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-   -   Coleman Reese vs. John Blake (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=461159)

ThatGuy1988 07-06-2013 10:37 PM

Coleman Reese vs. John Blake
 
I find it hilarious that in The Dark Knight, Coleman Reese found out who Batman was by going through the Wayne Enterprises records and by noticing that the Tumbler is the same vehicle from the Applied Sciences Division (basically, he did work). And then, in The Dark Knight Rises, John Blake just shows up and automatically knows that Bruce is Batman by simply looking at him.

Anyone else feel the same?

The Joker 07-06-2013 11:13 PM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
I feel Reese's discovery was plausible and well handled.

Blake's was ridiculous and unbelievable.

shauner111 07-06-2013 11:54 PM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
How was it unbelievable? He had a feeling, there was a relatability there. "Right then I knew who you really were" meaning he knew he was pulling off a fake, not that he was Batman. Obviously he grows up and has his suspicions especially being a cop and adding things up with the Dent death. He puts it all together and makes a gamble when he enters Wayne Manor to confront him.

Like Jonah Nolan says it's like the kid from Prestige who sees past Bale's magic trick.

I think you guys stretch Blake's lines as if he knew he was Batman right away. I don't think that's the case at all. I think he was able to see right through his fa├žade as a teen. Then he puts all the pieces of the puzzle together as the years roll on.

You have cops who don't give a damn about it, all they care about is selling drugs, being dirty, looking the other way. You have Gordon who doesn't really want to know. He doesn't care. He just honors the Batman and wants to do good. Then you have Blake who is actually enthusiastic about finding out truths and questioning authority.

Shikamaru 07-06-2013 11:58 PM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker (Post 26294759)
I feel Reese's discovery was plausible and well handled.

Blake's was ridiculous and unbelievable.

Pretty much this.

TanneRain 07-07-2013 12:03 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
I'm not a big fan of Blake's dialogue because of aforementioned reasons. It could have been worded much better. It's not a deal breaker for me, but the Reese thing made much more sense. It also was the build up for some awesome Lucius banter, another devilish Joker plan, the Bruce Wayne-Jim Gordon car cash quips, and a bunch of other stuff.

What did we really get from John Blake knowing that Wayne was Batman? Nothing that really resonates with me, but others could feel differently.

The Joker 07-07-2013 12:23 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shauner111 (Post 26294911)
How was it unbelievable?

In that it wasn't believable to deduce Bruce Wayne was Batman based on a look.

Quote:

He had a feeling, there was a relatability there.
Reaching even further. People all over the world hide emotional pain with a fake smile. It's publicly known Bruce's parents were murdered in front of him as a kid.

It doesn't mean he's Batman because he's masking that pain.

Quote:

Obviously he grows up and has his suspicions especially being a cop and adding things up with the Dent death.
Bruce Wayne had nothing to do with Dent's death.

Quote:

He puts it all together and makes a gamble when he enters Wayne Manor to confront him.
Which was total BS. The reasons we're given is Blake recognized a look on his face that he used himself to hide his anger and pain. How the hell did that make him think this guy has to be Batman based on that? Finding Tumbler blueprints and recognizing it as Batman's vehicle, that's plausible. Claiming a look that you're hiding your emotional pain means you're Batman, that's BS. Even for a comic book movie.

Quote:

Like Jonah Nolan says it's like the kid from Prestige who sees past Bale's magic trick.
That's different. That's a magic trick. People see through magicians tricks all the time.

storyteller 07-07-2013 01:31 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Actually look at the scene. So Blake has a strong feeling that Bruce was Batman. When he confronts Bruce about it, guess what Bruce barely denies it and ultimately confirms it. Bruce never states he isn't Batman. He simply dances around the subject. It's Bruce Wayne's lack of denial here that confirms Blakes accusation.

Now come up with that accusation. Bruce Wayne has the motivation, means, and time. His dead parents. His history of acting out in school. He disappears for years and when he come back Batman appears. Oh and of course he's rich and in charge of a company that has had various military projects.

Monicabbm 07-07-2013 04:50 PM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Coleman Reese >>>> John Blake

Victarion 07-07-2013 11:57 PM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Reese's discovery of Batman's identity was better done than Blake's, as we got to see how it happened. Blake had his police training to help quantify his initial hunch, but we never saw that happen over the course of the film. 'Course, there wasn't time for us to see Blake's deduction coming together as there was for Reese's.

Also...remember Mr. Reese = Mystery = Riddler? Toward the end of TDKR, Blake's wearing either a green jacket or green shirt. Can't remember which; imagine if that were one of our first images of JGL's character. :hehe:

Just_Human 07-08-2013 04:13 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by storyteller (Post 26295211)
Actually look at the scene. So Blake has a strong feeling that Bruce was Batman. When he confronts Bruce about it, guess what Bruce barely denies it and ultimately confirms it. Bruce never states he isn't Batman. He simply dances around the subject. It's Bruce Wayne's lack of denial here that confirms Blakes accusation.

Now come up with that accusation. Bruce Wayne has the motivation, means, and time. His dead parents. His history of acting out in school. He disappears for years and when he come back Batman appears. Oh and of course he's rich and in charge of a company that has had various military projects.

and in the comics, Robin always tursted his gut feelings

shauner111 07-08-2013 08:57 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by storyteller (Post 26295211)
Actually look at the scene. So Blake has a strong feeling that Bruce was Batman. When he confronts Bruce about it, guess what Bruce barely denies it and ultimately confirms it. Bruce never states he isn't Batman. He simply dances around the subject. It's Bruce Wayne's lack of denial here that confirms Blakes accusation.

Now come up with that accusation. Bruce Wayne has the motivation, means, and time. His dead parents. His history of acting out in school. He disappears for years and when he come back Batman appears. Oh and of course he's rich and in charge of a company that has had various military projects.

Exactly. He has years to look into it. Joker and everyone else around here thinks he just knew he was Batman from a look, they obviously didn't watch that scene properly because that's not what happened. He saw from a look who he really was, NOT the billionaire dumb playboy but a man who is hiding something.

The Joker 07-08-2013 10:14 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by storyteller (Post 26295211)
Actually look at the scene. So Blake has a strong feeling that Bruce was Batman.

No, he flat out knows he's Batman. He gets through the door by threatening to get a warrant for the investigation of Harvey Dent's murder.

Quote:

When he confronts Bruce about it, guess what Bruce barely denies it and ultimately confirms it. Bruce never states he isn't Batman. He simply dances around the subject. It's Bruce Wayne's lack of denial here that confirms Blakes accusation.
Bruce not denying it doesn't mean he's confirming a suspicion. Blake is monologuing the whole scene explaining why he knows Bruce is Batman. He didn't need to Bruce to confirm anything.

Quote:

Now come up with that accusation. Bruce Wayne has the motivation, means, and time. His dead parents. His history of acting out in school. He disappears for years and when he come back Batman appears. Oh and of course he's rich and in charge of a company that has had various military projects.
Bruce Wayne was the head of a major business, who covered his tracks with the playboy routine, establishing alibis for himself like being off on a cruise with a Russian ballet etc.

But setting all that aside, Blake said he KNEW who Bruce was the moment he recognized the look on his face. His words. Nothing to do with Bruce's background or financial situation.

Blake's discovery was all predicated on a look. That's what his whole speech was about. That's why it's so ridiculous and unbelievable. If it was so easy to put 2+2 together about Bruce being Batman the way you claim Blake did, then half of Gotham would have twigged.

kvz5 07-08-2013 10:26 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker (Post 26303097)
But setting all that aside, Blake said he KNEW who Bruce was the moment he recognized the look on his face. His words. Nothing to do with Bruce's background or financial situation.

Yup.

BLAKE (cont’d)
We were so excited - Bruce Wayne,
billionaire orphan. We made up
stories about you. Legends. The
other boys’ stories were just that.
But when I saw you I knew who you
really were...
(Beat.) I’d seen
that look on your face. Same one I
taught myself.

Mistah K88 07-08-2013 10:49 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker (Post 26294759)
I feel Reese's discovery was plausible and well handled.

Blake's was ridiculous and unbelievable.

I'm gonna have to quote this for truth... Blake's was COMPLETE BULL...even by comic book standards. I'm sure you could see that the billionaire playboy thing is a fascade, knowing that there is a broken man under that fake smile...but it is quite a leap to assume that he and Batman are one in the same from that.

shauner111 07-08-2013 11:02 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker (Post 26303097)
But setting all that aside, Blake said he KNEW who Bruce was the moment he recognized the look on his face. His words. Nothing to do with Bruce's background or financial situation.

No. He knew who he was, he knew he was a phony in that moment of seeing his face.

It's funny how I see the film with anybody who isn't a hardcore Bat fan/comic fan...people who watch all kinds of other films that range from dramas to action to artsy films, well written, well directed movies and they ALL thought the scene was very logical and wonderful. Then the only people I talk to who are massive bat fans and comic book readers and a good portion of you guys are the ones who think the scene is unbelievable.

Go figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvz5 (Post 26303175)
Yup.

BLAKE (cont’d)
We were so excited - Bruce Wayne,
billionaire orphan. We made up
stories about you. Legends. The
other boys’ stories were just that.
But when I saw you I knew who you
really were... (Beat.) I’d seen
that look on your face. Same one I
taught myself.

Ummmmm yeah?...right then he knew who Bruce really was. It was the same look he taught himself. He knew he wasn't just some billionaire playboy having a rich good time. He knew Bruce was putting on the happy mask in public. He doesn't mean Batman. The kid has had years to put 2 and 2 together, to think on the suspicion, to investigate even as a cop. I find it funny when people don't understand this.

ThePhantasm 07-08-2013 11:09 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shauner111 (Post 26303459)
It's funny how I see the film with anybody who isn't a hardcore Bat fan/comic fan...people who watch all kinds of other films that range from dramas to action to artsy films, well written, well directed movies and they ALL thought the scene was very logical and wonderful. Then the only people I talk to who are massive bat fans and comic book readers and a good portion of you guys are the ones who think the scene is unbelievable.

Go figure.

Pulling this card in the argument makes you seem a little desperate. Nice appeal to majority / appeal to false authority (people who watch artsy films? who cares?) logical fallacies there. Oh, and a little poisoning the well logical fallacy about comic book fans to top things off and pre-emptively undermine and de-legitimize anything we say...

Tequilla 07-08-2013 11:14 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
One , is a beautiful acted/lighted scene , where a man with great sorrow tells the story of how he identified himself with another man. Their bond was their grief . This resonants immensely because we know how hard it was for Bruce to react to that. So much another persona emerged.

The other is a subplot/action that stales the great momentum of TDK.

ThePhantasm 07-08-2013 11:20 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
The Reese subplot didn't stall TDK's momentum, it amplified it. Would the ferry scene have been as suspenseful had we not seen Gotham's populace actively trying to kill Reese moments earlier? Reese's threat to reveal Batman's identity is a turning point in the film - the Joker decides Batman is too much fun to ruin in such a fashion.

Tequilla 07-08-2013 11:24 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
The ferry scene also stales it :woot:

shauner111 07-08-2013 11:34 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm (Post 26303491)
Pulling this card in the argument makes you seem a little desperate. Nice appeal to majority / appeal to false authority (people who watch artsy films? who cares?) logical fallacies there. Oh, and a little poisoning the well logical fallacy about comic book fans to top things off and pre-emptively undermine and de-legitimize anything we say...

I honestly don't care, it wasn't my intention to be desperate. Im saying that I see a link here. It's funny to me how it's only comic book hardcore fans who go crazy about the scene, fanboys if you will but I show the scene to all kinds of other people who's only attachment is seeing a good story with emotion and logic...and they are the ones who find it great. Im stating a connection that I see here. It's just hilarious to me.

ThePhantasm 07-08-2013 11:36 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Yeah, logical fallacies tend to be pretty funny.

ThePhantasm 07-08-2013 11:42 AM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tequilla (Post 26303603)
The ferry scene also stales it :woot:

Admittedly it does on subsequent viewings... the first time I saw the movie though I thought for sure one ferry might blow up the other. I had no idea what was going to happen.

The Joker 07-08-2013 02:19 PM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shauner111 (Post 26303459)
No. He knew who he was, he knew he was a phony in that moment of seeing his face.

No, he said he knew who he was. If he thought he was a phony then, he would have said so. Millionaires are often phonies giving money not because they want to but to promote their public image.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm (Post 26303587)
The Reese subplot didn't stall TDK's momentum, it amplified it. Would the ferry scene have been as suspenseful had we not seen Gotham's populace actively trying to kill Reese moments earlier? Reese's threat to reveal Batman's identity is a turning point in the film - the Joker decides Batman is too much fun to ruin in such a fashion.

Exactly :up:

Tequilla 07-08-2013 02:59 PM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm (Post 26303745)
Admittedly it does on subsequent viewings... the first time I saw the movie though I thought for sure one ferry might blow up the other. I had no idea what was going to happen.

Yeah , the suspense worked the first time. But it's such a superficial scene as i re-watch the film. There's nothing elegant in that section , not even visually. The point is taken , but ...it's one of the blots of the whole trilogy.

ThePhantasm 07-08-2013 03:13 PM

Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake
 
Its not as effective on subsequent viewings when you know what will happen... but it is still just as meaningful, and honestly I don't find it boring. Unlike parts of TDKR which just draaaag. Maybe because they involve characters I don't care as much about, like John Blake.


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