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-   -   SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean? (http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=467625)

Keyser Soze 10-30-2013 06:19 PM

SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Obviously, SPOILER ALERT!

Seriously, don't look unless you want spoiled!

You still here?

Alright then.

At the end of Thor: The Dark World (the end of the main film, not including the post-credits stuff), Thor and Odin talk in the throne room. They mourn the death of Loki, with Thor remarking that Loki died honourably. Odin offers Thor the throne of Asgard, but Thor turns it down, saying that, for all his faults, Loki probably had a more suitable temprament for the throne than he does. He says that he would rather serve Asgard and all the Nine Realms in his own way. He leaves, with Odin's veiled blessing. Or so it seems....

As once Thor's gone, "Odin" morphs into Loki, not dead after all, and now the de facto ruler of Asgard, posing as his adoptive father! And in the end credits visual montage, the last image we're left with is that ominous shot of Loki on the throne.

So, this brings up a couple of questions.

First up, what exactly is the chronology of what happened? I take it that Odin sent a guard to Svartalfheim, who Loki offed and replaced. So, in the conversation in Odin's throne room where the guard is talking to Odin, telling him that Odin is dead, I take it at this point it's actually Loki talking to Odin. So far, so straight forward.

But here's where it gets confusing. On first assumption, we might be supposed to think that Loki has somehow forcibly taken the throne... imprisoned the real Odin away somewhere while he poses as him. But I don't buy that. How could Loki overpower Odin? And where could Loki hide him where he would go unfound?

No, I have a different theory. Watching that scene with Odin and the guard, something in Odin's face suggested to me that he saw through the disguise and knew he was talking to Loki. And what if, rather than Loki stealing the throne from Odin, it was given to him willingly? What if, weary and grieving, Odin DID want to abdicate, as Loki-Odin indicated to Thor in the end conversation? But what if Odin knew Thor would never accept the role of his heir? And what if he figured out that the best means of keeping Loki in line would be to give him a measure of power? So, Odin goes into self-imposed exile - as he has been known to do in the comics - and Loki is left to run Asgard in his place? But of course the people of the Nine Realms wouldn't accept the hated Loki as their leader, so Loki maintains the form of Odin while on the seat?

The other question is: was Loki running a long con, staging his death to win over Thor's trust again and make himself out to be a martyr, so he could be in position to take the throne through nefarious means? Or was his sacrifice genuine, and the throne-taking subterfuge only a spontaneous act of opportunism? I'm inclined to lean towards the latter, as for it to be the former too many things outwith Loki's control would have had to have gone just how he wanted them to. But I admire the filmmakers for making it just ambiguous enough to be read either way.

CyclopsWasRight 10-30-2013 06:22 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
I took it as Loki imprisoned Odin and took the throne while pretending to be him.

Quite conveniant for Frigga to be dead as she's the one person who know Odin closely enough to see through the deception.

Mjölnir 10-30-2013 06:30 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CyclopsWasRight (Post 27117143)
I took it as Loki imprisoned Odin and took the throne while pretending to be him.

Quite conveniant for Frigga to be dead as she's the one person who know Odin closely enough to see through the deception.

Yes, I too think Loki found a way to get Odin imprisoned somewhere.

As for convenient, being a good schemer is all about taking the action that's the most advantageous to the current situation.

Hyde 10-30-2013 06:30 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Honestly, I thought the ending was stupid.

CyclopsWasRight 10-30-2013 06:35 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mjölnir (Post 27117191)
As for convenient, being a good schemer is all about taking the action that's the most advantageous to the current situation.

Didn't think of it like that.

One thing though Loki seemed to feel for Frigga. i wonder was it an act?

Caode 10-30-2013 06:36 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyde (Post 27117193)
Honestly, I thought the ending was stupid.

I genuinely think... that last shot of Loki revealing himself as 'Odin' was added in re-shoots.. it just seemed too 'real' in the film to me that Loki had actually ended up giving his life in hoping to achieve some sort of vengeance for his 'mother'. The thing for me that sort of solidified that was when Thor visited Loki in his prison after his mothers death, Loki trying to hide his actual demeanour from Thor, he seemed genuinely affected by what had happened and to me seemed to crave vengeance at any cost (even going to the extent of pretending to betray Thor to give Thor a shot at destroying the Aether and taking out Malekith, all while shielding Jane during that encounter).

Something about that final shot just seemed odd and tacked on to me. It is a plot point that does give them something good to work from in future films but I don't think that was the original ending at all. I'll need to see the film again though before I make a final judgement on that so don't take that as my final thoughts on it, that's just from my first screening, going to go see it again on Friday. That's the problem with a 'trickster' like Loki.. you can never be too sure just what exactly is going on...especially how his character behaves in Thor: The Dark World.

Just my thoughts for now... don't take it as final judgement.

Keyser Soze 10-30-2013 06:38 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CyclopsWasRight (Post 27117213)
Didn't think of it like that.

One thing though Loki seemed to feel for Frigga. i wonder was it an act?

Nah, I think Loki's love for Frigga was genuine. That was laced throughout the film. And I even recall reading the first draft script for the first movie way back, and there was a whole lot of stuff about how Loki was always estranged from Odin but had a close relationship with Frigga that didn't fully transfer into the eventual film, but which they seem to have carried over more here.

Mjölnir 10-30-2013 06:40 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CyclopsWasRight (Post 27117213)
Didn't think of it like that.

One thing though Loki seemed to feel for Frigga. i wonder was it an act?

No, he definitely loved her. Remember how he even created an illusion of her so he could have a conversation with her in the dungeon.

I also think we're to draw the conclusion that Frigga was the one that taught Loki magic and therefor they've had a special bond.

CyclopsWasRight 10-30-2013 06:41 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caode (Post 27117221)
I genuinely think... that last shot of Loki revealing himself as 'Odin' was added in re-shoots.. it just seemed too 'real' in the film to me that Loki had actually ended up giving his life in hoping to achieve some sort of vengeance for his 'mother'. The thing for me that sort of solidified that was when Thor visited Loki in his prison after his mothers death, Loki trying to hide his actual demeanour from Thor, he seemed genuinely affected by what had happened and to me seemed to crave vengeance at any cost (even going to the extent of pretending to betray Thor to give Thor a shot at destroying the Aether and taking out Malekith, all while shielding Jane during that encounter).

Something about that final shot just seemed odd and tacked on to me. It is a plot point that does give them something good to work from in future films but I don't think that was the original ending at all. I'll need to see the film again though before I make a final judgement on that so don't take that as my final thoughts on it, that's just from my first screening, going to go see it again on Friday. That's the problem with a 'trickster' like Loki.. you can never be too sure just what exactly is going on...especially how his character behaves in Thor: The Dark World.

Just my thoughts for now... don't take it as final judgement.

Given the popularity of the character i can easily see them changing his real death in the movie so as to not kill him off.

Caode 10-30-2013 06:41 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyser Soze (Post 27117235)
Nah, I think Loki's love for Frigga was genuine. That was laced throughout the film. And I even recall reading the first draft script for the first movie way back, and there was a whole lot of stuff about how Loki was always estranged from Odin but had a close relationship with Frigga that didn't fully transfer into the eventual film, but which they seem to have carried over more here.

It definitely seemed genuine to me, in fact it was one of the more genuine and focused on aspects of Loki's character in the film. Especially in the scene they share together in the prison chamber... and it's further displayed in the scene between him and Thor straight after her death, with Loki laying on the ground looking fairly dishevelled and dejected.

Caode 10-30-2013 06:43 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CyclopsWasRight (Post 27117247)
Given the popularity of the character i can easily see them changing his real death in the movie so as to not kill him off.

Yeah that's what I was thinking too, they might have thought after the fact "hang on a minute, we can't kill him off" and brought him back in that way, regardless it would only have been a matter of time, whether in a future Thor or Avengers, until they brought him back somehow.. dead or not.

CosmicPinchy 10-30-2013 06:52 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Alan Taylor said the reshoots they did for Loki were of him shapeshifting and of him in chains. Not the end scene.

Mjölnir 10-30-2013 06:58 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Yeah, I found the end scene to be too significant to just throw in as it creates huge implications on future stories. If they just wanted him alive they could have done it in a smaller way.

speno94 10-30-2013 08:23 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Looking back at all the Thor 2 posters, I came across this one again and I like how it sort of gives away the ending, but you don't know it until you watched the film. Loki sitting there with Odin's sceptre and the broken throne looking mischievous/ambiguous.

This I think shows that the ending wasn't part of the reshoots and was part of the original plan in the script because these where early posters and came out before Alan Taylor announced that they where doing reshoots

http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglopheni...ki-Poster-.jpg

CosmicPinchy 10-30-2013 09:03 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by speno94 (Post 27117735)
Looking back at all the Thor 2 posters, I came across this one again and I like how it sort of gives away the ending, but you don't know it until you watched the film. Loki sitting there with Odin's sceptre and the broken throne looking mischievous/ambiguous.

This I think shows that the ending wasn't part of the reshoots and was part of the original plan in the script because these where early posters and came out before Alan Taylor announced that they where doing reshoots

http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglopheni...ki-Poster-.jpg

Good catch!

jmc 10-30-2013 10:20 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Honestly, I was half expecting the film to end like it did.

ToilesHeroiques 10-30-2013 10:42 PM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
I think Loki is really dead in the middle of the film.

He goes to Helheim => he made a deal with Hela => Odin and Loki swap their places => Loki ascends the throne => THE END !

waffles 10-31-2013 02:27 AM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ToilesHeroiques (Post 27118573)
I think Loki is really dead in the middle of the film.

He goes to Helheim => he made a deal with Hela => Odin and Loki swap their places => Loki ascends the throne => THE END !

I like that as a theory!

We were wondering where Odin went, the best we came up with was that he was taking some personal time to properly mourn the death of Frigga.

spider-neil 10-31-2013 02:45 AM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
My only question is how Loki did best Odin seeing as Odin is one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel Universe.

Batmannerism 10-31-2013 02:56 AM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyser Soze (Post 27117129)
Obviously, SPOILER ALERT!

Seriously, don't look unless you want spoiled!

You still here?

Alright then.

At the end of Thor: The Dark World (the end of the main film, not including the post-credits stuff), Thor and Odin talk in the throne room. They mourn the death of Loki, with Thor remarking that Loki died honourably. Odin offers Thor the throne of Asgard, but Thor turns it down, saying that, for all his faults, Loki probably had a more suitable temprament for the throne than he does. He says that he would rather serve Asgard and all the Nine Realms in his own way. He leaves, with Odin's veiled blessing. Or so it seems....

As once Thor's gone, "Odin" morphs into Loki, not dead after all, and now the de facto ruler of Asgard, posing as his adoptive father! And in the end credits visual montage, the last image we're left with is that ominous shot of Loki on the throne.

So, this brings up a couple of questions.

First up, what exactly is the chronology of what happened? I take it that Odin sent a guard to Svartalfheim, who Loki offed and replaced. So, in the conversation in Odin's throne room where the guard is talking to Odin, telling him that Odin is dead, I take it at this point it's actually Loki talking to Odin. So far, so straight forward.

But here's where it gets confusing. On first assumption, we might be supposed to think that Loki has somehow forcibly taken the throne... imprisoned the real Odin away somewhere while he poses as him. But I don't buy that. How could Loki overpower Odin? And where could Loki hide him where he would go unfound?

No, I have a different theory. Watching that scene with Odin and the guard, something in Odin's face suggested to me that he saw through the disguise and knew he was talking to Loki. And what if, rather than Loki stealing the throne from Odin, it was given to him willingly? What if, weary and grieving, Odin DID want to abdicate, as Loki-Odin indicated to Thor in the end conversation? But what if Odin knew Thor would never accept the role of his heir? And what if he figured out that the best means of keeping Loki in line would be to give him a measure of power? So, Odin goes into self-imposed exile - as he has been known to do in the comics - and Loki is left to run Asgard in his place? But of course the people of the Nine Realms wouldn't accept the hated Loki as their leader, so Loki maintains the form of Odin while on the seat?

The other question is: was Loki running a long con, staging his death to win over Thor's trust again and make himself out to be a martyr, so he could be in position to take the throne through nefarious means? Or was his sacrifice genuine, and the throne-taking subterfuge only a spontaneous act of opportunism? I'm inclined to lean towards the latter, as for it to be the former too many things outwith Loki's control would have had to have gone just how he wanted them to. But I admire the filmmakers for making it just ambiguous enough to be read either way.


Dude. Great thread !! I believe that Loki's "sacrifice" was genuine, although he obviously exaggerated his injuries.

On the "what does it mean front" while it probably means Odin's in deep-freeze somewhere (I don't believe it would be consistent with the Loki we saw in TDW that he would kill Odin, or Thor for that matter), I prefer
your other option....that Odin voluntarily gave him the throne, knowing Thor would not accept it.

But, maybe Odin isn't in exile, but on a mission to recover something (the inifinity gem post-credit scene might be a hint, which BTW I ****ing hated, the Collector came across more like a drag-queen than an elder of the universe. oh well).

Yeah, back to Odin, maybe he's off doing something important and has left Loki in charge voluntarily -which, as you say, would necessitate Loki
being in disguise.

Either way works, but I would like the explanation to be a bit less simple than just that Loki blind-sided Odin and is pretending to be him. Thor's going to freak out when he discovers it's not really Odin, and if it was actually a kind of betrayal by the All-father himself, then that would really
make the brother-rivalry more interesting.

Thanks for putting it out there.

TRM 10-31-2013 03:01 AM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
I think Lokis working a really long con, that he might be doing it for good, but also that Odin wouldnt understand and he did trap him somewhere.

I think Odin is stuck between timelines in the dimension called Limbo. He would have to be removed from time and space if Loki wanted to replace him for good. He would have to trap him somewhere outside of the normal dimensions, somewhere he cant easily return from. I think this for many reasons, but most of all because of some of the comments about GoTG being kind of like ghostbusters in space... I think space phantoms are involved, and space phantoms do a similar trick -- they would switch bodies with people and then trap the real person in Limbo... Thanos may have done this to Collector. If science and magic are the same then maybe Loki does the shifting trick in a different way by drawing images out of other timelines and the other possibilities in the multiverse. Maybe Loki couldnt kill his father, and we see him again after the GoTG start interacting with things through Knowwhere (what comes to be their base, the celestials head that is connected to all spaces and times). Loki slipped him through a rift and he lost time, and space.... basically Odin fell into Limbo, between dimensions and space, and was trapped there by Loki. A dimension that is free of time and kind of magical in nature, where Immortus lives... Unbeknownst to us Loki has also created an entire parallel timeline and generated a new universe through the singularity (a stabilized white hole secretly giving birth to the other timeline) and by supplying the gem to Collector and Thanos, aiding what they will do.

An alternate 31st century has already been created, and parts of this timeline were moving along at Lokis desired pace.. in thor 2s branch of Yggdrasil Loki did manage to make everything go his way, because Loki saw it all play out already through the abyss.... The space phantom planet was destroyed by Thanos and now he is haunted by dead souls that are able to leave Limbo, Immortus saved them at the last second, we all create our own demons. so theyd be in Limbo with Odin and Immortus and later Frigga... Loki couldnt let his mom die on the other side of the timeline. Some of Thor 3 would revisit and expand on some things in Thor 2 and could be overlapping and happening at some of the same times after the guardians of the galaxy learn what will happen by the 31st century.. Half of the universe will be destroyed, this sent Yondu back to Andromeda... who is originally from a 31st century. A Kang survived... but he was forever changed into Immortus and saw the light at the beginning of the universe after it ends... Fox may have the rights to Kang prime, but not Immortus... Immortus secretly trained with the Elders of the Universe and knows what Thanos is up to with Collector. Immortus has a relationship with the grandmaster of time, and forces were already at work from beyond time and space to resurrect Drax and try to stop Thanos and Collector...

herolee10 10-31-2013 03:53 AM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
I seriously doubt that Odin "willingly" gave up the throne. A few good deeds does not change who Loki is in his core and Odin is well aware of what Loki is capable of doing to those less fortunate when placed in a position of power.

Odin wouldn't be so foolish to hand over that power to Loki even if Thor weren't willing to take the throne.

It'd be like taking in a rabid dog who's had a history of attacking people after it just happened to attack someone that you didn't like.

Drz 10-31-2013 04:49 AM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
I like how Thor, who has known his father for years, could have been fooled by a switcheroo.

Smashlilman 10-31-2013 05:15 AM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drz (Post 27119443)
I like how Thor, who has known his father for years, could have been fooled by a switcheroo.

I haven't seen the movie but Loki as know Odin just as long as Thor. Plus Loki also knows how Thor thinks. They don't call him the master of lies for nothing.

Moonwing 10-31-2013 05:18 AM

Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drz (Post 27119443)
I like how Thor, who has known his father for years, could have been fooled by a switcheroo.

Thats totally o.k. he can be soooo blind to whatever Loki does it`s not even funny like a switch in the head (it`s even funnier as later, when he finds out, he would have total and complete meltdown).

He could, if he beware of Loki, easily sense his magic (illusion in the cell for example) but it was after some time that he didn't see him and so was free from Loki`s influence. By the end of the movie Loki restored his control over Thor with all that bonding and "I didn't do it for him..."(implementing giving his life for Thor and in revenge of Frigga`s death), so here we go again - Thor would not see anything even if some one yell truth at his face. Now I am waiting for Thor 3 to see epic meltdown it should be something to behold!


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