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-   -   I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later. (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=359615)

Kurt Wagner 07-17-2011 07:36 PM

I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Three years later, I STILL believe in Harvey Dent...

But I'm a little curious on what people on the whole "Harvey Dent dies but Two-Face lives" theories. I personally think he's alive. The death in the film is only symbolic and not a physical death.

In the words of Harvey Dent/Two-Face himself, "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." It's very clear that's EXACTLY what happened... The person in the body, essentially, did not die. He became a villain. Harvey Dent lived long enough to see himself become Two-Face. At the death at the end, if you notice, Harvey's face was facing up and the burnt side was on the ground. His arms were out to the side and his legs straight in a symbolic Jesus/martyr fashion. The death that we witnessed wasn't the death of the person, but the symbolic martyr death of Harvey - "The White Knight" of Gotham City.

In addition, at the memorial service for Harvey, there was no casket to be seen. Thus, no body to prove the death of Harvey/Two-Face. As the movie was coming to a close, he was no longer that "White Knight," but a villain fueled by revenge--Two-Face, the disfigured, mourning killer. The death that we saw was the symbolic death of Harvey, and the birth of Two-Face.

Plus, Batman was the only one that could have killed him, and remember Batman's only rule?

Harvey Dent is dead.
Two-Face lives on.

People who support the idea that Harvey/Two-Face is dead do so mainly on the idea that 1. He's laying motionless on the ground and 2. It's written in the shooting script "Dent lies at the bottom of the hole, his neck broken. DEAD." BUT... People fail to realize that 1. The script is only a blueprint for a film, not a bible. Just because it's written, doesn't mean it will be scene. The film is intentionally ambiguous about Harvey's/Two-Face's death both because the duality of his death makes sense for the character and the story, and also leaves the possibility for seeing the character in future films. In addition, it's quite possible that the filmmakers left it ambiguous since Heath Ledger's death during filming made The Joker's return less of a possibility. 2. The very next line in the script says, "The coin stops spinning, GOOD SIDE UP." This suggests that Harvey/Two-Face is alive because the coin says so. It's ambiguous in the script also.

Let's not also forget that Two-Face says so himself in a hospital scene...
Detective Wuertz: Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.
Two-Face: Half

Mister Meddle 07-17-2011 08:54 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
No offense but I think you're over speculating. Not trying to ruin the fun but if Christopher Nolan said he's dead then he's dead. He's the only person that can tell us whether or not the characters in his story are still alive. There's nothing more to it.

Bathead 07-17-2011 09:02 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
I voted for the second as i believe it is possible, but I really don't know. At ths point it doesn't look like he's gonna be in TDKR.

Kurt Wagner 07-17-2011 11:44 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
When did Nolan himself ever say that Harvey Dent/Two-Face is dead? Only Aaron Eckhart said that Nolan said that... and for all we know, that could be misinformation. Nolan is super secretive about his films... So anything is possible.

Kurt Wagner 07-21-2011 07:26 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Lets also not forget that Batman knew the fall that Marconi took when Batman dropped him would not kill him. He even says so. When Batman takes Harvey down, he's counting on the same thing... not having the fall kill Harvey. It's no accident that during the fall, Nolan chooses to focus the shot on the coin that Harvey flipped just before Batman took him down... The coin appearing on it's good side, suggesting that he lives... The good part of Harvey... the White Knight... Lives.

IndyJokerJones 07-22-2011 05:39 AM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner (Post 20965807)
Lets also not forget that Batman knew the fall that Marconi took when Batman dropped him would not kill him.

Except Maroni landed on his feet, breaking his leg(s). Harvey landed in a way that would break his back and shatter his skull. He's dead, give it up.

Blue Sugar 07-22-2011 09:42 AM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
In the eyes of the public Dent died a hero. It was Batman who saw himself become the villain. Love that twist.

Kurt Wagner 07-23-2011 01:17 AM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Sugar (Post 20971339)
In the eyes of the public Dent died a hero. It was Batman who saw himself become the villain. Love that twist.

That's not the twist... You obviously don't know Nolan films. Ever see the Prestige?

Every great magic trick consists of three parts or acts. The first part is called "The Pledge". The magician shows you something ordinary: a deck of cards, a bird or a man. He shows you this object. Perhaps he asks you to inspect it to see if it is indeed real, unaltered, normal. But of course... it probably isn't. The second act is called "The Turn". The magician takes the ordinary something and makes it do something extraordinary. Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it, because of course you're not really looking. You don't really want to know. You want to be fooled. But you wouldn't clap yet. Because making something disappear isn't enough; you have to bring it back. That's why every magic trick has a third act, the hardest part, the part we call "The Prestige"."

Caekzor 07-23-2011 03:05 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner (Post 20912271)
2. The very next line in the script says, "The coin stops spinning, GOOD SIDE UP." This suggests that Harvey/Two-Face is alive because the coin says so. It's ambiguous in the script also.

The coin was flipped for Gordon's son. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Sugar (Post 20971339)
In the eyes of the public Dent died a hero. It was Batman who saw himself become the villain.

Exactly.

Also, do you really think that they (Gordon AND the police) stuffed Harvey Dent in a room in the basement of Arkham Asylum and somehow kept that quiet? Which means that a lot more people would need to be in on 'the secret'.

Or maybe Gordon dragged Dent off and hid him until he could come back later (Harvey stayed unconscious for a long time) and take him home... maybe Harvey is locked in Gordon's basement! :wow:

flyinghamster 08-15-2011 02:12 AM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
for everybody insisting that the fall killed the charecter , why wasn't he dead when he was riding the car with Marconi and driver, the crash that killed the other two in the car why didn't it kill harvey then and there.

HisMagicTrick 08-15-2011 02:26 AM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flyinghamster (Post 21205701)
for everybody insisting that the fall killed the charecter , why wasn't he dead when he was riding the car with Marconi and driver, the crash that killed the other two in the car why didn't it kill harvey then and there.

Why is everyone so sure that the crash killed Maroni? Has anyone who works on these movies actually said so?

Liam_H 08-15-2011 03:49 AM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
@Kurt Wagner
I don't know why you would bring the premise of the Prestige into the Batman movies, its not like Nolan only makes movies that have a twist at the end.

StarLord 08-15-2011 04:36 AM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Considering they had the service for Harvey and I'm pretty sure Gordon would have called for paramedics at the end. It's not like he would have just left the body lying there!

He's dead.

Cobblepot 08-15-2011 12:07 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Harvey is a tough guy, he survided after being severely burned. I'm sure he survived the fall.

But Harvey's dead, there's only Two-Face...

The Joker 08-20-2011 07:00 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
As much as I'd love more of Eckhart's Two Face, I think he's dead.

Blitzkrieg Bop 08-20-2011 08:11 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Nolan and Eckhart have already said he's dead. There is no discussion.

Kurt Wagner 08-20-2011 08:46 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg Bop (Post 21260501)
Nolan and Eckhart have already said he's dead. There is no discussion.

Like i asked before... When did Nolan ever say this?

And when Eckhart answered it, he was ambiguous...
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7359200n

Kurt Wagner 09-13-2011 04:11 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg Bop (Post 21260501)
Nolan and Eckhart have already said he's dead. There is no discussion.

Okaaaaay, so I ask again... When did Nolan say this???

Snare 09-13-2011 04:22 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Wagner (Post 20965807)
Lets also not forget that Batman knew the fall that Marconi took when Batman dropped him would not kill him. He even says so. When Batman takes Harvey down, he's counting on the same thing... not having the fall kill Harvey. It's no accident that during the fall, Nolan chooses to focus the shot on the coin that Harvey flipped just before Batman took him down... The coin appearing on it's good side, suggesting that he lives... The good part of Harvey... the White Knight... Lives.

If you look closely enough at the coin you can see Venom's reflection in it.

:o

I'm Not a Hero 09-13-2011 06:14 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
I strongly believe he is dead.

TheBat812 09-13-2011 11:36 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Jonathan Nolan semi-confirmed it. http://incontention.com/2008/07/21/j...e-unthinkable/

But anyways, he's dead imo, and no reason to bring him back. We see him dead for a reason. When would Harvey's body in Two-face form have time to run away, and why would they never mention that during the tribute scene?

Kurt Wagner 09-26-2011 03:12 AM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBat812 (Post 21449289)
Jonathan Nolan semi-confirmed it. http://incontention.com/2008/07/21/j...e-unthinkable/

But anyways, he's dead imo, and no reason to bring him back. We see him dead for a reason. When would Harvey's body in Two-face form have time to run away, and why would they never mention that during the tribute scene?

The reason to bring him back is because he is one of the most interesting villians in the Batman universe... second to only the Joker. There is a reason why Dent's death is ambiguous. And also why they never fully confirmed it... all answers on the question of Dent's death have been semi-confirmed as you put it. Why wouldn't they mention it in the tribute scene? Because of the element of surprise.

darkjedi4z 09-29-2011 07:30 AM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
It would've been awesome if he had a cameo, like locked up in Arkham or something, where they put him to hide him. But yeah, I think he died.... I don't know if it was photoshopped or anything, but I saw something (which I won't say) that made it look like he was dead.

Indy1Jones 09-29-2011 07:18 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Dead Maybe.

Ultra Lantern 10-02-2011 05:18 PM

Re: I Believe in Harvey Dent... Three years later.
 
Harvey Dent is dead,but Two-Face lives.


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