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-   -   Why is everyone slamming TDKR? (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=453785)

TheDevilIsMe 02-27-2013 11:30 PM

Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
In all honesty, going around the internets lately - I see alot of 'hate' and disdain for 'The Dark Knight Rises'. In forums, user comments on news articles and YouTube, IMDB, etc.

Even in today's article on 'SHH' about the new 'Iron Man III' poster, the top rated comment was about how "terrible" 'The Dark Knight Rises' is and a few others that echoed that sentiment were also the second and third most top rated.

I've noticed this internet-crapping on the film since maybe...October-ish? But I never said much about it. But now I feel like getting a discussion about it going.

I know many, many films get internet hate or a slamming in forums that actually did amazingly well or very good with critics/audiences and are quite loved - is this the case with 'The Dark Knight Rises'?

I've even seen it on 'Worst or Most Disappointing Sequels' lists or 'Worst of 2012', too. Not to mention I've seen many claim that "The film failed, nobody liked it and it ruined the trilogy" or "It wasn't very well received at all...critics only gave it high marks to avoid death threats."

Am I the only one baffled at how a well received film can attain this reputation on the internet amongst fans and forum users? Are they trying to buck the consensus against the film and brand it as a 'hated'/'terrible' sequel?

I've seen many films get this online stigma despite getting good/great reviews from critics and most people - in the end it doesn't matter because the internet forum-users are equal to such a small, minuscule voice that what they say is the ramblings of a vocal minority that 99.9% of the population doesn't hear or value - but still.

What gives? Is this a vocal minority internet bandwagon-hate or is this 'The Dark Knight Rises's reputation now?

Thundercrack85 02-27-2013 11:32 PM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
I wouldn't say it's terrible, not even outright bad. But it is inferior to the Dark Knight. And that shouldn't be too surprising, since they didn't get to make the movie they wanted to make (with Heath Ledger's passing).

I also see it as something of a backlash against the rather... passionate fanbase.

TheDevilIsMe 02-27-2013 11:40 PM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 (Post 25281541)
I also see it as something of a backlash against the rather... passionate fanbase.

I would say that I never saw such a backlash against 'The Dark Knight', though. The backlash for 'Rises' is much stronger - and the fanboys were even more rabid after the second film so the backlash should've occurred years ago, as well.

Plenty films get internet hate - I wouldn't say that 'Rises' is any different. I don't think the big reason for the backlash is the fanbase.

Boy, you were quick replying.

CoolCadaver49 02-27-2013 11:49 PM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
The forums move fast here. Honestly, I think all the fans got themselves hyped up and that hype allowed them to watch the movie in theaters with rose tinted glasses. Now, the movie is older and some of the new shine has rubbed off, and people start seeing flaws. I think that's part of it, but definitely not all of it.

I think Thundercrack has point in that it really comes down to the fact that The Dark Knight is widely considered better. A dip in quality, no matter how slight, will likely leave a bad taste in fan's mouths.

Plus, have you seen this place? Everyone (over)analyzes every detail of the movie. Any movie is going to look worse under a critical microscope that is applied ruthlessly over and over again.

JackWhite 02-27-2013 11:57 PM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
I always figured that TDKR would be a polarizing film. No matter how you feel about the film, being good, bad, or a disappointment - it was always going to have it's fair share of detractors; after what was pretty much a solid unanimous appreciation for TDK when it came out.

I do think a lot of the hate is pretty petty, because the movie has a lot of material which is damn well stunning and extremely well executed.

CoolCadaver49 02-28-2013 12:22 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JackWhite (Post 25281655)
I always figured that TDKR would be a polarizing film. No matter how you feel about the film, being good, bad, or a disappointment - it was always going to have it's fair share of detractors; after what was pretty much a solid unanimous appreciation for TDK when it came out.

Sure, I agree.

Quote:

I do think a lot of the hate is pretty petty, because the movie has a lot of material which is damn well stunning and extremely well executed.
So you're saying that the fan hate (because, really, I think only Bat fans actually hate TDKR; the GA liked it) is because the movie has a lot of stunning and well executed material? :huh:

Or are you saying it was packed with too much content? Because I can agree with the latter wholeheartedly.

Anno_Domini 02-28-2013 12:40 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Someone's opening a can of worms right now...

*sits back and watches the fireworks*

I will say this though...I find The Dark Knight Rises to be the best of the trilogy myself. And I also find it so odd that people detail out TDKR's plot holes while overlooking TDK's, lol. It's childish fanboyism to the extreme if you ask me because of such critical acclaim that film gets. It's pretty fickle and petty.

BatLobsterRises 02-28-2013 12:48 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
I find it pretty discouraging to be honest. Some fans were legitimately disappointed for certain reasons, and that I can understand.

But the whole thing about plot holes and trying to find a logical flaw in every single aspect of the movie is a bunch of nonsense that defeats the purpose of sitting down, watching a movie and allowing it to take you on a journey. If I was as critical on every movie as the TDKR's critics are on it, I'd probably be unable to enjoy most movies. A lot of internet movie fans tend to overreact if there are "holes" in something because they want to assert their intellect, and seem to have problems liking something if they feel it somehow insulted their intelligence. Hence you have a lot of people saying things like..."I enjoyed it while was I was watching it, but when you think about it later it all falls apart." Which in most cases I've found that they simply were not watching the same movie as the people who loved it were. There are some fundamental differences in interpretation between those who loved the movie and those who didn't...that much I have observed in the past 8 months debating this film on here. And there are so many pivot points in the film, where if one particular element doesn't work for you, it has a ripple effect on the whole film. Whereas conversely, if you loved the same element, it only enhances the rest of the film. Hence the polarized reaction. That's not to say there's no middle ground, there is. But when you have such extreme polarized reactions, you know you're probably dealing with a piece of art.

Just my .02. When I walked out of the theater, before I even looked at a single comment online I knew it would have its detractors. Catwoman killing Bane alone was enough to expect all the "Bane went out like a b****!" comments. But I also felt very strongly that it was an extremely worthy conclusion to this trilogy, one that I believed would stand the test of time. And as a result of that, I think time will be kind to TDKR the same way it was kind to Return of the Jedi. People in my generation (90s kids) grew up loving Return of the Jedi as much as the other movies. There was no need to choose between movies or pick a favorite, because they were all telling one grand story and ROTJ was the thrilling conclusion.

Similarly, I imagine today's soon to be pre-teens and teens discovering the Dark Knight trilogy and being blown away by ALL of it. They won't have that added pressure of anticipation between films. They won't have four agonizing years wondering how they're going to follow up Heath Ledger's performance. They'll just have three great Batman movies waiting for them that tell a very coherent and powerful story. What we all experienced over the course of 7 years, they can over the course of 8 hours. Granted, they may also not love it as much as we did because they didn't get to experience the hype. But what I'm saying is that these are great movies that have what it takes to survive beyond the hype. Rises most surely included, for both the positive and negative hype.

TheDevilIsMe 02-28-2013 01:06 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
It's a provable fact that audiences loved the film as did critics and the majority of fans.

Months have gone by - the only ones left to talk in the comments sections are the ones with nothing but negative things to say who want to attack the film. Nobody stays online to praise a film months after the film's been out.

I've seen many saying it's a polarizing film - but I really don't think it is - not even close. With about 10 people in a forum? Sure. The general public? Batman fans? Critics? Not even close.

Internet naysayers =/= polarizing/hated/terrible.

TheDevilIsMe 02-28-2013 01:07 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini (Post 25281895)
Someone's opening a can of worms right now..

I don't think I did - if I did I do apologize. But I know SHH posters can usually be civil/level headed.

I think someone here said it - fans can be fickle. Some are about 'TDKR'.

Schrute 02-28-2013 01:16 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
I don't think it makes you an internet whiner to not like the film. I can only speak on my behalf, but after viewing the film a couple of times I just kept disliking it more and more. It's not a bad movie, I just prefer TDK and BB over TDKR.

And also to be honest, there are people who will try and criticize every aspect of the film while there will also be people who will try and praise every aspect of the film. Both will go to different levels to prove their point, and obviously they are going to collide.

I think the two extremes are people who don't like the film and find it fun to crap on everything about it to piss people off, and those who love the film and feel it is their duty almost to provide a rebuttal to anyone who has a minor complaint with the film.

FeedOnATreeFrog 02-28-2013 01:46 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
often buzz grows in black and white terms. The simple positive vs negative (as good as TDK vs not as good as TDK) is what is sieved out of comments and conversations, and is what spreads, over time resulting in (amazing vs awful, most dissapointing, etc)

Ever played telephone?

This is present in two ways here.

Buzz, developing (and simplifying) over time is what caused TDK to be elevated to what it is in people's minds. Some sort of holy grail of movies.

At the same time, TDKR, not living up to that ^^^, caused it to start with the immediate reaction of 'being worse'. That comparison creates a negative feeling, even though the movie was great. Or at least, that negativity is what spreads, is what's sieved out of comments and buzz on the internet, and is exponentially decreasing it's buzz.

This was the same case (though much more warranted) with Spiderman 3 and Xmen 3, and especially Iron Man 2.
When those movies came out, they were known as being disappointing, but still good. C+ movies.

Now, people talk about those movies as if they're F level movies.

TheDevilIsMe 02-28-2013 01:51 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog (Post 25282271)
This was the same case (though much more warranted) with Spiderman 3 and Xmen 3, and especially Iron Man 2.
When those movies came out, they were known as being disappointing, but still good. C+ movies.

Now, people talk about those movies as if they're F level movies.

Exactly - and I know a few other films with that sort of reputation at times as well. But I think forum-users and those that talk about those movies as if they're F level movies have such an ego to think that the general population/fandom/critics share their views but they often do not - they more often than not are on opposite sides. It's a case of silent majority and vocal minority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog (Post 25282271)
...is what caused TDK to be elevated to what it is in people's minds. Some sort of holy grail of movies.

This is what I find crazy. I love the series but the 'TDK'-worship is over-blown to the max...

CoolCadaver49 02-28-2013 01:54 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe (Post 25282059)
I don't think I did - if I did I do apologize.

You did, but it's nothing new, really.

Quote:

But I know SHH posters can usually be civil/level headed.
http://images.persephonemagazine.com...laughsmoke.gif

Bruce_Begins 02-28-2013 04:52 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe (Post 25281525)
Even in today's article on 'SHH' about the new 'Iron Man III' poster, the top rated comment was about how "terrible" 'The Dark Knight Rises' is and a few others that echoed that sentiment were also the second and third most top rated.

Meh, Comments from hard core Marvel fans and Batman purists.


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe (Post 25281525)
I've even seen it on 'Worst or Most Disappointing Sequels' lists or 'Worst of 2012', too. Not to mention I've seen many claim that "The film failed, nobody liked it and it ruined the trilogy"

Subjective Opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe (Post 25281525)
or "It wasn't very well received at all...critics only gave it high marks to avoid death threats."

The movie is in the AFI's top ten movies of 2012 list, that cannot be due to threats.

Quote:

Am I the only one baffled at how a well received film can attain this reputation on the internet amongst fans and forum users? Are they trying to buck the consensus against the film and brand it as a 'hated'/'terrible' sequel?
Who cares what they think, it was a success commercially and critically.

titansupes 02-28-2013 04:56 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
TDKR is well loved among critics and general movie goers alike, it's unquestionable. It's a very vocal minority that do all the hating.

henzINNIT 02-28-2013 07:58 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 (Post 25281541)
I wouldn't say it's terrible, not even outright bad. But it is inferior to the Dark Knight. And that shouldn't be too surprising, since they didn't get to make the movie they wanted to make (with Heath Ledger's passing).

I also see it as something of a backlash against the rather... passionate fanbase.

[/endthread]

Nailed it, and in the first response.

The Joker 02-28-2013 09:24 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Personally I think it's because it doesn't live up to the high standard Batman Begins and The Dark Knight set. It just doesn't match either of them in terms of quality, IMO. It's easily the weakest one of the trilogy. Not that it's a bad movie by any stretch of the imagination. I think it did break the superhero threequel curse.

The shine has been wearing off for a few months now, the negativity has been increasing, particularly since it came out on blu-ray/DVD. People have had time to sit down and watch it more in the comfort of their homes and see how flawed it really is.

TheBat812 02-28-2013 10:51 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker (Post 25283299)
Personally I think it's because it doesn't live up to the high standard Batman Begins and The Dark Knight set. It just doesn't match either of them in terms of quality, IMO. It's easily the weakest one of the trilogy. Not that it's a bad movie by any stretch of the imagination. I think it did break the superhero threequel curse.

The shine has been wearing off for a few months now, the negativity has been increasing, particularly since it came out on blu-ray/DVD. People have had time to sit down and watch it more in the comfort of their homes and see how flawed it really is.

For others, the months of watching it in the comfort of their own homes have only strengthened it. While some flaws from the first viewing are still there, others have sweetened with age. I used to have a problem with the pacing because of how unconventional the structure was, but now I feel the pacing works incredibly well and flows and builds in all the right places. The tiny plausibility errors no longer bother me, like his leg brace, back fixing, etc. They all fit perfectly in the world of the trilogy upon rewatching them all, it was simply my own definition of the reality of his world that was skewed.

I dunno, I think this movie has accentuated Nolan's greatest flaws and weaknesses, and is definitely not his best film, but because of how grandiose it is, it has to cut corners in some areas to make room for depth in others. I definitely think the high bar of the first two movies skewed people's expectations of the third film by misinterpreting Nolan's vision of it and envisioning something that Nolan never intended to do. That doesn't make the flaws of the film go away, but it certainly augments them because of unrealistic expectations. Like BatLobster said, for those who will watch it for years to come, the experience will be seamless between all three films, and the story will just be accepted as the story being told, which will hopefully stop people from having petty issues with it.

Just like BB and TDK have their issues but are amazing films and Batman adventures, TDKR will also stand the test of time in the same light. I think Joker's post above is very telling of that. He's been one of the most vocal critics of the film on this forum, and even he thinks it's easily on the positive end of the spectrum.

Visceral 02-28-2013 11:29 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
There can only be one highlander. If Avengers is good means batman must be bad, NO 2 GOOD FILMS.

BatLobsterRises 02-28-2013 11:43 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
The whole thing about the living up to the high standard seems to be so focussed once again on plot points. But there are so many other aspects to filmmaking.

It completely lives up to the high standard of its predecessors and even surpasses them in some cases when it comes to acting, cinematography, score, emotion, scale, action, depth. All of these things are huge reasons I even go to the movies, and this film is just flat out dominant when it comes to all of them. It all combines to create something extremely resonant.

I also agree with TheBat812 that it accentuates Nolan's greatest flaws due to the scale. But I think at the same time it showed just how much he has grown as a filmmaker. And for all the criticisms that have been thrown Nolan's way over the years about his films being too "cold", I find TDKR's palpable heartbeat and emotional storytelling to be the perfect answer to that. Just like Selina Kyle is the perfect answer to someone saying that he can't portray an interesting female character.

I think if anything, the negativity has been increasing because that's what happens to every single superhero film after the newness wears off. I think this review is spot-on when it comes to the divisiveness regarding the film and whether or not it holds up:

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Da.../21212/#Review

Bruce_Begins 02-28-2013 11:50 AM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
The Dark Knight Rises


87% RT, 8.0 average rating (7.9 Top Critics)

78/100 Metacritic,

91/100 Critics' Choice

A Cinemascore

8.6/10. IMDB Rating

AFI Top 10
SEFCA Top 10
Rolling Stone Top 10
Time Top 10
Los Angeles Times Top 10
New York Post Top 10

Number #8 All Time Worldwide collections.
Number #7 All Time US collections.

Anno_Domini 02-28-2013 12:01 PM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Oh, indeed. It's like people want to forget that TDKR was placed in numerous Top Ten lists as well as being only the fourth CBM to make into AFI's Top Ten(the other three? Just little films called The Dark Knight, Iron Man and Spider-Man 2...you don't see The Avengers in the list, lol), as well as a 92% audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes(just for an example outside of these fanboyish forums).

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe (Post 25282059)
But I know SHH posters can usually be civil/level headed.

:lmao:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schrute (Post 25282137)
I don't think it makes you an internet whiner to not like the film.

It's not "whining", but it is obvious that if someone doesn't like a film, or hates it even, it is called whining to posters when they talk about it negatively. I know from experience because of how I view The Amazing Spider-Man, it's "whining" in the Spidey boards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker (Post 25283299)
The shine has been wearing off for a few months now, the negativity has been increasing, particularly since it came out on blu-ray/DVD. People have had time to sit down and watch it more in the comfort of their homes and see how flawed it really is.

What makes you think that though just because a few posters here and there that views the film in a more negative light?

henzINNIT 02-28-2013 12:16 PM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 25283997)
The whole thing about the living up to the high standard seems to be so focussed once again on plot points. But there are so many other aspects to filmmaking.

It completely lives up to the high standard of its predecessors and even surpasses them in some cases when it comes to acting, cinematography, score, emotion, scale, action, depth. All of these things are huge reasons I even go to the movies, and this film is just flat out dominant when it comes to all of them. It all combines to create something extremely resonant.

I also agree with TheBat812 that it accentuates Nolan's greatest flaws due to the scale. But I think at the same time it showed just how much he has grown as a filmmaker. And for all the criticisms that have been thrown Nolan's way over the years about his films being too "cold", I find TDKR's palpable heartbeat and emotional storytelling to be the perfect answer to that. Just like Selina Kyle is the perfect answer to someone saying that he can't portray an interesting female character.

I think if anything, the negativity has been increasing because that's what happens to every single superhero film after the newness wears off. I think this review is spot-on when it comes to the divisiveness regarding the film and whether or not it holds up:

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Da.../21212/#Review

Some great points made. Nolan certainly made a beautiful looking film with strong performances all around.

Selina Kyle is a great female character from Nolan, probably his first. She is one of my favourite elements of the film, thanks in no small part to Hathaway's brilliant portrayal. Funny that she was my biggest concern going into the film.

I disagree on this being any less "cold" than Nolan's work. This is a bleak, bleak film. There is a heart to it, but that heart is being stamped on repeatedly lol. This isn't something that bothers me in the film though.

CoolCadaver49 02-28-2013 12:34 PM

Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins (Post 25284053)
The Dark Knight Rises


87% RT, 8.0 average rating (7.9 Top Critics)

78/100 Metacritic,

91/100 Critics' Choice

A Cinemascore

8.6/10. IMDB Rating

AFI Top 10
SEFCA Top 10
Rolling Stone Top 10
Time Top 10
Los Angeles Times Top 10
New York Post Top 10

Number #8 All Time Worldwide collections.
Number #7 All Time US collections.

OP is talking about online negativity towards the film (such as in these forums). I think it's clear that the movie was well liked by the general audience and critics alike (and probably most fans too). But unless I'm misinterpreting, that's not what this thread is about.

I've already stated what I think some of the causes of the "hate" are. For me, personally, I didn't like where the story went at all. No amount of polish, good acting, or post-viewing analysis will change that. I would not call the movie a failure in a general (box office, critic approval) sense. Saying that is just false.

At the very worst, TDR will be considered the Return of the Jedi of Nolan's trilogy, but even then, only among Batfans. Everyone else will have either forgotten it in favor of TDK, or consider the trilogy as a whole.


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