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-   -   TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1 (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=399621)

Thread Manager 10-24-2012 03:04 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

lime 10-24-2012 03:04 PM

TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Batman Begins only got nomination for Wally Pfister, but TDK got 8 nominations.

How do you guys think are TDKR chances at the 2013 Oscars?

Do you believe the move can fight for a BP nomination, or just for some tech categories? And if only tech, what?

BatLobsterRises 10-24-2012 03:04 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan (Post 24521931)
The only people who fight him are the good old establishment (cops, etc). The people did nothing in the revolt against Bane, and IMO, I think it made the entire trilogy's point about the PEOPLE taking back their city moot. The people didn't take back the city in their darkest hour: cops did. Not even with the civilian help.

I didn't have a problem with the cops taking back the city. There was still a payoff there. It was full circle, we start with a corrupt police force in BB and TDK, but by the end of TDKR they are defending Gotham alongside the Batman. Cops are people too. Who were the biggest heroes on 9/11? Cops and firefighters who inspired an entire country.

TDK showed that Batman didn't want civilians literally physically fighting when they're not qualified for it. "That wasn't exactly what I had in mind when I said I wanted to inspire people". Now, I wouldn't have had a problem with some tougher civilians entering the battle, but I think from a visual standpoint it helped reinforce the war theme better to have all the police in their uniforms vs. the mercenaries in their wardrobe.

The Joker 10-24-2012 03:35 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_ (Post 24522123)
The Dark Knight Rises doesn't have the mainstream audience support that The Dark Knight did either. People don't talk like TDKR changed the genre (because, quite frankly, it did no such thing) like they did with TDK or The Avengers now. Also, quite frankly, I think the love of TDK makes fans of the trilogy want to rate TDKR a lot higher than it deserves.

Technically speaking it is a spectacular film, but it's just a hokey action movie when you get right down to it.

Ninja's who live in the sewers unbeknownst to the Water and Sewage Department? C'mon, that kind of a plot point would've been laughed out of TDK. I think this actually serves it well as a third film because it avoids the pitfall of trying to replicate what was good about TDK, but as it stands it's a much weaker film.

Also, between Skyfall and Avengers (which I wouldn't nominate either), I think if you nominate TDKR you pretty much have to include those two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan (Post 24521607)
All of this is irrelevant if the script doesn't work, and the 3rd act of TDKR has many problems. Also, I think this film was too interested in making a pro-establishment message, that it made the people of Gotham look bad. All the people of Gotham, despite knowing there was a bomb, bend to Bane's will, enforce his rule, and act as sheep. The only people who fight him are the good old establishment (cops, etc). The people did nothing in the revolt against Bane, and IMO, I think it made the entire trilogy's point about the PEOPLE taking back their city moot. The people didn't take back the city in their darkest hour: cops did. Not even with the civilian help. This isn't even to mention all the story issues with the twist, the public's knowledge of the bomb, why the bad guys were so willing to die, etc. The film just raised too many questions, and this is why it isn't getting the buzz TDK did.

Visually, the film is amazing. Conceptually (aka, the story/plot), it is very weak. This is why I don't feel it warrants a major award.

Couldn't agree more, guys.

Alexei Belyakov 10-24-2012 04:58 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 24522087)
I didn't have a problem with the cops taking back the city. There was still a payoff there. It was full circle, we start with a corrupt police force in BB and TDK, but by the end of TDKR they are defending Gotham alongside the Batman. Cops are people too. Who were the biggest heroes on 9/11? Cops and firefighters who inspired an entire country.

TDK showed that Batman didn't want civilians literally physically fighting when they're not qualified for it. "That wasn't exactly what I had in mind when I said I wanted to inspire people". Now, I wouldn't have had a problem with some tougher civilians entering the battle, but I think from a visual standpoint it helped reinforce the war theme better to have all the police in their uniforms vs. the mercenaries in their wardrobe.

This.

It was never Batman's intention to turn the citizens of Gotham into crimefighters. His quest was to rehabilitate Gotham's police department/structure of justice so evil men could be tried justly for their crimes.

"The People" were never meant to take back the city. Hell, Bane mocked Batman's crusade by telling the people at the stadium "Take control of your city!"

Again, every time I hear complaints about TDKR they sound more like "Well, I woulda done it this way instead" despite having nothing to do with Nolan's intended vision.

Also, how are civilians supposed to stop a terrorist organization filled with armed mercenaries & a nuclear weapon that's keeping the military outside the city?

There's a reason the cops are trapped below the city & the bomb is keeping the Army out.

Talia & Bane wanted to give the citizens of Gotham false hope. They were waiting for freedom much like the prisoners of the Lazarus Pit - and as with them too, freedom was never coming. Only death.

DKDetective 10-24-2012 05:02 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Personally, I'm not even sure I'm all that enthused by the technical/visual spectacle that TDKR represents. Due to runtime limitations, many of the set pieces were surprisingly mediocre due to poor editing.

As well, during later viewings, I came to find the taller aspect ratio of the IMAX scenes actually less grand, epic, and cinematic. It almost had a TV like appearance in regards to how shots were framed. I think Nolan may have actually used the format more effectively in TDK. By reserving it for wide shots and large action spectacles, the format elevated the grandeur of those special moments. It created a larger canvas. In contrast, I find TDKR actually lost some of grandeur and cinematic quality by using IMAX so much in the film. Say what you will, but good old-fashioned anamorphic widescreen composition has certain unique quality to it.

BatLobsterRises 10-24-2012 05:07 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Hmm, I'd have to think about that one. For me, Bruce climbing out of the pit in IMAX was just about the most impactful visual I've seen in a film all year, and seemed like the perfect use of the framing and format. Of course, this being the namesake of the movie and an emotionally cathartic payoff to a 3 movie arc didn't hurt the scene any, but it was definitely a moment where I thought..."This is why I go to the movies".

DACrowe 10-24-2012 06:31 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
TDK should have been nominated for its year. In all honesty it probably should have won, because while I liked Milk and Frost/Nixon, they, nor Slumdog Millionaire, Benjamin Button and certainly The Reader, will not stand the test of time as a mainstream classic like The Dark Knight will.

All that said, TDKR is not as good and the hype has died down for it. There is no populist buzz to push it into a nomination like TDK. Despite there now being ten slots, this is such a strong year that unlike, say, 2009, there is not enough room for a popular mainstream film to get a token nomination. Oh well.

jonathancrane 10-24-2012 06:36 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Ledger gave a performance that was award-worthy; but, his death helped push for his acquisition of an award. I remember watching the ceremony that night, because I had two articles written for the deadline the following morning: one praising the Academy's decision to recognize his performance, the other damning it for failing to do so.

But, The Dark Knight Rises did not have that brand of calamity and hype that The Dark Knight had. Michael Caine deserves an award for his performance as Alfred. He will not acquire it, and I will be very surprised if he receives a nomination. It is wrong, but it is what it is.

BatLobsterRises 10-24-2012 06:39 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
The whole point of expanding the category was to give movies a chance that the public has actually seen, in an effort to reverse the bad ratings trend for the Oscars. So IMO the Academy is only going to make itself look bad if they use up 10 slots to nominate 10 Oscar bait films. But we'll see what happens.

Personally I think it can go either way. Right now I'm leaning 60/40 in favor of no nomination happening.

CConn 10-24-2012 06:39 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Michael doesn't deserve an Oscar for TDKR, and his name isn't Caine either. :o

Alexei Belyakov 10-24-2012 07:08 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DKDetective (Post 24522663)
Personally, I'm not even sure I'm all that enthused by the technical/visual spectacle that TDKR represents. Due to runtime limitations, many of the set pieces were surprisingly mediocre due to poor editing.

As well, during later viewings, I came to find the taller aspect ratio of the IMAX scenes actually less grand, epic, and cinematic. It almost had a TV like appearance in regards to how shots were framed. I think Nolan may have actually used the format more effectively in TDK. By reserving it for wide shots and large action spectacles, the format elevated the grandeur of those special moments. It created a larger canvas. In contrast, I find TDKR actually lost some of grandeur and cinematic quality by using IMAX so much in the film. Say what you will, but good old-fashioned anamorphic widescreen composition has certain unique quality to it.

TDKR had a "TV-like" appearance?

No. Just no.

This one's going on my FB page.

CConn 10-24-2012 07:09 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Well, maybe the only TV he watches is Mad Men and Boardwalk Empire.

danoyse 10-24-2012 08:18 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov (Post 24523359)
TDKR had a "TV-like" appearance?

No. Just no.

This one's going on my FB page.

How many times do we have to tell you to knock off that attitude?

We don't care what you post on your FB page. We don't care if you lean out the window and scream it to random strangers in the street. We don't care if you put it to music and sing it.

We just need you to learn to respect the opinions of others and play nice.

CConn 10-24-2012 08:32 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Honestly, those kind of comments are kind of the norm in these threads. There's about 7 other guys who should be warned if you frown upon that stuff.

Not that I'm complaining. I find it provocative.

danoyse 10-24-2012 08:42 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CConn (Post 24523719)
Honestly, those kind of comments are kind of the norm in these threads. There's about 7 other guys who should be warned if you frown upon that stuff.

Not that I'm complaining. I find it provocative.

Then I'm sure you noticed the warnings in the previous thread as well. This isn't the first.

DKDetective 10-24-2012 08:59 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CConn (Post 24523363)
Well, maybe the only TV he watches is Mad Men and Boardwalk Empire.

Pretty much... and Game of Thrones. In all seriousness, I love IMAX and film and think Wally did a great job lighting TDKR, but, at times in the film, I can honestly say I missed the aspect ratio of traditional 35 mm films. It might have just been Nolan's choice of composition, but I found the final set pieces underwhelming. Batman's first appearance though during the stock market chase was pure brilliance, especially the way the camera pans up Batman's body to show all the cops coming in to surround him.

CConn 10-24-2012 09:22 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by danoyse (Post 24523777)
Then I'm sure you noticed the warnings in the previous thread as well. This isn't the first.

I didn't, actually. Thanks for informing me so pleasantly.

CConn 10-24-2012 09:31 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DKDetective (Post 24523859)
Pretty much... and Game of Thrones. In all seriousness, I love IMAX and film and think Wally did a great job lighting TDKR, but, at times in the film, I can honestly say I missed the aspect ratio of traditional 35 mm films. It might have just been Nolan's choice of composition, but I found the final set pieces underwhelming. Batman's first appearance though during the stock market chase was pure brilliance, especially the way the camera pans up Batman's body to show all the cops coming in to surround him.

I understand that general sentiment.

2.31:1 or whatever it is is always my preferred ratio. But that has nothing to do with digital vs. film.

With IMAX, it's more about the size of it than anything, obviously. A widescreen IMAX movie would be incredible, though.

Spider-Fan 10-24-2012 09:38 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov (Post 24522635)
This.

It was never Batman's intention to turn the citizens of Gotham into crimefighters. His quest was to rehabilitate Gotham's police department/structure of justice so evil men could be tried justly for their crimes.

I never said it was his intention to make them crime fighters, but he was aspiring to inspire the people of Gotham to rise above what the city had become and help fix it. The result was the corruption of this vision by manipulating the people into believing in a false idol only to become savages and be saved once again by the men in uniform. Batman didn't inspire the city, he inspired a small group of the powerful establishment. That, to me, isn't the same thing.

Quote:

"The People" were never meant to take back the city. Hell, Bane mocked Batman's crusade by telling the people at the stadium "Take control of your city!"

Again, every time I hear complaints about TDKR they sound more like "Well, I woulda done it this way instead" despite having nothing to do with Nolan's intended vision.
No, my problem isn't that Nolan didn't do it a certain way. My problems are that the way he chose to do it were messy within the context of both his own film (TDKR) and the franchise (the trilogy). I'm not picking this movie apart because it differed from my vision, I am picking it apart because, as a writer myself, I see way too many holes in the story and logic behind the characters and the story. I don't care if you disagree with me, but writing this off as simple failure of wish fulfilment shows you're not reading what I am saying.

Quote:

Also, how are civilians supposed to stop a terrorist organization filled with armed mercenaries & a nuclear weapon that's keeping the military outside the city?

There's a reason the cops are trapped below the city & the bomb is keeping the Army out.
Farmers with pitchforks and inferior tech defeated the British. People with planning and ingenuity can do great things. Also, so can writers with more creativity.

Quote:

Talia & Bane wanted to give the citizens of Gotham false hope. They were waiting for freedom much like the prisoners of the Lazarus Pit - and as with them too, freedom was never coming. Only death.
The false hope thing I get, but once again, the way it plays out raises a bunch of questions. Why are millions of people so willing to just let their city explode without taking some action? Why are Talia and Bane on some kind of suicide mission to honor a man that didn't even raise Talia for much of her childhood and never accepted them anyway? Etc, etc etc. I am all for suspension of disbelief, but I don't feel what the film gave me was enough. People in desperation don't just lie down when the chips are down. Come life or death, people try to survive. They just don't wait for the bomb to explode. Likewise, I just don't buy Talia and Bane doing all this just to die in the name of a nebulous cause or give Batman the middle finger.

BatLobsterRises 10-24-2012 10:16 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan (Post 24524059)
The false hope thing I get, but once again, the way it plays out raises a bunch of questions. Why are millions of people so willing to just let their city explode without taking some action?

I hear what you're saying in essence, but at the same time the millions in Gotham were not privy to the fact that the bomb was going to blow no matter what. In their eyes, making a move on Bane is only going to bring about their own demise because of the anonymous triggerman. The fact that the nuke can be detonated at any moment yet hasn't been, makes it seem like Bane and his revolutionaries are 100% committed to their "cause" and not Gotham's destruction. So they're not waiting to die, they're hoping to live. They're caught between a rock and a hard place, but they were under the impression that living complacently under Bane's rule is what will keep them alive. If it had gotten out that the bomb was going off no matter what, it'd be a different story.

Also, we only saw a very small fraction of those 5 months so there's no saying for sure either whether or not there were any ragtag rebellions that Bane had squashed. This would have been neat to see, but it would have done nothing to advance any important character arcs and only served to add fat to the film, so I can see why they'd not go there. We know that anonymous Gothamites 1, 2 3 and "No more dead cops!" guy aren't going to be the heroes that defeat the bad guy in a Batman movie, and we've established that Bane and the LOS are an unstoppable wrecking ball of blunt militant force. We don't really learn much by seeing a few brave Gothamites become cannon fodder for them.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan (Post 24524059)
Batman didn't inspire the city, he inspired a small group of the powerful establishment. That, to me, isn't the same thing.

I still think he inspired the city at large. He basically becomes Gotham's J.C. by the film's end, getting memorialized for generations to remember. And in the end, Blake serves to represent the idea of good people stepping up. By the end of the film he's off the police force and no longer a part of the establishment, but he's in a position to take the torch. Also, Batman inspires Selina to listen to her better, unselfish side. So he definitely inspired more than just the establishment.

Spider-Fan 10-24-2012 10:23 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 24524211)
I hear what you're saying in essence, but at the same time the millions in Gotham were not privy to the fact that the bomb was going to blow no matter what. In their eyes, making a move on Bane is only going to bring about their own demise because of the anonymous triggerman. The fact that Bane can blow the nuke at any moment and instead lets Gotham live makes it seem like he's 100% committed to the revolution and not Gotham's destruction. So they're not waiting to die, they're hoping to live. They're caught between a rock and a hard place, but they were under the impression that living complacently under Bane's rule is what will keep them alive. If it had gotten out that the bomb was going off no matter what, it'd be a different story.

Also, we only saw a very small fraction of those 5 months so there's no saying for sure either whether or not there were any ragtag rebellions that Bane had squashed. This would have been neat to see, but it would have done nothing to advance any important character arcs and only served to add fat to the film, so I can see why they'd not go there. We know that anonymous Gothamites 1, 2 3 and "No more dead cops!" guy aren't going to be the heroes that defeat the bad guy in a Batman movie, and we've established that Bane and the LOS are an unstoppable wrecking ball of blunt militant force. We don't really learn much by seeing a few brave Gothamites become cannon fodder for them.

The police clearly say in the movie that they know it is happening, and the grapevine was passing that information around. So, enough people would have known to start a mass panic. Or, at the very least, would have been spreading word like that around like crazy. In a situation in which escape is not possible, people do whatever they must to survive. Crowds of people can take down a king, his army, etc. It has happened all throughout history. For this reason, I absolutely cannot buy how this worked out. I can suspend disbelief that such a bomb exists and all that stuff, but suspension of disbelief doesn't mean I have to instantly buy into everything about the film without a proper explanation, and this film just doesn't do that in regard to the citizens of Gotham. It just ignores how they'd react, and in a film that focuses very heavily on the takeover of a city and anarchy in the streets, that doesn't work.

BatLobsterRises 10-24-2012 10:30 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan (Post 24524275)
The police clearly say in the movie that they know it is happening, and the grapevine was passing that information around. So, enough people would have known to start a mass panic. Or, at the very least, would have been spreading word like that around like crazy. In a situation in which escape is not possible, people do whatever they must to survive. Crowds of people can take down a king, his army, etc. It has happened all throughout history. For this reason, I absolutely cannot buy how this worked out. I can suspend disbelief that such a bomb exists and all that stuff, but suspension of disbelief doesn't mean I have to instantly buy into everything about the film without a proper explanation, and this film just doesn't do that in regard to the citizens of Gotham. It just ignores how they'd react, and in a film that focuses very heavily on the takeover of a city and anarchy in the streets, that doesn't work.

I honestly don't remember that being said or even implied in the movie. If anything, the way I understood it, the small group in Gordon's operation would be keeping a lid on that to not cause a mass panic. Gordon was being very secretive when the special agents were there, didn't even want to say how many he had in his group. He needed Blake to go all "hot head" mode to give them the real situation with the bomb.

If I'm wrong on that though please refresh my memory because I haven't seen the movie in months.

Alexei Belyakov 10-24-2012 11:46 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan (Post 24524059)
Why are Talia and Bane on some kind of suicide mission to honor a man that didn't even raise Talia for much of her childhood and never accepted them anyway? Etc, etc etc. I am all for suspension of disbelief, but I don't feel what the film gave me was enough. People in desperation don't just lie down when the chips are down. Come life or death, people try to survive. They just don't wait for the bomb to explode. Likewise, I just don't buy Talia and Bane doing all this just to die in the name of a nebulous cause or give Batman the middle finger.

Talia & Bane represent Al-Qaeda. Terrorists who follow a code the rest of the world, specially us Americans will never understand.

The scene that further accentuates that notion is when Talia stabs Bruce. He's so shocked & despite connecting the dots still bothers to inquire as to why she would serve the memory of Ra's Al Ghul - a man who died trying to kill millions of innocent people.

Al-Qaeda can't ne negotiated with nor should we try to understand their "cause". Its not geopolitical nonsense. Its insanity.

Bruce's confusion, the look of horror in his face after she puts the knife in him, represents our own confusion regarding the Jihad agenda.

Spider-Fan 10-24-2012 11:52 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov (Post 24524629)
Talia & Bane represent Al-Qaeda. Terrorists who follow a code the rest of the world, specially us Americans will never understand.

The scene that further accentuates that notion is when Talia stabs Bruce. He's so shocked & despite connecting the dots still bothers to inquire as to why she would serve the memory of Ra's Al Ghul - a man who died trying to kill millions of innocent people.

Al-Qaeda can't ne negotiated with nor should we try to understand their "cause". Its not geopolitical nonsense. Its insanity.

Bruce's confusion, the look of horror in his face after she puts the knife in him, represents our own confusion regarding the Jihad agenda.

Al Qaeada still operate under an idealogy of religion and other factors that are tangible and can be researched and explained. They don't blow themselves up for no reason. The League of Shadows in this film want to do the suicide mission for...science?

There is a big difference, and the film's attempts at motivation are sketchy at best. This film wasn't doing anything deep by leaving their motivation largely unexplained. That is just poor scripting.

Robin91939 10-25-2012 12:03 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan (Post 24524653)
Al Qaeada still operate under an idealogy of religion and other factors that are tangible and can be researched and explained. They don't blow themselves up for no reason. The League of Shadows in this film want to do the suicide mission for...science?

There is a big difference, and the film's attempts at motivation are sketchy at best. This film wasn't doing anything deep by leaving their motivation largely unexplained. That is just poor scripting.

Wait. You're saying that the League of Shadows didn't have a motivation in this film/trilogy?

Yes. They weren't religious fanatics. But they do have solid motivation that is established in Batman Begins.

They see themselves as the stewards of society. They serve as the check that balances it.

"The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years." -Ra's al Ghul

The League of Shadows' motivation was to seek out and destroy corruption in its various forms. They view the contemporary and accepted justice/legal system to be fundamentally flawed and broken and feel that it is their job to fix it. And to them, fixing it means destroying and bringing down those systems entirely.

When Ra's died, Talia and Bane took up this belief. Talia seems to have modified it a bit. She seems to be more of an ecological terrorist than her father (which he is in the comics) and that she wants to destroy Gotham because of the affect Gotham has on the world.

Bane seems to be more in line with Ra's al Ghul's beliefs than he is the environment like Talia is.

But I'd say their motivations we anything but non-existant or poorly executed.

-R

Alexei Belyakov 10-25-2012 12:15 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan (Post 24524653)
Al Qaeada still operate under an idealogy of religion and other factors that are tangible and can be researched and explained. They don't blow themselves up for no reason. The League of Shadows in this film want to do the suicide mission for...science?

There is a big difference, and the film's attempts at motivation are sketchy at best. This film wasn't doing anything deep by leaving their motivation largely unexplained. That is just poor scripting.

Sorry, dude, but to me Al-Qaeda's ideology/mission statement is bullcrap. Geopolitical bullcrap. No research will ever make their actions justifiable.

The LOS under Talia & Bane was (like Al-Qaeda) attacking America for being America: Corrupt, excessive, bloated, petty, ignorant, arrogant & above all - completely unaccountable for anything.

Nolan did a great job fleshing out the parallels between this new LOS faction & Al-Qaeda. The whole "hang them where the world can see" bit pretty much confirms it. That and the fact that Bane was picked up by the CIA in Kazakhstan & The Lazarus Pit was in Syria.

BatLobsterRises 10-25-2012 12:18 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin91939 (Post 24524717)
The League of Shadows' motivation was to seek out and destroy corruption in its various forms. They view the contemporary and accepted justice/legal system to be fundamentally flawed and broken and feel that it is their job to fix it. And to them, fixing it means destroying and bringing down those systems entirely.

This.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov (Post 24524757)
Sorry, dude, but to me Al-Qaeda's ideology/mission statement is bullcrap. Geopolitical bullcrap. No research will ever make their actions justifiable.

The LOS under Talia & Bane was (like Al-Qaeda) attacking America for being America: Corrupt, excessive, bloated, petty, ignorant, arrogant & above all - completely unaccountable for anything.

Nolan did a great job fleshing out the parallels between this new LOS faction & Al-Qaeda. The whole "hang them where the world can see" bit pretty much confirms it. That and the fact that Bane was picked up by the CIA in Kazakhstan & The Lazarus Pit was in Syria.

And this.

Also...honestly, the way Bane talked about fulfilling Ra's al Ghul's destiny had this quasi-religious resonance to it, as if Ra's was some kind of higher being that they all believed in and that his destiny had to be fulfilled. Especially when you consider that Ra's al Ghul is Arabic for The Demon's Head. Alfred mentions Bane having the "power of belief". I think the idea is there. The opening scene of the movie shows us that these people are willing to die for their cause at a moment's notice and have a deep conviction about what they're doing.

I think having the League of Shadows in these films is a good way to incorporate the idea of radical extremists and terrorism, fears relevant to our times, without getting too topical and specific about it that it stops being "Batman". And they stayed true to the general purpose behind the League of Assassins in the comics.

Alexei Belyakov 10-25-2012 12:28 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 24524779)
This.



And this.

Also...honestly, the way Bane talked about fulfilling Ra's al Ghul's destiny had this quasi-religious resonance to it, as if Ra's was some kind of higher being that they all believed in and that his destiny had to be fulfilled. Especially when you consider that Ra's al Ghul is Arabic for The Demon's Head. Alfred mentions Bane having the "power of belief". I think the idea is there. The opening scene of the movie shows us that these people are willing to die for their cause at a moment's notice and have a deep conviction about what they're doing.

I think having the League of Shadows in these films is a good way to incorporate the idea of radical extremists and terrorism, fears relevant to our times, without getting too topical and specific about it that it stops being "Batman". And they stayed true to the general purpose behind the League of Assassins in the comics.

Agreed on all points.

Frankly, I didn't know Nolan was going to get as geopolitical as he did with TDKR. I went in expecting the real world, just not THE real world.

My only clue was the document released prior to the film that explained The Dent Act. Immediately I knew The Patriot Act's disguised presence in the film would somehow allude to modern terrorism.

BatLobsterRises 10-25-2012 12:38 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
The important thing to consider is that TDKR is not meant to be a film that depicts ideas like terrorism, class uprising, police surveillance, nuclear energy etc. in any sort of realistic way, and it's not a film that is meant to educate on those issues. It's crafting a larger than life canvas for our concerns, interests, fears and hopes to play out in a way that enthralls us. I think that's been a huge aspect of all three movies and why they were so successful.

Dark Knight 10-25-2012 01:57 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan (Post 24524653)
Al Qaeada still operate under an idealogy of religion and other factors that are tangible and can be researched and explained. They don't blow themselves up for no reason. The League of Shadows in this film want to do the suicide mission for...science?

There is a big difference, and the film's attempts at motivation are sketchy at best. This film wasn't doing anything deep by leaving their motivation largely unexplained. That is just poor scripting.





If you say so pal. :whatever:

Dark Knight 10-25-2012 02:11 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 24522087)
I didn't have a problem with the cops taking back the city. There was still a payoff there. It was full circle, we start with a corrupt police force in BB and TDK, but by the end of TDKR they are defending Gotham alongside the Batman. Cops are people too. Who were the biggest heroes on 9/11? Cops and firefighters who inspired an entire country.

TDK showed that Batman didn't want civilians literally physically fighting when they're not qualified for it. "That wasn't exactly what I had in mind when I said I wanted to inspire people". Now, I wouldn't have had a problem with some tougher civilians entering the battle, but I think from a visual standpoint it helped reinforce the war theme better to have all the police in their uniforms vs. the mercenaries in their wardrobe.


My Nolan film rankings:

The Dark Knight
Inception
The Dark Knight Rises
Memento
The Prestige
Batman Begins
Following
Insomnia

I think pretty much everyone's lists would differ tremendously, with the only universal being no one would have Insomnia at the top. And I like that movie quite a bit too.



^^^^
This is my ranking of Nolan films as well.

Dark Knight 10-25-2012 02:14 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 24524855)
The important thing to consider is that TDKR is not meant to be a film that depicts ideas like terrorism, class uprising, police surveillance, nuclear energy etc. in any sort of realistic way, and it's not a film that is meant to educate on those issues. It's crafting a larger than life canvas for our concerns, interests, fears and hopes to play out in a way that enthralls us. I think that's been a huge aspect of all three movies and why they were so successful.




:applaud

As with each and every debate, nitpick, analysis, and over analysis of TDKR and with each Nolan film.....Nolans legend continues to grows. :word:

Dark Knight 10-25-2012 02:17 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov (Post 24524819)
Agreed on all points.

Frankly, I didn't know Nolan was going to get as geopolitical as he did with TDKR. I went in expecting the real world, just not THE real world.

My only clue was the document released prior to the film that explained The Dent Act. Immediately I knew The Patriot Act's disguised presence in the film would somehow allude to modern terrorism.




Exactly.

Alexi, I agree with a lot of your posts. I think Nolan deserves a Best Director nod and the TDKR deserves a Best Picture nod.

I'm just not expecting it, because we know the Academy's weird history when it comes to Nolan and snubbing him for TDK and snubbing him for a Best Director nod with Inception.

They have a bias towards him that is evident.

Alexei Belyakov 10-25-2012 02:42 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Knight (Post 24525141)
Exactly.

Alexi, I agree with a lot of your posts. I think Nolan deserves a Best Director nod and the TDKR deserves a Best Picture nod.

I'm just not expecting it, because we know the Academy's weird history when it comes to Nolan and snubbing him for TDK and snubbing him for a Best Director nod with Inception.

They have a bias towards him that is evident.

At least he got Nominated for Original Screenplay & INCEPTION got the Best Picture Nomination.

I think this year he could easily get the Best Director Nomination and share the ballot with Paul Thomas Anderson, Ang Lee, Tom Hooper & Ben Affleck.

jmc 10-25-2012 04:22 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin91939 (Post 24524717)
Wait. You're saying that the League of Shadows didn't have a motivation in this film/trilogy?

Yes. They weren't religious fanatics. But they do have solid motivation that is established in Batman Begins.

They see themselves as the stewards of society. They serve as the check that balances it.

"The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years." -Ra's al Ghul

The League of Shadows' motivation was to seek out and destroy corruption in its various forms. They view the contemporary and accepted justice/legal system to be fundamentally flawed and broken and feel that it is their job to fix it. And to them, fixing it means destroying and bringing down those systems entirely.

When Ra's died, Talia and Bane took up this belief. Talia seems to have modified it a bit. She seems to be more of an ecological terrorist than her father (which he is in the comics) and that she wants to destroy Gotham because of the affect Gotham has on the world.

Bane seems to be more in line with Ra's al Ghul's beliefs than he is the environment like Talia is.

But I'd say their motivations we anything but non-existant or poorly executed.

-R

As has been pointed out a billion times Gotham was at peace time. For the best part of 8 years. They very goal they were striving for actually happened - without them having to destroy the city. And yet they decided to do it anyway for....... what exactly? The motivations were poor and in most cases a direct contradiction to what happened previously, and as Spider-fan rightfully points out, badly executed.

jmc 10-25-2012 04:25 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov (Post 24525225)
At least he got Nominated for Original Screenplay & INCEPTION got the Best Picture Nomination.

I think this year he could easily get the Best Director Nomination and share the ballot with Paul Thomas Anderson, Ang Lee, Tom Hooper & Ben Affleck.

That ain't happening. Nolan's time will come but it will not be for Rises. Bet every dollar you have on it.

Alexei Belyakov 10-25-2012 04:34 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jmc (Post 24525429)
As has been pointed out a billion times Gotham was at peace time. For the best part of 8 years. They very goal they were striving for actually happened - without them having to destroy the city. And yet they decided to do it anyway for....... what exactly? The motivations were poor and in most cases a direct contradiction to what happened previously, and as Spider-fan rightfully points out, badly executed.

The LOS from BB is not the same LOS from TDKR.

The LOS in TDKR is Al-Qaeda. Again, its impossible to understand people who strap bombs to their chests and blow themselves up along with innocent people.

That's what Bane & Talia were trying to do. To say their motivations were poor & badly written is to say Bin Laden's motivations to destroy The World Trade Center were poor & ill conceived.

These people cannot be understood. They are insane.

Remember, Bane was excommunicated by Ra's Al Ghul. A terrorist too extreme for Ra's says it all.

jmc 10-25-2012 04:42 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov (Post 24525455)
The LOS from BB is not the same LOS from TDKR.

The LOS in TDKR is Al-Qaeda. Again, its impossible to understand people who strap bombs to their chests and blow themselves up along with innocent people.

That's what Bane & Talia were trying to do. To say their motivations were poor & badly written is to say Bin Laden's motivations to destroy The World Trade Center were poor & ill conceived.

These people cannot be understood. They are insane.

In which case it is pointless bringing the LoS back in the first place if the ideology is so vastly different.

Alexei Belyakov 10-25-2012 04:54 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jmc (Post 24525467)
In which case it is pointless bringing the LoS back in the first place if the ideology is so vastly different.

No, the idea was to show the legacy of Ra's ended up being Bruce & not Bane.

Bane arrives in Gotham claiming he IS the League of Shadows. Alfred is concerned that might be true. But after Talia reveals herself we learn that Ra's heir wasn't Bane after all. Talia & Bane are terrorists. Their motivations like the Jihad are deluded. Its not about restoring peace through destruction. Its about making Ra's chosen son watch his people burn, helpless. Again, this is an insane agenda. To kill millions in the name of revenge & jealousy.

The LOS in TDKR isn't really the LOS. Its the bastard child of Ra's ideals (much like Bane).

jmc 10-25-2012 07:49 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov (Post 24525481)
No, the idea was to show the legacy of Ra's ended up being Bruce & not Bane.

Bane arrives in Gotham claiming he IS the League of Shadows. Alfred is concerned that might be true. But after Talia reveals herself we learn that Ra's heir wasn't Bane after all. Talia & Bane are terrorists. Their motivations like the Jihad are deluded. Its not about restoring peace through destruction. Its about making Ra's chosen son watch his people burn, helpless. Again, this is an insane agenda. To kill millions in the name of revenge & jealousy.

The LOS in TDKR isn't really the LOS. Its the bastard child of Ra's ideals (much like Bane).

Again, that means it's pointless to be bringing them and Ra's back into the fold in the first place. A better and more unique character arc for Bane could have been used and a much better film could have eventuated if none of that was brought back into the fold. If the LoS ideology is bastardized it needed to be explored - it wasn't. It comes across as a bunch of idiots who don't know their own organization and what it stands for. Not to mention it's full of illogical character motivations - completely her fathers work - the same father that A) She would never have been close to in the first place and B) One who rejected Bane. This film is hampered by poor execution, most of which I put down to them bring back plot elements from the previous film that didn't need to be brought up again. But we got our precious Talia now didn't we? Oh yeah, it was really worth crow-baring her into this series wasn't it? Everyone 's happy now, we've all wanted that character for so long and we finally got her. Hip-hip ****ing hooray.

Spider-Fan 10-25-2012 09:45 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin91939 (Post 24524717)
Wait. You're saying that the League of Shadows didn't have a motivation in this film/trilogy?

Yes. They weren't religious fanatics. But they do have solid motivation that is established in Batman Begins.

They see themselves as the stewards of society. They serve as the check that balances it.

"The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years." -Ra's al Ghul

The League of Shadows' motivation was to seek out and destroy corruption in its various forms. They view the contemporary and accepted justice/legal system to be fundamentally flawed and broken and feel that it is their job to fix it. And to them, fixing it means destroying and bringing down those systems entirely.

When Ra's died, Talia and Bane took up this belief. Talia seems to have modified it a bit. She seems to be more of an ecological terrorist than her father (which he is in the comics) and that she wants to destroy Gotham because of the affect Gotham has on the world.

Bane seems to be more in line with Ra's al Ghul's beliefs than he is the environment like Talia is.

But I'd say their motivations we anything but non-existant or poorly executed.

-R

No, my comment was directed to the fact that Alexei said the mystery and lack of understanding of their idealogy was to mirror Al Qeaada. Not that they didn't have an idealogy. They did, however, I feel Talia and co do not give a good reason why they pursued "Ra's al Ghul's destiny" in a suicide mission. I just can't buy it based on what she/he said in the movie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov (Post 24524757)
Sorry, dude, but to me Al-Qaeda's ideology/mission statement is bullcrap. Geopolitical bullcrap. No research will ever make their actions justifiable.

Just because you don't buy into their idealogy doesn't make it mysterious or unexplainable. It can clearly be explained, as they have explained it. Not saying we have to agree with it. Just saying the have given their justification for what they do, so they mysterious motives is bullcrap.

Quote:

The LOS under Talia & Bane was (like Al-Qaeda) attacking America for being America: Corrupt, excessive, bloated, petty, ignorant, arrogant & above all - completely unaccountable for anything.

Nolan did a great job fleshing out the parallels between this new LOS faction & Al-Qaeda. The whole "hang them where the world can see" bit pretty much confirms it. That and the fact that Bane was picked up by the CIA in Kazakhstan & The Lazarus Pit was in Syria.
And these are not mysterious motivations like you were trying to argue. Batman is not showing some kind of shcok as to why Talia and co are doing what they do due to some kind of culture shock, like you previously said. He was just shocked someone he trusted stabbed him in the back, literally. You're reading things into the scene that are not there in order to give the character more depth than they had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Knight (Post 24525089)
If you say so pal. :whatever:

I am allowed to have/state my opinion. If you don't like it, ignore me.

BatLobsterRises 10-25-2012 10:52 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jmc (Post 24525429)
As has been pointed out a billion times Gotham was at peace time. For the best part of 8 years. They very goal they were striving for actually happened - without them having to destroy the city. And yet they decided to do it anyway for....... what exactly? The motivations were poor and in most cases a direct contradiction to what happened previously, and as Spider-fan rightfully points out, badly executed.

And as pointed out a billion times by the other side of the argument, the LOS was about "restoring balance" when civilizations became too decadent. And had attacked Gotham economically 20 years prior to the events of Batman Begins. Nowhere in Batman Begins did I ever get the impression that the League would simply back down if Gotham got "saved" another way. No, they wanted to raze it to the ground and send the rest of the world a message.

Look, it's fine if you or anyone don't like this motivation or you didn't want the LOS to return. I just don't agree with this notion that it's impossible to understand and makes no sense. It makes plenty of sense if you think about what the LOS truly stands for. What makes no sense is expecting a radical terrorist organization to back down when the western world is able to suppress their problems in their own way. Terrorists are not that cuddly and reasonable. Locking up criminals does not eliminate the greed so deeply rooted in that society that leads to their existence (hence the film focusing more on white collar side villains and class tension). They had Gotham selected because it was "the world's greatest city". It's a very global ideal they have. Just because Gotham locked up its mobsters doesn't mean the world was any more balanced. The LOS, both in the films and in the comics essentially want to reboot society. Everything they did in TDKR reflected this ideal. It's never monologued away in the film, but it's very much present.

I like the way Alexei said it though, they're attacking America for being America.

The Joker 10-25-2012 11:33 AM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jmc (Post 24525467)
In which case it is pointless bringing the LoS back in the first place if the ideology is so vastly different.

Exactly :up:

Optimus_Prime_ 10-25-2012 12:03 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
The plot overall was just flimsy in how it strung together all it's elements.

I think I'd compare a lot of the movie to the BB Mr. Earle subplot. If you think about Mr. Earle, other than providing some Bruce Wayne tension, his character makes no sense. Why is he bad? Because he makes weapons? So do Lucius and Wayne apparently. Because he wants to make money and wants to protect his job when Bruce returns? Why is that bad? Bruce is the one doing all the insider trading anyways. It's also not established that he warrants any of the blame for the weapon being stolen.

In TDKR you have about five or six plotlines just that pointless.

Talia for example. Had this been a three movie character, she might have worked. Instead she was just in there to force a twist a la Batman Begins. Which made no sense. By movie three you'd already established the League of Shadows, and that Ra's Al Ghul could potentially have children. The twist was unnecessary, and quite frankly smacked of being completely baffling -- even with my foreknowledge of the character, I struggled to figure out why Bane simply wasn't the man in charge.

He was the "extreme" one anyways.

Talia was "carrying on her father's legacy". Bullsh**. She was carrying on Bane's legacy, which muddles Bane being just a lackey, as opposed to an equal partner.

Had they removed the twist, they may have been able to flesh that out a little more prior to the climax.

Instead it crammed into the last five meaningful minutes, and comes off as confused.

I think actually what is my least favorite aspect of the movie in hindsight is how much I remember of Blake, Catwoman, Bane, Talia and Bruce, and how very little I remember of actual Batman (who gets about 15 minutes of screentime). That just speaks to the volume of irrelevant characters and plotlines they crammed in this thing.

BatLobsterRises 10-25-2012 12:18 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_ (Post 24526613)
The plot overall was just flimsy in how it strung together all it's elements.

I think I'd compare a lot of the movie to the BB Mr. Earle subplot. If you think about Mr. Earle, other than providing some Bruce Wayne tension, his character makes no sense. Why is he bad? Because he makes weapons? So do Lucius and Wayne apparently. Because he wants to make money and wants to protect his job when Bruce returns? Why is that bad? Bruce is the one doing all the insider trading anyways. It's also not established that he warrants any of the blame for the weapon being stolen.

Earle is just a slimy businessman who wants to profit off of Thomas Wayne's name while turning the company he built into something he'd never stand for. Sufficiently unsavory, no? His character worked because he was an obstacle for both Bruce and Lucius.

I mean who didn't love that "Didn't you get the memo?" callback?

CConn 10-25-2012 12:20 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
I'm glad Marv showed Mr. Earl who was boss.

Caboose 10-25-2012 12:40 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_ (Post 24526613)
Talia for example. Had this been a three movie character, she might have worked. Instead she was just in there to force a twist a la Batman Begins. Which made no sense. By movie three you'd already established the League of Shadows, and that Ra's Al Ghul could potentially have children. The twist was unnecessary, and quite frankly smacked of being completely baffling -- even with my foreknowledge of the character, I struggled to figure out why Bane simply wasn't the man in charge.

He was the "extreme" one anyways.

Talia was "carrying on her father's legacy". Bullsh**. She was carrying on Bane's legacy, which muddles Bane being just a lackey, as opposed to an equal partner.

Had they removed the twist, they may have been able to flesh that out a little more prior to the climax.

Instead it crammed into the last five meaningful minutes, and comes off as confused.

I agree with this.

CConn 10-25-2012 12:46 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1
 
I will say this;

I view movies a little differently than most. Most of the time, I really don't give a **** about plotholes or illogicalities in the overall plot or story. Movies are, to me, firstly emotional experiences, and secondly philosophical experiences; if it ultimately resonates emotionally and philosophically for me, it really doesn't matter if there were some bumps in the road getting there.

But, generally, if I have a complaint about a movie I believe to be really good, I can usually narrow it down to a singular overarching aspect that diminishes its quality, and I think I've finally narrowed that down for TDKR...

It really should've been three separate movies. There was much that was happening and going on in it, that it truly needed about 6-8 hours of screen time to totally effectively tell the story it wanted to tell.

Watching TDKR, it plays out like LOTR movies would have if someone attempted to cram them all into a single 3 hour film; or when you see a film adaptation of a great book where corners have to be cut to fit such a massive tale into a single film.

I still like the movie as much as I ever did, of course, but without a doubt in my mind, had they separated the three acts into their own separate films, you would've ended up with an even better final product.

Alexei Belyakov 10-25-2012 12:52 PM

Re: TDKR Oscar Chances?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jmc (Post 24525717)
A better and more unique character arc for Bane could have been used and a much better film could have eventuated if none of that was brought back into the fold.

And we're back to people disliking TDKR for not fitting their own vision instead of Nolan's.


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