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-   -   Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=335432)

TMC1982 03-24-2010 05:13 PM

Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
I bring them up because both in recent years, have grown a bit of a reputation of being meddling executives in relation to Marvel's TV shows and movies. I don't feel that I need to go into much detail right now about Tom Rothman and company over at Fox.

As far as Avi Arad goes, well he did force Sam Raimi to shoehorn Venom into Spider-Man 3. This was despite the fact that Raimi made it known that he didn't like the character. Also, Raimi was already planning on using Vulture as the "third" villain to go with Harry Osborn/New Goblin and Sandman. Vulture (Ben Kinglsey was a top canidate for the part) would've been a cellmate of Sandman's. Vulture would apparently, want revenge against Spider-Man for putting him away in the first place. He also would've acted as a guilty conscience for Sandman. This would've on paper been a lot more plausible and coherent than the heavy-handed, crammed mess that ultimately became Spider-Man 3.

Not only that, but Avi Arad was also the main reason why there was no six season of the 1990s Spider-Man animated series. This was despite the fact that the show was still very popular and had a lot of loose ends (such as Mary Jane Watson's disappearance). However, the head of Fox Kids, Margaret Loesh had an ax to grind with Arad. Therefore, after the 65 episode contrat was complete, Loesh outright had the series canceled and the animation house, Marvel Films, shut down.

hippie_hunter 03-24-2010 05:30 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Rothman no argument.

S.A.A.D. 03-24-2010 05:40 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
What else has Avi Arad done? I don't know much of the terrible things he's done. I don't want to say Fox yet because Avi could be worse than them imo.

deathshead2 03-24-2010 05:47 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by S.A.A.D (Post 18194853)
What else has Avi Arad done? I don't know much of the terrible things he's done. I don't want to say Fox yet because Avi could be worse than them imo.

Avi has done far more good than bad. He was one of the people that saved Marvel in the 90s, made Toybiz what it was, helped make the deals for all the Marvel movies, shows, other products. Sure as a producer he has pushed for certain things(Like Venom) but he was doing his job and what he thought was best at the time.

Rothman while making hits for FOX like Alvin and the Chipmucks mostly made terrible decisions.

Octoberist 03-24-2010 05:57 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
i really think Rothman is worse

S.A.A.D. 03-24-2010 06:18 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deathshead2 (Post 18194880)
Avi has done far more good than bad. He was one of the people that saved Marvel in the 90s, made Toybiz what it was, helped make the deals for all the Marvel movies, shows, other products. Sure as a producer he has pushed for certain things(Like Venom) but he was doing his job and what he thought was best at the time.

Rothman while making hits for FOX like Alvin and the Chipmucks mostly made terrible decisions.

Well I'm going with Fox on this one.

Zant 03-24-2010 08:42 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TMC1982 (Post 18194740)
I bring them up because both in recent years, have grown a bit of a reputation of being meddling executives in relation to Marvel's TV shows and movies. I don't feel that I need to go into much detail right now about Tom Rothman and company over at Fox.

As far as Avi Arad goes, well he did force Sam Raimi to shoehorn Venom into Spider-Man 3. This was despite the fact that Raimi made it known that he didn't like the character. Also, Raimi was already planning on using Vulture as the "third" villain to go with Harry Osborn/New Goblin and Sandman. Vulture (Ben Kinglsey was a top canidate for the part) would've been a cellmate of Sandman's. Vulture would apparently, want revenge against Spider-Man for putting him away in the first place. He also would've acted as a guilty conscience for Sandman. This would've on paper been a lot more plausible and coherent than the heavy-handed, crammed mess that ultimately became Spider-Man 3


Not only that, but Avi Arad was also the main reason why there was no six season of the 1990s Spider-Man animated series. This was despite the fact that the show was still very popular and had a lot of loose ends (such as Mary Jane Watson's disappearance). However, the head of Fox Kids, Margaret Loesh had an ax to grind with Arad. Therefore, after the 65 episode contrat was complete, Loesh outright had the series canceled and the animation house, Marvel Films, shut down.


So because of Spiderman 3 Avi is a bad guy now? Its funny how people will always focus on the negative things.I guess its more fun to hate.
Also Spiderman tas needed to be put out of its misery

Mace Dolex 03-24-2010 08:54 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TMC1982 (Post 18194740)
I bring them up because both in recent years, have grown a bit of a reputation of being meddling executives in relation to Marvel's TV shows and movies. I don't feel that I need to go into much detail right now about Tom Rothman and company over at Fox.

As far as Avi Arad goes, well he did force Sam Raimi to shoehorn Venom into Spider-Man 3. This was despite the fact that Raimi made it known that he didn't like the character. Also, Raimi was already planning on using Vulture as the "third" villain to go with Harry Osborn/New Goblin and Sandman. Vulture (Ben Kinglsey was a top canidate for the part) would've been a cellmate of Sandman's. Vulture would apparently, want revenge against Spider-Man for putting him away in the first place. He also would've acted as a guilty conscience for Sandman. This would've on paper been a lot more plausible and coherent than the heavy-handed, crammed mess that ultimately became Spider-Man 3.

Not only that, but Avi Arad was also the main reason why there was no six season of the 1990s Spider-Man animated series. This was despite the fact that the show was still very popular and had a lot of loose ends (such as Mary Jane Watson's disappearance). However, the head of Fox Kids, Margaret Loesh had an ax to grind with Arad. Therefore, after the 65 episode contrat was complete, Loesh outright had the series canceled and the animation house, Marvel Films, shut down.

Where do people get this info, I mean it's not like Entertainment Tonight and E! News Daily keep tabs on every comic book movie do they?

And I don't know what Rothman looks like, I know Avi Arad's face because he's always been mentioned in Wizard.

But I do hate how Avi Arad would lay on the B.S. for every turd Marvel movie like Fantastic Four and Ghost Rider saying that the film is a masterpiece.

FaT_tONle 03-24-2010 09:39 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Arad does not get a pass. I understand he was instrumental in the 90's in terms of getting the brand out there, but enough with the exposure. He basically puts his name on everything and whores it out like he's entitled because of his past work. If you want to keep his name attached then fine, but ENOUGH with the creative control. Why Sony hasn't booted him off of the Spidey reboot is beyond me, and that's probably the reason why I will give up on the reboot, as much faith as I have in Webb and Vanderbilt's script. The clowns like Ziskin and Arad are still attached and it starts and ends there.

As for Rothman, don't even compare. He could be assassinated tomorrow and I don't think fanboys would give two ****s. We'd share our sentiments and condolences to his family, but the Hype would probably have a non-stop party a week later, lasting at least until Fox/Marvel ****s up the next property. Of course we'd all prefer he just get the axe and be demoted a the lowest possible position based on his former credentials. Hopefully out of the industry all together.

Figs 03-24-2010 10:02 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
I fully agree with everything you said Fat Tonie.

I voted for Rothman but I also want to bring up Lauren Schuler Donner. I'm not sure exactly how much creative control she has but she says a lot of bull **** that usually turns out to be, well...bull ****.

TMC1982 03-25-2010 12:04 AM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FaT_tONle (Post 18195721)
Arad does not get a pass. I understand he was instrumental in the 90's in terms of getting the brand out there, but enough with the exposure. He basically puts his name on everything and whores it out like he's entitled because of his past work. If you want to keep his name attached then fine, but ENOUGH with the creative control. Why Sony hasn't booted him off of the Spidey reboot is beyond me, and that's probably the reason why I will give up on the reboot, as much faith as I have in Webb and Vanderbilt's script. The clowns like Ziskin and Arad are still attached and it starts and ends there.

As for Rothman, don't even compare. He could be assassinated tomorrow and I don't think fanboys would give two ****s. We'd share our sentiments and condolences to his family, but the Hype would probably have a non-stop party a week later, lasting at least until Fox/Marvel ****s up the next property. Of course we'd all prefer he just get the axe and be demoted a the lowest possible position based on his former credentials. Hopefully out of the industry all together.

John Semper, the producer and story editor for the 1994 Spider-Man animated series gives some insight of Avi Arad's actions behind the scenes. I'm only including the most direct portions concerning Arad:
Quote:

http://marvel.toonzone.net/spideytas...interview4.htm

How did you get the job as Producer/Story Editor of Spider-Man: The Animated Series?

Marvel Comics was rapidly going downhill (which would culminate with it going bankrupt). Marvel needed something to halt that rapid descent into oblivion. Avi Arad (who’s currently the king of Hollywood) back then was just an unknown toy guy who had been brought in get Marvel characters going in the media – which “coincidentally” would also make his toy company, Toy-Biz, richer because he had the rights to create all the Marvel toys and action figures. So he had created this new company called Marvel Films Animation to bring the properties to life. We were ultimately going to do ALL the Marvel characters and he was going to make toys out of everything and make a lot of money. Those were heady days. This Spider-Man animated series was going to be his first big foray into TV and he desperately wanted to get it right. Toy-Biz had a lot of money riding on the new Marvel toy lines which were coming out, so everybody involved had gambled big on these properties.

How much did the toy line affect the stories you were trying to tell?

The show was intended by Avi Arad from the ground up to be one big toy commercial. At first, I had to battle against that and things between us were very tense. At one point I was almost fired. Eventually he and I found common ground and he realized that a great show would sell toys better than anything, and I really wanted to make a great show. So we had fewer confrontations. But, from his point of view, it was still one big toy commercial.

The toy line definitely affected me. It was common for me to get a phone call from Avi’s people asking me to use a certain character because they were going to make a toy out of him. But they were nice about it, and, I’m actually fairly accommodating, so we always managed to work it out.

And I also affected the toy line. Avi was dead set against using Madame Web, but I insisted because I saw a place for her in my big final story line. So, despite his mumblings and mutterings about how he couldn’t make a boy-friendly toy out of a "lousy old broad", I used her with great success. And, guess what? They made a toy out of her! It’s one of my most prized possessions.

However, if you want to see what would have happened to my series without me there to protect it, check out “Spider-Man Unlimited.” It’s nothing but a toy commercial, devoid of any real creative spark. It’s junk. But Avi had it all his way on that one, so you see what you ended up with.

The series had a vast number of guest stars, were any of them used as a potential pilot to their own spin off? How far did they get going, if at all?

The use of guest stars was mostly me being a kid in a candy store and having the entire Marvel stable of characters at my disposal and wanting to play with them all. I wanted to be the first to animate Dr. Strange (a BIG favorite of mine) and Blade (another favorite). I used X-Men as a stunt for ratings. We didn’t do any deliberate pilots. But Avi and his chief minion, Matt Edelman, were always swiping scripts and outlines off my desk and using them to go pitch series ideas and made-for-TV movie ideas to everybody in town. There might not have been a Blade movie if I hadn’t used him in the series and effectively brought him to the forefront of Avi’s attention.

Were you consulted at all for Spider-Man: Unlimited?

Good lord, no, of course not. No, I was “persona non grata” with Avi by then because I fought too much with him on the previous series. He wanted to work with story editors who would do what he wanted without conflict. Hence you get arguably the worst Spidey series ever.

Why did the show end with Spidey and MJ not being reunited, and Spidey still spiralling through limbo, when Marvel Films' order was always for 65 episodes?

Oh, as I’ve said elsewhere, when Peter Parker faces his creator, Stan, and finally says “I like myself” then his story is complete. He’s gone beyond his creator. He’s now his own creation. A lot of people think I threw Stan in there as a cheap gimmick, but the bigger, more cosmic issue is overlooked. Here’s a guy facing his creator (in essence his deity) and saying, “Guess what? I’m beyond what you created, with all my flaws and problems. I faced the challenge you set out for me and I’ve progressed beyond it. And I really like myself.”

When he can say that, then the hero’s journey has been told and the saga is complete. Who cares if he gets the girl or not?

But I left it open in case the series was continued – which was always a possibility. The initial order was for 65 episodes, but Fox could have renewed us for more if they’d wanted. However, the head of Fox Kids Network at the time, Margaret Loesch, hated Avi and wanted to put him out of business, so there was no chance of the show being continued. The show was canceled and, as she had intended, the studio, Marvel Films Animation, went out of business. In the end, my show, which was a number-one-rated hit, was scuttled because of vindictive internal politics. Welcome to my world.

Gabe99 03-25-2010 02:48 AM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
I voted for Avi.

FaT_tONle 03-25-2010 06:37 AM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
I'll go through the meat of that article later, but as far as Arad, what really annoys me is how his name is attached with every movie next to Stan Lee as executive producer. The executive producers need to be the creative minds and architects of the original source. Not a producer who marketed the hell out of it. Just get his name off of that list with Stan Lee, and just list him as producer.

I_am_iron_man 03-25-2010 09:30 AM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Both, but i vote Arad.

Rothman has ruined most of Marvel's Fox's franchises (X-Men: Last Stand, Elektra, Daredevil, both F4).

Avi Arad has ruined most of the Marvel Movies of past years (Blade: Trinity, both F4, Daredevil, Elektra, Ghost Rider, X-Men: Last Stand, Spider-Man 3...) because I personally think that Arad hasn't read so many comics in his life...

Figs 03-25-2010 12:35 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by I_am_iron_man (Post 18196715)
Both, but i vote Arad.

Rothman has ruined most of Marvel's Fox's franchises (X-Men: Last Stand, Elektra, Daredevil, both F4).

Avi Arad has ruined most of the Marvel Movies of past years (Blade: Trinity, both F4, Daredevil, Elektra, Ghost Rider, X-Men: Last Stand, Spider-Man 3...) because I personally think that Arad hasn't read so many comics in his life...

I'm willing to bet that's incredibly true. I think he's your typical corporate whore who just focuses on marketing and whatnot to get rich and move up in the ranks.

I still think one of his biggest F you's to the fan base is when he lied his ass off about how the fans will be pleased with Galactus in the FF:RotSS. I'm not even a huge FF fan or much of a Galactus fan(although he is a badass)and even I was bitter.

S.A.A.D. 03-25-2010 12:56 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Figs (Post 18197198)
I'm willing to bet that's incredibly true. I think he's your typical corporate whore who just focuses on marketing and whatnot to get rich and move up in the ranks.

I still think one of his biggest F you's to the fan base is when he lied his ass off about how the fans will be pleased with Galactus in the FF:RotSS. I'm not even a huge FF fan or much of a Galactus fan(although he is a badass)and even I was bitter.

What did he say word for word or whatever? I never came across any bullcrap he spewed,and what was the real reason why Galactus wasn't in the movie? If memory serves me correct there was another reason for him not being done justice in the movie,I know the other one that was he was being saved for a Silver Surfer movie.

And I also second the notion that something something Donner should be added to the poll.

TMC1982 03-25-2010 03:12 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Figs (Post 18195798)
I fully agree with everything you said Fat Tonie.

I voted for Rothman but I also want to bring up Lauren Schuler Donner. I'm not sure exactly how much creative control she has but she says a lot of bull **** that usually turns out to be, well...bull ****.

Well, here's some better insight about LSD on the IMDb boards:
she screws up everything she touchs

Stop Messing With My Childhood

Spidey-Quad 03-25-2010 03:29 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Great thread! They are both anti-christ's to me. Hitler or Nappolean... "a rose by any other name ... is still a rose"

I picked Avi, because he ruined my favorite... Spider-Man. Twice!

May he forever rot in comic book movie Hell!

Oh, and the Roth dude too!

Spidey-Quad 03-25-2010 03:38 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deathshead2 (Post 18194880)
Avi has done far more good than bad. He was one of the people that saved Marvel in the 90s, made Toybiz what it was, helped make the deals for all the Marvel movies, shows, other products. Sure as a producer he has pushed for certain things(Like Venom) but he was doing his job and what he thought was best at the time.

Rothman while making hits for FOX like Alvin and the Chipmucks mostly made terrible decisions.

He derserves credit in some movies along with FOX.

DD, Elecktra, FF, FF2 come to mind. Along with Punisher 1, Man-Thing, Blade 3 and GR are all under his influence. And don't forget his ingenuse idea BRATZ. His crime? Putting his own spin on each trying to justify realizim. Therefore his crime was/is not trusting the cannon.

BB, TDK, IM and IH have proven him wrong!

Spidey-Quad 03-25-2010 03:41 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FaT_tONle (Post 18195721)
Arad does not get a pass. I understand he was instrumental in the 90's in terms of getting the brand out there, but enough with the exposure. He basically puts his name on everything and whores it out like he's entitled because of his past work. If you want to keep his name attached then fine, but ENOUGH with the creative control. Why Sony hasn't booted him off of the Spidey reboot is beyond me, and that's probably the reason why I will give up on the reboot, as much faith as I have in Webb and Vanderbilt's script. The clowns like Ziskin and Arad are still attached and it starts and ends there.

As for Rothman, don't even compare. He could be assassinated tomorrow and I don't think fanboys would give two ****s. We'd share our sentiments and condolences to his family, but the Hype would probably have a non-stop party a week later, lasting at least until Fox/Marvel ****s up the next property. Of course we'd all prefer he just get the axe and be demoted a the lowest possible position based on his former credentials. Hopefully out of the industry all together.

Dead on brother, but don't forget Avi was sleeping with Rothman on most of those movies!

Kahran Ramsus 03-25-2010 04:19 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Avi Arad is just like most producers out there. Sure he is more interested than profit than creativity, but that's his job. He's made some bad decisions and many good ones. He's not that bad.

Tom Rothman is just terrible. He has this narrowminded idea of what it takes to make a successful film and he won't stray from it at all, despite it never actually working. There is a difference between having a voice and being completely meddlesome from start to finish. You can see it in the filmmakers. There are many directors who absolutely refuse to work with FOX any more because of Rothman. You don't see that with Arad. That pretty much says it all.

TheVileOne 03-25-2010 04:42 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Tom Rothman was by far the biggest offender.

Like it or not, without the deals Arad made in the last 10-15 years, Marvel might not have survived through the 1990's. Not to say Arad didn't make mistakes or have his flaws as the Semper interviews proved.

Just saying, without the animated shows and the movie deals Marvel probably would've gone under.

FaT_tONle 03-27-2010 11:08 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Quote:

Now some reports last week mentioned Louis for Marvel’s THE AVENGERS but if you read exactamente you would see that it was LOUIS who was pimping himself. See, there’s no one really in charge of Marvel at the moment as they merge with Disney. Everyone knows that Kevin Feige walks funny because he has Avi Arad’s hand up his ass puppeting him and that Avi has been lobbying Disney to give him back control of Marvel- which they don’t want, being sane and all. So no one is making future decisions for the time being. So don’t count on La Francais directore para Los Avengers!
http://www.latinoreview.com/news/exc...k-to-life-9568

Our favorite scooper site LR is at it again... any truth to this? I am sure there is, but still. Didn't know Arad still had that kind of pull in terms of making himself a candidate once again. I fear if Feige slips up, Arad's c*** might get thrusted back into the mix as dominate male of everything Marvel... outside of Rothman... :dry:

[A] 03-27-2010 11:13 PM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
Definitely Rothman.

spider-neil 03-28-2010 03:33 AM

Re: Avi Arad vs. Tom Rothman - Who's Worse
 
avi, for forcing venom down sam's throat when the quality of the first two movies was fantastic.


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