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-   -   Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops" (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=390017)

Two-Face 07-26-2012 11:49 AM

Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Now all I know is Dent killed Wuetz a cop at the bar but who was other cop?

People Dent killed:

Weutz, Maroni, his bodyguard and his driver? Who else did he kill? Ramirez didn't die. Does Gordon mean the cops were outside his house?

Mandalore464 07-26-2012 01:33 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Edit : Deleted

henzINNIT 07-26-2012 05:54 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
It's a big old plot hole. Massively frustrating to me because it could have so easily been more ambiguous. The number doesn't make sense because surely the cops at the hospital could be attributed to the Joker (seeing as he, you know, did it).

Anno_Domini 07-26-2012 08:20 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Could be a plot hole, but not really.

For as we know, the other cop wasn't around Dent's room while there is at least one cop in Dent's room that is dead.

Mister H. 07-28-2012 02:27 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Exactly. Weurtz and the officer nurse Joker shot were the two dead cops. Then Maroni, his driver, and Dent himself.

CraigJG 07-30-2012 05:16 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
I noticed this too, probably goes un-noticed by people who havent seen it ten of more times lol

Drizzle 08-02-2012 10:45 AM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
I've just taken it to be these people:

1. Cop at Hospital
2. Wuertz
3. Maroni's driver
4. Maroni
5. Dent

Two-Face 08-02-2012 03:23 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drizzle (Post 24046517)
I've just taken it to be these people:

1. Cop at Hospital
2. Wuertz
3. Maroni's driver
4. Maroni
5. Dent

Well I didn't count Dent but yeah that makes sense.

Team Andino 10-04-2012 04:49 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Two-Face (Post 24048713)
Well I didn't count Dent but yeah that makes sense.

While it's not always reliable the viral marketing for TDKR had that wanted poster where it blamed Batman for 6 deaths, including Dent in the original 5 that Gordon mentioned at the end of TDK. I can come up with an answer with a few ideas, but I really wished this would of been addressed in TDKR. Years of me wondering let to no definitive answer. Nolan even made mention that this would be answered one day.

henzINNIT 10-04-2012 05:15 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
There were 3 in Maroni's entourage. The driver and Maroni were killed in the crash, but one silently disappears before he gets into the car (replaced by Dent himself). He could easily be the 3rd non-cop victim.

The cops are the real trouble though. One is obviously Wuertz. Two disappeared (likely died) at the hospital. For those who say that the cop Joker shot was the other victim, what about the other cop: the one the Joker's victim was looking for when he is killed? That officer gets no response from his partner and rushes into Dent's room to investigate.

Team Andino 10-04-2012 05:43 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Perhaps Gordon doesn't even know about Wuertz since it was his "day off". Gordon though for sure knows that the cops that are suppose to be guarding him in the hospital, maybe even the cops guarding his family since he probably didn't know Ramierez had done what she did. It's a subject that I've discussed with friends for years hoping to be cleared up in TDKR. Alas it's up to our imaginations to know the truth.

Midnight Black 10-04-2012 07:16 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Yeah this is confusing. Since it is never really shown that Gordon knows the two cops in the hospital were killed by Dent or the Joker or that Wuertz was killed by Dent given the timeline I assumed he was referring to the cop that was flying the helicopter and the commissioner. But if not the commissioner then the cop flying the copter, a beat cop driving a car, or Wuertz...2 out of those 3.

Team Andino 10-05-2012 02:04 AM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Black (Post 24418403)
Yeah this is confusing. Since it is never really shown that Gordon knows the two cops in the hospital were killed by Dent or the Joker or that Wuertz was killed by Dent given the timeline I assumed he was referring to the cop that was flying the helicopter and the commissioner. But if not the commissioner then the cop flying the copter, a beat cop driving a car, or Wuertz...2 out of those 3.

The cop from the chopper and Commisioner Loeb were killed by the Joker or traps set by the Joker, neither of which had anything to do with Dent let alone it being anywhere near the time frame of when Dent had gone mad by then.

Midnight Black 10-05-2012 11:09 AM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
So if Wuertz then who would the other cop be? The two hospital cops could be said to be killed by the explosion?

Team Andino 10-05-2012 04:31 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Black (Post 24421129)
So if Wuertz then who would the other cop be? The two hospital cops could be said to be killed by the explosion?

We can only make some educated guesses on who the two cops were, it's possible that one was Wuertz and the other was the cop Joker shot in the hospital. Assuming the other cop wasn't killed and showed up alive. Either way there are quite a few possibilities with the given circumstances.

Spiderine 10-06-2012 01:05 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Why would Commissioner Gordon know that he killed Maroni, the bodyguard, and his driver in the first place with all the chaos going on with Joker? Can somebody explain that? He says that right after Dent falls to his death. No one would have known what happened immediately to Maroni, especially Gordon.

Maybe I missed something here.

the last son 10-06-2012 03:24 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderine (Post 24425639)
Why would Commissioner Gordon know that he killed Maroni, the bodyguard, and his driver in the first place with all the chaos going on with Joker? Can somebody explain that? He says that right after Dent falls to his death. No one would have known what happened immediately to Maroni, especially Gordon.

Maybe I missed something here.

good question

Baramos 10-11-2012 10:29 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Another theory is he thought Ramirez was dead at that point, whereas she was just unconscious and therefore missing. Dent was referring to Wuertz and Ramirez both as Gordon's "deal with the devil", thus Gordon probably assumed he had killed them both.

So Maroni's bodyguard, Maroni's driver, and Maroni, added to Wuertz and Ramirez for the two cops, solves the equation. If Ramirez actually died from getting pistol whipped it might explain the newspaper article.

I dunno. I guess it's a plot hole, really. Maybe there was a scene in the script that explained it, but I've read the script a couple of times and I can't remember anything that would solve this mystery, unlike the mystery of what happened after Batman jumped out the Penthouse window after Rache, for instance, which IS covered in the script, but not actually in the movie. This doesn't seem to be explained in the script.

Brother Jack 10-11-2012 10:55 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderine (Post 24425639)
Why would Commissioner Gordon know that he killed Maroni, the bodyguard, and his driver in the first place with all the chaos going on with Joker? Can somebody explain that? He says that right after Dent falls to his death. No one would have known what happened immediately to Maroni, especially Gordon.

Maybe I missed something here.

I've always thought that he must have heard that Maroni and his driver were involved in a car crash and the driver had been shot. Considering Maroni was the biggest crime boss in Gotham at the time it makes sense for that kind of news to make its way to Gordon even if it was in a very short period of time. It's the same with Wuertz and Ramirez (or whoever was the second cop), Gordon would have been told by someone that Wuertz had been killed and that Ramirez had gone missing. Considering Dent had a vendetta against those particular cops and Maroni it would be easy to surmise that he killed them.

Anno_Domini 10-14-2012 02:01 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderine (Post 24425639)
Why would Commissioner Gordon know that he killed Maroni, the bodyguard, and his driver in the first place with all the chaos going on with Joker? Can somebody explain that? He says that right after Dent falls to his death. No one would have known what happened immediately to Maroni, especially Gordon.

Maybe I missed something here.

He's the commissioner. If he doesn't know what's going on during the day when the siege of the building was going to be at night, then he shouldn't be the commissioner.

Dr. 10-15-2012 08:52 AM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini (Post 23995247)
Could be a plot hole, but not really.

For as we know, the other cop wasn't around Dent's room while there is at least one cop in Dent's room that is dead.

It probably falls into the “continuity error” category - a repeated detail that isn’t depicted consistently. A “plot hole” (imo) is a narrative mistake/omission that interferes with internal logic. E.g.: “How could the hero start his car when he was shown losing his keys in the previous scene?” (Well, perhaps a sloppy writer didn’t notice the problem; or perhaps a sloppy editor deleted the explanation. In any case, it’s a plot hole.)

But in TDK, nothing particularly crucial to the narrative depends on Gordon getting the body count exactly right. So at worst… a continuity error.

hellblazer103 10-20-2012 03:05 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
rewatching it the other day made me think the exact same thing. all i could come up with was maybe he was talking about either the bartender or the 2nd bodyguard of maroni's that "disappeared" for the 5th person.

Midnight Black 10-20-2012 07:48 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Or perhaps he was just talking in general about all those that have died and how things had escalated....not necessarily blaming Harvey for what he had done or what he thought he did, but everything that had transpired.

Baramos 10-22-2012 09:35 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
Had a thought: has anyone ever included Dent in this equation? Gordon is mostly talking about how it's hard to sweep what had happened under the rug. Dent also is killed in the whole situation. The reason why is part of the lie in TDKR.

Anno_Domini 10-23-2012 12:11 PM

Re: Gordon: "Five people dead two of them cops"
 
They're talking about the people Dent killed though.


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