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-   -   Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=464737)

thorstone 08-31-2013 06:30 PM

Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Nolan touched on this darker authoritarian side of Batman in The Dark Knight-- what do you think of Batman as a vehicle for the modern surveillance state?

Will we see bat-drones flying around Gotham? Will Batman have a surveillance satellite? Will this be the crux of the conflict between Batman and Superman?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
At the end of Man of Steel, Superman destroys a surveillance drone, so we know that this Superman stands against such technologies.

roach 09-02-2013 12:18 AM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Nolan's Batman represented how the world see's America.

KRYPTON INC. 09-02-2013 12:21 AM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roach (Post 26775465)
Nolan's Batman represented how the world see's America.

That's right. People think America quits when it's girlfriend dies. :oldrazz:

(Joke, people, a joke.)

DarthVapor 09-02-2013 02:34 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Well Joke or no Joke... He did quit when his girlfriend died. So its not even that funny. He was a quitter....

TheFlamingCoco 09-02-2013 02:37 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thorstone (Post 26768333)
Nolan touched on this darker authoritarian side of Batman in The Dark Knight-- what do you think of Batman as a vehicle for the modern surveillance state?

Will we see bat-drones flying around Gotham? Will Batman have a surveillance satellite? Will this be the crux of the conflict between Batman and Superman?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
At the end of Man of Steel, Superman destroys a surveillance drone, so we know that this Superman stands against such technologies.

What was that satellite for. Good tv reception? :P

I don't like the idea of Batman using drones. I think his ego stands in the way. Also, he'd probably be paranoid of being hacked.

Goshdarn Batman 09-02-2013 02:41 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco (Post 26778449)
Also, he'd probably be paranoid of being hacked.

Batman: "People must never find out my dirty secret... That Wertham was right all along (deletes pictures of bare chested men)"

MessiahDecoy123 09-04-2013 08:59 AM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
I don't like Batman symbolizing the surveillance (police?) state just yet.

Maybe in a Kingdom Come movie where all the characters are extreme/fully-realized versions of themselves but not in Batman/Superman or a World's Finest movie.

Before Batman is driven to extremes to lock down Gotham completely he's just a lone renegade crusading for justice in a corrupt wasteland.

He's the idealistic rebel who later becomes a hardened dictator. People need to see the full evolution from the beginning, which means hints of draconian/Orwellian beliefs rather than a full display of them.

thorstone 09-29-2013 12:32 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Batman could have bat themed ornithopter drones or fixed wing drones (or both).

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


Quote:

Originally Posted by roach (Post 26775465)
Nolan's Batman represented how the world see's America.

Only 1% of America is in the 1%...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 (Post 26789301)
I don't like Batman symbolizing the surveillance (police?) state just yet.

Maybe in a Kingdom Come movie where all the characters are extreme/fully-realized versions of themselves but not in Batman/Superman or a World's Finest movie.

Before Batman is driven to extremes to lock down Gotham completely he's just a lone renegade crusading for justice in a corrupt wasteland.

He's the idealistic rebel who later becomes a hardened dictator. People need to see the full evolution from the beginning, which means hints of draconian/Orwellian beliefs rather than a full display of them.

This Batman has been confirmed to be middle aged and well into his career under the mask.

Eddie Dean 09-29-2013 12:53 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
I much prefer Frank Miller's anti-authority rebel Batman to Nolan's Right Wing Batman.

CharlieS 09-29-2013 02:26 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Batman looks like a libertarian and Superman looks like a republican that's my thoughts on this.

CharlieS 09-29-2013 02:57 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
In TDK Returns Batman looks like a fascist i don't know if he's a fascist but he looks like a fascist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtfHyzgNQPA

gdw 09-30-2013 11:05 AM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie Dean (Post 26926205)
I much prefer Frank Miller's anti-authority rebel Batman to Nolan's Right Wing Batman.

Um, Miller is considered a right wing nut (Randian actually, as I understand it,) and his Batman in TDKR is viewed as the embodiment of his views.

This is one thing I never fully got, regarding this "interpretations" of Nolan's Batman; He's not at all "right wing." He is the clear contrast to the rest of the "1%" in Rises. Not that being considered in the "1%" makes one "right wing."

The "extraordinary rendition" parallel in TDK is certainly relevant to the comparisons with the Nolan/Bale Bat, but this also brings up the HUGE difference between PRIVATE actions, and STATE actions.

Not that an action suddenly becomes moral, or immoral, solely based around whether it is the government committing it, or a private individual.
Kidnapping is still kidnapping, theft is still theft.

The BIGGEST difference between Batman and ANY government wing/party/action is principle. Batman acts on principle, doing his best to never betray what he is fighting for. Batman fights on principle, for justice.
The state is EXACTLY the opposite.

As the Joker says, he truly is incorruptible.

gdw 09-30-2013 11:06 AM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thorstone (Post 26768333)
Nolan touched on this darker authoritarian side of Batman in The Dark Knight-- what do you think of Batman as a vehicle for the modern surveillance state?

Will we see bat-drones flying around Gotham? Will Batman have a surveillance satellite? Will this be the crux of the conflict between Batman and Superman?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
At the end of Man of Steel, Superman destroys a surveillance drone, so we know that this Superman stands against such technologies.

I don't think we "know" that at all. The only thing we can know for certain is that he is against such being used against HIMSELF.

We MIGHT be able to ASSUME that he is similarly against such being used against the populace in general.

DACrowe 09-30-2013 05:42 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
I feel like we've been down this road before...

http://blog.static.abine.com/blog/wp.../06/3us7j8.jpg

Oh, poor Lucius Fox. Only a few years away from finding out that Batman was just the beginning... :oldrazz:

I actually love parallels and rich subtext in art. And I think Nolan proved many snobs wrong when The Dark Knight proved to be one the most interesting post-9/11 films ever made. However, after watching how clumsily--to the point of being nearly insulting--Goyer and Snyder handled such themes themselves in Man of Steel, complete with Superman shrugging as skyscrapers collapsed and Zod's machine causing planes to crash into buildings...

Yeah, let's not go down there. I'm all for making Batman's methods murky or morally ambiguous. Nolan toyed with it. Frank Miller and Alan Moore fully embraced it (though for different means). Snyder is too tone deaf to pull that off with finesse.

DACrowe 09-30-2013 05:45 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roach (Post 26775465)
Nolan's Batman represented how the world see's America.

The world sees America as the hero it deserves, but not the one it needs? Or is it the other way around? Honestly, as that movie came out during the Bush years, either way it would be more flattering than the real international image we were then maintaining.

DACrowe 09-30-2013 05:48 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie Dean (Post 26926205)
I much prefer Frank Miller's anti-authority rebel Batman to Nolan's Right Wing Batman.

Miller didn't see Batman as anti-authority. He sees Batman as the ULTIMATE authority. Batman essentially becomes Gotham's dictator at the end of the series until Superman "takes him out." And even then, he goes underground to build up a whole army, waiting until the time is right to take control. In many ways, his Batman is closer to Nolan's Bane than Nolan's Batman. Scary, but true.

Eddie Dean 09-30-2013 06:20 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Miller took a heavy conservative stance post 9/11, I still think his Batman works as an anti-authority figure. There's a heavy revolutionary theme in all his works, in DKSA Batman is in full on terrorist mode. Miller uses Batman as a way to shake up the established order, whether it be a crime riddled Gotham or a future dystopia. I guess I see Miller's Batman as a symbol of change, while his Superman is the ultimate protector of the status quo.

Rodrigo90 09-30-2013 07:39 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
The left wing Batman, imo, is a very dangerous character.

Miller had him become the law, his law. If he continued down that path, he would've become like the Punisher.

That's not Batman to me. It's like a corrupt Judge Dredd or something!

He's supposed to abide by the law to keep himself from becoming something like that.
Of course he bends the law, but he doesn't proclaim himself above and beyond it.

smallville fan 09-30-2013 11:30 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DACrowe (Post 26934567)
However, after watching how clumsily--to the point of being nearly insulting--Goyer and Snyder handled such themes themselves in Man of Steel, complete with Superman shrugging as skyscrapers collapsed and Zod's machine causing planes to crash into buildings...

Yeah, let's not go down there. I'm all for making Batman's methods murky or morally ambiguous. Nolan toyed with it. Frank Miller and Alan Moore fully embraced it (though for different means). Snyder is too tone deaf to pull that off with finesse.

I think you should wait for the sequel before you reserve judgement for how Snyder and Co. handle those sorts of themes.

DACrowe 10-01-2013 01:42 AM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Not really. This is not television. They spent several years creating Man of Steel. I should not have to wait for a sequel to judge how they handled the character or any subtext therein. And when it came to creating parallels to our world or "grounding" it, their results were messy, lazy and ugly. More a reach toward something "cool" than intellectually interesting.

And I actually liked that Superman movie! Just judging this part of it fairly.

smallville fan 10-01-2013 02:44 AM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DACrowe (Post 26937079)
Not really. This is not television. They spent several years creating Man of Steel. I should not have to wait for a sequel to judge how they handled the character or any subtext therein. And when it came to creating parallels to our world or "grounding" it, their results were messy, lazy and ugly. More a reach toward something "cool" than intellectually interesting.

And I actually liked that Superman movie! Just judging this part of it fairly.

They also spent more years putting together Superman/Batman.

MessiahDecoy123 10-01-2013 06:07 AM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Batman is anti-criminal.

If you're corrupt, Batman will oppose you. Whether your a local, state-wide, national, or global authority, it doesn't matter.

Batman isn't anti-government because he doesn't like the IRS, he's only anti-government because of the corruption involved.

Rodrigo90 10-01-2013 06:18 AM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
In Miller's take, he goes above and beyond his role as Gotham's protector.

That to me, is the first time Batman has gone mad with power.

But....is it justifiable and right of him to do that?

thorstone 10-05-2013 04:10 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DACrowe (Post 26934567)
Goyer and Snyder handled such themes themselves in Man of Steel, complete with Superman shrugging as skyscrapers collapsed and Zod's machine causing planes to crash into buildings

What did you expect him to do-- use his magic rebuild-the-wall-of-China powers to stop the buildings from falling?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdw (Post 26932189)
I don't think we "know" that at all. The only thing we can know for certain is that he is against such being used against HIMSELF.

We MIGHT be able to ASSUME that he is similarly against such being used against the populace in general.

That would make him a hypocrite. "Freedom is good enough for me but not the slaves."

Shikamaru 10-05-2013 04:21 PM

Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smallville fan (Post 26937163)
They also spent more years putting together Superman/Batman.

Actually, yes.


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