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-   -   The relationship between Batman and the Joker (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=465859)

Oswald 09-25-2013 05:54 AM

The relationship between Batman and the Joker
 
This is an important matter which is still today very obscure and ambiguous. I don't think Joker is the worst Batman enemy or the one he hates the most, he's the most popular and probably the most important villain in Batman's mythology, but not the villain he hates the most. I actually think Bruce likes the Joker, and his hatred against him is just superficial. He has saved him from a sure death in so many stories (now I remember the film The Dark Knight and the comic arcs Under the Hood and Cacophony) and he always shows an active interest the Joker to continue alive. Why is it?

I think Bruce needs the Joker to balance himself and avoid falling in a big depression. I'll explain it: the madness of Bruce Wayne started the night a mugger killed his parents, and since that moment he has developed a very complex psychosis whose principal reason is to relieve the anxiety and the guilt for the crime. That's the reason why, in first place, he created the figure of Batman, the super-vigilante who should've avoided his parents's homicide, followed by Robin, the representation of the defenceless kid he was when the robbery took place, and the Joker, the human incarnation of the chaos that traumatizes and menaces the Bruce's psyche.

He uses Robins in his battle against crimen cause he needs to protect them from violence to calm down the feeling of abandonment he has since the night of the robbery, and when one of those Robins is killed (by the Joker, of course) that isn't bad for Batman, on the contrary, that's fantastic, like gasoline in the motor of his paranoia. A Robin murdered means a new reason to continue fighting, and the Robins can always be replaced, but if the Joker was killed... who could replace him? There's not any other criminal as perfect to Batman as the Joker, any other criminal who represents so well the role of chaos in Bruce Wayne's psychosis, that is the reason why he not only doesn't kill him but saves him from death over and over again, cause without Joker he's afraid of falling in a dark hole perhaps he can't run away from...

I've arrived to these conclusion after reading Under the Hood, and I hope the responsibles of the new Batman films have in count these considerations when they write the new films (although I don't have too much confidence about it...).

Oscorp 09-25-2013 07:35 AM

Re: The relationship between Batman and the Joker
 
Not movie related, but another example of showing this in popular media is Batman's reaction to Joker's death in the DLC Harley Quinn's Revenge for Arkham City :)

Very good post btw.

gwynplaine 11-25-2013 10:21 PM

Re: The relationship between Batman and the Joker
 
"You complete me."

Wesley Dodds 11-25-2013 10:32 PM

Re: The relationship between Batman and the Joker
 
I guess part of why Batman doesn't kill is because he feels that deep down no-one is beyond saving. Even from themselves.
In this way, The Joker is the absolute living embodiment of one of his core beliefs.

It's not that he likes him at all -in fact, paradoxically, I think Bats despises the guy- but if he could redeem The Joker, make him see the error of his ways then that, in a way, would be his greatest triumph, no?

I mean The Killing Joke -THE Joker story- basically begins and ends with Bats trying to reason with the guy on a human level...

Just a theory.

Boom 11-25-2013 10:57 PM

Re: The relationship between Batman and the Joker
 
I'm sure that deep down, there is a twisted part of Batman that "needs" The Joker, but I would hardly say that he likes him. At all.

Eddie Dean 11-25-2013 11:24 PM

Re: The relationship between Batman and the Joker
 
http://cdn2.screenjunkies.com/wp-con...-community.gif

Oswald 11-26-2013 04:33 AM

Re: The relationship between Batman and the Joker
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wesley Dodds (Post 27283847)
I guess part of why Batman doesn't kill is because he feels that deep down no-one is beyond saving. Even from themselves.
In this way, The Joker is the absolute living embodiment of one of his core beliefs.

It's not that he likes him at all -in fact, paradoxically, I think Bats despises the guy- but if he could redeem The Joker, make him see the error of his ways then that, in a way, would be his greatest triumph, no?

I mean The Killing Joke -THE Joker story- basically begins and ends with Bats trying to reason with the guy on a human level...

Just a theory.

I think it's more the contrary: when Batman tries to dialogue with the Joker he's talking with himself, with his crazy and sociopath side, he isn't trying to change the Joker, he's just trying to understand him. If you read Cacophony of Kevin Smith there's a similar scene to the ending of The Killing Joke where Bruce asks the Joker if he really wants to kill him and receives a hard but predictable reply. Bruce doesn't pretend change anything, he's in a delirant crusade with no end and the Joker is his partner in that spiral, the one who forces him to see the madness of Batman, so Bruce needs him, perhaps in the same way he needs Alfred or Gordon.

Oswald 11-26-2013 04:36 AM

Re: The relationship between Batman and the Joker
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boom (Post 27283993)
I'm sure that deep down, there is a twisted part of Batman that "needs" The Joker, but I would hardly say that he likes him. At all.

He doesn't like him, he likes hating him, that's different.


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