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GregComicFan 12-07-2012 11:29 AM

The ferry should have blown up
 
I'm not sure if this deserves its own thread or if it should be combined with the "Miranda Tate" thread. Moderators move at your discretion.

I watched TDKR again (for the umpteenth time)... and I was thinking... maybe in TDK the "innocent" people on the ferry should have blown up the "criminal" ferry at the end of the film.

It wouldn't change TDK's ending much. Batman would watch as the innocent people's ferry survives and the criminal ferry explodes. Joker laughs and tells Batman "hahaha! your precious Gotham citizens just killed all the criminals! hahaha!"... Joker is distracted, Batman throws him off the building, then catches him, and the Joker's end speech stays the same (except now he mentions that perhaps Batman is the ONLY righteous person in Gotham, since the citizens just showed they are not so righteous as he is)... and TDK ends the same way.

BUT!

Now, when Miranda/Talia stabs Batman at the end of TDKR and Batman says Ras was going to kill innocent people and Talia responds "Innocent is a strong word" to use to describe Gotham's citizens... it would actually add a huge amount of depth and some sort of credibility to Talia/Bane's goal since the Joker had proven in the previous film that Gotham citizens are not all that great. They DO kill in order to survive. It would actually put Batman in a sort of moral compromise because Talia would have a point and Batman would still be out defending Gotham citizens believing there is good in them (just like he believes there is good in Catwoman, and others)

Additionally, all the complaints about "not seeing a citizen POV" in TDKR would not be as necessary, because if the innocent ferry blew up the criminal ferry in TDK, audiences would feel/know the citizens of Gotham are not great people and their POV is not needed so much...

Additionally, in TDKR, when the citizens start looting/killing/etc the "rich" of Gotham, it would re-enforce the idea that "innocent" people in Gotham are a bunch of lunatics...

The ferry blowing up in TDK would actually improve TDKR's ending.

Any thoughts?

The Eradicator 12-07-2012 01:16 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
I completely agree with you. I think that the ferry scene was the most unrealistic part of TDK, in the sense that it is highly unlikely that what happened in the film would have happened in real life in a similar scenario. There actually have been incidents in history that show the exact opposite of what TDK ended up doing in that scene.

Not only would I have had the "innocents" blow up the criminals, but then I would have had the Joker blow up the ferry with the criminals right after that. The look on Batman's face in such a situation would have been priceless.

But at the end of the day, all of this would have been way too dark. If they had gone that route, TDK probably would have been one of the most depressing, nihilistic films ever made and would've caused a lot of controversy.

Just_Human 12-07-2012 01:27 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Not everybody in Gotham is lunatic .....

The Eradicator 12-07-2012 01:30 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_Human (Post 24806895)
Not everybody in Gotham is lunatic .....

All it would have taken was one person in the ferry.

BatLobsterRises 12-07-2012 01:30 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Yeah way too dark. The film was dark enough with Dent's fall. It'd be taking out the one ray of light in the whole film.

hammerhedd11 12-07-2012 02:27 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
You miss the whole point of that scene.

BatmanBeyond 12-07-2012 03:16 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
While I agree with the title of this post, I think the reasoning for not blowing up the ferries is two-fold. First of all, you have to take into account one of the main ideas in TDK, that Batman is essentially bad for Gotham. The psychopath who terrorises Gotham and is constantly one step ahead of the authorities is the direct result of his influence. Then you have the guys in hockey-pads who twist Bruce's reasoning for creating a symbol to inspire people (much like some of the posters here twist Bruce's TDKR line, "Batman could be anybody"). And then, of course, Dent's fall is practically his fault as well, considering the choice he made following the interrogation of the Joker. TDK is such a thorough deconstruction of the idea of Batman it's not even funny.

But behind all that negativism is the ferry scene and what it says about the people of Gotham. It is essentially a vindication of Bruce's objective, the one he details in BB (during that plane scene Nolan's been mentioning in his last interviews). It's the ferry scene that sells the fact that the people of Gotham are indeed worth saving (it's the main reason I can let the absence of the citizens' POV in TDKR slide) and that Batman's crusade is not in vain after all. It's also an indicator of Bruce's faith in people (the one Rachel hopes he won't lose), the one that comes back to haunt him with Talia, but also the one that saves him from being shot in the face by Bane.

Like BatLobster says, TDK is already dark as it is. The ferry scene is one of the few rays of hope within the movie and that's why I think it's essential. Another one, IMO at least, is the fact that Batman does prove himself to be the better man in the end (in comparison to Dent), because he doesn't break under the pressure of all the **** he's going through in the movie. But this last point is perhaps more debatable. As for the original point of the topic, no, I definitely do not believe the ferries wouldn't have blown each other up in real life. But I think that's the point Nolan and Co. tried to get across...if you don't take a chance and put your faith in people, good things will not happen and your perspective will remain bleak. TDK is paradoxical in this sense: it's really cynical when you think about it, but at the same time it has a very subtle, underlying note of optimism. (it's one of the reasons I think it's the best in the trilogy)

It's TDKR that shows us that this cynicism when it comes to people will only lead towards a single path: death. Ra's, Bane and Talia are essentially the antithesis of Bruce when it comes to having faith in people. Their extreme beliefs drive them to attack Gotham and attempt to destroy it, even though there are good people in the city (as TDK establishes). This is the staple of these characters, their rigid and staunch faith in their beliefs. This contrasts greatly with Bruce's underlying optimism and faith in people. It's why I think they work well as villains, because they tell us something about our protagonist as well. Batman villains are meant to be dark mirrors of Batman himself, after all.

OcStat 12-07-2012 03:17 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hammerhedd11 (Post 24807265)
You miss the whole point of that scene.

Ding ding ding!

Gotham is not a hopeless place, despite what the Joker tried to do, and despite what Ra's thought.

GregComicFan 12-07-2012 03:36 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Ah, good points from all.

I was just thinking that if the ferries had blown each other up in TDK, then Miranda/Talia's line in TDKR about there not being innocent people in Gotham would have been a lot more potent

BatLobsterRises 12-07-2012 03:43 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Great post BatmanBeyond. Bravo.

BatmanBeyond 12-07-2012 03:45 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GregComicFan (Post 24807571)
Ah, good points from all.

I was just thinking that if the ferries had blown each other up in TDK, then Miranda/Talia's line in TDKR about there not being innocent people in Gotham would have been a lot more potent

Nah, the Al Ghuls and Bane really hate people because life gave them a bad hand. Bruce is their opposite, even though he went through something similar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 24807603)
Great post BatmanBeyond. Bravo.

Thank you. :woot:

The Joker 12-07-2012 03:56 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
I love the ferry scene and how it played out. Everyone on the citizens' ferry was saying they should push the button. But who had the guts to push it? None of them. There wasn't just criminals on that other boat. There was Cops, prison officers, and the ferry crew, too. Nobody wants to live with that kind of slaughter on their conscience. As for the convicts, one noble convict took the decision out of their hands.

My favorite part was how Batman was the only one who had any faith in the people to not kill each other. Joker was certain they'd do it. Gordon thought they would. It was Nolan's version of Joker's sick experiment on Jim Gordon in The Killing Joke, where he tried to push him over the edge to prove anyone was as bad as he was when push came to shove.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...erTKJTDK-1.jpg

Batman essentially says the same thing to Joker when the ferries don't blow up; "What were you trying to prove, that deep down everyone's as ugly as you? You're alone".

Loved it. It made Batman's sacrifice for them at the end of TDK more potent, because he knew Gotham's people were still ready to believe in good. He didn't want them to lose that by losing faith in Harvey Dent and all the good work he'd done to help their city.

Tequilla 12-07-2012 04:37 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
It shouldn't. Its thematic implications are clear.

The scene is a mess , bloated , even if it aint that long. I would call it the worst section of any Nolan movie. Its just a slug in such a kinetic movie. Great idea but im not fond of the execution

Looking back at it , its funny how they react exactly the same way like they did in Rises . In complete apathy. They just follow the rules and simply cannot react. Until the prisoner decides to throw it away "Give it to me, and I'll do what you shoulda did ten minutes ago".

Its cool to see the same sort of apathy in a bigger threat and grander scale in Rises.

TheDevilIsMe 12-07-2012 04:37 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
I agree with the OP - never thought of it that way.

It would've given Talia/Bane some credibility with their plan. And -

Since Gotham was shown to be a 'Dog Eat Dog' type population with the ferry scene if they had blown up - Batman's reclusive 8 year absence would've had more depth too - had the ferries blown up he could've gotten terribly disenchanted with defending citizens who would blow eachother up if worse came to worse.

BatLobsterRises 12-07-2012 04:51 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tequilla (Post 24807843)
It shouldn't. Its thematic implications are clear.

The scene is a mess , bloated , even if it aint that long. I would call it the worst section of any Nolan movie. Its just a slug in such a kinetic movie. Great idea but im not fond of the execution

Looking back at it , its funny how they react exactly the same way like they did in Rises . In complete apathy. They just follow the rules and simply cannot react. Until the prisoner decides to throw it away "Give it to me, and I'll do what you shoulda did ten minutes ago".

Its cool to see the same sort of apathy in a bigger threat and grander scale in Rises.

Good points about apathy, seeing as Bruce wanting to "shake people out of apathy" (there's that plane scene again :yay:). Although I do dig the ferries scene.

But yeah, I think robbing TDK of it's one moment of optimisim would have been a fatal error. Batman deserved the vindication there, and the audience deserved some relief.

I don't see Talia and Bane being the types of people who are waiting around on the results of a pyschopath's "social experiment" to adjust their own assessment of Gotham. They're very absolute and set in their ways, just like Ra's was. Talia's line about "innocent" being a strong word to throw around Gotham still had enough resonance, considering the events of TDKR.

Fudgie 12-07-2012 04:59 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GregComicFan (Post 24807571)
Ah, good points from all.

I was just thinking that if the ferries had blown each other up in TDK, then Miranda/Talia's line in TDKR about there not being innocent people in Gotham would have been a lot more potent

Or make 'em know about the Dent lie from the start and give 'em an actual valid excuse to be there.

the5timechamp 12-08-2012 12:05 AM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
It would work in the sense that like in parts of "monsters and madmen"..that batman doesnt always save the day, and that many will die despite his best efforts. But with Rachel and Harvey already lost, the loss of the Ferry would have been too much..

Besides I am of the belief that the Joker in his genius did give people the detonator to their own bomb..

Thundercrack85 12-08-2012 12:10 AM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
I don't disagree that it's unrealistic. But it would sort of ruin the whole message of human goodness and what not :barf:

In real life both boats would have probably blown up at the same time.

Doc Samson 12-08-2012 01:16 AM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond (Post 24807489)
While I agree with the title of this post, I think the reasoning for not blowing up the ferries is two-fold. First of all, you have to take into account one of the main ideas in TDK, that Batman is essentially bad for Gotham. The psychopath who terrorises Gotham and is constantly one step ahead of the authorities is the direct result of his influence. Then you have the guys in hockey-pads who twist Bruce's reasoning for creating a symbol to inspire people (much like some of the posters here twist Bruce's TDKR line, "Batman could be anybody"). And then, of course, Dent's fall is practically his fault as well, considering the choice he made following the interrogation of the Joker. TDK is such a thorough deconstruction of the idea of Batman it's not even funny.

But behind all that negativism is the ferry scene and what it says about the people of Gotham. It is essentially a vindication of Bruce's objective, the one he details in BB (during that plane scene Nolan's been mentioning in his last interviews). It's the ferry scene that sells the fact that the people of Gotham are indeed worth saving (it's the main reason I can let the absence of the citizens' POV in TDKR slide) and that Batman's crusade is not in vain after all. It's also an indicator of Bruce's faith in people (the one Rachel hopes he won't lose), the one that comes back to haunt him with Talia, but also the one that saves him from being shot in the face by Bane.

Like BatLobster says, TDK is already dark as it is. The ferry scene is one of the few rays of hope within the movie and that's why I think it's essential. Another one, IMO at least, is the fact that Batman does prove himself to be the better man in the end (in comparison to Dent), because he doesn't break under the pressure of all the **** he's going through in the movie. But this last point is perhaps more debatable. As for the original point of the topic, no, I definitely do not believe the ferries wouldn't have blown each other up in real life. But I think that's the point Nolan and Co. tried to get across...if you don't take a chance and put your faith in people, good things will not happen and your perspective will remain bleak. TDK is paradoxical in this sense: it's really cynical when you think about it, but at the same time it has a very subtle, underlying note of optimism. (it's one of the reasons I think it's the best in the trilogy)

It's TDKR that shows us that this cynicism when it comes to people will only lead towards a single path: death. Ra's, Bane and Talia are essentially the antithesis of Bruce when it comes to having faith in people. Their extreme beliefs drive them to attack Gotham and attempt to destroy it, even though there are good people in the city (as TDK establishes). This is the staple of these characters, their rigid and staunch faith in their beliefs. This contrasts greatly with Bruce's underlying optimism and faith in people. It's why I think they work well as villains, because they tell us something about our protagonist as well. Batman villains are meant to be dark mirrors of Batman himself, after all.

One of the best posts I've read in a long time. Agree 110% with everything http://forums.superherohype.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker (Post 24807641)
I Loved it. It made Batman's sacrifice for them at the end of TDK more potent, because he knew Gotham's people were still ready to believe in good. He didn't want them to lose that by losing faith in Harvey Dent and all the good work he'd done to help their city.

Precisely. Part of the reason TDK ending gives me such goosebumps (well all three endings do, but especially that one) is because through all that, Batman still has to step up and be the scapegoat, just to keep that faith that the ferries showed him intact.

That whole movie's main theme to me is about faith, even more than escalation, terrorism or anything else. The sacrifice, doing what's not necessarily popular in order to achieve a greater goal, that's what Batman is. What he stands for, what makes him so great. The one man in Gotham who literally has it all, has nothing without the hope of his city. Powerful **** my friends...

Victarion 12-08-2012 01:21 AM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 24807929)
Good points about apathy, seeing as Bruce wanting to "shake people out of apathy" (there's that plane scene again :yay:). Although I do dig the ferries scene.

But yeah, I think robbing TDK of it's one moment of optimisim would have been a fatal error. Batman deserved the vindication there, and the audience deserved some relief.

I don't see Talia and Bane being the types of people who are waiting around on the results of a pyschopath's "social experiment" to adjust their own assessment of Gotham. They're very absolute and set in their ways, just like Ra's was. Talia's line about "innocent" being a strong word to throw around Gotham still had enough resonance, considering the events of TDKR.

Very much so, especially since none of the lower class were forced to do anything. Bane simply presented them with the choice. You reap what you sow and all that.

Brain Damage 12-08-2012 06:16 AM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker (Post 24807641)
I love the ferry scene and how it played out. Everyone on the citizens' ferry was saying they should push the button. But who had the guts to push it? None of them. There wasn't just criminals on that other boat. There was Cops, prison officers, and the ferry crew, too. Nobody wants to live with that kind of slaughter on their conscience. As for the convicts, one noble convict took the decision out of their hands.

My favorite part was how Batman was the only one who had any faith in the people to not kill each other. Joker was certain they'd do it. Gordon thought they would. It was Nolan's version of Joker's sick experiment on Jim Gordon in The Killing Joke, where he tried to push him over the edge to prove anyone was as bad as he was when push came to shove.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...erTKJTDK-1.jpg

Batman essentially says the same thing to Joker when the ferries don't blow up; "What were you trying to prove, that deep down everyone's as ugly as you? You're alone".

Loved it. It made Batman's sacrifice for them at the end of TDK more potent, because he knew Gotham's people were still ready to believe in good. He didn't want them to lose that by losing faith in Harvey Dent and all the good work he'd done to help their city.

Always think about this during that scene :up:

Well said.

BatmanBeyond 12-08-2012 07:52 AM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker (Post 24807641)
I love the ferry scene and how it played out. Everyone on the citizens' ferry was saying they should push the button. But who had the guts to push it? None of them. There wasn't just criminals on that other boat. There was Cops, prison officers, and the ferry crew, too. Nobody wants to live with that kind of slaughter on their conscience. As for the convicts, one noble convict took the decision out of their hands.

My favorite part was how Batman was the only one who had any faith in the people to not kill each other. Joker was certain they'd do it. Gordon thought they would. It was Nolan's version of Joker's sick experiment on Jim Gordon in The Killing Joke, where he tried to push him over the edge to prove anyone was as bad as he was when push came to shove.

Mine as well. "He's the hero Gotham deserves", after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Samson (Post 24810231)
One of the best posts I've read in a long time. Agree 110% with everything

Thanks for the kind words. :yay:

Ant-LOX 12-08-2012 02:33 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
I disagree, TDK needed that ending, Batman needed some kind of victory during that movie.

As for TDKR, I think the Orphans, Cops and even Selina make up a good amount of the civilian point of view in the film.

DACrowe 12-08-2012 02:38 PM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
I disagree with the ferry blowing up. The scene is about what most serves The Dark Knight not what serves its sequel four years later that, set in the story, is eight years later.

In TDK, Batman needed to be vindicated just once against The Joker. Especially because Joker was about to make his point anyway when Gotham's White Knight Harvey Dent caved under tragedy and became a vengeful killer. The Joker already has three people trying to kill Reese and Harvey to his credit, Batman needed a moment where he could rub the Joker's nose in the fact that not everyone is like him and the world isn't as simple as the Joker espouses it to be.

I do not think a flawless movie like TDK should have changed to serve a throwaway line in TDKR. Just my opinion.

BatmanBeyond 12-09-2012 06:25 AM

Re: The ferry should have blown up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DACrowe (Post 24812325)
I disagree with the ferry blowing up. The scene is about what most serves The Dark Knight not what serves its sequel four years later that, set in the story, is eight years later.

In TDK, Batman needed to be vindicated just once against The Joker. Especially because Joker was about to make his point anyway when Gotham's White Knight Harvey Dent caved under tragedy and became a vengeful killer. The Joker already has three people trying to kill Reese and Harvey to his credit, Batman needed a moment where he could rub the Joker's nose in the fact that not everyone is like him and the world isn't as simple as the Joker espouses it to be.

I do not think a flawless movie like TDK should have changed to serve a throwaway line in TDKR. Just my opinion.

This. It would've been irrelevant anyway. Talia is an incurable loon.


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