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Mr. Dent 10-25-2013 01:27 AM

This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
...seems to be very heavy. The case could be made that it's based more off of that story arc than the Winter Soldier. For those who don't know:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D.is a comic book storyline from the 80's where S.H.I.E.L.D. was infiltrated by AIM which lead to a civil war within the organization.


Several characters and concepts that were introduced in that arc are also appearing here, namely Alexander Pierce, Jasper Sitwell, Jack Rollins, and the World Security Council (or the S.H.I.E.L.D. Board of Directors as it was known there).

Going by the trailer and other things, I can surmise that:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
We can supplant AIM with HYDRA as the organization that infiltrates S.H.I.E.L.D. Alexander Pierce, certain members of the WSC, and Jasper Sitwell are all HYDRA and Jack Rollins and Brock Rumlow will likely be converted if they're not already HYDRA operatives. Using the influence that they've incurred over the years, the HYDRA agents are using the Battle of New York as an opportunity to have S.H.I.E.L.D. become more militant and build tons of war machines. Nick Fury finds out about the infiltration, Alexander Pierce hires the Winter Soldier to assassinate Nick Fury and brands Cap, Widow, and Falcon as traitors and blacklists them.

Also, it's possible that in the MCU the Russians who were using Winter Soldier during the Cold War were actually HYDRA agents using him to influence the war in their favor, which is why Pierce knows of him and explains his line in the trailer of "you've helped shape the century" - if he's talking to Winter Soldier.

Also, Pierce probably assigns Sharon Carter to keep an eye on Cap at the start of the movie.

All this basically sets up HYDRA as a Patriots (Illuminati) type organization in the MCU, to use a MGS comparison since this movie is probably the closest thing we'll ever get to a MGS movie, that has been in the shadows of society ever since the end of WWII and has included powerful individuals across the world at all levels of government.


As a side note, I really like just how much this movie is taking elements from all kinds of Cap and SHIELD stories and mashing them all together here in one coherent movie (...hopefully). We've got the Agent Rogers costume which matches with him being a SHIELD agents, we've got the Triskelion, we've got the Winter Soldier and Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. storylines, Crossbones, Sharon Carter, Falcon, Batroc. It's unbelievable that we're able to get this much Captain America lore in a blockbuster movie. Thought it would never happen.

psylockolussus 10-25-2013 01:36 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
I feel the same way, Mr. Dent. I didn't think it would happen.

cph9fa 10-25-2013 01:52 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
There seems to be an ideological clash between Fury's line "SHIELD takes the world as it is, not as we like it to be." vs. Pierce's "To build a better world, sometimes means tearing the old one down." Fury is concerned with "neutralizing threats", while Pierce is "building" and "shaping". The later sentiment matches the apparent militarization of SHIELD.

And I definitely agree "shaped the century/do it one more time" is towards WS. As he is finishing the line, you see WS grabbing a gun, and shooting the exploding disk-thing at Fury.

cherokeesam 10-25-2013 08:43 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent (Post 27081815)
...seems to be very heavy. The case could be made that it's based more off of that story arc than the Winter Soldier. For those who don't know:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D.is a comic book storyline from the 80's where S.H.I.E.L.D. was infiltrated by AIM which lead to a civil war within the organization.


Several characters and concepts that were introduced in that arc are also appearing here, namely Alexander Pierce, Jasper Sitwell, Jack Rollins, and the World Security Council (or the S.H.I.E.L.D. Board of Directors as it was known there).

Going by the trailer and other things, I can surmise that:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
We can supplant AIM with HYDRA as the organization that infiltrates S.H.I.E.L.D. Alexander Pierce, certain members of the WSC, and Jasper Sitwell are all HYDRA and Jack Rollins and Brock Rumlow will likely be converted if they're not already HYDRA operatives. Using the influence that they've incurred over the years, the HYDRA agents are using the Battle of New York as an opportunity to have S.H.I.E.L.D. become more militant and build tons of war machines. Nick Fury finds out about the infiltration, Alexander Pierce hires the Winter Soldier to assassinate Nick Fury and brands Cap, Widow, and Falcon as traitors and blacklists them.

Also, it's possible that in the MCU the Russians who were using Winter Soldier during the Cold War were actually HYDRA agents using him to influence the war in their favor, which is why Pierce knows of him and explains his line in the trailer of "you've helped shape the century" - if he's talking to Winter Soldier.

Also, Pierce probably assigns Sharon Carter to keep an eye on Cap at the start of the movie.

All this basically sets up HYDRA as a Patriots (Illuminati) type organization in the MCU, to use a MGS comparison since this movie is probably the closest thing we'll ever get to a MGS movie, that has been in the shadows of society ever since the end of WWII and has included powerful individuals across the world at all levels of government.


As a side note, I really like just how much this movie is taking elements from all kinds of Cap and SHIELD stories and mashing them all together here in one coherent movie (...hopefully). We've got the Agent Rogers costume which matches with him being a SHIELD agents, we've got the Triskelion, we've got the Winter Soldier and Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. storylines, Crossbones, Sharon Carter, Falcon, Batroc. It's unbelievable that we're able to get this much Captain America lore in a blockbuster movie. Thought it would never happen.

I agree with pretty much all of your assessment of the Fury vs. SHIELD angle, but I'll add this in regards to WS himself:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
It might turn out to be that WS' handlers/creators weren't Russian in the MCU at all, and were only indirectly linked to HYDRA....

....Instead, I think he might have been SHIELD all along.

See, to me, it all depends on whether Arnim Zola is still working for SHIELD. I believe he is. At the end of CATFA, he definitely is. And I think CATWS will show that he became a Werner von Braun type figure, who went on to make advanced weapons and tech for his former enemies in SHIELD, up to and including his (in)famous android body/AI. And since we know Zola was the one who at least got the ball rolling on Bucky's brainwashing/body alterations in CATFA, he could've been the one to continue development on Bucky much later.

The area in the Alps where Bucky went down was likely conquered/occupied by the Allies shortly after Red Skull's apparent death and HYDRA's apparent demise. I think it was friendlies who found Bucky's body, and they would've likely returned the "remains" to the SSR as soon as they ID'ed him.

Now, suppose Bucky is still very much dead, and tagged and bodybagged, and his corpse prepped for a veteran's burial in Arlington or wherever. Zola --- still working for the SSR, remember --- in the name of perverse scientific curiosity, examines the body....and discovers that a spark of life remains there due to the experimentation he conducted on him.

He basically turns Bucky's corpse into a Frankenstein's monster of sorts, and eventually begins working with the HYDRA infiltrators in SSR/SHIELD into making Bucky the Winter Soldier we all know and love. Hell, maybe we'll even see some of that infiltration begin in the Peggy Carter TV show.

TheFBI 10-25-2013 11:43 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
You can't make it so everyone ends up hating SHIELD. It would kill AoS

Loki882 10-25-2013 11:49 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
I think that Fury might go rogue along with Cap, BW, and maybe Falcon. Fury's ruthless and can manipulative (coughCoulsoncough), but he does have lines that he won't cross.

M-2 10-25-2013 04:48 PM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
I think Fury ends up on the run.... I think that Maria Hill might step up as the director of SHIELD at the end of this film, with Fury in hiding.

R_Hythlodeus 10-25-2013 04:51 PM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cherokeesam (Post 27082565)
I agree with pretty much all of your assessment of the Fury vs. SHIELD angle, but I'll add this in regards to WS himself:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
It might turn out to be that WS' handlers/creators weren't Russian in the MCU at all, and were only indirectly linked to HYDRA....

....Instead, I think he might have been SHIELD all along.

See, to me, it all depends on whether Arnim Zola is still working for SHIELD. I believe he is. At the end of CATFA, he definitely is. And I think CATWS will show that he became a Werner von Braun type figure, who went on to make advanced weapons and tech for his former enemies in SHIELD, up to and including his (in)famous android body/AI. And since we know Zola was the one who at least got the ball rolling on Bucky's brainwashing/body alterations in CATFA, he could've been the one to continue development on Bucky much later.

The area in the Alps where Bucky went down was likely conquered/occupied by the Allies shortly after Red Skull's apparent death and HYDRA's apparent demise. I think it was friendlies who found Bucky's body, and they would've likely returned the "remains" to the SSR as soon as they ID'ed him.

Now, suppose Bucky is still very much dead, and tagged and bodybagged, and his corpse prepped for a veteran's burial in Arlington or wherever. Zola --- still working for the SSR, remember --- in the name of perverse scientific curiosity, examines the body....and discovers that a spark of life remains there due to the experimentation he conducted on him.

He basically turns Bucky's corpse into a Frankenstein's monster of sorts, and eventually begins working with the HYDRA infiltrators in SSR/SHIELD into making Bucky the Winter Soldier we all know and love. Hell, maybe we'll even see some of that infiltration begin in the Peggy Carter TV show.

Well, at least I can tell you that the Russians never would have found him in the Alps. That region was liberated by the US, GB and the French. No Russians anywhere near the Alps except for a small part of Upper Austria which is mostly the northern border of the mountains and from the scenery presented in CATFA doesn't fit that part.
http://www.landesarchiv-bw.de/sixcms...aufteilung.png

Mr. Dent 10-25-2013 06:12 PM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by M-2 (Post 27085127)
I think Fury ends up on the run.... I think that Maria Hill might step up as the director of SHIELD at the end of this film, with Fury in hiding.

Fury ends up in the hospital after the attack as you can see in the trailer.

cherokeesam 10-25-2013 06:43 PM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus (Post 27085139)
Well, at least I can tell you that the Russians never would have found him in the Alps. That region was liberated by the US, GB and the French. No Russians anywhere near the Alps except for a small part of Upper Austria which is mostly the northern border of the mountains and from the scenery presented in CATFA doesn't fit that part.
http://www.landesarchiv-bw.de/sixcms...aufteilung.png

Yeah, MCU Bucky was almost certainly recovered by either the remnants of HYDRA (he was in their territory, after all) or by the Allies, who would've turned him back over to the SSR.

It may change a good chunk of Brubaker's mythology of Winter Soldier, but it seems pretty evident that the Russians aren't going to play a part in his evolution. And that may be just fine with Marvel/Disney anyway, as they might not want to alienate/offend potential Russian markets with "oh great, another American movie where we're the bad guys."

Suzanne78 10-25-2013 06:50 PM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Love all these theories in this thread. Definitely going to start reading Fury vs. SHIELD if it's in the Marvel Unlimited catalogue. It's all so intriguing!

I'm starting to get a feeling that Sharon Carter
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
is either a SHIELD double agent spying on Cap under Alexander's orders, as it does sound like much of her scenes are with Redford, but she'll either be also working with Fury or will change sides during the movie. It would deftly work in Sharon's fluid loyalties from the comics. I think by the end of the movie, her and Cap won't be a couple necessarily. I spec that they'll have flirted a little, he thinks she's someone else throughout the entire movie, then the truth comes about who she really is, where her loyalties lie, and who her great aunt is. Then I think at the end of the film, her and Steve kind of decide to start over now that everything's out in the air. Of course this could all be moot by the next spoiler if it shows Sharon and Cap making out, LOL!!


However, I'm putting all of that in spoiler bars just in case it pans out.

Loki882 10-25-2013 10:22 PM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cherokeesam (Post 27085807)
Yeah, MCU Bucky was almost certainly recovered by either the remnants of HYDRA (he was in their territory, after all) or by the Allies, who would've turned him back over to the SSR.

It may change a good chunk of Brubaker's mythology of Winter Soldier, but it seems pretty evident that the Russians aren't going to play a part in his evolution. And that may be just fine with Marvel/Disney anyway, as they might not want to alienate/offend potential Russian markets with "oh great, another American movie where we're the bad guys."

How do you know that the Russians won't play a role exactly? For all we know, Redford is Lukin in disguise. Also, it's not like Hollywood has ever bent historical accuracy before, except for all the time.

cherokeesam 10-26-2013 01:05 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki882 (Post 27087145)
How do you know that the Russians won't play a role exactly? For all we know, Redford is Lukin in disguise. Also, it's not like Hollywood has ever bent historical accuracy before, except for all the time.

Redford is certainly *somebody* in disguise, and Lukin is a popular guess. But consider that there's not any real Russian characters listed in the cast other than Tasha (and "Russian Spider," whatever the **** that means); and that there's been nothing in the trailers or the set pics or the rumor mills or leaks about Russia or Russians; and that virtually all the action takes place in the good ol' US of A; and that it probably wouldn't be a shrewd marketing move by Disney/Marvel to try to sell CATWS to Russian audiences as a movie about Rooskies trying to take over 'Murica.

We all know who the villain group is by now, and they've gone global after starting out as a Nazi splinter group. I don't think we need to look any farther than that.

xeno000 10-26-2013 04:41 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cherokeesam (Post 27082565)
I agree with pretty much all of your assessment of the Fury vs. SHIELD angle, but I'll add this in regards to WS himself:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
It might turn out to be that WS' handlers/creators weren't Russian in the MCU at all, and were only indirectly linked to HYDRA....

....Instead, I think he might have been SHIELD all along.

See, to me, it all depends on whether Arnim Zola is still working for SHIELD. I believe he is. At the end of CATFA, he definitely is. And I think CATWS will show that he became a Werner von Braun type figure, who went on to make advanced weapons and tech for his former enemies in SHIELD, up to and including his (in)famous android body/AI. And since we know Zola was the one who at least got the ball rolling on Bucky's brainwashing/body alterations in CATFA, he could've been the one to continue development on Bucky much later.

The area in the Alps where Bucky went down was likely conquered/occupied by the Allies shortly after Red Skull's apparent death and HYDRA's apparent demise. I think it was friendlies who found Bucky's body, and they would've likely returned the "remains" to the SSR as soon as they ID'ed him.

Now, suppose Bucky is still very much dead, and tagged and bodybagged, and his corpse prepped for a veteran's burial in Arlington or wherever. Zola --- still working for the SSR, remember --- in the name of perverse scientific curiosity, examines the body....and discovers that a spark of life remains there due to the experimentation he conducted on him.

He basically turns Bucky's corpse into a Frankenstein's monster of sorts, and eventually begins working with the HYDRA infiltrators in SSR/SHIELD into making Bucky the Winter Soldier we all know and love. Hell, maybe we'll even see some of that infiltration begin in the Peggy Carter TV show.

Where do you get the idea that Arnim Zola was "working for SHIELD" at the end of CATFA? He was in SSR custody, yes, and Col. Philips forced information out of him, but that does not imply that he was working for them. Since we haven't been shown what became of Zola after the war we don't even know where he ended up. He could have been one of the scientists whom the US government recruited, or he could as easily have escaped with the aid of his surviving HYDRA allies.

cherokeesam 10-26-2013 09:00 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by xeno000 (Post 27088675)
Where do you get the idea that Arnim Zola was "working for SHIELD" at the end of CATFA? He was in SSR custody, yes, and Col. Philips forced information out of him, but that does not imply that he was working for them. Since we haven't been shown what became of Zola after the war we don't even know where he ended up. He could have been one of the scientists whom the US government recruited, or he could as easily have escaped with the aid of his surviving HYDRA allies.

Sure he could. And I don't rule out either possibility at all. The fact is, Zola's whereabouts and situation post-CATFA are completely unknown right now, and that's exactly the way Feige & Company wants it.

Zola's going to be big. He's the ace in the hole, and that's why they're keeping him under wraps, and are perfectly happy that nobody's interested enough to ask about him or Toby Jones. The only question, that will almost definitely be answered in CATWS, is if Zola escaped/defected/spy-swapped to HYDRA or some other bad guys in the Cold War years, or if he's been in SHIELD all along. I'm betting on the latter.

cph9fa 10-26-2013 09:56 PM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Yeah, Zola's whereabouts and activities are definitely one of the big questions I'm looking forward to having answered. I remember an interview where he said he thought fans'd be pleased by how his character was interpreted, but I've been surprised to hear nothing beyond that. As you say, Marvel is doing a great job of keeping him off the radar.

Personally, I think he ties in with a recent AoS episode as well.

Mysteryman 10-26-2013 11:31 PM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Would that be the fourth episode that dealt with controlling people from a distance with prostethic implants that could potentially be detonated with the push of a button?

cph9fa 10-27-2013 12:05 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Yes, it would. Miniaturized, non-Stark-Tech robotics.

Also, I agree with Sam that the Russians probably have nothing to do with WS (although, his arm does have that red star...)

cherokeesam 10-27-2013 08:36 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cph9fa (Post 27092481)
Yes, it would. Miniaturized, non-Stark-Tech robotics.

Also, I agree with Sam that the Russians probably have nothing to do with WS (although, his arm does have that red star...)

Eh, a red star is generic enough to have more meanings beyond "USSR," so that one gets a free pass....it's not like it's a sickle and hammer sticker on his arm.

I'd be happy as a clam if they *do* keep the Russian angle as an homage to Brubaker; I just don't see any evidence at all of that happening. Plus, Marvel Studios has been pretty PC in not trying to offend any one particular ethnicity in their movies (Chinese, Germans, Arabs, etc.).

M-2 10-27-2013 10:18 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cherokeesam (Post 27093405)
Eh, a red star is generic enough to have more meanings beyond "USSR," so that one gets a free pass....it's not like it's a sickle and hammer sticker on his arm.

I'd be happy as a clam if they *do* keep the Russian angle as an homage to Brubaker; I just don't see any evidence at all of that happening. Plus, Marvel Studios has been pretty PC in not trying to offend any one particular ethnicity in their movies (Chinese, Germans, Arabs, etc.).

Maybe the Russians just built the arm, or maybe Ivan Vanko's Dad did before he defected.

The star is just there to represent Russian Technology!

TheFBI 10-27-2013 11:15 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
They could also explain it as an opposite for Cap's star. Steve's is white and pure, while the Winter Soldiers is red and bloody

InternetPeople 10-27-2013 12:45 PM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Look close enough and the arm will probably say "Made in China"

Hyde 10-27-2013 12:56 PM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
Lmao

BullMcGiveny 10-28-2013 06:39 AM

Re: This movies connections to Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (potential SPOILERS)
 
I find this theory dodgy, if I may say so. Mostly, because NFVS isn't a Captain America story, and while yes, the movies do mix a bunch of comics storylines, they generally mix up storylines about the character that movie is about.

As for the characters, sure, those characters were involved, but were in the same roles? Were Rollins and Pierce and Sitwell villainous characters?

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus (Post 27085139)
Well, at least I can tell you that the Russians never would have found him in the Alps. That region was liberated by the US, GB and the French. No Russians anywhere near the Alps except for a small part of Upper Austria which is mostly the northern border of the mountains and from the scenery presented in CATFA doesn't fit that part.
http://www.landesarchiv-bw.de/sixcms...aufteilung.png

True, but never put it beyond Marvel (or any studio) to take liberties with history. I mean, the last movie has a French resistance operative getting captured and put in a POW camp. In Italy.

Even if they didn't, they could just say say that whenever Bucky fell off the train, a Russian commando platoon was on an unrelated mission in the region and retrieved him.


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