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-   -   Let The Hero Lose. (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=464351)

the last son 08-25-2013 08:34 PM

Let The Hero Lose.
 
For once I'm waiting for the hero to lose. I like shaking things up. I like writing epics and doing things at a slow pace, I think it would be brilliant to do, especially since we usually get trilogies in these series anyways. It would be unique to have the hero fighting a threat that is so strong and to just have them battle through all their blood, sweat, and tears. One where if he/she loses at the end the audience wouldn't say "wow, what was the point of that" or "some hero they were" but instead say I can't wait for the next movie and this hero gave their all. Now, I'm not saying they have to die at the end but look close to certain death or just simply lose the battle, be at the mercy of the villain. Have people wonder how will the hero come back to win and leave the movie like that. Not every movie has to be tied with a bow at the end and the hero smiling. I think it would be a great idea and the audience would appreciate something different. Now tell me, who's with me?

Tanin 08-25-2013 08:35 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Peter Parker should die.

DarkSovereignty 08-26-2013 11:05 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
I do kind of wish that Christopher Nolan had the balls to actually kill of batman at the end of the dark knight rises. Probably would save then third act for me.

ThePhantasm 08-26-2013 11:23 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Batman kinda loses at the end of The Dark Knight (depending on your point of view).

kedrell 08-27-2013 12:18 AM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Iron Man should lose one since going gung-ho against the grain when he believes he is right and then later having a "Oh, maybe I really shouldn't have done that" moment is so in line with what his character has always been about....being human and making mistakes(sometimes really big ones). Just incorporate that into a villain winning against him for once.

kedrell 08-27-2013 12:22 AM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the last son (Post 26727237)
For once I'm waiting for the hero to lose. I like shaking things up. I like writing epics and doing things at a slow pace, I think it would be brilliant to do, especially since we usually get trilogies in these series anyways. It would be unique to have the hero fighting a threat that is so strong and to just have them battle through all their blood, sweat, and tears. One where if he/she loses at the end the audience wouldn't say "wow, what was the point of that" or "some hero they were" but instead say I can't wait for the next movie and this hero gave their all. Now, I'm not saying they have to die at the end but look close to certain death or just simply lose the battle, be at the mercy of the villain. Have people wonder how will the hero come back to win and leave the movie like that. Not every movie has to be tied with a bow at the end and the hero smiling. I think it would be a great idea and the audience would appreciate something different. Now tell me, who's with me?

I'm not so sure the audience wouldn't be saying that. Very likely they would be.

Heretic 08-27-2013 12:25 AM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Joss Whedon recently blasted Empire Strikes Back because he said that the story isn't over until the good guys win, so the movie is incomplete (so, a rip-off, I guess).

Hogwash.

My dream for Guardians of the Galaxy was that Thanos would kill most of them, with the one survivor fleeing to earth, trying to get there before Thanos attacked. In the first Avengers, the team ought a guy who lost to Thor using a weapon that Captain America had already defeated. Imagine if part 2 was about a guy who had just slaughtered an entire team of heroes and killed billions of innocents...now THAT is a threat!

Happy Jack 08-27-2013 12:29 AM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Batman essentially loses at the end of The Dark Knight. Him taking the fall for the Two-Face murders was a stalemate maneuver that ensured that the Joker didn't win and that Gotham was saved (for a time), but it still ends with the hero being chased by police dogs and vilified. As far as I know it is the only superhero film to do this.

kedrell 08-27-2013 12:31 AM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Watchmen ends in an outright win for the villain. Still don't like that movie though.

KRYPTON INC. 08-27-2013 12:39 AM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
For an installment of a franchise series, the definition of "the hero loses" needs to be put in context. I mean, does a villain like what Loki was "win"? If so, then the entire fictional world for the hero is different. Loki is King of Earth, Thanos has the cube, the entirety of human civilization is thrown for a loop. Those are big things. Now let's say a TDKT Joker wins. Well, the entire world isn't at stake to begin with. Gotham get's a little more violent for a period. Big whoop.

Kahran Ramsus 08-27-2013 09:45 AM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Joker did win in TDK. He turned Gotham's White Knight into a monster, and Batman was forced into breaking his 'one rule' to stop him. Joker actually getting away was never a major concern of his.

Loki882 08-27-2013 10:07 AM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
I agree with previous posters, Batman lost in TDK. Heck, Bane even proved that Joker's claim that people would turn on each other when the chips were down to be correct in TDKR (Gotham's citizens did turn on each other).

jonathancrane 08-27-2013 10:38 AM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Bats did lose in both of the later installments of the trilogy. Even though WE was able to manufacture an antidote to Crane's fear toxin, Bats was still unable to prevent it from being deployed. Think about all of the innocent civilians who were tripping in the worst possible way...

Wesley Dodds 08-27-2013 10:48 AM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Yeah, I'm all for it.

I think they had a real opportunity to do so with Iron Man 2 too.
If they'd gone down the Demon in a Bottle storyline and actually integrated Whiplash into the story as a real threat, then they could have ended it with Stark's reputation in tatters, his relationship with Pepper destroyed and him now completely dependant on alcohol to get through the day. Then Iron Man 3 could be about him coming back from the brink.
That was never gonna happen with The Avengers on the horizon though.

metaphysician 08-27-2013 12:44 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSovereignty (Post 26737349)
I do kind of wish that Christopher Nolan had the balls to actually kill of batman at the end of the dark knight rises. Probably would save then third act for me.

It was braver for him to give Bruce a happy ending. Vastly more controversial.

OcStat 08-27-2013 01:00 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by metaphysician (Post 26740529)
It was braver for him to give Bruce a happy ending. Vastly more controversial.

Good point.

I don't think the Joker won in TDK. Batman did what he did at the end so the Joker wouldn't win. And Batman didn't kill anyone, so Joker didn't get him to break his one rule.

Yeah there was big cover-up, bit credit goes to Bane for exposing it. And Bane did defeat Batman, if only temporarily. The only kind of defeat Batman would ever know in the first place. Bane should've known better than to less with the Bat. Ha.

CyclopsWasRight 08-27-2013 01:59 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kedrell (Post 26737691)
Iron Man should lose one since going gung-ho against the grain when he believes he is right and then later having a "Oh, maybe I really shouldn't have done that" moment is so in line with what his character has always been about....being human and making mistakes(sometimes really big ones). Just incorporate that into a villain winning against him for once.

Pepper should've diedinstead of coming back. That would've gave the movie some meaning

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heretic (Post 26737731)
My dream for Guardians of the Galaxy was that Thanos would kill most of them, with the one survivor fleeing to earth, trying to get there before Thanos attacked. In the first Avengers, the team ought a guy who lost to Thor using a weapon that Captain America had already defeated. Imagine if part 2 was about a guy who had just slaughtered an entire team of heroes and killed billions of innocents...now THAT is a threat!

**** that ****.

Guardians are AWESOME. They should come in and save the Avengers from getting their asses beat by Thanos.

Kahran Ramsus 08-27-2013 02:48 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OcStat
I don't think the Joker won in TDK. Batman did what he did at the end so the Joker wouldn't win. And Batman didn't kill anyone, so Joker didn't get him to break his one rule.

Batman killed Dent.

kedrell 08-27-2013 05:30 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
^That he did. In fact it's the exact same thing as when Superman killed Zod.

metaphysician 08-27-2013 06:26 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kedrell (Post 26743003)
^That he did. In fact it's the exact same thing as when Superman killed Zod.

Except for that Nolan did it vastly better, for being a vastly more skilled director than Snyder.

metaphysician 08-27-2013 06:27 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by droidwarrior (Post 26741127)
Pepper should've diedinstead of coming back. That would've gave the movie some meaning

Because, of course, the perfect way to teach Tony that he doesn't need to control everything is to fridge his love interest. :whatever:

DACrowe 08-27-2013 06:32 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
The Dark Knight did do that. Or at last it was a win/lose situation. That is probably the best way you can do it in a billion dollar franchise with a lot riding on it.

Drizzle 08-27-2013 06:38 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kedrell (Post 26743003)
^That he did. In fact it's the exact same thing as when Superman killed Zod.

It's not exactly the same. There's no guarantee that Dent would have killed Gordon's son. He was flipping the coin to decide, which turned up heads if I recall correctly when it fell on the floor after Batman tackled him. Zod, on the other hand, had every intent to murder those people and would have if Superman hadn't intervened.

DACrowe 08-27-2013 06:38 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kedrell (Post 26743003)
^That he did. In fact it's the exact same thing as when Superman killed Zod.

See, i would agree with that.

The only difference is that when it happened in TDK, you felt the weight and tragedy of Batman both doing it to Dent, and also doing it to himself. In MOS, we are never really given a reason to sympathize with Zod and Superman never says jack **** about his "one rule," thereby making that moment hollow.

Just my opinion. And a fact, in this case.

Drizzle 08-27-2013 06:41 PM

Re: Let The Hero Lose.
 
The other difference is Batman didn't intend to kill Dent really. His main objective was saving Gordon's son. It's not as if they were on the edge of a cliff. Dent could have survived that fall. Superman just went full throttle when he snapped Zod's neck, but he wasn't left with a choice.


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