The SuperHeroHype Forums

The SuperHeroHype Forums (http://forums.superherohype.com/index.php)
-   Man of Steel (http://forums.superherohype.com/forumdisplay.php?f=348)
-   -   Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1 (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=371565)

Thread Manager 11-17-2011 03:35 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization
 
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

Rodrigo90 11-17-2011 03:35 PM

Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization
 
A discussion how you want Superman to be written and handled. In what way do you want to see him progress throughout the movie?

SuperMike335!! 11-17-2011 03:35 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathlok (Post 21879449)
Superman is such a powerful figure that he does not need to hide behind a cocky/arrogant attitude.
I do agree that he could/should(?) intimidate regular criminals along the lines of, "You know I could kill you with a flick of my finger... But you will suffer the consequences of your actions better by sitting in a jail cell for the next ten years."

Or something like that...

But I would really hate to see an always arrogant Superman.


That sounds creepy.

herolee10 11-18-2011 04:13 AM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
As long as Superman isn't presented as some reluctant angst filled hero in this film with a set of morally gray views, then I think we should be good.

Superman, by the end of the film, should be presented as the hero that most heroes would want to either aspire to be like or to be respected by.

Granted, I'm not expecting nor wanting a perfect Superman, especially since this will be his early years, but imho, with a character such as superman, a writer or the person behind the creative scenes must always be careful in determining as to what they will give the character to struggle with internally and how they go about executing it.

Personally, I've never seen Superman who's the type to be reluctant towards saving people. He doesn't need to be pushed by tragedy or guilt to go out of his way and save someone in need.

If anything, I could see Superman in this film at the start being a little wary of going public (out in the open) where people can see him full front and center due to thinking that people may end up being very afraid of him due to his alien nature, thus chooses to save people quietly at the start, only to realize later on that by emerging and becoming a symbol of hope and realizing the impact that his reputation has made, that it'll be to the earth's best benefit if he created that person of Superman to represent all of that for the people.


Another dilemma I could see Superman having is wondering if the actions that he's taking are in fact the best ones for humanity and wondering if he may end up making them too reliant on him.

See, these types of issues imho, I think would fit well with the character because it's not about issues concerning if he thinks he's good or bad or wanting to do the job, it's wondering if he is doing the job CORRECTLY at first, and imho, I think this would be a very realistic take on a modern day Superman without lowering the presence and integrity of his character.

I prefer a character like that, over an interpretation where's presented as God like in the sense where he has no issues, no internal problems, and immediately knows everything from the start.

Superman wasn't born a god; and the fact that he chose to become a hero, not because he was told to or forced to, but because he wanted to, makes him stand out the most compared to most heroes in my book. That's what makes him "Superman" for me; the fact that he rose above all of that in order to help people

RetrogradeOrbit 11-18-2011 06:25 AM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodrigo90 (Post 21879661)
A discussion how you want Superman to be written and handled. In what way do you want to see him progress throughout the movie?

I want to see the events which happen to him that makes him decide to be Humanity's protector. I want to see him make some mistakes along the way which he learns and grows from. And at the end of the film, I want to see him become the Superman we know and love.

maenalus 11-18-2011 02:50 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by herolee10 (Post 21883077)
If anything, I could see Superman in this film at the start being a little wary of going public (out in the open) where people can see him full front and center due to thinking that people may end up being very afraid of him due to his alien nature, thus chooses to save people quietly at the start, only to realize later on that by emerging and becoming a symbol of hope and realizing the impact that his reputation has made, that it'll be to the earth's best benefit if he created that person of Superman to represent all of that for the people.

Personally, I'm pretty bored with the whole hero dealing with public reaction angle. It's not a complete non-issue for them, but at the end of the day, they shouldn't really give much of a damn what people think of them. Spending a lot of time on the hero hand-wringing over social acceptance makes him look kind of lame. And if anything, Superman should be amused by, not introspective over, people being afraid of him.

herolee10 11-18-2011 03:09 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maenalus (Post 21886223)
Personally, I'm pretty bored with the whole hero dealing with public reaction angle. It's not a complete non-issue for them, but at the end of the day, they shouldn't really give much of a damn what people think of them. Spending a lot of time on the hero hand-wringing over social acceptance makes him look kind of lame. And if anything, Superman should be amused by, not introspective over, people being afraid of him.


Perhaps; but if people are afraid of Superman, then it could end up making the rescues more difficult since you could potentially have people who are so terrified in him that it makes it difficult for him to save them due to them not being entirely willing to put their lives in his hands to save.

hopefuldreamer 11-19-2011 07:42 AM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by herolee10 (Post 21883077)
As long as Superman isn't presented as some reluctant angst filled hero in this film with a set of morally gray views, then I think we should be good.

Superman, by the end of the film, should be presented as the hero that most heroes would want to either aspire to be like or to be respected by.

Granted, I'm not expecting nor wanting a perfect Superman, especially since this will be his early years, but imho, with a character such as superman, a writer or the person behind the creative scenes must always be careful in determining as to what they will give the character to struggle with internally and how they go about executing it.

Personally, I've never seen Superman who's the type to be reluctant towards saving people. He doesn't need to be pushed by tragedy or guilt to go out of his way and save someone in need.

If anything, I could see Superman in this film at the start being a little wary of going public (out in the open) where people can see him full front and center due to thinking that people may end up being very afraid of him due to his alien nature, thus chooses to save people quietly at the start, only to realize later on that by emerging and becoming a symbol of hope and realizing the impact that his reputation has made, that it'll be to the earth's best benefit if he created that person of Superman to represent all of that for the people.

Another dilemma I could see Superman having is wondering if the actions that he's taking are in fact the best ones for humanity and wondering if he may end up making them too reliant on him.

See, these types of issues imho, I think would fit well with the character because it's not about issues concerning if he thinks he's good or bad or wanting to do the job, it's wondering if he is doing the job CORRECTLY at first, and imho, I think this would be a very realistic take on a modern day Superman without lowering the presence and integrity of his character.

I prefer a character like that, over an interpretation where's presented as God like in the sense where he has no issues, no internal problems, and immediately knows everything from the start.

Superman wasn't born a god; and the fact that he chose to become a hero, not because he was told to or forced to, but because he wanted to, makes him stand out the most compared to most heroes in my book. That's what makes him "Superman" for me; the fact that he rose above all of that in order to help people

Great post, completely agreed. Especially the bolded part :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathlok (Post 21883287)
I want to see the events which happen to him that makes him decide to be Humanity's protector. I want to see him make some mistakes along the way which he learns and grows from. And at the end of the film, I want to see him become the Superman we know and love.

Seconded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maenalus (Post 21886223)
Personally, I'm pretty bored with the whole hero dealing with public reaction angle. It's not a complete non-issue for them, but at the end of the day, they shouldn't really give much of a damn what people think of them. Spending a lot of time on the hero hand-wringing over social acceptance makes him look kind of lame. And if anything, Superman should be amused by, not introspective over, people being afraid of him.

Why on earth would being feared by people amuse him?

I mean, I can see Zod or the Joker being amused by people's hatred and fear... but not Superman.

I don't see how it bothering him makes him lame... :huh:

maenalus 11-19-2011 11:30 AM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide (Post 21891519)
Why on earth would being feared by people amuse him?

I mean, I can see Zod or the Joker being amused by people's hatred and fear... but not Superman.

I don't see how it bothering him makes him lame... :huh:

He should be a clear enough thinker to recognize that they're justified in fearing any man with the power to enslave all of humanity in a few minutes; that such fear is inevitable and healthy. In due time they'll learn he's just a harmless teddy bear. That is, as long as you're not an evildoer.

hopefuldreamer 11-19-2011 12:13 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
1. How is any of what you said him being 'amused'?

2. The public doesn't go 'ahhhhh' and then 'awwww'... he's never considered a 'harmless teddy'... he's considered a hero, a symbol of hope and a great man...

Kurosawa 11-19-2011 03:34 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
The only people who Superman should be amused by them fearing him are criminals, bullies and those who prey on people who are weaker than they are. You're not supposed to be scared of Superman-he's the smiling hero, and everyone's friend.

maenalus 11-19-2011 04:16 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
He's wouldn't see even a little humor in it?

Kurosawa 11-19-2011 04:26 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maenalus (Post 21894251)
He's wouldn't see even a little humor in it?

Maybe at first but it would get old after a while.

maenalus 11-19-2011 05:03 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
At first was all I meant. If his origins are retold as the tired old "public doesn't like the hero" thing, which I don't want, I'd at least want Superman's attitude to such reaction to be to blow it off, and see the silliness of it. I'd certainly hate to see him sulking over it.

hopefuldreamer 11-19-2011 05:35 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Seriously... who the hell do you think Superman is?

VILLAINS find causing the fear of innocenct people amusing.

HEROES find causing the fear of innocent people disturbing.

That is not a hard concept to grasp, and no matter how 'tired' you are of that formula, it is simply basic recognition of what makes a person GOOD rather than EVIL.

So no... not even a little bit... not even at first.

Superman would NEVER find it amusing that people were afraid of him.

I mean, how would you even visualise that? People cowering in a corner after a display of strength, and then Superman laughing and saying 'Oh you silly humans'?

I swear, this forum never ceases to amaze me...

Kurosawa 11-19-2011 05:35 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maenalus (Post 21894757)
At first was all I meant. If his origins are retold as the tired old "public doesn't like the hero" thing, which I don't want, I'd at least want Superman's attitude to such reaction to be to blow it off, and see the silliness of it. I'd certainly hate to see him sulking over it.

Yeah, which is what they will do.

In the Golden Age when people flipped out over him he laughed it off.

maenalus 11-19-2011 06:10 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide (Post 21895095)
Seriously... who the hell do you think Superman is?

VILLAINS find causing the fear of innocenct people amusing.

HEROES find causing the fear of innocent people disturbing.

That is not a hard concept to grasp, and no matter how 'tired' you are of that formula, it is simply basic recognition of what makes a person GOOD rather than EVIL.

So no... not even a little bit... not even at first.

Superman would NEVER find it amusing that people were afraid of him.

Do think anyone with even a moderately dark sense of humor is evil?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide (Post 21895095)
I mean, how would you even visualise that? People cowering in a corner after a display of strength, and then Superman laughing and saying 'Oh you silly humans'?

I swear, this forum never ceases to amaze me...

No, I don't envision him saying that cowering innocents. But, maybe something more like walking up to them with a confident smile, helping them up and saying with a light chuckle: "Chillax eveyone, I'm a good guy" and then flying away.

Now let me guess how you'd have him respond "Oh God, what have I done?! They're afraid of me! I must go brood over the awful tragedy of it all!"

hopefuldreamer 11-19-2011 07:38 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maenalus (Post 21895429)
Do think anyone with even a moderately dark sense of humor is evil?

It's fine to have a dark sense of humour about things that don't matter... but not about things that really are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maenalus (Post 21895429)
No, I don't envision him saying that cowering innocents. But, maybe something more like walking up to them with a confident smile, helping them up and saying with a light chuckle: "Chillax eveyone, I'm a good guy" and then flying away.

Might work in a comedy film. Might work in a tv show from the 80s.

You know why?

Because in those settings, nothing is taken all that seriously.

But if your realistically looking at how he'd respond if he saved a bunch of people and they were terrified of him, and you DON'T think he'd take it seriously... well... I don't know what to say to that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by maenalus (Post 21895429)
Now let me guess how you'd have him respond "Oh God, what have I done?! They're afraid of me! I must go brood over the awful tragedy of it all!"

Guess again :whatever:

I'm not saying it should make him wanna cry, that he should see their fear and break down and start begging 'please, don't be afraid of me'...

He knows that it's going to happen, he knows people will be afraid of him. That's something he's been preparing for his whole life. So he can take it. He knows that he has to earn their trust, and that hopefully, he CAN convince them that he's there to help.

So i'm not saying it should surprise him, or even upset him in a visible way...

I'm just saying he wouldn't find it funny :dry:

Kurosawa 11-19-2011 08:53 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide (Post 21896047)
It's fine to have a dark sense of humour about things that don't matter... but not about things that really are.



Might work in a comedy film. Might work in a tv show from the 80s.

You know why?

Because in those settings, nothing is taken all that seriously.

But if your realistically looking at how he'd respond if he saved a bunch of people and they were terrified of him, and you DON'T think he'd take it seriously... well... I don't know what to say to that...



Guess again :whatever:

I'm not saying it should make him wanna cry, that he should see their fear and break down and start begging 'please, don't be afraid of me'...

He knows that it's going to happen, he knows people will be afraid of him. That's something he's been preparing for his whole life. So he can take it. He knows that he has to earn their trust, and that hopefully, he CAN convince them that he's there to help.

So i'm not saying it should surprise him, or even upset him in a visible way...

I'm just saying he wouldn't find it funny :dry:

No, he wouldn't find it funny-he might use humor to break the ice with people a little bit I guess.

maenalus 11-19-2011 10:51 PM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide (Post 21896047)
It's fine to have a dark sense of humour about things that don't matter... but not about things that really are.



Might work in a comedy film. Might work in a tv show from the 80s.

You know why?

Because in those settings, nothing is taken all that seriously.

But if your realistically looking at how he'd respond if he saved a bunch of people and they were terrified of him, and you DON'T think he'd take it seriously... well... I don't know what to say to that...

It would not have to be a comedy. But a Superman movie should have plenty of light humor in it. If it doesn't, it's being done wrong.

And I don't know what you mean by looking at how he'd respond "realistically".

Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide (Post 21896047)
Guess again :whatever:

I'm not saying it should make him wanna cry, that he should see their fear and break down and start begging 'please, don't be afraid of me'...

He knows that it's going to happen, he knows people will be afraid of him. That's something he's been preparing for his whole life. So he can take it. He knows that he has to earn their trust, and that hopefully, he CAN convince them that he's there to help.

So i'm not saying it should surprise him, or even upset him in a visible way...

I'm just saying he wouldn't find it funny :dry:

All right, fair enough. I just don't see what the big deal is. It's a normal human reaction to find pleasure in both scaring others and being scared yourself. We just got done celebrating a holiday based on exactly that. I don't see what Superman gains by not sharing that common human trait.

Kurosawa 11-20-2011 01:24 AM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maenalus (Post 21897163)
It would not have to be a comedy. But a Superman movie should have plenty of light humor in it. If it doesn't, it's being done wrong.

And I don't know what you mean by looking at how he'd respond "realistically".



All right, fair enough. I just don't see what the big deal is. It's a normal human reaction to find pleasure in both scaring others and being scared yourself. We just got done celebrating a holiday based on exactly that. I don't see what Superman gains by not sharing that common human trait.

Well, there's a difference in a fun Halloween scare and the public actually having deeply seated fears of Superman. I think he wouldn't just laugh it off if most people were legit scared of him. Now criminals, that's a different thing.
But even Batman isn't out to scare the innocent, only the guilty:

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lf...kqbso1_500.jpg

hopefuldreamer 11-20-2011 05:36 AM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maenalus (Post 21897163)
It would not have to be a comedy. But a Superman movie should have plenty of light humor in it. If it doesn't, it's being done wrong.

And I don't know what you mean by looking at how he'd respond "realistically".

Not THAT much light humour. Not in scenes were it's inappropriate.

Humour in a Superman film should be subtle, and in the right places only. Otherwise your just making him into a characature. A Superhero no one can take seriously.

And why don't you understand 'realistically'...

It means looking at how any man who was raised on earth would actually respond when his lifetime of fears came true, and people regarded him with fear, looking at him like he's a freak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maenalus (Post 21897163)
All right, fair enough. I just don't see what the big deal is. It's a normal human reaction to find pleasure in both scaring others and being scared yourself. We just got done celebrating a holiday based on exactly that. I don't see what Superman gains by not sharing that common human trait.

You cannot compare apples to oranges here.

While it might be normal for most humans to find putting on a wig and going 'boo' funny, it is NOT a normal human reaction to take pleasure in terrifying people by exhibiting superhuman powers not of this earth.

We're not talking about Superman showing up and people having a 'bit of a fright', maybe jumping a bit, Superman chortling and then them all having a laugh when they realise how silly it was to have been startled. :doh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurosawa (Post 21897821)
Well, there's a difference in a fun Halloween scare and the public actually having deeply seated fears of Superman. I think he wouldn't just laugh it off if most people were legit scared of him. Now criminals, that's a different thing.
But even Batman isn't out to scare the innocent, only the guilty:

Exactly :up:

MOS 11-20-2011 07:11 AM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurosawa (Post 21897821)
Well, there's a difference in a fun Halloween scare and the public actually having deeply seated fears of Superman. I think he wouldn't just laugh it off if most people were legit scared of him. Now criminals, that's a different thing.
But even Batman isn't out to scare the innocent, only the guilty:

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lf...kqbso1_500.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide (Post 21898195)
Not THAT much light humour. Not in scenes were it's inappropriate.

Humour in a Superman film should be subtle, and in the right places only. Otherwise your just making him into a characature. A Superhero no one can take seriously.

And why don't you understand 'realistically'...

It means looking at how any man who was raised on earth would actually respond when his lifetime of fears came true, and people regarded him with fear, looking at him like he's a freak.



You cannot compare apples to oranges here.

While it might be normal for most humans to find putting on a wig and going 'boo' funny, it is NOT a normal human reaction to take pleasure in terrifying people by exhibiting superhuman powers not of this earth.

We're not talking about Superman showing up and people having a 'bit of a fright', maybe jumping a bit, Superman chortling and then them all having a laugh when they realise how silly it was to have been startled. :doh:



Exactly :up:

Agreed completely. Superman is not Wolverine or Hulk, as in, he likes it if people are scared of him and his power. He's more like a police officer, a firefighter or a doctor.He's only there to help, even as Clark Kent, spreading the truth to the people.

maenalus 11-20-2011 10:24 AM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurosawa (Post 21897821)
Well, there's a difference in a fun Halloween scare and the public actually having deeply seated fears of Superman. I think he wouldn't just laugh it off if most people were legit scared of him. Now criminals, that's a different thing.
But even Batman isn't out to scare the innocent, only the guilty:

I pointed to Halloween just to remind hopeful that normal people enjoy the sensation of fear, and that that doesn't make them evil in the vein of Zod and the Joker.

I don't want Superman deliberately scaring innocent people (except on Halloween, natch) or cultivating fear around his identity. Just that, if he happens to frighten someone, he should be able to see the inherent humorous aspect in such an awkward situation and maybe chuckle a little to himself as he assures them he ain't so bad once you get to know him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide (Post 21898195)
Not THAT much light humour. Not in scenes were it's inappropriate.

Humour in a Superman film should be subtle, and in the right places only. Otherwise your just making him into a characature. A Superhero no one can take seriously.

There's room for subtle and unsubtle humor in Superman's world. Above all else he's suppose to be fun escapist fantasy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide (Post 21898195)
And why don't you understand 'realistically'...

It means looking at how any man who was raised on earth would actually respond when his lifetime of fears came true, and people regarded him with fear, looking at him like he's a freak.

Yucky! You want that to be Superman's personality and thought process? To be afraid of what people will think of him? And to have that be a big "thing" they spend a lot of time on? I thought you just said above that you don't want him bent out of shape over people being frightened. That kind of navel-gazing Smallville crap is my worst fear for this movie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide (Post 21898195)
You cannot compare apples to oranges here.

While it might be normal for most humans to find putting on a wig and going 'boo' funny, it is NOT a normal human reaction to take pleasure in terrifying people by exhibiting superhuman powers not of this earth.

We're not talking about Superman showing up and people having a 'bit of a fright', maybe jumping a bit, Superman chortling and then them all having a laugh when they realise how silly it was to have been startled. :doh:

Actually, a few laughs over a "boo" is closer to what I'm talking about than the trite, full-blown public panic and hatred and resentment and lifetime fears realized you're apparently envisioning.

hopefuldreamer 11-20-2011 11:24 AM

Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1
 
I have to duck out of this conversation... it's driving me insane, and mainly just makes me want to repeat the word 'Seriously' in a high pitched tone over and over again... which is not healthy.

I'll just leave it with this:

I find your opinion completely illogical, and it seems to show an COMPLETELY different view of Superman as a character to the one I have.

However, I feel safe in the knowledge that this movie will not have Superman laughing in the face of human fear.

So feel free to have your opinion. :)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com, A property of CraveOnline, a divison of AtomicOnline, LLC © 2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.