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Old 12-28-2006, 05:21 PM   #82
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

Originally Posted by DarthCyclopsRLZ
1 - Take the Scott/Xavier relationship...

Seemed pretty much one-sided to me.

We got Cyke talking to a comatose Xavier. Then WHAT exactly?

His 'some more than others' (or whatever) line at the end of X2?? Would be touching if if the prof didn't give up on Cyke after EIGHT f*****n months.

I won't use this last one as an argument per se, but I'll throw it out there anyway. I firmly believe that Xavier never said a f*****n thing about the voices in Cyke's heads and how dangerous going to Alkali was because he liked the idea of the 'prodigal daughter's miraculous return to life' better than the 'having to deal with the weepy emo broken son' thingy.

Harsh, yes. Anyone's guess, I know. Still, there's more going on for than against such a theory.

Think about it. He's willing to DIE to for a bloodthirsty/homicidal Jean/Phoenix. But he can't be bothered to not write Cyke off or shed ONE f****n tear? Rotflmao.
Well, if you're talking about the "Scott's a changed man. He took Jean's death so hard", then yea, you're right. I agree with you. In the commentary, they mention how people don't understand that it's Jean haunting him. Well, if they did a better job of portraying that, audiences wouldn't have a problem with it.

A better way to have written it would be:

Xavier: "Perhaps you'd take my place someday."

Storm: "But, Scott's..."

Xavier: "Yes, Scott is next in line to take my place. But he's in a bad place in his life right now. He took Jean's death so hard. I feel the same pain he does everyday that goes by without her. I know that Scott will pull through, but right now, I think we all need to be here to support him."

An actual dialogue between Scott and Xavier to show that Scott is being haunted by Jean, and not just sitting in his room crying over his memories, would also have gone a long way.

As far as showing no compassion towards Scott's death, well, I think a lot of that comes from the fact that nobody is quite sure what even happened to Scott. Nobody knew that Cyclops left to Alkali Lake, except a hunch Wolverine had when he found his glasses. Nobody had the slightest clue until Wolverine said "I think she killed Scott.", and by that point, the situation was a little too severe to be sitting around shedding tears for Cyclops.

I still think he got the screw job in X-Men: The Last Stand, but I don't think that Xavier neccesarily just wrote him off.

Originally Posted by DarthCyclopsRLZ
2 - The no-nonsense leader

He talks big but fails at about the worst possible moments. Due to bad writing, I know, but still...
Where exactly does he fail?

The conflict that the team faces in the movies is not only no worse than any conflict in the comics, but also a neccesary one. We need to see our heroes in a conflict. It's why Batman and Spiderman and everyone else plow through the regular criminals so quickly, but when it's time to go up against Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Joker, or whoever, it gets tougher. Because in order to see these villians as a real threat, we need to see the conflict they provide to our heroes. That's why the arguements about how Toad beat up Storm, or Deathstrike beat up Cyclops, or whatever, are null and void. Those are neccesary struggles. We can't just see our heroes plowing through the villians with no effort.

Cyclops didn't "fail". He faced the same struggle that all the other heroes did. At the end of the day, he's STILL the one that took out Magneto in X-Men, not Wolverine, not Storm, not some random fluck of Magneto tripping over his own shoelaces. Cyclops. So much for failure, eh?

Originally Posted by DarthCyclopsRLZ
3 - The 'fry him' / bad landing argument

I'm sorry, but I obstinately maintain they can be used as argument. Why? The so-called 'screw-ups' were just there so that another character would get a one-liner at Cyclops' expense (bad writing, I know, but it's still there).

I never said it made him a failure. Christ, anyone but a world-class pilot would've managed to not f*** up that water landing (which Cyke didn't really do). Still, it came out as if Logan had any right to be righteously whiny about the thing.

And that 'fry him' line. There's nothing indicating that Cyke didn't KNOW exactly what he was doing. He might very well have thought 'if we go down, so do you, old man'. It's just that Mags get a decent one-liner while Cyke doesn't. Also, the writers never explore dCyke's reaction to the Liberty Island debacle. It sure as hell LOOKS bad.

All I'm saying is that the writers don't care to make him look bad (without bothering to explain, really) just so others would look good/better.

Think about it. I like to think those examples don't qualify at nit picking.

X1: The way he gets PWNED at the train station and at Liberty Island by Toad. Little more than to prove that movieverse Toad is an actual threat to the good guys.

Fine, so Jean and Storm get PWNED by Toad, too. Still, he goes down first. Oh yeah, and Storm gets to fry Toad. I'll admit Jean gets screwed over real bad in X1, but she gets a serious boost in X2 and becomes next to invincible while Scott...

X2: Getting his a$$$ kicked by Deathstrike. Going down in ONE HIT just to set up the villain for Logan's big fight. At least Logan didn't get a legit victory (bwahahahaha), but still...

One could start arguing over the Scott/Jean fight, but both were holding back, so we can't get much out of that one. *shrugs*

X3: Getting 'incapacitated' offscreen by Phoenix to prove she's evil.

Come on, I'm not making up the whole 'Cyke is everyone else's b**ch and goes down first' vibe we get from the movies. We might argue over the degree, but, come on. He's just there to get PWNED every time.

Hell, he's pretty much the ONLY good guy who never redeems himself in battle. That last one isn't opinion. It's FACT.
You say those things were set up so Logan could get the better of Scott, but that's the dinamic between the 2, going back and forth with each other. Cyclops also did get the last word on a few other instances as well, so it's not like Cyclops was just toilet paper to wipe Logan's ass with. He gave it right back to Wolverine just as much, and got the last word just as many times.

Wolverine: "Hey, I'm not the one who gave the train station a new sunroof."

Cyclops: "No, you're the one who stabbed Rogue through the chest."

Wolverine: "Your bike needs gas."

Cyclops: "Fill 'er up."

As far as how he got "pwned" by Toad and Deathstrike:

Toad caught him completely off guard. And he didn't exactly get pwned, Toad just knocked off his visor. Again, it's part of the neccesary conflict.

With Deathstrike, well, I would EXPECT Deathstrike to whoop Cyclops' ass. Yes, Cyclops might be good at hand to hand combat, but he doesn't have anything special going for him in that department. Deathstrike is physically enhanced to be a superior physical specimen. He was knocked cold when, once again, he was caught off guard, thanks to her healing factor after he had already taken her out. Hardly an arguement towards his incompetance.

And again, he does redeem himself. He's the one who takes out Magneto, the ultimate villian, in X-Men...

Originally Posted by DarthCyclopsRLZ
4 - Love/compassion thingy

Not much I can say about that one, really. It's just that the whole 'failure' angle seem to overshadow pretty much everything else. Agreeing with ya 110% here.
I don't think there's much of a failure angle to overshadow it. I think there's a neccesary sense of conflict, and Cyclops being a hero, has to face that conflict. There's no failure to speak of.

Originally Posted by DarthCyclopsRLZ
5 - Believing/fighting for the dream

Okay, he believes in the dream. Every other X-man/woman but Logan (at first) does that too. Big deal.

See no. 3 for the fighting part. Everyone else does it. AND BETTER AT THAT!!!!!!!
How many people take out Magneto in the trilogy?

Cyclops, and Beast. That's it. Magneto is kind of the main villian throughout the trilogy, so the fact that Cyclops is one of only 2 people to take out the main villian shows that he handles himself rather well. He's also the one who took out Sabretooth. Sabretooth whooped all up on Wolverine, and it was Cyclops (with a little aid from Jean) that took out Sabretooth. So chalk up another villian taken out by Cyclops.

Cyclops got taken out by Deathstrike, when caught off guard, by a physically superior being. Hardly being bad at fighting.

Meanwhile, Wolverine got his ass handed to him by Mystique, who should not be able to hold a candle to Wolverine in physical, hand to hand combat. She may be good at it, like Cyclops, but like Deathstrike, Wolverine is a physically superior being, enhanced for superior hand to hand combat. Wolverine should not have been beaten by her.

Toad was hardly a fight. It was a long tongue catching Cyclops off guard and ripping off his visor.

So for Cyclops, there's actually a 2-1 W-L record in fights he's been in.

Taking out Sabretooth, and Magneto, and getting taken out by Deathstrike.

Wolverine got beaten by Sabretooth twice in the same movie, as well as by Mystique in the same movie, and didn't beat her until he used underhanded tactics to catch her off guard (kind of how Cyclops had to be defeated). Wolverine got handled pretty well by Deathstrike, before again having to resort to dirty tactics. And he whooped up on some mere humans and inferior mutants in his mansion and forest berserker rages, and a nameless, made up arm-regenerating mutant in the Alcatraz fight.

Storm got handled by Toad, before coming back and taking him out, and got handled by Callisto, before coming back and taking her out. Jean never had a fight, save for her little thingy with Toad. Beast whooped up on some nameless mutants, and took Magneto out from behind. Nightcrawler took out some White House guards.

I'd say Cyclops doesn't look all that bad really, having taken out Sabretooth and Magneto in the same film. He's not really made out to be a lesser fighter, or a failure at all.

Originally Posted by DarthCyclopsRLZ
Trust me, back in the X1 & X2 days, I did use to argue about how Cyke didn't get badly screwed over.

Cynism just took over.

Trust me, I do not want to get into a flame war with ya. You make actual sense when posting. I semi-agree on quite a few Cyke-related things, too. It's just that cynism thingy I mentioned.

It's just that we might never agree or give each other a single inch of ground over the 'How Cyke got treated' issue.

Still fun debating/arguing without throwing insults around, though.

Oh well.
I just don't see why you're so cynical. What's there is there. Cyclops is made out to be no more weaker than any of the other characters. Okay, so Wolverine gets more exposure in combat than Cyclops does, but let's face it, Wolverine is a superior fighting machine anyways.

There's nothing in the movies to show him as a failure. Where you see he fails at the worst possible moments, I don't even have any idea what you're talking about. It's not until X-Men: The Last Stand that he gets anything even close to a screw job, and unfortunatley it's the ultimate one in that film.

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