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Buford The Sly 01-28-2012 02:31 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DACrowe (Post 22393743)
I mean I don't expect them to rebuild Winterfell in the third book or anything. I just would like something small like Catlyn seeing Arya again and knowing that at least she's alive (as she thinks all her children but Robb are dead at this point). I'm all for realism and "grittiness," but considering the first book is about making us identify with the Starks, they should have some at least momentary victories in the story (beyond just battles). I think GRRM enjoys too much punishing the Starks and rewarding the Lannisters, but eventually it becomes less realistic to me and more trying to crush readers expectations.



I can believe that. Arya is starting to compete with Tyrion as my favorite character in the series.

Yeah not trying to spoil anything but the Lannister's have enemies (other than the Starks) that play the game just as well or better. In fact you might say they are their own worst enemy as well.

DACrowe 02-04-2012 11:35 AM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Okay, I just read the "Red Wedding" in book 3 and I need to vent....

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
****.

DID THAT JUST HAPPEN?!

I knew going into this book that Robb would die. But I didn't realize so would Cat and basically all the bannermen of the North. A wedding feast?! As a reader that was like being kicked in the gut. AND ARYA WAS SO CLOSE!

I accepted Ned would die because I knew it would feast the rest of the series greatly--and it has--but this....half of the characters I rooted for are dead! I mean I still will root for Arya and Bran and Jon....but they're not in the "game of thrones." I could care less if the Lannisters or Stannis wins or if the Tyrells and Dornishmen kill each other.

I am really depressed now. I love Tyrion but I want to see his family pay. And those Freys! They're even worse. I want to see Arya sneak into his bed room and whisper "I am Arya Stark" in his ear before slitting his throat. But I bet the way GRRM writes, she'll get flayed by the Boltons in book 4 and Frey will become Warden of the North at this rate!

ARGH!


P.S. Poor, poor Sansa. I know she was stupid and naive in the first book--but she was just a little girl. Her wedding to Tyrion and now this?! Poor, poor Sansa.

Now, I must press on.

Spidey-Bat 02-04-2012 12:33 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
I will just say to keep reading. The rest of the book isn't as depressing.

Wolvieboy17 02-04-2012 04:23 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Just finished book 5. OHHHHHHH MY GOD. :P

Seriously hope we don't have to wait 5 more years for book 6.

DACrowe 02-05-2012 12:23 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spidey-Bat (Post 22433705)
I will just say to keep reading. The rest of the book isn't as depressing.

Oh, I wasn't criticizing the book per se. I think it's been a riveting read and have kept going. The thing is, the events at the Wall and beyond are almost an entirely separate story. I know that eventually they'll play a huge role in the main story, but right now, the civil war among the kings is the main draw of the series. And while I find the Lannisters fascinating and the most interesting to read about, the only ones I feel you can really root for are the Starks. After gutting them all and letting Cat die while thinking her sons and youngest daughter are dead....even as Arya was right outside, my interest dwindles in the main thrust of the series for the last two books because it all feels so pointless right now. I guess what I'm saying is, it is fine to make the books dark and "realistic," but GRRM just took away the element of hope from the series. At least until Bran and Arya are adults which is a long way off.

Spidey-Bat 02-05-2012 12:31 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
There's still hope especially if you've caught the clues about who Jon's parents may be.

Buford The Sly 02-06-2012 10:23 AM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DACrowe (Post 22439041)
Oh, I wasn't criticizing the book per se. I think it's been a riveting read and have kept going. The thing is, the events at the Wall and beyond are almost an entirely separate story. I know that eventually they'll play a huge role in the main story, but right now, the civil war among the kings is the main draw of the series. And while I find the Lannisters fascinating and the most interesting to read about, the only ones I feel you can really root for are the Starks. After gutting them all and letting Cat die while thinking her sons and youngest daughter are dead....even as Arya was right outside, my interest dwindles in the main thrust of the series for the last two books because it all feels so pointless right now. I guess what I'm saying is, it is fine to make the books dark and "realistic," but GRRM just took away the element of hope from the series. At least until Bran and Arya are adults which is a long way off.

I'm the opposite. While I find the War of the Five Kings fascinating, the only things that really matter are what happen at the Wall (and beyond), the dragons and maybe Arya. The faceless men are up to somthing big I think. Littlefinger and Varys will be doing some damage too.

DACrowe 02-06-2012 10:57 AM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
In the long run the events on the Wall may be more important, as I hope Dany will be. However, while the Wall stuff is a fun read, the first the first three books are about the "game of thrones." A game that went from a shadow game in the first to the War of the Five Kings. And for me, it remains the central interest of the series even past Robb's death with the murder of Joffrey which I have now, satisfyingly, come upon.

In truth, I think Dany's are the hardest chapters to read because she is so separate from the rest of the book, she is literally in her own story (that is why GRRM exclusively releases her chapters in each book as a "novella"). I know that her story will have a payoff....in book 5 or 6 or even 7 (I hope not that long), but I prefer to focus on the book I have in my hands when I am reading it.

Buford The Sly 02-06-2012 11:21 AM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DACrowe (Post 22447961)
In the long run the events on the Wall may be more important, as I hope Dany will be. However, while the Wall stuff is a fun read, the first the first three books are about the "game of thrones." A game that went from a shadow game in the first to the War of the Five Kings. And for me, it remains the central interest of the series even past Robb's death with the murder of Joffrey which I have now, satisfyingly, come upon.

In truth, I think Dany's are the hardest chapters to read because she is so separate from the rest of the book, she is literally in her own story (that is why GRRM exclusively releases her chapters in each book as a "novella"). I know that her story will have a payoff....in book 5 or 6 or even 7 (I hope not that long), but I prefer to focus on the book I have in my hands when I am reading it.

You get to the Red Viper yet? Perhaps my favorite part of ASOS. You're almost there if you've read Joff's demise.

Wolvieboy17 02-06-2012 11:51 AM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
I find throughout the books, not only does it become clearer and clearer how the coming threat from the north is more important than anything else in Westeros but it also lends much more significance to both the titles of the Books series, a Song of Fire and Ice, and the Stark words 'Winter is Coming'. Everything is really a distraction.

For any Mass Effect fans, the White Walkers are the reapers, so who cares what Cerberus is up to, eh? :P

Drizzle 02-06-2012 04:50 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spidey-Bat (Post 22439101)
There's still hope especially if you've caught the clues about who Jon's parents may be.

It's been a while and there's so much to keep track of in these books, but if I remember correctly (?), wasn't it hinted that
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Robert Boratheon was his father and Lyanna Stark was his mother?
Or am I way off?

Buford The Sly 02-06-2012 05:04 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drizzle (Post 22451073)
It's been a while and there's so much to keep track of in these books, but if I remember correctly (?), wasn't it hinted that
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Robert Boratheon was his father and Lyanna Stark was his mother?
Or am I way off?

It's more
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.
That's the popular speculation anyways.

Spidey-Bat 02-06-2012 06:28 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drizzle (Post 22451073)
It's been a while and there's so much to keep track of in these books, but if I remember correctly (?), wasn't it hinted that
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Robert Boratheon was his father and Lyanna Stark was his mother?
Or am I way off?

As Buford said, it's
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Rhaegar and Lyanna. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Robert and Lyanna had sex. Whereas there's evidence that Rhaegar was attracted to Lyanna (Knight of the Laughing Tree story) and she could have become pregnant after Rhaegar "abducted" her. The "Promise me, Ned" stuff makes a lot more sense when it could mean that she was dying from childbirth and wanted Jon's identity kept secret so no one would try to kill him since he's a Targaryen.

DACrowe 02-08-2012 01:35 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
So, I finished ASOS last night. That was a great book all around. I actually think I prefer the second novel slightly as it was not quite as indulgent and long-in-the-tooth (I don't think book 3 had to be around 1,000 pages). But a lot happened and that ending with Tyrion KILLING Tywin I did not seem coming. Nor Cat's return from the dead....though she seems barely alive

I'll read the other two, but I'm not sure when. I've heard many say that they could have been one book but GRRM stretched it out into two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buford The Sly (Post 22448113)
You get to the Red Viper yet? Perhaps my favorite part of ASOS. You're almost there if you've read Joff's demise.

Yes he was a great character who went from repugnant to downright a favorite in his search for justice. I was not surprised when GRRM killed him off before he could finish Clegane who returned with superhuman prowess. That kind of goes back to my previous posts, GRRM wants to bring realism and grittiness to fantasy. And in reality it isn't black-and-white and the "good guys" do bad things and don't always win. But to push that point home in GRRM's writing, the good guys never win. Their victories are fleeting and insignificant while the ones the readers want to see justifiably pay always have decisive and monumental victories...until they betray each other.

I'm not really saying it's a bad thing, but it makes things like the Red Viper losing at the last minute kind of predictable.

Still a great book that even made me like Jaime Lannister!

I'm not sure when I'll start the next.

Spidey-Bat 02-08-2012 01:49 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
I definitely agree with you about liking the second more. I found it to be more engaging and better written from cover-to-cover. It's slow getting into ASOS. The first 3rd is kind of tedious and mostly just the characters traveling with little happening. I recall it started to pick up when Robb returned to Riverun and leading up to the Red Wedding. After that, something is happening every chapter and it's so hard to stop reading

Although AFFC and ADWD happen concurrently, still read AFFC first since the last several chapters of ADWD occur after it and mention things from it. AFFC was a bit of a chore to read at times (especially Brienne's chapters, don't care about that character at all).

I think you mentioned not liking or caring for Stannis, did your opinion change after finishing ASOS?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Personally, I like him and dislike him at the same time. His unyielding devotion to justice is admirable and he's the only king who answered the Night Watch's plea, so he probably cares more about the realm's safety than any other house. But his personality is pretty unlikable and I suspect his stubbornness and faith in Melisandre will ultimately do him in. Ever since he mentioned his dream where he saw a king being burned, I imagine it was him being roasted by one of Dany's dragons.

DACrowe 02-08-2012 09:20 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
I would agree the Catilyn story became more interesting when Robb returned to Riverrun, but overall I think it's just there were SO MANY POV characters and so many were on the road. But I wouldn't say it was ever boring or tedious. It just took it's time and probably could have gotten to the point fast and dropped a few hundred pages in the process.

As for Stannis,

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I liked him much better by the end of ASOS than I had at the beginning or through any of ACOK. Before he and Dantos were a bit too thinly developed but him imprisoning Dantos for treason and letting him out and making him Hand, even though he clearly stands at odds with Melissandre, made him much more intriguing.

I still think Renly would have been a better king than Stannis or any of the Lannisters and that Stannis murdering his own brother makes him pretty detestable. But unlike anyone, even the heroic Robb "Young Wolf" Stark, he put the interest of the realm above his own desires for power and kingship. His problem is he desperately lacks the human touch to win people to his cause and that he is following Melissandre so blindly. She is right about dark magic coming from the North, but her craziness and dogma that involves human sacrifice will be his undoing.

He saved the Wall and should be commended--his offer to Jon Snow to become Lord of Winterfell was also a great twist--but I don't trust him. His ideologically narrow worldview and submission to Melissandre makes me keep him at arm's length. But he has become an interesting character to read about.


I also just looked up that my favorite characters--Tyrion and Arya--are either not in AFFC or that they're in it briefly. :( That makes it a bit harder to pick up another brick of a book, but I suspect I will press on still. Oh well.

Buford The Sly 02-09-2012 02:43 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DACrowe (Post 22470477)
I would agree the Catilyn story became more interesting when Robb returned to Riverrun, but overall I think it's just there were SO MANY POV characters and so many were on the road. But I wouldn't say it was ever boring or tedious. It just took it's time and probably could have gotten to the point fast and dropped a few hundred pages in the process.

As for Stannis,

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I liked him much better by the end of ASOS than I had at the beginning or through any of ACOK. Before he and Dantos were a bit too thinly developed but him imprisoning Dantos for treason and letting him out and making him Hand, even though he clearly stands at odds with Melissandre, made him much more intriguing.

I still think Renly would have been a better king than Stannis or any of the Lannisters and that Stannis murdering his own brother makes him pretty detestable. But unlike anyone, even the heroic Robb "Young Wolf" Stark, he put the interest of the realm above his own desires for power and kingship. His problem is he desperately lacks the human touch to win people to his cause and that he is following Melissandre so blindly. She is right about dark magic coming from the North, but her craziness and dogma that involves human sacrifice will be his undoing.

He saved the Wall and should be commended--his offer to Jon Snow to become Lord of Winterfell was also a great twist--but I don't trust him. His ideologically narrow worldview and submission to Melissandre makes me keep him at arm's length. But he has become an interesting character to read about.


I also just looked up that my favorite characters--Tyrion and Arya--are either not in AFFC or that they're in it briefly. :( That makes it a bit harder to pick up another brick of a book, but I suspect I will press on still. Oh well.

Here's the deal about A Feast For Crows. It shifts the focus of the story away from the Starks a bit. Arya is in Feast and has several chapters. Her chapters are some of the best in the whole book. The main gripe about Feast is that three of the fan faves (Jon, Dany, and Tyrion) just are left out along with Bran but if you are able to pick up on the subtlies of GRRM's writing it's starting to build something rather big Faceless men FTW!. Now A Dance With Dragons, people are still on the fence about. There are some great parts, however the best part about it to me was, Winter finally comes!

DACrowe 02-09-2012 06:47 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Well I won't judge AFC or ADWD until I read them. I think I am more open to "fantasy realpolitik" (to borrow from Rolling Stone) than some readers. Seeing Cersei descend into madness should be interesting. As should what the outlaws are doing around the Riverlands.

Though, I will admit that it feels like after book 3 we're hurdling towards a finale. I feel like it could have been a 4-5 book series with book 4 being the onslaught of winter and 5 the climax. The fact that what I imagine should come next is going to be books 6 and 7, makes me worry 4 and 5 are kind of him padding it out or stretching it along so it can be bigger. Kind of like sending Arya to Braavos where I assume she'll learn how to take revenge from the Faceless men when that could have been done in Westeros and would have thus condensed her story by at least one book.

Anyways, I won't pass judgement on them until I read them myself. But I just ran through the first three books in about two months, so I'm deciding whether to take a break right now.

Wolvieboy17 02-09-2012 09:32 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
I read all 5 books in about a month and I have no regrets. It's definitely best to read them close together i think, everything stays fresh in your mind. With all those plots happening, there are a lot of moving parts.

Book 4 and 5 definitely need to be read back to back.

Roose Bolton 02-12-2012 02:37 AM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
So as we progress further through the series it's becoming apparent that the Dunk and Egg novellas really are more important to the main plot, what with BloodRaven and the possible Blackfyre return I'm certainly eager to see what GRRM will reveal with the next one, which if I'm not mistaken is set in Winterfell.

Buford The Sly 02-12-2012 10:50 AM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon sexton (Post 22491173)
So as we progress further through the series it's becoming apparent that the Dunk and Egg novellas really are more important to the main plot, what with BloodRaven and the possible Blackfyre return I'm certainly eager to see what GRRM will reveal with the next one, which if I'm not mistaken is set in Winterfell.

Yeah the Dunk and Egg stories are especially interesting considering what goes down in ADWD. They're pretty cool too.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Maybe Dunk is Hodor's Grandfather.

Matt Mortem 03-06-2012 10:52 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
I haven't even finished book 1. I own all of the books released so far. I should really got on that.

Spidey-Bat 03-08-2012 10:35 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
I have a question for those who have finished A Feast for Crows.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Littlefinger tells Sansa he plans to have her marry Harry once he's inherited the Vale and that when she shows up with the Direwolf cloak, that every lord of the Vale will swear his sword to win her back Winterfell. Does he mean they will take Winterfell back from the Ironborn or take the North back from the Boltons?

I thought it was the latter but the former makes more sense since it wouldn't antagonize the Iron Throne.

Matt Mortem 03-16-2012 03:02 PM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
I can't be the only one concerned about this

http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/p...lo/13722-1.png

ChickenScratch 03-17-2012 11:39 AM

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire books
 
Over react much? Authors can live way longer than 63. It's much ado about nothing.


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