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Old 01-02-2007, 03:16 AM   #119
DarthCyclopsRLZ
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Default Re: Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

Oh, great. Just had to track me down in the Cyke thread, did ya?

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Originally Posted by The Guard
Eh eh.
Isn't EVERYTHING gotten right fairly "diluted" in the three films?
Yes, very. Appalingly so. I'm fairly certain I've said it numerous times in other threads.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
Who says Xavier gave up on him? That's never indicated.
Neither is the exact opposite. Also, both Logan and Storm seemed more concerned about him leaving/breaking down.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
He just didnt know if Cyclops would be able to lead the school because of the impact Jean's death had on him. And there is, I believe, a precedent for Xavier doubting Scott's leadership in the comics. Hell, there have been times when Scott himself doubts himself.
I know. I'm a Cyke fan. Doubting himself and breaking only to pick himself up (if only partially) is the story of Scott Summers' life. They should've tackled that right after X1. But noooo, we got him in some sort of denial over how bad things went down at Liberty (arguably the Train Station too - he seemed pissed, but not quite overwhelmed with guilt)...

I'm not saying Xavier was WRONG to dismiss him as team leader. He just didn't seem that concerned about his recovery.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
In the biggest moment, when he could not fail, Cyclops SUCCEEDS.
You mean shooting an old man in the back and opening his eyes to blast the hairball after Logan and Jean did all the work?

Funny you said when he could not'. I mean, seriously, how could he have screwed it up at that point?


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Originally Posted by The Guard
It's not bad writing. It's called levity, and its used to lighten a serious situation. Every superhero film has these moments. Magneto taking a shot at the X-Men is nothing new.
My point was that Cyke seemed to get the short end of the stick during said moments. Funny coincidence, really.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
And frankly, if Storm HAD fried Magneto...even if the X-Men had died...MAGNETO WOULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED. So Cyclops was right to make that call. He made a split-second decision, and it seems he was correct.
Agree that Cyke made the right call. I pointed out in the old thread that it was in character for Cyke to blow up a battlefield to take down his enemies. It's just that we don't get the vibe that anyone took it seriously in the movie. Nor does the writer/directors made an effort to make it so that the audience should have. I mean, christ, a character basically suggests a "we all go down together" scenario and a whole 5 seconds is spent on it. Rotflmao.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
It's just a moment of levity, to show Wolverine for who he is in the filmverse, and that's someone who takes potshots at Cyclops. People read far too much into it. It doesn't mean Cyclops is a weak character, it means Logan is an *******.
Agree with the 'too much' part. Still believe it can be used as a 'bias for Wolvie' argument, though.

About the ******* part, don't I know that, lol.

Hey, I'm a Wolvie fan. I pointed out that in other threads that the writers ditched the whole samourai-ish angle of his persona and turned him into an obnoxious a$$$hole.

Once again, it's the timing of said 'potshots' and how they were presented. Comicverse Cyke would've glared at Wolvie or told him to f*** off. Comicverse Wolvie would've most likely just laughed. But nooooo. We get this instead.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
Or maybe they just needed moments of levity, and those moments came mostly from Wolverine in the movie.
At the expense of Cyke, that's the whole point I'm making. The whole Scott/Logan dynamic is the comic is that they usually tell each other to f*** off and end up with somewhat of a draw.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
But ALL the X-Men look inept or inexperienced at some point in X-MEN. Even Wolverine. Storm is owned. Jean is owned. Xavier "fails" to stop Magneto at the train station, and is then taken out of action. Twice. And Wolverine is taken out three times in X-MEN alone.
Okay, Nell2ThaIzZay said something about Cyke not being any worse than any other mutant.

That's the whole point. We don't ever get the impression that he did a better job than anyone else would've done as leader.

We Cyke fans aren't asking for him to save the day and beat the f*** out of every villain. It's just that whether he's a better field leader than ANY other character in the movieverse is open to debate. Like, A LOT.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
Not really. That scene shows several things.

1. Toad's abilities.

2. Cyclops' POWER.

3. Human reaction to mutants

4. The strategic nature of Magneto's plans.

5. Sets up Cyclops without his visor, so that when it happens at the end, it has some impact.
Ok, so it does. See next entry.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
In the same scene, Storm gets "owned" by Sabertooth for the most part. And Wolverine gets "owned" by Magneto. So does Rogue. It's not like the writers only shat on Cyclops at the train station.
Cyke's job was to WATCH STORM'S BACK and essentially be the lookout boy. He failed. Badly. Also, Xavier at least gets to TRY to stop Mags. He fails because Mags threatened to kill people. Not because he didn't see some creep crawling up a wall. Quite the difference.

Also, Storm does get rid of Sabertooth. And Wolvie, well, he CAN'T win against Mags. EVER. How the hell can it be used as a comparison? I don't like it, but Cyke got shafted the worst in said scene.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
So? Maybe that's so he can be UP first storywise, to blow the door open and aid Jean when Toad slimes her and she's, you know, freaking out and suffocating.
Yeah, but he wouldn't have to aid her had the team not been divided (Logan's fault, but Cyke didn't manage to get him to stay put) and taken down so easily. Not quite his fault once again, but had they not gotten gotten caught off guard, it would've been to his credit.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
How does Jean get "screwed over real bad" in X-MEN?
Exactly WHAT does she do? See your own comment from above, too.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
You forget that before he goes down with one hit...he takes out Deathstrke with a well-placed optic blast. How many hits should he have lasted for? He thought she was down for good, and she surprised him with healing abilities.
Sigh. I've already said that taking down 4 opponents in like 20 seconds was roxor. It's just that the way he goes down seemed rather weak compared to his comic counterpart, not to mention THEY SHOT A LONGER VERSION OF SAID SCENE. I'm not saying Cyke should've WON the fight. Christ, even in the novel he at least TRIED to fight DeathStrike hand-to-hand. I was complaining about the directorial choices of said scene.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
He goes down so he can be kidnapped, so he and Xavier are taken out of the picture, forcing other X-Men to step up.
So we agree he's basically a plot tool. I don't like it. You don't mind. Fair enough.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
That's not a weakness of Cyclops' character. It's a strength of Deathstrike's.
Sure, I'll give you that one. Could've been anyone else, in that room. But it's still at his expense.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
Cyclops wasn't holding back much.
Really? Somehow I think Stryker would give him a specific order to hold back and not blast the dam to pieces. That first blast aimed at Mags and Mystique wasn't much, really. A semi-hole in a wall? And the way he knocked over that jeep... At full or near full-power, he would've done much more serious damage. Like, ya know, cleaving it in two for starters.

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Originally Posted by The Guard
But then, he was fighting Phoenix. He displayed a TON of power in that sequence. Hardly one that makes the character look inept or weak.
Didn't I write that I wasn't going to use said battle as an argument for "Cyke got shafted". Also posted on the old thread that this battle was the one that made him look the best in X1 and X2 because he keeps picking himself up and faster than Jean. Also, we don't actually know whether it was Cyke's or the Phoenix' power that damaged the damn. Thus the whole 'me not using it as argument' part.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
In the movies, Wolverine gets owned by Magneto twice, Mystique, Deathstrike, and then owned again by Phoenix in X3. Cyclops isn't the only one who people treat like crap and beat up on.
You forgot Sabertooth did so twice in X1, actually.

Still, my point was that he always gets taken down first and FAST. I know it has to do with writing and how easily the good guys would win if he didn't get taken down everytime. Still, it annoys.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
Yes, Cyclops takes a lot of crap from Wolverine. But that's a comic book thing. He doesn't always attack Wolverine for insulting him childishly.
Yeah. I still think they didn't quite get it right. Somewhat, I'll concede. Still not right IMO.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
Except for in X-MEN, when he takes out Sabertooth and Magneto. What "battle" was there to redeem himself in in X2? And he "died" in X3, so you can't blame him for not redeeming himself in battle then.
The whole point was that it's somewhat unfair that he doesn't get to.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
I don't think it's that he doesn't get screwed over. He does, in terms of screentime and character fate and so forth.
Thank you for at least admitting that.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
But he's portrayed well.
In the sense that he is what we got in the first ten issues of the comicbook? Sure. But then again, most characters were little more than cardboard cut-outs back then.

As was said above, they just didn't spend much (aka more than 2 minutes) dealing with the whole self-doubting angsty angle of the persona, which, IMO, far outweighs the boyscout angle.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
We saw Cyclops as a superb leader in X-MEN. Problem is, we didn't see it after that. X2 and X3 showed us more of his emotional side, and not so much of his leadership skills. But that doesn't change the fact that X-MEN portrayed him as one hell of a leader for such a young man in such incredibly dangerous situations.
IMO, what they showed us in X1 was "he did OK, considering". The point is that comicverse Cyke he's a GOOD leader. Not PERFECT, but better than f****n OK. And whether we got that in X1 is pretty much open to debate.


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Originally Posted by The Guard
Anyway, the character Cyclops has nothing to apologize for.
Fair enough. Still, he doesn't have much to be proud of. Comicverse Cyke would keep count and lose sleep over it. He'd blame himself for the professor's capture and Jean's death and go completely insane. Maybe that's what they were trying to convey in X3 (Ah! as if!) but all we got was a 'EMO - Jean is gone' vibe, a 'voices in head' arc and a four lines-long discussion with Logan in the hall...

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Originally Posted by The Guard
And the writing of him can be "redeemed". The way to "redeem" Cyclops in future films (if they happen) is simple. Have HIM try to redeem himself, and make that his arc. That's something from the comics, a complete obsession with succeeding and hating his failures.
I KNOW that. That's what I expected/hoped for X3.

Hell, that should've been his story arc ever since Liberty Island. See the 'losing sleep over it' comment.

That's why I don't think they got Cyke right. They just so happen to overlook something which you refered to (and rightfully so) as a COMPLETE OBSESSION.

I'm sorry, that's just too much of an omission for me.



Look, as I've said in another thread, one of the things I liked most about X-Men was/is the Cyke/Wolvie dynamic. Jean's not even in the equation, really.

Always saw them as two broken samourais who just happen the be two sides of the same coin.

It's just that movieverse Cyke essentially became Logan's foil and that one doesn't really have to look deep to find rather solid evidence indicating just that.

Fine, so I think the writers did that from day one. You don't. Fair enough.

Still, the whole him being screwed screentime and fate-wise should qualify as evidence for the foil thingy I just mentioned.

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