "home" and says he's nothing more than a puppet. That has to hurt.

walltron 11-07-2014 02:23 AM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gildedmuse (Post 30059239)
It's not just the close up shot, though, it's the look on his face and everything. It just seems that during Ultron's speech two reactions really stand out: his and Tony's. Tony's is weird right from the beginning, since when that screeching noise makes everyone in the room wince except Tony who seems to immediately look worried, like part of him knows what is coming.

Barton's stands out not just because of how quickly he goes from easy going to tense or how, while the rest of the Avengers are standing there listening, he seems to be taking action, but the particular shot they choose to show just feels very reminiscent of one from the first film where he was, essentially, a puppet, and that's something I'm sure left an impression. Knowing that wouldn't it make sense that he is one of the people that Ultron's speech would immediately hit the hardest? Barton probably thinks of himself as a free man now, knowing what it is like to be controlled by someone else, and now this monstrosity drags itself into his "home" and says he's nothing more than a puppet. That has to hurt.



You gotta understand the the clip was chopped up. We don't know how long ultron talks for in the final scene so I wouldn't say he goes from easy going to tense quickly. Ultron may lecture them for 2 or 3 minutes. He may even have a full conversation with them. Im tellin you, he is only zoomed in on because he is the first guy making a move and the trailer lines that shot of him up with the "you are all puppets" line out of coincidence. He will most likely say that line at the very beginning of his entrance and continue ranting. Im sure its the way the trailer is edited. Doesn't mean the actual line and that close up of him will line up. I hear what you are saying, I really do but I don't think this is what was intended at all. "Barton probably thinks of himself as a free man now". Free man now? It's not like he was controlled for years and years and years like the winter soldier. He was controlled for like what? A week to two weeks at the most by loki? Mind you, he made him kill few ppl but it wasn't for that long.

On top of that every marvel movie (except ironman 3 which took place 6 months after the avengers) takes place in real time after it is released. So by the time AOU comes out, it would have been 3yrs since the whole mind control thing. 3yrs... I'm positive barton is way over that. You just make it seem like he is this guy that was a sad enslaved soul who was forced to torture ppl or sumthin. He got controlled for a bit. Shot some ppl. Snapped out of it. Came to terms and most assuredly moved on. Whedon doesn't make the trailers. In fact most of the time independent companies do. Even so, I doubt whedon will be going for the poor barton was a puppet routine at all during the movie.

gildedmuse 11-07-2014 03:06 AM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by walltron (Post 30059833)
On top of that every marvel movie (except ironman 3 which took place 6 months after the avengers) takes place in real time after it is released. So by the time AOU comes out, it would have been 3yrs since the whole mind control thing. 3yrs... I'm positive barton is way over that. You just make it seem like he is this guy that was a sad enslaved soul who was forced to torture ppl or sumthin. He got controlled for a bit. Shot some ppl. Snapped out of it. Came to terms and most assuredly moved on. Whedon doesn't make the trailers. In fact most of the time independent companies do. Even so, I doubt whedon will be going for the poor barton was a puppet routine at all during the movie.

I'm sorry, I don't mean for it to come out that dramatic, just to point out that out of everyone in the room Hawkeye has a very personal experience and associate with the whole idea of being someone's puppet, even if only for a short while. I'm not saying he's spent the last few years brooding over it - the Clint we see at the beginning of the clip comes off as a very cool guy - just that it isn't something he's going to have a good reaction to, that's all.

I doubt it will be an angst reaction, either though. I think we're going to get to see a Hawkeye who is cool and fun and lighthearted and then we're going to see a BAMF Hawkeye who takes some exception to Ultron's words, that's all.

Of all the Avengers in that room, in that moment, the line would have the most personal impact on Hawkeye especially when you consider that to the audience, the whole Loki event was the last we saw of him. So to have that shot which looks reminiscent of his whole Loki's Puppet persona after pointedly showing us a way more chill Barton... You don't think the trailer might have been cut to give that impression, at the very least?

Shikamaru 11-07-2014 08:16 AM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Technically anyone who's worked for SHIELD has at one point been a puppet to HYDRA. Hawkeye was of their top agents even before Widow joined and, in retrospect, had to carry out their dirty work for them.

gildedmuse 11-08-2014 05:21 AM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikamaru (Post 30060375)
Technically anyone who's worked for SHIELD has at one point been a puppet to HYDRA. Hawkeye was of their top agents even before Widow joined and, in retrospect, had to carry out their dirty work for them.

I was actually going to bring up that it might have a particularly cruel punch to it for Black Widow as well, especially considering her line in TWS about trading in the KGB for SHIELD and not really knowing who lies she was telling. On the other hand, Hawkeye's situation is obviously a little different as not only did he have to deal with SHEILD's collapse and learning of the HYDRA infestation but he was literally brainwashed into playing Loki's puppet. So while I think Natasha's character would feel the personal sting of those lines, I think he focus is likely to be on Hawkeye.

I mean assuming these lines are actually true to the film and not simply being used as part of making an awesome trailer, it fits very well thematially to put focus on Hawkeye's reaction to being called a puppet precisely because his story has sort of been on hold since the last Avengers film, and while the characters will have all been changed by their experiences of the past films:

A. Hakweye doesn't have that filler, so audiences are going to associate him with the last time they saw him.

B. In A1 as I'm sure will be the case with A2 Joss did a wonderful job of utilizing the characters as if they had gone through all their various solos while also limiting his reliance on the audience needing to have seen any of those films. So while I imagine Black Widow's personality (and of course the setting as a whole) will have been effected by TWS I don't expect that Whedon would heavily rely on precise scenes/character arcs. In other words, he might show how that line gets to Natasha without lingering on specifics. Hawkeye's a different story as his big "puppet" moment was in A1 which I think Joss will be more open to grabbing from.

C. Because I think the first movie will be more specifically referenced than the solo films and because Hawkeye has no real character movement in that film and since one of the themes (at least as presented in the trailer) is free will verses being controlled, it would be a great way to utilize what happened to Hawkeye in the first movie to create character drama. In a way it almost retroactively helps what was admittedly poor usage in A1 if that experience were to somehow directly effect his character and reaction in A2.

If you watch A1 now it's just like, "Oh, Hawkeye is a zombie through most of this" but if after A2 you watch it and think, "Oh, that explains the way he takes Ultron's comment so personal/the way he is able to talk to the twins when they are being controlled by Ultron/Why he struggles so hard and reacts like he does to SW's 'playing' with his mind" it won't fix Hawkeye's treatment in A1, but it would sort of help make it more easy to justify if in A2 it really helps to push his character development. At least then his time as a puppet isn't merely for convince of the plot, it actually means something to the character and the direction they go in.

Which isn't to say it will happen and it is something that is definitely and utterly true, just that I honestly think it could be a good way to move the character and the way they cut the party scene in the trailer really does appear to me to emphasis on Hawkeye's reaction during the scene. Not just the way he seems to be on guard and ready for action it also happens to use a clip that's reminisce of a brainwashed Hawkeye from A1 after pointedly showing us a very different man earlier. I just think it has the potential to be an interesting character moment that could just as easily be nothing with his time in A1 never mentioned.

RedRose 11-08-2014 12:51 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
My opinoin is Clint and Nataha, more than anyone else, are used to adversaries spouting off their agenda. I don't think they would be personally affected in that point of the movie...its probably more like "holy crap, why is this robot walking and talking on its own volition."

Kevin Feige also mentioned this about Clint:

Quote:

Well, I think we saw that in The Avengers already. We saw the scene where he is with Widow, and he’s coming out of that, and he’s dealing with the repercussions of that. That was sort of it for Hawkeye. Selvig was held in that Loki trance a little bit longer and only popped out at the very, very end, so I think his repercussions [are more significant]. And also, Hawkeye is a field operative of SHIELD. Selvig is a university professor. [Laughs] So they deal with it in different ways.
Not trying to discount all the great meta on Clint, but that's just my opinion. I do think it is awesome how he went from drunk (or at least tipsy) to hyper-focus...MCU Clint seems so fricken bad-ass, I love it!

walltron 11-09-2014 11:40 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
man...i just really hope they can win the audience over with clint this time...

they handled him so poorly the first time. You are introducing a new hero into a movie with established characters. You spend zero time explaining him. barely give him any lines. regulate him to silent bad guy for most of the movie and then just throw him in there for the final battle hoping him "looking cool" at the end would make up for the lack of character development they gave him. So sloppy. I know TWS won over alot of ppl for cap, but that was his movie. It will be alot harder for hawkeye who has to share the screen with what? 7 other heroes.. Now they have the task of justifying why he even is an avenger(which I find is the biggest criticism he gets from most ppl), who he really is and also make him likeable. good luck

MbJ 11-10-2014 03:46 AM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
It will be a bit easier to get Hawkeye screentime this time since the major problem pacing-wise with the first Avengers was that they had to actually provide an origin story for the team. So much of the movie was actually spent assembling the Avengers (notice Thor only shows up an hour into the movie) that there wasn't a lot of time for any real character development.

gildedmuse 11-14-2014 02:02 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
The first movie was definitely more focused on "team development" than on individual characters. If you listen to the commentaries and interviews, Joss had a lot more Cap-Focused scenes, and it sounds as though it was quite a kill your darlings experience when he was forced to cut it, but he did so understanding it was for the over all good of the film.

So far what we've heard/seen of AoU comes off as much more character-driven. It's still going to build them as a team, but it's also set up to test those bonds in a way that - I think - will give a lot of focus to the characters. Far more than the first, at least, to the point where I'm a bit worried this film will be more about individual arcs and may lack a single, defining one for the team as a while. But then I know that when it comes out, even if it was nothing BUT character drama I would totally love it.

Anyway, we see a lot more of Hawkeye's personality shine through in the trailer than in Thor/Avengers combined, and honestly I don't know a lot of GA members who came away with a BAD impression of Hawkeye - mostly them seem to rank him somewhere between 'forgettable' to 'awesome' - so I don't think he'll be hard to redeem. I mean, look at what Avengers did for the Bruce Banner character and people came away from his film either not caring about or straight up disliking the character. He had a lot more to make up for than Hawkeye, and Joss did a wonderful job redeeming him.

Destructus86 11-14-2014 02:53 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
So what's Hawkeye do when he runs out of arrows?

RedRose 11-14-2014 04:25 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Well in the first Avengers movie, he started using his bow itself as a weapon, which was pretty cool. After the area was secure, he started pulling arrows out of bodies in order to use them again.

He also used a gun and knife in other parts of the movie, not to mention hand-to-hand combat.

Moridin 11-14-2014 06:11 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Destructus86 (Post 30110885)
So what's Hawkeye do when he runs out of arrows?

Rochambeau.

walltron 11-14-2014 09:01 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
So lets get a discussion going, how do you think whedon will handle his fight scenes with ultron bots. Originally I figured he;d probably rely on rapid fire to keep them at bay but remembering some old set photos and videos, they showed him getting close and physical with some guys in mo cap suits. What kind of arrows do you think he will use on em? I'm guessing some sort of electrical tip arrows so he wont spend a full quiver taking down one bot.

RedRose 11-14-2014 09:30 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Good point about special arrows. And judging from that one poster, it looks like he is shooting some arrows (or even stabbing them in with his hands) into the robots eyes.

He can also use an exploding arrow like he used in the first film.

walltron 11-14-2014 10:06 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RedRose (Post 30113505)
Good point about special arrows. And judging from that one poster, it looks like he is shooting some arrows (or even stabbing them in with his hands) into the robots eyes.

He can also use an exploding arrow like he used in the first film.

yea that set video where it shows his stunt double practicing a fight where he stabs on in the face got me questioning how effect his arrows would have to be...it has to have some sort of ..i dunno electric discharge?

Ghostcrow13 11-15-2014 03:10 AM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
He needs the those arrows he had on EMH, which don't pierce but stick to the person, and then can explode or send an electrical charge.

You have to question how tough the drones are going to be if he can stab them with an arrow. Unless he's putting it through their eyes.

RedRose 11-15-2014 02:07 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
I looked at the poster again, it looks like there were arrows in the robots eyes, through their heads, in their hands...So it does seem like the arrows (who knows what kind of tips) are able to penetrate them. But you know he is totally going to have crazy arrows that can do all kinds of funky things.

Blade X 12-18-2014 02:18 AM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikamaru (Post 30017423)
Either way, Whedon's stated several times he felt bad for the character's treatment in the first film and will make it up in this one by giving him a bigger role. Based on the sneak peek released, he did just that. Just based on the first 10 seconds alone, he is Hawkeye straight off the page.

Giving him a bigger role might help, but it most likely won't be enough. One of the main problems with the movie version of Hawkeye is that he doesn't look like a superhero. He's just another generic looking modern day leather wearing movie action hero. The GA don't see him as a superhero because he doesn't look/dress like a superhero. I'm pretty sure that if they gave the movie version of Hawkeye a mask and costume similar to his MU comics version and highlighted his cocky attitude, then he might win over the hearts and minds of the movie going GA.

walltron 12-18-2014 06:26 AM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade X (Post 30323417)
Giving him a bigger role might help, but it most likely won't be enough. One of the main problems with the movie version of Hawkeye is that he doesn't look like a superhero. He's just another generic looking modern day leather wearing movie action hero. The GA don't see him as a superhero because he doesn't look/dress like a superhero. I'm pretty sure that if they gave the movie version of Hawkeye a mask and costume similar to his MU comics version and highlighted his cocky attitude, then he might win over the hearts and minds of the movie going GA.

dressing him up in tight bright purlple and a goofy mask will help win over the general audience? lol yea no. Only die hard hawk fans think that is the way to go, and thank god that will never happen.

Doing that is infact that last thing he needs unless you want countless more youtube parodies making fun of him. He is a joke to alot of ppl right now. We dont need to give them more reasons to think that. What they need to do to win ppl over is to give him presence. Give him a voice. Give him a say in the goings of the team. Show the other big name characters respecting his opinion and generally caring about him. Cuz if marvel doesnt seem to care about him the audience wont. If the other avengers dont seem to care about him, again the audience wont. The winter soldier is a perfect example. If he was just a random mute the whole movie, ppl wouldnt look twice. It's Steve's relationship and care for him that helps the audience acclimate to him.
So after doing that, then give him more screentime so ppl get accustomed to the character. Give him arcs to show growth and development in AOU and Civil War. Pepper in a little humor with his attitude and then give him bad ass fight scenes. The GA doesnt give a rats about what he is wearing. The main complaints are his lack of personality, his overall randomness since he was never explained, and his use skill wise.

Blade X 12-18-2014 10:44 AM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by walltron (Post 30323849)
dressing him up in tight bright purlple and a goofy mask will help win over the general audience?

1. As if wearing tight dark leather pants has won over the GA.

2. Who said the purple had to be "bright"?

3. Green Arrow wearing a dark green costume and goofy mask in the ARROW TV series has won over the GA TV audience (same goes for Arsenal's dark red costume and mask in the show).

Quote:

lol yea no. Only die hard hawk fans think that is the way to go, and thank god that will never happen.
Seems to me that comic fans like you who justify Hollywood's decision to not embrace and use his his classic costume (or any other superheroes costume) are embarrassed of the source material and the genre in general.

Quote:

Doing that is infact that last thing he needs unless you want countless more youtube parodies making fun of him. He is a joke to alot of ppl right now. We dont need to give them more reasons to think that.
Funny how him NOT looking like and NOT coming off as a superhero didn't stop people from seeing him as a joke. Again, I don't hear the GA TV audience making fun of or thinking of Green Arrow as a joke in the ARROW TV show because he wears a green (dark green) costume with a hood and silly little mask.

Lorus 12-18-2014 02:32 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade X (Post 30324437)
1. As if wearing tight dark leather pants has won over the GA.

2. Who said the purple had to be "bright"?

3. Green Arrow wearing a dark green costume and goofy mask in the ARROW TV series has won over the GA TV audience (same goes for Arsenal's dark red costume and mask in the show).



Seems to me that comic fans like you who justify Hollywood's decision to not embrace and use his his classic costume (or any other superheroes costume) are embarrassed of the source material and the genre in general.



Funny how him NOT looking like and NOT coming off as a superhero didn't stop people from seeing him as a joke. Again, I don't hear the GA TV audience making fun of or thinking of Green Arrow as a joke in the ARROW TV show because he wears a green (dark green) costume with a hood and silly little mask.

I'm not going to weigh in too much on the whole 616 vs Ultimate costume discussion but I don't think your Arrow argument is quite as strong as you think. I don't think Hawkeye's costume is particularly important in terms of earning the 'respect' of the general audience.

Hawkeye is largely mocked because some people will never be able to swallow the notion of an archer being a valued part of the team which also includes the Hulk, Thor and Iron Man (people with sticks up their butts). I'm just speculating here, but I imagine the reason Arrow is more 'respected' is because he is 1, the unquestionable star of a TV show that has over 15 hours per season to devote to making him look good and 2, up until very recently, he has existed in a universe that was scaled down to accommodate him.

If the only place to see Arrow was in a Justice League TV show where he had to share screentime with Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, the Flash, Aquaman and Batman in battles against Darkseid and the like, I imagine he would be mocked relentlessly and often.

walltron 12-18-2014 03:27 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorus (Post 30325767)
I'm not going to weigh in too much on the whole 616 vs Ultimate costume discussion but I don't think your Arrow argument is quite as strong as you think. I don't think Hawkeye's costume is particularly important in terms of earning the 'respect' of the general audience.

Hawkeye is largely mocked because some people will never be able to swallow the notion of an archer being a valued part of the team which also includes the Hulk, Thor and Iron Man (people with sticks up their butts). I'm just speculating here, but I imagine the reason Arrow is more 'respected' is because he is 1, the unquestionable star of a TV show that has over 15 hours per season to devote to making him look good and 2, up until very recently, he has existed in a universe that was scaled down to accommodate him.

If the only place to see Arrow was in a Justice League TV show where he had to share screentime with Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, the Flash, Aquaman and Batman in battles against Darkseid and the like, I imagine he would be mocked relentlessly and often.


basically this. Arrow and amell has his own show dedicated soley to him. 3 seasons of character development and insight. Not to mention no characters flying around throwing cars or crushing metal with their bare hands to be constantly compared with. It's not a fair comparison by any means.

MbJ 12-18-2014 03:27 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade X (Post 30323417)
Giving him a bigger role might help, but it most likely won't be enough. One of the main problems with the movie version of Hawkeye is that he doesn't look like a superhero. He's just another generic looking modern day leather wearing movie action hero. The GA don't see him as a superhero because he doesn't look/dress like a superhero. I'm pretty sure that if they gave the movie version of Hawkeye a mask and costume similar to his MU comics version and highlighted his cocky attitude, then he might win over the hearts and minds of the movie going GA.

No, if they didn't like him then and don't like him now, they'd just be asking why the boring guy now has a stupid purple mask.

Outside of "It looks closer to the comics" i don't see any real evidence as to how giving him a silly costume will win people over.

walltron 12-18-2014 03:36 PM

Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade X (Post 30324437)
1. As if wearing tight dark leather pants has won over the GA.

2. Who said the purple had to be "bright"?

3. Green Arrow wearing a dark green costume and goofy mask in the ARROW TV series has won over the GA TV audience (same goes for Arsenal's dark red costume and mask in the show).



Seems to me that comic fans like you who justify Hollywood's decision to not embrace and use his his classic costume (or any other superheroes costume) are embarrassed of the source material and the genre in general.



Funny how him NOT looking like and NOT coming off as a superhero didn't stop people from seeing him as a joke. Again, I don't hear the GA TV audience making fun of or thinking of Green Arrow as a joke in the ARROW TV show because he wears a green (dark green) costume with a hood and silly little mask.

Movie Clint's problem is not the costume. It's his current lack of depth. Let him and your precious arrow switch places. Hawkeye has his own show in his own little universe wearing the same gear he is now. He would have the same number of fans as the former.

Put arrow in the movies. 1 movie really. He has a total of 13minutes of screentime. No personality and is really just random. His suit wouldnt save him from the same criticisms hawkeye gets now.

Another thing is..it doesnt make sense for movie hawkeye to wear a mask in any type of way. He has no identity to hide. He is a 43 yr old ex shield agent who has never worn one. why randomly slap one on now? He clearly doesnt need any hi tech eyesight help and nobody else on the team wears one. Tony and cap both wear helmets. there are literally no masked heroes in the mcu. and thats cuz there is no need for them. until dd anyway, and he has an identity to hide.


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