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Old 01-01-2007, 10:39 PM   #118
The Guard
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

Eh eh.

Don't get me wrong. I used to have similar thoughts back in the days.

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It's just that everything they got "right" (meh) is so f***** DILUTED that it almost becomes a joke.
Isn't EVERYTHING gotten right fairly "diluted" in the three films?

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1 - Take the Scott/Xavier relationship...

Seemed pretty much one-sided to me.
A bit.

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His 'some more than others' (or whatever) line at the end of X2?? Would be touching if if the prof didn't give up on Cyke after EIGHT f*****n months.
Who says Xavier gave up on him? That's never indicated. He just didnt know if Cyclops would be able to lead the school because of the impact Jean's death had on him. And there is, I believe, a precedent for Xavier doubting Scott's leadership in the comics. Hell, there have been times when Scott himself doubts himself.

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He talks big but fails at about the worst possible moments. Due to bad writing, I know, but still...
In the biggest moment, when he could not fail, Cyclops SUCCEEDS. Being taken out by Lady Deathstrike is not a "biggest" moment, and while he does help cause the dam incident, he's being controlled at that point.

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3 - The 'fry him' / bad landing argument

I'm sorry, but I obstinately maintain they can be used as argument. Why? The so-called 'screw-ups' were just there so that another character would get a one-liner at Cyclops' expense (bad writing, I know, but it's still there).
It's not bad writing. It's called levity, and its used to lighten a serious situation. Every superhero film has these moments. Magneto taking a shot at the X-Men is nothing new. And frankly, if Storm HAD fried Magneto...even if the X-Men had died...MAGNETO WOULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED. So Cyclops was right to make that call. He made a split-second decision, and it seems he was correct.

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I never said it made him a failure. Christ, anyone but a world-class pilot would've managed to not f*** up that water landing (which Cyke didn't really do). Still, it came out as if Logan had any right to be righteously whiny about the thing.
It's just a moment of levity, to show Wolverine for who he is in the filmverse, and that's someone who takes potshots at Cyclops. People read far too much into it. It doesn't mean Cyclops is a weak character, it means Logan is an *******.

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And that 'fry him' line. There's nothing indicating that Cyke didn't KNOW exactly what he was doing. He might very well have thought 'if we go down, so do you, old man'. It's just that Mags get a decent one-liner while Cyke doesn't.

Also, the writers never explored Cyke's reaction to the Liberty Island debacle. It sure as hell LOOKS bad.
Exactly. But that's a writing issue. Not an issue with Cyclops' character choices, or his portrayal.

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All I'm saying is that the writers don't care to make him look bad (without bothering to explain, really) just so others would look good/better.
Or maybe they just needed moments of levity, and those moments came mostly from Wolverine in the movie.

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Think about it. I like to think those examples don't qualify at nit picking.
But ALL the X-Men look inept or inexperienced at some point in X-MEN. Even Wolverine. Storm is owned. Jean is owned. Xavier "fails" to stop Magneto at the train station, and is then taken out of action. Twice. And Wolverine is taken out three times in X-MEN alone.

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X1: The way he gets PWNED at the train station and at Liberty Island by Toad. Little more than to prove that movieverse Toad is an actual threat to the good guys.
Not really. That scene shows several things.

1. Toad's abilities.

2. Cyclops' POWER.

3. Human reaction to mutants

4. The strategic nature of Magneto's plans.

5. Sets up Cyclops without his visor, so that when it happens at the end, it has some impact.

In the same scene, Storm gets "owned" by Sabertooth for the most part. And Wolverine gets "owned" by Magneto. So does Rogue. It's not like the writers only shat on Cyclops at the train station.

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Fine, so Jean and Storm get PWNED by Toad, too. Still, he goes down first.
So? Maybe that's so he can be UP first storywise, to blow the door open and aid Jean when Toad slimes her and she's, you know, freaking out and suffocating.

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Oh yeah, and Storm gets to fry Toad. I'll admit Jean gets screwed over real bad in X1, but she gets a serious boost in X2 and becomes next to invincible while Scott...
How does Jean get "screwed over real bad" in X-MEN?

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X2: Getting his a$$$ kicked by Deathstrike. Going down in ONE HIT just to set up the villain for Logan's big fight. At least Logan didn't get a legit victory (bwahahahaha), but still...
You forget that before he goes down with one hit...he takes out Deathstrke with a well-placed optic blast. How many hits should he have lasted for? He thought she was down for good, and she surprised him with healing abilities. He goes down so he can be kidnapped, so he and Xavier are taken out of the picture, forcing other X-Men to step up. That's not a weakness of Cyclops' character. It's a strength of Deathstrike's.

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One could start arguing over the Scott/Jean fight, but both were holding back, so we can't get much out of that one. *shrugs*
Cyclops wasn't holding back much. But then, he was fighting Phoenix. He displayed a TON of power in that sequence. Hardly one that makes the character look inept or weak.

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Come on, I'm not making up the whole 'Cyke is everyone else's b**ch and goes down first' vibe we get from the movies. We might argue over the degree, but, come on. He's just there to get PWNED every time.
In the movies, Wolverine gets owned by Magneto twice, Mystique, Deathstrike, and then owned again by Phoenix in X3. Cyclops isn't the only one who people treat like crap and beat up on. Yes, Cyclops takes a lot of crap from Wolverine. But that's a comic book thing. He doesn't always attack Wolverine for insulting him childishly.

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Hell, he's pretty much the ONLY good guy who never redeems himself in battle.
Except for in X-MEN, when he takes out Sabertooth and Magneto. What "battle" was there to redeem himself in in X2? And he "died" in X3, so you can't blame him for not redeeming himself in battle then.

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Trust me, back in the X1 & X2 days, I did use to argue about how Cyke didn't get badly screwed over.

Cynism just took over.

Trust me, I do not want to get into a flame war with ya. You make actual sense when posting. I semi-agree on quite a few Cyke-related things, too. It's just that cynism thingy I mentioned.
I don't think it's that he doesn't get screwed over. He does, in terms of screentime and character fate and so forth. But he's portrayed well.

We saw Cyclops as a superb leader in X-MEN. Problem is, we didn't see it after that. X2 and X3 showed us more of his emotional side, and not so much of his leadership skills. But that doesn't change the fact that X-MEN portrayed him as one hell of a leader for such a young man in such incredibly dangerous situations.

Anyway, the character Cyclops has nothing to apologize for. And the writing of him can be "redeemed". The way to "redeem" Cyclops in future films (if they happen) is simple. Have HIM try to redeem himself, and make that his arc. That's something from the comics, a complete obsession with succeeding and hating his failures.

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Last edited by The Guard; 01-01-2007 at 10:42 PM.
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