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milost 03-12-2013 11:37 PM

The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
I was inspired by a few conversations on here, as well as the Catwoman versus thread.


So I'm a bit curious where people stand in terms of the two villains from the last two Batman films. If you had to choose one, who would it be, which villain is the better villain for Batman. Heath Ledger's Joker or Bane from TDKR? The clown prince of crime and agent of chaos or the mumbling, ex-communicated Al Ghul lackey himself, Bane? Which villain to you pick and why? Which one was more interesting for you when pitted up against the Dark Knight.


While normally, I'd like both characters and would want a "both" option, in this case, I'd go with the Joker, no contest. I'm in the minority but Bane just bugs me. It's like they tried to up the ante in terms of what the villain was capable of doing (especially with the cities destruction) but I don't think you could ever top the Joker's charisma, televised threats and chaos or his relationship as the antithesis to Batman. Blocked off Gotham with a nuke and armed mercs? Pfft, Joker took control with panic, bullets, bombs and crazies.

Also The Joker didn't go out in a lame fashion.

JackWhite 03-12-2013 11:44 PM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by milost (Post 25378285)
I was inspired by a few conversations on here, as well as the Catwoman versus thread.


So I'm a bit curious where people stand in terms of the two villains from the last two Batman films. If you had to choose one, who would it be, which villain is the better villain for Batman. Heath Ledger's Joker or Bane from TDKR? The clown prince of crime and agent of chaos or the mumbling, ex-communicated Al Ghul lackey himself, Bane? Which villain to you pick and why? Which one was more interesting for you when pitted up against the Dark Knight.


While normally, I'd like both characters and would want a "both" option, in this case, I'd go with the Joker, no contest. I'm in the minority but Bane just bugs me. It's like they tried to up the ante in terms of what the villain was capable of doing (especially with the cities destruction) but I don't think you could ever top the Joker's charisma, televised threats and chaos or his relationship as the antithesis to Batman. Blocked off Gotham with a nuke and armed mercs? Pfft, Joker took control with panic, bullets, bombs and crazies.

Also didn't go out in a lame fashion.

Come on milost. You're better than that. So, so bias.

Anyways, it's the Joker. I think it was always going to be the Joker, but had Bane not been given the shaft after Talia's reveal, I believe he would have been a better all around villain. Albeit, at number two.

If anything, the bigger question is who was the more important villain - Joker or Ra's?

BatLobsterRises 03-12-2013 11:51 PM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
We already had a poll like this a while back.

I choose not to vote. I think ultimately you can't top The Joker, especially if you're just looking at it from a perspective of significance in Batman's history...but I truly adored Bane and don't want to contribute to his inevitable loss in this poll :oldrazz:

Seriously though, they're entirely different archetypes. One is the trickster/devil/anarchist, the other is brute militaristic power mixed in with some revolutionary zeal. It's a complete 180 from The Joker and intentionally so. By being so different, the film is able to continue contextualizing The Joker in the mythology without ever mentioning his name.

Nolan on the main villains of the three films:

Quote:

If you look at the three of them, Ras Al Ghul is almost a religious figure, The Joker is the anti-religious figure, the anti-structure anarchist. And then Bane comes in as a military dictator. And military dictators can be ideologically based, they can be religiously based, or a combination thereof.

milost 03-12-2013 11:52 PM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Was there a poll already made like this Batlobster? I tried searching for it first but couldn't find it.

BatLobsterRises 03-13-2013 12:01 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...ght=bane+joker

Just found it. My mistake, it wasn't actually a poll, just a thread. So in light of that, I'll cast my vote :yay:

Again though, I can't stress enough how much I loved Bane. The Joker is just my favorite Batman villain period. But Rises' take on Bane was like the ultimate version of Bane IMO. Made him feel like a true A-lister.

Anno_Domini 03-13-2013 12:35 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
It was still a thread though that was about The Joker and Bane, so this isn't necessary but continues to show milost's biased attitude :csad:

Anywho...I vote for Bane. Someone wants to call it a bad ending in "lame fashion", that's cool...I call it a fine ending that just needed something extra(such as showing the GCPD hauling Bane's dead body out of City Hall and perhaps cutting off Selina's quip).

Shikamaru 03-13-2013 12:43 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
I'll personally go with the clown prince of crime that managed to break Gotham's spirit all by himself and push Batman to his limits while Batman was young and at full health over Talia's lackey muscle that went out pathetically and managed to defeat an already worn out and crippled Batman.

Plus, nothing against Tom Hardy when I say this and I really think he did a great job as Bane but Heath's performance was something else altogether IMO. It is one of my favorite performances of all time.

BatLobsterRises 03-13-2013 12:46 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikamaru (Post 25378715)
Talia's lackey muscle

http://phandroid.com/wp-content/uplo...se-264x300.jpg

Shikamaru 03-13-2013 01:04 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 25378737)

Thought I should take advantage of this post and make my own Bane meme :D.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/36091528.jpg

Anno_Domini 03-13-2013 01:07 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikamaru (Post 25378715)
I'll personally go with the clown prince of crime that managed to break Gotham's spirit all by himself and push Batman to his limits while Batman was young and at full health over Talia's lackey muscle that went out pathetically and managed to defeat an already worn out and crippled Batman.

Plus, nothing against Tom Hardy when I say this and I really think he did a great job as Bane but Heath's performance was something else altogether IMO. It is one of my favorite performances of all time.

A few things -

Joker only pushed Batman emotionally and mentally, so it wasn't ALL of Batman's limits, but I get your point. But still, isn't that in Knightfall as well? Bane beats down a worn out Batman? It's staying true to the backstory of Bane having the upper end with a weakened Batman.

And...Bane wasn't some lackey, lol.

BatLobsterRises 03-13-2013 01:09 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikamaru (Post 25378837)
Thought I should take advantage of this post and make my own Bane meme :D.


A good ol' Bane meme is the way to my heart :cwink:.

milost 03-13-2013 01:31 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini (Post 25378861)
A few things -

Joker only pushed Batman emotionally and mentally, so it wasn't ALL of Batman's limits, but I get your point.

He beat the crud out of Batman with a crow bar, sicced dogs on him and almost choked him to death, definitely immobilized him. He could have killed Batman if he wanted to. The Joker didn't even have training and he took down a seasoned crime fighter that was in his prime! The only way Batman beat him was with his sweet arm blades.

I'd say he got Batman physically in there as well. Batman doesn't even really get a shot in. Sure, he didn't break his back, but he beat the crap out of him and created a situation where Batman had to haul his butt clear across Gotham.



What did Bane do? He beat down a guy with a knee brace who hadn't fought in 8 years and did nothing but mope around in his mansion. Then, he let that same guy heal in a pit, escape the pit (something Bane could never do without help) and then got his ass kicked.

Then he discards any sense of honor when his boss leaves and does something the comic Bane would never do, cowardly puts a gun to his opponents head that bested him fairly in combat. Then without warning, he's sent flying like a rag doll.

A fitting, unmemorable end to his kind. Best thing about the movie character is the memes that are made about him and the raps that are made!




Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini (Post 25378861)
And...Bane wasn't some lackey, lol.

Debatable.


"Mah protectah". :woot:

Shikamaru 03-13-2013 01:42 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini (Post 25378861)
A few things -

Joker only pushed Batman emotionally and mentally, so it wasn't ALL of Batman's limits, but I get your point. But still, isn't that in Knightfall as well? Bane beats down a worn out Batman? It's staying true to the backstory of Bane having the upper end with a weakened Batman.

And...Bane wasn't some lackey, lol.

The difference is that in Knightfall, Batman being worn out was all due to Bane from the beginning. Bane spent several months studying Batman and coming to the conclusion that physical strength alone wasn't enough to beat him so he came up with the plan of breaking all of Arkham's inmates in order to wear down Bruce. After that, he took advantage of Batman's exhausted mind, body, and spirit and decided that that was the moment for him to strike and break the bat. That's the reason why Bane became such a popular villain with the fans in such a short amount of time - he managed to utterly break and destroy Batman by developing & carrying out a well thought plan and by beating Batman at his own game (using prep time against him).

Bruce was already crippled in TDKR prior to the start of the movie so Bane crippling him doesn't have anywhere of the same amount of impact that it did in the book IMO and the fact he gets taken out pretty fast by a still-somewhat-crippled-but-nowhere-as-crippled-as-before Batman doesn't add to the impact it was supposed to have either.


It is specifically the Talia reveal in the third act which ruins Bane in the movie IMO. That's when we learn that he was just a lackey and that Talia was doing the planning all along. By that point, we know absolutely nothing about Bane's character either. Our entire knowledge of him is reduced to nothing. We don't know what he's been saying throughout the movie that was true and what wasn't. The whole backstory about him being the only one other than Bruce to get out of that hole also turns out to be false, which is a shame since it fit Bane really well and was similar to his origin in the comics too.

BatLobsterRises 03-13-2013 01:48 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
It's funny that the default way for Batman fans to assess a villain's quality in the movies is almost by their virtues or likability. People loved that the Joker and Ra's spoke "truth" and used it as ammunition for their cause (though Bane does the same in a more cynical way).

That's all well and good, but sometimes it's okay for a bad guy to be unlikable. That's what Bane was to me. He had that streak of charisma, he was impressive in what he was capable of, but there was something appalling about the guy where you just desperately wanted to see Batman get even and kick his ass. And that's why I didn't even mind having the film deflate his "legend" a bit towards the end. The monster turns out to not quite be all he's cracked up to be. In the end, he's just a man.

The Joker, for all the evil he represented...let's be honest, we all love to see him work. He's just a fun character and it's fun to see him get the upper hand on everyone around him, despite how horrifying it is (and IT IS)

Bane was a villain you could really hate, but at the same time the film showed us glimpses of his damaged humanity which made him feel all the more real. And Hardy did add an element of fun to Bane with the voice, which is always a hoot to imitate. But overall there's just a sense of pure dread when it comes to Bane. Because he is ultimately Bruce Wayne's evil doppleganger in the film. And there's nothing cute or fun about that. It means war.

kvz5 03-13-2013 01:59 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
The Joker by a mile.

Ryan 03-13-2013 08:12 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
I voted Joker, but I really enjoyed Bane and he exceeded my expectations.

AnneFan 03-13-2013 08:55 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises (Post 25378481)
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...ght=bane+joker

Just found it. My mistake, it wasn't actually a poll, just a thread. So in light of that, I'll cast my vote :yay:

I thought there was a similar thread to this. I said the Joker there and I'll say it again here. It was lightning in a bottle.

The Joker 03-13-2013 09:55 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Easily the Joker.

Tequilla 03-13-2013 10:12 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
I had a lot of fun watching what the Nolan bros and Hardy did with Bane. They completely transcended his character ...that's why i'l pick him.

But Joker was also awesome.

Ra's , Joker and Bane...that's the 3 coolest villains in a row you'll ever see. All of them were perfect.

Brain Damage 03-13-2013 10:29 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Bane was a terrific villain but Ledger's Joker is one of the greatest villains in movie history. No contest.

Blitzkrieg Bop 03-13-2013 11:49 AM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
What is so wrong about Talia and Bane working together? That doesn't make Bane any less of a villain. Their plan was an attack on two sides, Bruce Wayne and Batman. Talia worked as an enemy disguised as a friend to get to the bomb, because only Bruce would have told her where it was. Bane broke the Bat, took control of Gotham City for several months with an armed doomsday device, and threw the Dark Knight in a hole in the ground to die. If it's a pissing contest you want, how long did the Joker scare Gotham City? A few days? And the Joker's plan to throw Gotham City into an uproar over Two-Face? Bane did that. He picked up the Joker's scraps.

Bane achieved what no other Batman villain has done, he humiliated Batman. Yeah, Batman may have been "crippled", or whatever you want to call it, but that didn't stop him from escaping the police or taking out the dozen or so henchmen armed with guns. That shows that he's still the same Batman he's been in the last two movies, regardless of any knee brace or physical condition. Then comes the one-sided beatdown in front of an audience, followed by exile from the city he has sworn to protect. At this point, Bruce has also lost his fortune and handed over the bomb threatening to destroy Gotham, and he can't do a thing about it. It's the lowest point of his life and it came from the work of two minds, Talia and Bane. Now, of course, their plan to destroy Gotham would have worked, if it weren't that pesky Batman mucking things up.

milost 03-13-2013 12:27 PM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Also, Hans Landa is a much better villain than Bane. One of the greatest.

Rodrigo90 03-13-2013 12:53 PM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Joker.

A more or less ordinary human being, with a twisted sense of philosophy that the world and everything in it is a joke and that we're all the crazy ones for not seeing it, and so obsessed with the belief that he concocted a plan to smash the morals and values of an entire city to turn it "insane" in order to wake it up to his idea of reality.

That sure is something.

The Joker 03-13-2013 01:36 PM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg Bop (Post 25380517)
What is so wrong about Talia and Bane working together?

Nothing. It's Bane working for Talia that riles people the wrong way.

Quote:

Bane broke the Bat, took control of Gotham City for several months with an armed doomsday device, and threw the Dark Knight in a hole in the ground to die.
Bane broke an 8 year out of practice Batman who needed a knee brace to get around without the reliance of a cane because he had no cartilage left in his knees.

Hardly a great physical triumph.

He took Gotham hostage for several months, and what happened in those several months? Nothing. Cops were locked under ground, alive, and well fed. The rich people were thrown on the ice. The rest of Gotham just seemingly kept their heads down.

Most boring city siege ever.

Quote:

If it's a pissing contest you want, how long did the Joker scare Gotham City? A few days?
Yeah, and in those few days we saw a more terrified chaotic Gotham City than we ever saw during Bane's 5 month dragged out quiet siege. Give me Judges and Police Commissioners getting blown away, mobs of angry panicked citizens trying to assassinate a citizen, Gotham hospital being blown up, a city wide evacuation, Gotham Police HQ getting blown up, Cops cars and helicopters getting destroyed in epic chase scenes etc over the dull happenings during Bane's pointless siege.

Quote:

And the Joker's plan to throw Gotham City into an uproar over Two-Face? Bane did that. He picked up the Joker's scraps.
Really? Where did we see the city in an uproar over the revelation of the Dent lie? The only reaction I saw was Blake's moral posturing to Gordon.

Quote:

Bane achieved what no other Batman villain has done, he humiliated Batman.
Big deal. Joker turned all of Gotham against Batman, killed Batman's best friend and woman he loved, forced Batman and Gordon into corrupt actions over Dent's downfall, and essentially sent Batman into 8 years of depression.

Bane beat up an 8 year out of date Batman, and then sent him to a pit with food, medical care, and ample time to recover and train himself back up again.

Quote:

Yeah, Batman may have been "crippled", or whatever you want to call it, but that didn't stop him from escaping the police or taking out the dozen or so henchmen armed with guns. That shows that he's still the same Batman he's been in the last two movies, regardless of any knee brace or physical condition.
Riding the Bat-Pod and escaping in The Bat doesn't take any extreme stamina. As Alfred so correctly said "You led a bloated Police force a merry chase with a load of fancy new toys from Fox".

As for the fight on the rooftop, taking out a few thugs is not indicative that he was what he was, especially considering he had Selina helping him in that fight, too.

milost 03-13-2013 01:45 PM

Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)
 
When I see The Joker's post, for some reason I can't help but see a bit of myself in them. :woot:


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