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RakuMon 11-22-2013 09:14 PM

Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
I wrote this for www.thenerdsofcolor.org.

http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2013/11/2...-steel-sequel/

Like I say in the post, I'm actually okay with Batfleck and the fact that the DK trilogy was finite. Still, from a business standpoint (and even from a creative one), merging MOS with the Dark Knight universe makes more sense than starting from scratch, especially since Nolan's fingerprints were all over MOS to begin with. Also, all of the most recent rumors (older, retired Batman on the outs with Robin) line up neatly with the Batman we know already.

I make these points in the link, but I wanted to share my ideas on how you could bridge Dark Knight Rises and Man of Steel through a 20-minute prologue in the MOS sequel (similar to the Krypton sequence in the first movie).

That's what these bullets are:
  • After the events of Rises, Bruce has seemingly retired to live out the “clean slate” with Selina.
  • While these lovebirds are gallivanting across the European continent, Bruce is still keeping tabs on Blake as he tries to fill the Batman’s shoes.
  • Crime and lawlessness are at an all time high as Gotham is essentially a post-apocalyptic wasteland thanks to Bane and Talia.
  • Blake has decided not to don the mantle of the Bat, but has taken on the identity of Nightwing to protect the city.
  • Unfortunately for Blake, he’s in way over his head. Having never properly trained to be a vigilante superhero, Nightwing is having a hard time keeping Gotham under control.
  • Since Batman eradicated all organized crime two movies ago, the crime Nightwing encounters is more decentralized and harder to tamp down.
  • Also, the “freaks” — folks like Killer Croc, Poison Ivy, Man-Bat, etc. — are all coming out of the woodwork. Perhaps as a result of the radioactive fallout from the bomb?
  • Upon seeing his fair city fall to worse ruin than even during the No Man’s Land of Bane’s reign of terror, Bruce returns to Gotham to help train his protege. For real this time.
  • The problem is that the return of Bruce royally pisses off Blake. You see, for the last year or so, Nightwing was operating under the pretense that Bruce was dead.
  • Now that he knows Bruce was alive the whole time (and left him alone to fend for himself in a post-nuclear-Gotham), he’s none too happy about it, and leaves the Cave.
  • Though the two are estranged, Blake continues to prowl the streets as Nightwing because Bruce is reluctant to put the suit back on.
  • Since his previous Batsuits have all been destroyed, Bruce is fashioning a new one (to resemble a Lee Bermejo-like design, natch) when all of the power in the Batcave goes out, and Zod’s message is played over the Bat-computer.
  • Pan down to the cowl in Bruce’s hand, then cut to Metropolis after Superman’s battle with Zod.
  • Night has fallen over the rubble of downtown Metropolis, and whose silhouette do we see surveying the damage?

http://cinefantastiqueonline.com/wp-...ploads/161.jpg

Astro13Zombie 11-22-2013 09:18 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
I don't want to sound like I'm ****ting on your idea...

but no
PLEASE NO

charl_huntress 11-22-2013 09:19 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
I don't think it would work. Nolan's Bats is too grounded. There's not enough leeway for any thing unreal like flying men in skintight body suits.

Fallen Angel 11-22-2013 09:24 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
you put effort into posting that but I got one word.


Nah

ЯɘvlveR 11-22-2013 09:27 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
too late. besides, nolan wanted no part of that. gotta wonder though if nolan had gotten ben to agree to direct mos, would tdkr been a different film? diffrent enough that it would have fit in perfectly into the MoSverse?

ЯɘvlveR 11-22-2013 09:30 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by charl_huntress (Post 27265129)
I don't think it would work. Nolan's Bats is too grounded. There's not enough leeway for any thing unreal like flying men in skintight body suits.

eh. have you seen anything the flying batlobster in reality? i haven't. i think the worst thing about those films is bats kinda sucked at fighting.

Boom 11-22-2013 09:31 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
So Nolan spends three films building up the idea that Batman could inspire anybody to stand up and take back their city, only for BvS to come along and say, "Just kidding. We need the real Batman."

You completely and utterly undermine the whole point of Nolan's conclusion with that scenario. Couple that with the fact that both Nolan and Bale have moved on, I give this a great resounding NO.

charl_huntress 11-22-2013 09:37 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ЯɘvlveR (Post 27265187)
eh. have you seen anything the flying batlobster in reality? i haven't. i think the worst thing about those films is bats kinda sucked at fighting.

lol...strangely I've seen prototypes for all sorts of flying objects. The Navy is big on trying strange ****. :woot:

Caekzor 11-22-2013 09:41 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
I thought we were past all this. :funny: :doh:

DChero 11-22-2013 09:41 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
I'm not going to jump on the OP because he's right with the element that matters the most, the audience's affection for Bale's Batman.

I'm happy that we have a new Batman. I'm happy that Ben Affleck cast as the new Batman. With that said, I won't act as if WB wouldn't make more money if they included Bale's Batman in the sequel to "Man of Steel." We'd already have a $2 billion thread.

InJustice 11-22-2013 09:46 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
I make these points in the link, but I wanted to share my ideas on how you could bridge Dark Knight Rises and Man of Steel through a 20-minute prologue in the MOS sequel (similar to the Krypton sequence in the first movie).

That's what these bullets are:

After the events of Rises, Bruce has seemingly retired to live out the “clean slate” with Selina.

This was already implied in TDKR anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
While these lovebirds are gallivanting across the European continent, Bruce is still keeping tabs on Blake as he tries to fill the Batman’s shoes.

What's the point of this? The fundamental point of TDKR is that Bruce has learned to let go of Gotham and anything pertaining to the Batman persona. By keeping track, Bruce Wayne is showing that he is unable to let go of his trauma, which contradicts Nolan's intended story.

By doing this, you're creating a plot hole for Bruce's character arc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Crime and lawlessness are at an all time high as Gotham is essentially a post-apocalyptic wasteland thanks to Bane and Talia.

How does this make sense? By saying this, you're negating the fact that Batman and the police waged war on crime (and Bane) and came out as winners. This negation, completely disregards the fact that order has been restored in Gotham and that corruption is at an all-time low.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Blake has decided not to don the mantle of the Bat, but has taken on the identity of Nightwing to protect the city.

Ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Unfortunately for Blake, he’s in way over his head. Having never properly trained to be a vigilante superhero, Nightwing is having a hard time keeping Gotham under control.

Ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Since Batman eradicated all organized crime two movies ago, the crime Nightwing encounters is more decentralized and harder to tamp down.

How?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Also, the “freaks” — folks like Killer Croc, Poison Ivy, Man-Bat, etc. — are all coming out of the woodwork. Perhaps as a result of the radioactive fallout from the bomb?

No. Just no. If you're going to create supervillains, you might as well give them powers like what Zod and Kryptonians had in Man of Steel. This gives rise to another fundamental issue: the tonal differences between Man of Steel and TDKT. Nolan intended his trilogy to be devoid of other superheroes and supervillains.

By doing this, you create another contradiction in the story where you have to explain why realism accounted for Bane, Ra's Al Ghul and to be essentially human, while the villains you mentioned are suddenly allowed powers that contradict realism. That being said, it's better to reboot Batman as a fantastical story in which all these villains exist as they should be, superpowered villains, instead of tonal differences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Upon seeing his fair city fall to worse ruin than even during the No Man’s Land of Bane’s reign of terror, Bruce returns to Gotham to help train his protege. For real this time.

Again, this contradicts Bruce's character arc. You do realize he let go of the Batman persona and he got over his trauma?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
The problem is that the return of Bruce royally pisses off Blake. You see, for the last year or so, Nightwing was operating under the pretense that Bruce was dead.

Again, this contradicts Bruce's character arc. You do realize he let go of the Batman persona and he got over his trauma?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Now that he knows Bruce was alive the whole time (and left him alone to fend for himself in a post-nuclear-Gotham), he’s none too happy about it, and leaves the Cave.

Again, this contradicts Bruce's character arc. You do realize he let go of the Batman persona and he got over his trauma?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Though the two are estranged, Blake continues to prowl the streets as Nightwing because Bruce is reluctant to put the suit back on.

Again, this contradicts Bruce's character arc. You do realize he let go of the Batman persona and he got over his trauma?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Since his previous Batsuits have all been destroyed, Bruce is fashioning a new one (to resemble a Lee Bermejo-like design, natch) when all of the power in the Batcave goes out, and Zod’s message is played over the Bat-computer.

Again, the fundamental issue is that Nolan himself said there are NO other superheroes. Tonally, this does not make any sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Pan down to the cowl in Bruce’s hand, then cut to Metropolis after Superman’s battle with Zod.

I'll just repeat this: "the fundamental issue is that Nolan himself said there are NO other superheroes."

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265105)
Night has fallen over the rubble of downtown Metropolis, and whose silhouette do we see surveying the damage?

Again, if Nolan intended for his trilogy to exist in realism, then what happened in Metropolis completely contradicts this tone. MOS does operate in realism, but the fundamental issue is that Nolan himself said there are NO other superheroes.

Can we just freaking leave TDKT alone? Jeez.

Astro13Zombie 11-22-2013 09:49 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by InJustice (Post 27265273)
Can we just freaking leave TDKT alone? Jeez.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat...xiety_disorder

The Riddler 11-22-2013 09:51 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
OP, are you high?

i'm sorry, but not only is this a terrible idea, it doesn't even make sense.

smallville fan 11-22-2013 09:57 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Oh great, not this debate again.:whatever::doh:

I thought this topic was put to rest the minute the Affleck casting was announced and that people would move on from the "Bale for MOS 2" debate.

Adamantium 11-22-2013 10:14 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
,...............

shauner111 11-22-2013 10:43 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Don't be so mean guys. Yes, it's a little late in the game for a topic like this but i was one of the main people on this board back in the spring/summer, coming up with very similar ways to bring Bale back.

Now i feel different as i honor the end of the trilogy and see that MOS has to work with a different batman. Im also down with Batfleck.

But for old times sake, sure...

All you would have to do is bring Bruce back in Gotham when he sees the Zod announcement + all the chaos in Metropolis. Blake is Nightwing and the city in some ways has a higher spirit within their people since Batman's death. They visit his monument every chance they get too. But at the same time the city is slowly going back to the days of organized crime. You can even say that Arkham patients are in the process of being rounded up by Gordon and Blake's Nightwing (see the Rises novelization).

Say Bruce comes back and has left Selina in Italy. He's not sure where he stands with her anymore. But one thing is for sure...he's paranoid as hell about this "Superman". He doesnt trust that Blake has enough training to take care of Gotham AND a possible alien threat. This insults Blake to no end and doesn't want any part of Bruce's obsession with Clark especially since Nightwing is on Superman's side. He likes his way of doing things. He's also not sure if this vigilante business is for him anymore so he leaves the cave.

Bruce sees that Gotham is alone but he's not willing to return as the Batman anymore. For him, it's in his past. Until we see some TDKReturns moments where he keeps getting nightmares which include his parents. His paranoia increases. Fox has retired since so he's all alone and this is where "the world's greatest detective" really starts to shine. He's semi-retired (as the new rumors state) and he's created bat-drones to patrol the city in the year that's passed since the events of MOS.

When he decides to become batman again, in a new suit (created by HIM)...a more traditional batmobile (created by himself too), it's all because of Superman. He draws him out.

Im starting to believe that this idea was created around the time MOS was dropping or a little earlier. And they were courting Bale for it. He said no so they went with Affleck and started building ways to create new things for a more Kingdom Come meets Animated Series direction such as the suit and "Dick Grayson"/Diana Prince. You never know maybe the bat-drones were created with the premise of the story when they were throwing as much money as they could at Bale too. It's not hard to see the connection. I mean...we have a early 40s Bruce Wayne who is semi-retired with a young adult Nightwing.

ЯɘvlveR 11-22-2013 11:01 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
shauner

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln...cm2fo1_400.gif

shauner111 11-22-2013 11:06 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ЯɘvlveR (Post 27265635)

:lmao: exactly man

Where's Rodrigo and Shikamaru when you need them! This feels like im back in June.

shauner111 11-22-2013 11:14 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
But honestly, that was me having some fun again since the OP resurrected the concept.

But let's be for real. This is never going to happen now and im glad i have that franchise as a tight trilogy. The Batfleck stuff is controversial, not everybody is on board yet, but I am. It could have been interesting but i think way too bizarre seeing Bale in a different suit. Especially a suit that's grey and black from Snyder with all his CG he likes to add in his movies....with that 3D element. Sooo weird. Drones seem to be a different world too but i guess that part could have been cool coming from Bale, acting all obsessive.

But what's done is done. Im eager to see Cavill and Affleck looking like two jacked up monsters fighting each other. New bat villains, new everything.

J.Drangal 11-22-2013 11:24 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shauner111 (Post 27265551)
It's not hard to see the connection. I mean...we have a early 40s Bruce Wayne who is semi-retired with a young adult Nightwing.

I'm totally against connecting TDKT with MOS, but the way you're developping your thing, I start to ask myself too if WB wasn't planning to do it this way. All the element we know for the moment are there. The older Batman, a young adult sidekick,... I remember they were saying Superman was the first hero of this universe, and taking Batman from TDKT, in the last installement he was starting to be just an urban legend before his return, so it was still possible to play with a Batman already there but operating in the shadow.
Good call, but even if WB was really up for a similar approach, I still think it's not a good idea. This trilogy was a sort of elseworld, and giving a continuity to it is the best manner to destroy the thematics treated in it.

shauner111 11-22-2013 11:37 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by J.Drangal (Post 27265783)
I'm totally against connecting TDKT with MOS, but the way you're developping your thing, I start to ask myself too if WB wasn't planning to do it this way. All the element we know for the moment are there. The older Batman, a young adult sidekick,... I remember they were saying Superman was the first hero of this universe, and taking Batman from TDKT, in the last installement he was starting to be just an urban legend before his return, so it was still possible to play with a Batman already there but operating in the shadow.
Good call, but even if WB was really up for a similar approach, I still think it's not a good idea. This trilogy was a sort of elseworld, and giving a continuity to it is the best manner to destroy the thematics treated in it.

I agree, for sure. It's best left alone and it gives them ways to do more solo films for Batman. They can also smoothly introduce all these different sci-fi elements to Bats without explaining why Bruce has to come to Gotham, etc.

But i just think it's true. Going after Bale was all about money but Goyer had the premise down for a while so that's why i think they went for him and probably didn't mind rebooting because they could stick with the same premise. It just works for Bale and Affleck too, with some adjustments to make it more comic booky (which fits MOS more obviously).

I bet they would have left the solo movie idea on the shelf and just used Bale/JGL and maybe somebody like Oldman for a cameo. Had him come back cuz of Superman, falling out with Blake, creates drones to patrol Gotham, leaves for Metropolis to finally put a new suit on. It's rather easy. You do the same things with Lex, Lois, Diana whatever. Keep Bale as Batman for team-up movies only. Done.

But now they have a way to do so much more so they could care less.

RakuMon 11-22-2013 11:46 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Just wanna clarify that I'm not trying to stir up old debates. If you click thru the link, you'll see that I'm on board with Affleck and the trilogy as a standalone.

But as shaunner pointed out, the rumors around the project seem to point toward the kind of Bats that could easily have been Bale. Also, from a business and peripheral standpoint, Nolan's DNA was all over MOS -- from the title fonts to the branding to the Zimmer score -- that a cohesion between the two seemingly makes sense.

That's all. Again, and for the record, I'm all for Affleck and revere TDKT as a standalone accomplishment. It was just too hard to ignore the connections and what could've been after hearing about the potential direction of the sequel.

Krumm 11-22-2013 11:49 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
This just shouldn't have its own thread.

RakuMon 11-22-2013 11:51 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
It's a missed opportunity is all.

InJustice 11-22-2013 11:56 PM

Re: Nolanís Batman Should Be in the Man of Steel Sequel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RakuMon (Post 27265855)
Just wanna clarify that I'm not trying to stir up old debates. If you click thru the link, you'll see that I'm on board with Affleck and the trilogy as a standalone.

But as shaunner pointed out, the rumors around the project seem to point toward the kind of Bats that could easily have been Bale. Also, from a business and peripheral standpoint, Nolan's DNA was all over MOS -- from the title fonts to the branding to the Zimmer score -- that a cohesion between the two seemingly makes sense.

That's all. Again, and for the record, I'm all for Affleck and revere TDKT as a standalone accomplishment. It was just too hard to ignore the connections and what could've been after hearing about the potential direction of the sequel.

But the problem isn't that they should be standalone projects. It's that the connections you bring up compromise the story of TDKT. Which means that on a fundamental basis, the two movies are NOT compatible (If BB/TDK had implied that there was a larger DC universe, then maybe). The burden of proof would fall on you and any other TDKR-MOS fan to prove how these two films could be connected without compromise.

You may think it's a missed opportunity, but from a story standpoint they make no sense and defeats the trilogy, in the sense that Bruce Wayne was given a catharsis in the finale of his character arc, and that's completely negated for the sake of making a connection between TDKR and MOS. In this case, Batman was treated as an end result of Wayne's depression and trauma. Also, Bruce Wayne would have to be ultra intelligent to pull off the drones, which is something Bale/Nolan's Batman wasn't. So it's an opportunity to start fresh and provide what could be another definitive take on Batman.


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