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-   -   Contrasts between Bane and Ra's (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=450355)

MAKAVELI25 12-17-2012 09:59 PM

Contrasts between Bane and Ra's
 
Leadership style, mannerisms, philosophies. I've read a couple of posts saying that Bane was just a recycled Ra's, I've even claimed so myself. To those who disagree, here is where we can compare and contrast them both as LOS leaders and individual characters

Victarion 12-17-2012 10:38 PM

Re: Contrasts between Bane and Ra's
 
Ra's was sincere at the League's mission: maintaining balance through burning out corruption. His relationship to Bane is that of a savior to a victim. Similar to Bane's relationship to young Talia. We know Ra's threw Bane out because he reminded Ra's of the hell hole where his wife was killed.

Everything Bane presents us in the film indicates that Talia allowed him to take leadership of the League of Shadows so long as she could complete Ra's work. Recall Bane's "I am the League of Shadows." line. Also from the first Bane vs Batman fight, recall Bane's dialogue with Bruce about betraying the League. Now, look at each character's situation. They are remarkably similar. Both were rescued by Ra's. Both were given training. Only Bruce was chosen as Ra's successor. Bane was cast out by Ra's.

Bane's apparent disgust at Bruce throwing away the position he was offered by Ra's, taken with the aforementioned dialogue from the sewer fight indicate that Bane simply wanted to prove himself the better man than Bruce. The worthy successor, if you will. This is furthered when Bane uses Gordon's speech to set himself up as a symbol for those oppressed by the Dent Act (also by giving them leave to take back their city, giving its citizens what was rightfully theirs); its very much like Batman setting himself up as a symbol for those oppressed by the mob's grip on Gotham prior to and during Batman Begins.

Bane shared the jacket-grip mannerism with Ra's. Recall that Ra's plan involved spreading fear gas throughout Gotham, leaving the drugged citizens to tear their city down. Bane never gassed the citizens. Bane never forced them to rise up against the others in the city they believed to be their oppressors. He simply presented them with the means to do so. Bane allowed Gotham to show the world how depraved it could be*; the citizens and freed prisoners did so of their own volition. This allowed Talia a sort of innocence in passing judgment on Gotham; after all wouldn't the city and its people be better off dead? The prisoners and the others whose rose up would be dealt with; the families they tore apart and the people they wounded would be put out of their misery.

By allowing the people to effectively be their own executioners, Bane managed to triumph over Ra's who would've relied on an outside agent--the fear gas--to initiate Gotham's destruction. At the beginning of the second act (I count the 2nd act as everything after Bane breaks the Batman, up until Bruce rises from the Pit triumphant) Bane has proven himself superior to Batman. Midway into the second act he has one-upped Ra's overarching goal of destroying Gotham.

The difference between Ra's and Bane lies in their conviction. Ra's truly loved his wife and was trying to numb the pain of her death. Bane wanted to prove himself the worth successor to the League of Shadows and repay Talia's kindness (returning with the League to rescue him from the Pit) by helping her exact vengeance for Ra's death. Ra's Al Ghul wanted revenge for his wife's death. Bane sought apotheosis. Ironically its the Batman who achieves this through ensuring that the bomb didn't level Gotham.

The above is based on the dialogue and everything we're given in TDKR (the stuff for Bane and Talia, with some of Ra's. Ra's motive for being in the LoS is, of course, covered in BB).

edit: PS, This is a typed entirely off the cuff without any outlining. I appologize if it jumps all over the place.

BatLobsterRises 12-17-2012 11:07 PM

Re: Contrasts between Bane and Ra's
 
I think Nolan put it well. Ra's is more of a religious leader. Bane is more a militaristic leader and conqueror, but coming from the same school of thought or "religion" as Ra's.

Ra's has the refinement and dignity to get close to someone like Bruce Wayne and have him convinced that he's this great, righteous dude. Bane, while strangely having his own eloquence and wisdom, kind of perverts these traits by virtue of being this hulking mass with a mask that looks like a muzzle. He really looks and feels like a caged animal. It just embodies an entirely different archetype. Ra's was kind of a gentleman's bad guy. Bane is a beast forged from hell. Ra's tried to tame him, and I think that's where a lot of Bane's sophistication comes from, but ultimately I think Ra's was right...he's a monster. He's a monster with human feelings of course, but a monster nonetheless.

Ra's was the type of guy who would walk up behind someone who stood in the way of "true justice" and stab them in the heart. Bane is the type of guy who who will walk up right to the face of anyone who stood in his way, grab them by the throat and snap their neck like a twig, just to set an example.

Likewise, Ra's sought to use a chemical agent to make Gotham destroy itself, and then vanish into the night. Almost like an evil sorcerer or magician (I believe Nolan also said he likes to think of Ra's as a magician), or of course, a ninja- which he was. Bane on the other hand, took the League of Shadows...out of the shadows. Their approaches couldn't be more different in that regard. Ra's would have never been someone to rule over Gotham like a dictator. Bane was all about demonstration of power, which I believe is born out of that desire to prove himself the superior man to Bruce and Ra's. He wants you to see what he's going to do and how easy it's going to be. He wants you to squirm in the inevitability of defeat and death.

"I will show you where I have made my home whilst preparing to bring justice....then I will break you."

"When Gotham is ashes...then you have my permission to die."

"Search him...then I will kill you.

Bane is the once oppressed, who became the oppressor. He can speak for the oppressed in a deceivingly authentic way, given his background and how much he has suffered in life. This is what gives him that power of persuasion and makes him revered to the point where his own men gladly are willing to die for him (I never got that impression with Ra's). But ultimately, he is an oppressor of the most severe kind. Ra's was a lot of things, but he wasn't that.

MagnarTheGreat 12-18-2012 09:23 AM

Re: Contrasts between Bane and Ra's
 
Bane is an amalgam of most of the past villains, from decoy Ra's to Two-Face (serious body injury) and the Joker, plus a lot Bruce Wayne/Batman thrown in. Same deal with Talia, she's her father + Rachel Dawes + William Earle + Bruce Wayne. Selina is probably the most original, now that I think about it, though she reflects Batman and Rachel to a certain extent. It's trickier.

BatmanBeyond 12-18-2012 10:40 AM

Re: Contrasts between Bane and Ra's
 
Magnar points out a very pertinent aspect, that Bane is an amalgam of villains, as well as a dark mirror to Bruce Wayne himself.

The parallels with Ra's, as well as the clear distinctions between the characters have been covered eloquently and in great detail by BatLobster and Mr. Wooden Alligator. Taking the amalgam aspect into mind, it would've been impossible to view Bane as Ra's II anyway. Bane is also similar to the Joker in that he seeks to give the people direct control of their destinies, so that he can prove that Bruce's faith in them is unfounded. There's also a consistent nuance of LoS ideology into that line of thought as well, namely with wanting to set an example to the world through Gotham's destruction.

Essentially, it's a variation of the "When the chips are down, these uh, these civilised people, they'll eat each other" viewpoint. It's actually a staple of all of Batman's villains, they want to show him just how pointless his crusade is.

Visualiza 12-18-2012 01:11 PM

Re: Contrasts between Bane and Ra's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator (Post 24871705)
snip

Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 24871863)
snip

Very well though out and deeply insightful posts from the both of you.

I admit I was of the school of thought that both Bane & Ra's were rather weak villains, but you both have made me reconsider that.

TheDevilIsMe 12-18-2012 05:47 PM

Re: Contrasts between Bane and Ra's
 
Damn good post, BatLobsterRises. So many things I hadn't even thought of.

Just_Human 12-28-2012 11:55 AM

Re: Contrasts between Bane and Ra's
 
Bane is just Bane to me

Not a recycled RAS, not an amalgam of ras/joker/2face :whatever:

Anno_Domini 12-28-2012 12:30 PM

Re: Contrasts between Bane and Ra's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator (Post 24871705)
Ra's was sincere at the League's mission: maintaining balance through burning out corruption. His relationship to Bane is that of a savior to a victim. Similar to Bane's relationship to young Talia. We know Ra's threw Bane out because he reminded Ra's of the hell hole where his wife was killed.

Everything Bane presents us in the film indicates that Talia allowed him to take leadership of the League of Shadows so long as she could complete Ra's work. Recall Bane's "I am the League of Shadows." line. Also from the first Bane vs Batman fight, recall Bane's dialogue with Bruce about betraying the League. Now, look at each character's situation. They are remarkably similar. Both were rescued by Ra's. Both were given training. Only Bruce was chosen as Ra's successor. Bane was cast out by Ra's.

Bane's apparent disgust at Bruce throwing away the position he was offered by Ra's, taken with the aforementioned dialogue from the sewer fight indicate that Bane simply wanted to prove himself the better man than Bruce. The worthy successor, if you will. This is furthered when Bane uses Gordon's speech to set himself up as a symbol for those oppressed by the Dent Act (also by giving them leave to take back their city, giving its citizens what was rightfully theirs); its very much like Batman setting himself up as a symbol for those oppressed by the mob's grip on Gotham prior to and during Batman Begins.

Bane shared the jacket-grip mannerism with Ra's. Recall that Ra's plan involved spreading fear gas throughout Gotham, leaving the drugged citizens to tear their city down. Bane never gassed the citizens. Bane never forced them to rise up against the others in the city they believed to be their oppressors. He simply presented them with the means to do so. Bane allowed Gotham to show the world how depraved it could be*; the citizens and freed prisoners did so of their own volition. This allowed Talia a sort of innocence in passing judgment on Gotham; after all wouldn't the city and its people be better off dead? The prisoners and the others whose rose up would be dealt with; the families they tore apart and the people they wounded would be put out of their misery.

By allowing the people to effectively be their own executioners, Bane managed to triumph over Ra's who would've relied on an outside agent--the fear gas--to initiate Gotham's destruction. At the beginning of the second act (I count the 2nd act as everything after Bane breaks the Batman, up until Bruce rises from the Pit triumphant) Bane has proven himself superior to Batman. Midway into the second act he has one-upped Ra's overarching goal of destroying Gotham.

The difference between Ra's and Bane lies in their conviction. Ra's truly loved his wife and was trying to numb the pain of her death. Bane wanted to prove himself the worth successor to the League of Shadows and repay Talia's kindness (returning with the League to rescue him from the Pit) by helping her exact vengeance for Ra's death. Ra's Al Ghul wanted revenge for his wife's death. Bane sought apotheosis. Ironically its the Batman who achieves this through ensuring that the bomb didn't level Gotham.

The above is based on the dialogue and everything we're given in TDKR (the stuff for Bane and Talia, with some of Ra's. Ra's motive for being in the LoS is, of course, covered in BB).

edit: PS, This is a typed entirely off the cuff without any outlining. I appologize if it jumps all over the place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 24871863)
I think Nolan put it well. Ra's is more of a religious leader. Bane is more a militaristic leader and conqueror, but coming from the same school of thought or "religion" as Ra's.

Ra's has the refinement and dignity to get close to someone like Bruce Wayne and have him convinced that he's this great, righteous dude. Bane, while strangely having his own eloquence and wisdom, kind of perverts these traits by virtue of being this hulking mass with a mask that looks like a muzzle. He really looks and feels like a caged animal. It just embodies an entirely different archetype. Ra's was kind of a gentleman's bad guy. Bane is a beast forged from hell. Ra's tried to tame him, and I think that's where a lot of Bane's sophistication comes from, but ultimately I think Ra's was right...he's a monster. He's a monster with human feelings of course, but a monster nonetheless.

Ra's was the type of guy who would walk up behind someone who stood in the way of "true justice" and stab them in the heart. Bane is the type of guy who who will walk up right to the face of anyone who stood in his way, grab them by the throat and snap their neck like a twig, just to set an example.

Likewise, Ra's sought to use a chemical agent to make Gotham destroy itself, and then vanish into the night. Almost like an evil sorcerer or magician (I believe Nolan also said he likes to think of Ra's as a magician), or of course, a ninja- which he was. Bane on the other hand, took the League of Shadows...out of the shadows. Their approaches couldn't be more different in that regard. Ra's would have never been someone to rule over Gotham like a dictator. Bane was all about demonstration of power, which I believe is born out of that desire to prove himself the superior man to Bruce and Ra's. He wants you to see what he's going to do and how easy it's going to be. He wants you to squirm in the inevitability of defeat and death.

"I will show you where I have made my home whilst preparing to bring justice....then I will break you."

"When Gotham is ashes...then you have my permission to die."

"Search him...then I will kill you.

Bane is the once oppressed, who became the oppressor. He can speak for the oppressed in a deceivingly authentic way, given his background and how much he has suffered in life. This is what gives him that power of persuasion and makes him revered to the point where his own men gladly are willing to die for him (I never got that impression with Ra's). But ultimately, he is an oppressor of the most severe kind. Ra's was a lot of things, but he wasn't that.

Agree to both of these.

:up: :up:


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